Brazzil

If that was a Brasilian flight-crew flying an American airplane somewhere in the United States, then turning-off their transponder thus becoming transparent to the ATC (air traffic control), so that they could test the capabilities of their brand spanking new airplane.

In the opposite direction is a Brasilian airliner flown by an American flight-crew trying to meet their daily schedules. And then as luck would have it, the shining American plane scrapes the Brasilian aircraft as the latter plunges to earth killing 154 innocent Americans, but the Brasilian crew lands safely somewhere in the US. That Brasilian crew would be sent faster to Guantanamo they you can say PECKERWOOD!

Moral of the story: Americans like to dish it out but don’t like to take it in…. The essence of hypocrisy, an American way of life. I rest my case!

Peace

Who really cares what nationality the pilots were? Does this lesson the tragedy for the families at all?
If the pilots were negligent then they should be punished appropriately.

Basically this tragedy gives whinning Brazilians another opportunity to bash a nation more well off than them thus once again taking their mind of there own murder deceit and mismanagement.

I wonder how his tragedy compares to the Britts shooting the inocent Brazilian in the subway in London?

It is a tragedy for everyone and Brazilian's quick over reaction and condemnation of the pilots is a tragedy for intercultural relations. The pilots seem to have made a mistake but so too do the BRAZILIAN air traffic controllers and perhaps officials from Embraer who should have gone over the flight plan with the pilots. IN any case, professional commercial pilots which all of those involved were, Brazilian and American, are not known for fool hardy moves or ignoring safety. And they would not do so especially with passengers on board. These type of planes are not meant to be aerodynamic but practical passenger transportation. No good pilot would ignore a flight plan or shut off a transponder. There is more to the story than what we already know. And people should wait until the investigation reveals all the facts before making asses of themselves as so many are. Mistakes happen. There are thousands throughout the history of aviation. It is unfortunate that people usually die in such cases.

If it was Brazilian pilots hiting an American airplane by accident. It wouldn't be no judgment but the death penalty and they would be accused of being terrorist and Bush would probably bomb Brasil. Can anyone argue with that?

We know, Americans don't care about anybody but themselves. Typical.

Ana Paulo

Your comment was that of an idiot, can eny body argue with that?

If a Brazilian flight struck an American flight over the US, the result would be the same as if an American flight struck a Brazilian flight over the US. There would be an investigation, and after conclusions had been reached, corrective action would be taken by the FAA to ensure that it wouldn't happen again. In either case, blame would not be assigned until all of the facts were in.

Since when are journalists expert in aviation ?
Just read the Brazilian medias including the above article : ALL Brazilian Journatists ARE EXPERTS in aviation !!!!!!!!

I am personally not an expert, but as stupid as I am your statement : "either the reporter was inside the Boeing and was able to eject on time" just show your own expertise !
Quite doubtful that the reporter inside the plane was or should have taken the commands of the plane !
Quite doubtful that there are Ejection seats in a Boeing !

Also NOT VERY FAIR that Brazilian Ministers such are Amorim and others, not more aviation exyperts than Brazilian Journalists, take the freedom to officially accuse anyone......before the end of the investigations.......AS YOU SAID !

As to the journalist onboard the Legacy, he just explained his side of the story AS A WITNESS IN A TRAGEDY , while the Brazilian Journalists and Brazilian Ministers and Official immediately accused specifically the US pilots.....WHILE THEY WERE NOT ONBOARD.....AND ONCE MORE...BEFORE THE END OF THE INVESTIGATIONS !

Conclusion : it is the Brazilians Journalists and Brazilian Ministers that have shown their Xenophobia....AND NOT THE OPPOSITE !!!!!

It is also very strange that for well over a week by now, very little is said from the Brazilian Journalists and Ministers, when more should be known from the investigators !
An article not as well "mediatized" on purpose, by the Whole Brazilian Medias as were those accusing the US pilots, said :

October 15, 2006


BRASÍLIA, Brazil - Two retired Brazilian air traffic controllers say Brazilian aviation authorities shouldn't jump to the conclusion that two Long Island pilots are to blame for that country's worst-ever aviation accident.
Brazilian authorities have accused the pilots of violating their flight plan by cruising at an improper altitude, and turning off an electronic device that helps avoid collisions by broadcasting an aircraft's speed and position.
But one retired controller told Brazil's O Globo newspaper that a 1999 incident in which two planes nearly collided indicates that such devices, transponders, have stopped working without being intentionally disabled.
A second former controller told O Globo that written flight plans are routinely changed during conversations between traffic controllers and pilots.
Air Force Brig. Alvaro L. Pinheiro da Costa told Newsday yesterday it is common for flight plans to be altered during conversations between controllers and the c**kpit. But Pinheiro da Costa, who developed Brazil's upgraded air traffic control system, said he did not know whether investigators had examined airport equipment that would have automatically recorded communications between the control tower and the pilots as they prepared for takeoff.
"They can change the proposed flight plan, but everything is recorded," he said.

O Globo quoted former air controller Joaquim Francisco Rodrigues, 51, as saying the pilot of a Varig jetliner told him his transponder was on, even though the transponder data did not appear on the radar. Another aircraft maneuvered sharply to avoid the Varig in the 1999 incident.

The comments by the retired controllers would bolster the position of the two pilots, Jan Paladino, 34, of Westhampton Beach, and Joseph Lepore, 42, of Bay Shore. The two employees of Ronkonkoma-based ExcelAire were ferrying a newly purchased Embraer Legacy jet to the United States when they collided with a Boeing 737 at 37,000 feet. All 154 people aboard the Boeing were killed.

As you can read :
- it is the Brazilians who accused....before the end of the investigations, not the opposite.

This clearly demonstrates that the investigations are still going on, and accusing the US pilots as you did, is not only premature and also that the Xenophobia is from Brazilian authorities and Brazilian medias !

I agree with your statement Sertanejo!

These others with bulls**t comments are trying to show their ignorance.

The difference is that on 9/11/2001 the 2 planes involved hit voluntary 2 of the tallest world buildings while the Brazilian tragedy was over.....THE AMAZON...and therefore no building was hit....because there are NONE !

If you cant see a difference, you just show that you are a typical Brazilian, while Arabs and Muslims can see a difference !

Enjoy your Brazilian education and Xenophobia !

Join the group: The average American- I don't like them and would never love them!

I know how to write in English and Portuguese. I even live in Brazil and went once to Disneyland! And you, copy of Bus**tler?

The Average MAN would say the same about you, unless you are a cute prostitute!

It would be unwise to assume that everyone who posts comments on this site is ignorant and uneducated. However, most do not feel the need to post descriptions of their qualifications and abilities.

The defacto language if this site is English. This is because English is the most widely used second language in the world, and that way the largest audience is reached. How would it be to have posts in French, German, Hindi, etc.? Wouldn't that be counter-productive?

Sertanejo, I appreciate your thoughtful comment as compared to some of the other ignorance and arrogance commonly posted here. Why people feel the need to just be hateful is beyond me. Americans have been good to Brazil and Brazilians in many ways, so to state that all Americans care only about themselves or that they are all dislikable is silly. People just want to stir up hatred. And they are walking over the corpses of those tragically killed to do so. They should be ashamed. At heart, it is an aviation issue common to every country with major airlines and busy charter traffic. To assume it is an America v. Brazil issue is to miss the point. But then they are only following the lead of some Brazilian ministers and reporters who have chosen to show their own arrogance and ignorance in commenting prematurely. It just makes the tragedy that much greater.

I am sure the peanut heads will now make ignorant insults of me, but I think I am done commenting on this matter. So I won't be back to read it.

In the past few days I have read two interesting articles. The first was in this weeks issue of VEJA. In that article they have a graphic depicting the points at which the Legacys transponder was recorded by ATC. The depiction shows that ATC received altitude information erratically. So, we do not know, as yet, whether that is a problem with the transponder or ATC equipment. In either case, it does show that Controllers were aware that the plane was at 37,000 feet.
Second was an article in Globo. In the article the writer states that the Legacy pilot asked for 36,000 some time prior to the accident and that the Controller did not approve his request.
A flight plan is just that, a plan. I am a licensed pilot and can tell you that after the pilot asked for an altitude change and the request not approved, it is then incumbent on the Controller to assign the pilot a new altitude.
The public does not have enough information to make all these judgements. The ^Black Box^ of the Legacy will indicate whether the transponder was turned off - presumably the government investigators have that answer. Also, we do not have access to the voice recordings from ATC to the pilots. Again, government investigators have that. In the meantime, it is pointless to try to reach judgement piecemeal and, unfair to those involved.

Dear Mr. Guest (above):

I must agree with you that it is too early to tell where the failure occurred, until all the facts are in.

However, also being a licensed pilot, I do not agree with your statement “after the pilot asked for an altitude change and the request was not approved, it is then incumbent on the Controller to assign the pilot a new altitude.”

Partially true: Until the Pilot hears the word “clear”, the pilot must remain at his present/approved flight plan with no deviations as stated by the FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) in the US, Brasil or any other airspace in the world.

The comparison that I made previously, I must admit perhaps hastily, the same as the journalist Joe Sharkey (of the New York Times), one of the passengers of the Legacy, by minimizing the Brasilian ATC system, known worldwide is one of the safest anywhere!

Peace

therefore why do Brazilian Officials and Ministers accused directly and still openly accuse the US pilots....before the report of the investigators ?
Sharkey was just 1 person in a plane and as a witness he explained his side of the story, his version/explanation should be taken for whatever it is worth !
On the other hand, NO brazilian journalist, citizen, or Minister were witnesses in anyway.

It is also quite curious that today in Bloomberg news, Rodrigo Marocco, president of the pilot's association of Brazilian airline Viacao Aerea Riograndense SA, said in an interview in Rio de Janeiro : ``It's natural to speculate that the Legacy pilots may have switched the equipment off,''
And due to such a speculation......every Brazilian, citizen or worse Ministers themselves.....also take their own speculation for granted as being the truth !
And whatever the investigators will report may also request counter expertises and investigations !

That is where Brazilians are not fair : they KNOW, without knowing anything except what their Ministers and journalists said, who the guiltys are, after 1 day.

Once again, you should take public opinon for whatever it is worth. Lets allow the due process to take place.

This was a sad tragic accident. We had a bad accident in Chicago about 15 years ago. The warning indicator for the flaps on the jet kept buzzing, even though everything was fine. The pilots turned off the buzzer do they could fly with sanity. Unfortunately when they tried to take off from Chicago, they forgot to extend the flaps, and the warning buzzer did not warn them. They crashed soon after take-off. We did not know the reason. No one had any idea at first what happened. We did not jump to conclusions or call the pilots evil or stupid. It was an accident. It happens. People are not perfect, and bad things happen.

Over the Amazon, the communication is difficult. Someone did not get a proper message. We do not know if a transponder broke, a transmission was misunderstood or the pilots were told to go to the wrong altitude. We do not know.

The mistake that Brazil made was immediately taking the passports of the pilots. They are jumping to many conclusions. No one knows what happened yet. These investigations take much time. In the US, we have had 100's of huge crashes. We learn from each one. Sometimes it is a design problem, pilot error, or an error from the control tower.

Taking the passports is something we would have expected if this happened in China, or the old USSR, or maybe over North Korea. We do not expect this kind of behaviour from Brazil. Sure, your government may hate Americans, but Americans do not hate Brazil. This behaviour came as a shock.

When we find out what happened, then we can assertain blame, and discover a punishment.

This tradegy has left many families dealing with lost love ones and instead of helping the healing process it seems there is a political issue. This isn't about being of one race or the other it's about human lose of life in an accident. I hope the answers will be answered so the families can have closure. I pray for their lose and feel great sorrow that our 2 countries can't even come to an understanding when human tradegy is at stake. Hatred is never the best solution.

directly the US pilots, before the end of the investigations, below is the latest news, published on Oct 19 :

"The black boxes from the jets that collided over the Amazon jungle three weeks ago have been returned to Brazil, but the head of the investigation said data transcripts won't be released until other evidence is collected.

Col. Rufino Antonio da Silva Ferreira, chief of Brazil's Division of Investigation and Prevention of Air Accidents and president of the commission investigating the Sept. 29 collision, returned Thursday from Ottawa, where the Transportation Safety Board of Canada last week retrieved information from the Legacy's two black boxes and one from the other plane.

LocalLinks

The recordings on a fourth box, the c**kpit voice recorder on Gol Airlines Flight 1907, have not yet been transcribed. The part of the device that records conversations was dislodged during the crash that killed 154 after it collided with a jet flown by two Long Island pilots, and military personnel are using metal detectors to find it.

When he arrived in Rio de Janeiro, Ferreira told Brazilian newspapers that he had no timetable for completing the investigation or releasing the details from the recorders.

Employees of Embraer, the Brazilian firm that made the Legacy 600 executive jet owned by ExcelAire of Ronkonkoma, will be interviewed Friday, said federal police director Renato Sayão. Air traffic controllers and their supervisors will be interviewed in the coming days, he said. And officials may want to re-interview the Legacy pilots, Joseph Lepore, 42, of Bay Shore, and Jan Paladino, 34, of Westhampton Beach. One newspaper, Estado of Sao Paulo, reported that the data retrieved by the Canadian technicians indicated that the right wing and tail of the Gol Boeing 737 was damaged.

Defense Minister Waldir Pires told reporters he believes the Gol jet's pilots were never informed that the Legacy was in the same area and was out of contact for an hour before impact.

The controllers have been criticized for not alerting the Gol pilots and diverting them from the approaching Legacy, whose locational transponder was not operating. That was confirmed by the black boxes, officials said.

But Pires continued to blame the U.S. pilots for deviating from their flight plan. Lepore and Paladino said in their depositions that they had been cleared to remain at the altitude at which the crash occurred, and a reported excerpt of the plane's c**kpit recorder transcript leaked to the newspaper O Globo seems to support that claim.

I feel it would be important to remark the lower quality of American made pos such as Boeing, a grotesque aparatus made from parts assembled by, democratically correct I might add, xenophobic rednecks from all 50 states. With that in mind we can proceed to mourn the event and allude to the superior quality of Airbus.

That is all.

Say what you want about Americans or Brazilians, but know this: No matter where it is, who flies, or builds the airplane, it is the PILOT, the CAPTAIN who is ultimately responsible for WHERE HE OR SHE FLIES TO. Brazilan ATC is not responsible if they gave accurate ATC guidance, and as long as the aircraft performed according to design, EMBRAER is not responsible. I expect that ATC EMBRAER and BOEING will not be exonerated in this case, after having provided documents showing the aircraft were performaing as stated when certificated by the appropriate agency. As a person who has been involved with aviation my entire working life, (I am 46 YOA) both on the ATC side, and in aircraft maintenance, it is most likely pilot error will be the main question at issue in this case, i.e. whether the transponder was turned off or not, and why the aircraft was not at its assigned altitude.

Give the case time to be investigated and tried, and see what evidence is yielded from the c**kpit voice recorder and digital flight data recorder before getting invloved in the media hype and jumping to conclusions. These investigations can take months or even years. Being overly emotional will not bring anybody's loved ones back, sorry to say. My prayers are with the families of the deceased, and the souls of those passed on.

A correction: I expect Brazilain ATC, EMBRAER and BOEING WILL be exonerated after providing the documents the court will undoubledly request.

In all American posts one thing was ignored, the extremely disrespectful so-called articles from the American journalist. That alone is reason enough to fuel a lot of "public hatred". The script is the same as with everyone else, they make it look like the country is populated by savages without any law, they make it look like the Amazon is no man's land empty and just standing there for anyone to come and to whatever they want, and so on. AMERICANS JUST DON'T GET IT. When in Rome do as the romans, have you ever heard of it? But no, americans simply accuse everyone else of being "evil" (even if they don't kill thousands of people or keep them in secret bases just like the US) , they just s**t on any laws a country might have, they just consider themselves to be superior in all ways possible.

BUT the pilots are in FIVE STAR HOTEL, being very well treated while the investigations proceed!! This alone makes people's blood boil because no one is well treated by the police in here!! Those pilots are treated like kings and STILL an american redneck claims RIDICULOUS THINGS. BOY, THAT PISSES EVEYONE OFF!!

If it were in the US, where would they be? In some secret base suffering cavity searches 4 times a day?

Really, if this Joe Sharkey clown could just shut up, people wouldn't give a s**t about this whole incident! More people die in the traffic that in planes, people dying shouldn't cause such length of discussion. THIS WHOLE WITCH HUNT IS ONLY HAPPENING BECAUSE OF SOME BIG MOUTHED AMERICANS, AS USUAL, MAKING THE MOST RIDICULOUS CLAIMS ABOUT THINGS THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW.

If that's not bad enough I saw a post in here talking about "race", arrrrrrrrgh. NAZIS!!!

Shut the F !.
The whole world knows how the US learns from its mistakes.
The donkeys have not yet learnt that other nations exisit in this earth. They are slowly discovering that nobody respects them, and actualy people laugh at them. They are gradualy becoming the biggest JOKE of the century. ! Thanks to people like KEN who are ruled by BUSH, and bunch of cowards.

And when somebody point out the funny things to Americans, they start talking about the violence in Brasil, or other country..etc...etc... Who is the largest producer of Arms and ammunation in this world dear americans?
When somebody starts talking about reality, and being positive, then these americans start talking about pessimism and dark future. WOW. acoridng to Bush Afghanistan is soon becoming a developed state.
And what time for you to accept, the world is better of without the US. stop poking your nose every where. You stink.

As an American who spent 10 years as a child and young man in Brasil, it saddens me to see how many Brazilians express a blind, irrational hatred of the United States. Many of the comments posted here have absolutely no basis in reality. No pilot(s) involved in any air disaster in the United States has/have ever been detained and treated like criminals in the manner that the pilots involved in this tragedy have. The assertion that had Brazilian pilots been involved in an accident in the U.S., they would immediately be sent to prison in Guantanamo and treated as terrorists makes those posting such nonsense look like fools and supports the notion held by some that Brasil is full of third-world, backwater, primitives. Which is of course no more correct than to make the claim that the pilots turned off the transponder because they are arrogant Americans. And for God's sake, what in the hell does this accident have to do with ANYTHING else in rest of the world, other than another excuse to bash the U.S.

Years ago, I used to get angry that my friends in the U.S. would make comments and assumptions about Brasil that were illogical and uninformed. That has turned around and now the very people I used to defend have gone beyond making ignorant and uninformed comments to the point of hatred. All of which is ironic given the many thousands of Brazilians that enter and remain in the U.S. illegally every year. If the U.S. were such a horrid place, I don't suppose so many people would risk life and limb to come here.

I still love Brazil and my Brazilian friends, but I am disappointed in you.

Marc,

I agree with you that a lot of stupid comments have been made on this topic. However, you said that the American pilots have been treated like criminals here in Brazil. This is a complete nonsense. Those pilots had their passports taken because they are important witnesses of an accident where hundreds of people died. This is usual procedure. They have not been arrested and they are free to go anywhere in the country. Criminals are not treated like this, anywhere. Also, Brazilian authorities are acting in a very cautious way as not to brand anyone as the guilty part in advance. This behavior has been praised even in the U.S. and other countries. However, I cannot make the same comments about how mass media have been covering the case, in Brazil and in the U.S.

Cheers

MARC: On your way out... Don't let the door handle hit you where the good lord split you.

You americans are all the same!

What part of the "FIVE STAR HOTEL" did you miss? They aren't being treated like criminals, they are being treated LIKE ROCK STARS! Taking their passports is the usual procedure. If they were allowed to leave Brazil do you know when they would come back for questioning from the authorities? NEVER. AMERICANS JUST DON'T GET IT

Maybe if it were in the US they wouldn't go to Guantanamo bay, BUT THEY WOULDN'T BE IN A FIVE STAR HOTEL FOR SURE!!!

Now, about the "millions" of people going to the US? That's a mafia!!! Yes, human traffickers, involved in lots of other crimes as well, HAVE A VERY PROFITABLE BUSINESS in the US. The US businesses prosper in employing quasi slaves, paying them peanuts. HOW DO YOU THINK THE SOON-TO-BE-SLAVES GET THE MONEY TO PAY FOR THE TRIP TO BEGIN WITH???

Part of their salaries will be for the mafia. That's the "good possibility", the "bad possibility" is being forced into prostitution (like happens a lot in Europe), or do slave work in some farm or even killed.

WHAT AN AMERICAN DREAM, HUH? It couldn't get any better, could it? EXPLOTATION OF SOMEONE ELSE'S MISERY BY THE US BUSINESS MACHINE. Think about that when you start thinking about "millions of people risking their lives". The US businesses say "hello, we have lots of stuff for you", some other criminal offers a full package of "go to the US and get rich", and then the retards get killed, raped, enslaved, etc. It works like a symphony.

Well, it seems that the macaquito police took your fat gringos asses again. Tell me about hypocrise.

hypocrisy hypocrites

my comment wasnt idiotic, I live in the US for almost 4 years now and everytime I travel nationally here, I get treated like a terrorist on the airports. I am sorry but that's the way Americans feel about the rest of the world, that everyone wants to attack them because they are so special. So, if that happened here with Brazilian pilots they would be accused of doing it on purpose no matter what happened. I know many Muslims and Arabs that were attacked by civilians and accused of terrorism aftae 9/11 and they were normal citizens here. Ask me why I live here? Because I marry an American that have the same opinions as I do about this goverment. But because this happened to Brazilians are lives aren;t as important as the Americans therefore deserve no punishment right?

Brazilians X Americans
I understand that everywhere we have good and bad people, we know that Brazil has too it's share of problems like any other capitalist society special the capitalist one's, but unfortunatelly those 55% correct me if am I wrong, that voted for Bush in US and brought this Monster to the planet is destroying everything good that America stood foor and fought for many years, I do believe that we have good honest sensible people in America like we have good and sensible people in Brazil , whatever is the course of the investigation lets wait for it's conclusion, I agree with the previous postings about the way Brazilians or anybody that is not perceived to be "White" are treated looked and handled in America is well known, but I guess like everything else things change
all come to pass like the slaves that got their liberty after too much bloodshed...I am writing as a Brazilian living in American for nearly 10 years...

"we know that Brazil has too it's share of problems like any other capitalist society special the capitalist one's"

Yes, the communist countries seem to be doing quite well.

"but unfortunatelly those 55% correct me if am I wrong, that voted for Bush in US and brought this Monster to the planet is destroying everything good that America stood foor and fought for many years"

Anti-Americanism goes WAY back before you were a twinkle in your father's eye. Bush may be a moron, but regardelss of whose ass warms the chair in the oval office, you and your ilk of anti-capitalist guerillas would STILL be complaining.

"whatever is the course of the investigation lets wait for it's conclusion "

Now, there's a sensible thought, you should have ended there. You loose your credibility again with this next gem.

"I agree with the previous postings about the way Brazilians or anybody that is not perceived to be "White" are treated looked and handled in America is well known"

Yuppers it is just a horrid racist country, all those black leaders, millionaires, celebrities, they all have it tough. Poor Chris Rocks mum had two wait an extra ten minutes for her 500 dollar lunch last week. Oh, how racist can a land be. Woes me.

Get of the f**king cross, we need the wood already!

All of you are soooo very sad. I used to frequent this site from time to time but it soon became apparent why I stopped. The hatred expressed for Americans is beyond appalling and one can only assume that the Brazilians here represent the worst your country has to offer. That Bush and the war is dragged into every, single discussion is proof positive that many of you hate for the sheer joy of it. Statements like this are typical here:

"You americans are all the same!"

Yes that's right haters - every single American is the same. Funny you make such comments considering how much Brazilians take exception to American (and other) stereotypical assumptions about your culture and people.

Ana Paula represents the worst of all of you and should try to find a little joy lest she rot away in a corpsy shell of hate, self-loathing and self-pity. You are a sad woman who really needs to get some fresh air and meditate more often.

"So, if that happened here with Brazilian pilots they would be accused of doing it on purpose no matter what happened. I know many Muslims and Arabs that were attacked by civilians and accused of terrorism aftae 9/11 and they were normal citizens here."

Wow - you and the rest really are sad aren't you? Do you really believe that Americans would assume Brazil intentionally intended to attack the US? You need help woman. Funny I have been living in the US one hell of a lot longer than you and I have yet to meet one Muslim who was attacked and I attended a university complete with hundreds of Muslims on that day. I know it full well that it has happened but please stop going over the top to try and denigrate an entire people. It only makes you look equally fanatical.

Some day you will wake up and realize that not ALL Americans/Brazilians/Germans/Japanese, etc. are the same. You will hopefully realize that we are all much closer than once suspected and indeed have a common interest in fighting big business and government corruption. We need to reduce the population together and fight the destruction of the Amazonian rainforest. These things concern all of us. The vast majority of Americans' lives are NOT improving. Most of them are growing poorer right along with Brazilians, Argentinians, Indians, Mexicans and Chinese but that doesn't really factor in when your only interest is venting hate and spewing venom in an ignorant and pitiful way. Good luck all - you're going to need it.

Sincerely,

An American married to Brazilian - thank god she's more rational and intelligent than most of you . . .

Proponents of American exceptionalism argue that the United States is exceptional in that it was founded on a set of republican ideals, rather than on a common heritage, ethnicity, or ruling elite. The term was first used by the famous French sociologist Alexis de Tocqueville in 1831.

Some may erroneously mistake “exceptionalism” with “superiority”. To the contrary, the US founding fathers were not utopian and saw man and therefore societies as instruments of both good and bad. They saw millennia of human suffering of the masses at the hands of economic and political elite. Their experiment with self-government brought a hope that through a rules based society with transparency that the “good” could outweigh the “bad” of human nature. They dreamed of bringing economic and political opportunity and freedom to the masses – not through a socialist revolution but through bloodless, orderly and evolutionary change. This required citizens of each generation exercising courage and embracing change when needed and to really commit to confronting problems, imposing impunity for wrongdoing and fighting the human impulse to be prejudice and fearful in the face of the unknown.

The U.S. is not one person. It is not George Bush (any more than Lula is Brazil). For those of us who consider George Bush the antithesis of our view of the values of America, we are again seeing the institutions of American government functioning. The public has come to see Washington controlled by one party for too long, that has been corrupted by its power and that has betrayed American values of thrift, prudence, justice and optimism. With the November elections and the dramatic changes in the control of the legislature we will be see the US once again begin the process of reinventing itself. I dream of a day when the struggling Brazilian democracy matures to the point where its institutions can better do the same.

Like Brazilians we would like to think of our peoples and our governments as perfect. Alas we are both cursed, like the rest of our world, by our own human weakness.

A humble but hopeful citizen of the world

I really need to comment on this because I am in fact an aviation expert and can comment on the available facts in a reasonable manner without speculation.

An American government official (other than a politician) would be fired if he or she made speculative statements during an official investigation. It simply doesn't happen here. The United States doesn't impose criminal penalties on professionals who make inadvertant errors at work regardless of how many people are lost or the nationality of the pilot unless there is proof demonsrating intentional negligence....this is a fact, not an opinion.

The fact that the two aircraft collided in the first place is absolute proof that both airplanes were flying steady, on autopilot, navigating on the airway, and maintaining the altitude they thought was correct at the time of the collision. I can prove this statistically if you like but take my word for it. There is no chance that the pilots were maneuvering the airplane as suggested, this would be mathematically impossible considering the circumstances. The person who suggested that made the comment for what is more likely political motivation rather than expert opinion because an expert would know better.

It's difficult to understand the nature of the failure of the collision avoidance system and at this time it would be purely speculative to assume anything about why this happenned.

The American pilots were not that young and both were well experienced with a history of professional airline experience.

Those are facts and are not disp**able.

"Those are facts and are not disp**able. "

You know what, by brazilian law a professional can be prosecuted for homicide even if they unintentionally causes the death of someone. The point here is not if they purposefully crashed the plane into another, but if they were negligent. If they were then they can face penalties.

I am not sure it's so hard for foreigners to understand the basics of what it's going on. If they are found guilty then they WILL SUFFER THE PENALTIES FOR IT. Would you want any different? So what's different from the US? So in the US the victim would be eligible to request a zillion dollars in damages?

It's hard to believe that someone would be fired for making speculations in the US, JUST TAKE A LOOK AT THE MEDIA!

You are confusing apples with oranges.

You and I must obey the law of the land, whether in Brasil, the United States or any other nation in the world. Laws in Brasil, especially in the public transportation sector, are meant to protect the general public. Indeed, professionals found for negligence that ends up killing innocent people, are potentially exposed to charges of involuntary manslaughter (negligent homicide), in Brasil.

Do you remember the 1998 investigation involving a US Navy A-6 Prowler that killed twenty people in an Italian ski village as it rammed into a cable-car. Later on it was concluded that the Marine plane was flying too low and going too fast. The US military did not turn those pilots to the Italian justice system opting for a military court. Never heard nothing of that outcome!

Or three American service people in Japan recently accused of raping a young girl and eventually convicted. Or, the clown Dale Robbin Hirsh, a pilot from American Airlines “flipping the bird” incident at Brasilian immigration officials, eventually charged with contempt and disrespect to the Brasilian authorities. And many other incidents in a smaller scale, which I have witnessed before perpetrated namely by American tourists here in Brasil.

What bothers me most and many other people on this board is the proverbial American John Wayne attitude towards other people and cultures. The air of superiority carried by many of your traveling compatriots that somehow you are better than every one else, of contempt and condescending in nature. As if our values and lives are of less importance or cheaper than yours. Likewise, this is the very attitude of the journalist Joe Sharkey of the New York Times, one of the passengers of the Legacy. This is very counter-productive for your country, the United States. That American journalist typifies my conclusions. And yes, there are millions of Americans and Brasilians who are people of good faith, decent good citizens, because I don’t want to generalize stereotypes here.

Moreover, I agree with you that we must wait until all the facts are in and anything else, will be pure speculation. The Brasilian due process will be timely, just and fair. However, this board is a “public forum” where people such as myself, express their feelings and ideas freely. From open discussions we can all learn something, don’t you agree?

Peace

Negligence is different from an honest mistake. A pilot flying low and deliberately reckless is very different from a pilot who thinks he is doing the correct thing and quite possibly was following specific clearances. Under ICAO regulations a pilot cannot simply change his altitude in controlled airspace without a specific clearance from air traffic control even if it conflicts with his filed flight plan or altitude rules based on direction of flight. There is absolutely no evidence that either flight crew was negligent at all. All the testimony presented in the media that the pilots were negligent is purely speculation with absolutely no evidence of any kind. I'm not saying that proves they weren't negligent but I find it hard to believe that Brazilians believe it's ok to prosecute under criminal law with only circumstantial evidence. It is of course impractical to prove a negative under any circumstances.

You describe various instances of Americans involved in criminal behavior and intentional recklessness in an attempt to compare this situation to those. There is no similarity to any of the examples you provided. Criminal behavior requires some level of intent.

I had said; “An American government official (other than a politician) would be fired if he or she made speculative statements during an official investigation.” The members of the media are not government officials and their job is to speculate. It's our job as individuals to dismiss such sensationalism news stories in the hopes of discouraging that kind of reporting. Just the facts please. My background is in teaching, aviation and investigations.

On the subject of perceived American arrogance. I believe it is mostly perceived. I don't believe I'm arrogant but I am confident in my ability to understand matters pertaining to aviation better than a layperson and do not personally feel animosity or disdain toward anyone based on nationality or race. Certainly there are arrogant people in America and every other country in the world. I find arrogance or the perception of arrogance in others to be a defense mechanism to hide personal insecurities.

There is plenty of evidence available in this case to accurately answer everyone’s questions. We will all find out what happened in time and need to be patient. The real question is if everyone involved can accept the truth when it is uncovered.

Good lord.....
Dear Groan,
I presume this blog is just for civilized internauts, without doubt you are
entitled to your opinion, and I respect that ,so.....I hope that you respect mine and the others too, if you have nothing to contribute positively in this please do not tell people to shut up , this is not polite , futhermore this just come to prove that you are a very arrogant person ........

After the investigation is complete and the facts are revealed, some of which are already known to parties involved but have not yet been released to the public until they have been properly compiled and assessed, will the people of Brazil be willing to charge a Brazilian air traffic controller, a Brazilian pilot, or a Brazilian aircraft manufacturer if they are found to be complicate and negligent in their professional duties?

By rushing to judgment in the public eye the people of Brazil may have already condemned their own people.

It may be of interest to note that an accident occurred very recently in the United States that has some similarities. A Japanese glider pilot flying at 15,000 feet with his transponder turned off to conserve battery power collided with a corporate jet. The glider was destroyed but the pilot survived by using a parachute. The jet, which suffered significant damage, was able to land with only minor injuries sustained by the Captain. Although no one was seriously injured or killed the glider pilot was deliberately negligent. To my knowledge no one considered detaining the Japanese pilot or charging him with a crime even though civil liability may still be an issue. I've heard some amateur armchair investigators argue that the glider would have the right of way over a jet but this rule would not apply under the circumstances and the airspace under which the flights were operating.

"Americans like to dish it out but don’t like to take it in.."
This statement tells it all, you see name calling is the corect answer for school children my friend. Too bad you can not give us some facts. We could all learn something, no?

You seem to have already formed a preconceived idea as to “What Should But Will Not Happen!” You mentioned:

“By rushing to judgment in the public eye the people of Brazil may have already condemned their own people”

Non-sense. This point of view is frankly, beyond me… At this point, according to the latest news the question has narrowed down to the transponder, that is, malfunction versus turned-off. It will be interesting to see this outcome.

Equipment malfunction? I doubt very seriously. Embraer’s aircraft has proven to be extremely reliable for the past several years as a workhorse, flying in every continent on the planet. Transponders in general are also extremely reliable devices. The Brasilian ATC even in transitional areas has worked for many decades without major incidents. Equipment malfunction seems like a very remote probability.

Personnel Error? Most likely. Perhaps a lack of communication from either the Legacy crew or ground controllers, or difficulties with language, controllers being fluent in Portuguese while the Legacy crew in English, but not conversely.

You also mentioned:

“The fact that the two aircraft collided in the first place is absolute proof that both airplanes were flying steady, on autopilot, navigating on the airway, and maintaining the altitude they thought was correct at the time of the collision. I can prove this statistically if you like but take my word for it. There is no chance that the pilots were maneuvering the airplane as suggested, this would be mathematically impossible considering the circumstances”

As a mathematician by trade, I could not disagree with you any stronger. Well, the odds of collision even though quite small is always possible since mistakes in aviation are cumulative, stacking up to disastrous consequences. Remember the lottery, matching 6 numbers out of 49 possible outcomes (a simple combination mathematical algorithm). With odds of 1 to 16 million (described by the Hyper-Geometric distribution), someone always hit the jackpot.

As a pilot (instrument rated) since 1982, with over 1000 PIC hours, I know the potential gray areas of aviation and the potential to tragedies. I must grant you, I don’t make a living from flying but rather, as an Engineer. You, on the other hand, as Pilot by profession should be aware of these implications rather than stubbornly hanging to a singular point of view, described by your former statement “those are facts and are not disp**able.” That’s simply ridiculous! You or I don’t know what is under a stone unless with turn that stone first.

Why don’t you follow your own advice and don’t be an “amateur armchair investigator!” Let’s watch the due process complete. Enough said!

Peace

Enough! Basta! I want everyone to chill out, make a nice caipirinha and listen to some good music... and don't argue with me. I don't want to have to come back here and leave another "angry" emoticon..fazemos as pazes

Everyone in US knows that Brazil lays south of Texas, Brazilian speaks spanish, we have elephants in Amazon, and Bin Laden has been in Paraná state to hire gunmen.
Also, everyone knows that Americans are perfect, will never make mistakes, and Brazilians are primitive people that can't control their own country's air traffic, mostly because the smoke signals get mixed with the smoke from Amazon's fires.
What nobody remembers is that the two american pilots were staying in 5 star hotels in copacabana, being treated like, well, like Americans in Brazil. And they are 24/7 with a lawyer. If they are mistreated, the Brazilian government will be charged.
The only fact that scares the heck out of me is this: The investigation on the black boxes being conducted in Canada, where Bombardier already has a proven history of dirty-playing. (Does anyone remember the embargo on the brazilian meat due to the madcow disease? And who's wife was the prime minister's sister?)

Quote by carioCAOAs a mathematician by trade, I could not disagree with you any stronger. Well, the odds of collision even though quite small is always possible since mistakes in aviation are cumulative, stacking up to disastrous consequences. Remember the lottery, matching 6 numbers out of 49 possible outcomes (a simple combination mathematical algorithm). With odds of 1 to 16 million (described by the Hyper-Geometric distribution), someone always hit the jackpot.

Actually it's the distribution that proves my point. The probability of collision of two aircraft equipped as they were, flying in opposite directions on the same airway at the same altitude, is probably more like 1 in 3, not one in 16 million. This is the problem with the system. Collision avoidance technology is not intended to be a substitute for "big sky" and is not intended to be the sole safety net for poor radar control or navigational errors. In the past when the resolution of airborne navigation equipment and avionics was not very high the chances of such a collision were in fact very small but that has changed and has become an inherent flaw in the current air traffic control system. My personal preference is to employ lateral offsets when navigating on published airways in class II airspace but this is not required or even advised. If the crews of either of these airplanes considered this we wouldn't be having this discussion today. My mathematical proof would fall along the lines of determining the possible cause of an event based on two possible scenarios where one possibility is one in several thousand versus the other possibility that has a one in three chance of causing the event. Mathematically, that would make my suggestion about a thousand times more likely to be correct. I think such odds are good enough to be considered factual for any court whether it be civil or criminal. In simpler terms, if the pilots of the Legacy were maneuvering or flying randomly in deliberate defiance of air traffic control as has been hastily suggested by people who lack expert knowledge the collision would almost certainly have not occurred.

Quote by carioCAOAs a pilot (instrument rated) since 1982, with over 1000 PIC hours, I know the potential gray areas of aviation and the potential to tragedies. I must grant you, I don’t make a living from flying but rather, as an Engineer. You, on the other hand, as Pilot by profession should be aware of these implications rather than stubbornly hanging to a singular point of view, described by your former statement “those are facts and are not disp**able.” That’s simply ridiculous! You or I don’t know what is under a stone unless with turn that stone first.

1000 hours in the last 24 years does not make you an aviation expert. In fact, I wouldn't consider you to be even marginally experienced. Sorry for the insult and I know you don't need to hear that but others here might think that somehow qualifies you to make expert assessments. In reference to my previous posts where I stated these are facts I stand by that statement and regardless of how much you try to argue you can't change facts. If you read carefully I had not made any speculative remarks and have not discounted the possibility of the American pilots being negligent. I simply stated the facts since there is no evidence that they were negligent.

Also, I am not an amateur investigator, I have career experience in aviation investigations. That makes me a professional.

One thing I do agree with you is the low possibility of equipment failure due to the fact that both aircraft were fresh out of the factory but it can happen and transponders do in fact fail, that's why there are two of them on board. Since flight crews have no notification of transponder failure on board so it becomes the responsibility of air traffic controllers to notify crews immediately if a transponder is no longer transmitting. Given a failure of the collision avoidance and the inherent high resolution of the navigational equipment the collision avoidance system was the only thing to protect these airplanes from bad air traffic control or other errors. Because of the statistical probability of these factors combining to cause a disaster it is likely to be considered a major contributing factor. Given the nature and professionalism of commercial pilots it seems more likely that equipment failure caused the transponder of one of the aircraft to fail rather than the possibility of either crew deliberately turning off their transponder. This last paragraph is of course speculation but it is educated speculation based on the more likely scenarios.

I do not mean to sound indifferent to the suffering of those who have lost family and friends in this tragedy. Despite my analytical approach to this discussion I have personal experience and directly understand what those people are going through and my sincere sympathy goes out to them. My interest here is purely academic and my participation in this discussion is intended to enlighten those who may be open minded enough to put aside the intense emotion and consider a more beneficial understanding of what happened.

I've noticed several people commenting on the accommodations of the crew. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. You do understand don't you that the pilots are not under arrest at this time, they are simply being prevented from leaving the country. If I was staying in Rio I would be staying there also.

How did you quantify these odds? I don’t see the basis of your claim!

Your conjecture is absurd, informal and ambiguous, at best. Formal mathematical proofs have to provide clear logical axioms for any unproven stochastic proposition, usually base on empirical data. Moreover, I can firmly inform you that Statistics and Probability remains nothing more than an “educated guess” science, leading to weak extrapolation constructs. Otherwise, you would see a rush of mathematicians and statisticians playing the lottery every week and winning, or Meteorologists being always right in weather forecasts, which is not the case. My advise to you is “stick to aviation,” because the foundation of your mathematical assumptions are immature and just plain ridiculous.

Look, the probability of any 2 airplanes converging to an intersection (collision point) for any given time (at the same time) and at different speeds, in a 3 dimensional environment is indeed very remote even though, it happens occasionally. Certainly not 1:3 ratio (33%) as you proposed. Can you imagine people boarding airlines knowing that their chance of survival is only 66% in every trip? I can’t take you serious!

Furthermore, the probability of collision is not the same between “airport areas” (converging aircraft) versus “in-route airspace” (diverging aircraft). In fact, higher odds on the first and being much less likely on the latter. The only thing I can agree is that despite the most sophisticated anti-collision apparatus, it can not replace the “eagle’s eyes,” that is to say, safety rests primarily with the pilot and his eyes in the sky to avoid other aircraft, period.

Conversely, thanks for considering me a “marginal pilot” even though, you have no clue who am I, my flying skills or safety record. It seems to go along with the rest of your speculations Frankly, the word “professional pilot” is quite subjective, given that the worst aviation disasters are usually the result of airline tragedies, when you have a flight crew of 2 to 3 professional pilots on board (thinking heads). While myself, as a hobbyist airman, a fly solo. In addition, as a passenger, I feel safer with a knowledgeable pilot rather than a hotdog golden hands cowboy type, anytime. That is to say, not how long one has flown but rather how they fly!

Last but not least, once the investigation and due process is completed and IF anyone is found negligent, they ought to be punished by the full extent of the law.

Peace

"The only fact that scares the heck out of me is this: The investigation on the black boxes being conducted in Canada, where Bombardier already has a proven history of dirty-playing. (Does anyone remember the embargo on the brazilian meat due to the madcow disease? And who's wife was the prime minister's sister?)"

Woooo there matey, I think your tin foil hat is on just a little too tight.

What the heck is happening?
written by brazilian in US, 2006-10-26 14:37:10

I could not have said it any better! The people that flew this aircraft:


are staying in a 5 stars hotel. If in the US, Guantanamo would be the quarters.

"... If in the US, Guantanamo would be the quarters. "

Once again, "Costinha" displays stunning ignorance.

P.S. - Brazilian writers, for the most part, don't go by logic. They make up s**t as they go along.

I concur with the comments made in the article entitled "responsilbility" the captain of the ship has to be held responsible when it goes down. About 10 years ago I was in a plan landing at National airport outside of Washington DC we were about ready to touch down when the captain took the plan into a 60% climb back to 15,000 feet. When we got the explaination from the c**k pit -- the runway that we had been cleared to land on had another aircraft on it. In this case the ATC made a mistake but the pilot made the correction.
In this case the GOL pilots were flying on course and in communication with the ATC and the Legacy pilots were not. If the transpounder was not working they should have contacted the ATC themselves that's what they are paid to do, otherwise we could let the aircraft on auto pilot.

written by carioCAO, 2006-10-28 13:36:38

How did you quantify these odds? I don’t see the basis of your claim!.........

Look I tried to explain it to you but I wasn't presenting a mathematical proof, I simply said I could. I really don't think that's necessary if you could only understand the basic concept.

If two airplanes are flying randomly over the vast Amazon rain forest with no common method of navigation the odds of them colliding are so remote that it would be safe to say it's impossible. We are talking about extremely remote odds, not a complete impossibility of course but your chances of winning the lottery would be higher. Try to imagine two cars driving across the Sahara desert using random routes and times and think of the possibility they will even see each other.

Now.....these airplanes were flying on the same airway, at the same altitude, and at the same time but in opposite directions. This would be like two cars traveling across the Sahara on the same highway leaving at the same time and traveling toward each other while driving in the same lane....they will certainly hit at some point in between. While I'm guessing at the odds of collision here I think 1:3 is pretty reasonable and also conservative. It may be 1:1 or 1:5 but personally, knowing how bloody accurate the navigation systems on these two aircraft are, I wouldn't want to bet even money on the possibility let alone my life.

Now that you (hopefully) understand my reasoning go back and re read my post and it should make more sense.

Air Traffic controllers have been trained to accept the "Big Sky" as a redundancy to navigational errors and controller errors and in the past this had worked just fine due to the poor accuracy of navigational equipment. Modern navigation has eliminated the "Big Sky" as the redundancy while traveling on airways and while controllers can pack more airplanes into less airspace the result is an increased reliance on collision avoidance technology. The Brazilian controllers are clearly not thinking along these lines and simply clear airplanes to navigate along published airways relying solely on the airborne redundancy. What they should do over the vast airspace above the Amazon is to clear aircraft to navigate off the airway for increased efficiency and safety because with the kind of odds I described above, you need a lot more than a single layer of redundancy to correct for altitude variations or this accident will certainly repeat itself.

A couple of you have also pointed out that the pilot has the final responsibility to "see and avoid" other traffic. This is of course true but doesn't apply at the altitudes involved. In fact, controllers are not permitted to allow aircraft to navigate in reference to visual contact at these altitudes even if they request it. The ability to see another aircraft in the sky depends on several factors. The pilots must be actively searching which is unlikely to be high on the list of priorities while cruising at 370. Traffic that is converging or diverging is by nature harder to see because there is zero relative movement across the pilot's field of view and the human brain finds it easier to locate moving objects rather than stationary ones although we generally do both reasonably well. These airplanes were converging at approximately one thousand miles per hour which about the speed of an average rifle bullet. Dodge this!

Others have suggested that regardless it is always the Captain's responsibility to avoid an accident so if one occurs he or she is always liable. If you were to accept that philosophy, which I don't, then the full responsibility would lie upon the Captain of the Boeing, not the Legacy.

written by stano, 2006-10-29 06:26:29
I concur with the comments made in the article entitled "responsilbility" the captain of the ship has to be held responsible when it goes down. About 10 years ago I was in a plan landing at National airport outside of Washington DC we were about ready to touch down when the captain took the plan into a 60% climb back to 15,000 feet. When we got the explaination from the c**k pit -- the runway that we had been cleared to land on had another aircraft on it. In this case the ATC made a mistake but the pilot made the correction.
In this case the GOL pilots were flying on course and in communication with the ATC and the Legacy pilots were not. If the transpounder was not working they should have contacted the ATC themselves that's what they are paid to do, otherwise we could let the aircraft on auto pilot.

60% to 15,000'? Now I know you just made that up. Ok, I understand the idea. Yes, this is the redundancy that makes the system work. What has this got to do with anything?

I explained that there is no feedback to the pilots to alert them of a failed transponder. It is the controller's responsibility to contact a pilot and inform them so they can switch to another unit. This happens more than you would think.

Look, I'm only trying to clear up misconceptions because there seems to be a lot of them floating around. I'm not presenting opinions or conjecture. Everything I'm describing is factual and has nothing to do with assigning blame rather than making sure this doesn't happen again. If you simply waste time pointing fingers and don't fix the true problem you're going to be back in the Amazon cleaning up another wreckage sometime in the future.

I am not making up stuff, like MG has implied before.
and my hat is fine, thank you ex pat
It's hard to find news from 2001, but I'll send out some links.

"... It does now appear that Canada trashed the Brazilian national herd solely because of airplane trade tariffs. ..." http://www.mad-cow.org/00/feb01_late.html

"... The measure responds to “other interests” and not to the purported health motives, said Pratini, who suggested that it was a political decision taken in reprisal for the growth of Brazil’s aeronautics company Embraer in the world market for medium-sized planes, a market which was previously dominated by the Canadian firm Bombardier. ..."http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/ftaa.htm

I bet if I digged dipper on more trustworthy newssites, I'd find it too, I just don't have time to.

1 Out Of 3, That’s It!
written by carioCAO, 2006-10-28 13:36:38

carioCAO sounds honest and reliable. Congratulations for the great caracter and corage you've been displaying over this matter which happens to be your preofessional field and the discussions of the ethics of it.

Oct. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Ten Brazilian air traffic controllers scheduled to testify this week about the crash of a Boeing 737 in the Sept. 29 Amazon crash that killed 154 people, said they were sick and would be unavailable to investigators.

The air controllers, all based in Brasilia, sent statements to the federal police saying they were ill and would be unable to testify, said a federal police spokesman in Sao Paulo.

Somebody tell me it's completely normal and not a coincidence for ten professionals to all get sick at the same time?

"If you simply waste time pointing fingers and don't fix the true problem you're going to be back in the Amazon cleaning up another wreckage sometime in the future."

Oh, really? Do you even know how many of these accidents there are? So it's like we started using planes last week, right? Gringos, get a clue.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I normallly do not well, I never post on an airline forum , because if you are a " so called professional then your professional occupation bosses (if it happens to be aviation related) will and does absolutely monitor these forums and can cause you serious harm if you can be identified. We so professionals, and I will not spend any time writing my qualifications here , because anyone with a PC or MAC and internet connection can become an internet expert, the only thing we prove is that we can type well. Now the reason I am posting is becausing I do read aviation post and this one is especially intersesting because I am a 738 driver for a major in the region of CAR/SAM. Now after careful reading and analysis of the post in this forum, I would like to make a comment and this is my comment: First any one who claims they are a aviation expert and can offer an opinion without speculation and is not and Brazillan commerical pilot or ATC is a COMPLETE 100% FAKE!!! If anyone can make such an erroneous statement is very offensive not only to Brazil, but to every true American Commerical ATP Certified Pilot. I have made more complete cycles to CAR/SAM then most people on the mostv have gone to the toilet without incident. I as a professional can and will say the that South American ATC Flight Following is beyond reproach from anyone on this forum. The only experts who can criticize as so called professionals speak Portuguese and are in possesion of information that we so-called forum professionals will never have! So before you start claiming youself as an "American Pilot" and staking claim as an professional avaiation expert in accident investigations at least have your facts straight, because I have never flown, nor communicated with an MIT want-a be who trys to come off as smarter than everyone else is is completely freakin wong in every point he posts when it comes to flying an commerical aircraft in Sam. I work on a 3 TO 4 schedule then I go down for S

Cont. Then I go for Sim training (check ride) every 90 days after my RTOs (regular days off) . I believe I have more complete cycles than anyone on this forum without incident from KMIA to SBGL then anyone on this forum. That being said I have nothing but the highest praise for the brazillian ATC and the SAM flight following as a whole. Unless you are the equivalent of an NTSB INVESTIGATOR in Brazil and speak Portuguese, then you should not offer any " Expert Opinion " on this forum and I will take to TASK anyone WHO CLAIMS TO BE AN ACTIVE DUTY OR RETIRED NTSB INVESTIGATOR AND OFFERING THERE EXPERT OPINION, WHILE IN A VERY CONDESENDING WAY ON THIS VERY UNFORTUNATE TRAGIC ACCIDENT! If my passengers Brazillian and Ameriacn and other nations alike read and took to heart half of what was posted here , then business and tourism to Brazil and all South America would come to a stand still!!!!!! I think I can speak for all ATP certified pilots flying in and out of CAR/SAM without incident of the past decade with majors that we feel very safe and confident in the abilities of the SAM ATC to navigate in and around the areas thay cover. WAIT AND LETB BRAZIL TO THERE INVESTIGATION BEFORE WE JUDGE!!!!!!!! i WILL NOT ANSWER ANY POST IN RESPOND TO THIS POST. I JUST HAD TO ADD " MY SO-CALLED PROFESSIONAL TWO CENTS.

By the way incidents and tragic accident happen all over the world everyday. CO1883 LANDING ON TAXIWAY Z( ZULU) instead of RWY 29 ON 10/31/2006. A 732 CRASHING AFTER TAKING IN NIGERIA WITH A LOST OF LIFE OF 96 SOULS 10/30/ 2006 A COMAIR FLT CRASHING ON T/O LEXINGTON. KY W/ 50+ SOULS PERSHING ONLY THE FO SURVIVING IN CRITICAL CONDIDTION. THERE ARE NO DAMNING POST ANYWHERE ABOUT THIS ACCIDENTS SECOND GUESSING EVERYONE. I WONDER WHY? HEY THE SKIES ARE GETTING MORE AND MORE FILLED BY THE DAY AND THERE ARE GOING TO BE MORE INCIDENTS POINT BLANK PERIOD! POINTING FINGERS AND BEING A WANNA-BE-MIT SOLVE ALL IS NOT THE ANSWER OR THE SOLUTION!

"... It does now appear that Canada trashed the Brazilian national herd solely because of airplane trade tariffs. ..." http://www.mad-cow.org/00/feb01_late.html

TRASHED THE NATIONAL HERD? Are you serious? Surely, Brazil felt the pain of a few lost millions (Canada only imported crap canned meats from Brazil FYI – so it could not have been that damaging: 10% of an 800 million dollar market?), so where do you get “trashed the Brazilian herd” from? That’s pure hyperbole.

Trashed as in “ruined” the beef’s rep**ation? I don’t think so. It was a nonevent the world over. Canadians didn’t even bat an eye. Just in Brazil did folks convulse, flipout and protest in the streets burning Celine Dione CDs (which, by the way, thank you very much).

Although at times it has been a fairly ugly battle between the aircraft manufacturers, Brazil was the FIRST found guilty in 1999 by the WTO of giving Embraer more than $4.5 billion US in illegal government subsidies (a little fact that never made it to “o Ratinho” – Brazil’s most influential source of news and views). Brazil never paid the fines. Canada, years after the MCD fiascal, was also fined for this. It´s not just Canadian dirty tricks.

But, more importantly there is no proof whatsoever that the Brazilian beef ban was linked to a dispute between governments and aircraft manufacturers. It was pure speculation on behalf of the Brazilian government, and of course the “left” ate it up. I know how you Latin American’s enjoy your “imperialist first world conspiracies against the down trodden and misunderstood revolutionaries of the south”, but how on earth would banning Brazilian canned beef give a helping hand to Bombardier?

Now, how you today draw the conclusion that qualified professionals with Bombardier (with official Brazilian observers present) would fudge, under orders from Canadian politicians, their findings to boost Bombardier’s market share (when, what everyone really wants is an answer as to why this disaster happened) is beyond me.

This is pure tin foil hat conspiratorial speculation at its finest and points to a deeper psychosis that you should have treated. Maybe a group session with another 180,000?

It is surprising that anyone would believe such an outrageously bazaar claim, yet still believe that “Lula sabia nada”.

It's hard to follow the posts made by "738 Driver out of KMIA" because it sounds very emotionally charged. I do believe it's important to clear up misconceptions and inaccurate speculative remarks made by those who don't know aviation or think they know something about it.

I also agree that professionals should refrain from posting and engaging in such discussions. I have been careful not to speculate, however it is becoming clearer as time goes by what has happened here. The real certainty is that the original speculative remarks by "so called professionals" and "experts" were designed to sway public opinion rather than uncover the truth and have been way off base.

The only justification I can offer for engaging in a discussion that I rightfully should avoid because of my professional standing is because of the particular nature of this investigation and the unfortunate focus on criminal justice rather than a truthful solution. I sincerely believe that such an attitude not only sets a dangerous precedent for all pilots and crew members involved in international commerce but serves to inhibit the true understanding of the failure of the system by laying blame on individuals rather than the system itself. Such an attitude will fail to correct the system and it will certainly fail again causing more deaths as I said before.

Aviation is a system that does not rely solely on the individuals and equipment involved to serve their function perfectly and in fact they generally don't. There is redundancy built in to the system to allow multiple variations from the proper course of events while retaining inherent safety. When such variations exceed the ability to follow a predictable statistical course of events the system begins to fail and accidents become imminent. The proper procedure in accident investigation is to identify these special variations and determine if there is a way to predict the likelihood of repeat occurrence and develop a redundancy to protect the system in the future.

The process is much more complicated than the professional experience of the average line pilot who may be involved in international operations. Why does "738 Driver out of KMIA" believe that only Brazilian aviation professionals are qualified to analyze the circumstances of this accident and that anyone else must be a fake? And why does he believe that only Brazilians have the true facts in this case? When such an accident occurs the investigation is always conducted with parallel participation from several countries and information is not withheld. In the case of recovered voice and data recorders there is a definite time period needed to properly analyze and compile the information. The fact that the Brazilian Air Force both manages investigations and is also a witness is a conflict of interest. That combined with the unfortunate criminal accusations have probably only served to slow down this process.

To the American Pilot perhaps I was a little too harsh in my post, I must say that I do respect your intelligence in the aviation field, which is obvious, I was questioning your heavy handed method of your delivery in explaining your views. I was not trying to demean you or anyone else on this forum. I must say yes I was a little emotional and the reasons if we ever meet in a bar I will tell you over a real draft beer. I believe you can understand what I am trying to convey here. The Brazillian press is now admitting that it was the ATC who was at fault in the incident. I knew that that from the very beginning as every ATP pilot knew no matter what their nationality is. I still do and will always give high praise to CAR/SAM ATC; I believe that if you live in a glass house you shouldn't throw stones. ATC is not perfect in ANY COUNTRY!!!!!!, ACCIDENTS HAPPEN. We need to step back analyze and give honest non-bias professional points of view to insure that these types of accidents do not happen again in the future. This is our solemn oath as so called professionals in the industry that we love. WE owe it to the 155 souls lost in the Amazon who will forever be in flight in my mind because they never reached their destination. We owe to them if we bestow the title of professionals and experts upon ourselves on a freakin web-site for anyone with a PC and internet connection to log on to!

In Conclusion:
Brasil: Possibly the most mind-f**ked nation on earth

why do I bother...

Americans like petrol and wars. They ain't have brains for anything else. f**k them all...