Brazzil

Why don't you write an article about the American pilots that were held and unjustly accused? I am sorry, but no matter how you spin it, it is the Brazilian ATC that ultimatly caused the death of hundreds of your citizens and now you say they are "unjustly accused". Why were you ready to charge the American pilots with manslaughter and now make excuses for the controllers that were at fault. I can guarentee one thing, if this had happened in the US, the controllers lose their asses. In the case of the alternative fuels, I agree we the author. Brazil has lead the world in clean buring fuel technology and should indeed benefit by exporting these materials to a fuel starved globe. Here in the US, large oil is riducluled because Brazil is so far ahead, I love to hear it each and every time.

The American pilots had to stay in Brazil until the international investigation was finished because there’s NO EXTRADITION agreement between the US and Brazil... and that is that!!! If you think intelligently, that is why they stayed in a five star hotel and not in a prison. Does that help to turn your light on?

Everyone likes to play the blame game especially around the time of tragedy. Yes, Brasil is suffering from an unspeakable tragedy in this case. In Los Angeles, in 1991, an air traffic controller cleared a US Air jet to land on top of a commuter jet. Many (I believe 37) were killed and the controller to this day feels terible. Yes, she lost her job, yes, it was her fault, but did she want it to happen? Of course not. So instead of blaming the air traffic controllers or the American pilots or the plane manufacturers, let them investigate this accident completely and in the meantime, the public is going to have to realize it was just that, an accident. On the Concorde, did the Continental jet mean to have a piece fall off? Did the Concorde's tire manufacturer mean to have over inflated tires, did the plane's designers anticipate this tragedy, again, of course not. Another accident that we can ALL learn from and pray they are never repeated because then, they are not accidents!

And yes, although I am against the detainment of anyone during an inquiry (whether it was a 5-star hotel or a jail), due to the lack of extradition, if criminality is to be blamed on the American pilots later, the United States would never allow them to be sent back....

Quote from a report to Congress, available on Google .. " Brazil cooperates with the United States in the extradition of non-Brazilians. The Brazilian constitution, however, prohibits the extradition of nationals. Moreover, the U.S.-Brazil extradition treaty, was signed in 1961 and entered into force in 1964"

After seeing this article in English, and having majored in journalism in college, I begin to understand why even after almost 40 years in Brazil it is so hard for me to read some of the op-ed pieces or even news stories in Portuguese. No inverted pyramid, no clue as to what is being discussed, no logic, it´s like someone who has three jobs to keep the middle class lifestyle going finally gets out of traffic, finds a parking place, escapes being assaulted on the street, gets inside and just starts writing something to meet a deadline. So quit welcoming people´s comments and take a vacation. Or at least a cold shower.

Control-tower error possible in Brazil crash



The flight-recorder transcript from the executive jet involved in Brazil's worst air disaster shows its American pilots were told by air traffic control to fly at the same altitude as a Boeing 737 before the planes collided over the Amazon rainforest, a newspaper reported Thursday.



Pilot Joseph Lepore was told by the tower in São José dos Campos to maintain an altitude of 37,000 feet as he flew the jet beyond Brasília on a northwest path to Manaus, the Folha de S. Paulo quoted the transcript as saying. That altitude contradicted the pilots' filed flight plan as well as established norms, which reserve odd-numbered altitudes for southbound flights.


From the AP

....and others government officials clearly accused the US pilots as guilty......even before the end of the investigations !
And Pires said recently Brazil has not to take the blame alone !

Very strange attitute from Amorim, the Foreign Relations Ministrer !!!!!!
And Pires, the Defense Minister....continues to blame the US pilots !!!

If that is not Arrogance and Xenophobia from Brazilians, what is it ?
Brazilian (IN)Justice...as usual ?

And if the US pilots would have been found guilty, they coould have faced 20 years in prison for Involuntary Manslaughter.
Therefore why the Brazilians ATC should not face the same judgement if found guilty ?

Double speed Brazilian Justice Or Traditional Brazilian (IN)JUSTICE as usual ?

Simple !

the brasilian plane is built of 98 % imported products. by the way

it will be found that the smaller plane cut a path into the skin of the 737 -800 whitch caused a air flow into the wing whitch blew the wing apart ( not unlike the space shuttel did ) at whitch time the flight crew was trying to pull away from the hit placing more stress on the wing and it broke off then the flat spin and a nose over down fall.
A SERIES OF UNFORTUNATE EVENTS
ask your selves
why did not the ATC see this ,
why did not the 737 flight crew see the other plane ,
why did not the flight crew of the leagcy see the other plane .
why did not the air warnning system work on the ground and in the planes.
why has the A T G tapes been made public
why has the flight recoders from booth planse not been maid public
why does the press not print the hole storie in brasil & in the us

THE SIMPLE ANSWER TO ALL OF THIES IS WE ARNT GIVEN ALL THE INFO
now you have people linging up to make money of the dead
trying to build a political career on the dead

we all will defend the dead by placing blame on the other country place the blame where it belongs .
only when we find out where it goes .
name calling wont do a thing but cause more name calling and fighting

so grow some balls and live with it till the truth comes out

But I dooo!

So here is a question for all of you especially for “ ch c.” What will happen when the American hungry lawyers dissect the American pilots inside the US courts to find " beyond the reasonable doubt" that the American pilots are guilty of negligence or wrongful death, to the value of millions of dollars??? Hugh??? Would that make it OK then because it would be American layers in American court against American pilots??? Because YOU KNOW this is exactly what is going to happen!!! To be perfectly honest, I think Brazil handle this incident quite well. Media circus is unavoidable and everywhere in the world...information leaks is part of the process and the absence of extradition treaty exacerbated the situation. To the commentator that said that there is extradition agreement between US and Brazil I would suggest to read as a reference the case of the 5 brave fireman that died after an arsonist set his own building on fire and called the fire department to come and get him out. The story made the national news in the US when it was found that he was legally instructed to escape to Brazil because of the lack of extradition agreement between the two countries, but fortunately stopped at the airport.

... if you do something stupid, it's your own damn fault (no lawyers required).

There is no spoon, there is no ultimate truth.
Maybe it's nobody's fault. But it is everybody's fault.
The controller in São José who said they could fly in that altitude until Manaus.
The pilots because they didn't double check orders that were against the flight plan.
The controller in Brasilia who gave the Legacy permission to remain at 37 000 ft, not knowing what the controller in São José had said, and believing that the Legacy would change altitude according to the flight plan.
Was it instrument fault that the Legacy didn't hear the repeated calls from the cindacta in Brasilia, or was the radio switched off or the volume down? After all they did manage to make contact just before they crash landed.
The black boxes were sent to be analised in Canadá, hopefully a neutral agent.
The Legacy black box reveals that the transponder was not working at the time of the accident, but did not reveal if it was malfunction or if had been switched off.

The Gol pilot was on his planned route, and a routine flight. He had was not informed that there was a plane in the same route with the transponder off, that Brasilia could not reach.
The Legacy can fly at the speed of 450 knots
The Boing could fly at .8 Mach, approximatelly 761.2 mph
So their relative speed can be as high as 1211 mph.
When or if the pilots of any of the aircrafts saw it other there was no time for reaction.
If there were clouds, as there is often over the rainforest, they could not see each other - that is why all aircraft are equiped with radars and transponders and radios.
If there were absolutely no clouds absolute ideal conditions, the planes could be visible to each other at 40 km - lets say 20 miles - at 1211 miles per hour, that would give the pilots less than one minute to react.
However the planes are mainly white, so if there is cloud, haze, glare, the planes would not be visible to each other until much less, therefore the reaction time is even smaller.
They should have been visible to each other in the radar long before that. It would come to no surprise to each other to see a blimp in the radar, as both planes were expected to be there. But as the transponder of the Legacy was not working, the Boing had no way to know the altitude it was coming.
We still don't know if the pilot of the Boing tried to contact the Legacy, but why should he? He was following his flight plan, on the stablished route and altitude. Even if he saw the Legacy, he would just assume that it was flying at the stablished altitude for that route.
The air controlers in Brasil are overworked and understaffed.
Despite this the number of accidents in Brasilian space is relatively low, and this is the first time in recorded history that they are blamed for an accident.
The control tower from Brasilia did all it could to contact the Legacy after it flew past Brasilia, when they noticed that they didn't change altitude and that the transponder was off, but there was no response until the Legacy was issuing his mayday and about to crash land.
There is a gap in radiocommunications over Serra do Cachimbo, where the accident happened. Because of the distance, and the relieve of the region, depending on atmospheric conditions planes can be without radio communication when they fly from the radio reach of Brasilia and before they get within radio reach of Manaus.
Because of that the controlers had requested that an auxiliary control center should be build in that region to give better radio coverage in the region, but the budget for that project was never approved.
Where is the information that should have been provided by the project SIVAM? Millions have been spent in the establishment of this extensive surveillance sistem. It's supposed to monitor all air trafic to curb illigal trafic of drugs and deforestation, it should have picked up the Legacy, and it should be working since 2005, or at least since April 2006 both dates from the official site.
So it is not possible to blame any single person or institution.
A whole lot of little things led to this catastrophe.
Considering the usual rate of Brasilian justice, I would say that the investigations are going at breakneck speed and unprecedent efficiency.
The poor controlers in Brasilia and the pilots in Rio have to deal now not only with the responsability for the accident but also with the blame assigned to them.
It is well know that all crooks flee to Brasil because of the lack extradition laws.
Biggs, from the famous train robber from England, lived in relative confort in Rio, although everybody knew where he was and that he was guilty of the robbery. He even became a public figure, and his son became a singer.
So I do understand the reluctance of the Brasilian authorities to let the american pilots leave the country, during the investigations. They not only are staying at a 5 star hotel, they are not confined to the hotel and are free to walk around the city - they cannot leave the country, but are not in home arrest. That they have decided that it is safer for them not to leave the hotel is another matter.
So it's everybody's fault.
But does it really matters now?

Hey Druna, I would like to ask how did you come to your conclusions on the the relative speeds of each aircraft. I happen to know for a fact that Mach .80 at 37,000 feet is 528 mph. I would also like to point out that 761.2 mph is Mach 1.152 at 37,000 feet. the speed of sound at 37,000 feet is 660 mph. Take it from me Druna that a Boeing 737-800 or any Boeing commerical airplane CAN NOT reach the speed of sound at any level in any ISA or IMC condidtion. The equation to accurately determine Mach numbers is the following. Mach Ratio = object speed ^ speed of sound. I do not want to get into equations and algorithms, but Druna your numbers are a bit off to say the least, and if given proper instructions by ATC there was more than enough time to avert this accident.

YOU NOT ONLY MISSED THE EXELENT POINT OF DRUNA, BASED ON THE REALITY OF THE EVENT...ONE CAN ONLY CONCLUDE THAT YOU ARE WRONG!!! OTHERWISE IT WOULD NOT HAVE HAD OCURRED?

Thanks for the support Jony

KMIA, In response to your query.
I got the figures from the Wikipedia. There the top speed of the Boing is listed as Mach .8, wich I understand is a relative measure. I used the formulas in the Wikipedia to calculate the speed in MPH, and I admit it could be wrong.
The speed of each plane is measured relative to the ground.
Bur as each plane is moving in the same line in oposite directions, their SPEED RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER is the sum of both speeds.

Even if I use your figure of 528 mph for the Boing, their relative speed would still be 978, in relation to each other.
The reaction time then would be 1.2 minutes, IF the visibility was perfect, with no clouds or haze.

Yes, if the pilots of the Legacy had heard the Flight controlers who were calling them from Brasilia for half an hour, maybe the accident could be avoided, but they did not have any radio contact until AFTER the crash.
Yes the pilots of the Boing could have been warned to be on the lookout for a plane that was out of radio contact and with the transponder off, but they were not, so the accident happened.

"The reaction time then would be 1.2 minutes, IF the visibility was perfect, with no clouds or haze." should read:

"The reaction time then would be 1.2 minutes, IF the visibility was perfect, with no clouds or haze, and the pilots of both aircraft were awake (not sleeping) and were in their positions on the flight deck."

Jony I have this to say to you You never know if a person is stupid until they open their mouth and say something stupid. Jony your stupidy is only compounded by your ignorance. By the way the this is the correct spelling of exelent is ... E X C E L L E N T. Other than your misspelling of the word excellent , you wrote an excellent post you moron.

So the brazilian keyboard commando accident investigators here on brazzil.com are still here trying to spin and rationalize all this filth, incompetence and corruption that Brazil is proudly displaying.
They appear to wear this like a badge of honor.

Meanwhile the pilots are STILL being held against their will (YES, against their will, I DON'T CARE how you try to excuse it) after a braz judge recently refused a petition to return their passports. Oh, the infamy continues!
Despite many indications to the contrary, pilots are STILL the ones presumed guilty and being held while the government does its best to stall and cover-up and the media keeps up its campaign to demonize the foreigners. Typical of a nation where so many of its citizens are paranoid and xenophobic.
Merda!
WHERE ARE THE ATC PEOPLE?
WHERE ARE THE TRANSCRIPTS?
FLIGHT DATA RECORDERS?
HOW ABOUT SOME TRUTH AND HONESTY?

I guess you miss the point again... I would have taken your comment seriously if you didn't have so many grammatical errors in such a short paragraph. You did get the word EXELLENT right however here is what you got wrong!
a. You forgot a period to end your sentence after the first (you)
b. You repeated the same adjective twice in the sentence; you should have used a synonymous word to better describe your thought.
c. You misspell the word "stupidity" (Out of all words!!!)
d. Your sentence didn't make sense with the additional word (the this).

“Jony I have this to say to (you You) never know if a person is (stupid) until they open their mouth and say something (stupid). Jony your (stupidy) is only compounded by your ignorance. By the way (the this) is the correct spelling of exelent is ... E X C E L L E N T. Other than your misspelling of the word excellent , you wrote an excellent post you moron.”


So if I had to grade you, unfortunately I would have to put you somewhere in Seventh Grade... I'm sorry “738 driver out KMIA”.

e. You have too many verbs in the wrong location. "(is) the correct spelling of excelent (is)...EXCELLENT."

Jony you are stupid. Spell check this sentence. This sentence is straightforward and to the point.

Portugese puts verbs in completely different places than English. Its a hard language. Jony don't judge what you don't understand. English is alot easier. You are always going to see a Brazlian speaking English do this because thay are structuring an English sentance with Porteguse logic. Deal with it. You would structure your verbs in the wrong place too if you spoke Porteguese because your logic would be English.

Carissimo Canastrao Blond, Intendo perfeitamente a sua explicacao sobre a lingua Portuguesa e concordo plenamente com o teu ponto de vista.Todavia posso julga a complexibilidade da nossa lingua amada em referencia a inglesa assim com voce tao bem a conhece. A minha reacao talvez um tanto forte) contra o Driver foi pela maneira com que ele me respondeu, entende? De qualquer forma aceite um forte abraco de paz. Jony.

It is a shame that the two american pilots are still detained here in Brazil. Our flight control system is in chaos. An overworked and ill-prepared group of people are being forced to stay alert, jeopardizing air safety, to finish the delays that were caused since the controlers started to follow the rules.
Meanwhile, Waldir Pires is caught everyday with his pants down. He said that he was unaware of problems with ATC system in Brazil. His predecessor's team produced a report back in 2003 saying that in the near future the system would colapse due to the lack of people and equipment. The report felt in deaf years. He was put by Lula as defense minister just as a "provocation" to the military. Waldyr Pires was a supporter of Pres. Joao Goulart deposed in 1964 by a military coup d'Etat. Waldir Pires still lives in the early 60s. He still believes that "Cuba offers a hope to Latin Americans". He was a shame as State Governor in Bahia, as minister under Pres. Sarney and now. Why Waldir Pires is still minister?

Should have directed my comment to Driver... Oops.