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There's a Cure for Brazil's Slums. It's Called Napalm PDF Print E-mail
Written by Janer Cristaldo   
Sunday, 28 October 2007 19:33

Favela in a Rio hill The Lefts are amusing. They've always stood up for banditism, claiming that criminality is a product of poverty. When governor Sérgio Cabral Filho, from Rio de Janeiro, supports abortion as a method to reduce violence in the State and says that Rocinha favela (slum), in Rio's south side, is a "bad guy producing factory" it's a pretty kettle of fish.

Cabral based himself in the book Freakonomics by Americans Steven Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner, who associate abortion legalization in the United States to a reduction in criminality in poor areas, although they stress that such an association raises an ethical debate.

According to the daily newspaper O Estado de S. Paulo, non-governmental entities and slum residents accused the governor of criminalizing poverty and distorting the pro-abortion movement discourse, which supports suspending pregnancy as a woman's right of having autonomy over her own body, and not as way of fighting violence.

"With these statements the government makes it clear that it supports the criminalization of poverty. Since the State has no policy to integrate the poor, they rather shouldn't be born. The policy is one of extermination," said Camilla Ribeiro, of the Global Justice NGO.

"For the wealthier the State acts as a protector, for the poorer as a predator. In order to justify itself it paints the slum dweller as the other, from where all the evil emanates," said teacher Rodrigo Torquato da Silva, who has been living in Rocinha for the last 36 years.

According to Adriana Gragnani, of University of São Paulo's (USP) Nucleus of Woman and Gender Relations Studies, Cabral based himself in old-fashioned ideas, from the 60s. "This premise of reducing the number of poor to fight violence, be it by abortion or contraceptive, is an old one. In reality you decrease poverty by boosting the population's standard of living."

Now, let's get to the facts. Far from me supporting the Lefts' vision that criminality is a factor deriving exclusively from misery. Criminals, we have them in all social classes, the same as with honest people to whom never occurred to commit crimes in order to enjoy a better life.

But it's obvious that favelas are factories of criminals. They manufacture bad guys to a such degree that not even the police manage to get inside the hills where they live unless they get substantial manpower and heavy weaponry. For ages the Brazilian slums have become true Bantustans, where black populations for the most part are confined, in general at the service of drug trafficking or at least as a protection wall for drug dealers.

Bantustans were pseudo-states devised by the apartheid regime in South Africa, in order to keep blacks off the whites neighborhoods and lands, but close enough so that they might be used as cheap labor. In Brazil, this inactive labor was appropriated by the drug trafficking.

Are the high classes the biggest responsible for drug consumption? No doubt. But who supplies them is the favela. It's also obvious that misery and frenetic prolificity favors criminality. If a family can provide for a child but instead has seven or eight kids it's obvious that most if not all will go to the streets school. At this school one doesn't learn exactly etiquette and good manners.

Then we have television as a catalytic element of violence. The little screen is within reach of any criminal and illiterate person and it shows, without any reserve, a dream world, technological wonders, luxurious environments and sensual women.

What's left to the poor devil who roams the streets but resentment? Drug trafficking is a way out within reach of his hand. It pays better than the job of many liberal professionals and doesn't require that many qualifications. Obviously the slum is a delinquents' factory.

For a long time now I've been championing the idea that the luxury and ostentation shown on television constitute one of the main causes of violence in Brazil. The little screen promises paradise and the poor devil lives in hell. "I want that too," the poor devil will say. It happens that he doesn't have the money to buy. He then kills and steals.

What should we do? Should we censor TV? Absolutely not. What's needed - something that in my opinion will never occur in Brazil - is to get rid of the country's misery. I don't say poverty but misery. I'm not adept at defending social equality.

The revolutionaries of 89 did not consult me - and haven't consulted the French either - when they brandished as their flag Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. Freedom and fraternity, it's OK. On the other hand equality is another story. Poor and rich will always exist in all countries of the world.

What we cannot accept are men and women, elders and children, thrown to the rough streets, living in more than precarious conditions and eating badly without satisfying their hunger. People who take refuge in their sleep and who make an effort to keep on sleeping despite the traffic noise. Because to get up means to have to tackle reality.

There is a public opinion sector that doesn't like to hear the truth. One day before Cabral's statements, Rio's Security Secretary, José Beltrame, said that "a shot in Copacabana is one thing and one in Coréia favela is something else." It was another pretty kettle of fish. But it's obvious that a shot in Copacabana is something quite different from a shot in the favela.

Just as the massacre of ten thousand people in Darfur is one thing and the death of an Israeli officer is another. As a subway accident with two or three wounded people in Berlin or Paris is a thing and a tragedy with a bus or train that kills hundreds of people in India or in Pakistan is another.

To the West, it's indifferent that hundreds or thousands of people die in Africa or in the East. Yet the death of an Israeli soldier or a small subway accident in Europe will touch us.

It's easy to any reader to admit the last two propositions. What's hard it to accept the first one. It's too close to us and it reveals the idea that there is no equal treatment to those who live in the favela and those who live in Copacabana.

Now, it's obvious that there isn't. Just for starters, on Copacabana's corners there isn't - for now anyway - drug dealers entrenched with high-caliber war weapons lying in wait for the policemen. The day this happens - and this day might not be far - a shot in Copacabana will be as banal as a shot in the favela. Today's random shots are already preparing the terrain for future days.

In fact, abortion is not the solution. Abortion is just a patch. Solution would be family planning, misery reduction. But it's also hard to admit that families of privileged classes have access to safe abortion, while the poor are exposed to the butchers fury.

Catholics are blind and deaf to this disparity, they prefer to see women dying or in jail instead of having the right to  a peaceful abortion and they obviously are shocked when someone stands up brandishing the obvious in public.

Meanwhile violence and poverty are part and parcel of being Brazilian. A birth rate reduction might even reduce drug trafficking. But it will never get rid of it. The drug trafficker moves around the favela hill as a fish in water.

If some governor wants to get rid of drug trafficking in the slums for good, the way I see it, there is only one solution: napalm.

Janer Cristaldo - he holds a Ph.D. from University of Paris, Sorbonne - is an author, translator, lawyer, philosopher and journalist and lives in São Paulo. His e-mail address is This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .

Translated from the Portuguese by Arlindo Silva.

Comments (210)Add Comment
...
written by aes, October 28, 2007
If some governor wants to get rid of drug trafficking in the slums for good legalize it and tax it. It is ludicrous for the state to interfere with an individuals desire to hurt himself. Other than the user, it is a victimless crime. The cost to the state is beyond calculation. Decriminalize it. People will chose to use these substances weather they are legal or not. Decriminalization takes away the illegal profit. Sell it and tax it as cigarettes; certainly tobacco kills more people and is more addicting then any illegal drug. The state creates a climate of gangsterism and dispair in an aborted attempt to benefit the citizenry. First decriminalize drugs and then massively educate. The result would be an end to the culture of drug gangsterism. The levels of addiction would remain constant, but the quality of life for the citizens of Brazil would be greatly improved. The money spent for enforcement and incarceration would find greater utility in health and education. It is the illegality that is the greatest cancer not the drug.
...
written by David Mendoza, October 29, 2007
As a foreigner, what I observe is the basic unfairness of Brazilian society. There are few opportunities for social mobility. If the author of the article had been born in a favela then probably he would not have passed his Vestibular, let alone got to study at the Sorbonne.

Very clearly the problem is lack of opportunity rather than lack of ability. If the people who efficiently manage the drug trade and Rio Carnival blocos were put in charge of the air traffic control system, then it may even work!

It’s almost like you have a caste system with a strangulating bureaucracy to keep everyone in their place.
...
written by conceicao, October 29, 2007
While I am adamantly opposed to abortion on moral grounds, I do not dismiss the analysis offered in Freakonomics as wrong. I do agree with aes that legalizing drugs could be an
effective means of defusing drug-related violence emanating from the Rio favelas. Finally, I wish the author had discussed possible beneficial effects from regularizing the titles to
slum dwellers homes as opposed to just bulldozing them. In any case, the positive economic and image effects to Brasil from a clean, safe Rio would be enormous.
It's not true, it's exactly the other way around.
written by Mario Silvio, October 29, 2007
" There are few opportunities for social mobility."
Despite the leftists stating it at every oportunity they have this is a completly false statement. Nothing could be more unfair to the brazilian society than saying: There are few opportunities for social mobility.
Brazil is problably among the 5/6 countries in the world where it's easier to climb the social scale and it's very simple to prove it.
There are hundreds of thousands of imigrant's sons who went to college and many of them are millionaires nowadays.
I'd like to ask David Mendoza (and whoever feel like answering it) a couple of questions I'd asked many times before without ever getting an answer:
How do you explain so many people not knowing the local language,with no social relationship, with not a clue about local culture and habits were (and still are!) able to succeed?
Who do you think has a better start, one who just arrived at a strange place or someone who was born there?
The main problem with the left is they don't care about facts. Reality is just a mith for them.
"the criminalization of poverty"
written by ch.c., October 29, 2007
but....but...but that is what your deaths squads, mostly police men NOT in uniforms, are doing, by killing thousands of poor children !
Dont they ?

As to the napalm bombs in the favelas, a better idea would be to put these bombs in your Planalto and Senate !
Are they not the ones "supposed" to protect your society ?
Lets face it, they failed and they are still failing.....miserably !

As to the statement " Criminals, we have them in all social classes," I would add to ...all countries.
The question is by how much more...or less....compared with other countries.
The stats are quite clear and just mentioned today in another article in this same site :
UK has a crime rate of 1 per 100'000 capita, USA 6 and Brazil 27 !!!!!
(which by the way is a bad interpretation of the real published stat that says that ASSUMING.....1......AS THE BASE....is given to UK, the USA would get 6 and Brazil 27)

Knowing also that Brazil is in the bottom 10 world ranking for the social and wealth distribution,
the easiest way to reduce crime rate is to reduce the wealth inequality.
Because if you dont redistribute more equally, the poors will take...anyway...one way or the other, and wether you like it or not.
What do they have to lose ????? Very little.....except their own death, but when dead they dont suffer anymore by definition.
And killing them is of no value either, others will replace them as long as you dont redistribute the country wealth more equally.
Mario Silvio
written by João da Silva, October 30, 2007
The main problem with the left is they don't care about facts. Reality is just a mith for them.


You have a point there. I am glad that you brought this up.In reality, the left is promoting DOWNWARD mobility.
Ch.c
written by João da Silva, October 30, 2007
As to the napalm bombs in the favelas, a better idea would be to put these bombs in your Planalto and Senate !


Your suggestion is a bit radical butworth being analysed. However, is there any other alternative to these Napalm bombs ?

Come out with alternative suggestions to keep the cost low smilies/grin.gif
Janer Cristaldo
written by Shelly, October 30, 2007
What you are saying here, I have been saying for the past 5 months since I joined this blog. I am from Rio and can speak about the realities that our governador tries to ignore. He is being a sexist, son of a hoot, so the problems begins with who? Us women. He is clearly blaming the women in the favela, how about if we castrate all man? I think if they did it, then it would be fair. Having you seen the latest on Globo about "women on the raise in favelas" , they are participating on some equal terms on drug deal decisions, take guns around the town, kill with no mercy? I saw the video with this girl, she was breast feeding a little innocent baby, he was 2 1/2 years old. Innocent child that is learning how to be a coppa killer, in two more, he could do some damage. This is the reality of Rio.I have heard from police offices, high rank that they know how to end this, when I read the word napalm bombs, I though it had already happened. I have heard of ebola, and other diseases. Kind of horrible thing to be wasting my time with. I am for the legalization of abortion, but not on these grounds, because it defeats the real purpose. But then again, this is Brazil, they will get a issue and twist it, give a brazuca flair voila, we have a new creation.
...
written by Shelly, October 30, 2007
My friends here the link to the story. You have to feel for this little baby. http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/
go to videos, there is one clip with a girl holding a gun with tight shorts, listen carefully to why she decided to go along on this path. The solution to our problems is given in this interview and nobody has moved. Its sacrilege !
You are right João
written by Mario Silvio, October 30, 2007
"the left is promoting DOWNWARD mobility."

That's what they are good on doing, but not for them of course. As soon as they take the power they start getting richer and richer.
Reinstate the death penalty
written by Yowser, October 30, 2007
Napalm no, but reinstating the death penalty would be one of many solutions in dealing with crime emanating from the favellas. Some of the most advanced (and advancing nations) in the world utilize the death penalty to control crime:
USA, Japan, Singapore, China.
To all those bleeding heart liberals who oppose the death penalty consider the following:
~ We are all going to die. Those who kill just get to go first.
~ Killing an unborn human baby is hideous yet liberals gladly embrace it
~ Killing (executing) a murderer is self defense for society

Brazil should reinstate the death penalty.
Mario Silvio
written by João da Silva, October 30, 2007
That's what they are good on doing, but not for them of course. As soon as they take the power they start getting richer and richer.


Mario, years ago, we had an honorable middle class, that used to care for the poor. Now, the middle class people like us are being squeezed out.Shelly makes lot of sense when she talks about the plight of her dad and his (our) struggle to maintain our dignity and honor in spite of the bulls**t transmitted by the leftist looneys. Man, it is becoming more and more difficult to talk to "analfabetos" these days. They are the power,my friend. What difference does it make if you have education or not.For that matter, it is better to be uneducated (or pseudo educated) and wait for "Bolsa Familia"
Americans should be the last ones to talk about legalizing drugs
written by A Brazilian, October 30, 2007
I do agree with aes that legalizing drugs could be an effective means of defusing drug-related violence emanating from the Rio favelas.


It will be the fastest way to create a land of drug addicts and useless people constantly numbed down by the effects of narcotics. Why don't the US do it first? Why to experiment with Brazil's population?
...
written by David Mendoza, October 30, 2007
"I'd like to ask David Mendoza (and whoever feel like answering it) a couple of questions I'd asked many times before without ever getting an answer:
How do you explain so many people not knowing the local language,with no social relationship, with not a clue about local culture and habits were (and still are!) able to succeed?
Who do you think has a better start, one who just arrived at a strange place or someone who was born there?
The main problem with the left is they don't care about facts. Reality is just a mith (sic) for them."

I am a leftist?!! That's funny.

Motivated immigrants are going to succeed anywhere: in the UK, in the USA, and even in Brazil. That is a different issue from social mobility of the established population.

I remain horrified that so many well-educated, civilised (usually white) Brazilians seek to blame the (often non-white) poor for their condition. Maybe rather than seeking to exterminate the poor you would be better off allowing them to escape from poverty. Generally, people with prospects tend not to become drug addicts or career criminals.
...
written by aes, October 30, 2007
". . .claiming that criminality is a product of poverty." You dont have to be poor to be a criminal.
IT IS TIME BRASIL HAD A WOMAN PRESIDENT
written by forrrest allen brown, October 30, 2007
not that crazy commie that ran last time eather
go back shelly and start woman power like silia maria caldron did in
porto rico in 2000 she was nothing but a woman with a simi rich husban and an idea if she could get women on her platform
by feed the poor kids
send the poor kids to school
raise the welfare rate per child
slow the drug gangs by cutting there time in jail if they were turned in by there fanily
paying kids for info on there or where the drugs were

won by a land slide
and now with 2 women in power in the south
about time

sha also went after croupt police and politicans , judges by paying there secetaries
a reward for helping
do it i will come down and help you
also a am a very good shot with a machine pistol and a hand gun
love the long guns though
...
written by A brazilian, October 30, 2007
I remain horrified that so many well-educated, civilised (usually white) Brazilians seek to blame the (often non-white) poor for their condition. Maybe rather than seeking to exterminate the poor you would be better off allowing them to escape from poverty. Generally, people with prospects tend not to become drug addicts or career criminals.


Europeans have become such pussies. I actually admire the US because they have the balls to do what is needed to be done, Europeans are all about politically correctness and all that crap. You will all be bowing towards Meca pretty soon anyway.

The problem in Brazil is the very low moral standards. The poor doesn't succeed because they don't think they can make anything and any effort would be for nothing. Immigrants usually move to another country to try a new life and that motivates them, and that shows that is possible to succeed in Brazil. The other guy actually have a point.

The lebanese immigrants that recently arrived in 10 years will be middle class and upper middle class, and after that some of them will be rich.
Forrest
written by João da Silva, October 30, 2007
IT IS TIME BRASIL HAD A WOMAN PRESIDENT


Like Eva, Isabelita and Cristina? Whom do u have in mind for Brasil, Dilma? If u say yes, to all the questions, I would say "It is time for U.S. to elect Hillary as the POTUS next year" smilies/grin.gif
...
written by João da Silva, October 30, 2007
The problem in Brazil is the very low moral standards. The poor doesn't succeed because they don't think they can make anything and any effort would be for nothing. Immigrants usually move to another country to try a new life and that motivates them, and that shows that is possible to succeed in Brazil. The other guy actually have a point.


Yeah.Remember you said a few months ago that we have lost our moral values? Where the heck were u all this time?
David Mendonza
written by João da Silva, October 30, 2007
I remain horrified that so many well-educated, civilised (usually white) Brazilians seek to blame the (often non-white) poor for their condition. Maybe rather than seeking to exterminate the poor you would be better off allowing them to escape from poverty. Generally, people with prospects tend not to become drug addicts or career criminals.


I remain horrified that you generalize all the "well- educated (usually white) Brazilians" to be CIVILIZED and discard all the "often non-white" folks to be uncivilized. Probably you have never been to Brasil or came in recently . By making such statement, you just proved that Mario Silvio is correct. You are really a myopic leftist liberal without understanding our culture. I am disppointed with the statement you made. You must be a Spaniard, being a foreigner and with the last name u have.Probably trained by the descendents of Gen.Franco or more likely Gen.Fidel Castro.
DRUGS, CRIME, POOR, AND NO EDUCATION ARE ALL CHOICES
written by JAY GLENN, October 30, 2007
DRUGS, CRIME, POOR, AND NO EDUCATION ARE ALL CHOICES.

We in America outlawed alcohol, bear and wine, (prohibition). That was a liberal experiment, do goodies out to change the world. It changed America, Gangsters made millions bootlegging running rum from Canada. A few years later Prohibition was reversed. The government, Federal and State tax it, it worked to some extent. Now the government is making money on the poor, killing the population. The mob moved in to gambling, so we also legalized gambling with our State Lotteries, now the gangsters are not making gambling profits the government is. The poor once again are paying for it. Watch the lines at the lottery sales sites. The line is full of people who have families with needs going UN filled. Legalizing anything will just change who is making the profit, the poor will still be paying the price. ALL THE LAWS IN THE WORLD WILL NOT CHANGE PEOPLES MIND SET. PEOPLE MUST MAKE THE CORRECT CHOICE. America is full of families that have been here for 6 to 8 generations and have next to nothing. Then we have families who are second generation living in huge homes with good jobs. There children going to private schools. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE MIND SET. SO TAKE CARE OF YOUR SELF, DON’T SET AROUNG LOOKING FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO AKE CARE OF YOU.
Jay Glenn
written by João da Silva, October 30, 2007
DRUGS, CRIME, POOR, AND NO EDUCATION ARE ALL CHOICES


Gee, Jay. We all know that you fly airplanes. Never imagined you have become a philosopher too smilies/grin.gif

On a serious note, you are absolutely correct about the prohibition and other things you mentioned.
João da Silva
written by David Mendoza, October 31, 2007
I use "civilised" as a synonym for "sophisticated/cultured". Your personal attacks are childish. They need to cease, or I shall ignore you as others do.

I don’t think I would refer to the Brazilian middle class as civilised in respect to an advanced moral system. Without wishing to upset my in-laws, wearing Diesel jeans and admiring French culture is not a standard definition of civilisation! For civilisation in Brazil we have to look to black Salvador, the ordinary people of the northeast, and to the Indians.

Read the article above! A PhD is arguing for poor people to be aborted. Maybe if he had been aborted instead, then the money lavished on him could have been used to educate fifty poor Brazilians. When Swift suggested the poor Irish ate their children, he was being satirical. There is already a slaughter of poor people in Brazil. We now hear an argument for culling them!

Brazil needs economic liberalisation, not eugenics.
...
written by Rodolfo Dias, October 31, 2007
Slums exist because Brazilian politicians don't govern for the future, they only govern for their 4 (or smilies/cool.gif years at office. Long-term just does not exist on a Brazilian politician's agenda. The first slum appeared in 1898 at the top of the Providence Hill near the harbour zone, and who cared about? Any mayor with an average inteligence would have looked into the future and realised that, sooner or later, all the mountains in the city would become covered by slums, and that those slums would be a free zone for the mobs and gangsters to stablish on. Did anyone do anything to impede that to happen? Besides of Carlos Lacerda (1960-1965) I do not remember of any politician who tried to move these people out of the slums to decent houses in the legal urban area. Far from it, a lot of politicians thought the slums were a good way to solve the problem of having cheap labour at hands without having to share the "good neighbourhoods" with the employees they didn't want to have around after hours. Even Darcy Ribeiro, a leftist, said some crap like "slums are not problem, slums are solution". Anyway, it's too late now, there's no longer land to resettle all these people. In the times of Carlos Lacerda, people on slums were not more than 100,000 people and now they might be about 1,500,000. Now they are all just reaping what they have sown. I just think everyone who can get a job elsewhere should move out of Rio de Janeiro and abandon this city. This city has no solution any more.
...
written by bo, October 31, 2007
Your suggestion is a bit radical butworth being analysed. However, is there any other alternative to these Napalm bombs ?



Cluster bombs...bunker busters. smilies/wink.gif
...
written by antiJaner, October 31, 2007
This guy is the most barbaric, moronic, miserable a*****es in the world. He should die and go to hell.
Tell us...
written by bo, October 31, 2007
how you really feel. smilies/cheesy.gif
...
written by A Brazilian, October 31, 2007
For civilisation in Brazil we have to look to black Salvador, the ordinary people of the northeast, and to the Indians.


This is probably the stupidest thing I have ever read. Civilization is much more than ugly clothing (or no clothes in the case of the indians) and non-sensical dances.

Do you know the difference between high culture and low culture? If Brazil is to become civilized then we need to run away from the stereotypes Globo and other blacks sell of this country. Salvador? Don't make me laugh.
...
written by A Brazilian, October 31, 2007
Yeah.Remember you said a few months ago that we have lost our moral values? Where the heck were u all this time?


I have been busy.
Let's make a deal
written by A Brazilian, October 31, 2007
For civilisation in Brazil we have to look to black Salvador, the ordinary people of the northeast, and to the Indian.


If they are so important to you then let's make a deal. We send them to your country, so they can "culture you up" in a very sweaty, primitive and noisy way, and you give us the ownership of several technologies. Isn't it fair? If Bahia is so good then why wouldn't you want it?

I am of the opinion that if Europeans like so much Bahia they should take it with them to Europe. Then in no time you would have some sort of muslim-baiano-francophone type of citizen. Think about it. Instead of Eurabia you would have a Bahiarabia.
Slums on hillsides
written by Yowser, October 31, 2007
What I want to know is how did Brazilian slums get the be on the hillsides (with the great views). All hillside property in the U.S. is prime property and the most expensive next to ocean side property.
...
written by aes, October 31, 2007
Yowser: That is why the favelas are so long standing, commanding view of the Atlantic, low rent, no taxes, no building codes, free electricity and cable.
...
written by Mario Silvio, October 31, 2007
"Motivated immigrants are going to succeed anywhere: in the UK, in the USA, and even in Brazil"
In Brazil, UK, USA ? True. Anywhere? Not true, but anyway doesn't it prove that Brazil has social mobility? .
"That is a different issue from social mobility of the established population."
I'd rather say it is a different issue from social mobility of PART of the established population, since also hundreds of thousands of established people were able to succeed too. I worked with many people who started as office boys and ended as directors. So, what would be the difference between those who climbed the social ladder? Motivation? Sure, but motivation comes from moral values, from behavior standards and now we got to what I think is the major explanation of why many people aren't able to make a decent living from their work:
" For civilisation in Brazil we have to look to black Salvador, the ordinary people of the northeast, and to the Indians"
May be this isn't the stupidest thing I have ever read because the competition is though (take Lula and Chavez for instance), but it's certainlly one of the most damaging. From hearing things like this from so many "intelectuals", many people are now convinced that beating drums everyday and jumping on the streets is high level culture and they can become rich doing only that.
Half a dozen made it like Olodum, specially because some europeans found it "tres chic" and pay them, but it's impossible for millions to live on making noise.I couldn't agree more with A Brazilian when he says:
if Europeans like so much Bahia (one of the most overrated concepts in human history) they should take it with them to Europe

Please, take it and enjoy it.


" Maybe rather than seeking to exterminate the poor you would be better off allowing them to escape from poverty"
I don't know anyone who is seeking to exterminate the poor and neither anyone who "doesn't allow them to escape from poverty". Who are you talking about?
Let's talk social mobility:
Do you know who owns the only two major airlines in Brazil? The second main TV network? The third? The fourth? Have you ever heard of Natura? Of Casas Bahia?
slums and poverty
written by Holandes, October 31, 2007
Let's talk social mobility:
Do you know who owns the only two major airlines in Brazil? The second main TV network? The third? The fourth? Have you ever heard of Natura? Of Casas Bahia?

I lived a while in a favela near copacabana and what surprised me mostly was the fact that there was just enough money going round to buy a television, refrigerator etc at Ponto Frio, Casas Bahia etc (on credit mostly) and just a little to few to send children to better schools, to improve the professional skills to get a better job etc. This is not simply about poverty, it seems to be about the frightening balance between just enough salary to feed oneself and a very very very small experience of consumption power, which keeps the dream alive. Most inhabitants of the favelas are not traffickers, most inhabitants are stuck in the favelas, hoping they will be able to move somewhere else, somewhere safer.
...
written by João da Silva, October 31, 2007
Cluster bombs...bunker busters.


This is what I like. Receiving alternative suggestions . I am sure Ch.c incorporated these two in his spread sheet and will becoming out with a final cost effective solution.After all he was the one who suggested alternative target smilies/grin.gif
To Joao and the junkie ANTIJANER !!!!!
written by ch.c., October 31, 2007
"Your suggestion is a bit radical"
But certainly more fair than puting napalm to the poors in the Brazilians favelas !

"This guy is the most barbaric, moronic, miserable a*****es in the world. He should die and go to hell."
We all know how cheap is to kill a poor Brazilian, by your police forces or death squads....police men too !!!!!!
Therefore I really wonder who is the most Barbaric, moronic, miserable a*****es in the world.
Look at your own stats...and publish them...!!!!!
...
written by João da Silva, October 31, 2007
"Your suggestion is a bit radical"


Lately I am learning to be a real British diplomat, old chap smilies/grin.gif. And you very hilarious smilies/wink.gif
A Brazilian
written by João da Silva, October 31, 2007
I have been busy.


I suppose gainfully busy. You better report back to your real duties, as I am seriously considering taking a vacation!
Mario Silvio
written by João da Silva, October 31, 2007
I worked with many people who started as office boys and ended as directors. So, what would be the difference between those who climbed the social ladder? Motivation? Sure, but motivation comes from moral values, from behavior standards and now we got to what I think is the major explanation of why many people aren't able to make a decent living from their work:


Mario, you said it all and thanks. From the mid 60´s till mid 80´s , we had moral values and now no longer.

Do you know who owns the only two major airlines in Brazil? The second main TV network? The third? The fourth? Have you ever heard of Natura? Of Casas Bahia?


I know part of the story.Could you clue us all in about the rest?
Dom.Mendonza
written by João da Silva, October 31, 2007
They need to cease, or I shall ignore you as others do.


I declare a cease fire. Thou shall ignore me as others do.U for real, Mendonza? I cant believe that your balls are being squeezed by your in-laws that rever the French Culture.But it is your choice, mah friend. Before I get off the blog, I just want you to know that your in-laws do not belong to France nor to Brasil, but a just a bunch of leeches ON YOU.

Mendonça, grow up.

ivete pra presidenta
written by Jussara Lima, October 31, 2007
tá na hora da gente ter uma presidenta
poderia ser Marta Suplicy, senhorita Sarney ou até Ivete Sangalo smilies/wink.gif
vamos na praia sambar
vamooooooooooooo
...
written by Simpleton, November 01, 2007
:all the mountains in the city would become covered by slums, and that those slums would be a free zone for the mobs and gangsters to stablish on.
:Brazilian slums get the be on the hillsides (with the great views)

Whether it be the poor or the rich that take the high ground the result is the same except when the flood waters rise beyond their normal bounds o' the anchoring of the foundation was made in haste.

I think you'd best turn over the high ground to say someone like forrest or I. With clear views down to the better neighborhoods where the mafiosa live and an understanding of "cultured" people with or with out funds, with or with out trappings of "modern" society, with or with out the need for ornate machine made coverings for their soles, we might, just might, have a chance at helping things. I know, it's a long shot but when you're that lucky or that good, the benefit benefits all. Napalm, cluter bombs, terrorists in state garb (or out of garb off duty), euthanasia, none of this is required.

Joao, you are hereby ignored (and drunk, you ol sot!@).
...
written by David Mendoza, November 01, 2007
I am confused by the special pleading in this thread. It seems to me a statement of the obvious that a white Brazilian will almost always be advantaged over a moreno or black Brazilian of the same abilities.

Janer Cristaldo’s solution is to cull poor (overwhelmingly non-white) Brazilians. How can intelligent people even THINK such wickedness?
Abortion and contraceptives
written by Wehwalt, November 01, 2007
Until Brazil legalizes abortion and undertakes a MASSIVE contraceptives programme the problem with unwanted and uncared for children will continue. The hypocrites in the various "churches" will ofcourse be "morally outraged" but f..k them. What good have they ever done to the poor??
The other important measure is to clean out all the parasitic politicians who take bribes. The chinese have an efficient way of dealing with corruption - public trials and if found guilty, public executions
I guess I was a little obscure, sorry
written by Mario Silvio, November 01, 2007
"Do you know who owns the only two major airlines in Brazil? The second main TV network? The third? The fourth? Have you ever heard of Natura? Of Casas Bahia
I know part of the story.Could you clue us all in about the rest? "

My pleasure. I was refering to the fact that those companies were built in only one generation by people who worked hard and with no "official support".

"From the mid 60´s till mid 80´s , we had moral values and now no longer"
You got it João da Silva, and the worst part is.... it's getting worse.


David Mendoza,
"I am confused by the special pleading in this thread"
Don't be, I'll try to explain.
" It seems to me a statement of the obvious that a white Brazilian will almost always be advantaged over a moreno or black Brazilian of the same abilities"
May be so, probably so. Than what ?????? Let's go back to the Casas Bahia issue. Isn't it obvious too that a free Brazilian born would be advantaged over an imigrant who came from a concentration camp? Well, one of them (imigrant who came from a concentration camp) owns Casas Bahia, by far the biggest retailer in Brazil.

Holandes,
"Most inhabitants of the favelas are not traffickers"
No they certainlly aren't;
"most inhabitants are stuck in the favelas, hoping they will be able to move somewhere else, somewhere safer. "
They are not stuck.
Old ideas never really go away
written by A brazilian, November 01, 2007
Until Brazil legalizes abortion and undertakes a MASSIVE contraceptives programme the problem with unwanted and uncared for children will continue. The hypocrites in the various "churches" will ofcourse be "morally outraged" but f..k them. What good have they ever done to the poor??


I know of a guy with ideas similar to yours, his name was Adolf Hitler and his party was the Nazi party. Germany by then engaged in a massive abortion and compulsory sterilizations for the ones deemed "unfit" (criminals, "anti-social" Germans, homosexuals, political enemies, gypsies, etc) plus euthanasia for the "dead weight" mentally ill, who was a burden to the state. Why pay treatment for people with some incurable mental illness? Wouldn't be better to just get rid of them so the good ones in a society can prosper? Their politics were much bigger than just killing Jews, it doesn't matter how much American movies would like us to believe otherwise.

That's why I think that anybody that promotes abortion as a solution is insane. Yes, I think you are insane.
BAHIA ROCKS
written by Jussara Lima, November 01, 2007
it seems that SULISTA people don't like BAHIA smilies/angry.gif
SHAME ON SULISTAS
Jussara Lima
written by João da Silva, November 01, 2007
BAHIA ROCKS


Excuse me Ju, you made a spelling mistake. Delete "K" and Replace "C" with "T".

it seems that SULISTA people don't like BAHIA


What difference does it make? BA is part of Europe now.

SHAME ON SULISTAS


De acordo. We are ashamed that we refuse to accept the rich culture of BA smilies/angry.gif
...
written by Shelly, November 01, 2007
Not all favelados are criminals. I agree, Rio has become such a s**t whole, thanks to our F governors! I am against abortion, and Cabral has given an opinion which has given the Catholic church more ammunition to keep their agenda going.I think women should be allowed to do whatever they way with their bodies, but the manner in which Cabral has suggested abortion, is not far from a fascist ideology. He promised to solve the solution in Rio, we are paying taxes and our beloved military man, are inside the cleaning toilets. It is time our government takes the responsibility for this mess and let's not create a division in our country. The north has a history of being discriminated by the southern states, maybe if we look deep inside we will come to an agreement here, we all need to do more community service, from phone calls to seeing children in the orphanages. I suggest next time you visit Bahia or any other northern state, that you take a time of your day to see the children living there and remember they are the future of our country. Brazil violates the UN human rights "law" (we signed, didn't we?), millions of children are being denied education, do we have someone checking to make sure that the kids attend school? Many times social workers abuse children and basically do no care about the welfare of the children they are dealing with.

1)Because the state does not pay them well
2)they are powerless
3)Many public orphanages are in such bad conditions unfit for humans. Many Americans would not keep their dogs in such places.

MARIO
"most inhabitants are stuck in the favelas, hoping they will be able to move somewhere else, somewhere safer. "
They are not stuck.

Where would you move them? Away from their jobs? Are you saying that the poor have to move away from where they work, from where their kids go to school? I remember well in the 80's and 90's there was a project, another failure of the Brazilian goverment, to relocate the population living in the favelas to places like Beldford Roxo, Nova Iguacu, etc. Do you think that someone living in Rocinha and working for a family in Ipanema will move to such places? This is why the program has failed. What should be done is give this places sanitation, schools, create good economic programs, more apprenticeship schools, decent wages, health care, etc.

The government wants to keep the population without education because they want subjugate and enslave the poor. Violence will only bring violence, take a history class or look at the news, and we are repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
...
written by Shelly, November 01, 2007
solve the solution in Rio

solve the problem in Rio
A brazilian
written by Shelly, November 01, 2007
It will be the fastest way to create a land of drug addicts and useless people constantly numbed down by the effects of narcotics. Why don't the US do it first? Why to experiment with Brazil's population?

Dear, we don't even need to go there. Do you want to know why the drug deals keep going on? Because we have high rank politicians directly involved with the drug traffic that is for sure. Do you know that Barra da Tijuca is actually safe, do you know why? I won't tell you, do a little research on the internet and you will find out. Recently a police detective helped the a drug baron scape an operation, he is not the only one!
To Joao !
written by ch.c., November 01, 2007
Clusters bombs and bunkers bombs is way too expensive and out of the Brazilian technology.
My spreadsheet says ETHANOL BOMBS would do the job. Much cheaper.
Ask Bin Lula he will agree with me, provided he doesnt drink the ethanol instead of puting it into the bomb !
Diverting money or a good from its supposed destination is what corruption is, after all.

smilies/cheesy.gif
To Shelly Chérie !
written by ch.c., November 01, 2007
"Why don't the US do it first? Why to experiment with Brazil's population?
The one who got the idea first should try it first, in my view.

Or are you trying to steal the first ranking of the USA for world competivity ?
Then you have to addict the other 70 countries too.

Are you not already trying to addict the world...with your ethanol ?
Little and no great succes...so far.
But keep working hard to reduce the selling price by another 50 % by importing african slaves as you did in the past and pay them with the Bolsa Familia...the equivalent of 0,50 per day for 3 delicious meals....as Lula repeated so many times.

Viva Bin Lula and his 4000 thieves.
Ch.C
written by João da Silva, November 01, 2007
Clusters bombs and bunkers bombs is way too expensive and out of the Brazilian technology.


Thanks bud, I always knew you were cost conscious. However, I must register my protest against your putting down our professionals who are very good in Tech field.

My spreadsheet says ETHANOL BOMBS would do the job. Much cheaper.


Since you chose the "alternative target" and your "spreadsheet" confirmed the cost effectiveness of this operation, my reply is "Authorised"

Ask Bin Lula he will agree with me, provided he doesnt drink the ethanol instead of puting it into the bomb !


BL would never ever agree with you. He doesnt matter and we dont mind taking all the necessary measures as suggested by your "SPREADSHEET" smilies/grin.gif
CH.C
written by Shelly, November 01, 2007
To Shelly Chérie !
written by ch.c., 2007-11-01 20:05:50
"Why don't the US do it first? Why to experiment with Brazil's population?
The one who got the idea first should try it first, in my view.

Or are you trying to steal the first ranking of the USA for world competivity ?
Then you have to addict the other 70 countries too.

Are you not already trying to addict the world...with your ethanol ?
Little and no great succes...so far.
But keep working hard to reduce the selling price by another 50 % by importing african slaves as you did in the past and pay them with the Bolsa Familia...the equivalent of 0,50 per day for 3 delicious meals....as Lula repeated so many times.

Viva Bin Lula and his 4000 thieves.


ARE YOU NUTS? I didn't write the message, a Brazilian did! And f**k YOU! I don't have anything to do with the slavery. Maybe you should look at the accounts in YOUR DAM country and see that YOU (ASSUMING, that you are a Swiss) have BLOOD money, from Africa, Brazil and other Third World Country. Nothing better than a bit of finesse, don't you agree?
...
written by Shelly, November 02, 2007
The only BOMB Brazil knows how to do is the one's seen at the "festa junina", "Cabecao de nego", "peido alemao", "estalinho"...
Jussara
written by A Brazilian, November 02, 2007
Our country is plagued by some peoples that insist in living like beasts. There's only one truth, relativism is for nihilistic Europeans and not for us. It's about time for them to stop their bestial practices and start building something human.
...
written by nenê, November 02, 2007
My opinion is better than LEGALIZE ABORTION IS PROVIDE FREE CONTRACEPTIVE TO LOW INCOME-WOMEN. PRICES OF THIS DRUG ARE STUPIDLY HIGH (TAXES AND MULTINATIONAL LABORATORIES PRICES) AND POOR WOMEN CAN'T AFFORD IT. WHY GO THROUGH A TRAUMATIZING EXPERIENCE SUCH AS ABORTION? GIVE THE WOMEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE OVER THEIR LIVES.
...
written by nenê, November 02, 2007
FORGOT TO MENTION THAT BESIDES ENDEMIC CORRUPTION, THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT DON'T PROVIDE FREE CONTRACEPTIVE BECAUSE in a few year slavery wages, unskilled work labor would ruin brazil's economy. What a shame!! smilies/angry.gif
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written by nenê, November 02, 2007
I meant the lack of slavery-like wages and semi or no-skilled jobs and work force would ruin Brazil's economy due to small birthrates.
jussara
written by Shelly, November 03, 2007
Have you actually listened to the music in Brazil these days? Full of bad language, slangs that glorify the life of the gangsters. A true shame! I am all for cultural expression, but the stuff playing on clubs these days ( in Brazil) doesn't not represent culture. In my opinion, is all about money. I agree, we need a comprehensive plan, women need to know that it is better to prevent than deal with the consequences. However, as I have done plenty of community work, I could see that we would have a problem teaching these people how to take a contraceptive pill. To begin with, they need to know how to read, process and assimilate the information given to them. We need to provide injection (some contraceptives can be given as IM), these are usually more expensive and it requires hygene practices, which we lack at public hospitals. It all boils down to education. We can all try to find a band-aid solution, but education is key.
nene' shell - you haven't a clue
written by Simpleton, November 03, 2007
The education provida is on the rise, let us hope in time it will help some but don't pretend this is something that only favela dwellers and club party gals are subject to. The prospect of an unwanted child can and does happen to those that are not insufficiently educated, not without established families, not working in / connected to their local community, not without funds to buy the contraceptives you say the state is not making available in adequate quantities either free or at an appropriately low price. In a way Shell, you are right. It is all about money. The unavoided third child for a family that is beyond it's ability and age to do the best it can to try to provide for the first two is a problem. So, in some way, are the two out of eight siblings we took in to be as our own. Why were there eight you ask? Because the state does not have, should not have, and hopefully never will have the right to impose its will upon anyone in such matters (like in forcing tubes to be tied, IM injections, abortions). The concept that the state is being intentionally daggardly imposing its will in an opposite fashion forcing women to to have unwanted children to feed the no cost / low cost labor pool is ludicrous.
To Shelly and Jussara
written by Mario Silvio, November 03, 2007
"it seems that SULISTA people don't like BAHIA SHAME ON SULISTAS"

Jussara Lima,
Obviously I don't speak for all "sulistas(?)" but I don't like Bahia and everything it stands for and would like to ask you something: why should I like those who glorify laziness and live on taxes paid by hard working people from Sao Paulo to the south?

OK, Shelly,now I'll try to answer your questions:

"Where would you move them?"
I wouldn't move them anywhere, they should take care of themselves like others do.

" Away from their jobs? Are you saying that the poor have to move away from where they work, from where their kids go to school?"
I went to college in a University 20 kms from where I lived, my fist job was 23 km away from home, I know many people who live in another city and come to work in Sao Paulo everyday. Have you ever heard the word commuting? Do you know that most of the people who work in London, Paris and New York live very far from their job places? Why can't people in Rio or Sao Paulo do the same? As a matter of fact many do.

" Do you think that someone living in Rocinha and working for a family in Ipanema will move to such places?"
No, I don't think so, but than it's their choice and therefore tax money shouldn't be wasted on them.

"What should be done is give this places sanitation, schools, create good economic programs, more apprenticeship schools, decent wages, health care, etc. "
Give, give, give.... Do you know what's the problem with your solution? There wouldn't be enough givers.

"It all boils down to education. We can all try to find a band-aid solution, but education is key. "
Finally something we agree on: education, education and than more education. The first step should be stop selling the idea that going to school is a favor and should be rewarded. The money should be spent on EDUCATION and not food, clothing and "bolsas" like it's today.


...
written by nenê, November 03, 2007
EDUCATION WAS PROVIDED TO GERMAN SOCIETY AND ONLY THAT DID NOT AVOID AN ADOLF HITLER TO RISE, DOMINATE AND MANIPULATE HUNGRY GERMAN MEN AND WOMEN. HOW ABOUT JUST ONLY STICK TO BRAZIL'S CONSTITUTIONS AND PROVIDE WHAT IS LEGALLY UNDERSTOOD AS THEIR RIGHTS, TO BRAZILIAN SOCIETY? BRAZILIANS NEED TO DEVELOP TO A POINT THAT THEIR EDUCATIONS TELL THEM TO DEMAND THEIR RIGHTS.
...
written by nenê, November 03, 2007
OH OH DEMAND THEIR RIGHTS... THOSE ARE VERY DANGEROUS WORDS...
...
written by A Brazilian, November 03, 2007
HOW ABOUT JUST ONLY STICK TO BRAZIL'S CONSTITUTIONS AND PROVIDE WHAT IS LEGALLY UNDERSTOOD AS THEIR RIGHTS, TO BRAZILIAN SOCIETY? BRAZILIANS NEED TO DEVELOP TO A POINT THAT THEIR EDUCATIONS TELL THEM TO DEMAND THEIR RIGHTS.


The Brazilian constition says that the citizens are entitled to everything for free. If there were actually a way of paying for this big party where everyone can get theirs for free then Brazil would be a paradise on Earth where everyone wouldn't need to worry about competition or jobs or struggling for their survival.
...
written by Mario Silvio, November 03, 2007
" .... BRAZIL'S CONSTITUTIONS AND PROVIDE WHAT IS LEGALLY UNDERSTOOD AS THEIR RIGHTS,"
It would be mathematically impossible, so there is no point on discussing it.

"The Brazilian constition says that the citizens are entitled to everything for free. If there were actually a way of paying for this big party where everyone can get theirs for free then Brazil would be a paradise on Earth where everyone wouldn't need to worry about competition or jobs or struggling for their survival. "
And that would be wonderful, but there is only a very small problem as you stated.... IF THERE WERE A WAY
...
written by nenê, November 03, 2007
Are you telling me that IF Federal Constitution WAS Brazilian's prime reference, corrupt government employees and politians would be put in jail and enough money would be left to provide DECENT health assistance and education for people who maintain a family with a 300, 400, 500, 600 till 1000 REAIS wage IS EXACTLY TOO MUCH? Isn't it enough that your wives pay their nailpolishers and cleaning assistants a slave-like salary? Can't they have a decent, NOT LUXURIOUS, existance? No, that is too much for facists, no big news (roll eyes).
Mario Silvio/A Brazilian
written by João da Silva, November 03, 2007
If you both are taking about the 1988 constitution, I have a question: Was it necessary to write an ENTIRELY new constitution, when we could have amended the previous one?

I would like the opinions of you, since you both are discussing something very interesting. A couple of renowned jurists I know think it was NOT necessary to write a new one.
nene
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
The elite in Brazil wants to keep the masses subjugated, under their thumb. Why educate? They want to keep paying low wages, otherwise who is going to clean their homes? I want to see the "dondocas" do it here!
Simpleton
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
No, you don't have a clue.

Why were there eight you ask?

Because it is well documented that countries that have high TFR are those where its citizens are poor and uneducated. Also, people have 8 kids these days in order to have more family members working. We see this in Brazil, in Africa and in India. I agree with you, the State should not decide whether a woman has or not a child, but it should-as we have signed the UN Declaration of Human Rights, to give every person a chance to live freely. To me freedom is more than the corporeal liberty, but the freedom of mind, choice and knowing your rights and responsibilities as a citizen.

4. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Slavery is not just as the word implies, we have children working while they should be in school. If we weren't a corrupt country and society, we would have plenty for everyone.

5. No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Women and children are subject to cruelty and torture. The state's child protective service does abuse children, there were many cases portrayed on the news.

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

The State should protect its citizen and help create a sense of civil society, have you actually read Tocqueville, The Federalist n10, Adams Ferguson's, Locke's essays? Be careful, I am not for racial segregation, I see myself as a global citizen. But some of Tocqueville's idea on his essay Democracy in America are quite good.

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Brazil does not provide a good standard of living and adequate health and well being for its citizen. Period. It is not give, give, give, it is our right under our constitution. I am in total agreement with Joao, why re-write the whole thing when we could have saved money and included some amendments? You can usually tell if a country is serious by the number of times it has to re-write its constitution. This is a serious issue, not taken seriously in Brazil and Venezuela. I see a constitution as a "sacred" document and we are all too quick in Brazil to re-do it, because we don't like the style or the ideas of previous presidents. How many times have we re-written our constitution?

Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

Shall be compulsory, but do we have people checking to see if the kids go to school? Higher education is accessible if you have money to send you kid to private schools and preparatorios

I don't have a clue, think again!

Simpleton, it is not a matter of give, give, give. We should help those less fortunate, help them get on their own two feet. However, we are not giving the poor the right tools to set them free, to change how they are living today. Bolsa Familia should not be a permanent remedy, but a temporary fix. You know Lula bought the voters, it is not about helping the poor, it is all about self-gratification.
Mario Silvio
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
Do you know that most of the people who work in London, Paris and New York live very far from their job places? Why can't people in Rio or Sao Paulo do the same? As a matter of fact many do.

I have lived in New York and England. I lived 45 minutes from London and used public transportation. Always used the tube while living in England, New York and BUS in Rio. Here is difficult, VA is very "transportation unfriendly". Anyway, back to your question. I guess you think that we can just move people that have been living in Rocinha for the past 30 years away? You are out of touch, trying to compare London, Paris and New York to Rio is a joke. They are modern cities, built on a solid plan and are not seeing a influx of underskilled workers arriving every day. Get real! How many people are arriving everyday in Sao Paulo?
...
written by Rodolfo Dias, November 04, 2007

If you both are taking about the 1988 constitution, I have a question: Was it necessary to write an ENTIRELY new constitution, when we could have amended the previous one?


Because the previous Constitution was written in 1969, in the Militar Dictatorship, and it was treated as a scapegoat. In my opinion, all they needed to do was just to revoke that 1969's constitution and take back the democratic one written in 1946.
Rodolfo
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
Question for you , are you from Rio?
...
written by Rodolfo Dias, November 04, 2007
Nope, Shelly, I'm from Niteroi RJ - which is turning as dangerous as Rio too, unfortunately. smilies/sad.gif
OUR BAHIAN MONEY SHOULD STAY IN BAHIA, NOT GO TO SAMPA (VIA BRASILIA)
written by Jussara Lima, November 04, 2007
''Obviously I don't speak for all "sulistas(?)" but I don't like Bahia and everything it stands for and would like to ask you something: why should I like those who glorify laziness and live on taxes paid by hard working people from Sao Paulo to the south?''

but Brazilian government takes profit from Bahian turism and oil industry and with this money they can build more industries in Sao Paulo. OUR BAHIAN MONEY SHOULD STAY in BAHIA. CARIOCA money should stay in RIO. NO energy for nuclear power station in Angra to Ubatuba or Sao Sebastiao. You find your own way. smilies/grin.gif
Shelly
written by nenê, November 04, 2007
The elite in Brazil wants to keep the masses subjugated, under their thumb. Why educate? They want to keep paying low wages, otherwise who is going to clean their homes? I want to see the "dondocas" do it here!


Yep, é isso aí, you've got it right! It seems like justice is a bit too much for some people... Justice? That's luxury! The crap world goes round and round and it doesn't change, no matter what.

Very good asnwer to Simpleton, congrats.

You don't know what are you talking about
written by Mario Silvio, November 04, 2007
To Shelly,
"I guess you think that we can just move people that have been living in Rocinha for the past 30 years away? "
I don't think WE should move anyone. You and others are the ones who are complaining about the living conditions in Rocinha and that the government shoud do this and that, so I guess YOU think they should be moved to penthouses in Sao Conrado paied by our taxes of course.
"You are out of touch, trying to compare London, Paris and New York to Rio is a joke"
I never tried to compare Rio to anything, what I said is that millions of people all over the world spend hours everyday comuting. I did it many years. You failed to say why the favelados are entitled no to have to.

Btw, during the last years more people are LEAVING Sao Paulo than arriving. Get real, or at least updated.


To Jussara,

"but Brazilian government takes profit from Bahian turism and oil industry and with this money they can build more industries in Sao Paulo."
You are joking, right? When was is that the government build industries in Sao Paulo ????????? Sao Paulo wealth is due to the private sector (from the Matarazzos to the Ermirio de Moraes), it has always been. Here's an idea: let's see how much of the federal taxes are paid in Sao Paulo and how much of it is spent here. Last time I checked, it was more than 35% against 4%, get it? FOUR!Where do you think the rest is spended? Try Brasilia and the Northeast. How about Bahia, have you got the data?
Let alone people from other states coming to USP and Hospital das Clinicas.

"“OUR BAHIAN MONEY SHOULD STAY in BAHIA. CARIOCA money should stay in RIO“"
You got yourself a deal my dear. What a pity it's not to us to decide!

Have you ever heard of SUDENE?
...
written by João da Silva, November 04, 2007
"“OUR BAHIAN MONEY SHOULD STAY in BAHIA. CARIOCA money should stay in RIO“"


In fact, Bahia should declar