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Slavery Will Only End in Brazil When Condo and Favela Kids Go to Same Schools PDF Print E-mail
Written by Cristovam Buarque   
Monday, 16 April 2007 12:06

Favela kid in BrazilOn March 25, 1884, the state of Ceará began its Abolition of Slavery, which was carried out that same year, four and a half years before the rest of the Brazil. But the city of Redenção, in the same state, abolished slavery even earlier: on January 1, 1883, all the sugarcane plantation owners of that region freed their slaves and sealed a pact pledging that they would never again return to using servile labor. It was a something like the 1980s Brazilian slogan "Torture, never again."

One of these plantation owners, Colonel Benvindo, declared on that occasion that "the stain on my life was to have been a slave master."

That pact began months before, when another plantation owner, Gil Ferreira Gomes, decided to free his slaves and convinced the other owners to do the same. Few of them accepted his arguments.

The others said that, if the freeing of the slaves were desirable, then their slaves should be purchased and freed. Gil Gomes set out to raise the money, winning the support of the abolitionist society in Fortaleza and buying all the slaves with the condition that their replacement would be a salaried workforce.

One hundred twenty-four years later, we have not yet completed the work of Gil Gomes and the other plantation owners of Redenção, which before Abolition was not called "redemption" but Vila Acarapé. Nor have we completed the Lei Áurea, the federal law abolishing slavery, which came in 1888.

Because abolition will only be completed when the children from the mansion attend the same schools as the children from the slave quarters, when the children from the condominium attend the same schools as the children from the favela. And when all schools are of excellent quality.

Brazil knows how to do it. We have the resources. But we are not doing it because we have lost our capacity for indignation about the exclusion.

Gil Gomes and his colleagues had this in 1881 when confronted with the social exclusion and the vices of wealth. We are not saying that the stain of our life is living in a time when there are children abandoned on street corners, girls prostituting themselves on the beaches, a mere 18% of young people finishing their secondary education.

We are witnessing the brutal inequality as if it were something natural. We are not revolting. Instead of 19th-century slave-ocratic masters of the sugarcane plantations, we are masters of the 21st-century income concentration.

Today we consider ourselves just as blameless when confronted with the poverty as did the 19th-century Brazilians when confronted with slavery. We see the inequality as something natural and permanent, something imported from the past.

We have also lost our capacity to feel concern for the greater interest of the country, the nation, the people and the future. We continue to be individualistic and corporativistic. We are not looking out for the other or for the group as a whole.

With such a degree of egotism, we are forgetting to seek equality of schooling, of rich and poor. We do not want to seek out other sources of resources to bring about the educational revolution.

When it is mentioned that this additional abolition is going to cost 7 billion reais (US$ 3.46 billion), everyone stops; everyone gives up. They do not act as Gil Gomes did and seek the money necessary for the modern abolition - the school.

We have lost the sensibility possessed by those slave masters of Acarapé/Redenção. In that epoch it was even possible to say that there were heroic sugarcane plantation owners. Today, only heroes are the excluded poor, the illiterate, the day laborers, but, instead of freeing them, we are thinking of building more jails.

Were it not for them and for the legacy of the actions taken one hundred twenty years ago by the abolitionists Joaquim Nabuco, José do Patrocínio, and a princess, it would be difficult for abolition to be possible now. The proof is that we continually delay its completion.

Unlike Colonel Benvindo, we are incapable of recognizing the stain and shouting, "Lack of education, never again."

Cristovam Buarque has a Ph.D. in economics. He is a PDT senator for the Federal District and was Governor of the Federal District (1995-98) and Minister of Education (2003-04). He is the current president of the Senate Education Commission. Last year he was a presidential candidate. You can visit his homepage - www.cristovam.com.br - and write to him at This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it

Translated from the Portuguese by Linda Jerome - This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .

Comments (119)Add Comment
additional abolition is going to cost 7 billion reais (US$ 3.46 billion), ?????
written by ch.c.., April 16, 2007
Doubtful the additional amount would be that low !
Assuming 20 millions children (could be much more) it would represent only Us$ 173.- per student and per year !
And that would be for a bad schooling, better classes/teachers costing again much more !
$R 7,000,000,000,000 buys a lot of building construction in Brazil. 'build them they will come'
written by AES, April 16, 2007
$3.46 Billion dollars buys a lot of Educational infrstructure, ie schools, in Brazil. Educational facilities. First the buildings the rest, will follow.
Not just buildings but everything else needed too
written by nesnej, April 16, 2007
It's not just buildings that are needed, but higher salaries to attract more educated people to the profession of teaching. Brazil, as of now actually, spends quite a bit on educating the elite in public universities, perhaps if the wealthy had to pay some of the share of public university education this money could be used to fund better primary and secondary education. In addition, if the elite had to directly bear some costs of this University education they may not be so lackadaisical about all the inefficiency and stealing that goes on by people on the university payrolls. Maybe UFRJ could even fix the windows in its hospital, so we wouldn't have to be embarrassed when picking people up from the airport and then having to explain that that is one of the better Brazilian Public Universities.
Build the schools, then the salaries, first the money. Then the accountability, then the LAW
written by AES, April 16, 2007
An enormous percentage of taxes are payed by a minority of Americans:
The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes.
The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.

At least put the windows in for the Pan American Games. Can't have Rio looking bad. Act as if Brazil is the intelligent prosperous equitable country that it is becoming. I am afraid that the Favelas will be perceived as less than charming. In fact they are beyond cultural
comprehension, for Westerners. Get them to Ipanema or Copacabana as quickly as possible. It would probably be better to have visiting international flights land in Santos Dumont as the drive is more picturesque and the smell of industrial pollution less. Perhaps they could be all scheduled to land at night.
To:AES
written by João da Silva, April 16, 2007
Perhaps they could be all scheduled to land at night.


I liked this idea better.Another humble suggestion from my part.First blindfold the foreigners and and then put them in Cascavel and Urutu tanks and take them directly to Copacabana and Ipanema.Imprison them in their hotels for their own safety and escort them every day to the Pan American games in those armoured vehicles.Also provide them with bullet proof vests.

I am afraid that the Favelas will be perceived as less than charming. In fact they are beyond cultural
comprehension, for Westerners.


I beg to differ from you, AES.The foreigners may end up appreciating the architectural beauty of the favelas and the culture prevalent there and taking the positve aspects of these places to their home countries.To enable them to do so,their blindfolds will be removed for two hours during the night time to go on fact finding missions into the favelas.

Sorry,AES, however much I like you ,I aint planning to visit your city any time soon.
João & AES
written by Professor, April 17, 2007
I beg to differ from you, AES.The foreigners may end up appreciating the architectural beauty of the favelas and the culture prevalent there and taking the positve aspects of these places to their home countries.

In fact they are beyond cultural
comprehension, for Westerners.


Actually from my point of view, I first found the Favelas " beyond MY cultural
comprehension. Seeing a Favela on a mountain side (Prime Real Estate) by California standards was incredible the architecture was a monument to human
resourcefulness, surpassing the arquiteture I witnessed in Jamaica.
This is the point where you put down the National Geographic and begin to experience reality for yourself.
My greatest experience was dancing in a ceremony with naked Indians in the Amazon after finishing a nice Jacaré main course!

Even dodging stray bullets in Rio was an adventure!

I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman where the Self Help section was. She said if she told me it would defeat the purpose.
Dennis Miller
Prison vs School
written by AES, April 17, 2007
Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations discusses, at length, the importance of an educated populace. Studies show comparisons of the cost of one year of school to the cost of one year of prison demonstrating that prison is far more costly. Though the links between education and prisons are debatable, evidence suggests a strong correlation between lack of education and likelihood of committing a crime and being incarcerated. States with low-dropout rates have a lower rate of incarceration.
The bull stops here
written by AES, April 17, 2007
If those that can do not attend those that need. Then those that have will become the Bol of the Ferra dol Bol

" A government is not supposed to provide wealth to the citizens.
A government must provide a positive environment for entrepreneurs, whoever they are.
And those who succeed, must pay something back to the government and society , through taxes "
...
written by Luca, Rome, April 17, 2007
Parental planning is the only solution. Poor families with 4 & 5 kids ...Single parent families led by a girl aged 14-17 in a favela.No future
...
written by Luca, Rome, April 17, 2007
I totally agree kids from different backgrounds should be mixed together but rich white families in Rio are so racist they'd pay any kind of money for any private school to avoid that.
race or class? Parental Planning
written by nesnej, April 17, 2007
I don't think it would be beneficial to get into the race versus class argument again on this website, but there are varying opinions as to why Brazilian society is structured the way it is. Yes Parental planning is a good thing, but there are many people in the favelas who only have a few children, yet these children are denied opportunity anyways. Even with one or two children your average favelado can't afford to send them to anything but the s**tty public school. The worse part is the money is there, already,Brazil has a tax collection rate higher than many industrialized countries and on par with parts of socialist Europe. The problem is this money when it is not stolen is funneled into high pensions for lazy, non productive government workers who got their jobs in the first place by passing civil service exams that only the educated elite could pass. So it is a cycle, have enough money from their government job to pay for education and then pass civil service exams which entitles them to enough money to pay to educate their own kids so they can enter good universities and pass civil service exams and collect a large government paycheck/pension. It's welfare for a few who are the least needy. And everybody else has to pay.
remember this one cant Cristovam Buarque make up his mind
written by forrest allen brown, April 17, 2007

João da Silva
cant you get him to make up his mind !!!
or is all his spending for his own pocket
all you have to do to cut some of the kids is by having the pope say condom use them


Some problems are not solved in isolation. One example of this is the violence, inequality, and corruption triangle in Brazil. These elements feed off each other, demanding a joint solution.

As long as national politics are contaminated by corruption, the bad example set by the politicians will serve as an incentive to criminality. When he sees that a politician has hidden money in his undershorts, an unemployed young man will ask himself if he too could not obtain money illicitly. Above all when he perceives that the money was diverted from social programs that could have met his needs.

Building a peaceful society will demand a revolution that confronts the three problems. Education is the principal vector to combat them simultaneously.

But it is an illusion to believe that schooling alone will solve the problems. Education reduces inequality, violence and corruption, but this takes years.

At the present time, the violence and corruption must be quelled. The use of a fountain pen instead of a revolver does not diminish the gravity of the crime, and it increases the amount stolen.

Jail for the criminals and corrupt of today, and school today to prevent the crimes and corruption of tomorrow.

There is a known solution to the educational problem: the federal government - and not simply the states and the municipalities - must make it a concern. It is necessary to define minimum standards for the public schools; to establish full-day sessions in all of them; to guarantee well-educated, well-paid and dedicated teachers and well-constructed, well-equipped buildings.

This takes time to accomplish and demands federal resources. But it will do little in the fight against the criminality in the streets today.

To confront the current violence, we must first understand that this is no longer a crisis; it is a tragedy of enormous proportions. Second, that it is a war promoted by an organized, heavily armed, parallel power. Third, that the problem is national and not local and must be the responsibility of all elected officials.

the other part
written by forrest allen brown, April 17, 2007
The federal government needs to confront the matter and appoint someone to be responsible for it. The Ministry of Justice has already shown that it is incapable of confronting the crime.

With so many duties of its own, it is leaving the combat against violence to the states, just as the Ministry of Education is leaving K-12 education to the municipalities. Besides a Ministry of Justice responsible for guaranteeing Brazilians their rights, Brazil needs a ministry that would guarantee its citizens their security.

Ten of the current ministries should be closed and one created that is dedicated exclusively to security, as was proposed by the team elaborating President Lula's program. The team heard him affirm that he would not make this a pet project.

It is fundamental to declare war upon the crime that has acquired the characteristics of terrorism. In that war, it will be necessary to establish national coordination of state policies and police, to define standards of preparation, to eliminate the brutal salary inequalities existing among police forces of different states and between the troops and their commanders.

To permit the deployment of the police troops among states; to remove all the penitentiary directors until triage separates the corrupt from those with integrity; to replace the large prisons with small ones; and to separate the prisoners by type of crime and criminality.

To assure more resources for security and prohibit the government from making contingency use of these funds; to set up an efficient anti-crime intelligence system; to incorporate a million young people into six months of civilian-military service.

Above all, it is necessary to make the judiciary system more efficient and moral and incorporate it into the war against violence.

This is possible and it formed part of the program of the government elected in 2002. But President Lula refused to assume his responsibility.

Perhaps this may be the greatest of the problems in winning the war against violence: to have a president who takes the problem as his or her own and confronts the cursed triangle of violence, corruption and inequality.

Jail to combat the violence and corruption of today. And school to guarantee equal opportunities and to reduce the inequality.

Cristovam Buarque has a Ph.D. in economics. He is the candidate of the PDT to the presidency of Brazil in the October 2006 elections. Buarque is also a senator for the Federal District and was Governor of the Federal District (1995-9smilies/cool.gif and Minister of Education (2003-04). You can visit his homepage - www.cristovam.com.br - and write to him at \n This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it '> This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it is e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it .

To:Forrest Allen Brown/remember this one cant Cristovam Buarque make up his mind
written by João da Silva, April 17, 2007
Hi Forrest,

Since you specifically asked my opinion, you deserve my answer.Your comments reflect the line of thoughts of many Brazilians.Since you have lived here and married to a Brazilian lady, you obviously have observed a lot and it is interesting to read your analysis of the current situation.In fact, you have given some alternative solutions too.

However, to take action on all fronts,it requires intelligent and strong leadership. But I don´t think a populist government elected with the promise of continuing government hand outs is capable of exercising such leadership.Our elected officials are interested in enriching themselves and remaining in power for EVER.

Re Cristovam Buarque, I dont think he is a bad person. In fact, he is a well meaning one and I have heard some nice comments about him from people who have worked with him.However, a large majority of the Brazilians was not willing to vote for a Ph.D for the President.BTW, I know a couple of Brazilians who have got Ph.Ds from U.S. and Canadian Universities and are in teaching positions in the Federal Universities. You should know that the Presidents (Rectors) of these universities are elected by the teaching as well as supportive staff and the Students. My friends have no chance of being elected as Rectors!!.

I dont know if Cristovam Buarque reads the comments in this forum.It would be interesting to invite him to participate.
To: Forrest Allen Brown
written by João da Silva, April 17, 2007
I forgot to add that even an elected leader has to make hard calls sometimes and make unpopular decisions. I dont think ours are willing to do for obvious reasons.

To confront the current violence, we must first understand that this is no longer a crisis; it is a tragedy of enormous proportions. Second, that it is a war promoted by an organized, heavily armed, parallel power. Third, that the problem is national and not local and must be the responsibility of all elected officials.


You know , a few years ago, I read somewhere that ancient Poland was governed by about 500 land barons.Unless ALL the barons decided on consensual basis, no law was implemented, including the the ones that guaranteed the defense of the country. Since these landed gentry did not agree upon anything, the Germans,Russians, etc invaded it without any problem. I do not know how far this was true. All I can say is that parallel powers take over (especially the heavily armed ones),if the elected officials fail to decide.

Talking about Poland, I wonder how Poland is after Leh Waleska left.
Global Probabilities
written by Professor, April 17, 2007
All I can say is that parallel powers take over (especially the heavily armed ones),if the elected officials fail to decide.


As global economies continue to form, global communities begin to depend more on one another. Brazil might be forced into certain actions to improve it self whether it has the immediate capacity/capability or not.
In the event of radical global climate changes, future wars, catastrophes, global governmental destabilizing etc.

Brazil could become a prime target for take over to guarantee a reliable food Basket.
Worst case scenario could include some form slavery.

...
written by e harmony, April 17, 2007
race or class? Parental Planning
written by nesnej, 2007-04-17 12:14:08


I have some questions, asked in honest curiosity, because I'm not sure what to make out of Brazil when it comes to certain issues that revolve around her strong classed based society and populations living in the favelas. Actually I have questions and some perceptions already formed or in formation. Now, this does not mean my perception are correct or even half-way accurate.

I read something about a sociologist from the U.S. who traveled throughout South America and wrote about what I believe he called a culture of poverty. But his proposition was different than what many might think. He basically asserted that many if not most of the poor in Latin America remain poor (and from one generation to the next) because they themselves have a culture of blame and dependence.

For all the negative talk on Brazil regarding Brazil's greater feudalistic structure, wherein the rich reap so much rewards, little is ever noted to the benefit all feudal systems had. They were inherently "welfare" before the emergence of the "welfare state." Feudal lords had a responsibility, built into the customs and culture, toward their subjects. The problem with Democracy (citizen in contrast to subject) and the concept of equality of men, is that it is presupposed that all men are responsible for themselves and their future regardless of their station in life.

I hardly ever hear of any self responsibility of a favela person on these boards. It is automatically assumed, that they lack essential equality (subjects) with the wealthy (nobility), and consequently the wealthy (nobility) should be responsible for those in the favelas (subjects). Now don't get me wrong, I'm more a "welfare state" kind of guy than I am one of these people that are far right-wing. At the same time, in a democracy, if one wants to rise from out of poverty, they must have more a method of thought as a citizen rather than a subject. I'm not approving of Brazil's greatly unequal society either. But I have read on some of the educational levels of some of the Brazilian well-to-do and quite honestly I was more than a little bit impressed. I mean there are some Brazilian well-to-do families where everyone in the family speak about 5 different languages - there educational level is such they would be considered "hard-chargers" in the U.S. Our President in the United States right now, comes from out of a very, very, wealthy family. To my knowledge he only speaks English - and he has made it known on tv that he does not and has never cared much for books (reading).

My impression of Brazil, and I could be very wrong, is that it is a much more culturally feudalistic society than say... the United States. If that is the case it may have its benefits and it may have its downfalls.

Also, in the case of a place like Rio or Salvador, could it be the culture is just more leisure and relaxed moving then certain other parts of Brazil such as Sao Paulo? It is this way in the United States. In general a worker from Wisconsin is considered par excellent in productivity in a place like Tennessee. And let me tell you, I am not the only one from the U.S. Midwest to notice the incredible slow pace at which southern folks in Tennessee move. I remember stopping in at a restaurant in Tennessee to be flabbergasted at the waitresses slowness. Our average speed of movement in work, in the Midwest, is considered super-fast to many if not most people in Tennessee.

The first big thing Brazil needs to work on relating to labor, in my humble opinion, is to increase wages of the average worker. That should be emphasized over creation of masses of low paying jobs or putting favela kids in schools with the rich and etc cetera. Increase the wages, which means more taxable income, if local public schooling is financed by tax dollars or property taxes, then more money can be created for the improvements of local public schooling by the citizens and not the subjects (or nobility).
To:AES/Global Probabilities
written by João da Silva, April 17, 2007
Brazil could become a prime target for take over to guarantee a reliable food Basket.


Not only food. Add natural resources,skilled labor and professionals of high calibre in diversified fields,huge land mass, water resources,long coastal line,etc;

When I made my comment about parallel power, I didn´t mean external power.But your reply includes this scenario also and it is worth analysing. I wonder if our policy makers take this possibility into consideration,while chartering the future course for Brazil.
Akamai
written by AES, April 17, 2007
Geo political history is played in decades. The curtain is lifted like a great chess move from time to time and the movement of the end game is made obvious. It is with a kind of metaphoric irony that Karpov (world chess champion) was arrested over the weekend for 'gathering'. It is no random event that Putin is in Venezuala, and dancing with Cuba. It is also no random event that the U.S. is having lunch with our nine fingered leader of one of the greatest/potential countries on the planet. But their events as Sherlock Holmes used to say 'the game is afoot' my dear Joao.
Now the failure of any system that does not reward the individual, uniqueness, effort is failure, it may take 40 years ie Russian Socialism, or Chinese Marxism, but if the individual is not recognized he becomes depressed, and the Society seeks its lowest common denomenator. Or else it becomes divided between those that have power and those that dont. Nepatism, feudalism, patronage.
In pure capitalism it is helpful to be born rich, and the country of Brazil has been born rich. But it reminds me of the Indians selling the island of Manhattan for a string of beads (classic U.S. mythology) or trading gold for a mirror or a knife. It is the nature of capitalism to ruthlessness, but it is not a despotism, there is always choice. If you dont like it try Alaska. The money is good up their but it is cold as hell, but in capitalism, it takes money to make money. It is also in the capitalists interest to have an intelligent society, a society of individuation, as opposed to a totaitarian society of obedient, serfish cogs. I have been behind the iron curtain when it was, it was as if the life had gone out of everyone, the color was, cruel, and grey. It was a land without color, save black and white.
And yes I used to conjectue that the reason the South lost the Civil War was because they talked to slow, by the time they had communicated a military decision the war was lost.
Hawaii is like that. They move at a pace you have never seen before, if they have nothing else, they have their lives, their time, their pride, and their honor. It drives New Yorkers mad. It amuses the Hawaiians, the pace of civilization. They are not particularly interested in Civilization. They are more interested in being 'pow hanna' (done with work) hit the beach 'brudda', smoke some 'da kine' and dig the sunset and the surf breaking over Makaha. In Hawaii it is about 'ohana' family. They are/were a loving generous people. There was a time a few hundred years ago when they were neolithic feudalistic ruthless. To look upon royalty was death. But now they watch, fish, barbecue, family, amuse themselves with stories of the insane 'haoli' (foreigners). The word for smart in Hawaiian is 'akamai'. And there are many kinds of smart. Knowing what is of value and what is not. How to fish, grow food, and open a coco nut with a sharp stick, also how to use a machette. I learned a lot when I lived in Hawaii, mostly what I didn't know.
TO:Prof/AES
written by João da Silva, April 17, 2007
Sorry prof.My earlier message was addressed to you (re Global probablities).Inadvertantly titled to "AES". I am sure you and AES would not mind . I expect him to express his opinion about our theory.

Apologize for my muck up
To: AES/Akamai
written by João da Silva, April 17, 2007
You dont believe in taking prisoners either, eh, my dear AES

It is also no random event that the U.S. is having lunch with our nine fingered leader of one of the greatest/potential countries on the planet


I know who that 9 fingered leader (I am reasonably educated) of one of the potentially greatest countries.

Putin,Chavez and Uncle Fidel are all getting close to each other trying to f**k Brazil. There is another big thing called "The Chinese Connection". This is what that bothers me.

You better pay attention to the Chinese factor.

BTW, the international chess game is becoming more and more interesting. With or without Karpov.
...
written by Ric, April 17, 2007
Yes, it´s China. Forget the minor players.
João bee-have!
written by Professor, April 17, 2007
When I made my comment about parallel power, I didn´t mean external power.

My thoughts went a little past what you mentioned as a future possibility.
The reason being we must also take in to account other possibilities as well.
The world population is over 6.5 billion and we are sure to add another billion in the next seven years.
Brazil has numerous valuable resources, the world depends on Brazil for its resources and is becoming more dependant. As the years pass this dependency should increase proportionately.
To who much is given much is required!

Albert Einstein once said that if the bees disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left".
http://news.nationalgeographic...-bees.html

Uncertain times in an uncertain world could cause the unimaginable.

Revelation 6:5-6
And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny (a day's wages), and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
To: Ric
written by João da Silva, April 17, 2007
written by Ric, 2007-04-17 21:12:08

Yes, it´s China. Forget the minor players.


Who are the minor players,Ric ? Be more specific. I know what your answer is! Prof and AES (I, unwittingly) come out with some interesting theories.

Look, right now, the Chinese are in a big way in Pará and other states , where there are plenty of natural resources. They are also incentivating the Brazilians to plant,plant and plant (Soya). If the Brazilians sugar cane cutters are unwilling to accept the wages stipulated by the labor laws, sure, the Chinese can bring in their own people. Remember how the Pacific railway was built in your country?

To:Professor
written by João da Silva, April 17, 2007
My thoughts went a little past what you mentioned as a future possibility.
The reason being we must also take in to account other possibilities as well.
The world population is over 6.5 billion and we are sure to add another billion in the next seven years.
Brazil has numerous valuable resources, the world depends on Brazil for its resources and is becoming more dependant. As the years pass this dependency should increase proportionately.
To who much is given much is required!


Probably, you were in Sandhurst, while I was in Chatham House!. You made another bloody good point.BTW, I liked what Ric said about minor players.
AES said..
written by Professor, April 17, 2007
It is also in the capitalists interest to have an intelligent society, a society of individuation, as opposed to a totaitarian society of obedient, serfish cogs.

Good point! Capitalism for the most part is the glue holding the machine together. If the machine comes apart it might be necessary to replace the cogs with Serfs.
Also you can have a Capitalist society who gives the Surfs a sense of individualism and keeps them obedient. However, once and awhile a Surf realizes his true identity and in his disparity eliminates his perceived oppressors. (I refer to the University incident as a possible example).
Professor
written by Luca, Rome, April 18, 2007
It is spelled serf not "surf" anyway :-)
Ma-Luca
written by Professor, April 18, 2007
It is spelled serf not "surf" anyway :-)


Surf is the name of a laundry detergent, most commonly known by said name in the United States, the United Kingdom, and Ireland. The product is also known by the names All and Omo.

Thus: All omo's...ha!

"It's a damn poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word!" -- Andrew Jackson

I was phonetically correct! Blasted spell checkers!

I have a spelling checker
It came with my PC
It plainly marks for my revue
Mistakes I cannot sea
I've run this poem threw it
I'm sure your please to no,
It's letter perfect in it's weigh
My checker tolled me sew
-- anonymous
Durex
written by Professor, April 18, 2007
(China ) thanks Joao for the reply
written by forrest allen brown, April 18, 2007
PHD
piled higher and deeper


just go to the west coast of panama
you hade better speak chinese
here in belize and down into houndras and into cost rica china is becoming a big factor in land and business .
they also have the military and goverment that will go out of its way to protect there intrest in other countries .

soon the cry will come not to save brazil from itself, but from someone else
To:ProfessorJoão bee-have!
written by João da Silva, April 18, 2007
Albert Einstein once said that if the bees disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left".
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070223-bees.html.

Thanks for the link sent. The article on CCD really connects with our line of thoughts.
To:Forrest Allen Brown/(China ) thanks Joao for the reply
written by João da Silva, April 18, 2007
they also have the military and goverment that will go out of its way to protect there intrest in other countries .

soon the cry will come not to save brazil from itself, but from someone else


Thank YOU for sharing your thoughts. Nothing better than hearing the opinion of an old sea farer that has sailed across various oceans and observed the realities of distant lands to enhance one´s knowledge.

The Middle Kingdom is running out of natural resources and over populous and "they also have the military and goverment that will go out of its way to protect there intrest in other countries". Put 2 and 2 together!
China
written by João da Silva, April 18, 2007
and we have to watch less of our Novelas and pay a little more attention to Geopolitics!
To:Professor
written by João da Silva, April 18, 2007
"It's a damn poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word!" -- Andrew Jackson


Labor=Labour; Harbor=Harbour; Arbor=Arbour; Neighbor=Neighbour..........

Should I go on and on to prove that I have a rich mind smilies/grin.gif
João
written by Professor, April 18, 2007
written by João da Silva, 2007-04-18 13:13:06

"It's a damn poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word!" -- Andrew Jackson

Labor=Labour; Harbor=Harbour; Arbor=Arbour; Neighbor=Neighbour..........
Should I go on and on to prove that I have a rich mind


As the Texans would say, you are a Fart Smeller, I mean Smart Feller! smilies/wink.gif
Run silent run deep
written by AES, April 18, 2007
The Chinese are an historically globally enterprising people. They have the sense to see opportunity and necessity. I dont really think they have any continued military aspirations. As the military ages, a twenty year old no longer has the interest of a 40 year old, there are matters of comfortability and 'normal' human evolution, family, children, education. A Sunday drive in the family sedan. But they are most assuredly interested in trans oceanic commerce, and that is done with Korean Hyundi and Joon's, genius, but all of this floats above the water, it is under the water that the business of policing global events in trans oceanic trade ultimately takes place. It is not the Chinese that are to be feared militarily, they believe in economic hegemony, economic chess. You better watch every dollar you spend in China because it represents a piece of property. We tend to sell the U.S. because the televisions are affordable, and gee dad the tennis shoes and clothes are a real bargain But China needs Brazil for at least food, and natural resources, ie iron. ore. Brazil can afford not to sell the Chinese, but the Chinese cannot afford to buy from Brazil. Brazil is in the 'cat bird seat'. It just needs to realize it. The Bovespa will break 50,000 because the world knows a deal when it sees one, even if the owner doesn't. Maybe that is the definition of a deal. Brazil is undervalued by itself.
the chinese cannot not afford to buy from Brazil
written by AES, April 18, 2007
cannot not afford . . .and with gold and silver so high it is time to revisit some of the old abandoned mines, and do a bit of looking around. At $275 gold may not be worth mining, but at $675 it is kind of like oil, $18 a barrel is one thing, but $70 a barrel their are other more expensive technologies, that make the enterprise, highly viable. Price being the mother of invention.
To:AES
written by João da Silva, April 18, 2007
Brazil is in the 'cat bird seat


AES, now you got me.Could you please explain this expression?
The Catbird Seat
written by AES, April 18, 2007
catbird seat
n.
A position of power or prominence
"The catbird seat" is an idiomatic phrase used to describe an enviable position, often one of great advantage.

The catbird is an Australian bird of the family Ptilonorhynchidae, known for the extraordinary lengths that the males will go to in order to build a bower to attract a mate. Some birds will assemble several hundred colored rocks or shells, arranging them in a remarkable and artistic display, in order to build the "seat" atop which his mate will eventually be enthroned.

"In the catbird seat" was among the numerous, folksy expressions with which the legendary baseball broadcaster Red Barber delighted listeners. Some say he invented the expression; others say that he dug it up from his Southern origins. However, it may in fact have originated elsewhere. In a 1942 humorous short story titled "The Catbird Seat," James Thurber[1] featured a character, Mrs. Barrows, who liked to use the phrase. Another character, Joey Hart, explained that Mrs. Barrows must have picked up the expression from Red Barber. To Red, according to Joey, "sitting in the catbird seat" meant "'sitting pretty,' like a batter with three balls and no strikes on him." According to Barber's daughter, however, it was only after Barber read Thurber's story that he started using the phrase "in the catbird seat" himself.


AES
written by Professor, April 18, 2007
They have the sense to see opportunity and necessity. I dont really think they have any continued military aspirations.

I agree in part with what you said, but ask yourself this; why did China recently shoot down an orbiting Satellite from space?
Eisenhowe would not extend the arms race into space. 1957
written by AES, April 18, 2007
Yeh pretty amazing. The U.S. has an anti ballistic laser weapon operated from a 747 that it makes ballistic missiles almost irrelevent. Besides I think China is more interested in building its economy through strategic economics, than military fear mongering.
The weapon of most concern are magnetic weaponry that eliminate all cyber infrastructure errasing all data with a massive magnetic discharge. Imagine if all of a countries computer systems were to go down, along with all electrical transmission, radio and television, simultaneously.
The Soviet Union launched Sputnik in October 1957. Although that beeping metal basketball enchanted the world, it alarmed the Pentagon. What would the Soviets do next — place weapons in space?

Generals and think-tank warriors urged President Dwight D. Eisenhower to beat the Russians to the punch by launching a space-weapons program. Eisenhower refused; he would not extend the arms race into space.

From then on, both the United States and the Soviet Union proclaimed that space should be dedicated to peaceful purposes. Nonetheless, both launched ever greater numbers of satellites useful to Earth-bound military analysts and combat commanders.

But neither nation ever deployed actual space weapons. Although space was thoroughly militarized, it remained a weapons-free sanctuary. That sanctuary notion was eventually embodied in the Outer Space Treaty of 1967, which the United States pushed for. Article I says, in part:

“The exploration and use of outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of all countries, irrespective of their degree of economic or scientific development, and shall be the province of all mankind.”

Although the exact meaning of those generous words has been debated for more than 30 years in international forums, space has remained a weapons-free sanctuary. But the very notion of space sanctuary is now in jeopardy.


Taiwan
written by Professor, April 18, 2007
Here is a link I forgot to include about the Chinese missile shooting down the satellite.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/s...topstories
I get the feeling China has not forgotten about Taiwan.
It would be of utmost strategic importance to diminish, if not eliminate low orbiting satellites
if a conflict was to occur. If one does not anticipate a conflict, then one need not need worry about shooting them down.
When shooting Satellites in space, the debris remains and becomes hazardous to other space vehicles. It is in the interest of all countries (not do this sh*t).

At this time there is no U.S. weapon sys. that can shield from these types of attacks.

More info here:

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003183.html
not another war
written by forrest allen brown, April 18, 2007
AT PRESENT there are so many GPS satellites some one would respond if they started going down

now a large ship off the watters of Tawian with a EMP cannon could stop all sorts of nastys comming at ships from china
TO:AES/Prof/Forrest
written by João da Silva, April 18, 2007
I agree in part with what you said, but ask yourself this; why did China recently shoot down an orbiting Satellite from space?


Additional facts questioning the Chinese being peaceful folks:

1) They invaded an unarmed Tibet which did not nor has natural resources in 1959. 2) They entered into armed conflicts with India and U.S.S.R in the early 1960s 3) They were involved in proxy wars in Africa in the 60s.

To:AES
written by João da Silva, April 18, 2007
At $275 gold may not be worth mining, but at $675 it is kind of like oil, $18 a barrel is one thing, but $70 a barrel
.

Ch.C wouldnt believe that oil was priced at $18 a barrel a long time ago!!
To:AES
written by João da Silva, April 18, 2007
I get the feeling China has not forgotten about Taiwan.
It would be of utmost strategic importance to diminish, if not eliminate low orbiting satellites
if a conflict was to occur. If one does not anticipate a conflict, then one need not need worry about shooting them down.
When shooting Satellites in space, the debris remains and becomes hazardous to other space vehicles. It is in the interest of all countries (not do this sh*t).


I have heard some Americans from S.W, using the phrase "A good Red is a de.d Red. But I still think that they have reasons. Why would the Chinese shoot a Satellite in space,unless they expect a conflict or initiate one?. BTW, they have not forgotten Taiwan.
KERU IR NA ISKOLA
written by KLAISSA, April 18, 2007
KERU IR NA ISKOLA. KERU FALÁ FEITU GENTI...NUM KURTO SÊ POBRI I IGUINORANTI smilies/sad.gif
China has morphed to its 21st Century neo capitalistic self, its 'raison d'etre'
written by AES, April 18, 2007
Tawain reminds me of Hong Kong. The Tawainese have invested billions in mainland Chinas economy. If the criteria is communism vs capitalism, then China is rapidly approaching parity if not superiority to Tawain. It may be that the time to move from the Straits of Taiwan has come, for all intents and purposes. Taiwan is of little military strategic value in this day of age to the U.S. and we should perhaps set it free, as the British did with Hong Kong. The Chinese are economically savy and would have no intention of desimating the economic engine of Taiwan. Nor did they in anyway affect the wealth of Hong Kong, though their was a mass exodus to Vancouver. I suspect the same thing would happen with Taiwan. I personally think it a waste of military resources, to defend that which no longer needs defense. What would Taiwan lose if it were to return to its motherland, what did Hong Kong lose? Well I suppose there is still Tienamin Square, but that is nearly twenty years ago and the Chinese are not going to sacrifice
economic prosperity for the vanity of military hegemony, since the purpose of military hegemony is economic prosperity.

BTW Prof: thanks for the heads up on the links.
To:AES
written by João da Silva, April 18, 2007
BTW Prof: thanks for the heads up on the links.


For an Arizonan, he is not a bad bloke. It must be due to his hard days in the inhospitable desert of Arizona,when he was a child.

smilies/grin.gif
To:Klaissa/KERU IR NA ISKOLA
written by João da Silva, April 18, 2007
Try Harrow.
Blokes and Yanks and stick lizards
written by Professor, April 18, 2007
For an Arizonan, he is not a bad bloke. It must be due to his hard days in the inhospitable desert of Arizona, when he was a child.

In Arizona when we had visitors from the East Coast and it was their first time in the hot Arizonan sun we would tell them to be on the look out for the rare Stick-Lizards who quickly run on the hot dessert ground to a place cool and with shade.
Explaining further we told them that the reason they are called stick lizards is because the ground in so damn hot they carry a stick with them and at intervals, stop and put the stick in the ground, then climb up the stick to cool their burning feet.
Normally after this story is told the person has a look of disbelief and amazement, but if the person telling the story stays serious the person ends up excepting this rare phenomena.

After staying under the hot Arizonan sun one begins to see things others have only imagined!
smilies/grin.gif
To: Professor
written by João da Silva, April 18, 2007
In Arizona when we had visitors from the East Coast


Ah,ah Prof. Another yarn from ya. Did you give correct directions to your East Coast visitors to get to Larry Do?
João do
written by Professor, April 18, 2007
Did you give correct directions to your East Coast visitors to get to Larry Do?


Sh*t fire and save matches! Larry do? Now you got me stumped! What the hell is that?

Really I might know what you are talking about, but because every time I learn one new thing
I forget two old things, Dagnabbit!

AES
written by Professor, April 19, 2007
[quoteI personally think it a waste of military resources, to defend that which no longer needs defense.]
The support of Democracy in Taiwan is worth defending, if you are going to defend Democracy.

"the potential for confrontation with the United States over Taiwan ensures that America remains an enemy (at least from the perspective of the military). "
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=3360

"China is uneasy about Taiwan's democracy, Lee said, simply because such democratic achievements serve as an example for the Chinese people and even the entire Asia-Pacific region. Such achievements represent the hopes and future of democratization in the region, he added."

"He said that Taiwan is fighting for peace and stability in the face of China's military threat. For the continuance of Taiwan's democracy, the US has to stand up in East Asia in order to uphold human rights and democracy, he said."
http://www.taipeitimes.com/New...2003275880

I guess when it comes down to it Taiwan can remain as it is, however its democracy does not reflect China itself, the b*astard child is embarrassing the father under the protection of the step-father (U.S.A.). This embarrassment can be tolerated for the good of China, however the Chinese military "2.3 million People's Liberation Army officers, civilian personnel, soldiers and army retirees" do not agree.

Indicators indicate that the Military has been better preparing for a war that could happen in 2007/2008, since they were ill prepared in 2005.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/specialreport/20050626-122138-1088r_page2.htm


There seems to be no end to current news on this subject, is it paranoia or reality?
Current links:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/f...18.article
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sect...d=10434881
http://www.thedailyobserver.ca...&classif=


http://www.resourceinvestor.co...elid=30990
Prof: Taiwanese investment in mainland China
written by aes, April 19, 2007
Taiwan cares less about what you call it rather than the profit margin that exists and promises to exist in the future. To have two counteries austensibly on the verge of war with the U.S. pledged to this defense of non sense, or profit and loss engaged in profound economic exchanges is at best curious and and worst manipulative of the good graces of the United States.
Why should the U.S. defend the economic development of Taiwan merely as a question of semantics. Taiwan will still be Taiwan no matter what you call it, if it were truly fearful of mainland China it would not be investing billions of dollars that benefit its austensive enemy. It is rubbish and the U.S. is being played the fool, what do we gain by this game, hegemony. Hell if the U.S. put tarrifs on everything made in China it would implode the country. Certainly the middle class of China, the up and coming governing class, do not wish to jeopardize their economic futures on the definition of Taiwan. Nor does Taiwan fear China else a priori it would not be investing billions of dollars in its enemy.

The Bureau of Foreign Trade reported that from January to August 2006, bilateral trade between Taiwan and China reached US$56.42 billion, accounting for 20.2% of Taiwan’s total foreign trade, a 16.3% growth compared with the same period last year. Of this, Taiwan’s exports to China increased 13.9% to reach US$40.49 billion, comprising 27.9% of its total exports, while Taiwan’s imports from China rose 22.9% to US$15.94 billion, accounting for 11.9% of its total imports. The above contributed to a trade surplus of US$24.55 billion, an increase of 8.7% over the same period last year. Meanwhile, Taiwan’s exports and imports reached US$5.51 and US$2.31 billion respectively in August 2006
To:Professor/Larry Do
written by João da Silva, April 19, 2007
Now you got me stumped!


You must have played Cricket, while living in England.

According to my late Texan friend, New Yorkers visitng Texas used to pronounce Laredo as "Larry Do". Of course, he was a great story teller too!
João do Guinness?
written by Professor, April 19, 2007
You must have played Cricket, while living in England.

According to my late Texan friend, New Yorkers visitng Texas used to pronounce Laredo as "Larry Do". Of course, he was a great story teller too!

Pa always said, son do not play with your Cricket you will go blind! So I wear glasses now! smilies/cool.gif
I missed the Larry do one, never been to Larry Do too! But the story does ring a bell!
I am of Irish decent, however from my Maw's side I descended from them damn Texans!

Two Irishmen, Patrick & Michael, were adrift in a lifeboat
following a
dramatic escape from a burning freighter. While rummaging through
the
boat's' provisions, Patrick stumbled across an old lamp. Secretly
hoping
that a genie would appear, he rubbed the lamp vigorously. To the
amazement
of Patrick, a genie came forth. This particular genie, however,
stated that
he could only deliver one wish, not the standard three. Without
giving much
thought to the matter, Patrick blurted out,