Brazzil

As the author of this article no doubt knows, "Race in Another America: The Significance of Skin Color in Brazil" by E. Telles, summarizes a mountain of the kind of research mentions above. One disturbing Brazilian survey cited by Telles gives purported evidence to the effect that lighter skinned children did better in school than their darker siblings. The book mentions the idea that racism in the US is horizontal - people of the same class are segregated, but blacks can move up the latter (Telles think this is due to affirmative action) - but racism in Brazil is vertical - people within the same class mix, but there is little upward mobility. After living in Washington, DC, for many years, and in Campinas for 8 years, I have found this theory to be pretty accurate. Campinas, by the way, would make an interesting study with regard to Brazilian racial attitudes. It is one of the few Brazillian cities that once had fairly rigid segregation, and it has a large black community that has been politically active with regard to equal rights for one hundred years. Like many northern US cities, the "old" black families make up a different social network that that of the migrants who came from the 50s onward.
Mark, any comments on how you think affirmative action will work in Brazil?

I have been visiting brazil for over 39 years and have lived with the average white brazilian family
and I can tell you that the average white family is as racist or more racist then here in the USA.
If the author had did more research he would have known this. It does not count to talk to or even live with a white person. Because as in the USA most people are not going to call a n****r a n****r in front of a n****r face.
But when white people and alone amoung themselves they do talk about the way the blacks act, cry racist at ever turn, and always have to prove their power by marrying white trailer trash.
Get really birds of a feather flock to together and always will every where in the world.

Numbers interpreted out of nowhere means absolutely nothing. People do have the notion that favelas are the places for drug trafficking, kidnappers, and that's easy to know why. Just open the newspaper and you will see those animals burning people alive in buses!! That plus the little police control of those regions, due to "land invasion" nature of such places, that's enough to make everyone affraid of passing nearby.

A question: were those people that burned the people alive in buses by any chance blonde?

There was a "police death squadron" recently (about 200 people were killed), and the people was loving it! It was after the PCC attacks in Sao Paulo. They use the population as hostage, just like terrorists, how not to expect people to love when they are attacked by the police? This doesn't justify anything of course, and many innocent that happen to be in the wrong place in the wrong time were killed too, but I am just giving the context in which many of the numbers you gave happen.

There were even messages of support to the police murderers in some places. People are really pissed off.

Everyone here is tired of seeing violence everyday. And now it seems those animals are finding more and more grotesque ways of killing people. People want it to stop. Once again, this doesn't justify the murder of anyone, it's just the context.

So, don't try to make it look like a race issue. It's not. It's paranoia and fear fueled by waves of violence.

Do you know how those "favelas" came to be? They just invaded the place!! For some people it's hard to believe that they were allowed to do that to begin with!! Now some of those "favelas" are so big, they have more people and (legal) money flowing in their economy than entire cities!!

Stop talking about afro-descendents as if it were equals. This is a common mistake made by americans. The diversity is big and there's no way of putting such label in everyone. This is a typical american thing.

In sheer numbers, the current situation in Brazil today is far worst than any period of human rights violations in US history.

Taking it out of context, yes. With an honest analysis, no.

Thus in Brazil, as in the US, about three times as many blacks live in poverty than whites.

I don't know how you can assume someone's accomplishments in life are not right, or want to take away their merits, because the number doesn't show a 50 - 50 balance.

No doubt the actions of the Brazilian police are the result of the stigma of crime that is associated with lower income, primarily negro-mestiço neighborhoods

There's no such thing of "negro-mestiço" neighborhoods in Brazil. And don't put them together. As a matter of fact, don't group people like that, that's bad for the mind, it takes away the sense of individuality and responsibility for their own lives.

Typical american talking.

From this perspective, one can clearly see the correlation between race/color and class in Brazil.

You mean in a very biased, number manipulation kind of way?

I can tell you that the average white family is as racist or more racist then here in the USA.

This is like saying "In France there are many a*****es, I have been there for 39 years". Of course you will find such things, but it's a completely different matter than say that the country is full of it.

By my experience the people that are like that are either underachievers or empty minded people that look ugly, and none of those ever posed a threat to me, I just avoid them. People with little to be proud in life grab themselves to such stupid things because they have nothing else.

Why would anyone bother about that instead of having a successful life it's beyond comprehension, unless the person that is bothered about it is also underachiever or empty minded.

I can tell you I am white and live in the south of Brazil where % wise there are less Blacks, however the ones that do live here have a hard life. The white's won't hire them to be maids, servants etc. My neighboors are nativas ( meaning from here but not Indian) and they also won't hire Blacks. Whenever I hire blacks to do work on the grounds the viilage gets revolted and I am on the Sh*t list for a few weeks. Catch 22!!!!

village?

The term village is not used in Brazil, I assume you are referring to small town, right? So you are living in a small town (few hundreds of people, maybe a few thousands), in the south, probably built by either german or italians and populated by them still, and you are complaining about racism in Brazil? How's that representative of the whole country? Are you serious?

I have met many white maids sometimes (blonde, blue eyes, etc) , but I wouldn't date or marry them for the same reason as I wouldn't for anyone from any other color. I don't want my kids to be born stupid.

Interesting essay. The issue of race is a complex one in both America and Brazil. As an American living in Brazil I am often called upon to explain the racial contraditions in my own country, and I always take the opportunity to point out contradictions in Brazilian society. Brazilians often use the U.S. as a counterweight to make Brazil look like it is racially enlightened. White Brazilians are often very defensive about racial inequality, while Afro-Brazilians are far more realistic about racial inequalities. Brazilians in general sooth themselves with their "feel-good" myth of racial harmony and a color-blind society, while many Americans are hyper-sensitive about racial issues. Very broadly speaking--and from my American perspective--I'd say this: on a social "street level" way Afro-Brazilians are more integrated into Brazilian society, but economically, legally and politically Afro-Americans are far more integrated into American society and have many more opportunities and choices.

Afro-Brazilians

This one is priceless.

Don't forget the Portuguese were dominated and sporned by the Moors for over 500 years. And waited 20 years later than the rest of the world to abolish slavery.

"The November 25th (2006) murder of Sean Bell by the New York Police Department was just another incident in a long line of injustices experienced by the black community in cases involving the police. Bell was to be married only hours after he was killed in a hail of 50 bullets fired at him by police officers who believed he and his two friends were armed. "

The author forgot to mention the intended groom tried to run down the police with his car.

Don't forget the Portuguese were dominated and sporned by the Moors for over 500 years. And waited 20 years later than the rest of the world to abolish slavery.

Rewriting history? Portugal, as any other country in Europe, suffered the influence of many peoples, among tem the Moors. If you are black then you just proved that american blacks are racists, and use the same ficticious notion of "racial purity" as a Neo Nazi would.

BTW, the majority of blacks were already free by the time the slavery was abolished (small details that make all the difference) and Brazil never had a Ku Klux Klan, public lynchings, and anything of the like.

What is disturbing about this talk it's not the fact that Moors are involved, but that you really take this race thing seriously.

"The author forgot to mention the intended groom tried to run down the police with his car."

Is that actually true or is it what the police said to justify their actions? A lot was also said by the police in New Orleans to justify the Katrina bridge shootings. However, the investigations have shown otherwise including the fact that there were no police in need of help on the bridge---the reason the police gave that began the whole incident in the first place.
In other words, let the investigation of the New York shootings take place before classifying the incident one way or the other.

Good point - wiat until the grand jury sorts it out and the investigation is completed. But another interesting fact is that Dectective Isnora was one of the police firing and he is a black policman. These things are always sad.

I grew up in Brazil and I have an extensive family
there.
As a kid, I remember having lots of black friends who had
nicknames as "Joe Preto", "Negao" etc and it never occur to me
that those names were given out of any prejudice.

At the same time, when I cousin of mine married a "mulato" was
a scandal in the family.

My brother married also a darker skin girl. They have a beautiful baby
together and when I ask my dad about them he says that
the baby is getting whiter and therefore cuter everyday...

That alone tells you about their disguised racism.. and they
think those comments are just fine.

Unbelievable.

As a kid, I remember having lots of black friends who had
nicknames as "Joe Preto", "Negao" etc and it never occur to me
that those names were given out of any prejudice.

Because they weren't. Since when calling someone Negão is racism? Isn't the person black? Is it racism to call black people black in the US?

A Brazilian-born American

That tells a lot about your opinons, ex-brazilian.

I don't see how this:

Don't forget the Portuguese were dominated and sporned by the Moors for over 500 years. And waited 20 years later than the rest of the world to abolish slavery.


Proves this:
.
If you are black then you just proved that american blacks are racists, and use the same ficticious notion of "racial purity" as a Neo Nazi would.

Does anybody?

- If Brazil is less racist than America, please advise how many Black Brazilians politicians have been elected by the population at the Senate and Congress. In an article of a few years ago it said : "In Congress, only 12 of the 513 members of the Chamber of Deputies and two of the 81 senators are of African ancestry."

Knowing that near 50 % of the Brazilian population is Afro-Brazilian, it is curious than even non whites votes....for whites !
This same article also said :" But black pride has not taken root in Brazil outside of African-culture centers like Salvador, the nation's colonial-era capital. Many Afro-Brazilians simply deny they are black - a 1998 census found more than 300 descriptions for skin color, including ``cinnamon,'' ``coffee-with-milk,'' ``blue,'' even ``encardido,'' the Portuguese word for ``filthy.''


Although I tend to overall agree with Mark's article, it is quite sad that Mark gives a lot of stats with the Brazilian Police
killings and against the students, because these Murders were NOT specifically against blacks but mostly against poors.

Therefore it is more a social exclusion against the majority of the population than "only" color racism.
The Death squads are not killing more black children, than "tanned" or white children.
Their only common denomination is poverty and being street children.. Quite a difference with what the article's author
has written.
Therefore mixing and/or confusing Racism with Opression in an analysis is not only wrong but also very dangerous.

Finally below are 2 an interesting explanation of the racism difference in Brazil and America :

"Although racial discrimination is a crime in Brazil and in the USA, help-wanted ads in Brazil often require "good appearance'' - which is widely taken as code for white"
"From the racial viewpoint, Brazil and the USA are different - there, whites and blacks are equal but live separately; here, they are together but unequal.''

Because they weren't. Since when calling someone Negão is racism? Isn't the person black? Is it racism to call black people black in the US?

That was I was trying to say: the names were just descriptive and use in a very nice way.

My point was: In Brazil "black is ok as long as it does not happen in my family". I am not an expert just
contributing to this discussion with my experiences.

Cheers

Knowing that near 50 % of the Brazilian population is Afro-Brazilian, it is curious than even non whites votes....for whites !
This same article also said :" But black pride has not taken root in Brazil outside of African-culture centers like Salvador, the nation's colonial-era capital. Many Afro-Brazilians simply deny they are black - a 1998 census found more than 300 descriptions for skin color, including ``cinnamon,'' ``coffee-with-milk,'' ``blue,'' even ``encardido,'' the Portuguese word for ``filthy.''

WTF! The European trash talking about Brazil! hahahahahaha

I can conceive americans with their cluelessness talking about Brazil, BUT an European with people taking swastikas to football stadiums and all, and killing immigrant.... bwahahhahahahahahahha

I noticed you already labeled those of Salvador as "blacks in denial". People are what they are. BTW, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS AFRO-BRAZILIANS. There's only Brazilians. This is not the US and we don't segregate people in ghettos!! Not even ghettos for the mind such as these classifications. Please keep your binary mind in Europe where it belongs.

What's up with this idiot "brazilian"? Take a chill pill. Brazil is just as racist as anywhere I have ever been and people like you only make the problem worse. I'll bet you went to school during the military years when all we learned was how wonderful Brazil was. Throw away those history books and try reading some written by someone other than politicians.

-A Brazilian-born American, there is clearly an inability to see what is in one's own yard, neighborhood and town as for what it is. My mulato friends do not think what they say to me about someone who is more black than they as being racist. To me, what they say sometimes seems more viciously so than what I've ever encountered. If you were to ask them if they are racist you can bet on the answer you would receive. My black friends who speak hatefully towards the white Portugues in thier midsts don't distinguish that their great separation of class is at the root, not anyones color. Do they speak such towards filthy rich black foreigners? Possibly but I don't think so.

As for a former head of a major derivatives trading desk on Wall Street ( I am African-American, by the way), I was responsible for covering Latin American clients, mostly Brazilian, Argentine and Mexican banks.

One anecdote about Brazil says it all. For about a year and a half, I had been dealing with a major Brazilian bank and we helped them make quite a bit of $$$ on fixed income convergence trades. I decided to take a trip to Brazil to meet with this client in particular and thank them for their business, as we also made a handsome profit on their trades. When I arrived at their offices, the first thing that struck me was the funny look I got in the elevator going up. I did not make much of it but in hindsight I realized that the few blacks who entered the building when I did headed straight to a different set of elevators. Anyway, when I got to the reception area, I introduced myself in approximate Portuguese ( I am fluent in French and Spanish, so I was able to learn stock Portuguese sentences to avoid the "ugly American" stereotype) and asked for the Vice President with whom I had dealt with for about 18 months without ever meeting him. The receptionist called him and and told me he would arrive right away as his office was close. So I stood by her desk and waited. A minute later, a white, blond Brazilian male came up, stood right next to me and asked the receptionist where his American guest was. Mind you, there were only THREE people in the reception area at the time: my client, the receptionist, and me. She smiled sheepishly and pointed to me. I think it took him AT LEAST 30 seconds to figure out that the trader who had been helping him this whole time was black. The look on his face said it all, although he recovered from the shock and treated me graciously.

Wall Street is not exactly integration heaven, but I doubt a white American banker in this day and age would have had the same reaction. Funny enough, I ran into this scenario a few times in Brazil but NEVER in Mexico and Argentina.

A well executed article, though I have a few problems with some of the stats. Only two questions, what is the percentage of white on white killings versus black on black killings in both countries? Does anyone think that this statistic has any bearings on this article or race problems in general?

I was just speaking with a Priest from Chile the other evening, he clearly had what would be considered dark mestizo features, he has lived in the United States well over a decade and spent years in Brazil (in Rio and some small town outside of Sao Paulo). He was telling me that Brazil is a country of contrast wherein the Rich neighborhoods are right beside the poor favelas. The people he said are very social, much more so than the Chilean or U.S. character. He spoke of two Priest friends of his being robbed (home invasion) and laughed when he spoke of himself being robbed on the streets of Brazil once for his glasses that had a gold color rim. He however corrected me firmly, that it was not something a Priest was going to face all the time and could happen in the U.S., when I expressed a bit of shock or cultural ethno-centric superiority in that Priests would be robbed. I asked him about his view on race in Brazil and he seemed slightly irritated by the question, and stated that he really believes race is less an issue in Brazil and the economic divide is the greater issue, he seemed irritated and made clear that the Brazilian people are so very mixed. He stated in his opinion the United States has far more racial issues than both Brazil or Chile.

Now, asking him about Rio's famous "body culture" he said yes you see women on the beaches in small bikinis and so forth, but he made certain to state that it was important to understand it was their culture. He said that when you first go their your eye are big and you have that culture shock mixed with lust. He said however that it was normal for the Brazilians in Rio and they did not look upon the lesser clothed human body as wide eyed as I would coming from my culture.

--
--

I have a few questions though... if most Black American's ancestral lines run not from Brazil but from West Africa then why do so many black Americans care so much about what goes on in Brazil more than in say Nigeria, Liberia, or Sierra Leone? Why do so many black Americans seem to want to "fix" say Rio but let Baltimore, Detroit, Lagos, and Free Town go to hell? One might respond back and say because black Americans have more geographically and historically in common with black Brazilians. This I could accept but for one thing: why is it black Americans will typically write only glowing things (things to make black Americans feel pride in their ancestral line and racial color group) about black African societies be they in Nigeria or elsewhere but turn around and berate Brazil and the Brazilian people for her injustice and cultural primitiveness? It's often projected that the mulatto and mixed-race person is the racially confused, sell-out, or racial tyrant working for the white tyrant. I will not deny mulattoes and or mixed-race peoples are to be found filling all those descriptions in every page of history. Yet I can not get over the fact that mulattoes and mixed-race peoples to my knowledge have not run a genocide anywhere on the globe yet. However, we know in the 20th century, whites had a major genocide on whites in Europe and the century closed with blacks having a major genocide on blacks in Africa. Blacks want to write and frame relevant history in such a way that gives black peoples through out the world pride. White people wish to do the same thing with white peoples. As a person mixed-race, as a person mulatto, let me offer a "pride" history (rather than a negative history) in relation to mixed-race peoples... mixed-race Brazilians have conducted no genocide on anyone. They have not formed Ku Klux Klans, they have not systematically conducted a Tuskgee Experiment (spelling?), they have not sent whole peoples to the gas chambers, they have not chopped down 800,000 people in about 30 days time with machetes. Mixed-race peoples in Brazil in all their colors from white to black have welcomed diverse racial and ethnic groups of people into their massive metropolitans (such as Sao Paulo and Rio) just New York and Lagos has. While it has become fashionable in contemporary times to credit the United States for being "multi-cultural," black African societies as wise and progressive, and Islamic Eastern metropolitans as meccas of racial and religious tolerance, and then to write on large mixed-race traditionally Catholic influenced societies such as Mexico and Brazil as being the epitome of intolerance, injustice, backwardness, brutality and racially explosive in on form or another... I reject all this hyper-negative painting of mestizo Mexico, mulatto Brazil, and moreno led both as laughable to truth and only the sight of the blind.

I have a few questions though... if most Black American's ancestral lines run not from Brazil but from West Africa then why do so many black Americans care so much about what goes on in Brazil more than in say Nigeria, Liberia, or Sierra Leone?

I don't know for sure but I think many of the Blacks in America feel they share some of the same experiences. Most of the blacks that came to America arrived via the slave trade.
Most of the blacks in Brazil most likely came from West Africa as well via the slave trade.

I think all mankind is capable of atrocities. Mixed people as well. El Salvador had a brutal war.(The drug war is as brutal as many other wars)

I don't know for sure but I think many of the Blacks in America feel they share some of the same experiences. Most of the blacks that came to America arrived via the slave trade.
Most of the blacks in Brazil most likely came from West Africa as well via the slave trade.

I am more pragmatic, I think it's about political power and money. Using the "race issue" they can gather more political support and more money than they would without it. Brazil and the brazilian society poses a threat to such business model. So in order to "keep this business going" they need to make it look like Brazil is "even worse" than US.

Besides, there's always the case of portraying latin american countries are crappy places where everything bad happens and the US as an example to the world where everything is perfect. I think it hurts their patriotic ego that the US might not be as good as they would like it to be.

Questions for the commentator "A Brazilian":

1. Why are virtually all the people working in shops/lojas in shopping centers in Salvador and other cities white?
2. Why are almost all the bank tellers and employees in banks in Salvador and other cities white?
3. Why are there so few black or mulatto politicians in Brazil, where about 50% of the population is of African descent?
4. Why are almost all the actors on Brazilian telenovelas white, except the maids, who are black?
Please don't tell us there is no racism in Brazil!

I can't answer incorrect questions, they would have only incorrect answers. First you will need to come up with data to back those assumptions of yours.

"I have a few questions though... if most Black American's ancestral lines run not from Brazil but from West Africa then why do so many black Americans care so much about what goes on in Brazil more than in say Nigeria, Liberia, or Sierra Leone?"

But who says that the above quote is true? I for one don't think that is the case at all and the author has it wrong. As much as there have been some articles lately on black men (a very well-defined sub-group, mind you) going to Brazil for what is essentially sex tourism, joining in the process a large number of non-blacks engaging in the same trade, the fact of the matter is that Brazil is NOT from my observation in my communities (Miami and New York) anywhere near the top of our concerns.

Among the non-scientific benchmarks I use to base my statement are the following:
1. The Congressional Black Caucus is most active in African and Caribbean issues on the international front (I cannot remember the last time they said anything about Brazil), but by and large, as elected reps, they do try to bring home the bacon;
2. The vast majority of black churches involved in humanitarian causes schedule trips primarily to African and the Caribbean (Jamaica, Barbados, Haiti, etc.), not to Brazil
3. Discussions in college business conferences I have attended (mostly on the Eastern seaboard) have been about local issues and Africa, most certainly not Brazil.

In a nutshell, I believe our order of priorities is still: 1) the betterment of our communities and that of blacks in the US; 2) concern about our ancestral land, i.e. Africa; and 3) concern about other countries with black populations, i.e. the Caribbean. For specific black immigrant groups to the US, this order will most certainly be different, but by and large, African-Americans do care about local issues first and global/international issues second on the whole.

It is important to remember that there are SIGNIFICANT differences between black Americans and Brazilians:
1. Religion: we are mostly protestant whereas they are catholics
2. Language: we black Americans have not embraced foreign languages the way we should have, I must admit, so the Portuguese/English dvide is a major barrier to developing ties between ourselves
3. Political maturity: for all the talk of racial harmony in Brazil, the fact of the matter is that it works AS LONG AS blacks agree to stay in "their place" and not rock the boat. All the Jim Crow stuff that is allowed in Brazil ("good appearance" issue, overt racism in employment and education, etc.) will not work in the US today. No matter what one's view is on the issue, the civil rights movement in the US, as imperfect as it may have been, allowed us to make strides that blacks in Brazil have not made yet.

Simply put, I will take the US over Brazil any day as a black person.

written by GC, 2007-01-12 16:39:12

It is important to remember that there are SIGNIFICANT differences between black Americans and Brazilians:
1. Religion: we are mostly protestant whereas they are catholics
2. Language: we black Americans have not embraced foreign languages the way we should have, I must admit, so the Portuguese/English dvide is a major barrier to developing ties between ourselves
3. Political maturity: for all the talk of racial harmony in Brazil, the fact of the matter is that it works AS LONG AS blacks agree to stay in "their place" and not rock the boat. All the Jim Crow stuff that is allowed in Brazil ("good appearance" issue, overt racism in employment and education, etc.) will not work in the US today. No matter what one's view is on the issue, the civil rights movement in the US, as imperfect as it may have been, allowed us to make strides that blacks in Brazil have not made yet.

Simply put, I will take the US over Brazil any day as a black person.

I like your post. I'm not sure I agree with every exact aspect of it but I do like it nonetheless.

I especially like of your post what I placed in bold. I came up in the U.S. as Catholic with the white side of my family Catholic, German, and traced history to the ancient Roman settlement of Trier Germany. Hell, the surname of my Germanic grandfathers side is Roman. No doubt our peoples had associations or lineages with the peoples of Charles "the hammer" Martel. The black side of my family is vastly Protestant and due to the historical circumstances of slavery in the U.S. we no little to nothing about that ancestral line extending into the coasts of Africa. So "black" becomes the donned label and identity (like "white" is in the U.S. but more so) and whatever cultural creations the black American community created for itself post-Africa. Seeing both sides I could see growing up the very different methods of thought. It relates even to racial matters. Catholics can be very racist, however due to their method of thought, civility is more ethnocentric and hence "acquirable" than the Calvinist Protestant method of thought which places heavy emphasis on genetics. So the dark mestizo Mexican or the black Brazilian is more "civilized" and esteemed to the degree they assimilate into the Eurocentric Latin Catholic paradigm - to the point they are more esteemed than a white pagan or a white Chechen Muslim. From my experience in the Protestant method of thought genetics are more the primary concern regarding "esteem" and "civility."

One of Brazil's greatest flaws - especially for mulatto and black Brazilians - is their lack of political savy or political "maturity." Brazil seems to have very aristocratic structures, and in this way her Catholic background I would suspect is more her weakness than her strength. Protestant view of creating a better world, of internal constant reformations, lends her culturally in the political sphere to question wherein her society is at and to address injustices as the times arise prepared to do so. Catholic mind set tends to see a better world in what has been in the past or what always been so to speak - in other words she is more traditional. While Liberation Theology changed some of this culturally in Latin America over the decades, I still think perhaps "traditional" mindset fosters much of the socio-political views in Latin America. Brazil however by all means is much, much, less "conservative" than many predominately Catholic nations. Nonetheless...

Personally I don't wish to see any racial group - so to speak - of people suffer. I would like to see everyone partake in the fruits and wealth and esteems of nations and this earth.

But as you see the U.S. as a better place for black peoples and yourself over Brazil, I see Brazil as a better place for mulattoes and mixed-race peoples and myself over the United States. But then this is another problem I have with American (USA) based discussions on race, it tends to see things in the binary view point of black vs white, where mixed-race peoples as such have little room or recognition in that paradigm of "race." Brazilian culture in U.S. based discussion is rarely (or perhaps never) approached from mixed-race paradigm of vision. American (USA) based discussions on race however have a history of looking through both Eurocentric lenses and Afrocentric lenses when assessing and creating judgments.

Hey joao Heringer; hows Somalia these days? do you know what your fellowmen are doing with the BLACKS there?

I think you raised a very interesting point about the perception of "race" in the US versus Brazil. The notion of race in the US, and specifically the binary black/white issue, has its roots in the "one drop rule", a rule established during the Jim Crow era in many states to protect the purity of the white race by setting an "objective" definition of what it means to be white. The one drop rule basically stated that if one of your ancestors was black, going back three or four generations depending on the state, then you were black. And we have not recovered from it. The absudity of this rule made it such that whole families became black overnight simply because a great-great-grandparent happened to be black or mixed. It gave rise to commissions being set up to examine the lineage and heredity of "dubious"whites. You get the drift. To this day, we have internalized this rule which ironically makes the white heritage of any mixed individual the weak heritage as it is considered to be subsumed in the "dominant" non-white heritage, be it black, Latino, or Asian.

I would make two points about this:

1) It is ironic that the one-drop rule raised its ugly head during Jim Crow, more specifically at the beginning of the 20th century. Before that, American society did recognize and accept the existence of "mulattoes" as a group;

2) with the increasing diversity in the US, changing demographics due to disparate birth rates, and the increasing number of mixed marriages, it is a fact that the notions of black, white, Asian, Latino, etc. may lose their importance within a century or two in the US. We will be long dead by then, but it is a fact. It is also worth noting that there is a nascent movement in the US to recognize biracial people, no matter the mix, as a separate group: neither black, nor white, nor Asian, nor Latino, but rather representing the "true" American melting pot. It is highly unlikely that this movement will develop anytime soon in the deep South or in conservative areas of the US, but it is certainly taking off in major cities. One of my former college classmates, who is herself biracial (black/white), is a scholar on biracialism in the US so I have learned quite a bit from her on that topic.

Last but not least, and someone else pointed this out earlier, we should not forget that economic status also defines one's place in society alongside race. I think that is especially true in Brazil and in other societies where slavery existed (Colombia, Venezuela, the Caribbean, etc.) I am curious as to where mulattoes and mixed-race people in Brazil fit in that scheme. Are they any more accepted and successful than blacks? I have a hard time picturing this, but I could be wrong. My sense is that Brazil and many other countries establish more a of "caste" than a "class" system where the partitions are so rigid that the vast majority of blacks and or/poor people will never be allowed to break through those partitions. I think US society is quite a bit more fluid and a lot more forgiving in that respect. Even the notion of the US "underclass" that was so bandied about in the 80's has basically disappeared.

Even the notion of the US "underclass" that was so bandied about in the 80's has basically disappeared

are you saying in America poor ppl are not diminished or prejudiced anymore? (I never heard so much non compassion for ppl who don't own a house and are called trailler white trash) I think the widening of the economic gap in US makes this unhappy feature more strong.About the articles subject I, as many, would like to hear your opinions on the recent civilian killing by Americcan troops in Somalia. I think, persons, why does US always attack weak countries and peoples? Don't you ppl get involved with those blacks as well or just the mixed blacks in Brazil get your attention?

"I can't answer incorrect questions, they would have only incorrect answers. First you will need to come up with data to back those assumptions of yours".

Assumptions? No, they are my personal observations, and anyone--including you--can make the same observation....unless, of course, you are so defensive you can not see what is infront of your face.

In sheer numbers, the current situation in Brazil today is far worst than any period of human rights violations in US history.


Taking it out of context, yes. With an honest analysis, no.


Actually it is, but thanks for the comment.

You wrote: "are you saying in America poor ppl are not diminished or prejudiced anymore? (I never heard so much non compassion for ppl who don't own a house and are called trailler white trash)"

I answer: not at all. Please re-read what I wrote. I am simply saying that there has been progress in the US. However, prejudice exists everywhere and it is certainly not dead in the US. Nor is it in Brazil, Europe, Africa, Asia or wherever else. Human nature drives us to always look for a group that we can oppress. Sad but true.

You wrote: "I think the widening of the economic gap in US makes this unhappy feature more strong."

OK. Let's talk about the economic gap in Brazil for a second. If it is bad in the US, I cannot imagine what the gap is between a resident of the notorious favelas or members of the landless movement, on the one hand, and the super-wealthy Brazilians I sometimes see driving around in Mercedes S600s in Florida. You see my point? Two can play that game, so it is not really a useful comment to make.

You wrote: "About the articles subject I, as many, would like to hear your opinions on the recent civilian killing by Americcan troops in Somalia. I think, persons, why does US always attack weak countries and peoples? Don't you ppl get involved with those blacks as well or just the mixed blacks in Brazil get your attention?"

Oh, please! What does Somalia have to do with anything? I mean, why does a segment of Brazilian society always seem to be murdering and maiming people in its quest for expansion in the Amazonian Basin? Why bother killing the first inhabitants of the land, the natives? Why bother killing an American nun in the process? What did she do to deserve such a fate? Get my drift? Senseless killings are not the monopoly of the US.

American foreign policy has been great at times (John Kennedy's Alliance for Progress, the Peace Corps, the Marshall Plan, the Fulbright Scholarship program, etc.) and disastrous at times. If anything, throughout the years, we have dished out death and destruction in equal portions around the globe (Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, North Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, etc.) so deaths of civilians in Somalia are most certainly not a black-versus-white thing per se, no matter how you spin it. Again, not a useful point to make.

As for attention to mixed blacks in Brazil (interesting choice of words, by the way, why not "mixed whites"? could this be a Freudian slip?) read my earlier post on priorities in the African-American communities I know. Brazil is certainly NOT the top of my priorities. But it is an interesting intellectual discussion when the points made are sensible. When on the other hand, someone comes out with gutter-level anti-American sentiments that are not really germane to the discussion, hey, they get knocked around. 'Nuff said.

The US celebrates next Monday (January 16th) the assassination aniversary of Dr. Martin Luther King killed by an race obsessed white supremacist. Dr. King spent his life fighting racial inequalities in the United States.

Did I mention racism in the US? Nouf Said...

Costinha

Two things:

1. We celebrate MLK's BIRTHDAY, not his assassination (which occurred on April 4, 196. And the holiday is on January 15, not 16. Maybe you should get such a simple fact straight.

2. Who said there was no racism in the US?

If you are going to use US colloquial expressions, at least spell them well. 'NUFF SAID ...
^^^^^
You people are really a piece of work. At least make it a point to read people's posts instead of making inferences that are just not there.

But I will say it again:

AS A BLACK PERSON, I will take life in the US with all its imperfections including racism ANY DAY over life in Brazil with all of its imperfections including racism .

If you are not black and keep posting the same drivel about how Brazil is so great for blacks, then maybe you should try to live as a black person in your country for a day. Maybe you will understand. But I seriously doubt that anyone would want to go through that exercise for a minute, much less a day. That says it all, doesn't it?

"I have a few questions though... if most Black American's ancestral lines run not from Brazil but from West Africa then why do so many black Americans care so much about what goes on in Brazil" - e harmony

E - Harmony, There is no obsession with what goes on in Brazil by black Americans. The great majority have very little interest. This is a Brazil forum so the discussions will center around Brazilian things. Having said that, Brazil is fascinating to Black Americans that have travelled there because it is billed as a color-blind society without racism and such. As most if not all Black posters have tried to state here on this forum is that this is in fact not true. (Just like everywhere else in the world) Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining about it or making a condemnation. I'm just making an observation.

you're wasting your breath. There are several idiots here that take written words on a page and twist and tort them to mean something totally different, put words in your mouth, make no sense whatsoever. They're consistant at doing it, makes you wonder, are they really that ignorant, or do they have other objectives.

We all love Brasil especially the (______fill in your 10 favorite things) Hey Yo! This world means nothing without BRASIL!

“If you are going to use US colloquial expressions, at least spell them well. 'NUFF SAID”

Hehehe… At least I can do it in English, can you do it in Portuguese?


“You people are really a piece of work. At least make it a point to read people's posts instead of making inferences that are just not there.”

Hehehe… Riiiiight! What are your qualifications to make inferences about Brasil?

“AS A BLACK PERSON, I will take life in the US with all its imperfections including racism ANY DAY over life in Brazil with all of its imperfections including racism .”

Please do us a favor and stay up there… Brasil does not need inconsequential racist black americans here such as you!

You people (americansssss) are really a piece of work and that’s why they bombed “once again” your embassy (spy nest) in Athens, Greece.

Hehehe…..Nouf Said!


PS: You looked intelligent until you opened your mouth mr. black americaaannnn.

You people (americansssss) are really a piece of work and that’s why they bombed “once again” your embassy (spy nest) in Athens, Greece.

At least it's others bombing U.S. interests, and not our own people in the streets killing each other and burning buses killing women and children.

Costinha, what about the war that occurs in Brazil everyday, where more people are murdered and killed --Brazilians killing Brazilains--than in many civil wars? Don't forget to look in your own quintal. . (escrito por um Americano--quem adora o Brasil, tanto as coisas boas quanto as coisas ruins--quem SIM pode escrever, falar e ler em portugues!

[you're wasting your breath. There are several idiots here that take written words on a page and twist and tort them to mean something totally different, put words in your mouth, make no sense whatsoever. They're consistant at doing it, makes you wonder, are they really that ignorant, or do they have other objectives. ]

I agree. Especially[or do they have other objectives]

Jesus, what important and germane topics being discussed here lately. Which country is the most racist in terms of treatment of blacks, whites, hispanics, etc., as if that is somehow the net worth of both countries. This site is nothing more than a gathering of degenerate xenophobes with nothing better to do than trade barbs and it serves as a wonderful breeding ground for insults from that mental pygmy Costinha. One can only wonder if that freak tortures small animals in mommy's basement and I often suspect is so demented that it (this person qualifies as "it" from now on) would not hesitate to kill Americans just for fun. Everytime I see your posts I feel sorry for you. It takes a lot out of a person to be so full of hate and anger. It shortens your life and people around you pick up on the fact that you're evil. Whoever molested you or beat you as a child is responsible for your sad mental state. I hope you get the help you need and soon before we find out that body parts have been discovered in your freezer.

Bienchido, , what about the war that occurs in the United States everyday, where more people are murdered and killed --Americaaans killing Americaaans—more than in the civil war, Korean War, Vietnam War, Panama Invasion, Grenada Invasion, Somalia War, Iraq War? Shall I enumerate some more?

One thing I know for sure, when it comes to violence the united states has no moral high ground to preach to anyone on this earth. You folks wrote the book on state based terrorism.

Chicano gringo wanabe… U`RE FAT, UGLY AND SHAMELESS. CAN I BARF IN YOUR MOUTH?

One more thing: If I want to hear from a rat-faced tard-popsicle, I'll either spit raw flem at you or waltz over there and piss on you. Until then, stick your head into your infected mange and let the stench knock you out!

Hehehe....Good day my "Tankskilling" americaan friends.... Hehehehe

Costinha. As an American I say o siguente: America sucks. Bad is bad in America, and bad is bad in Brazil. Tomara voce pudesse ser tao honesto.

Costinha plays his version of the one note samba. None is so blind as he that will not see.

African-American spending power has reached $572 billion, equivalents to the 11th largest economy in the world. I googled "world's largest economies" and Brazil showed at 11th. Therefore the 40 million Blacks in America have the same financial clout as all of Brazil.

My wife and I (both African-Americans) are living great in America! I have an M.B.A. and my wife is a medical doctor. I can't imagine Brazil providing the opportunies for us to have a 4,000 sq foot primary home and the ability for us to make roughly $250,000.00 a year. If Brazilians think my wife and I are the exceptions we are not. In the US there are plenty of Blacks like us; not just in our families but also in our social circles.

Good point, Lyle.

The problem is that some white Brazilians want to believe that the United States in 2006 is the same as it was in 1806 or 1906 so that they don't have to compare their own lack of progress.

written by GC, 2007-01-12 21:21:46

2) with the increasing diversity in the US, changing demographics due to disparate birth rates, and the increasing number of mixed marriages, it is a fact that the notions of black, white, Asian, Latino, etc. may lose their importance within a century or two in the US. We will be long dead by then, but it is a fact.

That is then, that is not today.

First of all Lyle, you must learn to spell opportunities then prove that you can make $250,000.00 a year in the US of A. God, illigally we could all be making that kind of money.

Just a note for the Brazilian popoulation, not all americans make that kind fo an yearly income. The majority are volunteering to join the military to earn a little bit of money for their families - and look at where it is taking them, and in most cases the return trip home is in a body-bag or missing a limb or two.

I agree with Lyle, that so much could be improved in Brazil, but lets not say that all of americans live like you, and please don't let Mr. Bush find out, you will be taxed to death.

written by Justa Joe, 2007-01-13 08:44:47

E - Harmony, There is no obsession with what goes on in Brazil by black Americans. The great majority have very little interest. This is a Brazil forum so the discussions will center around Brazilian things. Having said that, Brazil is fascinating to Black Americans that have travelled there because it is billed as a color-blind society without racism and such. As most if not all Black posters have tried to state here on this forum is that this is in fact not true. (Just like everywhere else in the world) Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining about it or making a condemnation. I'm just making an observation.

In relation to highlight: That is the center or vortex of my point. This is a site geared toward Brazilians and Brazilian-philes. Do black Americans and gringos in general that think lowly of Iran seek out Iranian sites? Do they seek out Russophile sites if they think lowly of Russia? What about Nigerian sites if they think lowly of the large nation state of Nigeria?

Brazil does not claim to be colorblind they claim the exact opposite, they claim to utilize descriptive labels for peoples of all various colors and features, but they claim to accept them all as part of one human race. In other words Brazil claims to embrace and relish in diversity. Poverty does not equal racism, Italians where poor in the slums of Naples not because of racism. There are poor peoples in Nigeria, China, Tibet, and one found poverty in the Neatherlands.

Brazil has a socio-economic history not just limited to racial relations of the Trans-Atlantic-Slave trade. Was the United States under a right-wing dictatorship in the 1970's and 80's? Was Brazil under one? Both do not have the same socio-economic history. Brazilians of all colors eat the same foods, love the same samba, speak the same way if they hail from the same socio-economic level. In contrast, in the United States while black Americans hail from the same geographically defined nation state as white Americans, and while both share some of the same similar cultural traditions and traits, they both live vastly different in many respects even when comparing white and blacks of the same socio-economic level. Black middle class Americans in dialect, foods eaten, dance, outlook and so on are as far a way from white middle class Americans in those same things as New York is from L.A.

written by Lyle Davis, 2007-01-13 23:47:31

African-American spending power has reached $572 billion, equivalents to the 11th largest economy in the world. I googled "world's largest economies" and Brazil showed at 11th. Therefore the 40 million Blacks in America have the same financial clout as all of Brazil.

My wife and I (both African-Americans) are living great in America! I have an M.B.A. and my wife is a medical doctor. I can't imagine Brazil providing the opportunies for us to have a 4,000 sq foot primary home and the ability for us to make roughly $250,000.00 a year. If Brazilians think my wife and I are the exceptions we are not. In the US there are plenty of Blacks like us; not just in our families but also in our social circles.

Isn't the U.S. dollar worth a lot more then the Brazilian Real?

@ bold: Yeah... in your little elite social circle while the bulk of black males die off in prisons, in street violence, from overdoses on narcotics, from HIV, diabetes, and heart disease.

--
--

Brazilians, whether you are rich, middle class, or poor, be you Brazilian and Japanese, Lebanese, Thai, Italian, German, clara morena, mulatto, pardo or preto, be you male, female, or of the cosmopolitan third gender, you all are Brazilian. Your society is already highly fractured by classism do not then begin to fracture yourselves along race. White neighborhoods in the U.S. don't want blacks moving in, black peoples in the U.S. don't like Koreans or Arabs (whom they refer to as "A-Rabs") and a battle over who can be the paradoxical "biggest minority" is beginning to build between blacks and Latinos in the U.S. because of money and sympathy involved in the title holders position.

You and much of Latin America listened to the United States in the past, as they bragged about what they had and treated you with trinkets for your gold like the Europeans did to Africa. These threads should confirm one thing to the reasonable mined Brazilian regarding Latin American socio-related politics: stick close to Evo Morales; stick close to Hugo Chavez; and you better damn well stick close to China. Why? Because why seek a few to brag about like an uneducated serf in the 1600's a subject to his Lords? The whole point of switching from the socio-structures of "subjects" to "citizens" was so that everyone could be allowed a material and social improvement in their lives. My point is seek to "raise" everyone up not just a few.

I'm fortunate to live more materially comfortable then a large number of poor Brazilians. However it means no more than what it means, and I respect Brazilians peoples even if they speak a language I don't, have slanted eyes telling of a some Japanese ancestry, and live in a cardboard box. I don't know and I don't understand everything, so I'm sure Brazilian peoples be they rich or poor have things to offer me materially, intellectually, or even emotionally.

Man can not live off of bread alone.

Vengaboys - To Brazil: http://grouper.com/video/Media...id=1673777 (youtube video)

CNN News report on growing racial animosity between black peoples and Latino immigrants in Southern California. A young, little, black girl was killed by Latino thugs just because she was black. This is a real picture into the U.S. not the propaganda fed on here of most U.S. citizens living in quarter million dollar homes and a diverse racial society where everyone lives par excellent in assimilation and harmony with each other 100 times better than that of Brazil, or where black American neighborhoods are overwhelmingly wealthy and they only compete with the most wealthiest white, East Indian, and educated Chinese American (USA) professionals.

Video: http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/s...9&src=news (Yahoo video)

Here's an Asian site with a thread discussing the CNN video of Southern California racial tensions between blacks and Latinos. It's a decent glimpse into U.S. racial relations.
Link: http://www.asiafinest.com/foru...03486&st=0

You'll note one member in that thread states:

LOL The Mexicans must be jealous because the blacks be tapping that Latina @ss....LoL

As an Asian this does not concern me... I could care less what Tyrone and Pedro do to each other.

But the beaners seem like the source of the problem here.

For you Brazilians that don't know U.S. culture, vernacular, idioms, or particular popular disparaging remarks... the word "beaner" is an insulting way to refer to a Mexican. Usage of the word names "Tyrone" and "Pedro" are meant as implied stereotypical slights to black Americans and Latino Americans.

May I, as a layman say something?

Before any Brazilian started engaging in a debate whether Brazil is a racist or a prejudicial country, I suggested they first read "Macunaíma" by Mario de Andrade.

Only then could they say something or shut their traps for good.

Can any Brazilian explain to me why our passport was green and is now blue?

MACUNAIMA HAS THE ANSWER.

I know most of us hate reading books so I will give you an outline:

We hate being Brazilians.

We hate having being born in this God forsaken place, but we still brag about this tropical hell trying to comfort ourselves that at least we have good weather, no hurricanes, no tornadoes et cetera as if that is what life is all about: coconut trees, sunshine, “bundas”, seaside, beer and carnival.

Brazil is a prejudicial and racist country.

If a black person sends a CV it goes straight to the wastebasket.

I know people who work in big companies and confirmed my suspicions.

They even ask CV with photo.

If we had pride in this place we would not be on one hand trying to build the USA here and attacking it from the other.

I bet Freud would hack his brain understand this complex.

We are all have our problems and I can only talk about mine.

Let the American take care of theirs.

I am just a Brazilian who hates all this hypocritical talk from my fellows’ countrymen.

Let us discuss ways to make things better.

So far, I have read Brazilians attacking the USA and American attacking Brazil and augmenting the hate for one another.

I believe people who come here to say something are deep down trying to see a better world. Instead, we get lost in petty personal wars and forget the big issue.

That is all I have to say.

The East Coast vibe is different than the West Coast.
West Coast Mexicans, Salvadorians, Central Americans and Black Americans.
The East Coast Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans, Hatians, Cubans and the Black Americans.

The East Coast. They are not at each others throats. I think that their culture is quite similar.

Brazil is not all the same as well. The countries are huge. The North of Brazil is a total different world than the South.

There are social issues everywhere. Armenians v Turks. Iran v Iraq, Jews v Muslims.
ect. ect.

The Mexican, Black problem is minor. I would even say the race issue in Brazil although a problem is minor compared to the problems of the world. I would never say that there is no problem.

"My wife and I (both African-Americans) are living great in America!"

We in Brasil certainly do not need your "racist" black american a$$es down here. Most black americans are just as racist if not more so then many anglo-saxons. The US has a proverbial obsession with race, religion, ethnicity, sexual preference, national origin, profiling, sexual perversion etc, yesterday, today and forever. That's your legacy...deal with it and leave us out of it!

Average income in america is $25K/year for household of 4 people... Hardly a confortable income in your country.

The irony is what you print in your currency "In God We Thrust"... SHAMELESS!

Costinha, don't forget to mention all the Brazilian households of 4, 5, 6 and more people living on the minimum wage of 350 (soon to be 380!!!) reais a month. Let's see....what can they afford to buy in a month? Food, medicine, clothing, gas, luz and water, transportation, school fees, etc....all on 380 reais a month!

I've given up on you e harmony. I am a 43 year-old black American and all of the vast differences you speak of between black and white americans are wildly exagerrated.
You must think every middle class black american like myself walks around like Snoop Dogg or 50 cent while all white americans are like the characters from Dallas or Dynasty. I am a light skinned black man and you would not know my race if I were talking to you on the phone. Yesterday, a spanish speaking woman mistook me for a Mexican as I was walking down the street. Black americans come in all kinds of appearances, speak all kinds of ways, have all kinds of jobs, and eat all kinds of foods.
And I have seen quite a few depictions of black and pardo brazilians and a high percentage of them if living in the U.S. would immediately be presumed to be (before they spoke) average black americans based on their appearance, which leads me to conclude the amount of interracial mixing which has occurred in Brazil--while highr than in the U.S.--nevertheless is somewhat exagerrated. And the fact Brazilians of all races eat the same foods proves nothing. Black Americans and white southerns americans all like fried chicken, mashed potatoes, lemon pie, black-eyed peas, cornbred and together have given the world jazz, blues and rock-and-roll. Yet these are the same white southerners who enslaved, lynched and oppressed them. Shared food, music and dialect prove nothing.

I think Brazilians and many other Latin Americans love to somewhat exagerrate the extent of racial problems and polarization in the U.S. so their own societies can look better by comparison. My take is there is no significant difference in the racism you have in Latin American and what exists in the U.S. Historically, whites in the U.S. expressed their racism to your face. In Latin America, they say more polite things to your face but then say horrible things about you behind your back. To sum up, different approach but same result.

Finally e-harmony, on what do you base your claims that the CNN report is a "good insight" into race relations between these groups. I have lived in Southern California--here in Los Angeles--and have never had any problems with Mexican Americans, or Asian Americans in my entire life. Occasionally I have had problems with white americans. What is your ethnic background, where do you live, and if you have visited or do live in the U.S., how long was your stay. I get the feeling you are getting your ideas about the U.S. and its black population from some poor sources or persons with an agenda.

Finally e harmony, your nonsense about the "bulk" of black american men like myself being in prison, with AIDS, diabetes, blah blah blah..... speaks for itself. Only one black american man in twenty is in jail. 2 out of ten black men and three out of ten white men in the U.S. are college educated. 40 million american blacks have almost as much collective wealth as 180 million brazilians and over 100 million Russians. They are collectively wealthier than white nations with the same populations like Poland and Argentina. You desperately want to believe all blacks in the U.S. are failures to boost your own self-esteem I suppose, or to convince non-white Latin Americans they live in a paradise because the black americans all still live in squalor.

I would suggest you read a lot more on black americans before you keep making such untrue generaliztions. If you choose not to, I am sure the White supremacists over at Stormfront would welcome you.

written by jabmalassie, 2007-01-14 14:15:21

The East Coast vibe is different than the West Coast.
West Coast Mexicans, Salvadorians, Central Americans and Black Americans.
The East Coast Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans, Hatians, Cubans and the Black Americans.

The East Coast. They are not at each others throats. I think that their culture is quite similar.

Brazil is not all the same as well. The countries are huge. The North of Brazil is a total different world than the South.

There are social issues everywhere. Armenians v Turks. Iran v Iraq, Jews v Muslims.
ect. ect.

The Mexican, Black problem is minor. I would even say the race issue in Brazil although a problem is minor compared to the problems of the world. I would never say that there is no problem.

I almost agree with everything you say. You size up the difference between East Coast United States in comparison with West Coast United States fairly good to I think. In the Midwest we had for a few decades Mexicans and Puerto Ricans - kind of almost in a way it would seem like where the West Coast met the East Coast. Back in the 1980's black Americans (I come from a black American neigborhood) in my town (within my age group) did not go over to the Latino (Mexican) side of town and the Mexicans did not come over to our side of town. To do risked being jumped by a gang and beaten. This had much to do with "Folks" vs "Peoples" gang affiliations. Any black person was automatically presumed "Folks" and any Latino (Mexican or Puerto Rican) was presumed to be "Peoples" (specifically Latin Kings). However, the Puerto Rican neighborhood in my town was right next to a black neighborhood and they pretty much "shared" the neighborhoods together. Those were "Folks" neighborhoods. Puerto Ricans on the other side of town with Mexicans were generally Latin Kings however. Today though it is much different, it is almost like invisible walls have fallen down and many black peoples and Asians have moved over into the Mexican side of town. Its a very multi-racial and multicultural neighborhood now, although the Mexican cultural and economic element still dominates. I actually train at a very Latino boxing gym. I personally find the experience good and the people cool.

written by The American Historian, 2007-01-14 19:02:23

Finally e-harmony, on what do you base your claims that the CNN report is a "good insight" into race relations between these groups. I have lived in Southern California--here in Los Angeles--and have never had any problems with Mexican Americans, or Asian Americans in my entire life. Occasionally I have had problems with white americans. What is your ethnic background, where do you live, and if you have visited or do live in the U.S., how long was your stay. I get the feeling you are getting your ideas about the U.S. and its black population from some poor sources or persons with an agenda.

I'm American born and raised, I've lived around black Americans all my life. I came up when Hip Hop clothing were monetarily cheap outfits we threw together, not the name brand expensive outfits they are today (of course we wore name brand sneakers back in the day: namely Puma), but this was all before Rap music and Hip Hop went mainstream. I don't know the Civil Rights era, I know middle class black American life and poor and middle class black American culture affected by "King Hoover" (Larry Hoover) and their rival left leaning hat worn Vice Lords.

And I never stated or implied black Americans walk around speaking like "Snoop Dog." That would be a stereotype I would wish not to partake in thrusting upon black Americans. Do some young black Americans resemble those cultural traits? Yeah. But other won't. The average black American fashion differs from West Coast, Midwest, and East Coast. I was raised in the Midwest so I personally do not like much of West Coast and East Coast fashion (Hip Hop culture wise). For instance, crocodile shoes are more popular in my region from my experience than in the East Coast region. I'm half white and half black, raised in a predominately black middle class neighborhood and my white grandparents lived in a white middle class neighborhood, I've also worked with white peoples from working class white neighborhoods and I can tell you white middle class people - while they have the same economic spending power and hence consumer consumption related patterns as black middle class folks - live vastly different in terms of national analogy of that cultural gap between New York and L.A.

I recall as a child the black biker gangs on their Gold Wings decked out, throwing barbecues in a lot across from were I lived. Now that's something about black America you'll never see in popular Hollywood movie. Of course certain black biker gangs like the "Hell's Lovers" ride Harley's but most black biker clubs that I have seen favor Gold Wings.

Now as for your suggestion I'm exaggerating, then you had better take "black movies" to task and such notables as Spike Lee because one of the bedrocks of those genres of films is to point out the cultural differences between black and white Americans. Hell, although comedians are all about promoting stereotypes, black comedians nonetheless make the majority of there commic show talking about the large cultural differences between black and white Americans from everything in dance, food, clothing and dialect. But no... it's just e harmony [rolls eyes]. By the way I came up with the last of the black owned stores in the black community. Now I suppose you're going to try and sell these Brazilians some line the Koreans haven't taken over the black hair product stores and the Arabs haven't taken over the "corner stores."

written by The American Historian, 2007-01-14 18:50:45

I've given up on you e harmony. I am a 43 year-old black American and all of the vast differences you speak of between black and white americans are wildly exagerrated.
You must think every middle class black American like myself walks around like Snoop Dogg or 50 cent while all white americans are like the characters from Dallas or Dynasty.

I should point out to the Brazilian or anyone else, so as I don't leave the wrong impression about middle class white peoples in the U.S., they don't live like characters on "Dallas" or "Dynasty" (even though minus the commericals for those soaps I've never watched them so can't be 100% how the middle class whites, if any at all, are portrayed). Middle class white peoples in the Midwest of the United States - here I'm speaking of middle to lower-middle-class and not "upper-middle-class" - share material cultural traits and national cultural traits with black American middle class (not "upper-middle-class") to the similar degree that New Yorkers and peoples from Los Angeles share similar material cultural traits and national cultural traits. But one might say I guess, the expressions in lifestyle can differ greatly between those categorized groups.

For instance middle class white folks of my same age group, if they are in say construction employment, may have hair cut and groomed, but that comes down in the back right at about their shoulders. In the front of their face their hair may be long enough that it fall towards their eyebrows, before they swoop it to the sides with their hands. Generally this is a tapered cut with it's longest length reserved for the back where the hair falls no further than the tops of the shoulders. Middle class white folks ride Harley's (old or new) are generally less read than college educated black folks and certainly have less reading interests and intellectual interests than college educated black folks. Middle class white folks my age generally like rock (or maybe even Heavy Metal [if that's still popular I'm not sure?]) but young white people today (age 25 and younger) from middle class background predominately listen to Rap/Hip Hop and dress in the associated ways with that culture. Which brings me to a point: Hip Hop is more than music it is culture, and its broader than just "Gangsta Rap." There are people - and I'm one of them - that believe Hip Hop as a grass roots cultural force, rather than a politically legislative force, has drawn all the various racial groups in the U.S. closer together than the Civil Rights movement. And that's not a knock at the Civil Rights movement, but it is to suggest that while the Civil Rights movement achieved political ends for black American socio-economic advancements (in certain ways), it really in no way drew the various racial groups together in more common day cultural interaction. Now I'm sure there are people who will disagree with that - and that's fine.

Another thing, white middle class have many members that snort cocaine, they like the black middle class have people that are part of biker clubs and biker gangs (e.g. Outlaws). The white middle class however have a far less problem with street gangs and their neighborhoods have a superiority in safety that you will not find in Latino and black neighborhoods. White middle class is like the black middle class (speaking in general about both not every single individual: my uncle that has traveled to Brazil and Africa would break this mold) in terms of inward looking and limitation of cultural exposure out of their world. I should note white biker gangs like the Outlaws have and do murder people, however they do not kill on the scale of black and Latino street gangs. Speaking about white biker outfits like the Outlaws or Hell's Angels becomes difficult to just pin down to middle class whites and lower, because both those outfits have lawyers, doctors, and other high paid professionals now belonging to them.

Assumptions? No, they are my personal observations, and anyone--including you--can make the same observation....unless, of course, you are so defensive you can not see what is infront of your face.

By my observations I can tell you you are wrong.

I know most of us hate reading books so I will give you an outline:

Speak for yourself.

We hate being Brazilians.

We hate having being born in this God forsaken place, but we still brag about this tropical hell trying to comfort ourselves that at least we have good weather, no hurricanes, no tornadoes et cetera as if that is what life is all about: coconut trees, sunshine, “bundas”, seaside, beer and carnival.

Speak for yourself. Definetely I don't have being brazilian, and especially after learning the eagerness of hate groups worldwide in implementing racial segregation in Brazil I got a special admiration for it.

Brazil is a prejudicial and racist country.

If a black person sends a CV it goes straight to the wastebasket.

Not really, that doesn't happen. I see blacks everyday at work.

They even ask CV with photo.

WHAT!? No they don't. I am unaware if they ever did. How old are you? How long have you been away from Brazil? Are you even brazilian?

This is a ludicrous idea. What would anyone need photos in CVs? Are you a model? Usually CVs with photos are the ones that go directly to the wastebasket.

If we had pride in this place we would not be on one hand trying to build the USA here and attacking it from the other.

We aren't attacking anyone, all brazilians that post here are just defending Brazil against this race madness.

Let us discuss ways to make things better.

I can assure you "racism" isn't the way. In the US the society is racism and even kids are taught to "identify" themselves and others based on race.

That is all I have to say.

Non-sense, you mean.

For keeping the discussion sane. I stayed some days out and I couldn't follow it, and I won't because I don't really have the time.

The point is that the blacks posting in here are just being the perfect "stupid american" stereotype. They know nothing about Brazil or anything, YET they want to speak how it is and how it should be and want to teach us how "to live the right way". The "right" means racially segregated.

What we see here are flawed statistics and misinterpretation of facts. The police is famous for beating up or even killing people, and the population think it's ok, because they want violence to end. Anyone looking poor, dirty, drug addict or whatever will be treated like crap. It has nothing to do with race!

The argument for this behavior goes like this: "How will they (the police) know who are they dealing with?". Policemen are expected to be rude. A long time ago I went to a "heavy metal" kind of bar with some friends, full of people dressed very heavy metal-like. The police just came and treated EVERYONE like s**t, because they were looking for drugs. They weren't after the blacks only, and that was a place attended mostly by middle class and upper-middle class with lots of whites.

Brazil is not more racist than the US, not in the past and definetely not today. We don't segregate people based on race, this is considered very unpolite, you won't hear people bragging about being japanese, white, black or whatever. People don't live separated in different neighborhoods, with places "you can't go" because belong to another group.

It's nice to note that the people most vocal about racism in Brazil are those somehow related to communist parties. They live with a 19th century mentality with the proletariat vs bourguese. Adopting a racial black vs white looks like more of the same but with a different name. The same arguments are there, the "sharing of wealth", and oppresive class (bourguese now are called "whites"), etc.

But nowadays the means of production is the intellect, and wealth is created. No one is holding them back, but instead of promoting education as a way to success and generation of wealth they operate under the assumption that "if you have more then you are taking from me". I don't think this communist thinking is the way to development.

Rich white Brazilians in Ipanema should just shut up and not complain about crime at all because crime itself is an immediate effect of fighting crime NOT by providing education and services to the young gererations in the favelas BUT rather just lock themselves up in vigilantes-patrolled condos with swimming pools and rejoice when police shoot people in favelas like nazis (guilty or not, it doesn't really matter to them, as to "Ipanema people" they're just sub-humans) or get shocked when a rich bitch in Leblon gets shot. The wealth of the upper classes in Brazil is only possible due to slavery-cheap labour, so the Ipanemans and the likes cannot demand slavery-based richness and then refuse its consequences: crime.Brazil is the most racist country in the world where races don't exist but where everbody wants to be whiter (or at leats that's what TV culture points at all the time)

racist people go to hell
there is nothing i can do so i wash my hands clean and hope for justice

Luca, you are a moron.

Como vocês podem ver existe uma agenda clara sendo seguida por grupos estrangeiros, através de estatísticas falsas e manipulação dos dados estão querendo destruir a "brasilidade" do Brasil, ou seja, fazer pressão para nos incluir na seu mundo racista.

Eles não toleram que pessoas que não sejam como eles pensem ser melhores. Na sua mentalidade racista "brasileiro" é sub-raça e deveríamos estar conscientes disso. É um ultraje ao pensamento anglo-saxão que pessoas não anglo-saxãs possam desenvolver uma mentalidade sadia com outros seres humanos.

Isso e a idéia de império, onde eles dão a última palavra. Modos de vida desviantes, como uma sem raça, não é permitida.

They don't tolerate people that aren't like them to think they can be better. In their racist mentality "brazilian" is a sub-race and we should be conscious of that. It's an outrage to the anglo-saxon thinking that non-anglo-saxons can develop a healthy mentality towards other human beings.

That and the idea of empire, where they give the last word. Deviant way of lives, like a raceless one, aren't allowed.

O pessoal mais ofensivo, simplesmente repete o mesmo tipo de mentalidade dos demais, apenas é mais direto e usar textos menos floreados. No final o resultado é o mesmo. Espero que isso sirva para demonstrar as intenções nefastas dessas pessoas que se fingem de bem intencionadas.

O que está em jogo é o futuro do Brasil como país, a sobrevivência da nossa cultura.

Imaginem isso, os índios viviam "sem Deus" e isso foi usado como pretexto pelos portugueses para invadir esse lugar. Nós vivemos "sem raça" e isso está sendo usado da mesma forma, um pretexto moral para nos "ensinar" sobre a "verdade".

A história está se repetindo, não deixem que o resultado seja o mesmo!

Picture this, the indians lived "without God" and that was used as pretext by the portuguese to invade this place. We live "without race" and this is being used in the same way by the powers-that-be, a moral pretext "to teach" us about "the truth".

The history is repeating itself, let's not allow the outcome to be the same!

written by A brazilian, 2007-01-15 12:26:24

For keeping the discussion sane.

No, thank you for being a proud Brazilian.

I stayed some days out and I couldn't follow it, and I won't because I don't really have the time.

The point is that the blacks posting in here are just being the perfect "stupid american" stereotype. They know nothing about Brazil or anything, YET they want to speak how it is and how it should be and want to teach us how "to live the right way". The "right" means racially segregated.

What we see here are flawed statistics and misinterpretation of facts. The police is famous for beating up or even killing people, and the population think it's ok, because they want violence to end. Anyone looking poor, dirty, drug addict or whatever will be treated like crap. It has nothing to do with race!

The argument for this behavior goes like this: "How will they (the police) know who are they dealing with?". Policemen are expected to be rude. A long time ago I went to a "heavy metal" kind of bar with some friends, full of people dressed very heavy metal-like. The police just came and treated EVERYONE like s**t, because they were looking for drugs. They weren't after the blacks only, and that was a place attended mostly by middle class and upper-middle class with lots of whites.

Brazil is not more racist than the US, not in the past and definetely not today. We don't segregate people based on race, this is considered very unpolite, you won't hear people bragging about being japanese, white, black or whatever. People don't live separated in different neighborhoods, with places "you can't go" because belong to another group.

It's nice to note that the people most vocal about racism in Brazil are those somehow related to communist parties. They live with a 19th century mentality with the proletariat vs bourguese. Adopting a racial black vs white looks like more of the same but with a different name. The same arguments are there, the "sharing of wealth", and oppresive class (bourguese now are called "whites"), etc.

But nowadays the means of production is the intellect, and wealth is created. No one is holding them back, but instead of promoting education as a way to success and generation of wealth they operate under the assumption that "if you have more then you are taking from me". I don't think this communist thinking is the way to development.

Well, I'm not exactly sure how our political and economic view line up. While I'm certainly not a communist and appreciate the reward the free market system has to offer, I'm also not fond of unbridled greed or a form of savage capitalism trying to rear its head in globalization by demanding all obstacles be removed to the free movement of goods and the ability of international employers to locate and hire where they will predicated upon cheapest labor and regional areas will to reduce or keep environmental laws low so their corporate profit rates can increase. Such form of capitalism is not just, moral, or practical for a world that would wish not only internal national peace (freedom from environments that create brutal narcotic street gangs) but international peace (e.g. freedom from environments that help foster what we call "terrorist" groups).

As I'm sure you know, while universal education is fundamentally needed in todays world for any nation that wishes to obtain a "high quality" of lifestyle, it is not in and of itself a means or creator of monetary prosperity. The numerous unemployed educated peoples of Russia (many of which have Ph.D.'s) demonstrate that. Because U.S. educated elite protect themselves from educated immigrants overwhelming their U.S. professional job markets (domestically), the U.S. will not recognize many of these foreign persons college diplomas (at least not with out obstacle: e.g. East Indian medical school graduates must first work so many years at a U.S. veterans hospital before they can be licensed to work in the private sector) and thus people from Russia with Ph.D's are found busing tables in U.S. restaurants while some American (USA) who dropped out of high school and was lucky enough to get into a good paying factory is making about 5 times or 10 times more than that Russian immigrant.

So I admire people like Lula and Hugo Chavez (even if Chavez may go to far leftward in my opinion)

This is hilarious. You have Brazilians complaining Americans here do not know anything about Brazil giving prescriptions for what ails it; yet you make the same stereotypes about the U.S. and it's black population. No more pontificating e harmony or A Brazilian about the racial paradise that is Brazil and the racial hell-hole that is the U.S. Where are your citations and studies that prove there is no racism in Brazil? You can't point to ANY. Where are your citations that blacks in the U.S. are worse than those in Brazil or anywhere else in the world? You can't cite any. All you can say is "that's not true" or "in Brazil we are all Brazilians" and on and on.....Cite books, papers, articles and some of us will take seriously what you say.

You have begun to sound like the old racists of the United States. They blamed protesting U.S. blacks on the "Communists" and all civil rights groups as promoting hatred. History repeats itself. So where are your sources guys?

If blacks in Brazil do not face racism, then there is no racism in the United States, there are no bikinis in Brazil and there are no white people in Germany. Absolutely ridiculous.

And I have my own citation. It isn't only American blacks who think Brazil is racist, the U.S. State Department is sponsoring studies of Brazil's race problem. Google AALBC.com's Thumper's Corner Discussion Board: Culture, Race and Economy. Then once at the Board scroll down to the topic African Americans in Brazil for the article on Brazilian blacks in the U.S. discussing the racism they encounter in Brazil.

Yes, our brazilian brothers and sisters are being awakened, and it is beautiful. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

written by The American Historian, 2007-01-15 16:22:19

This is hilarious. You have Brazilians complaining Americans here do not know anything about Brazil giving prescriptions for what ails it; yet you make the same stereotypes about the U.S. and it's black population. No more pontificating e harmony or A Brazilian about the racial paradise that is Brazil and the racial hell-hole that is the U.S. Where are your citations and studies that prove there is no racism in Brazil? You can't point to ANY. Where are your citations that blacks in the U.S. are worse than those in Brazil or anywhere else in the world? You can't cite any. All you can say is "that's not true" or "in Brazil we are all Brazilians" and on and on.....Cite books, papers, articles and some of us will take seriously what you say.

I never stated no racism exists in Brazil. You are erecting an argument I never made. I challenged both the perception of the gringos ever binary view on race (as present and inherent in your comment I just place in bold above) and the propaganda being spread on here about the state of black America as though the bulk of them were doctors and lawyers. White women and other women (minus black women) blast past black Americans in numbers and percentages as being medical doctors. Much of black American middle class wealth is derived not from pronouncing they are "black" nor from Affirmative Action the bulk of that wealth was derived from latent effects of the organized labor movements of such groups as the teamsters, AFL-CIO, and UAW which increased the wages of U.S. workers through strikes and negotiations. The famous strike at the Fisher auto plant in Michigan brought at the time the most powerful corporation in the world to its knees. A poor Mexican or poor Thai girl can scream she is "black" till she is blue in the face it will not transform her economic situation. Racism - or rather all the complexities of racial relations are not simply about black people - there are other peoples that exist in this world other than black peoples.

I've read a number of books and essays on Brazil - history and otherwise - one of which is From Cream to Coal that was written by a black American. Very well written book and I give big accolades to the authors depth of self reflection and attempt to be as objective in his considerations as he could muster (none of us can be 100% objective). Although I did not agree with every interpretation he arrived at, I do hail the book as an outstanding work of literature in its type. The guys depth of personal, social, and historical reflection was so great and so exercised that he reminded me of a Thomas Merton but a "Thomas Merton" of ethnography. His view on Brazil vs the United States would be more along your lines of thought. I don't doubt that rallying around race has been one of the premier socio-economic structures within the USA. That is why though Brazil has more Italians than the United States the Italians of the U.S. are much more pronounced in advocating their difference then the Italians of Brazil. Gangs in the United States are almost always erected on the central point of race unlike in Brazil. In the late 1980's in the USA - at least in my city - large mob fights between various races of teens at high schools were fairly frequent. If high schools today are any thing like when I was in high school, then every cafeteria is divided by virtual racial segregation: white kids sit with white kids, blacks with blacks, Asians with Asians, Latinos with Latinos. And if some one says this is not true (at least up into the late 80's early 90's) they are a f--kin liar.

I also don't say the United States is a racial hell-hole - by no way in comparison to many parts of the world. In fact it is metropolitans in the United States, Brazil, and Western Europe I point to to counter the frequent charge that nations of predominate numbers of Christians are more intolerant of racial, cultural, and religious diversity than most the Islamic Eastern world. I point to New York, Milan, London, Sao Paulo, and even Paris. -- What I think is that in some things the United States has done better at and in some things Brazil has done better at. I think as for multiculturalism wherein there is large scale diversity but by-in-large everyone is divided up into their tribal racial areas... the United States does better than any nation in the world. But I think Brazil that takes all sorts of diversity and assimilates them into her one unifying Brazilian culture may very well be the best in the world at that. If Chicago represent U.S. values for capitalism, industry, and work above leisure then I would say perhaps Salvador might represent Brazilian values for tropical sensuality, foods rich and the antithesis of "slim fast," and a culture that appreciates leisure over Prussian work.

written by The American Historian, 2007-01-15 17:30:31

And I have my own citation. It isn't only American blacks who think Brazil is racist, the U.S. State Department is sponsoring studies of Brazil's race problem. Google AALBC.com's Thumper's Corner Discussion Board: Culture, Race and Economy. Then once at the Board scroll down to the topic African Americans in Brazil for the article on Brazilian blacks in the U.S. discussing the racism they encounter in Brazil.

Yes, our brazilian brothers and sisters are being awakened, and it is beautiful. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Black Americans experience discrimination every where. There is not a nation on earth they can't go to and point out they have been discriminated against. I mean black Americans frequently talk about the discrimination they receive in black West Africa. White gringos complain about mistreatment in Brazil too... I suppose that is racial as well.

Who said black Americans experience discrimination everywhere? Most of the black Americans I talk to say they are treated great in Europe, most parts of Asia as well as Africa. Africa is a huge place and the experiences may differ, but many black American visitors who go to West Africa say they are treated like visiting dignitaries. In Senegal, some hotel owners refuse to let black Americans pay for their hotel rooms.
Most of the time black Americans are treated fine when they go overseas--in some cases even better than White Americans

I really think you need to speak to more black Americans e harmony. Anyone who told you they have experienced discrimination in every country they visit probably has mental problems they are dealing with. A few black Americans will always accuse others of discriminating against them--even other blacks. Don't pay much attention to those folks.

Me thinks this fraudulent Black American Historian cannot even be taken into account. He barely can get his facts straight if there is a gap bettewen white American's culture and Black American's culture. Tsc, tsc... I guess this must be someone's conspiracy theory , he cannot even acknowledge there is racism agaisnt blacks in America today! As that actor who played Ray Charles character in the movies, "people say racism exists everywhere but it is just subtle in places like LA and NY . Well, I prefer subtle s**t".

Just a question. If you think Brazil is a hellhole to Blacks and America a heaven, why do you come to Brazil in the first hand? You know, you don't like it the door is open to leave, no one is forcing you to stay... I get curious.

I am not in Brazil, I am in Los Angeles, California. When I do visit Brazil someday, I plan to visit Bahia, where the pretos and pardos can tell me about all of the racism they face in Brazil. Sad, sad sad. Tonight on television in Los Angeles I will be watching the Brazilian telenovela "Xica," which gives many examples of Brazilian racism, as well as the show "City of Men" on my cable channel. Talk about an inferiority complex......Brazil could be better than the U.S. in race relations, but you are not and that is the truth.

Today in America we are celebrating Martin Luther King's birthday. If King were alive today, he would be helping Brazil's blacks because of all of the unfairness and injustice that they face. One day, justice will prevail.

Get a grip, black American Historian, don't you know Chica da Silva is a historic figure who lived in the 19th century? She was powerful and rich. I am not sure how she treated black ppl at that time or how she fought against racism or slavery, if so. Also why black Africans captured and sold thousands of millions black Africans back in the 17th 18th and 19th centuries? This is something you will have to live with. Can you explain that from the top of your historic knowledge?

Also I hope Martin could help the black civilians who were killed by American soldiers, blacks included....althou American army do not acknowledge until this day there were civilians amongst those 50 or 60 or 70 ppl killed.... Are you interested in them? Why don't you do something about them?

I make no excuses for the black Africans who sold blacks into slavery, they were horrible people. I did know Xica was a historic figure and on the novela she does not mistreat her fellow blacks. I am not a Bush supporter and hope the war in Iraq will end soon. I served in the Navy and know the Navy lawyer for one of the Guantanamo Bay prisoners. Rumsfeld kicked him out of the Navy recently for not doing what Bush wanted, so I am not happy with Bush. But, this is off topic.

I am a former Navy lawyer and the lawyer who Rumsfeld fired is named Charles Swift.

I was born in Long Beach, lived as a little kid in Carmelitos, if you know where that is. What discourages me about Brazil ever catching up in anything, is that they have waited too long. When L.A. was a sleepy pueblo of less than 10,000 people in the 1870´s, the city where I live here in Brazil already had a streetcar system and people riding it to work wearing suits and ties. L.A. had the infamous Chinese Massacre in those years, but before that the Indians gave way to the Spanish, who in turn gave way to the Anglos, who re-named the downtown streets. But what most Brazilian cities lacked, and still do, are movers and shakers like Pico, Huntington, Crocker, Wiggins, Hanc**k and Mad Man Muntz. Sure they got rich, but they left more than they took.

So today within walking distance of L.A. civic center you have Boyle Heights, Koreatown, the Japanese Museum, the area south of USC. Lots of people groups living in pretty good harmony. Not perfect.

In the immortal words of Rodney King, why can´t we just get along? Upper class Brazilians futher the problem here because they live in denial. No racism, no predudice? When we visited Rio for the first time I told my daughter, this is the first city you´ve been to in which the elite class are actually descended from lords and ladies of the former royal presence in Rio. It´s reported that the Rio Yacht Club once even denied membership to Roberto Carlos, a white and already successful Brazilian singer, because he "falta berço". Wasn´t "well-born". Like El Guapo said in the movie, Three Amigos, "what can I say about such men?"

No denials right!.... And no straight answers. And mr dee American historian charlatão (fraudulent) what about you start reading real history books instead of novelas... no comments...

instead of watching soap operas, read real books. If possible learn some Portuguese and read books by Brazilians. It can be some other language and other nationalities. You are such a bad intelectual mr dee. The worst of all because a historian who lives in denial cannot be called a historian. Can he?

You are exactly right Ric. Brazil and most of Latin America has "Premodern Elites" who think like most of the Old World feudal elites. They always cause, for a variety of reasons, to make societies worse off than they need be. In the United States we were fortunate because Abraham Lincoln defeated the last of our Premodern Elites--the American slave owners during our Civil War in the 1860's. Brazil's elites of today may not be as bad as those of 140 years ago, but they still maintain certain attitudes that harm Brazil, i.e., strict class and racial hierarchies, not enough investment in a good public education system, an excessive emphsis on the superiority of all things European, crony capitalism (which breeds corruption) and so forth.

Di Di my name is denial, are you male or female? Just curious.

I do read many books. And I want more Brazilians to read so your country will be better off.

Black Americans experience discrimination every where.

LMAO....well, if you're black, maybe it's just you, because I'm quite sure it's not your color. What an idiotic statement, you're truly a dumbf**k. Take your discrimination tune and stick it up your bunda.

Brazil is not more racist than the US, not in the past and definetely not today. We don't segregate people based on race, this is considered very unpolite, you won't hear people bragging about being japanese, white, black or whatever. People don't live separated in different neighborhoods, with places "you can't go" because belong to another group.

Have you ever been to the U.S.? Spent significant time there? I know the answer to the last question....absolutely NOT! buddy, you've been reading too many books about the U.S. in the 1960's and before. The U.S. today is economically segregated by their neighborhoods. If you can afford a 500,000 dollar home, you buy one, in a neighborhood where there are 500,000 dollar homes, and your neighbors are all different colors and from all different origins.

As far as racism in brazil, I'm a white american and married to a black brazilian woman, have been living in brazil for nearly 10 years, live in an upper-class neighborhood in my city and thankfully have done very well in life financially. We go to the best restaurants and rub elbows with the upper-class here, MANY people here in brazil give us looks, you know they simply don't approve. Two years ago the mayor of the city where I live came to our apartment for lunch, he had yet to meet my wife, when she came into the dining room from the kitchen, the first words out of his mouth were, "can you get me a glass of water please?"

HE THOUGHT SHE WAS THE f**kING MAID!!!

Obviously you're not a black brazilian, you should talk to my wife and ask her if she thinks racism and racial discrimination exist in brazil. Hell, talk to ANY black brazilian, I've yet to talk to ONE that doesn't say brazil is a racist country.

Kinda funny how NO ONE wants to be called black, "negro", in brazil, they've got 50 different names for people of color, no one wants to be called black....wonder why that is if brazil is such a racial harmonic wonderland?

To a brazilian:

I am not going to waste my time quoting what you said as the others do.

It is just sad you just don't get it, do you?

People like you are responsible for the way Brazil is: You insist on pretending everything is ok.

There is no problems. Sad sad sad.

How many people do you see on the buses reading books?

Aha, you probably don't travel by bus.

Look at our college student!

Low grades! Cannot write properly because they cannot read properly and by reading I mean understand what they read.

Maybe you should enquire about asking CVs with photos. You are in for a big surprise.

Of course! you would have to ask in the right place. No point going to a black people run company ask this question.

Or going to a "politically correct "one also,for you are going to receive a "of course we love all colours!

Open your eyes! Brazil is crumbling around you and you just don't see.

I work as a volunteer and have my job also.

I am brazilian and I know what I am talking about, unlike you who seems to live in wonderland.

Wake up Alice!

I'm South African and presently live in Johannesburg. I lived during the eighties in Brazil. I have also been on holiday to the United States.
I find the various arguments posted by the different parties most interesting. I'm disappointed to see how each party argues percentages of a better society. As an outsider to both societies, I find that both countries could improve immensly on racial issues. I see everyone lists whats wrong. That's the easiest part of any argument. How about getting round to finding some solutions.

to solve a problem, find solutions, one must first admit that a problem exists!!! Identify the problem!! And that is the problem of MANY here in this forum and MANY in brazil. They turn a blind eye and act as if negative situations that exist, problems, just aren't there. Instead, they turn this forum into a brazil/U.S. pissing contest, which is truly hilarious, because as much as I like brazil and many things here, when weighing the pro's and con's of the two societies, there is no comparison. And that's fairly evident by the millions of illegal brazilians in the U.S. and other parts of the world.

Yet you have a group of those that are pridefully indignant and think in recognizing a problem, especially to a group of gringos, then you're "humiliating" yourself. Pretty twisted ideology.

Yet you have a group of those that are pridefully indignant and think in recognizing a problem, especially to a group of gringos, then you're "humiliating" yourself. Pretty twisted ideology.

I think I have been clear enough in the other thread, there's a huge difference in talking abut problems honestly and just giving fuel for bigots like yourself to use in your "Brazil sucks!!!!" posts.

This is ridiculous, a guy that only watches soap operas speaking as if he knew of Brazil and demanding "citations", a you critizing brazilians. Both get a life.

I maintain what I have said previously, this is a propagandistic push to erradicate the brazilian culture and replace it by an anglo-saxon one, but of course, we would be a a sub-race. A parallel with 500 years ago indeed.

I maintain what I have said previously, this is a propagandistic push to erradicate the brazilian culture and replace it by an anglo-saxon one, but of course, we would be a a sub-race. A parallel with 500 years ago indeed.

Jesus, EVERYTHING is some kind of conspiracy or "plot" against brazil to you!! Don't you get tired of being so paranoid?

Jesus, EVERYTHING is some kind of conspiracy or "plot" against brazil to you!! Don't you get tired of being so paranoid?

Just by going over the articles, and most important of all, the comments in the articles we can see there's no good faith in it. This is not about helping or showing foreigners about this country, this is about promoting certain agendas and spreading misinformation.

written by bo, 2007-01-16 01:04:44

LMAO....well, if you're black, maybe it's just you, because I'm quite sure it's not your color. What an idiotic statement, you're truly a dumbf**k. Take your discrimination tune and stick it up your bunda.

The irony here is that my comment had none of the implications you read in it. In fact The American Historian comprehended my point quite correctly (which was in mild sarcasm).

written by bo, 2007-01-16 01:20:51

Have you ever been to the U.S.? Spent significant time there? I know the answer to the last question....absolutely NOT! buddy, you've been reading too many books about the U.S. in the 1960's and before. The U.S. today is economically segregated by their neighborhoods. If you can afford a 500,000 dollar home, you buy one, in a neighborhood where there are 500,000 dollar homes, and your neighbors are all different colors and from all different origins.

More lies huh? Battles under the fair housing act was still going on for blacks into the later 1980's. The whole "white flight" thing was continuing long after the 1960's. I've been in numerous states in the United States and I have never witnessed neighborhoods of $500,000 homes were everyone was all of different races and "origins." You exaggerate. The United States can't even elect a President as swarthy as President Lula (and Brazil has people as white and light haired as Bill Clinton) so how is it living in this interracial bliss? Oh I get it... Spike Lee's movie "Do The Right Thing" was totally wrong and you're the harbinger of truth. The movie "Crash" was also speaking about Brazil and not about the U.S. because like you say everyone in the U.S. just knows there are no such things as de facto "black neighborhoods," "White neighborhoods," or "Latino neighborhoods" et cetera. Of course it's also ironic that you were the one that made a point to me in different thread in the past that Gary, Indiana was mainly black, in reference to her problems.

The vast majority of people living in $500,000 homes in the United States are white people. I'm sure East Indians have a high percentage of their people living in that bracket of homes too. And of course you will find some other races too. But for sure most neighborhoods with homes like that are almost exclusively white. You find wealthy Brazilians of all colors too.

Kinda funny how NO ONE wants to be called black, "negro", in brazil, they've got 50 different names for people of color, no one wants to be called black....wonder why that is if brazil is such a racial harmonic wonderland?

Brazilian racial categories don't just limit themselves to black white mixtures they take into account Asian and Indian mixtures as well. I thought you would know that living in Brazil and speaking the language and all. Or are you so utterly gringo with binary goggles on that people like the American (USA) Tiger Woods is "black" to you? I guess in your book Tiger Woods is wrong for not calling himself black too huh? Actually, I have a nephew (biological) that has blonde hair and is lighter in white skin than President Lula, yet my nephew has a mulatto father and two uncles and a black grandfather and whit mother and grandmother, now is he "black" too? What about his brother who is darker olive or brown skin and has black hair... is he white, black, mulatto, Puerto Rican, Sicilian, or what is he?

This is not about helping or showing foreigners about this country, this is about promoting certain agendas and spreading misinformation.

Please..quote the "misinformation"!! Look at the articles on this site, most are taken straight from the brazilian news, and/or studies done by the brazilian gov't. itself or NGO's.

Ok, now tell us how the NGO's have a personal axe to grind with Brazil, lol. What about the brazilian gov't.?? Think they want to paint a worse picture of brazil than reality?

I've been in numerous states in the United States and I have never witnessed neighborhoods of $500,000 homes were everyone was all of different races and "origins." You exaggerate.

Really? I lived in a neighborhood in Atlanta Georgia, 500,000 dollar home, filled with blacks, indians and a few latinos. Hell, I was even just in West Virginia in one of the richest neighborhoods in the city, blacks and, once again, indians, were aplenty. And those two states that I mentioned certainly aren't reknown for their "racial harmony".

U.S. because like you say everyone in the U.S. just knows there are no such things as de facto "black neighborhoods," "White neighborhoods," or "Latino neighborhoods" et cetera.

Of course there are black neighborhoods, mexican, brazilian, etc. And wonder why that is? Ever hear that birds of a feather flock together? Brazilians are a perfect example, they go to the U.S. and what do they do? They don't settle down in a neighborhood where there are no brazilians, they actively pursue other brazilians, and live where they live, hence creating "brazilian" neighborhoods, mexian neighborhoods, etc.

You talk as if segregation still exists in america, please, get a life! Weren't you the idiot that said that yesterday the U.S. celebrated the assassination of MLK?? LOL! What a moron.

Ever hear that birds of a feather flock together? Brazilians are a perfect example, they go to the U.S. and what do they do?

Funny, we don't have this in Brazil.

Please..quote the "misinformation"!! Look at the articles on this site, most are taken straight from the brazilian news, and/or studies done by the brazilian gov't. itself or NGO's.

1- What articles?
2- What studies?
3- What NGOs?

I have quoted you a thousand times, you repeat the same s**t over and over again. You have just said mixing is not well seen in Brazil, although that goes against all possible logic, since people don't look "mixed" out of random mutations, they actually NEED to mix. Other perl of wisdom you just said in another thread, that Rede Globo is "censored".

Give us a break. You are just one of those type of losers that will try to do anything in your reach to convince others that the US is the most perfect place in the world, and everyone else should just follow it.

Funny, we don't have this in Brazil.

Really, well I live in an apartment building that is full of local and state politicians. Guess here in brazil the saying should be, "thieves of the gov't. flock together".

1- What articles?
2- What studies?
3- What NGOs?

Can you read?

Can you read?

Come on, show them, show the "studies" you talk so much about.

It should be noted to Brazilians that when bo stated that Brazilians have 50 different names for people of color in Brazil and that nobody wants to be called black, consequently implying that all people "of color" in Brazil, all mixed peoples, are black, and implied that the Brazilian lax and numerous "racial" descriptions of people to be a negative thing, he unwittingly revealed - by implications - a sociological fact on more than one level about the United States. You see for all the propaganda espoused on here that the United States has had as much or almost as much intermixing in their country as the Brazilians, in reality people like Tiger Woods and peoples like my nephews are a new phenomenon in U.S. society hence bo would and other Americans (USA) would be at a loss to define them. An extreme minority of peoples like my nephews existed in the U.S. always, however they were cast under the "One Drop Rule" as "black" even though they may have been whiter than your President Lula and have blonde hair. Furthermore people like my nephews (unlike their father, myself, and our brother) complicate the matter worse because one can pass for a Sicilian and the other for a German yet they both are brothers and have a mulatto father and black grandfather. For most U.S. history when ever a mulatto was produced they always (by-in-large at least) married and procreated with a black person especially if the mulatto was a male - simply U.S. racial relations were to segregated. Tiger Woods having more Asian ancestry than black also confuses the American (USA) mind. However Brazil has dealth with this stuff and adapted to it for decades if not centuries.

The Gracie family has Scottish ancestry among other blood ancestral lines. I've seen pictures of their family in a book with small kids and young girls. The Gracies come on a various colors or hues. So would bo and American gringos call Rickson Gracie: white, black or what? The American gringo and bo would have no answer because they themselves and their country rarely if ever had to encounter this degree of mixedness within their country. Now they are encountering it in the USA and rebelling against progressing beyond the "One Drop Rule." The year 2000 was the first time the United States Census allowed for citizens of the U.S. to pick more than "one box" for race (though there still exists no terms for mixed-race peoples).

written by bo, 2007-01-16 12:19:46

Really? I lived in a neighborhood in Atlanta Georgia, 500,000 dollar home, filled with blacks, indians and a few latinos. Hell, I was even just in West Virginia in one of the richest neighborhoods in the city, blacks and, once again, indians, were aplenty. And those two states that I mentioned certainly aren't reknown for their "racial harmony".

Both Atalanta and Chicago have a wealthy black neighborhood (which defies the standards of most cities in the United States concerning black peoples). Now regarding specifically, these multiracial and multicultural neighborhoods of $500,000 homes in the USA you speak - I simply have never seen them nor heard of them nor encountered anyone in all my time in the Marine Corps or civilian life that has - and I've met people from all over the United States. What represents U.S. racial demographics better, is the response to Hurricane Katrina and the consequent controversy. Of course I'm sure you'll charge e harmony created that racial controversy and racial antagonisms and that actually everyone in the United States - most especially black Americans - thought Katrina effected New Orleans only demonstrated the beauty and harmony of racial relations black Americans and "minorities" of the U.S. live in in this country - not to mention what is immediately believed by the average U.S. citizens as grand material abundance and royalty living by most black Americans... because as we know most those black peoples stranded in Katrina effected New Orleans were doctors, lawyers, engineers, philosophers with Ph.D.'s and owners of $500,000 homes.

I live in a multiracial neighborhood in Los Angeles (ten minutes away from where I am now) where the average home is worth $500,000. And of course I am black. My parents lived in a home THAT SOLD FOR $900,000 TWO YEARS AGO, AND THEY ARE BOTH BLACK. They now live in a retirement home , fully paid for, worth $500,000 in New Mexico. You see e-harmony, these $500,000 dollar homes that black Americans own do not exist only in myth, fables or places like Atlanta and Chicago--they can be found pretty much anywhere. And Hurricane Katrina did not discriminate based on class. Many middle class blacks got out in time; others whether poor or middle class did not. Many whites of all social classes lost their homes in New Orleans--it just was not focused on as much.

It comes down to a simple fact: societies that invest in their people in today's world do better than those that believe the masses exist primarily to be exploited. The white or lightest-skinned folks of Brazil--in general--do not trust the black and mixed race folks of their country and the entire society suffers as a result. You will either accept this fact or watch the 21st Century leave you in the dust. But hey, you will still have Pele and Ronaldo and those telenovelas populated with white folks.

written by The American Historian, 2007-01-16 19:04:22

I live in a multiracial neighborhood in Los Angeles (ten minutes away from where I am now) where the average home is worth $500,000. And of course I am black. My parents lived in a home THAT SOLD FOR $900,000 TWO YEARS AGO, AND THEY ARE BOTH BLACK. They now live in a retirement home , fully paid for, worth $500,000 in New Mexico. You see e-harmony, these $500,000 dollar homes that black Americans own do not exist only in myth, fables or places like Atlanta and Chicago--they can be found pretty much anywhere. And Hurricane Katrina did not discriminate based on class. Many middle class blacks got out in time; others whether poor or middle class did not. Many whites of all social classes lost their homes in New Orleans--it just was not focused on as much.

It comes down to a simple fact: societies that invest in their people in today's world do better than those that believe the masses exist primarily to be exploited. The white or lightest-skinned folks of Brazil--in general--do not trust the black and mixed race folks of their country and the entire society suffers as a result. You will either accept this fact or watch the 21st Century leave you in the dust. But hey, you will still have Pele and Ronaldo and those telenovelas populated with white folks.

And the beat goes on...I never stated no black peoples own $500,000 homes, I stated, I have never seen anywhere in the United States multiracial and multicultural neighborhoods of $500,000 homes. I stated neighborhoods like that are almost exclusively white. And that truth if a "fact jack." You cats are a bunch of liars, you accuse the Brazilian of being in denial when in factit is you people who are in denial. The controversy surrounding Katrina and your response to the issue of the *controversy* and *predominate black American opinion regarding Katrina effected New Orleans* is a perfect example of not only your denial but your blatant lies as to this "multiracial harmonies" United States wherein under your proposition (implied) defacto racially segregrated neighborhoods, "white flight," and average U.S. public opinion of black Americans disproportionately being poor, thugs, uneducated, prisoners or exconvicts does not exist.

In fact given how close rich Brazilians in Rio live to the poor favelas, I would go so far as to say white rich Brazilians are less segregated from the poorer dark peoples in the favelas then the rich suburbanites of Chicago (or even her Gold Coast) and most U.S. cities are to their own inner city ghettos dominate by blacks, Latinos, and Hmong.

And Brazilians have more black peoples or dark skin peoples than Pele and Ronaldo in middle class and wealthy social class. Any search on folago or whatever it is (can't remember exactly) will visually tell you that. If those are poor Brazilians then they make my city ghettos and poor folks look like the Third World. And the fact you will have to accept is that without the U.S. demand in the 1960's for labor in the robust paying industrial jobs of the time, the U.S. black middle class would never have grew as it did. It comes down to demand for labor, Brazil can't give what it doesn't have, I would think this simple economic principle should be self-evident. If industries in Brazil needed massive influx of labor then peoples lives in the favelas would transform. The impact of increased wages would have similar (but not as large scale) effect. That said I'm not against the Brazilian Government doing job creation - I would be all for it.

The white or lightest-skinned folks of Brazil--in general--do not trust the black and mixed race folks of their country and the entire society suffers as a result

Don't talk as if black and mixed were the same. What's the part you didn't get about it?

Most whites in the U.S. do not own $500,000 homes, most blacks do not own $500,000 homes. Yes, most such homes are owned by whites here, but whites outnumber everyone else by a substantial margin.

I see that I am dealing with someone who must keep a certain image of American blacks in his mind. According to you, almost all blacks have little contact with yet are always fighting white Americans; either are in prison or are on the way there (after they have contracted AIDS); inspire dislike which causes everybody else on the planet to discriminate against them; are engaged in a plot to showcase a few successful blacks like Colin Powell to keep focus off the fact that almost all other blacks are miserable and failures; constantly fight and brawl with the newer Latino and Asian immigrants to the U.S.; and all would be solved if the U.S. just adopted the Brazilian/Latin American approach of saying "we don't have racism in the U.S., we are all one race. I know your eyes tell you differently, but as long as you black Americans accept the fact that your ancestors, physical appearance and everything else about you makes you inferior to all things European, we can all get along just great. And hey, we LOVE your music and the food you cook; from time to time our white men even want to bang your best looking black women, so doesn't this by itself prove our approach on race is a good one. And remember, the fact that almost all of the elites are white and much higher percentages of the poor are black is just a coincidence. You are simply poor and black, not in any way poor because you are black. Now go and have your kids watch a nice show like "Xuxa" where none of the little kiddies she puts on her show happen to be black even though, oh at least 50% of the kids in Brazil look like they are at least part black."

A racial paradise, what can I say. Folks in this world may have a variety of reasons for not wanting to acknowledge the success black Americans have achieved in the U.S.--and I don't know what your reasons are e-harmony, but most black Americans in the U.S. are no longer poor so I guess you will have to do what other Brazilians do: compare conditions in Brazil with conditions in Africa. But hey, glad to see Brazilians do not do so because they see Africans in a negative light; after all Brazilians don't see race.

Why would I have any reason to lie about these things. I suppose I am part of the plot to destroy Brazil. Yeah, that sounds like a good reason.

It´s true that the favelas in Rio are close to some of the rich people. A few years ago I went up to Cristo Redentor and on the way someone pointed out the home of a major TV mogul. But that proximity, I was told, is why he usually travels by chopper and not by car. Rio allowed the current situation to develop and is now paying for it.

In Santa Barbara County where my dad lives the Mexican farm workers live in $500,000.00 homes. But a good foreman (non-US citizen) can make $150,000 a year in the strawberrys....

The white or lightest-skinned folks of Brazil--in general--do not trust the black and mixed race folks of their country and the entire society suffers as a result

I have no idea why an individual in his right mind would say something like that. You can only not know Brazilians to write such a filthy thing.

I have to say I am sickened and disgusted with an individual like this "The American Historian". Any quick look at Orkut would show how black and mulatos Brazilians get along with whites (and vice-versa) being them friends or even married couples.

I see you understand portuguese so I define you with the portuguese word escroto. You show no dignity no education no nothing. Some oppressed individuals become the oppressors . Grampa, you have nothing more to do?

You probably swallowed much discrimination in your life, much despise and you are still now full of hatred and revolt. Or maybe you made the wrong choices in your life and now is stuck in a meaningless, pointless existance. Don't learn the hate, the ignorance and the reactionarism you see country produces. If you could at least learn this..... Fight for harmony and forgive the past. You can always start your life....

e harmony I think you made a good point about the economic difficulty that Brazil possesses. The Brazilian economy is not growing sufficiently and it needs to grow in order provide the youth their first job and also include the adult force that is unemployed today in a rate of 20%. Also just a few here find room to grow and most see themselves very limited in opportunities to grow. But nothing is what you see and happiness is possible...

oh at least 50% of the kids in Brazil look like they are at least part black

Oh boy, made up statistics again. American Historian, you seem to have a problem in leaving other people to live their lives as they see fit. You were created in an atmosphere of hate and segregation, and therefore think that anywhere else in the world must be, obligatorily, worse. Simply because you can't accept the fact that the US isn't the paradise as advertise.

First of all, a 500,000 house means absolutely s**t. Because such a house can cost many different values in different places in the US, and in Brazil an equivalent house will cost lower.

Second, not all blacks are poors. And the rich ones aren't only football players. American keep repeating that without any grounds in reality at all, I think they want to feel better about themselves! In my job (a well paid skilled job BTW, middle - upper-middle class, everyone have in the very minimum a bachelors degree and are at least bilingual, sometimes speak 3 or 4 languages) I see black people there! If you extend this to include the mixed, which according to the non-sense in this site "are discriminated", the number is even greater!

Third, no one needs to acknowledge inferiority of anything. Since when if you aren't shouting your "origins" then you are "acknowledging the inferiority" of it? I don't talk about any of my ancestors, not even the natives that were kind of in vogue lately, because the only thing I can identify myself with is with Brazil! If you don't grow in the culture

My grandmother by father side was native, so I am 25% native. But what's the point in saying that if I don't have, I don't care, I won't have any contact with their culture!? I simply don't care, I am brazilian. The same applies to all whites and blacks of my family! I don't care about it, I am brazilian. The hell with Europe! The hell with Africa! I only wish those natives that still exist could learn that the world is much bigger and they could join the rest of the society while still being what they are! Living in reservations as if they were some sort of animal in the Zoo, for gringos to see on Fox News when propaganda articles are made isn't really a good perspective for the future. They live like beggars.

If you don't grow in the culture ...

The complete sentence is:

If you don't grow in the culture there's no point in saying you are this or that.

This is my perspective about many people that call themselves "italians" or "germans" in Brazil. Some don't even know german or italian, speak only portuguese, sometimes never travelled outside Brazil, and still call themselves that! I don't agree with that, but you know what? WE LIVE IN A FREE SOCIETY, I MAY NOT LIKE IT BUT THEY ARE FREE TO SAY WHATEVER THEY WANT TO.

You have serious problems with the thinking I highlighted above. You say you live in the US (the land of the free?) but it seems you aren't free and you aren't used to it at all.

Where are those books, citations and articles supporting you A Brazilian? The world waits.....

Guys, you don't know me. I did not grow up in a world of "hate and segregation."
I have gotten along with 90% of the White Americans I have come across in my life.
My sisters have mostly dated white guys; I am in a relatioship with a Mexican American Mestizo woman. Where is this world of hate and segregation I have experienced?
I have lived in mostly white neighborhoods since 1966.

As for the claim you made at this board or perhaps another A Brazilian that the blacks in the U.S. are much darker than the pretos and pardos in Brazil, I have seen quite a few examples of such Brazilians over the years and A high percentage of them don't look too different from many black Americans. I resemble your soccer star Ronaldo except I am older, taller and have a mustache. There is no single uniform look that black Americans have, whether they are darker or lighter in tone. Now where are those sources boys.

Granny, you have already failed to acknowledge an general African American culture as opposed to a general white American culture, also racism against black Americans in US. And if you reread your posts youll see you NEVER EVER ANSWERED one single question directed to you. Now, do you consider this an honest intelectual debate from your part? Intelectual dishonesty is a product of what? If you cannot answer this little question maybe you should take a close look to your life and you might understand it....

If some of you think that Native American live like beggars, it only shows that you do not understand anything about that segment of American life. In New York the Mohawks make good money building skyscrapers; north of Fresno Native Americans have a multi-million dollar casino, plus the Chumash Casino on the coast; many live in reservations because they prefer it; Lake County and Polson, Montana are on tribal land; my tribal friends in NW Montana are experts in their chosen careers; they receive some benefits in health care and loans to small businesses that others do not, in view of the fact that it was once all theirs.

I would like for Zé Brazilian to see the part of the USA that his beloved Fox News and other TV shows may not have revealed. First, fly in to Chicago. Rent a car and see the South Side, the Loop, Navy Pier. Head west, Wall Drug, the fabulous Corn Palace, Pioneer Village. A few days in the historic Sinclair Hotel, Sinclair Wyoming. South through Craig, CO, cross Nevada on beautiful Highway 50, down old 99 to L.A. Three days tent camping among the trees in North Long Beach´s Houghton Park, on Atlantic, then an invigorating hike to Compton airport for the shuttle to LAX. It will change your life, your attitude, your outlook. I personally recommend it, and I know that will mean a lot to you.....

written by The American Historian, 2007-01-16 21:29:53

I see that I am dealing with someone who must keep a certain image of American blacks in his mind. According to you, almost all blacks have little contact with yet are always fighting white Americans; either are in prison or are on the way there (after they have contracted AIDS).

Look American Historian, I don't know where you get these ideas that I am implying some of the things you say I am. While I do acknowledge a large and significant percentage of young black males face death, prison, or parole or probation for various layers of reasons that are simply not their fault nor simply other peoples faults (just as I acknowledge the same about the mulattoes and blacks and others in Brazils infamous favelas) I know all to well black Americans also arrive at far more stable, secure, productive and or prestigious social states of life. My own father came from brutal poverty (read that as spring coats worn in Midwestern winters and so poor him and his siblings had to stuff cardboard in the bottoms of their shoes when they worn holes in the soles) and eventually arrived at becoming a U.S. Federal agent. He also broke through those doors by the means of Affirmative Action. However, him and I would disagree on the overall degree and benefit that AA has ultimately helped releave the overwhelming black American communities problems. Yet he is very well aware of the internal fraction along racial lines in this country and even in the black American community. And if you think I speak negative on the United States as far as racial relations... I look sound 10 times tamer than him. His own grandmother didn't like him and his other siblings because as I am told she blatantly stated at onetime, "I didn't want grandchildren so dark." You can flash forward to my birth and childhood and the first time I really realized I was "different" was in the 1st grade or so when the black kids at my Catholic grade school (it was predominately black - and many were not Catholic) refused to allow me to play footaball with them because as they put it, "no honkies allowed." After no avail at convincing them that the reality was I was "half black and half white" (I am and was brown skin like J-Lo or darker) even though my mother was white, my black cousin joined them in the game and I was left standing alone on the side line as the white kids played in one area together and the black kids another (boys in football). Fast forward to high school and I am at a predominately white Catholic high school were I and other black students get taunted by white kids from behind in the stair wells doing the "human beat box." This of course was also my introduction to being called "n--ger" Fast forward into the Marine Corps and I'm out at sea with a Mexican Gunny who must not like Puerto Ricans (many people think I'm Puerto Rican) and he was constantly telling me - for all my 9 months out at sea - my hair was "all f-cked up" and to have it recut do to my natural curls in my hair (my hair was once more curly than what it is now... it has straightened out more) that could never be cut out or eliminated by the clippers. At this point I was fortunate to have a number of black Marines (NCO's) come to my defense that I could not biologically change my hair as my Gunny seemed to demand in implications. Yet these were the same black Marines (aka "dark greens") who would give me a hard time at times about being mixed (specifically mulatto). In fact two black NCO's cornered me one day drilled me about my racial make up and said ancestral heritage and then demanded to no exactly how dark my father was on complexion. Fast forward out of the Corps and into civilian life and I could tell numerous other stories including some "GD's" (Gangster Disciples aka Growth & Development) at a black bar who let me know - in quite professional ways - that I had better leave the bar because regardless if I was not Puerto Rican I looked like one and that in it's self is enough guilt (All Latinos are automatically associated by black gang members on my side of town as Latin Kings). This is the United States I know. And I know no other.

Continue below.

written by The American Historian, 2007-01-16 21:29:53

I see that I am dealing with someone who must keep a certain image of American blacks in his mind. According to you, almost all blacks have little contact with yet are always fighting white Americans; either are in prison or are on the way there (after they have contracted AIDS).

Continued from above post I made...
-----------------
I realize Brazil has the remaining structure of white supremacy. Mexico has it and the United States as well as nations like Canada, Chile, and Argentina still has it. I don't deny U.S. blacks have made hard fought and hard struggled gains (though many would argue the community has went in reverse since the 1970's or so). But I also must judge black American social and economic progress in relation to the prosperity of the U.S. economy (a national economy that controls by itself perhaps at least an amazing 10% of the entire globes GDP - and there are close to 200 nation states on earth) and racial demographics. I also don't suggest black Americans are just simply less socially prestigious things such as exconvicts (though in the inner city that is a prestigious thing)... but my points I have been trying to make is that most Americans (USA) think of less socially prestigious states of life when they think of "black Americans." I'm also not saying the United States needs to turn overnight into Brazil as far as racial descriptions or similar. I believe the Brazilian way is superior in this regard, yes, and as well more scientifically in tune with what modern anthropologist say about race. However, the two countries evolved socially different. I think Brazil could learn a lot from the U.S. in terms of being less aristocratic and "traditional" in structure as well as having a "cleaner" running government (though I realize lieing to a nation to enter war is corrupt also) - granted they city of Chicago seems to never have a year pass without some political, judicial, and civil law enforcement corruption coming out usually tied in with the La Cosa Nostra.

P.S. - I'm not saying black peoples in the U.S. don't encounter white peoples or others and vice a versa. Everyone in fact mingles with one another to a certain extent (depending on their level of contact professionally or otherwise) but are de facto 9 times out of 10 living in predominately racially segregated neighborhoods.

written by The American Historian, 2007-01-16 19:04:22

I live in a multiracial neighborhood in Los Angeles (ten minutes away from where I am now) where the average home is worth $500,000. And of course I am black. My parents lived in a home THAT SOLD FOR $900,000 TWO YEARS AGO, AND THEY ARE BOTH BLACK. They now live in a retirement home , fully paid for, worth $500,000 in New Mexico. You see e-harmony, these $500,000 dollar homes that black Americans own do not exist only in myth, fables or places like Atlanta and Chicago--they can be found pretty much anywhere. And Hurricane Katrina did not discriminate based on class. Many middle class blacks got out in time; others whether poor or middle class did not. Many whites of all social classes lost their homes in New Orleans--it just was not focused on as much.

It comes down to a simple fact: societies that invest in their people in today's world do better than those that believe the masses exist primarily to be exploited. The white or lightest-skinned folks of Brazil--in general--do not trust the black and mixed race folks of their country and the entire society suffers as a result. You will either accept this fact or watch the 21st Century leave you in the dust. But hey, you will still have Pele and Ronaldo and those telenovelas populated with white folks.

I hope you realize that your comment in bold was highly ethnocentric and ethnocentric in stereotype? It would be like someone minimizing all black Americans into the contextual scope of: Micheal Jordan and Deon Sanders. You have in effect deconstructed this girl down to a "Ronaldo" by virtue of her skin color and Brazilianness or any boy like her in color in Brazil http://www.vibeflog.com/belazinhainha/p/12400325. Oh how well black Americans have learned to adapt traditional white American traits of ethnic, national, or racial superiority over others they deem beneath them. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. But then, in issue of Brazil's racial diversity, isn't it interesting black Americans side with the likes of bo that refers to bilingual Brazilians as "illiterate monkeys," yet we mulattoes and mixed-race peoples are charged with being "sell outs."

But hey! The O.J. Simpson case just high lighted black and white Americans unity in opinion, culture, love and serene peace with one another. Oh wait e harmony.... you are making things up because white people in California get killed by other white lovers and hence there never existed any racial tensions and antagonisms in the O.J. televised case I was just imagining black peoples in my town were outside screaming and cheering "O.J. got off!"

written by Ric, 2007-01-16 23:37:48

If some of you think that Native American live like beggars, it only shows that you do not understand anything about that segment of American life. In New York the Mohawks make good money building skyscrapers; north of Fresno Native Americans have a multi-million dollar casino, plus the Chumash Casino on the coast; many live in reservations because they prefer it; Lake County and Polson, Montana are on tribal land; my tribal friends in NW Montana are experts in their chosen careers; they receive some benefits in health care and loans to small businesses that others do not, in view of the fact that it was once all theirs.

Prior to Amerindians in the U.S. being allowed to operate casinos, most Amerindians in the U.S. were amongst the U.S. poorest. Many of Indian reservations were like Third World conditions. Census data over the decades as well as from the mouths of Amerindians themselves tell a tale of large scale tragedy not least of which was and is a significant percentage of alcoholism. And lets make it clear that many of today U.S. Amerindians are whiter in skin than President Lula - some are even as black as Pele. The United States does not officially recognize a "mestizo" category and hence mixed-race Amerindians in the U.S. are listed as "Indian" and not mestizo like in Mexico or Peru. However, it is true in certain regions Amerindians have been employed as Iron Workers which is a very good paying blue collar job. But any suggestion that the majority of Amerindians in the United States for decades earned high middle class wages like that is laughable if not offensive to the tragedy that has been wrought on those peoples for centuries.

Well, bury my heart at wounded knee. Never suggested that. Kid comes in to our shop, Blackfeet tribe, working kid, got a bad engine in his pickup. It´s got a broken piston, scored the walls. A white guy would have had it bored thirty over, all eight holes, new pistons and big money. Not this kid. He wants only the bad cylinder bored. OK, and afterwards it runs fine. Crazy? Like a fox. Years ago a circle track racer with a flathead kept winning everything, was constantly challenged and many times had to have a head pulled to see if he was over the displacement limit. He always checked out legal. One day a challenger says, "No, pull the other head this time". They did and it was three and three eighths, bored to the max.

Indians don´t need your sympathy. They are plenty smart, can live wherever they want to and like a lot of people in Montana, often make less than they could elsewhere so they can keep living where they choose to.

Hi again
What a heated debate.....
Many opinions have been stated on the subject. Most airing the same views with different words. Every country has its racial and social problems. Most countries will try and find a solution that is acceptable to its citizens. South Africa has tried for example the "Rainbow Nation Concept". The debate I have read above leans towards prescribing solutions that have worked in one country to be transfered to another. The US solution of affirmative action for example, worked in the US but has been a failure in many other countries. The process of uplifting a specific minority (or in South Africans case the majority) could take decades.
To compare Brazil and US social development is a difficult task. Problems that were identified many decades ago in America have only now been identified in other countries. In the past one could through money at problems to fix it. Nowdays resources are scarce and you have to be globally competitive. Every dollar the South African government(Brazil) spends on trying to upliftment the poor(mostly black) is negated by the rise of China. Hundreds of thousands of jobs have been lost in South Africa. South Africa cannot compete with the slave like salaries that China gives to their workers. Brazil and I'm sure the US are facing similar problems........

And the beat goes on...I never stated no black peoples own $500,000 homes, I stated, I have never seen anywhere in the United States multiracial and multicultural neighborhoods of $500,000 homes.

Well, with all due respect, but you haven't been around much, and obviously don't run in the same circles I do, but can tell you for a FACT, that they DO exist, and NOT in rare numbers!

I live in a multiracial neighborhood in Los Angeles (ten minutes away from where I am now) where the average home is worth $500,000. And of course I am black. My parents lived in a home THAT SOLD FOR $900,000 TWO YEARS AGO, AND THEY ARE BOTH BLACK. They now live in a retirement home , fully paid for, worth $500,000 in New Mexico. You see e-harmony, these $500,000 dollar homes that black Americans own do not exist only in myth, fables or places like Atlanta and Chicago--they can be found pretty much anywhere. And Hurricane Katrina did not discriminate based on class. Many middle class blacks got out in time; others whether poor or middle class did not. Many whites of all social classes lost their homes in New Orleans--it just was not focused on as much.

Couldn't have said it better!

Don't talk as if black and mixed were the same. What's the part you didn't get about it?

Now wait ONE minute!!!


Aren't YOU the idiot that's been spouting off about "there is no black, there is no brown, we're ALL brazilians??

First of all, a 500,000 house means absolutely s**t. Because such a house can cost many different values in different places in the US, and in Brazil an equivalent house will cost lower.

FIRST of all, there ARE NOT in houses in brazil that you can equivilate with homes in the U.S.!

Why you ask??

Because a home in Brazil, with the exception of a CLOSED CONDOMINIUM where there are security guards at the gated walls and all within the complex, are surrounded by 12 foot high walls with glass or nails sticking out of the top of them, iron gates and iron bars over the windows!!!!

In the U.S. someone can walk right up to your front door and knock on it, NOT here in brazil!!! You either have to ring the doorbell, or clap your hands in the street, lol, then the watchdogs come running and barking, and someone peeks their head out of an iron-barred window(looks as if he's in prison) and has to unlock 5 different padlocks to finally let you in!!

That is reality in ALL brazilian cities and metropolitan areas!!!

Prior to Amerindians in the U.S. being allowed to operate casinos, most Amerindians in the U.S. were amongst the U.S. poorest.

Well that was PRIOR to today, and for some years now wasn't E?? What about TODAY??

Aren't YOU the idiot that's been spouting off about "there is no black, there is no brown, we're ALL brazilians??

Are you stupid? Can you recognize contexts of what is being said? This piece of text was related to another attempt to group "blacks and mulattos" as if they were the same and as if they were discriminated against in Brazil. A simple reply to a wrong notion.

Yes, we are all brazilians, but that's a different context. I guess it's too hard for you to figure it out.

written by M silva, 2007-01-17 09:56:34

Hi again
What a heated debate.....
Many opinions have been stated on the subject. Most airing the same views with different words. Every country has its racial and social problems. Most countries will try and find a solution that is acceptable to its citizens. South Africa has tried for example the "Rainbow Nation Concept". The debate I have read above leans towards prescribing solutions that have worked in one country to be transfered to another. The US solution of affirmative action for example, worked in the US but has been a failure in many other countries. The process of uplifting a specific minority (or in South Africans case the majority) could take decades.
To compare Brazil and US social development is a difficult task. Problems that were identified many decades ago in America have only now been identified in other countries. In the past one could through money at problems to fix it. Nowdays resources are scarce and you have to be globally competitive. Every dollar the South African government(Brazil) spends on trying to upliftment the poor(mostly black) is negated by the rise of China. Hundreds of thousands of jobs have been lost in South Africa. South Africa cannot compete with the slave like salaries that China gives to their workers. Brazil and I'm sure the US are facing similar problems........

Very nice post, Silva, and one that tries to be fair and reasonable across all sides. I'm tired of debating on this because it only encourages negative vibes and feelings from myself and the ones I debating with on this. I think at the end of the day, no matter exactly what one thinks as to what is the best vehicle for positive change or even to as which nations have what if any particular sets of problems, if all are honest all can agree all the European colonized lands are far from producing perfectly racially egalitarian societies on all levels. Human beings and human societies are complex; they are economical, political, a-sexual social, religious, and intimate and sensual. While man can not help but be involved and or effected by monetary wealth or engaged in or effected by political involvements mans measure, value, satisfaction and sustenance are not simply limited to those things. Man is an intimate and sensual creature as well, he is an imaginative creature who can find his expression in any thing from playing a video game, to creating jazz, to religious art work and belief or to practicing something as Capoeira. The pursuit of money, political agitation and lobbying, the drinking of coca cola can't be the sum all of measuring man's or a societies be all health, virility, worth or measure. You can only stuff your face with so many burgers to find solace to your loneliness, disenchantment, and alienation within modern industrial and post-industrial society.

Having said that I'm pulling out of the debate. I prefer to hear good news and sense positive vibes at times. I mean h*ll, everyone no matter their race or color will suffer in some form in life and own some personal faults - even if they are rich, even if they are poor. Call it the curse of life.

"Yes, we are all brazilians, but that is a different context."

What different context. You have made a mental slip-up my pal and revealed the way you really see things, and Bo has just dinged you. As for you e harmony, the picture I am getting is of someone who believes his own personal experiences are to be accepted as universal truths. 78% of American blacks live above the poverty line which in affect means 8 out of 10 do not live in accordance with this lower social station of which you speak. Maybe too many white americans do see them that way, but that is no excuse for you to come on this site and repeat those myths based on your own personal experiences. Read some updated materials my brother; the experiences of you and your father were unfortunate, but I am a light-skinned black man and they have not been my experiences. My experience is not your experience; Barack Obama's experience is not Jesse Jackson's experience; Condi Rice's experience is not Snoop Dogg's experience.

One anecdote. Adriana Lima, the beautiful Bahiana model has referred to herself repeatedly as part black (in addition to other heritage). Yet I observed a Brazilian during a blog discussion repeatedly insisting she was not even part "black" despite her own assertions. This Brazilian, and I suspect most others in his country, see the term black as a social term, and a negative one at that. "How can one say she is part black when she is beautiful, successful and admired" seems to be his perspective. And the actress Camila Pitanga, who has begun to call herself black has also referred to incidents where folks have told her in short "why are you calling yourself black, you are too pretty for that." You see "Black" in the Brazilian racial paradise is a pejorative social term and not simply a description of one's ancestry. Ah yes the racial paradise.

Allright, one more anecdote. I saw another discussion where a black American woman
who was staying with a white German-descended Brazilian family in south Brazil recount an experience with the young white daughter in that family. One morning as the thirteen year-old daughter observed her getting out of the shower, she told her (the black woman) she was a morena linda. The black woman thanked her and then referred to the fact she was a black woman and the white brazilian girl replied furiously "no, no don't say you are black......." That thirteen year-old white Brazilian girl already understood the negative association with the term black and wanted to warn the black American woman not to call herself such. At age thirteen, A Brazilian she already knew.

I invite any other black or brown brazilians to recount their own experiences with discrimination so A Brazilian will be forced back into hibernation.

American Historian, you have unresolved issues with yourself. Brazilians are confortable with themselves and with what they are, unlike americans. Your society is broken and people aren't really free because of that.

Your "black american woman" story is simply the exact type of negativity we don't need in this country. Probably this person was mixed, and was called that way, but she, an american victim of racism and of the "one drop rule", forced to live in a ghetto for the mind as a "different", corrected saying that "she was black". This is by no means signs of racism, as a matter of fact it's the exact opposite. She was recognized as being mixed and that was what her friend (?) talked about.

I don't know the other example of actresses, I don't know the first one you mentioned, but Camila Pitanga doesn't look black. What black woman have that type of hair? She looks mixed and any brazilian will say that. If she desires to call herself black then it's no problem, but it's not racism to say otherwise.

Once again you make a lot of wrong assumptions. Who told you other brazilians or I are whites? I don't consider myself white, but not black also, and I am here telling you that you are wrong. But we value work, honesty and intelligence, unlike some excuse-makers around here.

BTW, just use your mind for a second, if I say that someone is woman and I am a man does it make her less brazilian than I? So, how calling someone mixed or black will be otherwise? What we must make sure don't get through as a wrong notion about this country is that "blacks and pardos", as you like to call them, aren't "groupable" as ONE oppressed minority, because they aren't the same group and they aren't oppressed at all.

Your "black american woman" story is simply the exact type of negativity we don't need in this country.

Well Bobão he hit the nail on the head!! That's the way it is here in brazil. My wife, who is very attractive btw, but she is black, yet everyone wants to call her "morena", and yet she still says she is a "negra". Why don't people want to accept that when she herself does!

Well Bobão he hit the nail on the head!! That's the way it is here in brazil. My wife, who is very attractive btw, but she is black, yet everyone wants to call her "morena", and yet she still says she is a "negra". Why don't people want to accept that when she herself does!

So what? People aren't blind, if you wife is black they WILL see that. The fact is that in Brazil someone telling others "hey, I am " is something awkward. You don't hear anyone saying "hey, I am white" or "hey, I am indian". As a matter of fact, you don't hear people saying anything about it, which is a good thing.

I think people would think she has an inferiority complex, because of the self-affirmation (I need that others think this of me), and would try to be nice with her.

These comments are simply pathetic. People here have no idea of how many white failures (the blonde ones, not the mixed ones) I have seen around here, with difficulties in getting a job, not very smart, etc. I don't understand why ANYONE, black, white, yellow, red, blue, green, etc, would feel "racism" in relation to that! I am not portraying myself as better than anyone, I am just saying that I lived enough to know that I can do pretty well, and for consequence matter anybody else, because of my work.

Instead of installing this defeatist mentality, "we are oppressed", you shoul worry about removing the aspects of "all party and all f**king" that many poors has. Beer and women are at the top of their priorities, and they make fun of people that study too much. WHAT A BUNCH OF LOSERS!

o what? People aren't blind, if you wife is black they WILL see that. The fact is that in Brazil someone telling others "hey, I am " is something awkward. You don't hear anyone saying "hey, I am white" or "hey, I am indian". As a matter of fact, you don't hear people saying anything about it, which is a good thing.

Not only have I heard people call themselves, morena, morena clara, mulata, brancinho, etc, but everyday I hear someone call another person, oh, that girl, the morenia, the negrinha, etc, etc, etc.

You talk like brazilians are colored blind and NEVER speak of people in terms of color!!! Brazilians are HUNG-UP on color!!!

Hi
The colour of a person is influenced by the history and politics of a country.
Many people, for example, in South Africa changed their race classification depending who was in power. During the apartheid era all people that were “non-white” but were pale enough wanted to be classified as “white”. This “white” classification would bring privileges. The privileges you received were for example: one of the best subsidised public education systems in the world. Lived in suburbs with world class facilities, jobs were reserved for you… etc. Thousands of people got reclassified to access these privileges. Many families were split up because of these stupid policies. Some coloured families for example were split up, because one of the brothers would be classified as white and the sister as coloured or black.
In 1994 South Africa became a democracy. The new government has tried to correct the horrible imbalances created by the old Apartheid regime. South Africa has now a very strong affirmative action programme. Now we see a reversal of race classification. Thousands of people that had classified themselves as white are now reclassifying themselves as Black. Black in South Africa by the way means anyone that is Black, Coloured or Indian.
We now have a new situation where whites that are whiter than white have classified them selves as coloured. These people swear on their mother that they are mixed. In any public arena these people say they are black. This gives these people certain privileges. E.g. Seen as not have participated in cahoots with the apartheid regime, certain jobs are now only open to them etc
This has forced the government to change its focus of the affirmative action policy, less about colour, and more about if you were “a previously disadvantaged” person. These changes are significant because now White women are also classified as previously disadvantaged”

We should always question any government (or individual) that tries to classify other people. The other question to ask is any race classification method scientific. Probably not!!! So it’s really up to individual to classify oneself. This does not only apply to race classification, but also to religious affiliation, cultural links, linguistic group etc. If someone says he is white/black/jewish who I’m I to say he/she is wrong.
In other words the colour of a person is only skin deep and we should use other more important methods to judge individuals, for example by their deeds and character. We should help others less fortunate than us, irrespective of their colour. Human decency and respect goes along way in building a better world. Throwing mud at one another to see what sticks does not seem the best way to debate an issue.

I agree with you. What americans want, and you can notice it by many other articles in this site, is simply to ban mulatos and call many whites black against their will, based on racial myth like "The italians mixed with blacks from north africa, so they aren't white. The portuguese mixed with moors so they aren't white, etc".

This is simply sick. My grandfather came from a poorer part of the country to a richer one to make a better life for himself (YES, IT WAS IN BRAZIL, THE LAND PEOPLE SAY IT IS "IMPOSSIBLE"). He was self-taught and taught himself electronics and had many kinds of jobs. The result of his efforts was that he had a confortable life and could provide a good level of living for his kids, and none of them were blonde. He retired with a nice job, that would be a kind of manager.

Why is it to difficult for some to fight for their own improvement? There's no free lunch in this life, work for it!

Listening to these losers to whine about "racism" boils my blood because I have seen many examples the one above of people that actually fought for their future and succeeded here in Brazil. But the same losers will make fun of anyone that spend to much time reading and studying, is this right? These values are wrong. I am tired of listening to people bragging about how many girlfriends they have (at the same time), how many beers they drink, how many parties they go, and then cry "racism" if they don't achieve anything in life!!!

Really boils your blood, does it? You are an angry person. But it´s not your fault. Keep talking, keep blogging, and don´t get discouraged. Your "speak Portuguese" plan didn´t succeed, but at least you tried. Hang in there. It´s good therapy. Remember we care about you.

He was self-taught and taught himself electronics and had many kinds of jobs.

Did he participate in any pharaceutical studies??

Ric, I can only assume that the display of real facts left you without words. It's a nice sign that both you and your bigot friend Bo couldn't do anything but silly remarks in front of the truth, this conversation is now over.

"...this conversation is now over."

I sure hope so A Brazilian. But just so you know, you are being watched by me and the other Americans. The plot to destroy Brazil will not end. I am watching you and I could even reappear under another name. Pretty frightening, huh.

I live in the U.S. and like others whether here or abroad, I've seen, and experienced racism and prejudice. I see how the earth is changing and wonder when will the barrier ills of racism just die..When will human beings understand that a spirit has no color or race to it. It doesn't matter whether your skin is white, black, red, hispanic, whatever. No one out there is better than you and you are no better than anyone else. We are all created of equal worth. So what if your culture and beliefs are different. We are to learn and grow by expanding your knowledge to teach others in becoming diverse. It's interesting, you can have water, you can have steam, or you can have ice. Which one of these is not made up of H2O? Try to see equal worthiness in all people.

For a moment "American Historian" I thought you were the user Ric. All these reactions from brazilians were to lies posted on this site and advertised as "the truth", so, logically, you are the ones being watched.

I´m not a user. Although I defend your right to state that I am.

But it does seem to me that your desire to defend your nationalism has put you in an untenable position. Every statement about Brazil that can be construed as less than flattering is termed a lie. You give no quarter. No footnote is worthy of a second glance, no expert is to be believed, no statistics can be relied upon, it´s all a conspiracy. While it´s true that even paranoics can have dangerous enemies, your demeanor does more harm to your cause than good because your mind appears to be closed and it´s readily apparent. Instead you insult the Swiss, demonize the Americans, unable to separate argument from nationality, in short, a total lack of objectivity. That tends to bomb the very cause you purport to champion. Hope this analysis doesn´t damage your self esteem. If it does, just ignore it.

No footnote is worthy of a second glance, no expert is to be believed, no statistics can be relied upon, it´s all a conspiracy.

Strawman argument. There are experts and "experts", ways and "ways" of constructing any reasoning, and that's what was said, not only by me by also by others all the time in this thread. Don't be so naive to interpret words and texts literally, with the proper use of rethoric and twisting of facts one can prove whatever one wants. Which seems to be the case in here, not only in this article bu in many others.

Instead you insult the Swiss

You can't be serious. Any person that comes to this forum regularly is well aware of what this "ch.c" sub-human does. Every single article he posts a hate message. His fame and the treatment he receives is well deserved.

The rest of your post is worthless, I just pointed out the biggest non-sensical parts of it.

"A Brazilian" and "e harmony" me convenceram que nao existe e nunca existiu racismo no Brasil. Sabe de uma coisa, a unica razao que existiu escravidao no Brasil foi porque o Brasil foi forcado pelos Americanos. Depois eles fizeram o Brasil ser o ultimo pais do mundo ocidental a abolir escravidao.

Aboliu coisa nenhuma. Só que foi terceirizado.

Don't be so naive to interpret words and texts literally, with the proper use of rethoric and twisting of facts one can prove whatever one wants. Which seems to be the case in here, not only in this article bu in many others.

Really? PROVE something by torting and twisting words?? Well, you would be the expert, doesn't make a lot of sense to me although.

OK, twist and tort some words for me and PROVE brazil didn't have 50,000 people murdered in 2005.

Olá. A thing that nobody ever mentions, especially activists that love critizing Brazil, is that by the time slavery was abolished most of the black population were already free. There were some other laws passed prior to the final abolishment, like the "ventre livre", that gave freedom for newborns. And many of those free blacks participated in the abolishment movement. This is one topic for those interested to learn more to research.

I saw the other day on TV a mestizo, son a slave and a portuguese, that was lawyer or something like that. And helped slaves to get free.

I am don't think the end of slavery here or anywhere else had anything to do with the goodwill of people's hearts. It happened only because it wasn't economically viable anymore, either here in Brazil or in the US or anywhere else. After the industrial revolution that happened in England the balance of power shifted from land owners to the owners of the means fo production in the industries, and gradually the rest of the world adapted to it. But is a topic of investigation in itself.

The fact is that at one point in time, European immigrants were cheaper than slaves.

You saw it on TV ...or something like that. You watch TV and have a computer. Whereas I actually know my way around in Pitimandeua. The black colony left over from slave days which has been running itself in a semi-tribal fashion ever since the slaves were freed. May those whom you denigrate take notice, this guy is João Ninguem, stuck in some big city, the urban equivilant of a Peão Brabo.

Putz. Get a life Ric.

"A Brazilian"

What religion are you? If you don't mind me asking?

Does my religion make any difference to what's written?

Would you say that it thru religion than one gets a life, or not? Just asking.

I don't see how this can be relevant to this discussion.

I don't discriminate against any religion.
Majority of Brazil is Catholic right? What other religions?

Estimated 74% Roman Catholic, half of which actually practice their religion; 26% Pentecostal or Protestant; 4% other, including Spiritism per se, 1.3%, and the following each with less than 1%, obviously some with much less, Afro-Brazilian, Buddism, Seich-No-Iê, Bahai, Hindu, Jewish reported as .06% and Islam at .01%.

Should read 64% instead of 74%.

the people on here who resort to ad hominem attacks should be ashamed of themselves

1) I am in no way endorsing the idea that the conditions of race, racism and racial identity are in any way better or worse in the United States than they are in Brazil.

Comment: Spoken like a true liberal. Unable to make moral judgments.

2) The United States of America is a highly racist, sexist, homophobic, class-based society.

Comment: Right on, dude! You couldn't be a card-carrying leftist without regurgitating such a load of horse-s**t about America learned from your days of indoctrination at the university where you were a "student of sociology."

3) Race....race...race

Comment:Why is all of life seen through the prism of race with you guys, rather, than say, through values?

Stop talking ! If you believe in anything you say about having peace and eqality.
I challenge any one writing in this forum to work for better conditions in Brasil. I know that some of the worst racists in the world have made a haven in Brasil.
If fact when reading some of the replies in this forum the racists rear their heads with off time comments regarding the, his-story of the Moors and the Portugese.
History is nothing more than oral tales. Which always seem to lean toward story teller's beliefs or social ideaology. If you are speaking in defense of Brasilian racial and social
policies you're nothing more than a coward afraid to carry your own weight in a world of changing realities. If you call for change then stand up and work for peace and equality.
otherwise just continue to say or do nothing.

1) Spoken like a true liberal. Unable to make moral judgments.

Comment: spoken like a true neo-con. You guys have no moral judgement!

2) Right on, dude! You couldn't be a card-carrying leftist without regurgitating such a load of horse-s**t about America learned from your days of indoctrination at the university where you were a "student of sociology."

Comment: Oh, come now. So you're a card-carrying neo-con who sucks Karl Rove's c**k. Wow. We are all impressed, Jose Chung, if that IS your real name. Now why don't you put on your little uniform grab your pop-gun and scoot on over to Baghdad and kill some ragheads for us?????

3) Why is all of life seen through the prism of race with you guys, rather, than say, through values?

Comment: Because neocon a*****es like you made the world a racist place, and humanity is too busy cleaning up all your racist/sexist/classist s**t. Dumbf**k neo-con lackey/Bus**te faggot.

I see you are back Lord Invader. Where have you been my man?

Comment: Because neocon a*****es like you made the world a racist place, and humanity is too busy cleaning up all your racist/sexist/classist s**t. Dumbf**k neo-con lackey/Bus**te faggot.

Correction, americans and europeans think the world is racist place.

Having just relocated to SP, I can speak of racism in the US, actually I have spent more time in Latin America as of late than the US, but this issue transcends borders. There will always be racism, but hopefully through education and understanding it can be kept to a minimum. By making stringent laws punishing racism and discrimination, and enforcing them, this will allow any country, to move beyond race and color.

Correction, americans and europeans think the world is racist place.

You're so clueless. Try leaving your elite upper-middle-class neighborhood some time and taking a good look at the REAL world for a change. Plenty of Asians, Mid-Easterners and BRAZILIANS agree that racism exists in the world, so stop pining everything on white Western people.

so stop pining everything on white Western people.

Last time I checked in the Atlas Brazil was in the western hemisphere, did anything change while I was sleeping?

Now, not only americans call their country "America" in detriment to the rest of the countries in America, but now they call themselves "Western", in detriment to everyone else in the western hemisphere.

Well, good luck, Bob. I´m an American. Born in America. Never heard a Mexican call him or herself and American. Never heard a Canadian that wanted to be called an American. Never met a Puerto Rican who called himself an American. Doesn´t mean that some don´t exist. And they really are Americans.

How about we let you have the phrase, "southern hemisphere" all to yourself?

Maybe the Americans copyrighted it, I don´t know. So sue them.

But we are all americans, your use is inaccurate.

The same way an "european" is someone from the continent of Europe, and african is someone from the continent of Africa, I don't know why "americans" insist in calling themselves americans. In defiance to all logic and good sense.

Well, Bob, I am totally good with the fact that based on your opinion, my use of "American" is inaccurate. I feel that you are rather provincial, and I don´t mean that unkindly.

I don't know why "americans" insist in calling themselves americans

The rest of the world, with the exception of a handful of countries in the Americas, seem to call people from the United States as well.....and we never have required them to do so, lol.

Europe - european
Asia - asian
Africa - african
America - ?

Complete the name given to the dwellers of the continent above.

Ah, but there´s where you missed it, Bob. There are continents, also sub-continents like India. We have North America, Central America, and South America. The word America by itself without the adjectives invariably refers to the USA, common usage, impossible to successfully fight it, but don´t give up. Don´t let us down. Keep up the campaign.

...
written by Ric, 2007-02-06 22:30:45

Ah, but there´s where you missed it, Bob. There are continents, also sub-continents like India. We have North America, Central America, and South America. The word America by itself without the adjectives invariably refers to the USA, common usage, impossible to successfully fight it, but don´t give up. Don´t let us down. Keep up the campaign.

LOL.

I think race cannot be ignored because it presents itself to us everyday in popular culture. It affects how we perceive ourselves.
I think it's especially important for African and people with African blood to know about the history of race and its future (it's considered almost arbitrary by scientists from the Human Genome Project). Presently, history is written from the perspective of the survivors, of the conquerors and people who don't want to remember.
Because slavery lasted over four centuries, it played a major role in the lives of many people in the world and left a lasting social and cultural impact. Many wealthy British families made their money off selling slaves; slaves produced the goods that the empire sold. Arab people also used slaves (the word black in Arabic means slave). Because African culture, rituals and language was suppressed, enslaved people had to recreate their culture in new forms. African Americans were expected and did follow popular standards but also recreated them. As did the people in Brazil.
Race first came into play to justify the perceived physical supremacy between Europeans and Africans. It created a structure that justified slavery on the grounds that Europeans were White and native Africans were simply Negro slaves without tribes (Tribes are quite important in modern day Africa. They predate recognized countries).
Race has come to be how we label people and ourselves. The primary difference between African Americans and other black peoples in other countries is how we choose to remember and describe ourselves. I think that anyone who has African blood should be able to remember their ancestors who looked very much like black people. I think black people, as all people of different nationalities, can be beautiful. Black can mean being beautiful. For example, an African American may call himself black to remember his African ancestors (everyone in America has black and white ancestors- after the civil war, people with 1/4 or 1/8 black blood left the south in droves. Unfortunately, passing allowed these people better opportunities). An African can remember themselves in terms of their tribe and their country.
In outlawing race, I don't want to forget about the accomplishments of enslaved Africans or to sweep issues under the rug.
Having African blood should not be a stigma; however tragic slavery and the post reconstruction era remains, I recognize that enslaved Africans were not victims completely. They had lives and culture and dreams and hopes. I just want to remember and thank them.

Thank You. You have made a really good point. I am so sick of how Brazilians bash the United States as racist and their country as a racial harmony. The only reason White Brazilians won't admit racism exists is because they don't want to deal with it. Yes, The United States is not perfect, but its better to live there and in Canada than in Brazil. Not to mention, they need to get over the fact that their"racial democracy" doesn't exist( if you can even consider their country a democracy.) However, I will point that not only Brazil is racist but almost all of Latin America. In other places such as Mexico and Peru the whiter citizens are the ones that have the better economic advantage. Shut up Brazil and realize you are racist. The United States has dealt and is dealing with their racial issues. Now its your turn!