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What Brazil Can Learn from the US on Race and Education PDF Print E-mail
Written by Francis Wardle   
Tuesday, 04 March 2008 11:30

A classroom in Brazil Since 1996 I have had the pleasure of visiting Brazil many times. On each of these occasions I have visited schools, creches (nurseries), kindergartens, and NGOs. The schools visited include municipal, state and federal public schools, private schools, and schools where students attend for a few days at a time (language and arts schools).

I have also talked to principals, teachers, and students in these schools, and education professors and students at local universities. My observations are, of course, viewed through the prism of an American educator who teaches both at the university and community college level.

I am also very familiar with the American multiracial education movement. In my Brazilian observations I have learned a great deal about Brazil's early childhood programs and schools. While I believe Brazil must develop her own, unique solutions to the scourge of racism in her schools, I believe she can benefit from the overall educational approach used in the United States, not to mention specific multicultural educational strategies.

These ideas include recognizing the severity of the problem, adopting a multicultural approach, including all cultures and peoples equally within the curriculum, providing alternative methods for students to enter college, targeting federal resources to the poorest schools, and using a variety of instructional approaches in the classroom.

Racist School Presentation

On one of my many visits to Brazil to study schools, creches and NGOs, I had the opportunity to observe a group of gifted performers present a program to children in a municipal school. The children sat on the floor in a typical Brazilian educational space that was half indoors and half outdoors.

The performance was presented on a stage and local community members also enjoyed the activity from behind a fence. The young performers were paid by a federal agency for the express purpose of providing culture and educational enrichment for children in public schools.

The play is a collection of vignettes taken from a variety of popular fairy tales, including Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, and many others. Between each scene one of the performers plays her guitar and sings a beautiful song. Many of the teachers join in the chorus; apparently it's a well-known song.

Large puppets that the actors place on their feet and then attach to their bodies provide the action. There are also a few props, including a ship (for the pirate), a blue butterfly, and some cute green bugs. The presentation is very well done, and captivates the children, even though it is quite long by American standards.

While I watch the action on the set, I am really more interested in watching the children. They are a rich combination of browns  -  brown skin and brown hair. The girls have their hair in a variety of styles: tight braids held with colorful barrettes, curly hair loosely framing their faces, and two simple braids. All the children have big, brown eyes, and enthusiastic, open faces.

The plot is the old standby of a beautiful princess looking for a husband. She is visited by a variety of suitors, including a black prince who is quite ugly and engages in stereotypical behavior - dancing and being silly. Finally the princess chooses a pirate to marry so that she can travel and see the world. (Wardle, 2005a, p. 2)

The presentation was extremely well done, and the children, teachers and community members enjoyed it greatly, and clapped enthusiastically.

But I was stunned by the racism.

The beautiful princess was a blonde, blue-eyed princess; the man she eventually decided to marry was a white-skinned, European-looking pirate.

After the presentation in the municipal public school the principal and some of her teachers graciously took me on a tour of the school. We visited classrooms, talked to children, and got a real feel for the school and the commitment of the principal and her staff.

On our way to the principal's office to eat lunch, I observed the three performers from the earlier presentation. I mustered the courage to ask my translator if he would pose a question to the actors for me. He asked my question:

"All of the little girls watching the play have beautiful brown skin, brown hair and brown eyes. Why did you make the princess a blue-eyed blonde? Why did you tell each of these young girls that they couldn't be a princess?" I could have added, "and why did you tell each of the boys watching your presentation they could not be a successful suitor for the princess?" (Wardle, 2005a, p. 4)

According to my translator, they were quite upset with my question, but finally gave me several answers:

* In the four years we have given this presentation, you are the first person to ask this question.

* We tried to change the traditional fairy tales. This is why we included a Negro (black) prince, and why the princess chose a pirate, so she could travel and see the world.

* This princess is the symbol of female beauty in Brazil (Wardle, 2005a).

An American Perspective

I viewed this presentation from the perspective of an American educator schooled in multicultural approaches to education. "Multiculturalism incorporates the idea that all students  - regardless of their gender and social class and their ethnic, racial or cultural characteristics  -  should have an equal opportunity to learn in school (Banks and Banks, 2004, pp. 3).

Multicultural education in the United States developed as a direct result of the 1965 Civil Rights Act, which guaranteed all minorities in the United States legal equality, including students in public schools. It gained considerable popularity during the 1980s (Banks and Banks, 2004).

It now includes pre-K programs, K-12 grade public schools, and colleges and universities. American multicultural education has many components, but "accepts and affirms the pluralism (ethnic, racial, linguistic, religious, economic, and gender among others) that students, their communities, and teachers reflect" (Nieto, 2004, p. 437).

I do not believe that Brazilian educators should adopt our multicultural approach without critical analysis. Brazil has very different contextual parameters when compared to the United States; further, there are aspects of our multicultural education approach that do not work (discussed later in the article), and we still have important work to do in this area. Let's look at the three answers to my question through the perspective of American educational approaches and attitudes.

You Are the First to Ask This Question

If this is true, and I have no reason to believe it is not, then the educational establishment in Brazil has no understanding of the heavy negative psychological impact racism can have on the healthy development of children of color, and on their learning and overall educational success.

The research by Sandra Leila de Paul and Simone Loiola de Ferreira powerfully illustrates that children in public schools in Brazil have very negative and stereotypical views of black and dark-skinned children and people (2005). My extensive interview of a mixed-race college student (African/Amerindian/white) further confirmed the extreme pain and negative psychological damage caused by the very popular children's TV programs of Xuxa, a blond host with identically cloned blond, blue-eyed assistants.

This student reported that both the students and teachers in her schools compared her hair and complexion negatively to Xuxa and her attendants, and made derogatory comments about her dark skin (Wardle, 2005b). What made this comparison particularly destructive was the view by the children and teachers that a blond-haired, blue-eyed European prototype not only represents the ideal Brazilian female beauty, but also symbolizes a higher cultural and academic potential of European-looking students.

In the United States our approach to teaching healthy identity development, including gender and race/ethnicity, is framed through several theoretical lenses, including Piaget, Vygotsky and Bandura. Piaget has powerfully demonstrated that young children are concrete learners, learning all their basic concepts through direct experiences (Piaget, 1963).

This means that children in our educational programs learn from teachers, other children, visual images on the walls, and curricular and instructional materials. Vygotsky's work has helped us understand that children learn new ideas and reinforce existing concepts through their social interactions with other children and adults, including teachers (Vygotsky, 1978).

Clearly, if teachers and children have negative and stereotypical views of people of color, (those with darker skin and curlier hair), these negative views will be adopted by children of color themselves, and negatively impact their self-concept development and learning.

And, finally, Bandura's social learning theory has demonstrated the powerful impact of the models that children look up to, such as TV personalities and teachers in their schools (Bandura, 1963). If the princess in the story is the European ideal prototype, all the children will constantly compare their dark, wavy hair, dark eyes, and dark skin to the princess's straight, blond hair, white skin and blue eyes. And they will come up short.

In the United States we use ideas from these three theorists and the overall multicultural educational approach to make sure that curricular materials represent children and people with a variety of racial, ethnic, and language backgrounds, and with different abilities and of both genders (Nieto, 2004; Wardle & Cruz-Janzen, 2004; York, 2003).

We also are very careful to avoid stereotypes, and thus would not portray an African prince as comical and always dancing. Teachers are taught in college and in professional development sessions about the negative impact of holding one kind of person and one culture superior to other people and cultures, and of the critical need to empower every child to feel good about their physical characteristics and learning potential (York, 2003).

However, Brazil must avoid a fundamental mistake of American multicultural education: using the single-race/ethnicity approach to culture and identity (Wardle, 1999). This is a practice that places all people and cultures within basic, single- racial/ethnic groups defined by the US Census: Black or African American; American Indian or Alaskan Native; Asian, Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander; White or Caucasian, and Latino (Wardle & Cruz-Janzen, 2004).

The single-group approach does not work in the United States because there are many children in our schools who do not fit into any one of these groups; it would be even more problematic in Brazil, which has a very large, diverse and rich mixed-race population.

Adapting a Traditional European Fairytale

One of the challenges Brazil must face in addressing racism in schools is that, to a very large extent Brazil views its European cultural background as highly superior to all the other influences on its culture, including Afro-Brazilian, Amerindian, non-European immigrants, and its own unique Brazilian culture (created out of an amalgamation of all Brazilian peoples). European folk tales are preferred to Amerindian, Black or Asian folk tales, or even Brazilian tales that have developed throughout Brazil's unique and rich cultural history.

In the Untied States we have made considerable progress in this area, including acknowledging and celebrating the histories and culture of the vast and rich diversity of Native American tribes, African Americans, Latinos and others. However, we still have a long way to go, as we do not fully represent the rich diversity of people within these large groups, or include the many new immigrants in our tales, books, and other classroom materials, and we still totally exclude and ignore any part of our own mixed-race heritage and culture (Wardle and Cruz-Janzen, 2004).

Part of the dilemma in the United States is that commercial publishers of books, curricula and curricular materials must produce enough products to make a profit, which requires each of these groups of people to be a certain size. The other huge problem is that our schools still do not collect demographic data on the total racial and ethnic diversity of children, being confined to the five over- broad US Census categories previously mentioned (Williams, 2006).

This Princess Is the Symbol of Female Beauty in Brazil

This, of course, is true. Casual observations of magazine advertisements, billboards in shopping centers, women on commercial TV, and popular fashion models both in Brazil and the US, would lead the average foreigner to believe that all Brazilian women are white or morena.

American culture also includes a whole variety of biases, prejudices and stereotypes. However, one of the central goals of multicultural education is to change these biases, and to provide students with a much more accurate and empowering view of American culture and diversity (Banks & Banks, 2004; Nieto, 2004; York, 2002).

Thus Brazilian schools need to address this European cultural bias head on. This must occur both at the university level, where teachers receive their training, and at the national level, where the national curriculum is developed, and the vestibular's content is determined.

The national curriculum must reflect the positive contributions of all Brazilians, including rich mixed-race people, to the country's culture, history, and nation-state: literature, art, architecture, dance, music, religion, industry, history, agriculture, discoveries, etc.

Structural Inequalities in Brazilian Schools

On my many visits to Brazil I studied private schools; federal, state and municipal public schools, and federal schools that children attend  -  at a cost  -  on visits from their regular schools (language and art schools in Brasília).

Of my many observations, one that sticks with me the strongest is that the poorer the school, the more children of color attend; the wealthier the schools (private and federal schools) the lighter the skin of the children who attend (Wardle, 2005b). Thus, in Brazil, race and income are very closely linked.

Unlike many others who are currently focusing on issues of racism in Brazil, I deeply believe that racism cannot be adequately addressed without addressing poverty at the same time. To me they go hand in hand.  Clearly poverty is a larger question that involves the inequitable distribution of income and wealth in Brazil. But an attempt must be made to equalize educational opportunity for all children in Brazil, regardless of their race, ethnicity and/or income.

Unequal Financial Support

The municipal public schools are funded at a far lower level than the federal schools, with the state public schools somewhere in the middle.  In one city that I visited, the municipal public school had one TV (contributed by the principal), their gym was a slab of concrete, and teachers did not have enough chalk for the chalkboard.

The lighting in the classroom was so poor that I had considerable trouble seeing children in the back of the room, and there were no books, posters or other curricular materials in any of the classrooms. In the very same town the federal public school contained its own dentist's office, they published their own educational journal, there were separate rooms for culture, play and physical therapy, and the school employed many teachers with master's degrees. I was told the students who attend this school are children of politicians and teachers at the local university (Wardle, 2005b).

Public schools in the United States are funded through a combination of three sources of money: private property taxes (homes and businesses), state budget funds, and federal dollars (the smallest amount). This approach leads to schools in wealthier districts being funded at a higher level than schools in poorer districts (inner cities and rural areas); however, in many areas the state's contribution to the local school budget has increased over the last years, and will probably continue to do so.

And almost all of the federal funds go to the poorest school districts across the country. Head Start, a multi-billion dollar federally funded program for preschool children (the year before formal school entry) is only for poor children. Head Start is a program that, I believe, Brazil could replicate effectively.

Vestibular

Brazil uses the European approach to university entrance, rather than the US approach. The European approach requires students to pass a complex variety of exams  -  in England (where I am from) they are called the A level exams. In England the average public school provides adequate preparation for students to pass these college entry-level tests, and thus parents do not have to pay for expensive private schools and tutors to prepare their students to pass these exams.

However, the irony is that, while the tax-supported universities in Brazil are free, it is virtually impossible to pass the vestibular without attending private secondary schools and paying for expensive tutors. Thus the wealthy and middle-class get a free university education, while the poor do not!

It is my understanding that the current federal administration is attempting to address this inequality. It is yet to be seen how effective they will be in eliminating the vestibular or vestibular-type assessment as the only gateway for students to receive free higher education in Brazil.

In the US there are a variety of 4-year college and university options  -  state, private and religious (there are no federal universities). We also have a vast array of community colleges  -  two-year colleges and technical schools.

Entry into US state colleges and universities (the cheapest) is through two primarily channels. The simplest way for students to enter is through a combination of a single test (SAT or ACT) and their high school grade-point average. Unlike Brazil, most public schools in the US prepare their students to be able to pass these assessments and have a high enough grade-point average to enter college.

My son, who struggled in high school due to a learning disability and who also had a very low SAT score, nonetheless was able to enter Colorado State University, due to a special program. It must be noted here that, despite what many Brazilians believe (based on my interviews), Harvard, Yale and Stanford (very expensive private schools) along with expensive religious schools such as Notre Dame, are not the only options for a university education in this country. Every state has a variety of state institutions. In Colorado, a small state by population, we have over ten four-year institutions of higher learning.

The second way for students to enter a university is to attend a community college for two years. By law these colleges must admit any student over the age of 18. If these students are incapable of doing the work at the college, the college provides remedial assistance. After completing the two-year program at the community college, a student can transfer from the community college to a four-year degree college or university.

Further, in the US there are many grants and loans for students who cannot afford to pay for a college degree. There is even a specific grant for students who are the first in their family to go to college.

It is quite accurate to say that anyone in the US who wishes to go to college can, in fact, go to college.

In Brazil the reality for poor, mostly children of color, is that they will not be able to go pursue their education beyond public school. Thus there is no motivation to do well in school. There is no long-term goal for which they can achieve, and for which their teachers can help them plan for and work towards. Thus, to a large extent, doing well in school for poor children is meaningless.

Instructional Approaches

From my observations of schools in Brazil, the most common teaching approach is the didactic approach: teacher-to-student, with the teacher as the expert and the student as the passive receiver of information. It is my experience that Brazilian educators teach almost exclusively using the verbal-linguistic and logical - mathematical intelligences described by Howard Gardner (Gardner, 1983).

Further, the poorer the school and the more minorities in the school, the more teacher-directed the approach appears to be (Wardle, 2005c). In the United States teaching approaches include a variety of methods: large group, teacher-directed approach; small group; individual, and lots of student-directed learning opportunities: projects, papers, research, etc. Some schools even include mixed-age instruction.

Further, in the United States Howard Gardner's multiple intelligences are quite popular among educators. This theory proposes that children learn through a variety of learning styles - a preference of one or more of eight intelligences (approaches to learning) (Gardner, 1983): logical-mathematical, verbal linguistic, musical, spatial, interpersonal, intrapersonal, bodily-kinesthetic, and naturalist. Teachers then provide a variety of instruction that allows students to learn though one or more of these modalities.

While all children need teaching approaches that match their own unique learning styles, and teachers who provide a variety of delivery methods beyond just teacher-directed instruction, it can be argued that children from low-income and poorly educated homes benefit most from approaches that focus on more child-directed learning and multiple intelligences.

For one thing, both these approaches place the child in the center of the curriculum, thus fulfilling John Dewey's mandate to start with the child so that instruction and learning will be personally meaningful to each child (Dewey, 1997/38).

Of course, this latter point is a direct result of my earlier observation in this article that in Brazilian schools everything European is considered superior to anything that is uniquely Brazilian, Afro-Brazilian, Amerindian, Asian or from other immigrant cultures. And the teacher is viewed as the disseminator of this superior culture to children who are what we in the US used to call culturally deprived.

All children, regardless of their racial and economic backgrounds, need to be viewed as competent, able to learn, and containing within their own cultures and experiences, knowledge that can be used as a foundation for learning (Dewey, 1997/1938).

Finally, in the United States the federal IDEA law requires all schools that use public tax funds (local, state and /or federal) to teach children with a variety of disabilities, including students with an array of learning disabilities.

This federal act also requires that these children learn with non-disabled children in regular classrooms, to the extent possible to meet their own individual educational needs (Gargiulo & Kilgo, 2005). Teachers are taught how to differentiate their lessons and instruction to meet the individual needs of children with disabilities in their classrooms.

Conclusion

Racism in Brazilian public schools needs to be addressed through a variety of approaches. While it is not recommended that Brazil's educational establishment automatically adopt approaches used to eliminate racism in American schools, the ideas and methods used in public schools in the US provide hope and suggestions that can be adapted to address Brazil's unique needs.

As a result of the multicultural education movement in American schools, the cultures, histories, arts and biographies of all the people who make up its population are integrated into the curricular content and instructional materials. Teachers are trained on methods to empower and support non-European students, and a variety of teaching methods are used to maximize the learning of all children, including children with a variety of disabilities.

While the American system of financing public schools does not fund all schools equally, attempts are being made to equalize funding, with federal money being targeted to low-income schools and low-income children in programs such as Head Start.

Finally, unlike the gatekeeper function of the vestibular in Brazil, which effectively prevents poor children from attending programs of higher education, the United States provides a vast amount of choices avenues for students to attend college. Any student in the United States can go to college if they so desire.

References

Bandura, A. (1986). Social foundations of thought and action: A social cognitive theory. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall. 

Banks, J.A., & Banks, C. A. M. (2004)(Eds.). Multicultural Education: Issues and Perspectives. (5th ed.). Hoboken, NJ: John Wiley and Sons, Inc.

Dewey, J. (1997/1936). Education and experience. New York: Simon and Schuster.

Gardner, H. (1983). Frames of mind: The theory of multiple intelligences. New York: Basic Books.

Gargiulo, R., & Kilgo, J. (2005). Young children with special needs (Rev. ed.). Clifton Park, NJ: International Thompson.

Nieto, S. (2004). Affirming diversity: The sociopolitical context of multicultural education. (4th ed.). Boston, MA: Allyn and Bacon.

Piaget, J. (1963/1936). The origins of intelligence in children. New York, NY: Norton.

Paul, S. L., & Ferreira, S. L. (2005, May 26). Interpreting children's drawings using the sociological perspective. Presentation given at Universidade Federal de Uberlândia, Uberlândia, MG, Brazil.

Vygotsky, L. (1978). Mind in society: The development of higher mental processes. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press.

Wardle, F. (1999). Children of mixed race: No longer invisible. Educational Leadership 57 (4), 68-71.

Wardle, F. (2005a). Racism in Brazilian schools: Notes from Brazil. New People Magazine. Retrieved Oct 10th from http://newpeoplemagazine.com/

Wardle, F. (2005b). Trip Report. Washington, DC: Partners of the Americas.

Wardle, F. (2005c). Brazilian public schools. Notes from Brazil. New People Magazine. Retrieved Oct 10th from http://www.newpeoplemagazine.com/

Wardle, F., & Cruz-Janzen, M. I. (2004). Meeting the needs of multiethnic and multiracial children in schools. Boston, MA: Allyn & Bacon.

Williams, K. (2006). Mark one or more. Civil Rights in multiracial America. Ann Arbor, MI: The University of Michigan Press.

York, S. (2003). Roots and wings. Affirming culture in early childhood programs. (Rev. ed.). Saint Paul, MN: Redleaf Press.

Francis Wardle has a Ph.D. in Education (University of Kansas). He has been a Head Start director, education director of Children's World Learning Centers (a national childcare and education corporation), a teacher, and a program director for Big Brothers & Sisters. Currently Dr. Wardle teaches for the University of Phoenix (online) and Red Rocks Community College (Denver). He has published four college textbooks and over 300 articles in a variety of educational magazines and journals. Research for this article was partially supported by Partners of the Americans.



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Comments (212)Add Comment
...
written by João da Silva, March 04, 2008
I would like to congratulate Dr.Wardle for this excellent article.It is a must read for scholars like Senator Buarque who constantly and tirelessly campaign for better and easily accessible education to all.

It would be very interesting to receive comments of our distinguished fellow Brazilian bloggers like Ricardo Amaral, "A Brazilian" and several others who have studied both in Brazilian and foreign educational institutions.
Ha….
written by ..., March 04, 2008
That’s a first, Americans teaching others about racial relations. This is the essence of hypocrisy, purely and simple.

Costinha
...
written by dnbaiacu, March 04, 2008
It is really that simple.. So nothing is going to change. This is a national and global circumstances. You choose the 'have' and choose the "have nots'. Color-coding just makes it easy. No society with this system is going to educate the "masses" well. Too many people will qualify to compete for limited resources. Until selfishness and greed is eliminated countries will always have these issues. The U.S model of education still leaves its inner city population of youth with minimal funds for a good education. It is no different from Brasil.. Just that the U.S has more money to distribute. Minorities still end up experiencing the same disparities.
It becomes silly to hope that this will change . The poor are locked out deliberately.. Fortunately though ,, being "relatively" ( because it is all relative) poor materially , doesn't mean that you don't have to live a quality life. An "education" on 'that" is available to all. You have to want it. This is the only way out of misery for the materially poor. Don't count on the system to change.
I just wish whoever wrote this article reads these blogs.
A racist society
written by adrianerik, March 05, 2008
Read these blogs for what? You hope that the two, juvenile, immature, recactionary comments above should be regarded above the content of the article.

America is, in many areas, in a good position to advise others of racial relations. Just as Germany is in a good position to advise other how to protect a Jewish minority. Just as Japan is in a position to advise others how to build a non-militaritic society.

They were sick societies THAT DIAGNOSED THEMSELVES and are seeking, with many levels of success to heal themselves.

And Brazil....?

The article is very good. America which had huge racial problems is light years ahead of Brazil in addressing the problem. To begin to find a cure for a disease one must first diagnose it. There seems to be a collective conscience in Brazil to avoid this type of diagnosis. It reminds me the research done by Folha do Sao Paulo where 10% of Brazilians considered themselves racist but when a series of questions were asked about racial attitudes more than 80% are racists. (with no apologies to that amateur piece of work by Ali Kamel NAO SOMOS RACISTAS). The author identifies several areas and the American system of financing education was not one of his recommendations.

The federal government does not control American education. That is the function of 50 (51) including D.C. separate school boards. Each of which sets their own state standards. They also have their own formulas for financing, which, as the author states, depends much upon local taxes. Inner city funding problems are primarily a function of a decreasing tax base as the population shifts out of the older cities for the southwest and south. It is not someting endemic to the U.S. Educational system (which does not exist). Urban cities such as Philadelphia and New York have school populations that are larger than the population of entire American states. So urban financial solutions are slow to implement. The Federal government can 'try' to influence education by offering funds with strings attached which the various state boards can accept or not accept.

It is extremely naive to say that "all' a child has to do is 'want' an education and they can get it. That indicates NO understanding of the Brazilian educational system.

I would expect that whites who THINK that they are not the products of white supremacist socialization would have issues with the essential point of this article. That's too bad. An educational system that socializes a multi-color society of children with the myth that whites are the gods and goddesses of the universe is a dysfunctional educational system. That a white supremacist televison station such as O Globo supplements this education with 80 to 90% of its novelas depicting actors who are phenotypically "bem brancos" only complicates the situation. My friend in Rio has a beautiful neice with a head full of heavenly curly black hair. When she brought her neice a doll baby with black hair, the little girl (5 years old) cried. They exchanged the doll for one with blonde hair (the exact same doll) and she accepted that doll.

The author of the article stated that Brazilians should not 'imitate' American solutions but a sick society with the same racist infection should begin to diagnose itself and learn from what others have done to cure themselves. To insist that you are well, while snot is dripping from your nose, is the true hypocrisy.
ARIAN-ERIK
written by ..., March 05, 2008
How do you find so many words to describe so little?

Costa
American Hero?
written by SWF, March 05, 2008
Look at this sick sob:

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/43462/9fb16ab3/us_soldaat_gooit_puppy.html

Worse of all, he probably will go unpunished and get a medal.

SWF
...
written by adrianerik, March 05, 2008
Or is it... "so little I WANT t hear?"

But you're right. For those segments of Brazilian society (or any society) that prefer to generalize and dismiss entire societies with labels and derogatives...'serious analysis' becomes an oxymoron. Superfluous. Societal solutions(?) become one dimensional - more electrified walls and a blind eye to masked exterminators pumping bullets into the heads of teenagers.

"feel free to think!"
written by adrianerik, March 05, 2008
Or is it... "so little I WANT t hear?"

But you're right. For those segments of Brazilian society (or any society) that prefer to generalize and dismiss entire societies with labels and derogatives...'serious analysis' becomes an oxymoron. Superfluous. Societal solutions(?) become one dimensional - more electrified walls and a blind eye to masked exterminators pumping bullets into the heads of teenagers. Placing a bandaid over skin cancer.


"feel free to think!"
written by adrianerik, March 05, 2008
Or is it... "so little I WANT t hear?"

But you're right. For those segments of Brazilian society (or any society) that prefer to generalize and dismiss entire societies with labels and derogatives...'serious analysis' becomes an oxymoron. Superfluous. Societal solutions(?) become one dimensional - more electrified walls and a blind eye to masked exterminators pumping bullets into the heads of teenagers. Placing a bandaid over skin cancer.


Yet another myopic American...
written by A Brazilian, March 05, 2008
I believe Brazil is light years ahead of the Disunited States of America and their ethnical ghettos. We are so ahead that the Americans themselves can't imagine a society without designations such "people of color" to describe "those who are not like us". Isn't "white" a color in the US? You are out of your mind. But I have a few questions for Mr. Wardle:

- Why do you associate judgements of value to people's colors? This is what strikes me as the utmost hipocrisy. You have just pointed out, with your own words, that you consider "them" to be different than you, so much that they "need" a special kind of education to build "their identity". If you do associate values to someone's color you are being racist, it doesn't matter if it is a good value or a bad value.

Which sentence is the racist one: "All blacks are intelligent" or "All blacks are dumb"? Both are racist, because you are making a judgement based on how the person looks. I have a piece of advice to American whites, "racism" is not measured by the quantity of good things you say about others. By saying good things, like in the first sentence above, in the hope of portraying everybody as "equally capable" you are just making yourself a racist! Do you want not to be racist? Then do nothing, say nothing and continue with your life.

- Wouldn't it be the institutionalization of racism to teach children to associate values to races?
- What's your opinion about identity politics and propaganda? Don't you think that teaching kids that they are "different" would be the same as segregating them and that would destroy the possibility of intermingling? Therefore balkanizing the country?
- Being Brazil one country doesn't it make sense to have one Brazilian identity?
- Being the Amerindian and Afro cultures inferior, in the sense that they are prehistoric (no writing system, therefore no science, no literature), doesn't it make sense for us to use the European culture inherited from the Portuguese as a starting point for our own culture? I would rather see physicists and engineers building nanomachines than some "afro culture" in our daily lives.
- Are people equally capable?
- Don't you think that the afro-culture is already way too much overrepresented in Brazil, given that they are only 7% of the population?
- Isn't multicultural politics just a workaround to the inability of intermingling of the anglo-saxon peoples? Therefore instead of actually having to see each other as human beings, they can just express "appraisal" for "proving" they aren't racists.

Let's use our imagination and try to see a future without racism. Don't you think that in future without racism the notion of race would lose importance? Therefore promoting it, either in the form of "identity" or any other euphemism Americans like to use to hide the truth from themselves, is the exact opposite of fighting racism?

We are closer to this future than you, that's for sure. You are blind.
...
written by A Brazilian, March 05, 2008
Talking about race to an American, who is still locked up in this ancient race obsession, is like trying to explain what a cellphone is to a medieval person. They lack the basic understanding to picture in their minds what it is.
Excellent article
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 05, 2008
It is rare to see an American who truly attempts to grapple with these issues in Brazil instead of saying, simply, "You godamned barbarians ought to do what we did and then you won't have any problems."

Wardle's article is thus a refreshing change. It points out many of the reasons why I, as a Brazilian educator, do not support university quotas. The many, proven tactics that Wardle talks about can be implemented without quotas and without a broader view of what affirmative action can be, quotas won't resolve our difficulties anyway.

However, Francis...

Of my many observations, one that sticks with me the strongest is that the poorer the school, the more children of color attend; the wealthier the schools (private and federal schools) the lighter the skin of the children who attend (Wardle, 2005b). Thus, in Brazil, race and income are very closely linked.


...this isn't an observation that is limited to Brazil, alone.
Social Reality vs Theory
written by adrianerik, March 05, 2008
@a brazilian - You would find a huge segment of the American population who would agree with you.The new tactic of the right wing, frustrated in their blatant racism, is to appeal to some amorphous, vague "western culture". Of coure, its politically correct to imply racial superiority so now the tactic is "cultural superiority". It works, if just as you did, you begin to apply culture to what you say doesn't exist race -- "afro culture" "amerindian culture". In social application, a hierarchy is established, which strangely, follows racist hierarchies, despite it being based upon 'culture'.

And yes, you will have difficutly conversing with many Americans who, familiar with Brazilian society sees a stratification that "walks like racism, talks like racism, smells like racism, leaves the same devastation as racism" but is really a "racial democracy".

Because 'race' is socially defined, then a 'racist' system (which in the United Nations definition means the a system developed upon a race being SUPERIOR to another race as opposed to the scientific definition that means "any belief in a race-based behaviour)..a racist system can morph into many forms. Bi-polar like the United States. Or multi polars, like Brazil. They each do their dirty jobs effectively.

Racism is tied up in cultural institution. It would be wise for Brazilians to know exactly how racism infects a society than to suggest that "doing nothing" is the most 'color-blind' route to take. To the contrary, it is the most effective assurance that racism will continue. The supposed privileged position (mental or real) that racism imbues into whatever racial group thinks that they are superior is not ceded without a demand. Privilege rationalizes its position. It rarely abolishes the rationale for their status.

A one country - one identity goal is not something admirable when when members of a society have to shed parts of themselves, or limit themselves to conform to dictates of this identity.
Beyond that, it's simply bullcrap.
...
written by João da Silva, March 05, 2008
Before I comment further, I would like to invite some South African bloggers (if any) to tell us how the quality and accessibility of education during and after the "Apartheid".

To: "A Brazilian", "Costa", et all: The author is a Brit, living in U.S. I am yet to discover the nationalities of "adrianerik" and my old friend "dnbaiacu". dnbaiacu has made some interesting comments in other threads and he has points.

btw, I did NOT expect the author or the commentators to assume that the Brazilian Public Educational System is discriminating against the blacks. My point is that it discriminates against ALL the races that do not have money to pay for the cursinho for the vestibular for their kids to get into a decent university. May be I am wrong and I stand corrected if I am.

As for the narration of the story of the niece of the friend of "adrianerik": If I she was my niece, I would have given her a tongue lashing (gently) and impressed her the importance of beauty and brain power, regardless of the skin (or hair) color.However, I must agree with "adrianerik" that the "Rede Globo" and other networks do broadcast only crap of no educational value.
Identity politics by any other name are still identity politics
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 05, 2008
A Brazilian says...
Being Brazil one country doesn't it make sense to have one Brazilian identity?


Y'know, I was actually grooving on your critique of the politics of identity and then you have to go say something stupid like that.

It makes no difference WHAT institutionalized identity you teach: they are all lies and shams. So when you eschew ethnic identity for a singular and cohesive national identity, then what, exactly, is the gain, A Brazilian?

Instead of critiquing identity politics, you seem in fact to be making the argument that the wrong kind of identity politics are being taught.

Frankly, I can't see what the teaching of a single, national, unified identity would bring to Brazil that's worth anything. The idea itself is redolent of fascism. All you'd be doing is exchanging one sort of determinist, reductionist bulls**t for another. Ultimately, all identity politics - national or ethnic - is based on the attempt to transform myth and lies into naturalized "fact".

Being the Amerindian and Afro cultures inferior, in the sense that they are prehistoric (no writing system, therefore no science, no literature), doesn't it make sense for us to use the European culture inherited from the Portuguese as a starting point for our own culture? I would rather see physicists and engineers building nanomachines than some "afro culture" in our daily lives.


And here we come to the real nut of your problem, don't we?

I frankly don't see why you think the sort of brutal, ignorant ethnocentrism which you preach is superior to racism, A Brazilian. If it's true that there's no scientific basis to determine whether one race is better than another (or even, in fact, if race exists), it's equally true that there's no scientific basis to determine whether one culture is superior to another. And culture itself is as much a historical and political construct as "race". There's no real proof that it exists. It CERTAINLY doesn't exist in the stullified, petrified, lego-block sense which your comments above indicate.

"African culture", scientifically speaking, is anything that African people do, A Brazilian. I'll let you in on a little secret: Africans read and write books. I'll let you in on another little secret: Northern Europeans didn't invite reading and writing. Literacy is a transhuman cultural artefact and - while it has occurred in some places later than others - it cannot be said, in any way shape or form, to be particular to one or another culture: or even to a SET of cultures.

There were, after all, African and Native American cultures which invented their own forms of writing. And almost ALL existing African and Native American cultures I know of today are literate. Meanwhile, there are European cultures which have been highly illiterate in historical times. By your reducto ad absurdam logic, we should all learn Babylonian culture. After all, they apparently invented reading and writing before any other people on record.

Your comments reveal more about your own personal prejudices than they do about Brazil or the U.S., A Brazilian. Methinks you're simply another post-modern Green Shirt, talking alone at nights to your Plínio Salgado poster and shouting "Anauhé!" into the void. You're as anti-scientific and as politically motivated as the ethnonationalists you spurn. At least, however, they have the good grace to make their true politics plain, instaed of trying to hide them behind pseudo-intellectual hypocrisy.

Tell the truth, A Brazilian:...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 05, 2008
All this bulls**t you spout is simply overcompensation for your own feelings of inferiority.

What I love about guys like you is that no matter how religiously you spout your neo-fascist, euro-supremacist dogma, you will never be accepted as "white" or "european" by anyone you feel who matters simply because you were born in Brazil.

Posting screeds of bulls**t day after day on this site is never going to change that, A Brazilian. smilies/grin.gif
...
written by João da Silva, March 05, 2008
Wardle's article is thus a refreshing change. It points out many of the reasons why I, as a Brazilian educator, do not support university quotas.


I am not an educator, but do not support university quotas either!
" A Brazilian Must Have Wanted To Get Reaction"
written by dnbaiacu, March 06, 2008
To "A Brazilian".. I am really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. And I hope you are enjoying this and laughing. smilies/smiley.gif. You sound like you actually believe the myths that Brasil promotes , or has promoted.. That racism doesn''t exist. You also revealed a lack of knowledge on a variety of subjects. For example, certain races and their history with writing. I don't have time to go there with you. But just remember something basic.. As some populations continued their migration "away" from Mesapotamia , it stands to reason that the last to reach the furthest distances on any of the continents would take longer to involve themselves with writing , and that is if they decided it was a priority for their existence. Sumerians, pre-flood.. and Egyptians , post flood were "writing..... I'm finished with this..

At the end of the day it is all about money. And this "alone" controls who gets educated the best. This is on an international, national and statewide level anywhere and everywhere in the world. It is simply about distribution of wealth..

Joao,, thank you for the compliment. And your input was refreshing. And everyone that responded to "A Brazilian" had very good points.

By the way , I am bi-national.. Half afro-brazilian and half afro-american. Born in the U.S , but I have traveled back and forth since childhood.. And I have lived in Brasil in Salvador/Island of Itaparica for a 3yr stint. I now travel back and forth with the intent to move back to Bahia permanently this year. Everything Dr. Wardle wrote was correct. But as long as humans continue to "dominate" one another on any level , these disparities willl continue to exist. The U.S model is just a better "financed" model which allows the disadvantaged more of an oppurtunity to overcome great odds. And this , if you just start with the fact that there are great libraries in every major city. There is greater access,, due to money, to higher educational oppurtunities. This , coupled with motivation "AT HOME" can give ANY child a greater chance.
Brasil has "less money" overall to work with . And probably as a consequence has not made the overall education of the mass majority a priority. And why?.....When it is easier , albeit temporarily , to keep the masses ignorant , so as to be better controlled by the selfish , "self-proclaimed" elite.
Brasil is "dominated" by other more affluent countries. So naturally , the "elite of Brasil " are going to have their fun dominating others within its boundaries. Every society has this issue.. It is a HUMAN issue.

Fortunately ones "education' and what it can become can be greatly influenced by upbringing. Someone from a poor family has to decide they want more . And develop the love of learning on an academic level and pass this on to the next generation. At some point in the history of that family someone WILL prosper. I have darker skinned relatives in Brasil who are very educated. And they continue to "attract" the oppurtunities that help them to stay on an upwardly mobile path. It all starts with ridding oneself of a poor mans mentality. EVERY society started off with meager resources educationally and otherwise. Most cultures have borrowed ideas from other cultures and expanded and capitilized on them.
Nothing will change in Brasil in respect to education until the powers that be "want" the masses educated. And of course that would not come without a price.

Why would you teach your slaves??? Please , does anyone think anything has changed?

Jesus said,, " the poor will always be with you". (John 12:smilies/cool.gif But thank God that the very book that statement comes from is the most widely distributed book on this planet. Churches are everywhere . And if you just have the desire to read that book alone.. that is a start to educating yourself , if only to read. And you take it from there. The possibilities are endless from there ,even if the results are seen tangibly many generations later.

Simply put , no one should depend on the State to be responsible for the education of their children. This is the true error.

But it is also unfortunate the degree that Brasil downplays the importance of reading.. It appears almost deliberate.. I have seen the statistics on the overall lack of bookstores and libraries in the whole country. And the prices of books and newspapers are absurd!! It is truly a fight to be knowledgeable in Brazil in general. It is sad.. Principally because it appears to be a deliberate conspiracy against the general public. Books should not be that difficult to access. Will this change? No . Not without funding.

Again,,why educate your slaves.? Of course the little black niece cried about the black doll. She doesn't want identify with the slave. Even if that slave looks like her.
Her mind can only be freed by a "proper" education. One Brasil,, at this point , is not willing to pay for.
Thaddeus
written by A Brazilian, March 06, 2008
It makes no difference WHAT institutionalized identity you teach: they are all lies and shams. So when you eschew ethnic identity for a singular and cohesive national identity, then what, exactly, is the gain, A Brazilian?


The gain: living in a country without worrying about some subcountries in it claiming independence (balkanization); common values (good christian ones); trust; a foundation for something greater. This is not social engineering, this is just describing things as they are. Some Indian tribes had alphabets and science, such as Astronomy, but none of them were in Brazil. The Brazilian Indians were hunter-gatherers. Have you ever asked yourself why Brazil doesn't have any ancient ruins? Our Indians weren't civilization builders. Some Africans that were brought here had education, but the ones that actually knew how to write and read were Muslims from the North Africa. So "their culture" wasn't exactly African.

The only thing that holds the USA together is that each ethnical ghetto believes that it is in their best interest to participate in this idea called "USA", in order words, prosperity. They believe they have more to gain there than anywhere else. If, by any chance, something really bad happens the USA would disintegrate quickly. Brazil, on the other hand, has survived many hardships that would make Americans wish to kill each other.

If it's true that there's no scientific basis to determine whether one race is better than another (or even, in fact, if race exists), it's equally true that there's no scientific basis to determine whether one culture is superior to another. And culture itself is as much a historical and political construct as "race".


I disagree. The notion of race was a scientific fact until not long ago and it is fundamentally different from culture. Unlike race we can measure which culture is superior by seeing their scientific and technological achievements.

Amerindians and Africans had their own "traditions" and "religions", but who cares? So did the Greek, and look now! All those gods are dead. Zeus? f**k Zeus. What always moved the Earth? Technology. Empires arose and fell because of it.

Do you think they are all equal? Then let's make a deal, give us the aerospace technology and we give you carnaval. Isn't it fair? smilies/smiley.gif

"African culture", scientifically speaking, is anything that African people do, A Brazilian. I'll let you in on a little secret: Africans read and write books. I'll let you in on another little secret: Northern Europeans didn't invite reading and writing. Literacy is a transhuman cultural artefact and - while it has occurred in some places later than others - it cannot be said, in any way shape or form, to be particular to one or another culture: or even to a SET of cultures.


They didn't invent reading, but they happen to be the most proeminent in the Western world at this moment, and since this is the moment we are living on this Earth, then that's the moment most important for us. Scientific and technological advancements can be said to be particular to one culture or another, those are the ones that we care about.

But you are right in a way, culture can't be limited to a group. That's why the "identity" crappy notion of Americans is destructive, because it limits certain groups like the so called "Afro-americans" or "Latinos" to certain pre-approved behavior, way of living and thinking, etc, and that could make them not to see the big picture. They could learn a lot from other cultures. If I see something I like in japanese culture, for example, I see no problem in incorporating it, and that's the idea. If you segregate people in groups because they are "different" and need "special education" in order to build "their identities" then you will inevitably limit their horizons.

Another thing, the very idea of "models" that look like you is ludicrous. Do you mean that only a jew could ever identify himself with Jesus, just because Jesus happened to be a jew? Or only Arabians identify themselves with Mohammed? This thinking is so small that makes me sad that people even consider it.

By your reducto ad absurdam logic, we should all learn Babylonian culture.


It is reductio ad absurdum, and we did learn from the Babylonians, like, for example, the 24 hour day. But they are gone. Let's worry about the future.
...
written by Charles Scott, March 06, 2008
Excellent article. Some of you guys espescially "the Brazillian " are misguided. The author of this article is 100% correct. Despite the vitriol you spew against the United States. The bottom line is this, you probably wish you were American. From a person whose skin color classifies him as a member of the lower rung of society in Brazil. I can proudly tell you this. The U.S. of A is the greatest country on earth. I am not putting you down, but until you admit you have racial problems, you will not be able to become a first world nation
Generalizations kill discourse
written by adrianerik, March 06, 2008
If "being American" means having access to the resources, educational and economic opportunities in America then I would agree wtih you. If "being American" means imitating perceived American "behaviour" then I disagree.

It is a discussion killer to make absolute comparisons of societies, unless you are comparing absolutes such as land size and population figures. The United States (my country) is not THE model for other countries to slavishly imiate. Neither is it the home of the anti-christ for other countries to blindly reject. Blindly running TOWARDS something or blindly running AWAY from something is still "running blindly". So much of these blogs seem to fall into either of the two categories.
The little girl
written by adrianerik, March 06, 2008
The story about the little girl is true. They live in Ilha do Governador. It's interesting to note that some think that the little girl is black (and was rejecting a 'black' doll). She is not. She is white (Brazilian white). Her hair is black. (she actually looks a lot like Shirley Temple). She is an absolutely gorgeous little girl. However she lives in a household where two aunts strain to keep their black hair dyed blonde. Where another aunt (the one who brought the doll) has had her cute little button nose, cut and re-shaped to be more aquiline. She is the darkest in this family. (Brazil would call her morena) In America, she was stopped in the airport and a person said she was the most beautiful women they had ever seen. In Brazil, there are members of her family who insult her by calling her 'preta'. They rub their fingers along their white arms and point at her and laugh. I've seen her cry because of this.

The Brazilian scholar and activist, Abdias Nascimento, wrote a play several decades about a successful black Brazilian and the pressure he feels to reject all things 'black' in his life to be a 'real' Brazilian.

Many of my white friends from Canada and Europe (females) are shocked when they go to mostly white clubs in Brazil and listen to the unbridled racism falling from the lips of white Brazilians, many of them studying law.

Racism, cultural hegemony, white supremacy, brancura, enbranqueization are varying manifestations of the same disease that affects all color ranges in society.

It's funny. When the television novela NORDESTINA opens, it pans across a scene of a 'typical' nordestino small city. The streets are full of people, typically 'mixed'. Suddenly, from a wide-angle view a woman, with milky skin who looks like she just stepped off the boat from Europe, enters the scene. The camers zooms in on her. Then the novela title. NORDESTINA!

There is no shame at O Globo!

BACK TO COLOR
written by Forrest Allen Brown, March 06, 2008
not money .
name
or who you know

just back to the bosses taking the money for themselves , and not paying the teachers.
the teachers being paid even if they dont show up for work .

according to blacks , latins , asians , and the other tribes of earth
only whites can be RACISTS.

Talking about generalizations...
written by A Brazilian, March 06, 2008
In Brazil, there are members of her family who insult her by calling her 'preta'. They rub their fingers along their white arms and point at her and laugh. I've seen her cry because of this.


This is bulls**t. The word "preta" ou "preto" is a slang for "honey". If that family use it in a racial manner then they are dysfunctional, not Brazil.

This type of "A cousin of a friend of a friend of mine told that..." is the kind of lame argument that is brought up in sites like these to "prove" something about Brazil. Try again.
You Learn A LOT From These Blogs
written by dnbaiacu, March 06, 2008
Long story short.. There will be no equality in education until governments "of ANY nation" allow all of it's citizens a quality education. This will only happen in a perfect world. For now those with the best access to knowledge will maintain the power. Its always been that way.. And this transcends ,racial , cultural and national lines.

I was nice to "A Brazilian" clearing up some of his opinions. He or she deserves an A for effort. We are all thinking on this blog if nothing else. The counter arguments to "A Brazilian" are exellent.

In support of "A Brazilian" , I think his point is that there should be an effort on the part of the larger consciousness not to put emphasis on race to begin with.. Almost saying that if we "imagine" that it doesn't exist or that it is not an issue then the problem would take care of itself. No notion of race. No racial inequality issues.
The problem is most of "any" race won't think that way.. Not at this point in mans history.

Joao.. Affirmative action with its use of quotas has been the only way minorities have been given an oppurtunity to enter the middle class and upward mobility at large. People have a tendency to take care of , "hire and educate" their OWN. This is just a sorry fact of human nature at this point. Why hire a stranger when you can hire your cousin?
Quotas worked successfully in the U.S exactly because of the overt racism that has always existed there. 1/8 part negro descent gave one second class citizenship. It became very easy to determine who was going to given oppurtunity or not.

The quota won't have much success if any in Brasil simply because the concept of race is ambiguous there. The concept of who is negro and lacking oppurtunity is not as systematic as it is in the U.S . There is no sure way of making sure that those who stand to benefit the most from such a program aren't cut out of the loop by whiter looking individuals claiming negro blood ( of course when it is to their advantage) who want to benefit from "quotas" also. I wouldn't agree with a quota system in Brasil either. It's a system that only works wtih the longstanding "American" concept of race.

Brasil has to want to give ALL of its citizens a quality education. And this costs money.
An educated person would understand the folly in most of "A Braziilians" comments. An "educated" person would not maintain a poor mans mentality or a slave mentality. It was the economic prosperity of the U.S in general that allowed many of its oppressed minorities to overcome obstacles. Nothing more nothing less. And companies and schools had to be "FORCED" to admit negros in their institutions otherwise they would have NEVER been allowed the oppurtunity. Again,, why hire or educate a stranger as opposed to your cousin?
Smart governments know anyway that you can only hold people down for so long. History has shown us this. There will always be a revolution against injustice at some point. How Brasil is paying for the oppression of its masses is through its crime rates. And its generally exploitive culture. The government overtly exploits citizens. The South exploits the North.. The rich exploit the poor.. And it goes on and on.
Where Brasil decides to tokenly give a little in respect to this issue remains to be seen.
...
written by A Brazilian, March 06, 2008
according to blacks , latins , asians , and the other tribes of earth
only whites can be RACISTS.


...
written by A Brazilian, March 06, 2008
An educated person would understand the folly in most of "A Braziilians" comments.


Like what? The only folly is to believe that all cultures are equal and lock people up in stereotypes that have no future. Now, go shake your ass on Carnaval and wait for a spaceship to fall from the sky. Apparently that's how the "pride" logic works, no study, no learning, just being proud and magically things improve.
"lying eyes"
written by adrianerik, March 06, 2008
@brazilian - No hearsay, my brother. Unfortunately, I am first hand witness to all of this. And more. By the way, there are few Brazilians who can say what Brasil attitudes are. Residents of the same city cannot say what the attitudes are of residents who live blocks away.

@dnbaiacu - good points. Except - am I wrong in discerning the general "that's the way it goes" tone of your post. There ARE activists in Brazil. And despite the david against Goliath scenario they face there are advances and victories of the people confronting the system.Without a population that exposes, accuses, SUGGESTS AND IMPLEMENTS viable alternatives, there is NO democracy. You say a 'revolution at some point'. How does that happen? Not necessarily a revolution but the persistence and growth of 'democratic activists' in Brazil, Brazilians who believe the Brazilian constitution. To reach that-- 'at some point'-- level, it becomes imperative for aware Brazilians today to support those flares of activism and not merely point out where these community initiatives are lacking. Complaining about those who 'DO' without involving themselves is one of my greatest issues with the Brazilian community.

When a social issue is not critical then perhaps there is the luxury of searching for the ideal solution. However, in the development of most societies the 'perfect idea' rarely comes neatly packaged. When a social issue is critical then sometimes anything that is 1% better than the status quo should be supported. My and good buddy T.B. disagree on this but that is the basis for my support of 'cotas' in Brasil.

Does it poke it in the eye the vestibular system? It should (IMHO). Sometimes it's best to allow an issue to keep the entire community at at state of outrage than to allow them to slip back into the sputtering status quo.
Let's Be Productive.. Each One Teach One
written by dnbaiacu, March 06, 2008
Everyone on this blog is obviously intelligent. And it is refreshing to see people responding to an article like this. At least is shows some concern on the issue of education and as it pertains to certain segments of society.
We must admit that the State is not going to change its' fiscal policy towards education anytime soon. So what ideas can we circulate as to how we "are" or can help others in this area in Brasil ( our country of obvious mutual interest). This would make this blog more productive. PLEASE. ! Everyone who has contributed here , including "A Brazilian" , what are you doing to help a poor uneducated Brazilian of ANY shade of color. The State won't fix this ..

To "A Brazilian" has SOMETHING of value to contribute to the variety in stimulation on various levels of the HUMAN mind. It is not about cultures being equal. That implies a cultural standard to be met. Are you suggesting that there is a particular culture that all other cultures should aspire to emulate? . No reply necessary ,please.
Caranval is just as much a contribution as an aerospace program.. Only they are "different " contributions., and to some degree equal wasters of money considering money could be better spent "on this planet' and also not on a five day partyl.

I have poor , illiterate cousins in Bahia . But with all their lack of formal education ANYONE can learn from their advanced and undoubtedly impressive spatial skills under and above water due to their "culture" as fisherman.. Point being ALL cultures have SOMETHING to contribute to the overall well-being and stimulation of the HUMAN RACE.

Education is the interest of this blog.. What ideas can we exchange to help a poor Brazilian who just MAY have a State sponsored low self-esteem issue.?

Yes,, I myself thought the little niece was black...Sorry I assumed that... But the fact that she wasn't further proves the point. The monied "few" will continue to exalt and glorify themselves through the media at the psychological expense of the oppressed masses This won't change on a large scale. So the resulting problems will persist.
...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 06, 2008
I agree that the vestibular system should be scrapped, Adrian. That should be the first step.

I'm against quotas because they are being used as a panaceia which won't make a bit of difference unless other reforms are implemented - and if those reforms ARE implemented, it's doubtfull that we'd need quotas.

After all, the U.S. has been able to increase Black university education levels without recourse to quotas.

I'm in favor of more scholarships and of an admissions policy which takes into consideration a SERIES of characteristics and not just a "one shot takes it all" entrance exam. I think race should be a tie-breaker in this scenario and not a "get in free" ticket.

A Brazilian sez...

The gain: living in a country without worrying about some subcountries in it claiming independence (balkanization); common values (good christian ones); trust; a foundation for something greater. This is not social engineering, this is just describing things as they are.


So you ARE a fascist, in the strict, historical sense of the word.

Interesting.

In the first place, pluralism does not mean balkanization. There is no proof at all that the one leads to the other and plenty of proof that it does not. The U.S., Canada, Switzerland and even Great Britain are all pluralist nations and they are hardly sliding towards disintegration and misery.

Second, "common values" do not necessarily lead to peace, trust, enlightenment,
understanding, or "something greater". The worst wars are almost always civil wars fought between groups who have much more in common with one another in terms of cultural values then not. As to "something greater", the fascism you're apparently promoting as the salvation for all the world's ills got its ass righteously and roundly kicked by the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. - both notriously racuous, ethnically mixed countries.

Sorry, A Brazilian, but that "one nations, standing erect, facing the rising sun" jive is a bunch of humorous hoo-hah to anyone with more than a passing understanding of modern history.

Third, you may coinsider your "Christian" values to be "good". From what I've seen you post here, I have my doubts that your values can, in fact, even be classified as "Christian". Seeing as how there's no proof that a homotopia is any better than a heterotopia, I wonder where you get the balls to suggest that the world would all be hunky-dory if we'd just allow you, A Brazilian, to shove your "superior" values down our collective throats?

Finally, yes, what you are describing is very definitely SOCIAL ENGINEERING in the strictest sense of the term. Unlike the "communists" and "racists" you oppose, however, you simply don't have the honesty to admit that that's what you're talking about.

...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 06, 2008
You also don't know your African and Native American history very well. Why "Muslim Africans" aren't really Africans is a mystery to me. Your "Christian" culture didn't come from Europe, but you obviously have no qualms about considering it to be European. Nor were all - or even most - of the Brazilian native peoples hunter-gatherers. You are REALLY behind the times on paleoanthropological data if you believe that - like 60 years behind the times.

I disagree. The notion of race was a scientific fact until not long ago and it is fundamentally different from culture. Unlike race we can measure which culture is superior by seeing their scientific and technological achievements.


Both are based on a common essentialist and reductionist fallacy that peoples are discreet, homogenous, historically stable, measurable objects. They aren't. And because they aren't, there is no rational and objective way to measure their achievments and superiority. The only way to even ATTEMPT to do so is to make a series of value laden, a priori and essentially arbitrary judgements as to what constitutes a "people", what precisely is an "achievement" and where and when these things occurred, something which you obviously feel compelled to do.

However, there is no consensus, scientific opinion on any of these points. At all. And because of that, A Brazilian, you feel that you can make up whatever the hell you want and call it science. Unfortunately for you, that's not true.

They didn't invent reading, but they happen to be the most proeminent in the Western world at this moment, and since this is the moment we are living on this Earth, then that's the moment most important for us.


Bulls**t.

Your earlier argument was based on the notion that European culture (however that's defined) is "superior" because it "invented and achieved" more than "African". Now, when it's pointed out to you that very few of those achievements you point to are really or simply "European", you go off on another tangent entirely, appealing to contemporaneity and pragmaticism.

But if THAT'S your argument - that things are the way they are now and that's what we need to go by - then know, oh sage, that your original arguments about African illiteracy are so much horse-piss blowing in the wind, for in both the Luso and Anglo speaking sphere, Africans are a HIGHLY literate people today. They are writing some of the best extant literature in both the Portuguese and English languages.

Just because you can't be bothered to read it does not mean its crap. In fact, given the fact that most of your arguments here seem to be based on historical and anthropological errors that a high-school sophmore could point out, the fact that you DON'T know about something is probably a high mark in favor of its relevancy and quality.

Again, A Brazilian, if you're going to make 70 year old arguments which were pioneered by the likes of Benito Mussolini, at least have the guts to come out and claim what you are: a fascist. A post-modern one who's learned to substitute ethnocentric bigotry for classic racism, but a fascist nonetheless.
"Right On! Thaddeus and Adrianerik
written by dnbaiacu, March 06, 2008
I changed my mind.. Yes,, anything 1% better than the status quo should be supported. Excellent writing , both of you. Let's just hope @Brazilian is just kidding because he is not representing well. This is good dialogue..I am very involved in trying to help out in education on a personal level. No hands down approach from me. And I am glad to hear about the activism you speak of Adrianerik.
I am back and forth to Brasil every 2 months. And I give away a new notebook computer each trip to family that would never in a lifetime be able to make that a priority purchase. I also taught a cousin of mine that "was" illiterate how to read Portuguese and I am native "English" speaker. I am "that's the way it goes " in attitude in reference to waiting in vain for the State to reform its priorities as far as education is concerned. Even the U.S has been "dumbing down" its' population. They must keep the majority in chaos and distracted to continue to control. .........Why did I even get on this blog??????
Please everyone.. "EACH ONE ,JUST TEACH AT LEAST ONE".. This is where we make a real contribution.

I need to proofread my own comments smilies/shocked.gif if I ever expect anyone to appreciate them.. sorry.. "To @Brazilian, each "culture" has "something" to contribute to the variety of stimulation on various levels in the HUMAN mind.
dnbaiacu
written by João da Silva, March 06, 2008
I changed my mind..


Please don't do it. You are doing extremely well with your opinions. But in a mixed society like Brazil, what are the criteria to determine that some has is black to get into the quota system? I have traveled to the Nordeste and it was impossible for me to say who was really a black. Here in the South, you find people with dark skin color,but without kinky hair. Sorry, my friend, this quota system is going to cause us lots of problems and the real big money makers are the lawyers!

Coming back to the favorite topic of ours: Is Obama really black? To my knowledge, he is the son of a Kenyan father and a white Kansan lady. His parents and he were given opportunity to educate themselves and be something in life. The same thing applies to your relatives from Bahia who are upward mobile (without the state help). My question is:Are we going to discard "brain Power", because of the color of the skin?

I agree with you when you said that the elite want to keep the masses ignorant.You yourself mentioned about the price of Newspapers, books and lack of libraries in Brasil. Who is going to correct the situation? I think the government should take the initiative and I would not mind seeing my tax money being spent on some concrete projects. btw, I do not put too much faith on the private sector in Brasil.

I think I have said enough for the day and it is your turn to say something

smilies/cheesy.gif
Good read
written by Simpleton, March 06, 2008
Abe the subhuman arises, falls, arises again to spew once more that which it has been stuck on (or stuffed with) for years and gets buried without even the thinnist ray of light finding it's way in to be contemplated in parte. Gotta love folks with personality (multiple?)
CHEGA DE BRIGA GALERA
written by Jussara Lima, March 06, 2008
Pq tudo aqui acaba em briga, em?
Eu preferiria que acabasse em pizza
ou em samba de crioulo doido smilies/grin.gif

baita beijo pra todo mundo daki
amo voces todos smilies/smiley.gif
Joao
written by dnbaiacu, March 07, 2008
I know that it would be a messy situation with the quota system in Brazil. I instinctively know this. And my initial reaction is that it wouldn't work exactly for the reasons you say. But I bacame sympathetic to Adrianeriks "anything 1% better than the status quo should be supported." But I do completely agree with you on your point.
You are right.. the government "should" take the initiative , but until is does the issues being discussed will persist.

Obama being black??? Obama differs from the average American of African descent by having a family history that has no connection with slavery (being a slave that is) in the U.S.
Though as a man of African descent navigating through the system is not as easy a white counterpart.
Obama is the posterboy of choice for the new puppet in the White House. He is a part of everthing this country is made of . Part of the white experience.. The black experience . The immigrant experience. It kind of makes you wonder if he were "groomed " for this all along.

I am not sure of your question about "brain power".. But in the U.S , you can have all the brain power in the world yet prejudice can rear its ugly head at the wrong times. Quotas are important in the U.S. The new myth they attempt to promote here now is that it is an equal playing field. Nothing can be further from the truth. And why this myth is being promoted now is because there is so much more "competition" for the privleged class to contend with now. Minorities who are equally as qualified and outsourcing by many companies to locales overseas is making the pie a lot smaller. Subsequently the clamor that Affirmative Action is "reverse racism".

Trust me on this Joao, without quotas here, I wouldn't have the ability or even the desire to write you as I am now. I would NOT have received the education. My family on my fathers side has benefited from it for years. Access to better jobs and integration in schools. None of this would be possible without "forced integration".
The residual damage from slavery here in respect to race relations runs long and deep.
I've heard the argument that Brazils overall concept on race relations is different due to the fact that Portuguese colonists didn't bring thier women and miscegenation was not frowned upon but encouraged. Whereas in the U.S the English brought their women and any "mixing" with the slave women was a slave row secret. Real emotional bonds with owners was prohibited and in no way necessarily advantageous. Whereas in Brazil the attitude towards "mixing" may have been different. Resulting in an obviously more casual view about "race" in Brazil today.

Again , is Obama black? Politically speaking ,, for sure. Socially ,,? In reference to other African Amercans,,, it is in question in some segments. But overall the black population has adopted him to represent them . At the end of the day all that matters is that he looks like one of us, and would be treated like any one of us despite his democratic nomination for president.
Is Obama black enough?
written by Macunaima, March 07, 2008
Ah, but is Oblack 'bama enough? There's a real tough question that needs to be answered.

Black folks aren't going to necessarily vote for his ass just because it's black.
Macunaima
written by dnbaiacu, March 07, 2008
Black people are already voting for him in record numbers... Where are you ? ( I'm a conscientious NON VOTER)
Black Enough?
written by dnbaiacu, March 07, 2008
It appears that Obama is Black Enough for the "entity" behind him having a history making fund raising campaign. So politically ,,for the powers that be , he "is" black enough. Perfect for his platform that touts being "all inclusive". Half black, half white, with immigrant orgins.
If he were what some want to call the "real deal" , I doubt that he would have made it this far in his campaign. He's just "NOT " THAT" black to serve the intents and purposes of the money making machine behind him.
Follow the money. .. This is no "we have overcome" situation. Obama is being pimped either as a distraction or fall guy for the difficulties ahead or both. This kind of investment and show isn't being made for nothing. Worse case scenario is that he is being set up to lose against McCain and some contrived or provoked( to be fair) terrorist attack on U.S soil will take place "conveniently for the actual election , to either cause "no election" or sway public opinion to the more "experienced" McCain and republican side of the war issue.
Troops , in or out of Iraq is and will be a mess. . Act II ,WWIII. . All nations against scape goat "terrorists" of all persuasions.
I just want to know does Obama himself know just how much he is being used. ? Or is this just a case of participating in anything to make history. Black vanity will continue to be used against blacks for as long as we refuse to wake up to the games. ie, Condaleeza Rice. I'm sick of it already.
Black voters are coming out in record numbers naturally . So whether he is "Black Enough" by their social standards doesn't appear to make a difference to the vast majority.
We are at a point where it doesn't matter "who" is president now. Presidents don't have enough control over the fiscal policy of the country. If any that matters at all.
Obama could just as well be purple . At the end of the day , the joke is on us!
Proud NON VOTER
...
written by e harmony, March 07, 2008
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, 2008-03-06 18:02:08
Third, you may coinsider your "Christian" values to be "good". From what I've seen you post here, I have my doubts that your values can, in fact, even be classified as "Christian".


A Brazilian may have well intentions - or he may not - it's hard for me to tell 100% of the time because sometimes things he says seems very well intentioned, other times they seem racist or ethnocentric to me. It's difficult for me to really tell because English is not his first language and perhaps other cultural aspects become a hurdle. The same of course applies to me if I'm expressing an opinion to a Brazilian national or anyone of any other nationality but that of the U.S. (however I can only communicate in English so that minimizes my mistakes in trying to communicate my thoughts or idea)

But A Brazilian has some beliefs regarding culture and multiculturalism that are now popular amongst a number of political right-wing peoples. I don't know how this all plays out in Brazil but in the United States being Catholic or Protestant really means little in difference in being "Christian." The term "Christian" or said idea is tossed around now to infer what *politics* you adhere to. Granted Democrats do it as much or more than Republicans but right-wing people have taken to this "Christian" thing to refer to a sort of white-pride wherein the it infers the history of 1400s onward with white people coming to dominate the world socially, militarily, and economically.

I have no problem with Brazilian cultural way of assimilation. I think it's pretty awesome actually. I do have a problem with putting down all West African culture. And Muslim, black, West Africans could read also, it was not just North Africans. In fact there was a case in the United States in the 1800s where a black prince who was Muslim, and could read Arabic, was freed from slavery in the U.S. but upon the U.S. President finding out this guy was not North African, refused to help him free his family. (he created a family while enslaved in the U.S.)

Whether one agrees with adrianerik's propositions or not, he is right that one can not change until they first acknowledge the problem.

(P.S. while Catholic official teaching always acknowledged the humanity of every human regardless of race, it has had a horrible historical record as being a culture of positive and or active change in racial matters. Almost in every case and era the vast majority of Catholics have taken to aligning with the very racist white Protestants. There are some minor figures like De La Casa, but from era to era Protestants have been the wind of change as a collective group or at least as a large cultural movement. Where were the Catholics? Absent as usual. Even the Vatican sided with the Confederacy, expressing convoluted abstract theories to support their position, rather than extending simple human compassion and empathy. At least the Protestants can say they brought about Historically Black Colleges & Universities through "Reconstruction." No doubt it was Catholics supporting the racist Protestants when it came to breaking Reconstruction. H*ll, Boston didn't end segregated schoolings I don't think until the 1970s)

e harmony
written by dnbaiacu, March 08, 2008
Your comments were very much appreciated .. I will assume that you have read at least part of the Bible. Hypocrites, "wolves in sheeps clothing", were prophesied to come. We have been in that era ever since the apostles died off. You may find it comforting to know that the complete and utter destruction of false religion is on the horizon.

15 And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. 16 And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire. 17 For God put [it] into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out [their] one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished. 18 And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” Revelation 17:15-18

Yes , God himself will see to the destruction of this lying Satanic enterprise of religion. It all unfolds graphically in chapter 18 of Revelation. Substitute the symbol of the Whore Bablyon for the world empire of religion and do the math. .Only after this event will humans be on their way to true freedom. So much bloodshed.. So many lies. Gone for good!
Most irreprehensible is in fact the Catholic church which claims to worship the God of the Bible. The same enterprise that prohibited even reading the bible and having it translated out of the long dead Latin language. Talk about oppression! Unfortunately this is the very religious persuasion that dominates Brasil . And is basically the root of most of its problems. The spiritual culture promotes mass ignorance . Passivity is promoted. Few question anything. So as a whole it continues to get "screwed" by Protestant countries, (none the better, to say the least ). Naturally following male dominating female instinctive rules action.
This is why I suspect there will never be a full scale civil-rights movement in Brasil . Due to the dominance of Catholocism and syncretism , the cultural pysche for such a movement just isn't there. When you put more emphasis on "Mary" and the "Godess of the Sea, what do you expect. ? How can you take on a proactive male consciousness praying to a female diety???? Duh??? This and this alone is probably about 90% of Latin Americas subjugation issues in reference Europe and the U.S.

Thanks for bringing out some TRUTH!
...
written by e harmony, March 08, 2008
e harmony
written by dnbaiacu, 2008-03-08 00:54:55

Due to the dominance of Catholocism and syncretism , the cultural pysche for such a movement just isn't there. When you put more emphasis on "Mary" and the "Godess of the Sea, what do you expect. ? How can you take on a proactive male consciousness praying to a female diety???? Duh??? This and this alone is probably about 90% of Latin Americas subjugation issues in reference Europe and the U.S.

Thanks for bringing out some TRUTH!


dn,

I think you may have read more into what I wrote.

I came up Catholic and it would be very difficult for me to embrace wholly a Christianity without the Virgin Mary. It would be easier perhaps for me to embrace Islam wholly before taking a Christianity that disregards the Holy Mother. I do not find Catholicism in and of itself evil, nor its Priesthood or hierarchy, but men are men, and I'm certainly no angel myself. Catholicism use to lead Europe but in my opinion it went into reactionary mode ever since the so-called "modern era" (roughly dated at 1500) and still has not completely gotten out of that mode of rejecting everything "modern" or "post-modern" and acting as though everything prior to the 1500s was wonderful or golden.

In Catholicisms favor, it ought be said it never favored unrestrained freemarket capitalism like Protestantism did, so that along with the fact early in the industrial revolution it was predominately Catholics who migrated into the industrial cities such as Edinburgh, Munich, and Pittsburgh making up the working class, the Catholic Church (hierarchy wise & laity) supported the "working man's" issues and dignity far more than Protestantism. In fact during those early times Protestants weren't really known to be members of the urban working class - they were usually urban professionals. Of course there were plenty of poor white and black Protestants that were either slaves, sharecroppers, or yahoos in some small town or rural areas (whether these were company coal towns or not). So, Catholic clergy, especially in the United States (where most the Bishops originally actually came out of impoverished immigrant homes - unlike the European peers) had a much stronger connection to the poor industrial works through the 19th century into the mid 20th century. And almost all her intellectuals, be they conservative and or confederates or not, scoffed at the racist Protestants frequent and explicit proposition that black peoples were less than fully human. Catholics viewed slavery like most ancient man did (and they derived their ideals about it from the ancient Romans/Greeks): they accepted peoples humanity but they thought some people just were fated slavery.

New Orleans, until it was fully brought into the U.S. fold culturally around I believe the time of World War I (1914 or so), never had that same level of racial hatred that was found in the likes of Mississippi or Alabama. So, it's not like Catholics were simply horrific. But Catholics be they in Boston, Chicago, Rio de Janeiro, or Mexico City have never really felt they "needed to change" per se on racial things. So, Protestants have been the harbingers of change for the better when it comes to race. And black Protestants like Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth have displayed enormous courage and amazing virtue.

But I might also pint out to you that American Catholicism (USA) is head and above currently, on an intellectual level, above that of most of non-denominational Evangelical Protestantism spreading through the U.S. and Latin America. With the dramatic decline of mainstream Protestantism and generation of American Catholics improving numerically on education, today American Catholics are statistically better educated (on average) than American Protestants. Catholicism and American Catholicism has also led the world - by wide margin gap at that - in the sphere of biomedical ethics. I believe already around the 1940s or so when Protestant or Jew had barely set pen to paper on any ethical theories revolving around biomedical issues... Catholicism had already produce tons of literature on the subject through an enormous amount of case studies at that!
That's CH.C.
written by ..., March 08, 2008
dnbaiacu
written by João da Silva, March 08, 2008
Good day DN.

Follow the money. .. This is no "we have overcome" situation. Obama is being pimped either as a distraction or fall guy for the difficulties ahead or both. This kind of investment and show isn't being made for nothing. Worse case scenario is that he is being set up to lose against McCain and some contrived or provoked( to be fair) terrorist attack on U.S soil will take place "conveniently for the actual election , to either cause "no election" or sway public opinion to the more "experienced" McCain and republican side of the war issue.
Troops , in or out of Iraq is and will be a mess. . Act II ,WWIII. . All nations against scape goat "terrorists" of all persuasions.


Very good description of the current world scenario. My bet is on McCain. I hope our other friend Lloyd Cata who is in another thread reads your comments and joins us to enrich our discussions.

Proud NON VOTER


As you know, in Brazil, voting is obligatory and I have heard several friends and relatives complaining about it. I am in favor of it for the simple reason that it is the only weapon the educated middle class has against the abuse of power by the authorities who could be booted out, though it does not function many times due to the manipulation of the uneducated masses by the media. My fear is that if the voting is made NOT obligatory, our middle class will remain at home on the election day and a large majority of ill informed citizens will elect politicians that have commitment only to themselves and not to their electors nor to the NON VOTERS. So what is your reason for being a Non Voter in your country?

As far as I know, Australia is only other country where the voting is (or was) obligatory and the Aussies have the habit of kicking out the politicos that do not perform. If John Miller is reading my comments, I would like to hear his opinion about this issue.
e Harmony
written by dnbaiacu, March 08, 2008
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I really don't want to list many scriptures on how "creation" shouldn't be venerated but the "Creator" reserves the right to be worshipped.. This is according to the Bible which the Catholic faith claims to ascribe to.
I just wanted to point out that this idolization of Mary which goes against Bible teaching is what would take a sincere person that wants to worship God (again according to the Bible) off course. Therefore subjecting that individual to a host of deceptions in other "spiritual" areas. And wouldn't you agree that it is "spirituality" based on Truth is what the poor need most of all? Worshipping seas , suns , rivers , trees.. Even people.. We are so much bigger than this. We are created in Gods image. This is the beauty of Truth found in the Light of the Bible. Praying to humans , forces of nature , animals, just take us off course from what we were meant to be. Praying to something equal or beneath us makes no spiritual sense if we are to elevate our consciousness.
The Catholic church has a history of keeping the Bible away from the laity class. Prohibiting reading the Bible and keeping it in Latin. Is it any wonder that we see the rotten fruits of its sanctioning, sponsoring and participating in some of the worse atrocities in history.
One small example about hiding Truth. The Bible does not condemn the use of contraceptives. Something that was condemned by the Church for centuries. And conveniently so, because it perpetuates a poor class needed to serve the selfish interests of an elite. But if you don't READ the Bible , you wouldn't know any better. Fortunately people are waking up to this quackery. But unfortunately many are turned off by anything that has to do with religion , including the Bible. THIS is the perfect deception!
Joao
written by dnbaiacu, March 08, 2008
Hello Joao,
I don't vote because I know that the politicaly system is "rigged" globally from the spiritual dimension on down. Have you done the research on secret societies yet? Well to make it a lot easier, the worlds most widely distributed book , the Bible (and not by coincidence) already condemns astrology , divination and the like for guidance. But these are the very things that governments by means of these secret societies have been known to work with in decision making. Its this huge pyramid to an unseen realm.. Do you know that Washington D.C and the Vatican sit in the center of a civil eigineered 5 pointed star? It gets deeper than you can ever imagine if you do the research. The more you find out about this end of it, the more it convinces you that man is against unseen spirit forces that want us all dead. They literally play chess with world governments and bringing all back to a tower of Babel of sorts in opposition to God. The two opposing forces being God and his Son for peace in the world by means of His kingdom and whatever man decides independently of Him to bring peace in the world . Of course the whole time being manipulated knowingly or unknowingly by these evil spirit creatures . That by the "possess" people all the time. We can't deny their existence. You see it all day long in Candomble. This is very real.
Even if I didn't have this bigger picture of things. From a purely scientific/political standpoint the whole "democratic" system is rigged with an outward appearance of being "ran by the people" .. The electoral college system . Then the "delegate" arrangement.. Come on?...Who are they fooling. These "delegates can be bribed at any point. And if that doesn't work they will just throw ballots away like they did in Florida for the Bush election. Bush didn't steal the election "SOMEONE' gave it to him. We just don't know WHO this is.
Being neutral to all of this madness keeps my conscience clean. I can say I trust NONE of IT! Jesus a "good" spirit creature said.,"my kingdom is no part of this world". When Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world if he'd do one act of worship to him, Jesus never denied that the kingdoms of the world weren't Satans' to give. The bible indicates that there are evil angels in designated to different countries. This is all a game of power by mind control. Thank God we all have "CHOICE" on our side. But we must get this type of knowledge to be able to see through all the smoke. Knowledge that I am trying to help e Harmony see the Church has been deliberately hiding.

I don't vote as a position.. Not out of apathy. But if I didn't know any better I would vote for Ron Paul.. He is anti Federal Reserve Bank. Money rules this world to a large degree.
But I know too much.... I like political science and I study the Bible. So now I know too much. But I am glad I can see through all this. Many are bamboozled and apathetic.
There is so much happening this year Joao. It is like this huge show. I am enjoying it and trying to be WISE along the way. It isn't easy . We are up against a lot. Everyone is fighting for PEACE OF MIND.
...
written by e harmony, March 08, 2008
Dn,

I think proper biblical exegesis finds nothing wrong with veneration of the Virgin Mary, after all not only do the authors of the gospels go out of their way to present her as a significant part of their theological story, but Jesus himself is presented as deferring to her at the wedding of canna. Hence, if Jesus (second person of the Trinity) finds his own mother worthy of reverence and regard, surely his disciples are not wrong for following his example. Mary after all is presented as a symbolic representation of the Arc of the Covenant (something I might add ancient Israelites placed high reverence on).

And the Catholic Church claims to follow not just the bible but orthodox belief. The bible as it is found of saying, came from the Church the Church did not come from the bible. (the bible is a canonized compilation of texts - many texts where never chosen [by human discernment] to be put in the "bible"). And the Catholic Church early concern about the individual biblical reading and interpretations - aside from the fact most people where illiterate for thousands of years (a problem both the U.S. and Brazil are not totally free of even in the 21st century) - was that it did not want what has happened to Protestants since the Reformation to happen: 60,000 consequent denominations claiming to properly interpret the bible correctly (all springing from 1 denomination: Lutheranism). Modern science has proven that certain stories in the bible e.g. Genesis... are not true and allegorical anyways.

But... I really don't want to turn this thread into a religious debate.
e Harmony
written by dnbaiacu, March 08, 2008
I don't want to debate either. We all get it figured out along the way in the amount of time we have. And we choose for ourselves. To be informed. And to call things as we see them. How deep one chooses to dig for Truth and apply it with Wisdom will determine how peacefully they can mentally navigate through this chaos. The Bible is not to be debated. It was meant to be "studied" by those who have "chosen" to believe in it. It wasn't written for everyone. Every book has its target audience. The Bible is no different.

eHarmony , You wrote:
P.S. while Catholic official teaching always acknowledged the humanity of every human regardless of race, it has had a horrible historical record as being a culture of positive and or active change in racial matters.

I was just agreeing with you and capatilizing on the fact that "rotten trees produce rotten fruit" Matthew 7:15-20
We can't discount the role religion plays in the human experience. Science shows we're wired for it. Religion and the Bible has been effectively used against people to oppress them. I see that you are very informed and must know this for yourself. So if you chooses to be part of a religion that claims the Bible as its authority it is pertinent to read and study the book for oneself so as not to "remain"confused amongst the over 60,000 Protestant denominations you mentioned exist.
The initial article is about Brasils' education system.
Then "Thaddeus Blanchette " wrote Third, you may coinsider your "Christian" values to be "good". From what I've seen you post here, I have my doubts that your values can, in fact, even be classified as "Christian".
Then you clarified something..
." The term "Christian" or said idea is tossed around now to infer what *politics* you adhere to.

To show that this is the very problem I gave my two cents. It all gets connected at some point. Belief systems and government. There is no way of getting around this. Brasils' education issue is ultimately a political issue. A State either deliberately or apathetically not caring for the education of the majority of its youth on a more equitable scale. And that inevitably becomes a "moral" issue. And you cannot seperate anything considered moral, immoral or amoral without talking about a "belief "system.
So it has become "politically correct " and "polite" NOT to GO THERE . And just maybe THIS IS the problem. We are socialized to "prefer" not to talk about it because it becomes a "sensitive" issue.
I WONDER WHY?..........
Non Voter
written by dnbaiacu, March 09, 2008
Joao,
Good day! In response to your question... I conscientiously do not vote as a stand for neutrality. I know too much now. I love political science and I read the Bible. So my research has led me to understand that the whole global political system is "rigged" from the spiritual realm on down.
Remember we commented on secret societies that permeate the government.? Have you done your research? Well occult societies like these rely heavily on astrology and divination. No wonder the Bible condemns these practices as a source of guidance because one can open oneself up to demonic influences. In this case , governments soliciting info from spirits on how governmental affairs. Evil spirits that want us all dead.
No one should question whether these being of another life form exist. You can see some of their activity any given day of the week at your local Candomble ceremony in Brasil. This is very real. I need not go to blblical references to back up this point. I am just glad of the insight the Bible does give on these spirits objectives with humanity at large. They are highly organized with apparent designations and and assignments in reference to earthly governments . ( Daniel 10:12-14)
Do you know that Washington D.C and The Vatican sit smack in the middle of a street grid that's the shape of a five pointed star? All civil eingineered by Masons.
From a strictly political/scientific standpoint the whole election process is made to "appear" as if the peoples vote counts. Whereas the reality is the voters "hope" they can count on the delegates to vote as they said they would. The whole business of the electoral college system and the "delegate" and "superdelegate" arrangement only allows the process to be manipulated excluding the general public opinion. And when that can't be effectively done , they just throw out ballots as was done in Bush's re-election in Florida. Bush didn't "steal" the election. But the "powers that be", and who knows who they are , put him in there. We all know this here. But of course it has been said that Americans have short term memory.
So it ends up being that the people think they have a true voice , but it actually doesn't count aa much as they want to believe.
Not voting is a position that ultimately keeps my conscience clean from the lies and deception that permeate the whole system. If I were drafted I wouldn't even go serve. They'd have to put me in jail. This is how serious I am about this. I won't shed blood. And my brothers blood in another country. I pledge no allegiance to any State. But my faith obligates me to pay my taxes and obey whatever laws do not conflict with Gods' . My position is conscious and not merely apathetic. I don't have a hands down approach to societal ills. I do what I can to spread knowledge.
In Brasil one has to vote , but fortunately you can opt for an empty ticket. There are many that take this position in Brasil .
If I didn't know so much. And participated in the whole process. I'd vote for Ron Paul. He is for getting rid of the Federal Reserve Bank. But I am thankful to know what I know. So that I am not waiting in vain for solutions to world problems that will not be solved without divine intervention. I find it unfortunate that most prefer not to truly recognize and investigate the spiritual connections to this chaos. The "conspiracy" is to have everyone think that it IS just another "conspiracy theory" . That is can't be real.. This ultimately is the biggest trick.
You are betting on McCain? I am going to sit back and watch the show. I am still convinced that all this money invested in Obama is for him to be a huge charismatic propaganda machine. A cheerleader for the U.N. I don't think McCain has that much theatre in him. Americans like to be entertained. McCain seems like a war-monger. And that won't pacify the people. But that all depends on how scared we get I guess. And that is why a terrorist attack between now and the election is probable if the intent is to put McCain in office. Even then I don't think it will work. People just don't want Republicans in office here anymore. They appear to stand for wars and recessions. Obamas platform is "CHANGE".
I say, "be careful what you ask for."
Proud NON VOTER
Complying with nature functioning
written by Elson Silva, PhD, March 09, 2008
I was used to make this joke in the US while attending my PhD at Pennsylvania State University, USA. We Brazilians are so poor and old fashioned that we still make babies at home by the old and dirty traditional way.

I was used to tell Europeans that Brazilians are so short deprived on their intelligence and our memory is so short that we are forced by nature to have sex everyday in order to accomplish our nature duty. Advance modern man in the developed countries they are so intelligent and far away ahead in their intellectual profile that thye can do sex just annually or once in a life time that they sill know how to make it.

Australians are so advanced and now becoming rich accumulatin fat in their bodies like Americans do.

As a scientist with three issued American patentst pursuing a sort of 'scientific discovery' I feel proud of Brazil for being poor and behind.

As a poor country we do not have problems of rich societies, mainly obesity that is promising to reach half of the world population byt 2050.

______________________
Free Fruits on Public Areas to Curb Spreading Obesity

Fruits are low in calories and highly nutritional already grown on public places at increasing ratios to face obesity trends. Tree climbing also can be a body exercise for kids harvesting fruits.

Fruits have around four times more water content than cookies and easily satisfy hunger taking less energy. Refrigerators full of fruits easily beat junkies.

In Brazil we are increasing fruit trees in the public areas changing the country to a large tropical orchard. Then, sidewalks, squares, parks, roadsides will be plenty of free fruits bearing appropriate food to fight spreading obesity. Free fruits are protected from the power of the economic system pursuing profitability.

Other countries are invited to join us on a fight against global obesity toward a Public Fructification. Brazil intends to become a developed country without common problems of a superpower.

Planting fruit trees is easy!.
http://revver.com/watch/225528
http://revver.com/watch/529604

Carnivores?
http://revver.com/watch/218695
...
written by bo, March 09, 2008
written by Elson Silva, PhD, 2008-03-09 09:56:45
I was used to make this joke in the US while attending my PhD at Pennsylvania State University, USA. We Brazilians are so poor and old fashioned that we still make babies at home by the old and dirty traditional way.

I was used to tell Europeans that Brazilians are so short deprived on their intelligence and our memory is so short that we are forced by nature to have sex everyday in order to accomplish our nature duty. Advance modern man in the developed countries they are so intelligent and far away ahead in their intellectual profile that thye can do sex just annually or once in a life time that they sill know how to make it.

Australians are so advanced and now becoming rich accumulatin fat in their bodies like Americans do.

As a scientist with three issued American patentst pursuing a sort of 'scientific discovery' I feel proud of Brazil for being poor and behind.

As a poor country we do not have problems of rich societies, mainly obesity that is promising to reach half of the world population byt 2050.



damn Elson, Penn is a really good university. Guess you still haven't achieved how to speak/write proper english even after attending one of the elite universities in the world. smilies/wink.gif

And Brazil doesn't have a problem with obesity??? What f**king country are you in? I can tell ya that here in the northeast of Brazil I see daily women that have asses the size of a train! smilies/cheesy.gif
Thaddeus
written by A Brazilian, March 09, 2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomy

Anomie, in contemporary English, means a condition of malaise in individuals, characterized by an absence or diminution of standards or values. When applied to a government or society, anomie implies a social unrest or chaos.


I don't feel like discussing with you anymore. I would like to point out though, why do Americans and others (such as the Canadian Thaddeus) promote "culture" as some form of ass saking in other countries, but they do not practice the same thing in their home countries? Why someone else's daughter can be an illiterate whore and theirs can't? Don't wish for others what you wouldn't wish for yourself.

You can scream as loud as you can that nanotechnology is the same thing as carnaval, but that won't make it true. But why don't you become illiterate and promiscuous yourselves? Even if a parcel of your population is illiterate and promiscuous, and I believe that's easy to acknowledge by your pop culture of rappers and bitches, at least you still have enough people with the mind in the right place (i.e., in their heads and not in their genitals).

Basically the idea of "culture" according to people like you works this way: all cultures are equal, some promote stupidity and promiscuity and others promote science and good values, you are illiterate and promiscuous and we are the ones who build great things. We are all equals being what "we are" (a quote of the infamous black nazi illogical concept that people should be proud of "what they are", as if they could be anything else). Then all is needed is you to continue to be stupid, and we can give you a pat on the back so you will feel not entirely worthless, and we will continue making money and developing technology.

WTF! No, this is not good.

This is the most racist thing I have ever heard in my life. Any compliment to favela builders, to those stupid African noises and people that don't value education, the mere consideration of them as some sort of representative of anything in detriment to mathematics, physics, engineering, medicine, etc, is an insult. How can ever be improvement if everybody is equal? The very notion of good and bad, better or worse, comes from the comparison between different approaches. There always will be a better one in a given context, and by picking the better one we can improve things. The refusal in seeing this is plain stupid.
Bo
written by João da Silva, March 09, 2008
I can tell ya that here in the northeast of Brazil I see daily women that have asses the size of a train! smilies/cheesy.gif


Oh, God. Amtrak has taken over beloved Nordeste smilies/angry.gif
A Brasilian
written by dnbaiacu, March 09, 2008
I am starting to understand where you are coming from a little better. First world countries and their cultures being "entertained " by third world cultures or "sub-cultures" within their own boundaries. Keep the later dancing and singing and playing sports for them. While they continue to improvise more ways to create an even bigger divide of haves and have nots.
We have to remember that given the same oppurtunities in wealth creation and education , these "sub-cultures"(for lack of better terms) can and would achieve the same things.
But let's not forgot that many of the "sub-cultures" I assume you are referring to are decendants of cultures that lead the world in scientific , academic , and cultural advancement in times past. One need look further than Egypt. Greece borrowed and capitalized on much of Egypts prior achievements.
Besides all societies are strutured so that the elite are entertained by the peasants.
We all want this perfect world in which EVERYONE is given the oppurtunity and resources to max out their brain power. We need a PERFECT GOVERNMENT. And that doesn't exist..
At least not yet.
Read the book that we are being deceived into believing is full of folk tales and myths. (guess)
P.S
Actually it was good to see you blog. You let people keep expressing themselves and you can begin to see at some point where they are coming from. This is a good thing.

"All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, [during] the time that man has dominated man to his injury."
Ecclesiastes 8:9
This is just a harsh human reality at this point

Trust,"A Brazilian". No one is getting away with anything.
...
written by bo, March 09, 2008
written by João da Silva, 2008-03-09 16:08:17

Oh, God. Amtrak has taken over beloved Nordeste smilies/angry.gif



No João....AmCrack!!! smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
...
written by phdmiss, March 10, 2008
Oh dear, as a black person not from the Americas, I am feeling really sorry for Brazilian and American blacks...but the American black are infinitely better off. Why do Brazilian blacks tolerate such racism???
...
written by A Brazilian, March 10, 2008
Why do Brazilian blacks tolerate such racism???


Because there isn't any really. This is all made up by racists.
Elson Silva says...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 10, 2008
As a poor country we do not have problems of rich societies, mainly obesity that is promising to reach half of the world population byt 2050.


You obviously haven't been out to Realengo or ABC much lately.
To A Brazilian, our post-modern Integralist
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 10, 2008
I don't feel like discussing with you anymore.


It's been my experience, observing you on this board now for some time, that you generally don't like to discuss these issues with people who have a good grasp of what they are talking about. You'd rather buffalo gringos whose understanding of Brazil's racial history could fit in a teacup.

However, I'm a social scientist; you're a polemicist. And a polemicist can never, ever risk arguing with someone who can show up his theories for the irrational crap that they generally are.

I would like to point out though, why do Americans and others (such as the Canadian Thaddeus) promote "culture" as some form of ass saking in other countries, but they do not practice the same thing in their home countries? Why someone else's daughter can be an illiterate whore and theirs can't? Don't wish for others what you wouldn't wish for yourself.


First of all, A, I'm a Brazilian citizen, living in Brazil, and thus as Brazilian as anyone else here - probably more Brazilian than you, because I highly doubt that you are, in fact, a Brazilian citizen living in Brazil. To claim that I am not is to precisely fall into the "identity politics" which you've supposedly been decrying since the beginning of our discussion. So yopur speculations as to my other nationalities are rather humorous. If they had any bearing at all on this issue, then the racist ethnonationalists would be correct: culture would have to be logically transmitted through the blood, from father to son, instead of learned. Such an ideology is racist in the strictest sense, A, and I thought you were an anti-racist...? smilies/cheesy.gif

Secondly, my recent work on prostitution is molded after initiatives that have been introduced in certain parts of Europe and which I would very much like to see employed in Canada and the U.S. as well as in Brazil. So your claim that I'm backing policies and behaviorfor Brazil that I would never support elsewhere is simply a lie. To put it in terms that even you can understand, if a woman or a man decides to "sak their ass" (to use your term) for pay, then I think they should be protected by the same laws that protect any other worker and that, furthermore, they should be able to decide when and how they want to work and when and how they don't, like any other professional.

Finally, if my daughter were to decide to "sak [sic] her ass" for pay, I would whole-heartedly support her decision. I admit that it's not the job I'd like my daughter to have. But then again, I'd equally not like to see my daughter working as a maid, a factory worker, as someone's wife, or - for that matter - as an underpaid Brazilian university professor. I would hope she could find better and more fulfilling employement. So again, you are simply making s**t about me and my values.

You can scream as loud as you can that nanotechnology is the same thing as carnaval, but that won't make it true


Lost me there. Sounds like you're trying to employ some sort of mixed metaphor.

But why don't you become illiterate and promiscuous yourselves?


There are prostitutes (both male and female) and illiterates in every country in the world, but in seven years of studying sexual tourism in Rio de Janeiro, I have NOT ONCE met an illiterate prostitute. You don't even know what you are talking about, A. There may indeed be illiterate pros in Rio, but they are generally not to be found working the Copa strip. What we generally find there are working- and lower-middle-class women who have quit jobs as beuticians, tourism workers, checkout clerks and counter girls to work in a more lucrative trade. The kind of stereotypical prostitute (poorly paid, ignorant, illiterate, disease-ridden and exploited) that you seem to be talking about is much more likely to be found working in Brazilian-only venues deep in-country. So if you want to stamp out THAT sort of exploitation, may I suggest that you look at our fellow countrymen and not at gringos as the primary perpetrators?


continued below...
A Brazilian tries to grasp the culture concept and fails
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 10, 2008
Basically the idea of "culture" according to people like you works this way: all cultures are equal, some promote stupidity and promiscuity and others promote science and good values, you are illiterate and promiscuous and we are the ones who build great things. We are all equals being what "we are" (a quote of the infamous black nazi illogical concept that people should be proud of "what they are", as if they could be anything else). Then all is needed is you to continue to be stupid, and we can give you a pat on the back so you will feel not entirely worthless, and we will continue making money and developing technology.


Your statement here simply shows up your very deep ignorance with regards to how the culture concept is used in the modern social sciences. In spite of what you may have once heard in a Soc or Anthro I class, cultural relativism does not imply cultural equality. In fact, it implies exactly the opposite. It implies that all cultures are unique and ultimately incomparable in qualitative terms. We simply do not have an objective ruler by which we can scientifically claim one culture as "better" than the other. All such claims are thus political, emotional (generally due to simple bigotry), or moral in nature. But NONE of that means you can't make such claims: you just can't claim a scientific foundation for your statements. If you want to say "Blacks are inferior because Jeezis told me they are" or some such nonsense, go ahead. Such a claim is rightfully categorized as prejudice backed up by ignorance and superstition, however, and not as a scientific argument. And if you want to cherry-pick your anthropological data - as you do above - so that "christianity" suddenly becomes a "European" cultural trait whereas "Islam" is not likewise African, then - once again - your arguments are based on ignorance and the desire to politically manipulate people. They are not scientific.

So claim away whatever the hell you like, A, just don't expect to fart out your mouth around social scientists about how "African Illiteracy" somehow "scientifically proves that blacks are culturally inferior" and not get anything but a long, drawn out raspberry in return. such an argument is ignorant, prejudiced and simply agressively stupid as the day is long.

As for relativism, all the culture concept claims is that there is no ONE TRUE SUPERIOR AND OBJECTIVE set of cultural values against which all others must be weighed. It does NOT claim that all cultures are equal. I defy you to find one rep**able anthropologist or sociologist writing in the last 50 years who makes that claim.

This is the most racist thing I have ever heard in my life.


Well of course it is. They are your words, not those of anyone who has yet presented an argument here. So why are you suprised at their content?

How can ever be improvement if everybody is equal? The very notion of good and bad, better or worse, comes from the comparison between different approaches. There always will be a better one in a given context, and by picking the better one we can improve things


That is one of the most patently ridiculous things I have ever heard anyone ever say on this board. Difference does not necessarily mean superiority or inferiority and to claim that it does is simply stupid. So stupid, in fact, that any 4 year old child can see right through your argument, A: is strawberry ice cream the same as chocolate? Obviously not. Does that mean that one is thus better than the other? Only if you have a subjective preference for one over the other. Period. smilies/cheesy.gif

There are simply things in this world that cannot be quantitatively compared, or even qualitatively compared in a reductionist "better/worse" sense.

I find it rather amusing that you feel your beliefs are superior and "scientific" when they are, in fact, simply a more elaborate version of the tribalist ignorance you claim to despise. Your belief that "your" people and values are intrinsically superior to others is, in fact, the mark of a profoundly primitive way of thinking that is deeply linked to other totemistic beliefs. You simply believe that your values are better than other peoples'. You have faith in that statement that's rock solid and will withstand any logical or rational argument.

That's not science, A Brazilian: that's superstition. If it is indeed true, as you claim, that there are more or less evolved concepts in human culture, then the arguments you make above situate you as a particularly unevolved specimen of humanity. There's no difference between what you've been preaching here and some Hutu beating his chest over the Tutsi menace.
DNbaiacu says...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 10, 2008
I am starting to understand where you are coming from a little better. First world countries and their cultures being "entertained " by third world cultures or "sub-cultures" within their own boundaries. Keep the later dancing and singing and playing sports for them. While they continue to improvise more ways to create an even bigger divide of haves and have nots.


If A Brazilian would end his analysis at that point, he'd be spot on. Unfortunately, his point is a bit wider than that, DN. When it comes right down to it, A Brazilian AGREES with the notion that certain peoples need to be kept within boundaries - or even, in fact, erradicated. He is just mortally offended that certain Americans and Europeans seem to act as if Brazilians were one of these peoples.

So it's not as if he's offended by Euro-Yank bigotry. He's as bigotted as they are, or worse. What offends A Brazilian is that such bigotry is directed against people like himself, who he feels are "superior" Brazilians based on their supposedly "superior European culture and values".

In other words (and I hope our black American readers forgive me for using this term, given the context), A Brazilian believes that n****rs exist and that they are pathetic, worthless and expendable. What he objects to is being classified as a n****r himself.
TB or /TB
written by Simpleton, March 10, 2008
TB ur forgiven at least by the /black American readers. For more than two years I've not seen anyone provide such an in depth and precise disection of what abe is all about. Kudos. You will not have anything resembling a rational response. CoshstaK may appear but only to try to be proposta finial given the next commentable article.
Thaddeus
written by dnbaiacu, March 10, 2008
Your'e an excellent writer. I enjoyed your responses to A Brazilian.. You pretty much summed it up.
I was feeling the pain in his writings. Hopefully your responses will help A Brazilian where HE or SHE is coming from a little better.
gee
written by Shel, March 11, 2008
I missed all the fun. I will read it all entries and reply later today.

However, having read a few so far I have to say that racism does exist in Brazil and Brazilians turn the blind eye on this issue. Our society is highly stratified, much like the US and England for that matter. The US has serious racial issues, but at least they are dealing with the problem. More and more we see this issue coming up. The election is a great example where people from different walks of like are discussing about the fact that OBAMA is black. This brings the issue of racism to the top and unless we discuss about what makes us uncomfortable, we will continue to live in denial.
Racism exist because of our internal fears about the other. How we see the other, our perception, upbringing and social structure all influence how we see ourselves and the people around us. I do believe that being different is healthy. Homogeneity is a dream, a fascist wish. Hitler, Franco, Mussolini all had the same thing in common: Their race and culture were superior to all others, therefore if a person was different, he/she/they was/were considered an enemy.

Therefore A Brazilian, we in Brazil have to face to own issues. The educational system in Brazil has a lot of faults, and the university exam is one of them: a way to keep the poor out of the education system. I was educated in private schools, went to foreign universities, but my friends back home can hardly afford a "cursinho".
Thaddeus
written by Shel, March 11, 2008
Dear friend, you are literally knocking on wood. Forgive me, but this is the same guy who has said over and over again that our native population (our indians) are less cultured, backwards trapped in some long gone era and that we need to bring them into the 21st century. He needs to go beyond Anthropology and sociology 100 class to understand that all cultures have something positive to give.

Thaddeus, the racist
written by A Brazilian, March 11, 2008
It's been my experience, observing you on this board now for some time...


I meant I don't want to discuss with you anymore because it is pointless and your latest posts are the evidence of it. You completely twisted everything I said, turned into some sort of genetical matter of race (very American indeed), when in fact I never used this kind of argument and never associated races with cultures, and made some simplistic comparisons (like the ice cream one) in order to build that pile of bulls**t of have been defending so far.

I said that some of the North Africans that came to Brasil were Muslims, therefore NOT QUITE AFRICAN. Why, oh Christ? Because Islam appeared in Arabia and later they invaded the north of Africa. The Africans that lived there adopted a culture that was alien to them. I never said christianity was exclusively European, but instead that we came to know it through he Portuguese during the colonization, so it is a fair to refer to it as "European". And by the way, if they can adopt Islam, Why, oh God, WHY can't they adopt something else!?

Another thing, please cite one, JUST ONE, one Brazilian indian tribe that had an advanced culture? In America there were a few, but they were not in Brazil. If the Aztecs were the "Europe" (or Arabia or India, given that for some time they were ahead of the Europeans in terms of knowledge) of the new world, then the Brazilian Indians would the "tribe in the middle of some forest in Africa" of the new world, by comparing them in terms of technological advancement. While the first weren't prehistoric, the latter were.

In order to compare something qualitatively we need to have goals. So comparing them in such a context implies the existence of a goal. What is the goal? It is the improvement of our lives through several ways, be it scientific, technological or moral. Against this goal we can tell what works and what does not. Hence a better and a worse.

Unfortunately the stereotypical African way of life, and I say stereotypical because the self-proclaimed "afro-somethings" in several countries consider this nonsense to be "their" culture, doesn't work very well for this purpose. Just watch Brasil for example, they spend a lot of time promoting dances and some horrible noise, and not time enough promoting things that matter. It's a mistery to me why they don't adopt as a culture to be number one in everything they do. Frankly, that would be a lot better.

This has a direct impact on how different peoples perform. While in some countries good values are promoted, good for progress that is, in some others a "shake your ass" culture is promoted. And cynically those who are too busy making money in the first world say "all cultures are equally valid" and give even more strength to the ass shaking whores, while in their home countries they continue with their businesses. Hypocrisy. Pure hypocrisy. If their children were to do half of what someone else's children do, with full support of the local idiots and foreign scholars, they would have a heart attack.

Of course it's perfect for you, you stay there living a life of consumerism, and when you get too much stressed you just take a vacation and go on a ride on "exotic places" like Brazil, where a bunch of locals will be more than glad to entertain you for a few days. Then when you get tired of this you can go home. Oh, I was almost forgetting, another advantage of having "equally valid cultures" in many places is that you have cool documentaries on the Discovery Channel, so if you don't have the money or will to travel you can see the ass shaking people, that give no value to education and progress, on TV.

You are so full of s**t. If I say that "afro-tards" have a s**tty culture is because I am being honest I sincerely hope they drop it and start working towards progress or, at least, don't mess with those Brazilians that are trying to make a good life for themselves. Racism is enforcing a strictly racial rule for all, like you do, like the afro-tards do, like some white-tards do as well. A society free of racism must first drop this euphemism for "race" called ethnicities and target great things.

PS: your joke about the typo I committed, sake => "shake", was just too low and not funny. But I appreciate your effort. smilies/smiley.gif
TB
written by Charles Scott, March 11, 2008
TB, You are a Fuc*king excellent writer. I really enjoyed your article. It is funny that A BRAZILLIAN has the same knee jerk reaction every ignorant Brazillian has when faced with actual facts. He claims he does not want to discuss with you anymore. I will be in Rio in a month. I will gladly buy you a drink.
Thaddeus, a challenge for you
written by A Brazilian, March 11, 2008
If A Brazilian would end his analysis at that point, he'd be spot on. Unfortunately, his point is a bit wider than that, DN. When it comes right down to it, A Brazilian AGREES with the notion that certain peoples need to be kept within boundaries - or even, in fact, erradicated. He is just mortally offended that certain Americans and Europeans seem to act as if Brazilians were one of these peoples.


Here is the challenge: where did I say anything even close to it?

This is what I am talking about. You make things up or twist them in order to fit in your little world. Your mind can't conceive the idea of a free soul, therefore you rationalize everything into what's familiar to you, i.e., a racialized society. In the US, or Canada, or where the hell you came from, probably there are only racism 1.0 and racism 2.0, the first is the one of the KKK and the beginning of the 20th century, the latter is the politically correct and newer one.

You aren't the center of the universe. Why does Americans and Europeans or others think that everybody cares about what they think, or are worried about what they will think? I don't give a s**t about you. It's none of my business what happens in your country. But it is my business what happens in mine.

The problem is not what you think, but a bunch a Brazilians actually believing in the load of crap you are selling and start internalizing it to the point that they start acting as if it were a fact. My duty here as a Brazilian is to warn other Brazilians about you and your racism, and avoid that more idiots internalize this nonsense.

Maybe if people start thinking right, picking up what is good in other cultures and eliminating the undesired aspects of those same cultures (as for example the promotion of stupidity), then we will have progress in this country.
...
written by bo, March 11, 2008
Why does Americans and Europeans or others think that everybody cares about what they think, or are worried about what they will think?



I certainly don't think that others care about what we (americans) think. But obviously you seem to be convinced of this. These are your problems Abe, not ours (mine).

And you calling someone else a racist?? That's hilarious coming from someone that called the historian, who is a black american, a n****r.

Nice Abe....very nice.
A Brazilian...
written by dnbaiacu, March 11, 2008
I just have a question. And I am not attacking your view. I just want to understand where you are coming from..

Do you think that if given # 1 . TIME and #2 RESOURCES. That any culture can achieve what other "advanced" nations have achieved?

A lot of your negative comments are targeted towards the "afro-brazilian" culture. But do you understand that given the academic resources the poor could in fact contribute in a more substantive way besides entertainment for tourists?
For the most part , the poorer class in Brasil, which happens to be darker in most instances, are just operating in their realm of oppurtunity and understanding. Which in most instances IS limited.
Europeans and "wanna be" Europeans run Brasil. As nature would have it people look out for themselves. Some WILL be left out of the loop.
So the question is why are they left out of the loop?
Is it to maintain a poor class to fuel capitalism?
Is it outright racism?
Orr both?
For those of you warning me about A Brazilian...
written by Macunaima, March 11, 2008
Rest assured, I know exactly who I'm talking to. smilies/wink.gif
Baiacu
written by A Brazilian, March 11, 2008
Do you think that if given # 1 . TIME and #2 RESOURCES. That any culture can achieve what other "advanced" nations have achieved?


Only if they practice the correct values. That's why values are important. In Brazil we have plenty of resources and money, the money goes away in bureaucracy and corruption and the resources are depleted by a few.

A lot of your negative comments are targeted towards the "afro-brazilian" culture. But do you understand that given the academic resources the poor could in fact contribute in a more substantive way besides entertainment for tourists?


First of all, the criticisms aren't limited to blacks, but they are directed towards anybody that agrees with the "cultural" nonsensical belief of Thaddeus. There's no reason to believe that someone should have his horizon limited by some social norm, where the "culture" is given as if it was set in stone. So it is reasonable to expect from anybody to do their best and not waste our time with this bulls**t.

So the question is why are they left out of the loop?
Is it to maintain a poor class to fuel capitalism?
Is it outright racism?
Orr both?


To answer your question would imply in agreeing with this dicothomy European-NonEuropean and this idea that every single Brazilian is trying to be European. That is false.

They are left out of the loop because they lack the proper values. They aren't worried about education as a means of improving in life, and someone among them is dedicated to that it is likely that he is going to be target of jokes. If you know anything about the Brazilian culture you know the disdain there's for people that study. They are likely to spend R$ 200,00 in a tennis shoe, but not in a book.

Later they will complain about social inequality. It only happens that part of the society wants to improve and another part wants to party. And don't even mention racism. We had several synonyms for WHORE in the beginning of the XX century like "polish girl", "italian" or "french" because a bunch of them were running away from the war. They were treated like s**t and worked in coffee farms. What do the afro-something want? An invitation?
...
written by Macunaima, March 11, 2008
I haven't even looked at A's comments yet, but let's see if I can guess their gist, based on past experience. I will make three predictions...

1) A will make some highly inflamatory statements which supposedly "scientifically" underline the superiority of himself and those he considers to be "his people".

2) He will call me a racist, because he's either too dense or too cynical to grasp the fact that I am - as I've repeatedly pointed out - against ethnonationalism and the concept of fixed cultural identities, not to mention the absolutely nutso concept that a man or a woman's behavior is controlled by their biology.

3) A will also engage in a prolonged rant against unspoecified "racists" and "anglo-saxons" who are supposedly corrupting all that is pure and good about Brazil, conveniently ignoring the fact that no one here - and certainly not me - has made any comments at all regarding the U.S. or Britain's supposedly superior racial system.

So, now let's go to A's comments and see how close I came, shall we?




I meant I don't want to discuss with you anymore because it is pointless and your latest posts are the evidence of it.


I know it's pointless. People like yourself always find it "pointless" to discuss science with people who are better informed because your only "point" is to use a public forum to soapbox up a load of ridiculous bigotry in the hopes that the lesser intelligent or uninformed members of the public will be impressed by your verve and rhetoric. If someone comes along to show you up for the rabble-rousing ideologue you really are, the best thing to do is beat a quick retreat under a cloud of wounded dignity.

Evangelist street preachers and anarchists use the same methods, A. I suppose that they are commonly taught in fascist and integralist circles, too.

You completely twisted everything I said, turned into some sort of genetical matter of race (very American indeed), when in fact I never used this kind of argument and never associated races with cultures, and made some simplistic comparisons (like the ice cream one) in order to build that pile of bulls**t of have been defending so far.


I have no idea what a "genetical matter of race" is, nor does anyone else here, I suspect. Nor has anything I've written above been based upon the notion that you conflate race and culture. What I HAVE implied is that you use culture in such a way that it is effectively an ideological stand-in for race. Your ultimate point is that there are superior and inferior peoples on this planet and that you believe you should be classified in with the first set. You - like most post-modern fascists - are smart enough to realize that arguments postulating biological inferiority/superiority aren't going to be bought by anyone brighter than a 50-watt bulb. However, you also realize that most people will buy the same sort of argument if it's couched in culturalist terms. You thus use the cultural concept in an ignorant and exceptionally preverted fashion to "prove" the same thing folk of your type are always trying to prove: that you and yours are, in fact, a superior branch of humanity and that the rest of us should kneel down and kiss your sanctified asses.

Now, that's the second time I've had to lay the argument out for you in clear, simple English. If you haven't understood me yet, there's not much more I can do for you.

As for the ice cream metaphor being simplistic, I agree. But it is no more simplistic than the argument that Christianity and literacy are "European". So I was simply employing your level of rhetoric in the hopes that I'd some up with something simple enough for even you to understand. After all, you're having a hard time with the cultural concept, something most high school sophmores can handle, so I didn't want you to strain yourself.

The nut of the matter is that you quite clearly claimed, above, that difference necessarily implies superiority and inferiority. I don't care if you're talking about cultures, ice cream, or color of paint: it doesn't. That is a very simple fact that most children grasp but which you, unaccountably, are having a hard time grasping.

Continued below...
Thaddeus?
written by A Brazilian, March 11, 2008
What I HAVE implied is that you use culture in such a way that it is effectively an ideological stand-in for race. Your ultimate point is that there are superior and inferior peoples on this planet and that you believe you should be classified in with the first set.


Then you have given up any argument and now is just trying to see if some label sticks on me in order to discredit my ideas. I only said it is possible to classify cultures as better or worse. It implies the goal being the improvement of manking in general.

I never made any affirmation that this or that "culture" is forbidden or impossible to be achieved by anybody. As a matter of fact I have been constantly urging people to change to better. It is not a revolutionary ideology, in the sense of establishing a goal and socially engineering people towards that goal (like fascism, communism or ecologism), but a self-improvement philosophy and a meaning for our nation.

I think you don't know what you are talking about. The Aztecs had a writing system and advanced egineering techniques without having contact with Europeans. I only said that some tribes in here were prehistoric, and prehistoric means that they had no writing system, therefore made no records of their history and didn't build civilizations. That's a fact, not bigotry. Does it say anything about the future? No, it doesn't. Could they adopt proper values and live in the same society as we do and work towards their own improvement and that of the country? Yes, they could. So, where's the racism?

I urge people to participate in the country as best as they can, and I attack backward cultures and values that help to cause all the disgrace we see around here.

Besides, if we aren't thinking in terms of cultures, then they must be identifiable. If they are identifiable then it means it has a set of properties. If they have a set of properties then they are finite. And if that set of properties is what defines them, then changing it would mean destroying it. If I promoted this or that culture I would contract the very idea of self-improvement and the purpose of our nation. Therefore interpreting it as some sort of dicothomy is very American, but not what I have written at all.
A Brazilian
written by dnbaiacu, March 11, 2008
Thanks for responding.. I appreciated your comments. And I am understanding A LOT better.
I was tempted to ask you where you were on the color spectrum as a Brazilian..But after analyzing you comments it doesn't matter because I see that at the heart of your arguments are VALUES.
I will reveal that I am half brasilian and half american of mostly visible african descent. I have been back and forth to Brasil most of my life. And I lived there 3 years. I have first hand experience with the effects of RACISM in both countries.

Values ARE an issue.. But we have to remember that values are LEARNED..The segment of society we are referring to are going to have to SEE , through the MEDIA and any other way possible positive role models that promote the VALUES that you speak of. The only thing that is coming close to doing that "somewhat' on a large scale is the magazine RACA. Popular television is NOT helping for the most part , or is limited. Be it do to lack of financing to promote such projects or mere apathy.. Why is this?....
I see the recent movement to have classes on afro-brazilian history and indigenous history in the school. In fact it was in A Tarde newspaper today. (Salvador) . This is good and a start.
You struck a chord in me about the "studious" being ridiculed. That happens in the U.S also albeit to a lesser degree with the latest generation of youth. It is much more prevalent in the poorer segments of the population,,not the middle class. The problem in Brasil is that there is very little "middle class" among afro-brasilians. So there is not much of root for these "values" to flourish and spread.
The "studious" among the poor is a true exception. It IS a hard fight. But the more examples set and the ADVERTISED and PROMOTED visibly, the more there is for the poor youth to aspire to and KNOW and INTERNALIZE that individual greatness can be achieved. That it ISN'T hopeless. Or a waste of time. That a man is not how he plays futebol , or how many women he can bed. These are the standards to measure manhood amongst a "SLAVE CULTURE' . But you have LEARN how to free yourself of a slave mentality.
Now the MASTERS have to want to free the minds of the slaves. Or some of the slaves have to unify and help free their brethren.
Slave culture still exists in the U.S disguised under the commercial prosperity of Hip/Hop Rapp culture. The very same way slave culture is popularized in Pagode.
Energy will go somewhere. And if it is directed mostly towards the next time you are going to get laid. Then there you have it. A LOT of wasted creative energy. Without the resources and motivation and role models put in place, the poor will continue to measure their worth with their physical and sexual prowess.
We can't count on the Masters "wanting" to free the minds of the slaves. So the slaves will have to form a movement. They will, when they have had enough. But maybe no time soon because the government is very successfull with its "circus and bread" social manipulation. There are far too many HOLIDAYS in the north east. And if I am not mistaken it is the North east that provides most of the "labor" (hard labor , lower wages) for all of Brazil. Continue to give these folks parties and of course the best Carnival in the world ,and they won't protest as much.
Why did Southern Brasil want to form their own country?....I won't assume it is a racial issue. But I do know that people of darker hues are not well accepted at large.

Values have to be LEARNED.. Who will teach them. It becomes a matter of circumstance for the most part. What you don't know.. you don't know. All governments count on this to control the masses. Brasil is no exception.
Just be glad YOU KNOW and HELP someone else , if that interest you.

I was taken aback by you comments on who cares what Americans or Europeans think. This is a website for anyone interested in Brazilian affairs written in ENGLISH.
I digress
...
written by Macunaima, March 11, 2008
It's a mistery to me why they don't adopt as a culture to be number one in everything they do. Frankly, that would be a lot better.


Frankly, A, I think a lot of us here are asking the same thing about YOU.

I mean, you are having a real hard time understanding simple concepts that have been the basis of history, anthropology and sociology for the better part of a century now. If you were some sort of illiterate macaxeira farmer from down the valley, I'd be a bit more understanding, but you obviously know how to read and write, are bilingual (presumably, though no one here, AFAICR, has ever observed you writing in Portuguese), grasp the fact that history exists and can use a computer. So when you come along with la-de-da bulls**t like "Indian cultures are inferior to European cultures because they aren't as advanced"... Well, gee, old sport, a body's got to wonder, given all the bennies you've so obviously availed yourself of in this life, how you can manage to be so aggressively butt-ignerint.

Maybe if you'd put half as much effort into learning about the world as you do into trying to prove that you belong to a superior branch of humanity, you would find that you could get published in more forums than Brazzil.com or integralist yahoo rags.

Just a thought, Janer.

Of course it's perfect for you, you stay there living a life of consumerism, and when you get too much stressed you just take a vacation and go on a ride on "exotic places" like Brazil, where a bunch of locals will be more than glad to entertain you for a few days.


BING!!!!

Got the boy on #3!

A Brazilian, if you want to rant about evil Yanks or Canadians spoiling "your" country and not caring about its future, please do us the favor of actually attacking people who fit that description and not someone who's just come from teaching 6 solid hours in 40 degrees of heat to a band of freshmen students, half of whom live in the Favela do Maré. You couldn't handle the Brazil I deal with 258 days a year, and certainly couldn't handle it at my pay level, so please don't make an ass of yourself by publicly lecturing me about my supposed consumerism and love for the Brazilian exotic. You talk a nice talk about "civilizing the poor" and "teaching people to be the best", but I suspect that if you actually had to go out there and do something to that effect, you'd be whining like Caco Antibes on the train to suburbia. Given your loudmouthed, smirking brand of arrogance, you'd probably wind up in the micro-ondas to boot. smilies/cheesy.gif

PS: your joke about the typo I committed, sake => "shake", was just too low and not funny. But I appreciate your effort.


I admit it was a cheap shot, but a man who talks about "afro-tards' s**tty culture" deserves no less.

Here is the challenge: where did I say anything even close to it?


Your comment re: afro-tards giving up their s**tty culture speaks for itself.

You aren't the center of the universe. Why does Americans and Europeans or others think that everybody cares about what they think, or are worried about what they will think? I don't give a s**t about you. It's none of my business what happens in your country. But it is my business what happens in mine.


You obviously care or you wouldn't be spending your time here ranting the way you do, let alone the hours necessary to craft your amusing little pieces for the main news and views board.

As for Brazil being "your" country, I wasn't aware I was talking to Dom Pedro II's great-great whatever. That's be about the only person who could claim some sort of personal ownership to Brazil.

I have news for you A: Brazil's been a constitutional repbulic for over a century now. Citizenship - and thus responsabilities and rights - within said republic are not limited by birth, nor does Brazil recognize
jus sanguinus
as the exclusive means of obtaining citizenship. I am as much a citizen of this country as you are - presuming, of course, you are even a citizen, which many readers of this board highly doubt. For you to claim that you somehow have more rights and responsabilities than me - or ANY OTHER citizen - based on religion, country of birth, color, or religion is in fact illegal. Worse, given the fact that you've just spent the past 5 posts attempting to convince us that you DON'T believe that culture or nationality are biological traits, it's just f**king stupid.

Take your own advice, son, and realize that you are not the center of the world. You are not even the center of Brazil. Like it or not (and I'm happy to note that the fact must really piss the likes of you off), I'm a citizen of this country. And you know something, A? I'm actually far more of a patriot than you: I CHOSE to be a Brazilian. You, if your claims are to be believed, were simply born one.
Interude in debate
written by e harmony, March 11, 2008
Just to add some humor in all this serious debate. I came across this video on another site... funny as h*ll. lol

The product of America's superior educational systems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE
Correction in title
written by e harmony, March 11, 2008
I meant to spell: Interlude. Sorry.
Balls. And I don't mean "courage"....
written by Macunaima, March 11, 2008
Then you have given up any argument and now is just trying to see if some label sticks on me in order to discredit my ideas. I only said it is possible to classify cultures as better or worse. It implies the goal being the improvement of manking in general.


Yes, that is PRECISELY what I said. When you use culture in that reductionist, essentialist and wholly unscientific manner, it performs the same function as race. The technical term for what you are doing is "ethnocentrism". It is the irrational belief that one's own culturally inculcated values are superior to others.

Ultimately, ethnocentrism and racism perform the same function: they allow humanity to be arbitrarily divided into superior and inferior groups, generally in function of some larger political objective. In this sense, they are FUNCTIONALLY EQUAL.

In other words, it really doesn't matter if you believe that it's culture or race which make other groups inferior, as long as you get to classify them that way.

Now, there's one possible exception to that general rule, which we often see in the U.S. American version of ethnocentrism. This is an evangelist ethnocentrism, one which wishes to convert other peoples' to ones' superior values. In this brand of bigotry, the Other is inferior unless and until he accepts conversion to superior cultural values.

When you occasionaly take a step back and realize how stupid you come off sounding and how much your underlying prejudices and bigotry are showing, Abe, you occasionally sound as if you are preaching evangelical ethnocentrism. However, your constant sniping at me, a Brazilian citizen, as a "non-Brazilian", simply because I wasn't born in Brazil, kinda shows you up, doesn't it?

Now, you could make the ridiculous claim that I'm "not really" a Brazilian because I don't share your "superior" cultural values, but that would mean that MOST Brazilians are, in fact, non-Brazilians by your lights. After all, you don't like "afro-noise" and I think we can pretty much agree that most Brazilians do. smilies/cheesy.gif

And I find it interesting that you believe that dichotomies are "American", seeing as how you repeatedly divide the world's cultures and peoples into "inferior" and "superior" brands and believe that difference needs must indicate "better" or "worse".

I can't think of a more dichotomic brand of thought than that. smilies/cheesy.gif

That's some set of brass balls you've got there, Abe. Tell me, does your momma polisdh them for you or is that the maid's chore?

OK I GET IT NOW
written by dnbaiacu, March 11, 2008
A Brazilian has cleared it up for me with the last blog. It's values everyone. And this will spill into other terriotory that it may not be politically "cordial" to get into. "A Brazilian" promotes VALUES in all cultures. Descendants of slaves , indigenous, whatever. He just wants "cultures" to aspire to some VALUES and this will uplift them.
We have to admit this is true.
Now if some of the oppressive or dominating cultures would adopt some VALUES too we WOULD be headed for a much better world. But the reality is , it won't happen without Divine intervention.
In the meantime , the best any of us can do is teach another young person some VALUES . And no matter what his race or culture he can reach his or her full potential within whatever the circumstances will allow.
It is going to take a lot more effort on the part of the government AND philanthropy from a few generous people and institutions to help uplift some. Let's hope that this supposed up and coming prosperity many hope for in Brasil will provide these oppurtunities. A darker and visible middle class may be on the horizon after all.
Caco Antibes
written by Macunaima, March 11, 2008
For those of you gringos who didn't get my "Caco Antibes" comment, Caco is a well-known "tipinho brasileiro", immortalized by the late, great sunday evening comedy show "Sai de Baixo". Here's what wikipedia has to say about Caco (consider this translation my ato de contrição for so much heavy posting today):

A Brief Biography
Once a member of São Paulo high society, Caco Antibes was the victim of an federal income tax audit which discovered an apparently unlimited number of shady dealings, some involving influential politicians. Because of this, Caco and his wife Magda were evicted from their mansion along with their mother-in-law, Cassandra Mathias Salão, and went to live in Largo do Arouche with Vanderley Mathias, also known as Vavá, Cassandra's brother.

A descendent of the Danish Baronness Waisse Füder, noble member of the Schupënpau family, the blond, blue-eyed Caco Antibes Caco is the most snobbish resident ofArouche Towers: he hates poor people, gets nervous around anyone darker-skinned than he, loves to use English words to show off his superior education and is, in general, a perfect bum, given that he hates work and considers himself to be a "Claudia Schiffer in pants". Caco tries to use get-rich-quick schemes to win back his fortune while he puts up with his mother-in-law's cutting comentary and his wife Magda's Barbie-doll like stupidity.

Caco Antibes is interpreted by actor Miguel Falabella.

The Antibes Philosophy
Some pearls of wisdom from the mouth of Antibes:

"Poor people give me the creeps."
"If a poor person eats chicken, it's because one of the two are sick."
"Poor people float in the ocean, buoyed by their beer bellies while the rich sink due to the weight of their Rolexes."
"The poor always have more than one name in order to appear rich: 'Pamela Regina Soraia call yer cuzin Romulo Gustavo Herique to th' dinner table!"
"The poor love to make up and 'prettify' the names of their 'young'ns': Cristienny, Nathalya, Jullyeny, Cristillayne, Judisleny. They also like to use the names of foreign celebrities, especially those they can't pronounce: Jenniffer, Stéphanie, Cameron, Uâxinton, Charles".
"I had to take the bus today and all these poor people got on. I was surrounded by short brown people and I went into a panic. I felt like Márcia Fú, being surrounded by the Cuban Women's Volleyball Team!"


You can see Caco in full form here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te9Aw2JYIcc

Caco Antibes? Janer Cristaldo? A Brazilian...?

You decide.

(Here's an english wikipage with more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_de_Baixo)
Dnbaiacu says...
written by Macunaima, March 11, 2008
[Abe] just wants "cultures" to aspire to some VALUES and this will uplift them.
We have to admit this is true.


Whose values? Dn, Abe is saying that samba, for example, is "inferior" to the waltz, that Christianity is a "superior" religion to anything else on the planet, that wearing Levis is "superior" to wearing a dashiki made out of pano da costa...

I'm not getting it. Please explain to me how and why I must admit that these values are true.

I am very leery of people who preach some sort of generic "values". In my experience, they are some of the most ammoral bastards on the face of the planet.
Thaddeus, the racist
written by A Brazilian, March 11, 2008
Yes, that is PRECISELY what I said. When you use culture in that reductionist, essentialist and wholly unscientific manner, it performs the same function as race. The technical term for what you are doing is "ethnocentrism". It is the irrational belief that one's own culturally inculcated values are superior to others.


No, it doesn't mean any of that. First it is not irrational because it can be measured. Second it is not ethnocentric because it's not based on race, but values. And if some are better it is because they can produce better results and they are morally correct. If some are immoral or not aiming at great things then they are not good.

Replying to you is monotonous, here I am repeating the same things over and over again and all you can do is to call me of several things and use the "appeal to authority" argument while you can't disprove that values can lead to better results and cultures aren't set in stone, so improving values is actually natural to them. How can we improve anything if we can't compare?

You obviously care or you wouldn't be spending your time here ranting the way you do, let ...


What I do here is my duty as a Brazilian and the target audience of such comments is the Brazilians that come here and weren't infected by this propaganda.

However, your constant sniping at me, a Brazilian citizen, as a "non-Brazilian", simply because I wasn't born in Brazil, kinda shows you up, doesn't it?


But you aren't Brazilian. You may have a Brazilian passport and be recognized as a citizen, but you didn't grow up in this country and culture isn't passed through the blood. Your values are Canadian to the core. You just mention your "Brazilianity", assuming that it is true, because in the Anglo-saxon world race and culture are intimately connected. If you were Brazilian then you would know that we see others as Brazilians, regardless on how they look, because they were born here and not because they have some blood-non-sensical-link. Some like to say where they ancestors have come from, but that's NOT a social requirement and you are not required to think of yourself belonging to some block separate from the rest.

And I find it interesting that you believe that dichotomies are "American", seeing as how you repeatedly divide the world's cultures and peoples into "inferior" and "superior" brands and believe that difference needs must indicate "better" or "worse".


There are many shades between two extremes. If you were Brazilian you would catch that very quickly.

For those of you gringos who didn't get my "Caco Antibes" comment, Caco is a well-known "tipinho brasileiro", immortalized by the late, great sunday evening comedy show "Sai de Baixo". Here's what wikipedia has to say about Caco (consider this translation my ato de contrição for so much heavy posting today):


That's called humor, just in case you don't have that in Canada. And it is just Brazilians making fun of themselves. This "Caco" was bankrupt, but pretended to be important somehow. All things he said were just ridiculous given his situation.

That's some set of brass balls you've got there, Abe.


http://www.ventriloharassment.org/balls.wav
Abe Abe Abe
written by Simpleton, March 12, 2008
"I only said that some tribes in here were prehistoric, and prehistoric means that they had no writing system, therefore made no records of their history and didn't build civilizations."

- And thus you insist these cultures are a dead end and must be educated, by force if necessary.

"I attack backward cultures and values that help to cause all the disgrace we see around here."

- Leaving these cultures alone and not insisting "they adopt proper values" (up to exactly whose standards? yours and yours alone?) may not lead them to contribute to mans future on the grandest scale possible, but it sure does not cause anyone (except maybe your own self) any disgrace. Pushing is what most read into your forceful statements Abe - it will generate resistance (and resistance is futile Abeborg). Underneath it all I think you actually mean to lead but that takes one with a more receptive, adaptive, accepting persona than your culturalization will allow you to muster.
Abe spits up and goes home.
written by Macunaima, March 12, 2008
No, it doesn't mean any of that. First it is not irrational because it can be measured.


No. It can't be comparatively measured without making a series of arbitrary a priori definitions as to "better" and "worse". It thus cannot be objectively measured.

Second it is not ethnocentric because it's not based on race, but values.


Abe, you obviously don't understand the meaning of "ethnocentric". Ethnocentrism is based on values, not race. This isn't exactly esoteric knowledge, btw. While you may indeed be repeating yourself, that is certainly not because I'm not rationally refuting your arguments and this is a very good example of that. You either do not understand what ethnocentrism is or you are cynically pretending not to, but that's certainly not my problem, sir, nor is it due to any lack of rational argument on my part.

...while you can't disprove that values can lead to better results and cultures aren't set in stone...


This bit is somewhat confused. Are you actually telling me to prove a negative, Abe? Science and rationality are positivist: they are based on proof, not disproofs. I do not have to "disprove that values can lead to better results". In fact, that's not even my argument. You have to prove that values lead to better results Abe, and if you want said proof to be accepted as rational and scientific, this needs to be based on sort sort of objective measurement of "better" and a clear definition of "values" - neither which you seem willing or able to provide. It is your hypothesis, man: YOU furnish the proof. That's you science works.

As for the "cultures aren't set in stone" bit, I'm completely lost there. Are you claiming that they are or that they aren't? I'm claiming that they aren't and that is very, very easily proven.

But you aren't Brazilian. You may have a Brazilian passport and be recognized as a citizen, but you didn't grow up in this country and culture isn't passed through the blood.


First of all, you don't have the slightest idea where I grew up. For your information, it was as much in Brazil as anywhere else. I'd lay you odds, in fact, that I've spent far more of my life in this country than you have.

Secondly, you don't have the slightest idea if I'm Canadian or not. Don't assume.

Third, you couldn't even define "Canadian" (or "Brazilian" values) if they ran up and bit you on the ass. As far as I've seen here, your only definition of said values are "they are whatever I say they are and f**k any historical or anthropological evidence to the contrary".

Fourth, regarding your comment that "we see others as Brazilians regardless of how they look", that is so full of s**t I don't even know where to begin to start. Birth in a nation does not necessarily pass you its culture, nor is that the only way to acquire culture. If that were the case, you wouldn't be writing in English.

Finally, you do know that the universe doesn't change to fit your whims, right Abe? In our several run arounds on this board, I have never defende the idea that race and culture are intrinsically linked. In fact, I've gone out of my way to show, repeatedly, that they are not and that both are, in fact, historically bounded and political concepts, not natural "essences".

There is no way in hell that point can have escaped you. It certainly hasn't escaped the other readers of this forum. So given that you keep on insisting upon something that is very blantantly and manifestly untrue (to whit, that I believe in an essentialist linkage between race and culture), you reveal yourself to be a demagogue. And a rather simple-minded one at that.

There are many shades between two extremes. If you were Brazilian you would catch that very quickly.


So if you are indeed Brazilian and that is indeed true, why do repeatedly insist in dividing the world between those poles? As Roberto da Matta has often pointed out, traditional Brazilian non-dichotic thinking isn't simply an excercize in recognizing shades of grey, it's a cultural preference for an entirely different third option. When you say things like "There always will be a better approach in a given context", you are definitely not working within that cultural context. You are, in fact, apeing the very American dichotic approach you claim to despise. smilies/cheesy.gif

What all your arguments boil down to, Janer - I mean Abe - is "Things are the way they are because I believe that is so. And those who do not believe as I do must be diametrically opposed to me". This is why you simply cannot fathom an approach to race and culture that is not either a) what you believe is the norm in Brazil or b) what you believe is the norm in the States.

Face it, Abe: you're as dichotic a thinker as they come.







Macunaima
written by dnbaiacu, March 12, 2008
We have to be realistic Macun
Come on now . There has to be some values. Some basic moral standard everyone can agree on. If nothing else, the "Golden Rule" . Which I am sure is pretty standard in most cultures. If people only did something that simple.. Treat others as you would want to be treated ,we wouldn't have an issue based on the article by Dr W. to blog about.
At some point man has to agree to adhere to a set of values that would benefit everyone on this planet. The problems that exist with injustices and inequities of every kind is precisely why we do need a standard set of values. History hasn't proven that we can peacefully co-exist without a standard set of values for all. That all should strive for.Every has different values which sometime incredibly clash and violently. This is the problem.

Whose values?...We have to let the Creator be the judge of that. And that is if we believe one exists. And that's another thing.. Some believe a Creator exists .. Others don't. And yet others aren't sure. And those that believe in a Creator hold varied concepts on its personna.

I am trying to reach middle ground with Abe. The point where he gets to "values" is something we can't ignore. And to raise the question "whose values" is just going to open up another Pandoras Box. And of course it is popular these days to pretend that humanity will be ok without a standardized set of morals across the board that apply to everyon. And that ONLY because it implies that we somehow have a Higher Power to answer to. . The one that made this "moral code" . And of course no one will agree or want to agree to WHO or WHAT that just might be.
So naturally we stay stuck here. This is basically the end of the thread because no one is going to go there. It would just be too politically incorrect and arrogant.
If we say everyone can have their own values. Well, what 's wrong with ANY of Abes ideas. If he has enough people that share his views . He has created his own world according to Abe and his followers. The problem remains that he and his followers share the planet with the rest of us. And each of "us" have our own VALUES .
We are in gridlock here. Naturally..
I wonder why?..... And this is precisely where we should all look in the mirror and say.."Duh"?.....
Staying in gridlock over "Whose Values" , is like saying it is ok do suicide bombings. Genital mutilation is ok. It's ok to invade a country on a false premise of hiding weapons of mass destruction. That Apartheid is ok. That genocide is ok.. Afterall they are all just products of different "cultures or races or ethnicities , or whatever you want to call it, SETS OF VALUES.
Clear this up Macun , if you can. If not , we can all just continue to look in the mirror and say ,, "Duh"?
Maciun
written by dnbaiacu, March 12, 2008
No , samba is not better than waltz. I'm not agreeing with Abe on that. Although I don't remember him saying that. LOL , just had to clear that up real quick.
ZMe Sculpa
written by Simpleton, March 12, 2008
Sorry - didn't mean to bring up the WHOSE e WHAT's (or maybe I did but subhuman-conciously). I think we all can agree it's beyond Abe to even contemplate. As to no one having the bolls, prying mind, arrogance and tendency towards political incorrectness to go there - Eu Ten.

Since we are not so advanced, I say let's wimp out and be democratic about it (or pragmatic at the very least). Anyone willing to vote for adopting Forrest's values as the baseline set? Not much of a "moral code" ring to it - more like what is right is just plain right (although there is that thing about there being no aetheists in foxholes that might be used to irrationally reject some or all that he's atuned with). Add a motto or two - say Don't Tread On Me, Right Makes Might, and there you have it - a bandwagon everyone can jump on. Problem with Abe is that there is this persistant cranking of the bell ringer on the party line and no one is picking up. Some can see that there is probably a good cause / something of meaning underneath it all but it get's a bit grateing / irritating after a while, just like the cultural tendancy to continuously bring up one's educational accomplishments / certifications / etc., etc., by folks from India / Bangladesh / thereabouts for no real reason, and not within the conversational flow of thing - like that somehow in a past era ones "culture" was somehow trained one to feel insecure / underaccomplished / inferior unless one kept openly promoting an association / belonging / possesion of modern day equivalancy to the best of the best.

Boa Noite.
Thaddeus
written by A Brazilian, March 12, 2008
No. It can't be comparatively measured without making a series of arbitrary a priori definitions as to "better" and "worse". It thus cannot be objectively measured.


Not arbitrary, values exist and are objective and based on that we can see that better values lead to better results. If they are objective then they are independent of any culture.

Abe, you obviously don't understand the meaning of "ethnocentric". Ethnocentrism is based on values, not race.


Not really. Ethnic groups include religion, languages, customs and racial characteristics of a certain population and the term is used most of the times to denote all those things together (and I have never even talked about any those things). There's no chance a Hispanic would be considered Caucasian or a Asian an Afro-american just because they happen to live in the USA.

You can't just single one of those characteristics out and use it. Just because I speak English it doesn't mean that I belong to same group as you do. And that's not even what the discussion is about. Not sure why you are taking the conversation this way anyway.

Are you actually telling me to prove a negative, Abe? Science and rationality are positivist: they are based on proof, not disproofs.


I can help you. I said that better values lead to better results in several fields such as science, technology, economy, etc, and that's verifiable in a smaller scale just by taking a look at the performance of students of different backgrounds and in a greater scale in indicators of many countries (not just economy, but also education, the rule of the law, corruption, freedom, etc). That's what I meant. If you disagree then say it so.

Secondly, you don't have the slightest idea if I'm Canadian or not. Don't assume.


You told us once. You are from Quebec, right?

As far as I've seen here, your only definition of said values are "they are whatever I say they are and f**k any historical or anthropological evidence to the contrary".


I would never say anything like this. Defining cultures in simple terms is impossible, despite of what some social scientists think. Can you define yourself in words? You can try by describing yourself phisically or in some other way, but those words will never be the totality of yourself. The same happens with cultures.

That means that defining them and assigning them to a group of people is just a futile exercise (and that's also why you can't deny who you are), because that will always be inaccurate. Which brings to the original article where the author makes a lot of assumptions, that there's a "us" an a "them", that they are different and need special attention. They surely are different from each other, but not in the way the author imagines. Even if we consider "culture" strictly as being a way of communicating symbols through various ways, then those children would belong to the same culture. Then what's the point of his article?

When I refer to "Anglo-saxons" I am referring to ideas usually found among them, like for example the race obsession in the USA. I am not defining them in precise terms, property by property.

(continue)
Thaddeus, part 2
written by A Brazilian, March 12, 2008
Birth in a nation does not necessarily pass you its culture, nor is that the only way to acquire culture. If that were the case, you wouldn't be writing in English.


You can't acquire all kinds of culture just by reading a few books. For example, growing up in a certain country gives you a clear idea of the scale of values usually adopted by the people and symbols used and lots of other things. It also gives you some automatic responses, like seeing things first always through a certain point of view. For example, you insist in racializing everything, and you don't even have a clue that in other countries things don't work that way. You grew up in a place where this is so natural, so automatic and always assumed to be true that you don't even question it. It is like second nature. In Brasil the most proeminent thing that seems to be implanted in us as soon as we are born is to act extra nice to everyone and try to make friends, which in turn makes Brazilians look shallow and false. This is so forced around here, and assumed to be a fact of life that nobody questions it. All of this has historical roots of course, in the US it is the brutal racism of a recent past, in Brazil is the colonial era where the power was concentrated in the hands of a few, so you always needed the support or friendship of someone important and powerful if you wanted to go up in life.

So if you are indeed Brazilian and that is indeed true, why do repeatedly insist in dividing the world between those poles?


Either you didn't read what I have written or you are just doing some wishful thinking. If we have such variety in Brazil then a comparison would not be between two options only, but between many. Then we would have a first, a second, a third, etc. How could that be dichotomy?
Still Avoiding Whose Values....
written by dnbaiacu, March 12, 2008
No one wants to go there... smilies/grin.gif But everone is getting some good points in just same. Abe is not all wrong. Neither is Macun or TB.

I just want to comment that "institutionalized racism" such as that is found in the U.S fuels and is the basis for capitalism. It is really that simple. And to soothe their immoral consciences the founding fathers had to declare their slaves as inferior to justify what they sub-consciously knew to be wrong. The form of slavery adopted by these so-called nations with Christian values was inexcusable and they knew this.

Abe Said

"I said that better values lead to better results in several fields such as science, technology, economy, etc, and that's verifiable in a smaller scale just by taking a look at the performance of students of different backgrounds and in a greater scale in indicators of many countries (not just economy, but also education, the rule of the law, corruption, freedom, etc). That's what I meant. If you disagree then say it ."

Sorry, but No one intelligent can disagree with this. So we can say we are in gridlock now. There are no superior or inferior cultures . But what they can achieve will be limited to its adherence to "certain" VALUES.
DN
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 12, 2008
At some point man has to agree to adhere to a set of values that would benefit everyone on this planet. The problems that exist with injustices and inequities of every kind is precisely why we do need a standard set of values.


Never going to happen, Dn. And you're saying we should be realistic? C'mon...

It's a sociological reality, well explored by Emile Durkheim and Max Weber, that as societies become more complex and - particularly - as labor becomes more specialized, values inevitably become more fragmented.

If sociology has proven anything, it's proven this one point.

The only way to return to a society where one would have homogenous values instead of a plurality of values would be to reverse the urban and technological revolutions, accept an average life span of about 40 years and cut the population of the planet by a factor of 20. Now, if you're willing to say "That's what we gotta do", then I submit you're cold-bloodedly contemplating a massacre some 1000 times bigger than anything Adolf Hitler thought of.

But if you LIKE using computers, driving cars, eating pretty much whatever you want and living to an average age of 70, then you need a society with an intense and specialized division of labor. Said society will inevitably develop a plurality of values, if for no other reason than the fact that peoples' day-to-day lives will be radically different from their co-citizens'.

I am trying to reach middle ground with Abe.


That's nice, but why would you want to? The guy's basically a fascist. Halfway to a fool doesn't make you any wiser.

Staying in gridlock over "Whose Values" , is like saying it is ok do suicide bombings. Genital mutilation is ok. It's ok to invade a country on a false premise of hiding weapons of mass destruction. That Apartheid is ok. That genocide is ok.. Afterall they are all just products of different "cultures or races or ethnicities , or whatever you want to call it, SETS OF VALUES.


You misapprehend cultural relativism and its role in the social sciences.

Cultural relativism is not and was never intended to be a philosophy for living life and any one who says otherwise knows very little about it. It is intended to be a scientific tool, used to better understand cultures and socieites. Weber, Durkheim, Marx, Parsons, Geertz... All the big social scientists of the past 200 years have been quite clear on one point: it is impossible to live a valueless life. One must inevitably choose one's path.

However, that is a moral, ethical and political decision, not a scientific one. As I've said above several times, Abe can believe whatever the hell he wants. I expect him to. No one here - and certainly not me - is proposing that people wallow around in a supposedly valueless existence. However, it is incredibly dangerous to NATURALIZE one's values, to presume that they are superior and anointed by God, Mother Nature, or whatever transhuman force you choose to name. WE create our values, not God, and we are responsible for what they do, not Mother Nature.

So the point of relativism ISN'T - as Abe would have it ans as you apparently believe - to live a valueless life. The point of relativism is to take responsability for one's values and realize that they are created by mankind, not God, and as such, can and do change.

I happen to believe in sort of a bastardized positivism, though I'm quite aware of all its faults as a philosophy. I am aware that it appeals to ME and works for ME and I do not require - as Abe seems to do with his philosophy - that it be understood as THE SUPERIOR HUMAN VALUE SET OF ALL TIME.

To me, there's a very large and crucial difference between knowing one's values and realizing that they are just one set among many and presuming that one's values needs must be shoved down the rest of the world's throat for "peace", "harmony", or "progress" to occur.

Abe says....

You told us once. You are from Quebec, right?


You are a real hoot, Abe. Go back and look at what I said. No, I did not say I was from Quebec. And if I were, it would take a real idiot to run around claiming that I was an Anglo-Saxon, wouldn't it? So either you are being stupid or you are making wild assumptions about me. Either way...
Thaddeus
written by dnbaiacu, March 12, 2008
Thanks for the explanations I 've never heard before on cultural relativism. You are right , a standard set of values is never going to happen . Not without divine intervention.
And it is great that we do all have free-will to choose which values we want and deal with the consequences . And continue to evaluate the consequences based on our adopted values and adjust as nature would have it .
No I don't agree that relativism is leading a valueless life. I agree with you. I learned a lot. I don't believe in shoving ones values down someone elses throat . But instead "demonstrating" your values and letting others choose for themselves if your values are ones to aspire to.
This has been a very interesting analysis of culture and values. It was great! I digress. I am glad the Truth is so simple. And that it is found ONLY by those looking for it.
Thought I'd get back on topic and write about my day teaching at UFF...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 12, 2008
...particularly as I know that it'll really frost Abe's nuts to hear about how I'm warping all those young Brazilian minds in accordance with the CIA's Master Plan to Dominate Brazil. Buarararararara.... smilies/cheesy.gif

Today I taught a pedagogy course of beginning freshmen. It's still the second week of class, so I'm basically opening the class for discussion of terms and topics which will come up repeatedly over the semester. Monday, we talked about A.L. Kroeber's concept of the "superorganic" and how it applies to social scientific study.

Today, we talked about racism.

As always, I found myself completely blown away about how uneducated even these relatively elite students (it's a federal school, after all) are about the topic and how very difficult it is for them to talk about it with any precision.

Let's get one thing out of the way though, first: contrary to Abe's ridiculous remarks about what Brazilians believe, most recent studies show (including a just published one by the Ministry of Education and Culture) that 80% of Brazilians believe that Brazil has deep problems with racism. Only 20% of Brazilians believe, however, that they personally act in a racist manner.

Of the 30 students, all are women. 2 are self-described as "black" (and would probably be described as such by pretty much anyone) while another 15 or claim to be "brown" or some other euohemism for "mixed" (and would probably also bee seen as such by most Brazilians). The rest are "white" and would probably be seen as such by anyone this side of a deep-fried U.S. Southern good ol' racist.

Among my students, all but one claimed that Brazil was a racist country and it didn't take very long at all for them to bring up (entirely unprompted, I might add) a score of examples from their day-to-day lives which show that, contrary to Abe's claims, many Brazilians do indeed see race and color when they look at their fellow citizens.

The stories that were told were quite shocking and would be classified as racist events pretty much anywhere in the world. One of the girls who classifies herself as "black" says just last weekend she was working at a children's party and a 12 year old child told her he didn't want her to touch him because she was a "filthy black monkey". Another girl (this one self-described as "brown") said that her fiancé's family wasn't at all happy about her color and had pressured her boy to ditch her for a white girl. None of the students contested these stories. In fact, as soon as they came up, hands shot up in the air. People had PLENTY of stories to tell about their personal run-ins with racism and racial prejudice or about things that they had witnessed.

This is, of course, not the first time that I've discussed this topic with a class and the results have always been the same. So this is one of the reasons why I give Abe the big raspberry when he claims that Brazilians don't see race. Almost any black or brown Brazilian will tell you: we certainly do. So basically, for me to believe Abe's tripe about Brazil having no problem with race, I'd have to ignore the stories and words of every black and brown Brazilian I've ever met, inclusing my wife who - while she hates quotas and dislikes racial classifying intensely - could tell Abe stories that would curl his hair...

All that's by the by, however, and many, many people - both gringos and Brazilians - have had similar experiences when talking with Brazilians about race. The only people this should surprise are those Americans who seem to think that the "average Brazilian" is someone like Abe who has a near-religious faith in Brazil's lack of racism. Fact: 80% of Brazilians are quite awarer of the racism in Brazil and can fill your ear with stories if you choose to listen.

But what really interests me is how clumsily my students talk about the topic.

...continued...
...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 12, 2008
First of all, there was a general confusion as to racism and discrimination based on prejudice in general. The kids are liable to call anything "racism" as long as it postulates the essential inferiority of another human being. This means, for example, that ethnocentrism (the belief that others are inferior due to their values), sexism (the belief in inferiority due to gender), heterocentrism (the belief that homsexuals are inferior), nativism (the belief that foreigners are inferior) and even simple personal dislike are likely to be labled as "racism". In other words, they feel it is wrong to discriminate based on prejudice and "racism" has become a simple synonym for said discrimination in general. There is little recognition of racism as a specific form of discrimination.

So we got down to brass tacks, defining what racism is. We came up with three definitions. The first was a vulgar, popular definition (the general "discrimination = racism" view detailed above). The second was scientific racism, which can best be described as the belief that humanity is divided into discrete, stable, biologically defined subspecies with specific behaviors. I explained to them that this sort of racism didn't necessarily have to postulate inferior or superior sub-species, but that it generally did, setting up races in a heirarchical order as "more or less evolved".

Fewer of the students had heard of this definition, but a significant number had. One of the black students, for example, told about how she had had health pronlems precisely because of scientific racism. She suffered from a disease which her doctor assured her she couldn't have because "only middle aged white women get that disease". She had to go to two other doctors to get a proper diagnosis before she could get the treatment that she needed. She correctly identified what she had passed through as scientific racism. Most of the students seemed to grasp the concept though, as per usual, there was all sorts of discussion about what made Kenyans run faster, sickle cell anemia, and is humanity biologically homogenous? (No, we aren't. But seeing biological patterns in human populations is not at all the same thing as believing in the existence of discrete and stable sub-species - i.e. races).

So finally I pulled out the biggie, which I knew was going to confuse them: what I like to call "the American sociological definition of racism". This definition became popular in the States in the 1960-70s-80s and it basically postulates that racism and prejudice are linked, but discrete, concepts. According to this view of things, racism is prejudice plus social power - institutionalized prejudice in other words. As per usual, this concept completely flummoxed almost all the students and it needed to be discussed in depth. They couldn't see, for example, how someone could be acting in a racist manner and yet, personally, not be prejudiced. This seemed to completely be beyond their ken and experience, even though I gave them several examples of how it worked and they agreed that said examples were valid.

...continued...
...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 12, 2008
All this underlines points that were made some 50 years ago by Oracy Nogueira in his discussion on how prejudice works in the U.S. and Brazil and it brings up some points regarding why it's so hard for Americans and Brazilians to have a dialog on this issue.

In the first place, Brazilians tend to personalize prejudice: it is seen as an individual and not a social problem. On the few occassions when it is looked at sociologically, it is analyzed in very superficial forms. A generic "society" supposedly informs people that other groups are inferior, but most Brazilians, for the life of them, couldn't tell you how this is done or point to a clear example (Xuxa is about the only thing that ever comes up and that rarely).

Americans would be wise to not believe that this reluctance to socialize racism is a result of inferior intellect, repression, or (as many black americans have said on this board) generalized "backwardness". As Oracy points out (and as Da Matta and Sérgio Buarque de Holanda have also shown) Brazilians tend to personalize EVERYTHING. This is the country of the "cordial man", after all.

Secondly, most Brazilians seem to have an aversion to essentializing, something which most Americans seem to prefer. They are not willing to believe that simply because someone fits into a social category he or she needs must act a certain way. This makes it very hard for them to believe in the idea that all blacks or all whites are necessarily "the enemy" or what have. It goes against the grain of five hundred years of assiduous cultivation of personal relationships as a means of obtaining social advancement.

But thirdly, and most importantly, none of this precludes Brazilians from grasping the fact that there are plenty of people around them who, given the right circumstances, will cheerfully exclude or discriminate against other based upon supposedly essential characteristics. The recognition is that this sort of thing may be either an indication of a permanent character flaw in the discriminating individual, or of a cynical manipulation of certain categories in order to generate prejudice against people for political or personal reasons. Such discrimination, however, is widely recognized and is generally labled as racism.

This means that Americans who believe Brazilians don't perceive racism are wrong: most Brazilians do. They just happen to perceive and react to it in different ways than most Americans.

The ironic thing here is that Abe and many of the Black American activists he dislikes have something in common: they both believe that if racism isn't exactly like and perceived in exactly the same way in Brazil as it is in the States, then it can't properly be labeled "real racism".
Thaddeus Blanchette
written by João da Silva, March 12, 2008
Thought I'd get back on topic and write about my day teaching at UFF...


Dr.Blanchette, you went up by several notches in my esteem. It does require lots of patience to teach the urchins who do not want to learn anything. Even though I am not an educator, my wife and many of my friends are and I know what it is to be in a class room full of spoiled brats.Keep up your good work, though you may find it tiresome and thankless at times.

Very Good Thaddeus
written by dnbaiacu, March 13, 2008
I am going to have to "file" what you just wrote. LOL smilies/grin.gif. I laugh really hard because as a half afro-brazilian and half afro-american I can relate to the total confusion in my own head as it relates to this issue. Racism does have many forms and it is all ugly no matter the twists and perceptions about it. I have noticed firsthand dealing with my family that racism and prejudice are indeed perceived differently. But I conclude that it all ends up being the same., destructive. Whether you are the perpetrator or the victim.
Here is my interesting experience. One in which I felt like I was time warped back to the 1600's.

I am paper bag brown in shade. I am in line at "Perinis" market ( a high-end food store ) I thought it was pretty obvious to the "Baiana" (who by the way was darker than me) and to the other few white looking customers that I was next in line at the Acaraje counter. I was taken aback to see her act as if she instinctively know to wait on the white customer first. !!!!????
I have never experienced anything like this in the U.S.The originators you’d say of this type of situation . I was so shocked that I don't think I remember saying anything. Although I think I did make it known that I was next after I snapped out of my shock and the other customer also acknowledged , or more or less admitted and aquiesed to the fact that I was in fact next only “after” I did say something. Only after noticing I had an English did she realize what she did and apologized.
Same case scenario almost while trying to enter a coastal restaurant in Salvador. The dark complexioned security “insisted” that the restaurant was full. (and yes it was full of lighter skinned to white customers) , But I saw plenty of seats for me and my cousin.
It just so happened at that moment the host (about my complexion) passed and I spoke my mind in Portuguese , (to which they were shocked) yet with an English accent , by then discernable to the host. The security guard thought I was “pretending” to be a tourist and apologized. The host let me in explaining that they have “theft” problem. I was floored. Racial profiling at its finest.

Now this may not be exactly classified as racism because it was done against me by people similar to me in color , But it sure is an example of the fruits of just maybe "institutionalized racism" in Brasil that has obviously been” internalized” by the victims of the system and played out in a form of self-hatred and /or just blindly following the "system". A “system” that obviously does exist whether or not it is acknowledged or not.

THIS is exactly where Dr W's article comes into play. !!! This madness can only begin to be eradicated by an education referential to the ethnic, cultural , racial, whatever you want to call it, make-up of the students in the classroom. THIS is where some of Abes VALUES platform is desperately needed along with your platform that racism , irrespecting its form, is alive and well in Brasil.
My third noteworthy experience of a more common twist was that at Club Med I am again , "in line" at a buffet as a customer ( could not have been mistaken as an employee, because I had nothing remotely similar to a uniform on) and a white brazilian bogarts his way in front of me to take from the same dish I intended to serve myself from. With a definite air of "privlege" that I detected. (with the American experience ,,you know it when you see it and feel it) . He was shocked and apologetic when I put him in his place . Like he couldn’t believe I had the audacity to call him out on it. Shocked that I did. And probably more shocked or embarassed when he realized that I was native English speaker "checking him" in Portuguese. It appeared that ONLY at that point he realized he had made a mistake.

It just made me cry to myself , “What in the world are my cousins dealing with?!, This is colonial behavior!” I never experienced anything like this in the U.S probably because I was raised in the north of the country. And my mother , the brazilian apparently knew where to and where not to go in Salvador. So I never got exposure to this in Brasil until venturing out on my own as an adult.

These examples are proof that racist prejudice permeates the "psyche" of many brazilians( I won’t say average, to be fair) black, white or pardo.

This will only end with proper education on the subject and dealing with the issue on a grade school level appropriately. This cannot go on ignored . And if it does take looking at a U.S model to address the issue. So be it! At least it is a start .
Does it really matter "how" Brazilians perceive racism or prejudice? Just PLEASE educate "just as well," those whom it affects most detrimentally.
...
written by bo, March 13, 2008
In other words, they feel it is wrong to discriminate based on prejudice and "racism" has become a simple synonym for said discrimination in general. There is little recognition of racism as a specific form of discrimination.



I've noticed that. Brazilians that I know do indeed use the word racism for just about any type of predjudice whether it's a form of predjudice based on race or not.
Black on Black Racism
written by adrianerik, March 13, 2008
It shouldn't be a surprise that black people discriminate against other black people. Sexism is usually internalized by WOMEN and women become the primary enforcers of sexism. Racist values and imagery are internalized by a good number of black people and the hierarchy suggested by these images and values are enforced by BLACK people themselves. A study published in the New York Times (about two years ago) pointed out the existence racism in American society. This was the scientific racism (the belief that that there are set behaviour traits in human beings based upon race). Here is where "scientific racism" clouds the ability to expose the real destructive apparatus of racism. Of the black "racists" (scientifically speaking) who believed that behaviour was based upon race, more than 60% believed that Asians, whites and Jews had superior 'behaviour' than their own people. This was in contrast to the other groups who believed that that their behaviour was superior to black people. Both groups would be considered racist but the definition fails to take into account the pathological dichotomy of a black person whose racism is against the very image they see in the mirror. Brazil has so banalized the definition of racism that it is like the captured leprechaun, who was forced to tie a yellow ribbon around the one tree in the forest under which was buried the pot of gold. He promised his captors that he would not return to untie the ribbon. When the captors returned to the forest they couldn't find the tree because the leprechaun had returned and tied a yellow ribbon around every single tree. In this way the teeth of racist structures are hidden. Situations such as the inability of managers at SHOPPING BARRA, SHOPPING IGUATEMI and SHOPPING SALVADOR in Salvador to hire any black people in a city that is 80% black is muted because the policeman who smashes a black youth in the mouth or the drugstore clerk who skips over you in favor of a white person is also black. In whose interest is that policeman acting? In whose interest is that clerk acting? Their own ingrained superiority? Where, in their socialization process, did they determine that this individual who shares my color is lesser than this other lighter individual. From church? From school? From television? From magazines? From O Globo? Academicians like Frantz Fanon (BLACK SKINS WHITE MASKS) and W.E.B. DuBois (THE SOULS OF BLACK FOLKS) and THE CRISIS OF THE BLACK BOURGEOISE shows that there is a RACISM (imbedded in the imagery of social, cultural and educational institutions) that does supports a defined social group as being superior and others inferior and that there are racist 'agents' and racist 'victims'.

Who cares about racists if they have no social, cultural or educational support? (A racist without racism?). If the images and values imbedded in the institutions of a society (schools, church, media etc) spew healthy images and associate the potential for virtuous behaviour with every member of their society then a racist in that society is a victim to their own internal sickness. Their racist behavior (not being supported by society) would bring them, maybe, a smack in the mouth. To paraphrase Zora Neale Hurston "A white man who doesn't like me must be crazy because I am all of that!"

I don't know if we can eliminate racists but we can expose, accuse, attack and suggest alternatives to those apparatus of society that support racists. I sometimes wonder if Brazil is too quick to attack racists (in the banal way that racists are defined) but not interested in attacking racism.
True, Adrianerik
written by dnbaiacu, March 13, 2008
Unfortunately it won't happen anytime soon in Brasil. It is barely happening if happening at all in the U.S.. In fact it is going backwards with "reality shows" and the glamorization of hip/hop.
And this is where the "values" issue comes in. The State is only going to do so much , and only "that" after much protest. And worse for Brasil there is not much of a protest culture in Brasil. We can thank Catholicism for that.
I have seen the youth protest impressively against higher bus fares in Salvador in 2004 I believe. But they've since been beaten down (morally speaking). General public is paying a ridiculous 2rs for bus fare.
(got off the subject)
But yes racism IS sociallyand culturally supported in Brasil through the media and education,(or lack thereof).
A lot can be learned from Blanchettes last essay. It is true that Brasil doesn't have an "us and them" system or mentality.More so "haves and have nots". It's all about getting in good with who has the "condicoes". And marrying and dating "up" in color by any means necessary. Brasil is still "there". And it won't change anytime soon.
Hopefully with the influx now of "investment" in Brasil there will be gracious "individuals" the financially support and target "specific disadvantaged " groups. Similar to the founding and support of Historically Black Colleges & Universities in the U.S. But then you a talking about private enterprise in a country that has still a way to go in being business friendly. Particularly "small business" friendly.
Not to mention that there are a lot of people opposed to these ideas of change. You'd be surprised by how many people that a quota system would NOT affect one way or the other are opposed to it. This I fail to understand.As if it were some sort of threat. Hell, if you are already "privleged" as a racist society dictates "part" of the population has to be in order for racism/prejudice to exist. What difference does it make if "some" others are given an oppurtunity? Pure selfishness! And here we go with "values" again. In this world some situations have to be made fair by "FORCE". It is unfortunate but true.

If so much of the propaganda we hear these days about Brasil "coming up"is true. Then there should be no problem sharing a piece of the pie.
Slowly eliminating affirmative action such as what is presently going on in the U.S . is largely in part due to the fact that there is less of the pie to go around. And the "privleged" are feeling threatened.
You'll hear the argument that we don't need U.S. models to solve our problem, (our problem that doesn't exist). But that's just pure anti-U.S hog wash.
It would be nice for people to get over anti-U.S sentiment. It is so superficial. The U.S is OWNED by the Federal Reserve Bank. Whose strongest ties financially are in LONDON ENGLAND. Britain never let the U.S go behind the scenes. So the U.S is just a plantation. And that is becoming more obvious with each passing day..Everyone wants to create this "enemy" Do your research U.S haters. It is Britain you need to gripe about. The pound is worth more than the euro , but we never here anything about that do we?

Brasil is getting all happy about the credit it is being given. But it is only the next plantation to conquer. And you can thank your overseer Lula for that!
I am on this tirade because I hate to hear anti U.S sentiment in areas where it is not deserved. Especially in the area of civil rights. Brasil does have race issues. And instead of finding ways to prove and pretend it doesn't exist. They'd be more productive finding ways to "capitalize" on it. It is all going to come down to that anyway.
Yes! Bring it on with the lawsuits. The books. The movies. The discussion. Put some MONEY in peoples pockets. And that way the downtrodden will be lifted UP!
Here we go again...
written by A Brazilian, March 13, 2008
No, Thaddeus. You are Anglo-saxon to the core, and as I said in another comment, you incorporated this racialized view of the world so much that you will see it everywhere no matter what. You simply can't see things in another way. Your "findinds" aren't there because they exist, but because you want them to exist.

A few comments.

Let's get one thing out of the way though, first: contrary to Abe's ridiculous remarks about what Brazilians believe, most recent studies show (including a just published one by the Ministry of Education and Culture) that 80% of Brazilians believe that Brazil has deep problems with racism. Only 20% of Brazilians believe, however, that they personally act in a racist manner.


This doesn't prove anything. It is politically correctness, plus the definition of "racism" in Brazil (a lot more vague than the American one) and the usual Brazilian over self-criticism. If you ask them if politicians are corrupt you will see that the vast majority will say so, if you ask them if Brazilian women cheat their husbands more than in other countries then the vast majority will also say yes, and so on, even if they have no data to prove either way.

Among my students, all but one claimed that Brazil was a racist country and it didn't take very long at all for them to bring up (entirely unprompted, I might add) a score of examples from their day-to-day lives which show that, contrary to Abe's claims, many Brazilians do indeed see race and color when they look at their fellow citizens.


Let me see, a gringo talking about racism and they "unpromptedly" came up with examples. Interesting. First, anecdotal evidence (a friend of a friend of a cousin of mine said..). Second, they were trying to find something in common to socialize with you. Third, they are worried about grades.

This doesn't prove anything. I could come up with plenty of "examples" as well, but I guess those don't serve your theories, right?

Almost any black or brown Brazilian will tell you: we certainly do. So basically, for me to believe Abe's tripe about Brazil having no problem with race, I'd have to ignore the stories and words of every black and brown Brazilian I've ever met, inclusing my wife who - while she hates quotas and dislikes racial classifying intensely - could tell Abe stories that would curl his hair... /quote]

You invert the causes and effects. These aren't findings, but the reaction to YOUR actions. You are the one bringing up the topic of racism, therefore the will recall "cases" (in the very Brazilian vague way).

For you to have an idea, most Brazilians never heard of scientific racism, nordic theory, racial purity, anti-miscigenation laws, racist movements and organizations, etc. They actually think that the Nazis just woke up one day and decided they were better than others, and the problem for Brazilians is that it is "bad" to think that you are better than anybody else, not in a racial way, but in ANY way. It's funny in the professional life, because if you imply that others aren't as good as you this is seen as a mortal sin. Once I almost got mob-lynched by a bunch of Brazilians because I said something like "If someone doesn't learn English it's because he doesn't want to. English is too easy". The world fell down! Everybody in the room looked at me with the eyes full of rage and from that point and on nothing I said would be taken into consideration.

What Brazilians don't know is how "racism" work in other countries, especially the US. Racism is not so irrational as some say. Until some time ago it was accepted as a scientific fact and that became so ingrained in the popular culture that even today some people believe in it. They have no clue, for example, that for a racist the Portuguese, considered white for any Brazilian and usually referred to as the "evil Europeans" (and Europe is used to refer to all European countries as a whole, as if they looked all the same) by the left, aren't "white". They make no distinction between a Swedish and a Spanish, physically speaking.

It's pointless to take Brazilians talking about racism seriously, like you do, and draw conclusions from it.

I could come up with a bunch of examples of friends and others saying the exact opposite of what you are saying. What would that prove? For example, a friend of mine that would be classified as black moved South to a city that were mostly populated by European descendents, and later he invited me there because he said the women were cool. How could he ever reach that conclusion if there was racism? How could he ever have girlfriends or a social life if racism is so blatant as you speak? And he could be anything, but lonely there.

The way social scientists work is an insult to science.
Here we go again... (2)
written by A Brazilian, March 13, 2008
One of the black students, for example, told about how she had had health pronlems precisely because of scientific racism. She suffered from a disease which her doctor assured her she couldn't have because "only middle aged white women get that disease"


How is that racism? Some diseases affect some more than others.

The kids are liable to call anything "racism" as long as it postulates the essential inferiority of another human being.


This is another cultural aspect of Brazilians that you would know if you were Brazilian. This is getting tiresome. Why do Americans are more interested into fitting a square in a circle than actually learning something? This is the real mistery here.
Baiacu
written by A Brazilian, March 13, 2008
(with the American experience ,,you know it when you see it and feel it)


This tells a lot about any American's experiece in Brazil, entirely subjective based on what they were taught to see, as I have pointed out about Thaddeus.

I was writing a text for you about your remarks about my notion of values. I think you understood it well, but didn't quite get it completely. Yes, with the proper values we can evolve, but by "proper" I mean real values, objetive ones. Values do exist and are objetive and based on that we can seek the best. By values I don't mean rituals or going to the church every Sunday, but more general concepts that are appliable to anybody, regardless of origin, such as notions of good and evil. Is it good to perform human sacrifices? That's one example of something universal and not relative.

I was going to explain it, but then I had to stop to do something else. I don't have the time now.

The problem with moral relativism, as Thaddeus and other leftwing nuts promote, is not that you are automatically agreeing with genital multilation, you can be moral relavitist and disagree with that. The problem is that it relativizes the truth, i.e., virtually everything can be "true" or "right" depending on your point of view and that's what gives legitimacy to the Maquiaveli's Prince or the Strategy and Tactic of Lenin. In other words, you can lie, but the lie can be truth.

That doesn't mean that moral relativists are immoral and will lie as much as they can, but it means that in such a society there's no axis and it's a bunch of people together. Who wins? Who has power. So the prevalent "truth" in a relativist society is that of the whoever is in power, and can be for good or bad.

It's right to affirm that there are advanced cultures (techonologically, morally, scientific, etc) and backward ones. Brazil is a bit of both, but it seems that the tendency is to backwards because of the evangelization performed by moral relativists that validate promiscuous behavior and little value for education among the general population. They won't achive more not because they can't, but because they don't think they need to. After all everything is "equally valid", so we can have beer.

Saying that values aren't objective, just like childishly does Thaddeus, is the similar to saying that numbers don't exist because they are nowhere to be found. Who gave us numbers? Shouldn't we use numbers because we don't know who is their "creator"?
João da Silva, DN and Adrian
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 13, 2008
It does require lots of patience to teach the urchins who do not want to learn anything. Even though I am not an educator, my wife and many of my friends are and I know what it is to be in a class room full of spoiled brats.


You're being a bit harsh there, João.

At UFF, the Education Department gets a lot of smart, lower middle class and even lower class kids. I wouldn't qualify my students there as spoiled brats.

In fact, the students I teach at the private school where I work are often way more spoiled, even though they are generally poorer.

A working or middle class kid passes the vestibular and gets into a public school, they know they are good and they also know they are competing with Patricinha and Mauricinho and will have to work twice as hard, juggling jobs, school and family commitments. You don't get much arrogance there.

Stick the same kid in a private school, where s/he pays tuition and it becomes immediately obvious that s/he's in the top 10% of the studetn body... Well, that kid is likely to soon develop a very inflated notion of themselves and will start doing stupid ass s**t like stop reading, skipping out on classes and tests... etc.

I'm a FAN of Brazil's public system.It doesn't need to be destroyed, just somewhat democratized. And I don't think that quotas are the way to do that.

DN says...
Who cares about racists if they have no social, cultural or educational support?


Precisely. Without institutional and social support, prejudices are generally annoyances and at worst a personal tragedy.

This is, in my view of things, one of the reasons Abe is so browned off by the discussion of race in Brazil. It was never discussed when he was a kid and things were just FINE (at least for him) back then, so who the hell are we to discuss it now?

Whether he knows it or not, I suspect that what's really emotionally motivating Abe is the fact that he knows he's living in a country where the genie can't be put back into the bottle. With his "there's no racism in Brazil" rap, he's in a very small minority among Brazilians and that's probably a new and unsettling experience for him.

Adrian brings up Fanon's "Black Skin, White Masks" which is one of my personal faves. Anyone who wants to look into the work of a fantastic Brazilian scholar who covers much the same ground as Fanon, but in a Brazilian historical context, should look into Laura Moutinho's new book "Razão, Cor e Desejo". Simply excellent.

Thaddeus....
written by dnbaiacu, March 13, 2008
Please DON"T waste you skills with A Brazilian. Once he started talking about a black in Southern Brasil with a girlfriend.....? ..

What I get from his last posting is this.. Brazilians haven't been TAUGHT enough . EDUCATED enough. To know that racism exist. In other words, ignorance has been bliss for them. That is of course until non-brazilians have them "taste the forbidden fruit". smilies/cry.gif

A Brazilian, PLEASE just stick with your VALUES platform. This is where you win..All this other stuff is making you seem whacky dude.
Abie baby
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 13, 2008
Let me see, a gringo talking about racism and they "unpromptedly" came up with examples.


Your faith in our co-citizens intelectual honesty and independence is heartening, Abe. smilies/tongue.gif

First, anecdotal evidence (a friend of a friend of a cousin of mine said..). Second, they were trying to find something in common to socialize with you. Third, they are worried about grades.


Maybe you didn't understand what I wrote: most of these stories were from personal lived experience, not from what "a friend of a friend" said. As for "socializing" with the prof and "being worried about grades"... You haven't been inside of a Brazilian university classroommuch, have you Abe? When the prof asks 40 people to give their opinions on racism in Brazil, does it exist or not, and leaves them to it, the students are hardly "socializing", nor do they have any idea of what the prof himself thinks. In fact, before bringing up the topic, I said I was full-square against quotas. If anything, I expected that that would earn me at least SOME brown-nosing from your ideological colleagues. Only one student bothered to take a stance similar to yours, however.

As for grades.... Given how the course is graded almost entirely on multiple choice exams and papers regarding classical sociologists, there's very little room for me to downgrade anyone for ideological incorrectness, even if I were that big of a bastard.

But the fact that YOU seem to think that it's a professor's roll to downgrade students who don't agree with him tells me a lot about what you'd probably be like as a professor. [shudder]

The way social scientists work is an insult to science.


That comment would probably have a lot more sting if it actually came from a scietnist. But coming as it does from a man who seems to be wholeheartedly committed to fascism - one of the most irrational doctrines to ever have stalked the planet - it's really rather hard for me to get worked up over it, Abe. smilies/cheesy.gif

The problem with moral relativism, as Thaddeus and other leftwing nuts promote, is not that you are automatically agreeing with genital multilation, you can be moral relavitist and disagree with that.


And here's one of the reasons the comment doesn't hurt. We were talking about CULTURAL, not MORAL relativism, Abe. And as you can see, if you'd bother to look, I fully agreed above that moral relativism is impossible and unviable.

So when you accuse me of being "a left wing nut" who "supports moral relativism", you are either showing yourself up as an ignorant ass or a simple liar.

Either way, it's not a good stance to take if you truly want to be popularly acclaimed by the masses as the defender of all that's right and truly Brazilian. smilies/cheesy.gif

Rest assured, Abe, I'll be thinking of you in class tomorrow and laughing my ass off. smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cheesy.gif
Excuse me folks...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 13, 2008
...I have to go off and warp another batch of young growing minds.

Buarararararararara! smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
Thaddeus, learn a little bit Brazilian history please
written by A Brazilian, March 13, 2008
Whether he knows it or not, I suspect that what's really emotionally motivating Abe is the fact that he knows he's living in a country where the genie can't be put back into the bottle. With his "there's no racism in Brazil" rap, he's in a very small minority among Brazilians and that's probably a new and unsettling experience for him.


Thaddeus, the Brazilian history didn't start with you. If I thought that I would have been ignorant. There have always been black movements in Brazil, especially in the time of the civil rights movement in the US. The only difference is that they never managed to achieve anything because their assumptions are fundamentally wrong. People just don't see it in their daily lives, therefore they don't think that's a reason to act.

So what happens today is business as usual, with the difference that some in the government are trying to push something the people isn't asking for. There's no public clamour for any measure, but they do it in the hope of gaining new voters.

If there were as much injustice as anyone like you or like any other militant of a black racist movement of the past or present thought there was then this country would have seen a lot more turbulence. How can the allegedly "50%" of the people stay quiet in front of such "injustice"? Hahahaha. I say "allegedly 50%" because it's only 7% in reality, but the black racists applying some scientific racism Math sum it up to 50% because any non "racially pure" person can't be white in their opinion (but they can be black, which makes it quite illogical). The KKK would be proud of them.

One example for you:

http://forum.educacao.blog.uol...-8953204-0

See the quantity of people opposing it compared to those supporting it. Now see the contents of the comments. Those supporting it use a lot of letftist jargon as "Elite", "Colonizer" and other emotional appeals, such as calling others "selfish", but no argument whatsoever. This is clearly ideologically motivated.

The fact. There was no clamour coming from the people for such action, but it was bureaucratically determined by a few, and it is ideologically motivated.
Thaddeus, you have hit a new low
written by A Brazilian, March 13, 2008
Your texts are usually full of fallacies, but this last one was the lowest so far. For those who haven't caught that, here is a link for a better clarification:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_motive

Basically he is trying to discredit my ideas this way, and in a few others as well. If I had to choose the funniest one I would pick his leftist automatic response of calling a "fascist" anybody that's not a leftist or are not into this "let's go primitive, primitiveness is cool" idea.
Thaddeus, oversimplifying? generalizing?
written by A Brazilian, March 13, 2008
Maybe you didn't understand what I wrote: most of these stories were from personal lived experience, not from what "a friend of a friend" said. As for "socializing" with the prof and "being worried about grades"... You haven't been inside of a Brazilian university classroommuch, have you Abe? When the prof asks 40 people to give their opinions on racism in Brazil, does it exist or not, and leaves them to it, the students are hardly "socializing", nor do they have any idea of what the prof himself thinks. In fact, before bringing up the topic, I said I was full-square against quotas. If anything, I expected that that would earn me at least SOME brown-nosing from your ideological colleagues. Only one student bothered to take a stance similar to yours, however.


It is not that simple. It's not for anybody to go against the tide inside of a group. They certainly know what the professors think, and some students are also ideologically motivated and would defend their ideologies fervorously. A good part would be neutral and would want to avoid controversy, so they would just play along. Only a few would stand against it.

Anyway, your little experiment may be anything, but scientific or some sample from which we can draw conclusions about all Brazilians. Not sure what you meant by mentioning it. Does the majority of your students think this way? That may be. But Brazil isn't a sociology classroom.

That comment would probably have a lot more sting if it actually came from a scietnist. But coming as it does from a man who seems to be wholeheartedly committed to fascism - one of the most irrational doctrines to ever have stalked the planet - it's really rather hard for me to get worked up over it, Abe.


I think everybody can see how "scientific" you are. smilies/smiley.gif

And here's one of the reasons the comment doesn't hurt. We were talking about CULTURAL, not MORAL relativism, Abe.


My commitment is with the truth, I didn't mean to hurt you. Morals and values are inside of what a culture is. What I was saying is that as an evolving culture we must seek the best. Of course this notion is wider than the amoral notion of culture as means of communicating symbols.

What can we learn about primitive culture such as the indigenous or african ones?
Thaddeus
written by Shel, March 13, 2008
Excellent post. My mother is a teacher in Rio and I have a number of family members who teach in public schools. I am glad we have people like you trying to make this situation change once and for all. You nailed the issue: Brazilians in general do take everything personally. In my line of work, I deal with a lot with conflict transformation (centered towards solving environmental disputes). In conflict resolution we never change values or try to solve them. Simply because we learn them as we grow, but what we can change/teach is how we perceive the other.

I have been for the past few weeks working in the Philippines with a particular local community trying to get some peace resolutions related to environmental conservation. Basically, another ethnic group was dumping some toxic waste into the water and this other group lived downstream and had some serious health problems like cancer, respiratory issues etc. I quickly learned that by bringing the issue-specific to the surface (which was years of racial hatred), that the other issues were a lot easier to solve. By going deeply into the racial context, we were able to progress and get all the parties involved at least talking to one another. Any conflict arising today has a history, it can go back thousands of years of just a few centuries or even weeks. Kenya is a good example of deep ingrained racial tensions, whatever happened in the last month or so had roots in history.

Brazil needs desperately to do the same. We need to have an open forum on racial discrimination and how it affects our society. Before we can grow as individuals, as a group, and as a country we need to address what makes us uncomfortable. You cannot build trust on false premises. Unless we are serious about this, many more children will be left out of the loop. A Brazilian mentions that some kids don't want to study, this is true with all children, howeverin Brazil black children are denied education and are forced work (pay a visit to the Northeast or even in Rio, many kids are working long hours in order to survive). Enforcement needs to be taken seriously, hardly anyone gets sent to jail for not sending a kid to school. The social workers are underpaid and overworked. In the end, I truly believe that the system must be changed. I believe that we need a top-down/down-top approach in order to solve racial conflicts in Brazil. Anyone interested should read A nested theory of conflict, and will see that racial conflict is an intertwined problem which does not have boundaries, but it has a beginning. It starts with you and I and it transcends all the way up to the government officials (the system).

One thing is certain, by denying that racial discrimination occurs in Brazil and inside the classrooms, we are in fact neglecting our children. I challenge anyone on this board to think seriously. Will Brazil have a future by denying today's citizens the right to education, health, sanitation, equality under the law? We are signators of the Declaration of Human Rights and it is my opinion that Brazil violates basic human rights. We violate every single article.


Thaddeus
written by Shelly1, March 13, 2008
Excellent post. My mother is a teacher in Rio and I have a number of family members who teach in public schools. I am glad we have people like you trying to make this situation change once and for all. You nailed the issue: Brazilians in general do take everything personally. In my line of work, I deal with a lot with conflict transformation (centered towards solving environmental disputes). In conflict resolution we never change values or try to solve them. Simply because we learn them as we grow, but what we can change/teach is how we perceive the other.

I have been for the past few weeks working in the Philippines with a particular local community trying to get some peace resolutions related to environmental conservation. Basically, another ethnic group was dumping some toxic waste into the water and this other group lived downstream and had some serious health problems like cancer, respiratory issues etc. I quickly learned that by bringing the issue-specific to the surface (which was years of racial hatred), that the other issues were a lot easier to solve. By going deeply into the racial context, we were able to progress and get all the parties involved at least talking to one another. Any conflict arising today has a history, it can go back thousands of years of just a few centuries or even weeks. Kenya is a good example of deep ingrained racial tensions, whatever happened in the last month or so had roots in history.

Brazil needs desperately to do the same. We need to have an open forum on racial discrimination and how it affects our society. Before we can grow as individuals, as a group, and as a country we need to address what makes us uncomfortable. You cannot build trust on false premises. Unless we are serious about this, many more children will be left out of the loop. A Brazilian mentions that some kids don't want to study, this is true with all children, howeverin Brazil black children are denied education and are forced work (pay a visit to the Northeast or even in Rio, many kids are working long hours in order to survive). Enforcement needs to be taken seriously, hardly anyone gets sent to jail for not sending a kid to school. The social workers are underpaid and overworked. In the end, I truly believe that the system must be changed. I believe that we need a top-down/down-top approach in order to solve racial conflicts in Brazil. Anyone interested should read A nested theory of conflict, and will see that racial conflict is an intertwined problem which does not have boundaries, but it has a beginning. It starts with you and I and it transcends all the way up to the government officials (the system).

Part2
written by Shelly1, March 13, 2008
One thing is certain, by denying that racial discrimination occurs in Brazil and inside the classrooms, we are in fact neglecting our children. I challenge anyone on this board to think seriously. Will Brazil have a future by denying today's citizens the right to education, health, sanitation, equality under the law? We are signators of the Declaration of Human Rights and it is my opinion that Brazil violates basic human rights. We violate every single article.
Question for Abe and Thaddeus
written by dnbaiacu, March 13, 2008
How can you tout "values" WITHOUT being "ideological? And just how do you see Brazil? Is it a fair place..(and not to say ANY other place is wholly just)

I''d also like to know what is the difference between cultural relativism and moral cultural relativism? All cultures have their own sets of morals.How does this fit into your discussion?
I am very curious.. Please help me understand
Shelly
written by A Brazilian, March 13, 2008
Will Brazil have a future by denying today's citizens the right to education, health, sanitation, equality under the law?


This is a logical mistake. You make a question whose answer is obvious, but it is not connected to the subject being discussed. The subject is about racism and there's no connection between those things you mentioned and racism. There's no system designed to keep people that way. It has historical roots, but it is not impossible for someone to improve his life.
DN...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 14, 2008
What I get from his last posting is this.. Brazilians haven't been TAUGHT enough . EDUCATED enough. To know that racism exist. In other words, ignorance has been bliss for them. That is of course until non-brazilians have them "taste the forbidden fruit".


Of course, that's just ridiculous.

My wife is currently working with the Brazilian black media of the 1920s. There was plenty of discussion about race and racism, even back then, and the U.S. influence in Brazil at that time was basically nil.

...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 14, 2008
Abie says:
If there were as much injustice as anyone like you or like any other militant of a black racist movement of the past or present thought there was then this country would have seen a lot more turbulence.


Again, Abie, your unfortunate habit of building strawmen and setting them on fire is coming to the fore, once again. I certainly am not making and have not made any claim as to the measurable level of injustice in this country, whatever these anonymous black militants you like to cite say (and really, Abe, almost every argument you’ve made so far has referenced some poorly-defined “they”. Are you sure you aren’t paranoid?). While there certainly is injustice and racism in Brazil, neither I nor you have any way of measuring it quantitatively. I wouldn’t even try. But the argument that “It must be relatively little injustice because I don’t see turbulence” has very little weight coming as it does from you. One thing’s damned clear from our discussion, Abe: you spend an awful lot of time trying to “wish racism away” and such a wishful thinker is certainly a poor judge of how much racial strife there is and has been in our country.

With regards to your apparent fascism, this isn’t an “appeal to motives” but, as I mentioned above, a quite honest and measured appraisal of your world views, as you’ve portrayed them here. You believe that a people of a country are and should be naturally united through a common politics and culture and that variants need to be stamped out for the “good of the nation”. You presume that nations do indeed have discrete, bounded, unique cultures and that such cultures should be homogenous and homogenized. The only difference I can see between your world view and that of classical fascism (or, more properly, its Brazilian Integralist variant) is that you have substituted race with culture in your ideology. Instead of working for a racially pure people, you propose we work for a culturally pure people. This, at least, is what I’ve managed to glean from your constant appeals to a supposedly homogenous and homogenized “Brazilian culture” and your claims that political and cultural plurality will inevitably destroy the nation.

As I’ve said before, whatever adjective you give to your ideas, they are deeply rooted in classic fascism. Again, this is no ad hominem attack: it’s an honest appraisal of your ideas, as you present them to us. The idea that anyone who uses “fascism” is making an “appeal to motives” argument is ridiculous. If that were the case, then fascism itself would need to be a mythological creature. But fascism is a historical ideology which has given birth to many variants and which still, unfortunately, has many adherents today, as your arguments prove.

Saying that if something quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck and looks like a duck it probably is a duck is not an appeal to motives attack, Abie. It’s a simple, rational and logical description.

They certainly know what the professors think, and some students are also ideologically motivated and would defend their ideologies fervorously.


These are Freshmen in their first class with a sub teacher who has only told them he opposes quotas. How are they magically supposed to know what I think, Abie, ESPECIALLY when I don’t know what I think? As Adrian will confirm, I’m certainly as skeptical of the American Sociological Definition of race as I am of the Popular Brazilian Definition of Race. It’s YOUR rather innocent belief that people are programmed, like robots, by specific national cultures and can never get around them, but I certainly have never believed in hypodescendency as a valid definition of race. Hell, Adrian and I have argued that one into the ground several times on this forum.

So what, exactly, are these kids supposedly picking up with their extra-sensory powers, Abie? Long before they met me, their opinions on this topic were WELL FORMED. That is how they had a million and one examples ready to give of how racism exists around them.

Seeing as how you aren’t an educator, you can be forgiven for not understanding how classroom dynamics really work. But if you ever DO have the opportunity to ask kids about something they’ve never thought about for themselves, you’d quickly find out that what follows such a question is SILENCE.

Anyway, your little experiment may be anything…


Who ever called it an experiment?

I think everybody can see how "scientific" you are.


Thank you. Relative to you, I’m sure they can. smilies/cheesy.gif
Cultural and moral relativism
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 14, 2008
My commitment is with the truth, I didn't mean to hurt you.


I guess this is another example of “Brazilians taking everything personally”, eh Abe? Looks like you’re having a hard time separating arguments from emotions. My point – to which you addressed this comment – was that we are talking about CULTURAL relativism, not MORAL relativism. How I could possibly be “hurt” by someone else’s ignorance regarding the distinction between the two is beyond me.

Morals are not culture. Or rather, morals can be a part of culture, obviously, but they do not encompass culture. Cultural relativism is a scientific and pragmatic concept. It is the belief that, in order to better understand a culture, one needs to approach it on its own terms. That is all it is. Moral relativism is the belief that there is and can be no moral position in the world that is better than another. Of course there are – but said “superiority” is only valid within the context of a subjective choice. It is not determined by the natural or divine order of the universe.

The study of culture is objectivist in nature. The moral and political decisions we make facing culture are subjective in nature. The problem comes not from the fact that you take a moral and political stance, but from the fact that you then presume that your stance is inherently superior and that such superiority is ingrained in the very nature of the universe and not created by your specific set of circumstances.

Dn sez:
How can you tout "values" WITHOUT being "ideological?


You can’t. The problem isn’t being ideological, however, the problem is presenting ideologies as if they were universal and eternal truths – “naturalizing” them, as we say in the social sciences.

And just how do you see Brazil? Is it a fair place..(and not to say ANY other place is wholly just)

How would you objectively measure such a thing, DN? All you can do is give a subjective opinion. Mine is that no, Brazil is not a fair place. Is it “fairer” than the U.S.? That simply can’t be said with any degree of certainty. My personal feeling is that anyone who tries to compare two highly complex and immense nations like the U.S. and Brazil and come up with a simple “thumbs up / thumbs down” kind of response is probably a fool. It’d take far more information and study than I’ve ever seen anyone accumulate. I’ve been trying to compare the two for close to 25 years now and all I can say is that the more I learn about both, the more impossible simple comparisons appear.

Abe feels qualified to make such comparisons because he’s not a scientist. He thus feels free to cherry pick his data and discard whatever doesn’t fit his preconceived notion of the world. The idea that Christianity is somehow “European” while Islam “is not really African” is an excellent example of this sort of thing. A scientist looks at data, then builds a hypothesis, then tests it. Most people I know who discuss race in Brazil and the U.S. do exactly the opposite: they have a conclusion in mind to begin with, then they go looking for data to cut to fit that conclusion.

With a quarter century of studying race and conflict in the States and Brazil under my belt, all I can say for sure is the following:
1)Both countries definitely have racism.
2)Race, however, is an ideological construct and, as such, it’s been built in different ways in both countries. Trying to apply one country’s historical experience to come up with policies for the other is thus pretty foolish and probably doomed to fail.

That’s about it.

The irony of Abe’s position is that he’s simply a flip side of the “black militants” he hates. They believe, ultimately, that the only “real” racism is the American brand, so if that’s what we’re not seeing in Brazil, then it must be “hidden” somewhere, by damn. Abe works from the same fundamental premise, but then flips the conclusion: because we DON’T see in Brazil exactly the same thing we say in the U.S., then we obviously CAN’T be racist.

My view is that racism in Brazil is not better or worse but DIFFERENT than it is in the U.S. and the steps taken to combat it must also be different. Racial quotas, for example, simply won’t work as they are supposed to in a country that doesn’t believe in hypodescendency.

So I find both Abe and the anonymous “militants” to be the flip sides of the same coin.

I’d also like to know what is the difference between cultural relativism and moral cultural relativism? All cultures have their own sets of morals. How does this fit into your discussion?


Moral relativism and cultural relativism, not moral cultural relativism. See my arguments, above. All cultures have their own sets of morals (plural, note), but culture is not a synonym for morality. Some moral sets are shared between cultures (partially or completely), cultures tend to have more than one moral set
Baiacu
written by A Brazilian, March 14, 2008
How can you tout "values" WITHOUT being "ideological?


An ideology is a system of ideas designed by a group of people to serve some purpose, examples: communism, fascism, ecologism, etc. If we are talking about values that are above all people and cultures then it makes no sense to talk in group, because the group would be the totality of mankind, therefore it can't be an ideology.

I''d also like to know what is the difference between cultural relativism and moral cultural relativism? All cultures have their own sets of morals.


I don't know, you should ask Thaddeus because he is the one that mentioned a difference between the two things as if they were completely separate. As I see the values and morals are included in the culture, that's why we need to get it from sources other than our own.

And just how do you see Brazil?


Brazil is not a good place at this moment, but can be better if some effort is put in the right direction. I am very skeptical of the current economic stability, because we still have 50k murders a year and problems with violence and education. Why is there so much violence? Poverty? If poverty was the cause of violence we would see a lot of people pickpocketing or stealing food from supermarkets. What poor individual buy machine guns and grenades and a few kilos of cocaine to sell in front of schools? The problem is not poverty, but values!

Thaddeus and his colleagues sound like animals born in the zoo arguing with a wild relative that the life in the zoo is good because they have meals everyday. This is basically what quotas are, and other measures to compensate blacks. They have what to eat but aren't free.

Using the same argument that "blacks are better off in the US" we could say that prisoners in American prisons are better fed and taken care of than many people in third world countries. Should we all go to jail then!?

Two things:

- You see things wrong. What prevents you from cutting others culture to pieces in order to find those good sentiments that make humanity improve? Why should we be limited by what wackos such Thaddeus think? Inidigenous cultures, some african ones and a lot of pagan European stuff are all trash. Useless garbage. Why don't you just pick whatever is is good and discard the rest? Why do you have to carry this dead weight with you wherever you go?

It is not bad to admit that the culture that came from Europe did a few good things. Why deny it? Is it admitting that there's something there that works and that would be useful in your culture something to avoid? That's why Thaddeus' views are so narrow.

Can you imagine such freedom? Limitless, boundaryless.

- The current ideology of multiculturalism serves the purpose of the racists. Yes, those same individuals that less than 100 years ago were claiming to be somehow more evolved. Why? They know that what a few did in the past was wrong and they want to fix it, they know it's not viable to pursue a racist way, but they don't want to stop being white (or black, depending on the case).

So recognizing the "validity" of other cultures is a way of keeping them there and avoiding diluting their beloved identities into something else.

Some people may have good intentions, but they are either unconsciously following the herd or they know what they don't want, i.e., mixing.
Thaddeus, this is boring
written by A Brazilian, March 14, 2008
With regards to your apparent fascism, this isn’t an “appeal to motives” but, as I mentioned above, a quite honest and measured appraisal of your world views, as you’ve portrayed them here. You believe that a people of a country are and should be naturally united through a common politics and culture and that variants need to be stamped out for the “good of the nation”. You presume that nations do indeed have discrete, bounded, unique cultures and that such cultures should be homogenous and homogenized. The only difference I can see between your world view and that of classical fascism (or, more properly, its Brazilian Integralist variant) is that you have substituted race with culture in your ideology. Instead of working for a racially pure people, you propose we work for a culturally pure people. This, at least, is what I’ve managed to glean from your constant appeals to a supposedly homogenous and homogenized “Brazilian culture” and your claims that political and cultural plurality will inevitably destroy the nation


The problem with discussing with you is that you don't stop saying nonsense and I have to come here and write a lengthy response when I could be doing something better of my life.

No, it's not replacing race with culture. No fascism ever defended the assimilation of other races, or cutting the races in pieces and using what work in them, nor admitted the need for improvement by looking for solutions in other places. Either you don't know the first thing about fascism or you have reading problems.

Read the f**king text! The "appeal to motives" that I mentioned wasn't related to you claims of fascism, but to this part:

Whether he knows it or not, I suspect that what's really emotionally motivating Abe is the fact that he knows he's living in a country where the genie can't be put back into the bottle. With his "there's no racism in Brazil" rap, he's in a very small minority among Brazilians and that's probably a new and unsettling experience for him.


Got it? Do I need to draw for you?

It’s a simple, rational and logical description.


Of someone that can't read properly you mean, right?

These are Freshmen in their first class with a sub teacher who has only told them he opposes quotas. How are they magically supposed to know what I think, Abie, ESPECIALLY when I don’t know what I think?


Are you for real? How can you even consider yourself Brazilian if you don't know how people think most of the times? Leftist ideas are pervasive in the Brazilian society and that's easily verifiable by the quantity of leftist words used in our daily lives (such as Elite as synonym for "rich people, the capitalist opressors") and by reading newspapers. Lots of people actually think that the FARC are a valid political movement depite of all the crimes they commit.

When I said they were ideologically motivaded I mean they were already before attending any class. They got to the university that way.
Thaddeus
written by A Brazilian, March 14, 2008
My point – to which you addressed this comment – was that we are talking about CULTURAL relativism, not MORAL relativism. How I could possibly be “hurt” by someone else’s ignorance regarding the distinction between the two is beyond me.


Morals and values are included in the culture, and you are the one who first cited the term hurt here and I just referred to it:

And here's one of the reasons the comment doesn't hurt.


Are you personalizing things? That tells a lot about your "scientific" capabilities. You have lost argument and now is cherrypicking things here and there just to make it look like you know something we don't. Ridiculous.

Morals are not culture. Or rather, morals can be a part of culture, obviously, but they do not encompass culture.


Changed your mind? What have I been saying for so many comments!? You are wasting my time. I really have more important things to do than to talk to you.

It is not determined by the natural or divine order of the universe.


Is mathematics cultural or is it part of the natural order of the universe? If it is part of the natural order of the universe then where's it? Can it be measured? How big is the number 3 in kilometers? Can you see a 5 in a microscope?

The problem isn’t being ideological, however, the problem is presenting ideologies as if they were universal and eternal truths – “naturalizing” them, as we say in the social sciences.


The problem is that you don't know what an ideology is. If it is universal then it can't be an ideology.

Abe feels qualified to make such comparisons because he’s not a scientist. He thus feels free to cherry pick his data and discard whatever doesn’t fit his preconceived notion of the world.


That sounds a lot like you. Why do you discard stories of people living nicely without facing racism? Oh no, only the stories of your students that actually think that they saw racism are important.

The idea that Christianity is somehow “European” while Islam “is not really African” is an excellent example of this sort of thing.


These are historical facts! The catholic church was founded there and influence greatly the culture of the region, later the came the reform also there! Islam appeared in Arabia. Is Arabia in Africa? The muslims invaded Africa later and took with them the Islam.

With a quarter century of studying race and conflict in the States and Brazil under my belt, all I can say for sure is the following:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argument in logic consisting on basing the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge, or position of the person asserting it.


So I find both Abe and the anonymous “militants” to be the flip sides of the same coin.


Judging by the fact that you can't do basic text interpretation and haven't really read what I have written anyway I think it's futile to say that the notion of assimilating what is good in others and discard the rest doesn't fit a pro/against binary mentality because there would always what have to discard in some cultures.

Well, who cares. You have your own world of illusions to live with, like Arabia is in Africa and islam is genuinely African, Christianity didn't develop itself in Europe (was it China then?) and certainly black movements and black racists never ever existed in Brazil until last week.

I will make a note of the college you work for and will make sure I never send my kids there.
Abie Baby
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 14, 2008
What poor individual buy machine guns and grenades and a few kilos of cocaine to sell in front of schools?


Yeah, that happens an awful lot, doesn't it Abe? Just millions of those bastards, lining up outside of the schools every day...

I TEACH in and around some of the wosrst favelas and even there this isn't happening except on very, very rare ocassions. You are simply trying to buffalo people into fearing that the sky is falling because people who are afraid are much more likely to buy your fascist bulls**t.

It is not bad to admit that the culture that came from Europe did a few good things. Why deny it?


Who's denying it? Tell me Abe: do even KNOW how to make an argument without setting up a strawman first?

Yes, those same individuals that less than 100 years ago were claiming to be somehow more evolved.


Really? The same individuals, huh? Well, damn. Imagine that.

So let me get this straight: you think multiculturalism is somehow run by a secret cabal of 120-year old racists, Abe? Is that what you're claiming here?

The problem with discussing with you is that you don't stop saying nonsense and I have to come here and write a lengthy response when I could be doing something better of my life.


All I can say is that I guess I just love ordering you around, Abe.

Got it? Do I need to draw for you?


Please do. I'm at least honest enough to admit that it's my speculative reading of your motives while you go about affirming to one and all that I'm a) a racist, b) a Canadian, c) an Anglo-Saxon, d) a multi-culturalist and attributing the most ridiculous and spurious motives imaginable to my arguments, none of which you seem properly able to even grasp, let alone critique. So much for your whining about "appealing to motives".

Are you for real? How can you even consider yourself Brazilian if you don't know how people think most of the times? Leftist ideas are pervasive in the Brazilian society and that's easily verifiable by the quantity of leftist words used in our daily lives (such as Elite as synonym for "rich people, the capitalist opressors") and by reading newspapers. Lots of people actually think that the FARC are a valid political movement depite of all the crimes they commit.


What could any of that possibly have to do with my students and my relationship to them, seeing as how I don't believe FARC are freedom fighters, I don't use "elite" as synonymous for "rich oppressors" or what have you? Your argument is essentially that students are so incredibly brainwashed by massive leftist propaganda that they can't think for themselves even when someone encourages them to do so. And to you, as far as I can see, any opinion you don't agree with is "leftist propaganda", produced by a little cabal of marxist humanists hidden away somewhere, perhaps under the Kremlin. That's a pretty ridiculous view of humanity, Abe. In fact, it borders on something that a sociopath would come up with: a complete inability to see human beings as real people.

All I can say is that I WISH it was so easy to get students to absorb things. They generally don't and any educator will tell you that. And yet here you are, arguing that wee little brains are so maleable that they´ll do and believe any old thing someone suggests.

Abe, you need to get out of whatever hole you're living in (which I suspect is somewhere in Forida) and interact with REAL Brazilians for a change. Especialy with real Brazilian youth. You don't seem to know them very well at all.

You are wasting my time. I really have more important things to do than to talk to you.


So don't let the screen door bang you on the ass on the way out, Abe. I'm trying to have a discussion with the reasonable people posting here, not with a paranoid fascist, though I'll cheerfully beard the fascist on. It should be obvious, even to a clueless person like yourself that I'm more than HAPPY to waste your time, especially when, by doing so, I get a chance to show you up for the paranoid shmuck you are. smilies/cheesy.gif

...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 14, 2008
Is mathematics cultural or is it part of the natural order of the universe?


At its base, math is philospohical and thus cultural. There's no God- or nature-given reason why you calculate in base 10, Abe. Other cultures have worked out perfectly useful mathematical systems based on base 6, for example.

These are historical facts! The catholic church was founded there and influence greatly the culture of the region, later the came the reform also there! Islam appeared in Arabia. Is Arabia in Africa? The muslims invaded Africa later and took with them the Islam.


Ahn. So you're claiming that Catholicism is the only true Christianity, then? Because Catholicism was a relative late-comer in the game and it's founders did not see themselves as "European" but "Roman" - an appelation which included parts (and only parts) of Europe, Africa and Asia Minor, a fact of which they were well aware, even if you seem to have a difficult time comprehending it.

So you're out 2 for 2 now, Abe. Christianity certainly wasn't "European" in origin and Catholicism wasn't exclusively so.

I think it's futile to say that the notion of assimilating what is good in others and discard the rest doesn't fit a pro/against binary mentality because there would always what have to discard in some cultures.


My only problem with that is your assumption that you have some God- or Nature- given ability to discern ultimate truth and decide - for everyone else in Brazil - what is good and must be assimilated and what is bad and needs to be discarded. Ultimately, it seems to me that you are too cowardly to simply state "This is my opinion, based on what I have learned". You seem to have a need to believe that your opinion is ultimate truth. This strikes me as a deep-seated moral and ethical malaise. Confronted with a universe in which Man will never know for sure and must thus take moral responsability for his positions, you retreat to a false moral absolutism. You're like a child hiding under his covers, afraid of monsters in the dark but also equally sure that, if you refuse to look at them, they can't get YOU.

I mean, really, Abe... NOBODY here has been preaching the sort of ultra-black militant line you are reacting against. Not even Adrian! NOBODY here is a screaming commie leftist. NOBODY here is claiming that European culture (however defined) is useless and harmful. And yet everyone of your screeds so far presumes that this is the rock-bottom position of everyone in the world who doesn't agree with you. Finally, you seem to mistake any position that is not 100% congruent with you own as brainwashing. Listening to you, all I hear is a man raving that an evil cabal is trying to unfairly manipulate others simply by expressing their opinions. And because you can't deal with the opinions that people are really expressing here, you need to transform them into 2 dimensional ridiculous strawmen and then fight THOSE.

Some guy says he thinks African history should be taught in school and you automatically transform him into a fire-spitting, white-hating, Afro-fascist who'd overthrow all of civilization in the name of a romantic dream. Jesus. I bet you sleep with a pistol under your pillow [roll eyes].

I will make a note of the college you work for and will make sure I never send my kids there.


Well, it's too bad that you feel you have the right and ability to control your children's minds even after they become adults. Methinks you're going to be in for a bit of a shock when they grow up and - like all children do - start exploring the world for themselves. But knowing their dad and the probable sort of education you're giving them (given your views, I presume it's some sort of home schooling regime that teaches, for example, that evolution is a lie and the world is onyl 20,000 years old...?), your kids probably won't be able to pass a federal vestibular anyway.

Which is a shame, but hey, somebody's got to pay tuition to keep those private schools going, hey? smilies/grin.gif
A final warning, Abe...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 14, 2008
Rest assured, the Global Liberal Communist Multicultural Cabal knows where you live and we are coming to suck out your children's brains. There's nothing you can do to stop us. Buararararararararara!

Betchya Abe's son ends up gay, marriesan Angolan transvestite and makes an international name for himself as the first Brazilian pornorap star. Any takers? smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/grin.gif
Abe
written by Shely, March 14, 2008
This is a logical mistake. You make a question whose answer is obvious, but it is not connected to the subject being discussed. The subject is about racism and there's no connection between those things you mentioned and racism. There's no system designed to keep people that way. It has historical roots, but it is not impossible for someone to improve his life.


You seem to be the person making some real logical mistakes here not me. It doesn't take a child to figure this one out. Brazil, is not a the "land of opportunity" and especially if you are a Black person. We don't have a concrete system, but a we do have a system of social oppression which does not need to have a "SEDE"' or an address because it resides on the minds of people like you. Therefore Abe, our friend's example of discrimination (while visiting Bahia) is a perfect example of what goes on everyday for a black person in Brazil. By denying people education or a right to live in a dignifying manner, we are setting the country for failure. Tell me Abe, how else would you do? Do you really believe that the 10% of "middle class whites" in Brasilia can do it?

Discrimination is a terrible thing for a person to have to go through. America and Brazil have serious issue to resolve, but at least Americans are talking about in a honest manner. Turn on MSNBC or any other "news" and you will see it. Everyone is talking about it and it is a good thing. Brazil on the other hand...

You don't see the connections because you cannot make it or see it. This is why Thaddeus has brilliantly exposed you lack of intelligence.
one more thing
written by Shely, March 14, 2008
Abe,

You need to stop blaming America for every single failure in the world. You portray yourself as an uneducated person (I am sure this is not true). Tell me why do you think we are a Third World Country? Do you think corruption, mismanagement, etc. has anything to do with it? Education is the ticket to freedom. Why do you think we have Globo? Why do you think the soap operas are Brazilians favorite past time? I agree with Thaddeus, you are paranoid!

Also:
Using the same argument that "blacks are better off in the US" we could say that prisoners in American prisons are better fed and taken care of than many people in third world countries. Should we all go to jail then!?


You are making illogical comments. The fact that in the US prisoners are well fed has nothing to do with what you are trying to imply. The US is not a signatory of the Human Rights Declaration, but in this case it does treat prisoners with dignity. There are cases of abuse, once they surface, they are dealt with. In Brazil, a signatory of the Human Rights Declaration, prisoners are dealt as if they are animals. Hummm.... Brazil as our dearest Pele once said, "is not a serious country".

You mentioned that we are how we are in Brazil because of our values. I have read a book called Culture Matters by Samuel Huntington (it is available online on netlibrary), and he does actually mention the same idea. Let's take a look at corruption. Do you think this is a cultural issue or it has do to with values? I am an optimistic, and I would like to believe that most Brazilians are hard working people, just trying to make ends meet. Then, you may say that the police is corrupt, the local governors, etc. In my opinion, this is a systematic problem, which needs to be dealt with by the people at the top=Brasilia, setting an example. Values are PART of culture, but it doesn't meant that it is culture. If it was cultural as you like to portray, then it would be accepted as a norm by the majority and certainly there are a lot of honest Brazilians out there.


You demean the poor so badly. Here another "Out of this World" comment"

Brazil is not a good place at this moment, but can be better if some effort is put in the right direction. I am very skeptical of the current economic stability, because we still have 50k murders a year and problems with violence and education. Why is there so much violence? Poverty? If poverty was the cause of violence we would see a lot of people pickpocketing or stealing food from supermarkets. What poor individual buy machine guns and grenades and a few kilos of cocaine to sell in front of schools? The problem is not poverty, but values!


Obviously you are mingling poverty with crime. Not all poor people are criminals, if it was true we might just as well forget about living. Also, drugs will ALWAYS be sold in rich countries, poor countries, middle income countries. Legally or illegally, drugs have been and will be part of society. However, poverty is created by so many aspects and it not connected to values. Poverty is a complex issue, the lack of opportunities such as good education, jobs, BEING DISCRIMINATED, are some examples. What you are implying here is that Brazilians do not have values. I beg to differ. Poor Brazilians do not know how to vote, if they did know we would not be in our current situation. Lula and previous highway thieves, bought votes with empty promises, food for a few day and later delivered zero. Why is that poor Brazilians do not know how to vote? Because they worry about feeding the children next day, therefore today and tomorrow is very important, but the future is a blank page. You assume too much and understand very little about Brazil. Bolsa familia is an attempt to shut the eyes and the mouth of voters with "esmola". Give most people jobs, a decent salary and education (there will always be some that would rather sit and do nothing) and you will see that people (humanity) like progress. We all strive to be better today to excel tomorrow, it is part of our evolution as human beings. We seek to understand medicine, technology, improve agricultural yields because we desire progress. Nobody, Abe, wants to stay in poverty. Ask a street child in Brazil what he would like to do with his life: stay in the streets or have a roof over his head? I have done that, and I challenge you to do the same.

Thank you Thaddeus and A Brazilian
written by dnbaiacu, March 15, 2008
I thoroughly enjoyed your responses to my questions. Thank you , because you didn't have to do that and so thoroughly also. Great! I learned A LOT.

1. Both of you want a better Brazil. And this is good. You obviously aren't content with the status quo.

Not that my opinions matter the least.. But this is what I see from your arguments as an observer.
Abes platform of values is VERY important. And eventhough I haven't heard him say it directly , he thinks they should be "standardized" . At least taking the best in values from other cultures and discarding what is "useless'. But the question is WHO measures that.
I would interject that “ HUMAN values” or better described "moral code" does in fact exist by nature in our CONSCIENCES. And this explains the many similarities in laws against stealing, adultery, murder, etc in almost all cultures.
It just makes it obvious that by nature or divine providence ( to get a little politically incorrect) that we are "wired' with some pretty standard values or morals.
Problem is we humans deviate from and outright violate this inner moral code conveniently when it serves a "self-centered" purpose to do so. A general 'innate" moral code violated when it serves "self" not the interests of the "group" , or in this case , since it appears to be "innate",and existent in all peoples , HUMANITY as a whole.
It appears that Abe would agree that cultures also "evolve" . (borrowing values that "work" discarding "destructive" ones. This even indicates more so that there must be some achievable "standard". Especially if this process of taking the good and discarding the bad continuously results in an "uplifting" of the culture ,observable to all , and in any respective area. We instinctively know beauty and harmony when we see it. We can even "feel" it.
Then BEYOND the obvious innate or conscience moral codes within MOST if not all civilizations , is that even more finer value system of PRINCIPLES. Which appear to accelerate a cultures' "evolution" even further, ie (working hard, being thrifty , etc)
But this is where it becomes "politically incorrect" to go with all the 'secularism" going on in societies today.It’s like no one wants to admit where all this comes from. It all of a sudden becomes a sensitive “religious issue So I digress on this point.
Thaddeus appears to promote "identifying" a problem . Addressing it as such. And working towards a workable solution WITHIN the framework of the cultures current level of evolution as a whole or maybe can we suggest, "consciousness"????
continued Thank you TB & Abe
written by dnbaiacu, March 15, 2008
Abe appears to promote that if evolution or develpment of "conscience" is the main focus, such "problems" as racism (if it does in fact exist) would by nature work themselves out. Because instead of looking at things in terms of "this race and that race" and the help that "this race needs to give that race" .Or what freeedoms or oppurtunities to allow "this race or that race" to have , EVERYONE as part of the HUMAN race would on a individual basis and collectively have evolved to the point where inequities in the community at large don't exist. Everyone in the group working on an established and evolving “value system” would in time promote the desired equity in opportunity for all.

But then of course this would mean that a STANDARD on values or morals does in fact exist. AND that IS superior.
And this is where we all become SILENT..... Now talks about about or identifies this innate system of values and consequent principles and WHERE they come from.
You both present good arguments to support your points. But it becomes obvious you need a little of both of what you present as starting points to solve the issue discussed.
Thaddeus everything was excellent that you brought up about Brazils form of racism that is unique to itself and can’t possibly be attacked using American methods. And that in itself appears to actually give credit to “A Brazilians” argument.
The thing is, you can’t expect the State to adopt a “value system” and enforce it , that will benefit “all” of its’ citizens. Everyone , officials and citizens alike would have to agree to follow such a value system. And for this very same reason “quotas” are ENFORCED in the U.S. because there are people who aren’t fair. Actually NOT hiring or admitting those “best” for the position just “BECAUSE “ they don’t like their color. These types “WITHOUT “ values will always be present.

Brazil, on the other hand, since it is a country that doesn’t believe in “hypodescendency” should in fact be acting and supporting each other like one big happy family. But they don’t !. Just like different cultural groups within other countries made up of the same “race”.
Maybe THIS is the whole mistake to begin with.??? The concept of RACE. . In the end the we are all HUMANS. Wired with consciences. And there is no proof that we have come from anything other than two people. As there is also no proof we evolved from apes. Maybe it is acting likes APES that keeps injustices of all kinds going.
Now come on,, do you really think the Italians and Germans of the southern most parts of Brazil don’t believe in hypodescendency????They both respectively have strong racists histories from their contries of orgin. How do you fit that in?
Again , thank you both for all your input.
Ya Gotta Laugh
written by Simpleton, March 15, 2008
My youngest son goes into Wendy's to file a job application today. A couple of the jovem that work there quickly intervenve to be sure he doesn't turn his application over to the first line manager. They say to him "You're white, don't give that to her, if you do that you're an idiot, she'll just chuck it in the trash!". They persisted until a more or less father figure type (my guess is he was the franchise owner) shows up from the back room to interact with him directly. He says they told him they'd "call" - "does that mean I'll get hired" he asks me. He says he thinks maybe he'll get hired because out of the whole crew, he "was the only white person there - don't they need to have a mix?". "Don't you think they might think that that was important, ya know, to mix it up a bit considering where they are at and the customers in that area - to have both white and black employees?" he continues. He's very anxious, he really wants to get his first job.
Simpleton
written by dnbaiacu, March 15, 2008
I am assuming you are talking about the U.S , because I haven't seen a Wendys' in Brazil yet.
Maybe youngsters were looking out for your sons best interests. Not wanting your son to feel uncomfortable as the odd ball out. But then maybe the manager "will" mix it up. Especially if the area is mixed. It is funny though that all this has to be considered.
I am black. On the return back to the States I wanted part time work "quick". I asked for an application at my neighborhood McDonalds downtown Phoenix. The staff was predominately hispanic. Every look I got , including from the manager (hispanic also) was like, it's not going to happen.
I didn't really take it as racism. Just an unspoken understanding that it could get "complicated". Or better yet , just one of those instances of them wanting to leave a spot for "one of their own." As far as they are concerned I can get a job anywhere. Whereas , truth be told,, they can't. And I understood this instinctively.
It's almost safe to say that this is exactly what happened your son.
Maybe your son should venture off into a richer neighborhood where his color will give him a free pass. More than likely the few , if any black of hispanic employees there are just to fill a quota.
Zonal
written by Simpleton, March 15, 2008
Yes baiacu, the young boys were clearly watching out for my son - holding a spot for "one of their own" was not on their agenda. Maybe they understood some things my son was oblivious to. Either they must have thought he was cool or something (he is quite gregarious and had a riot / got along very well with everybody we introduced him to in Brazil) or they knew the gal was some kind of Be-atch or they wouldn't have spoken up.

As for a richer neighorhood, ours is but is also a bit isolated / more rural like setting - he will have to go about a mile or two in town / a bit downscale to find part time work of any kind. I'd venture to say that at least 90% of the employees for that establishment live considerably farther away from it than we do. Being all of the employees were black, I don't see the "fill a quota" thing coming in to play. Maybe the owner will decide to mix it up - both discrimination and reverse discrimination suits seem to be all the rage these days. My other son has worked the McD's across the street from there as well as the infamous Wmart up around the corner. Ignoring these kids working the hot dog stands, the vast majority of the black and hispanic people you see in that zone are just like us - they come there to shop all the new stores that are opening while those in the city in the big malls / strips nearer to their homes are closing down.
Simpleton..
written by dnbaiacu, March 15, 2008
ok I get . Now that you described the demographics. I can see why it's funny smilies/smiley.gif
Fortunately with God's will all this foolishness won't be an issue. It is something only God can undo. I enjoyed the previous debates on the subject . I learned A LOT. But it's really all very simple. Man-made governments aren't going to change anything. Simple BECAUSE they are man-made. There will always be people deviating from very basic values. And even more not even considering principles. Especially in a world where it has become fashionable to believe that no superior values and principles exist. Like nothing in the Bible , the Koran , or the Torah is anything of substance. Just a bunch a values and principles that came out of nowhere.
Many cop out with the excuse that really doesn't fit. "Well this group or nation claims to have these values from this or that book but they violate just about every principle in there. ... True, there are hypocritical individuals and nations. But it doesn't take anything away from the book and the obvious life-elevating standards it has. Every self-help book on the shelf is full of watered down versions or explained versions of principles in the three so-called holy books. That to this day are impacting the world. t he current anti-religious ,pro secular climate we are in now proves just that. True impact, albeit in many cases not positive. But that a consequence of individuals and nations "picking and choosing" which values and principles they want to apply. What is convenient for their own selfish interests.
Science is showing us more and more that nature is "harmonious" . Apparently "purposefully". Anything that doesn't serve it purpose eventually disappears.
It's about time many of us get out of denial. Otherwise....Nature WILL take care of it.
To DN...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 15, 2008
And this explains the many similarities in laws against stealing, adultery, murder, etc in almost all cultures.


Sorry, Dn, but that is simply not true. Or, let's put it this way: yes, stealing, murder and adultery are illegal in most cultures, but WHAT is considered stealing, murder and adultery is RADICALLY DIFFERENT.

I'm presuming you're a fairly main-stream Christian, DN. So this means that according to the laws you follow, having sex with anyone other than the one person who is your spouse is either fornification or adultery, correct? And yet most human cultures don't see things that way. In many if not most human cultures, people are allowed to have more than one spouse, to divorce (generally without any sort of religious authorities' consent or that of the State), to have sex with people not their spouses under certain circumstances... In fact, what is considered to be "adultery" (by which I assume you mean some sort of illegal sex between consenting adults who already have partners) varies so radically from culture to culture that there's no way in hell you can claim it's grounded in some sort of transhumanic values.

I won't even get into theft and murder, but I'm sorry, man: what you're saying just isn't true. There is no transhuman set of values that exists by nature in our consciences. It's a nice and comforting belief, but it simply isn't so.

What it breaks down to here is that I base my arguments on where I think society needs to go based on scientific proof while you and Abe seem to base yours on faith.

Because there is, in fact, very little scientific proof that one set of values is better or more evolved than another, I generally withold judgement, even when something personally alarms me, unless I can see that the behavior in question is a clear and present threat to my life or those of people I love. I CERTAINLY wouldn't want to be in the position of saying, as Abe claims, that one form of music or religion is more "evolved" than another and that all others thus need to be discarded. That is simply ridiculous.

Most human hecatombes in history were promulgated by a relatively small group of people who convinced themselves that they had the inner skinny on what God or Mother Nature wants all human beings to do. They then felt that priviledged knowledge gave them free license to run around and do God's work for her, killing, torturing, or imprisioning those who had wrong values. For all the griping about it (and I gripe about it myself), there is an awful lot to be said for multi-culturalism's promotion of tolerance. It seems to me that it's far too easy to convince human beings to go off on lethal crusades and, in my personal value system, erring on the side of tolerance and diversity seems to be a much more likely way of preventing mass killing than believing that one group or another is in posession of superior values.

If you disbelieve that, well... Take a look at the way Abe presents his worldview here and the way all of us supposedly "communist multiculturalists" do so. I'm happy to live in a world with guys like Abe, but I am pretty sure he doesn't feel that way about me - or about anyone who isn't fundamentally like him, for that matter. Hell, just listen to him. Abe doesn't balk at all at gratuitously insulting the better part of the human race, flipping off other people's religions, worldviews and even taste in music as "inferior and unevolved". This is a guy who has a SEVERE problem with how 90% of humanity actually lives its lives. He has an incredibly low tolerance for cultural diversity and a deep-seated faith that God is on his side. You only need to look at what typically happens anytime people like Abe get anywhere near the reigns of power: masscres.

You want to talk "unevolved values"? If we're presuming such things exist, I can't think of anything more unevolved than the rock solid belief that one's own tribe is superior to everyone else on the planet. I don't really give one dram of rancid bat-piss if you think said superiority is based on biology, values or what have you: it's fundamentally the same position, whatever agency you attribute your "superiority" to. When you talk about the need for homogenous values, DN, I'm sorry, but I don't see progress: I see the same old whip-song humanity's labored under for the past 15,000 years or so and I see no reason to believe that THIS time, that stale old line about Chosen Peoples and God-given Values is going suddenly bring on the Jubilee. It has NEVER done so before.
Dn, continued...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 15, 2008

Thaddeus everything was excellent that you brought up about Brazils form of racism that is unique to itself and can’t possibly be attacked using American methods. And that in itself appears to actually give credit to “A Brazilians” argument.


No it doesn't, Dn. Not in the slightest. Abe does not believe that racism exists or ever has existed in Brazil. He's made that point many times. My point is completely opposite: I believe that racism is very much alive and well in Brazil, but that because of Brazil's history, it has some very specific characteristics that are not congruent with racism in the U.S.

These are two completely different points, Dn. About as different as can be, in fact. When you look at what we're saying, Abe is much more closer in values to those Black Americans who believe that Brazil is "backwards" on racial matters than he is to me, because both Abe and those Yanks see the American racist experience as the only "true" one in the world.

Maybe THIS is the whole mistake to begin with.??? The concept of RACE.


Of course race is a stupid concept. But the problem is, race DOES exist as a historical and political artefact which has been used to screw with people's lives. To discuss its effects and formulations in THAT sense doesn't make one a racist. That's one of the big problems with Abe's argument: discussing how race has worked in the world is not racism, any more than discussing how Christianity has worked in the world makes one a Christian.

Now come on,, do you really think the Italians and Germans of the southern most parts of Brazil don’t believe in hypodescendency????


WHICH Italians and WHICH Germans in WHAT PART of Southern Brazil? I've lived in SP and areas south for decades and I know plenty of mixed couples there, so obviously your statement doesn't have a blanket value, does it? In fact, almost every black Brazilian I know in SP and Rio has some Italian ancestry. smilies/cheesy.gif Now, when you go off to some place like the Vale do Itajaí, yeah, you'll probably find some folks who have a more hypodescendant view of things. But so what? Not everyone in the U.S. believes in hypodescendency, so if we're gonna start looking at small minority views, the very idea of a homogenous national culture on this point is nuts.

That said, however, it's pretty clear that hypodescendency is the hegemonic view in the States while mestiçagem is the hegemonic view in Brazil. A couple tens of thousands of examples to the contrary - or even a few million - doesn't change that general pattern.








...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 15, 2008
Especially in a world where it has become fashionable to believe that no superior values and principles exist.


Whatever the fashion may be, Dn, I do not believe in absolutle superior values because a) there is no proof at all that they exist b) what proof we do have - and there's a lot of it - is that REAL human values (meaning what people can actually be shown to do) are as diverse as the day is long.

Just a bunch a values and principles that came out of nowhere.


What they came from, Dn, were concrete human historical experiences. And I don't know many people who'd claim there is nothing good in those books you mention, so it seems to me you're building a strawman, here. Athiests are DEFINITELY in the very small minority in this world, so I don't get your claim that doubt is fashionable these days.

Science is showing us more and more that nature is "harmonious" . Apparently "purposefully". Anything that doesn't serve it purpose eventually disappears.


Huh? Where'd you get that one from? Even if we could say that nature's harmonious, that's no logical proof of purpose.
Denial?
written by Simpleton, March 16, 2008
Whether predator, symbiot or parasite, man simply will not go harmoniously forward together with the non-human part of nature in this world much less than with his own kind. Although it may seem this way or that way or that such and such values are better / more advantageous / "proper", all that becomes "sacred" in a sense, joined to rigourously by a majority, staked out as undeniable / unchangeable, becomes stagnant as time passes and "nature" only tolerates that for so long. Purpose is a logical construct used to explain men's machinations, not some intrinsic essence of nature. It matters little what motivates ones purpose.
Thaddeus...
written by dnbaiacu, March 16, 2008
You are right from your perspective......No argument from me.

I have chosen to "believe", ( in the end that's what it is all about anyway, no matter what your position) that the issues such as racism WILL NOT ever be solved by any of mans efforts. You can spend a lifetime studying it.. Present it to the government. And there will always be resistance to some form of progress. Because there will always be certain ones that will not call that progress.
You "do' have to "believe" and this is where we differ.. And that is ok. That is the gift of choice and free will. I just like to hear other peoples opinions. And thank you for responding.
I have learned from my own personal experience ( and it is always "personal" anyway) that I NEED GUIDANCE. I have read a book that distinguishes itself by it's prophecies. And that convinces "me" that it is a light in this mess that we are in. I have witnessed first hand how the values and principles advocated in this book when applied dramatically change the lives of many irrespective of race, culture , ethnicity for the better. What 's even better is that this book of guidance is practically available all over the world. And I don't think it is by accident.
I challenge you after studying racism for over 25 years to give us the solution. ......You can't... It is that simple. Neither can Abe expect all peoples to accept whatever values he may found to be superior. There will be no mass conversion. There will be no forced acceptance of anyones values.
So we are back at square one.. Something bigger than ourselves has to resolve it.
Man , with all that he has achieved SCIENTIFICALLY , has still failed to provide the basics , like peace , security and prosperity for most. Won't happen. Not only will the dominant selfishness in man (as evident by the whole concept of race and its' subsequent problems) , but other life forms exist (for the time being) that will insure that doesn't happen. You can't other spirit forms of life out of the equation. Take a look at any local Candomble ceremony. The activity of these invisible life forms manifest itself in many ways. Hilter was heavily involved in occult sciences. No one denies these unseen forces exist.
Everything we "need" to know about them is explained in that book. Mainly that they don't have mankinds best interests in mind. Really they want us all dead.
We don't stand a chance against them..... That's why we need "GUIDANCE".
But of course,,,, from a purely scientific and secular position... That's all hogwash..
There is no PROOF that energy came out of nowhere either.
It is all what you choose to believe.. It has always been that way.
I have been around long enough to understand that men aren't going to get it right on there own.
Simpleton..
written by dnbaiacu, March 16, 2008
Sorry I was being vague.. Now that I have been exposed I might as well make it clear that I believe in a GOD that has a PURPOSE. And consequently we humans are here for a PURPOSE to fullfill. With that in mind, it may behoove us to find out WHAT that purpose is. Man , left to his own devices is going head first to self -destrucion despite all of his SCIENTIFIC achievements.
I am sorry I used the word NATURE . Nature itself can't explain written prophecies nor written values and principles that when applied actually work and transcend time and cultures. There is no other explanation for this but a HIGER INTELLIGENT DESIGNER.
The arguments are interesting.. But at some point it just becomes entertainment going nowhere.
If we all spent 25 years studying Love , Dr W's topic wouldn't even be up for discussion
To Dn
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 16, 2008
I have chosen to "believe", ( in the end that's what it is all about anyway, no matter what your position)


Dn, that's silly and you know it. If you TRULY think belief trumps reality, then I want to see you climb to the top of my apartment building, flap your arms, and fly off like a sparrow. Believe and anything's possible... right? smilies/cheesy.gif When it comes down to brass tacks, both you and I know that you will act as if a foundational reality exists, in spite of your beliefs.

...such as racism WILL NOT ever be solved by any of mans efforts.


Well, people said the same thing about slavery at one point, and well it certainly still exists in the world, we can definitely say it's been greatly reduced. Likewise, for all the pooh-poohing of civil rights in the U.S. that certain people engage in, that struggle has DEFINITELY made the U.S. a better place to live. So while racism, per se, may never be completely eliminated, it - like the bubonic plague - can be reduced. And that, of course, it the entire point in studying it.

I challenge you after studying racism for over 25 years to give us the solution. ......You can't... It is that simple.


By that same logic, we shouldn't bother to study AIDS, correct? After all, we can't cure it, so why bother to study it? Likewise we shouldn't study cancer...

It's not an "all or nothing" universe, Dn. Measureably reducing some plagues is a worthwhile thing, even if we can't eliminate them entirely.

While I can't "solve" racism, I can most definitely give you some ideas on how to reduce it that have been proven to work. The first of these, obviously, is to avoid enshrining essentialist classifications in law. The second is to educate our children to respect diversity - or at the very least, most forms of it. I do happen to agree with Abe that every human being on the planet is going to have their personal "line in the sand" on this issue beyond which he or she will not go. But there's a huge difference between, say, believing that female circumcision or concentration camps are horrible and need to be fought and believing - as Abe apparently does - that European musical and literature forms are the most "evolved" in the world and thus only those should be taught to our children. Teaching people to perceive difference as not necessarily threatening greatly reduces racism. Teaching the depth and breadth of human experience instead of just a small, narrow section of it because we believe that is "superior" is also a way to reduce racism.

Man , with all that he has achieved SCIENTIFICALLY , has still failed to provide the basics , like peace , security and prosperity for most.


And yet, nevertheless, basic indicators of human well-being have been climbing for the past 500 years all across the planet. I have very little faith in peoples' denunciations of evil or powerless science when these come couched on an internet bulletin board. Let's face it Dn: 200 years ago, both you and I would be busting our backs from sun-up to sundown hoeing rows, picking and planting. Without a doubt, our current life offers us more choices, more control over our lives, greater amounts of material wealth to play around with and less pain and fear (though perhaps more anxiety). Knowing what I know of 1808, I would not switch with a Joe average back then. There has very definitely been material progress in human existance which has translated to better living all around and that's true even among the poorest third of the planet. Science has been directly responsible for these changes, Dn: not God (though I'm sure God has been happy to see all this and is rooting us on).

...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 16, 2008
Hilter was heavily involved in occult sciences.


Let me get this straight: you think that a syphilitic megalomaniac's belief in astrology is good proof that "invisible forces" exist, Dn? Because that's what that argument looks like...

But of course,,,, from a purely scientific and secular position... That's all hogwash...


That's where you're wrong: a "purely" scientific and secular position is very much open to the hypothesis that such invisible forces exist. In fact, experiments are constantly being carried out all over Earth which seek to uncover these forces. And just given the nature of the universe and what our past discoveries can tell us, there are almost certainly "unseen forces" at work which we have not yet learned to perceive.

So it would be a very poor scientist who'd say such a hypothesis is "hogwash".

But the name of the game of science, as you point out is PROOF. Reproducible proof that something exists independent of someone's subjective belief that it does. and so far, there is vanishingly little proof that there are malevolent unseen entities manipulating human destinies in the way you describe.

BtW, Dn, no physicist I know of claims that energy comes out of nowhere, so why you're holding said belief up as a limitation of science, I have no idea.
Entropy
written by Simpleton, March 16, 2008
dn, you are correct with respect to searching for what such purpose is that has been set forth for each of us. Few if any ever really find it or even ken a glimmer of the thread through time that is to be followed to achieve it. Eventually one comes to understand that one has fallen short of maximally excercising one's greatest potential, contribution, execution of selfless beneficial deeds. Like the rollers coming ashore, every time one surges forward toward peaking, a combination of things beyond our choice and control like the tides, eddys, mounds of sand and rock squelches the power to overcome all. Regarless of one's strength, from time to time one will be caught in the undertow, dragged under out and away. Thoroughly submerged and exhausted, somehow, someway, most resurface after a time, emerge once again and push forward toward that end or goal which is found good by our own limited understanding of our choices.
DN
written by Shely, March 16, 2008
Intelligent Design is an American experience. It is not an issue in Europe or other parts of the world. I have an excellent article on this subject. I was a student at Dr. Crocker at GMU. She was fired for teaching ID in a Biology class-rightly so. The fact of the matter is that most of ID's argument has to do with ID's follower belief that man has a special place in creation. It is an emotional argument, hard for a believer to get it. What is hard for Christians, Jews, Muslim to believe that their life is simple way to share DNA and to spin the evolutionary wheel. It is funny how people to pick and choose--specially ID's followers that evolution cannot be proven. I will even say, just because it is unexplained it doesn't mean that it will stay forever in such state. Not long ago physicists were the black sheep in science. Did you know that the plate tectonics theory took a long time for American geologists to accept it? It was finally taken into full consideration in the 70's, no wonder evolution still such a controversial subject. Some people still argue about climate change!


I feel that evolution is a subject which a few people truly understand--even for myself a hardcore scientist, therefore to blurt science a hogwash is a sophomoric behavior. The ID crew cannot even agree on the book of Genesis, as you many know, there are 3 groups out there currently arguing about the "7 days" idea vs an epoch and so forth. In my opinion, ID is pure religion and no science (even if some say it has some scientific explanation). In a theory, you have to set your hypothesis out there in different situation and get the same result every time and be able to predict that it will occur in future. The theory of evolution does that, specially with the advent of DNA analysis. Religion on the other hand, has zero proof in a scientific standpoint. God cannot be proven or quantified. It is your interpretation, belief and choice. I am Jewish and even tough you may think I would go against Darwin for writing Decent of Man, I do not. I won't because his work was taken out of context, much like the Bible during the Crusades. Man in the end is the "evil doer" (Bushism). Darwin on his trip to Brazil was horrified at the slave situation, wrote a passage about it on his book and even help influence the abolitionist movement. Also, ID's gang forget the fact that in 1994 a fossil of animals found in the Indian subcontinent had front and hind limbs capable of walking on land and swimming on water. I have read a couple of ID books and they do not mention it once!


..such as racism WILL NOT ever be solved by any of mans efforts.


Wrong. This attitude is like saying" let's keep things the way they are, not worth changing it". The more we challenge the status quo, the better society will be. I am glad you were not alive in the 1800's!
I Digress
written by dnbaiacu, March 16, 2008
Thank you to everyone for your input. I didn't come on to win an argument. smilies/smiley.gif Just enjoying everyones views. I love Science. I love the Bible. I've researched enough to conclude that one doesn't contradict the other. Values and principles are MIND based. And the human mind distinguishes itself from animals for a reason. Science would show that things went along here just fine without MAN. But , here we are, so there must be a reason. A purpose maybe. Especially if it is by "Intelligent Design"., which seems to be in question. Because it can't be PROVEN. Yet we all know a watch that tells time doesn't come together on its own. ?????
Man appears to have an affinity with VALUES and PRINCIPLES, but somehow this can't be explained where this all comes from. It's pretty obvious that some values and principles do in fact work for the improvement of the community at large . Making the individual or group more "FIT" for survival. Somehow Darwins theory of survival of the fittest applies to everything else BUT the human mind . But if it does apply , and VALUES and PRINCIPLES are mind based things , wouldn't it stand to reason that they exist for our survival as a HUMAN race?
Maybe it just will be that the fittest in VALUES and PRINCIPALS will be the survivors. Because it is pretty apparent that lack thereof is what's destroying the planet, keeping division and wars going. We are all in this place called EARTH. It is not just Brazil the U.S or Cambodia. Earth! There is a conscience and consciousness (with knowledge) for a reason. Our ablity "to" REASON" must be for a reason.
Abe clearly wants descendants of slaves to VALUE themselves. That takes a proper education relavant to their culture. If the State is interested in that,, remains to be seen. That all depends on how much freedom they want descendants of slaves to have. All of us on this panel know it's about mind control. Brazil and the U.S are capitalists countries , it doesn't pay for everyone to know that they can be better and do better. The "slaves" if only mental , must be maintained. To maintain the imbalance . To keep those in control WITH the control.
Racism is FEAR based. We haven't gone there.... Is fear ever going to end ??? Not likely anytime soon. Not without an elevation of consciousness( with knowledge) .
Who instills in us this fear? Who promotes it? Could it be these invisible ET's that make people look and act ugly.? smilies/wink.gif Voodoo, Candomble, Illuminati, Skulls&Bones, Freemasonry...hmmm. These unseen forces go for the MIND . So it must be significant to them . And that same MIND that has an affinity to VALUES and PRINCIPLES.

People... It's all about LOVE. And the worlds most widely distributed book teaches that. Love is the opposite of Fear. God is Love.. Man is made in Gods' image , so that book says.
But of course there is no PROOF that God exists.
Well there is no PROOF that all this energy just came out of nowhere. ......
So it just comes down to what you CHOOSE to believe.. Free Will.
As Darwin would have it , even in this case , he who makes the better or fittest CHOICES even in what they BELIEVE (and thoughts are things) will survive.....
Reason will have you look and around and see "DESIGN" in everything you see. But that's getting off the subject.
But IF our minds were DESIGNED then there must have been a purpose in mind.
It all comes back to what we believe on this basic matter. Now that I see Shelys' position , I understand where her comments come from . As well as Thaddeus. It all makes sense to keep groping in the dark trying to "find" the answers outside of yourself. It is all in peoples MINDS. Minds with variances in values and principles. The MINDS of the law-makers, educators and citizens of the world. And we have little control over that. So we can study something for years. And present the "solution" to the powers that be . And it is STILL up to them to decide with their OWN MIND to put it into practice. That's a process going nowhere fast. And with the rate our ecosystem is being destroyed with a direct connection to how certain men THINK or use their MINDS, we don't have a whole lot of time
Living species that get sick and don't perform their function,,, die. The weak of living species die or are preyed on. That's science.
Apply this to MAN. A weak mind , which includes its VALUES and PRINCIPLES will be very limited at best, or die. Thoughts are forms of energy and the "strong will survive"...Period!
Now whose Values and Principles are the fittest? .... Only time will tell. And the other question is,,,,have we been left in the dark about this.?
Haha
written by A Brazilian, March 16, 2008
At its base, math is philospohical and thus cultural. There's no God- or nature-given reason why you calculate in base 10, Abe. Other cultures have worked out perfectly useful mathematical systems based on base 6, for example.


...

After this one I have to give up. Both Thaddeus and Shelly are jokes. According to them the PI is "cultural" and not inherent to the order of the universe, it means that it was invented by humans and before humanity came up with it there were no circles in nature. Hahaha. Logic and numbers were discorevered by humans at some point in time, but they always existed, people just weren't aware of them. They exist in the universe and are given to us by nature. It's the only true universal language. So much universal that if some alien race visited Earth they would also have the same notion of numbers and logic.

The lamest comment ever.

Baiacu. For what I could read you understood quite well, except I wouldn't call that standardization, but just becoming aware of the reality around us. In the past tribes performed rituals to be favored in a variety of activities, such as agriculture and wars, because they didn't know better. They believed that if they failed to perform the rituals then all kinds of bad things would happen to them. They were ignorant. What's the point of perpetuating this kind of nonsense? Those sorry excuses for scientists, that believe that Mathematics is some sort of fiction (haha), want us to believe that a much toothless and ignorant f**ks in the middle of nowhere dacing around a fire are "equally valid" to an evolved society.

A comment about the black culture in Brazil. An image speaks for a thousand words:

http://animals.timduru.org/dir...mating.jpg

They can't come up with anything that doesn't involve f**king, breasts, butts or genitals. The image above is the perfect representation of the current state of culture among them.
Simpleton
written by dnbaiacu, March 16, 2008
You are not so simple smilies/smiley.gif I enjoyed "Entropy"
Hey, Abie couldn't resist coming back and posting!
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 16, 2008
Abie, old shoe! Your back! Didn't you have better things to do? I mean, you keep on telling us you're giving up, then you come back to get slapped around some more. You remind me of my cat. smilies/grin.gif

After this one I have to give up. Both Thaddeus and Shelly are jokes. According to them the PI is "cultural" and not inherent to the order of the universe, it means that it was invented by humans and before humanity came up with it there were no circles in nature.


Who's talking about Pi, Abie? I read Alan Sokal's work on pi probably long before you did. To claim that math is culturally built is not the same thing as claiming that pi doesn't work within a given mathematical structure. One can build many different sorts of mathematical systems and, in fact, mathematicians do it all the time. But given how math describes the underlying reality of the cosmos, different systems will come up with different ways of describing the same things. What I said is that one can create a reasonable math system on base 6 and another completely reasonable math system in base 10. The number used to describe pi would be different but the actual phenomenon described would be the same as it, itself, is not a culturally created phenomenon.

So yes, math is culturally constructed (and, in fact, Sokal has already cheerfully admitted this) but what it DESCRIBES isn't.

For those of you wondering what this all means, Alan Sokal is a physicist who once hoaxed "Social Text", a post-modernist journal with a piece which claimed that Pi itself (not the symbol, but the reality it described) was a culturally created artifact of western culture. What Abe is trying to do is construct a rather clever strawman here by associating my views with the kind of stupidity Sokal lampooned.

However, Sokal - and science in general - has no problem at all believing that the scientific language in general and math in particular is a cultural construct. What they DO NOT claim (and what Sokal cleverly did claim in his article - something the editors should have caught, but didn't) is that the underlying reality of the universe is created by belief and is thus a cultural construct.

This may all be rather heady stuff for some folks, so let's see if I can give an example which will explain it a bit more simply...

Languages are cultural constructs. The words and symbols they use are not determined by God or Mother Nature, but are determined by human socio-historical experience. One thus has many different words in the world for the same thing: water and água, for example. This does not mean that water itself is created by culture, however. In the same way, math is a language and as such is a cultural product. "Pi" is a symbol and culturally constructed, but the reality it describes is not. One could easily create other mathematical languages to describe what we call Pi. Base six math (that is, number series which jump an order of magnitude every 6 numbers instead of every 10, as our math uses) can easily describe Pi and it's numeric value is not the same as Pi in base 10 math - just like água and water describe the same reality without being the same word.

So nice try, Abie. Maybe you can catch a real post-modernist with that rhetorical trick some day, but today ain't the day, because I'm not a post-modernist. I believe in a base reality and I also believe that the ways in which we describe said reality are very diverse. That most certainly is not a anti-scientific, anti-positivist, or anti-rational position. Maybe you should go back and READ what Sokal actually wrote? Just a thought... smilies/cheesy.gif
Abe the ape
written by ..., March 16, 2008
Ape,

I took time to see your link, it truly speaks about where you are in the evolution. Sorry, but your comments are pathetic and childish. I am glad you are ZE NINGUEM in Brazil, especially when it comes to politics. You are a danger to society, your fascist views of a homogenized society is nothing new Mr. Hitler. Can you come up with something truly unique?
Abe, a dog-f**ker?
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 16, 2008
They can't come up with anything that doesn't involve f**king, breasts, butts or genitals.


My only question, Abe, is if you really believe the bulls**t you spew. I can't believe that you are so culturally ignorant that you really believe that all - or even most - black art in Brazil is pornography. I mean, that would require a really serious degree of ignorance and you don't seem to be an ignorant guy. (For folks you can't bring themselves to click on the link, Abe has graced our site with a picture of two dogs f**king as his example of a "picture is worth a thousand words" re: black culture.

So the only other explanation here is that Abe has posted the photo because while he knows that his comments are full of s**t, he gets his rocks off by making outrageously racist comments in public - kinda like a little kid suffering from Tourette's syndrome.

What's interesting to me, though, is that Abe went through all that trouble to search the internet for a picture of two dog's f**king. I'm now wondering if this isn't on his "favorites" list...? Because hell, that's an awful lot of effort just to concoct an elementary-school level insult.
Francis
written by ..., March 16, 2008
Vestibular

Brazil uses the European approach to university entrance, rather than the US approach. The European approach requires students to pass a complex variety of exams - in England (where I am from) they are called the A level exams. In England the average public school provides adequate preparation for students to pass these college entry-level tests, and thus parents do not have to pay for expensive private schools and tutors to prepare their students to pass these exams.


I have lived, had children in your country-which is mine also, I am a British citizen. You have portrayed a slight lie here-maybe you are not to par of how the wealthy deal with A level exam. I took several A levels in order to enter a university in England. Nowadays, people like my sister-in-law (they are wealthy) pay for private schools and coaching on entrance exams. Still, the "avarage" school in England should be able to provide good education. Mind you in counties like Essex or some parts of London, is hardly any different from Rio. Do you care to mention about the YOB culture? Care to mention that the police are powerless when dealing with street crime and robbery by yobs?

The grass is always greener-in England in this case, it has to do with the amount of freaking rain we get! smilies/wink.gif
Thaddeus
written by ..., March 16, 2008
Don't worry, Abe is incapable of making any sense. By all means, he is a racist person, and has shown with his pathetic ad nauseum comments that he sees the black culture as inferior.
...
written by João da Silva, March 16, 2008
I have lived, had children in your country-which is mine also, I am a British citizen.


By any chance, are you Ronald Biggs?
Abe Give It A Break...
written by dnbaiacu, March 17, 2008
I understand your point clearly. But it is Slave mentality or culture we are dealing with here in Brazil and the U.S for that matter. Without an education , specifically about how they are better than this , won't change anything. Thank God just about anyone can CHOOSE to know with the help of the State. Waiting on the State to teach them.

African and indigenous tribes are stuck in time warps. And many by choice. But the 'multi-culturalism' I think is just saying that even in those cultures there is something we can learn from and capitalize on. They aren't all bad,,just different.. My relatives in Baiacu know their herbal remedies well. Something anyone can benefit from. But yes also the community has a lot alcoholism, and irresponsible baby making. And a high illiteracy rate. All rooted in choices. They aren't choosing properly so they stay limited..
I think you get upset when a multiculturalist says, "well that's part of their CULTURE , so it is ok." (yet all the knowing that that is what is holding them back and "keeping" them dominated.). I certainly hope that is not how multiculturalism works. All this Cultural and Moral relativism is confusing to me.
That "awareness" you speak of goes into the spiritual realm.. Consciousness. Having a conscience.. Harnessing nuclear energy for mass destrution is hardly a choice based on good values and principles. Yet this is exactly what these "more advanced" so their called cultures do. So in effect they are no better than blood drinking tribes that dance around a fire . Ignorance can be destructive. So can intelligence not used properly. The bottom line is the Values and Principles. Something that scientists and professors act like they have an aversion to. Somewhere God will have to come into play and that's where they all get cold feet. And discount Intelligent Design.
The U.S , leaders in technology..But at the same time the biggest consumers and distributors of porn. The worlds most obese population. And they'd rather throw money into space as opposed to elevating its' standards in public schools.
Every culture has strengths and obvious weaknesses.
I believe there are HUMAN YET DIVINELY INSPIRED VALUES to aspire to. They transcend all cultures and ethnicites, (let's take this whole stupid concept of race out of the picture) . The more you become AWARE or conscious (with knowledge) the more freedom you maintain to achieve what you want in the time you are around and what the circumstances permit.
You have to get rid of the slave mentality.. It gets bigger than that though. Oppressive cultures (any culture that dominates another intra or inter national) are slaves to their own fears. So know one has a real upperhand on the road to improvement.. A better place for everyone. Racism is rooted in fear.. Fear of sharing. Fear that someone is going to take over me and my community. It is really infantile when you look at it. Because there could be so much abundance to go around. But there is always a sense of insecurity to some degree without a "father" present. But I don't want to go on that tirade.
I like your values platform. So needed.
continued
written by dnbaiacu, March 17, 2008
What I like about Thaddeus view is that it DOESN"T knock other cultures. It lets them be what they are. There is no talk of 'eliminating" them or that they "have' to change. If Thaddeus and Shelys view is correct , we can trust as nature and science would have it , if it's not "fit" enough to be around , it won't be around long. For example many of todays impovershed areas are simply a result of having more babies than you can feed and raise well. Just using your MIND in respects to family planning alone can possibly make it better for yourself or the next generation. But it is one of those things you have to be "taught" or "aware" of.
Copulating was the closest thing to fun and a distraction many slaves were allowed to have . Is it any surprise that it permeates the music of its' descendants. Values, Values, Values. Lack of them can and does result in a mis-management of energy. But you have to be "taught" otherwise.
I think you get upset like I said before because a lot of these "intelligent "people and all their cultural and moral relativism know this , and think that it ok , cute and different. That , "I will let you entertain me , but of course I'd never live like that. In fact I may just leave you to continue like that exactly to show "my" kids just how NOT to be. "Sorry Thaddeus but having a "stable" of women, legally married or not, with just one father to go around among a host of kids is just not in the best interests emotionally and otherwise for the children. Studies show this.
And Thaddeus just because someone decides to put some chocolate in their milk doesn't mean they aren't racist or don't support racist thinking. Referring to where he mentions "mixed couples' in SP. I was surprised he went there with that one. Racism exist from the top down in Brazil. And none of us can be sure of what's in the mind of those at the top. What Values or Principles they have. The civil rights movement was only successful in the U.S, (if it can really be deemed as a success) because not only had blacks become more "aware" through knowledge, due to the WEALTH of the country making it impossible to keep holding them back. But it was no longer in the economic best interests of the country to maintain Jim Crow laws. . Shortly after drugs were allowed to pour into black communities. Further exploiting a lack of values and keeping prisoners of the MIND. Hip Hop culture , the same thing. And look how much money goes into that. True, black people do it to themselves. But hey , no one is trying to stop them either.
It is nice that some of us are thinking about these things. Maybe even doing something to help.
Each one teach one. And the strong will survive. The mentally strong will survive. Those not worried about survival on a daily basis. Those not under the influence of alcohol or drugs. And those not thinking about sex most of the day.
It is about channeling your energy in productive areas and Values and Principles help one do that.
...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 17, 2008
African and indigenous tribes are stuck in time warps.


Oh, please, Dn. Do you even know anything about Africa today? Africa's problems are not the leftovers of unevolved tribalism. Please, READ about a continent before you stick the millions of people living on it into a little determinist basket and go on your merry way.

But yes also the community has a lot alcoholism, and irresponsible baby making.


The very white, very German community I spent half of my growing up time in also had those same problems. They are not the specialty of African or Native peoples, Dn.

Copulating was the closest thing to fun and a distraction many slaves were allowed to have . Is it any surprise that it permeates the music of its' descendants.


Of course, white people NEVER thought about copulating for the pure fun of it. Their culture is quite beyond that. Which is why when you listen to, say, U.S. American country music, there's hardly ever a mention of sex, booze, gratuitous violence, or anything like that, right Dn? Those sort of topics are exclusively "black". Which is also, of course, why I can never listen to John Coltrane without getting a hard-on. Man, the pornographic imagery that man uses...! [roll eyes]

Right: black music = sex. White music = god and the higher principles of life. Franz Fanon would have a field day analyzing you guys. You project onto the Other precisely that which you fear in yourselves.

[sorry] Sorry Thaddeus but having a "stable" of women, legally married or not, with just one father to go around among a host of kids is just not in the best interests emotionally and otherwise for the children. Studies show this.

Depends on the culture. It's probably not a good thing in most contemporary western cultures, but other human cultures seem to have got on just fine with that sort of arrangement. Studies DEFINITELY show that.

And Thaddeus just because someone decides to put some chocolate in their milk doesn't mean they aren't racist or don't support racist thinking.


Lol! Really?! No kidding. And here all this time I thought chocolate milk was a sure-fire innoculation against racism. I guess I'm gonna have to scratch that one off my list...

Hip Hop culture , the same thing.


Do you even know what "hip hop culture" is, Dn? Because it seems to me as if you're saying Puff Daddy and De La Soul push the same values and that would be a ridiculous statement.

Dn, all I can say is this: if you think Abe seriously has in mind the welfare of people who are darker-skinned than he is when he posts the crap he posts here, then you really need to do a reality check.
Now, here's where Abe might actually have a point...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 17, 2008
A bassackwards point, but a point nevertheless.

Recently in Brazil, we've been going through a spate of affirmative action education which is supposedly designed to bring African and African-Brazilian topics and history into the classroom in an attempt to "improve students' self-esteem" and promote "their social inclusion".

Because of this trend, as a social scientist and educator, I've had to sit through dozens of well-intentioned but incredibly ignorant lesson plans and presentations designed to "recover" Black history in Brazil. In almost every case - no, I take that back: in EVERY case so far, what "inclusion" and "teaching history" seems to revolve around is teaching young Brazilians the following messages...

1) Black contributions to Brazil amount to a handful of folkloric rituals (Maracatú), unpopular religions (candomblé), some musical forms (invariably samba) and an esoteric martial arts style (capoeira). Oh, yeah. And acarajé. Can'1 forget acarajé.

2) Africa is a country where black people come from. It has a unified and homogenous culture which has not eveolved beyond the early bronze age. Most Africans still make their living hunting lions and elephants on the savanna. They don't read or write, but are good musicians. They like to wear funny looking clothes and - although in all respects they seem to be much less evolved than we are - we should treat them with respect because some of our great-grandparents came from there.

3) Slavery was an institution in which only white people profitted and all black and brown people were oppressed. When you think "slavery", just look for the black man and white man: the first is automatically an evil oppressor; the second, an innocent victim. It's better that we just not talk about WOMEN (white or black) in slavery times, either.

4) The Good Princess Isabela waved her bejewelled hand and freed the slaves by royal decree and suddenly, all the white people in Brazil realized that they had been doing a Bad Thing. Since then, although we have to deal with racism (which is the idea that some people are just bad people), black and brown Brazilians have been on a direct road to Progress and Happiness. This is proven by the fact...

5) ...that there are so many successful and rich black people in Brazil today. Like... well, like [name of famous football player or musician]. And of course, all of us Brazilians have SOME black in us, somewhere, so our advance as individuals and as a nation can really be seen as an advance for blacks. At least if you squint real hard and don't ask too many questions.

Now, of course, I'm exagerating the above list for hyberbolic and humorous effect, but anyone who's been paying attention to how the federal government's recent decrees on institutionalizing the teaching of black history and culture in Brazilian schools have actually been put into effect will realize how LITTLE I'm actually exagerating.

Such material has mythology, folklore and sometimes out-and-out racist stereotypes masquerading as black history and cultural studies. Most of the people teaching this stuff don't know s**t about Africa and - frankly - can't be bothered to learn.

...continued...
...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 17, 2008
At a recent conference here in Rio, I was treated to a local black activist teacher's presentation of an incredibly patronizing "black history" video which featured two little bushmen staking a zebra. We then got to see another video series, produced by the federal government, which focused on capoeira and prejudice against Africans. A master's student in history, whose one of our carioca leading lights in designing "black affirmative" curricula got up and complained how his education at UFRJ didn't prepare him for teaching African history. Now, this was true enough, as far as it goes, but when I asked him what he'd taught himself since then, it turned out that that was a big goose-egg, too. Though he recognized that classic works exist in Portuguese on Africa and could even name them, he'd still not bothered to actually READ one. I guess he's waiting for the government to make him do it.

Then I got to see one of the true masterworks of the movement: the books they're using in the classroom.

One of my favorites, which talks about the oppression of slavery, shows a well-known painting by Debret which depicts a Portuguese cobbler applying the palmatório to his reluctant slave worker. Edited out of the painting, however, were the cobbler's son and mulata wife, the woman laughing at the slave's punishment because she had engineered it. I also got to see another famous painting of Debret's of a carioca slave market where the black and brown buyers had all been literally white-washed.

Interesting, no?

While I do not agree with Abe's paranoid reading of such things as the workings of a yankee-racist-communist plan to subvert life as we know it, I have to ask myself, what are such intentional editings of the historical record supposed to prove to children? That all black and brown Brazilians are essentially one single race, set at odds with all white Brazilians? That certainly seems to be the message here. And I wonder what kind of lives the people who write these books think the children are living?

When I go out to the impoverished community of Banco de Areia to visit my sister-in-law, one of the things that always strikes me, watching my niece play, is the great variety of skin colors of her playmates, which range from dark black on up to fish-belly white. This color range is reflected in the range of their parents. While the residents of Banco de Areia can be generally classified as "brown" on average, individually they cover the whole color spectrum of human genetic variance. What kind of conclusion is a kid like my niece going to come to when she reads books like the ones my misguided colleagues are producing? Fortunately, it's not the one Abe fears, that white people are inherently evil. Unfortunately, it's the conclusion that these African curriculum courses have very little that's interesting or relevant to her life and - since nobody really likes them anyways - they can be safely ignored.

This is the kind of mentality that results in the abysmal ignorance which is expressed by Abe and Dn above. Why can people like them make the claim that "black" culture is all about carnality? Well, for heaven's sake WHERE are they going to learn ANYTHING ELSE?

Do we, here in Brazil, talk about modern Africa? Do we teach our kids that black culture and history - being by definition anything that black people do - also includes people like André Rebouças and Machado de Assis? do they learn about the great freudian psychologist, Franz Fanon? About the freedom fighter Nelson Mandela? Do they learn about the colonization of Africa, the problems its caused and how that relates to Brazilian history? Do we talk about how jazz, blues, choró and samba - all musical forms widely recognized as black - have been the sound track of 20th century urban modernity, are in fact, musical forms which could ONLY spring out of an urban, industrial and modern experience? Do we have our kids read Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man" or Richard Wright's "Native Son"? Do we talk about the fight against segregation in the U.S. and apartheid in South Africa? Do we explain what slavery really WAS and what it was like and how abolition came about? Do we point out people like Abdias do Nascimento and Benedita da Silva as examples of Black Brazilian heroes?

Do we, in short, discuss black modernity AT ALL?

Hell no, we don't. We teach our kids how to play capoeira and how to drum and tell them that this is the sum of black culture.

So when a little racist s**t like Abe comes along and snidely remarks that blacks have never done anything culturally worthwhile, HOW IN THE HELL DO WE EXPECT OUR KIDS TO REFUTE HIS BULLs**t?
Thaddeus...
written by dnbaiacu, March 17, 2008
I am black.. I understand our issues. In no way am I belittling my own culture. But I recognize that a large part of the slave mentality still remains and this is proving to be an obstacle to advancement to a large degree. Black in the U.S and Brazil CANNOT AFFORD to do certain things. Like have babies they can't afford. Make a mockery of getting an education. And spending an inordinate amount of time with sex. No comparison to white people that already have an economic base and navigate through a system in which they are privleged . And in Brazil or the U.S , that is the case. Caucasians have a free pass. Minorities don't . So therefore they can't afford to do too much more of what will limit their oppurtunities. W.E B Dubois understood this and so did Booker T Washington.
Now I assume this German community you were talking about was in Germany. If it was a poor community , it still amounts to a form of economic slavery and lack of knowledge and therefore they remain prisoners to the results of their own behaviors.
These cultures that allow polygamy that you referred to.. Well the vast majority of them are throwing sticks and stones at bulldozers. And are under very oppresive religious governments. No one is in a hurry to take on their values. And the only ones that are benefiting are the sheiks who are business partners and or being pimped by the U.S and England.
People know and intuit higher values when they see them. One man to one woman just plain works. Anything outside of that is problematic , no matter how popular or enjoyable.

De La Soul is not current hip/hop, it is old school. Don't go there.
I am black.. I support my culture. I know that it has issues. I KNOW we need better values .. Period! There is no question about that. Please don't make excuses or comparisons for us. It doesn't help at all.
...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 17, 2008
And spending an inordinate amount of time with sex.


How much time is that, Dn? Want to give us an estimate? Is twice a week too much? Three times? I'd like some concrete guidelines here.

[quote[ No comparison to white people that already have an economic base and navigate through a system in which they are privleged .

You forget that race isn't the only factor in this game. Class is a BIGGIE. White trash don't have much of an economic base.

These cultures that allow polygamy that you referred to.. Well the vast majority of them are throwing sticks and stones at bulldozers.


I don't know if I'd classify Islam as a stone-age culture, seeing as how the U.S. is paying them for gas. And as for whether or not you and I want to take on their values, well... a billion of them is enough in anyone's book, don't you think? I doubt they're going to disappear - or even substantially reduce in number, so ruling them out of human history just because you disagree with their values is pretty stupid in my book.

People know and intuit higher values when they see them. One man to one woman just plain works. Anything outside of that is problematic , no matter how popular or enjoyable.


So you say. Taken a look at divorce rates lately? One woman, one man doesn't seem to be working well these days, does it? Nor, in my experience, do people intuit higher values when they see them. What you believe are higher values is hotly contested by much of the planet and all you've got to say to that is "well if they don't agree with me, they are savages". Nice.

De La Soul is not current hip/hop, it is old school. Don't go there.


I'll go where I want, thanks. You said "hip hop culture" as if it were a homogenous thing. Now you're making nice distinctions between old school and new school? Please... As if old school hip hop didn't have a gansta element and new school a more progressive element.

I am black.. I support my culture. I know that it has issues. I KNOW we need better values .. Period! There is no question about that. Please don't make excuses or comparisons for us. It doesn't help at all.


First of all, who's making excuses? Can you show me, please?

Secondly, black or not, what right do you have to speak for "your" culture as if you had a personal title to it or as if you comprehended every aspect of black experience on this planet? Are you seriously claiming that historical and cultural knowledge is transmitted by the quantity of melanin in one's skin?

Dn, você fala português? Escreve a língua? Conhece a história do Brasil afro-descendente (ou melhor ainda, as histórias, plural)? Pois se não, como é que você consegue falar de "valores negros" no Brasil?



Posso falar de "valores negro"
written by dnbaiacu, March 17, 2008
pq minha mae e' uma filha da Bahia. Voce e' muita arrogante. E nao comecar discutindo com voce. Antes achei que voce era inteligente , mas agora tenho minhas duvidas. Tenho que me desculpar por ter falado com voce ate' agora. E embora o que estou escrevendo seja errado , da pra voce entender. E' triste que voce questionou se eu entenderia portuguese. Arrogante mesmo! Abe tinha razao! Ja' vou!
Abe....
written by dnbaiacu, March 18, 2008
If you are even bothering to read this at this point. It is funny how if you let someone talk or write enough their true colors will come out. Mr Blanchette questioned whether or not I spoke or wrote portuguese and although I did make a mistake or two writing back , I needed to make it clear to such a low blow that I knew enough. My mother is bahian and I speak and write the language well enough to get around.
I see why you guys were arguing . But it is a waste of time. There is no need to argue over this anyway. You are right , it IS about VALUES. I don't know your race or where you fall on the color chart in Brasil or wherever you are., but yes , for afro-brazilians and afro-americans. Heck poor people period, it is all about Values. That is what works. All this wordy ultra intellectual "stuff" he writes. Any black person in the U.S or Brazil with half a brain that our problem is values. Whether someone wants to follow a set of values, and I am not talking about "generic" ones either, is another story.
So typical to attack me personally.. I never did that to him. So now we see what we are dealing with. I have LIVED the black experience in the States and Brazil. I know firsthand what black folks need. AN EDUCATION AND VALUES period. Now if Blanchette can find a way to bring this about all his talk will be worth something. Until then
FORA COM A BOBAGEM!
Empurra-Empurra
written by Simpleton, March 18, 2008
Puffer-Fish, calm down - don't blow. Neither your family nor your "brotheren" down yonder would see what the educator TB wrote as some type of attack / reason to go postal. You yourself "assumed" TB's childhood alemanic exposure was in Germany. Very well could be it was in fact in Brazil. As to Abe, TB probably has seen the rants from that one as long as I have. I'll speak nothing more about apparently overly protected upbringings / closed mindedness / glass houses. How long did you say you've been imbued with / tainted by northern experiences?
...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 18, 2008
Pode ser que sua mãe é da Bahia, mas e você? Não estamos falando do conhecimento de sua mãe, mas de seu. Como Adrian uma vez adverteu nesse forum, o fato de você ter cidadania brasileira não quer dizer que você sabe do Brasil: só que dizer que você deve saber. E você, que acha que a cultura negra brasileira é baseada em sexo sabe algo, por acaso, sobre esse país? Filho, a maioria de militantes negros brasileiros que conheço te daria uma tapa na bunda por sugerir que as negras trepam mais que as brancas. Credo, nem o Gilberto Freyre chegou a dizer tanta besteira!

E pode me desculpar ou não, meu amigo, mas acho arrogante dizer que, em função de seu cor, que você tem a capacidade inata de julgar as múltiplas e diversas culturas negras desse planeta como "válidas" ou não. Eu posso ser arrogante, meu camarada, mas isto é algo quer eu jamais faria.

Quer falar em arrogância? Você, que se sente capaz de classificar 1 bilhão de mulçumanos como uma população essencialmente fora da história humana? Você, que acredite que seus valores fazem de você um escolhido de Deus? Você que classifique 500 anos de cultura negra brasileira como fruta de "uma mentalidade escrava"? Você é humilde e sábio por acaso?

Ao que me parece, você ainda é bastante jovem e - embora filho de imigrante brasileiro - conhece muito pouco sobre Brasil. Todavia, me pergunto como seus avós e bisavós baianos se sentiriam se eles pudessem ouvir você concordar com um racista brasileira sobre a suposta "carnalidade essencial da cultural negra". Olha só, Dn, você precisa acordar desse sonho seu se acha que vale a pena "tentar encontrar o bom" num brasileiro branco e descaradamente racista como Abe. Você tem um problema muito além da arrogância se você quer me lecionar sobre a "cultura do seu povo". Você, que balança a cabeça, feito papagaio de pirata, quando Abe equipa a cultura negra brasileira a dois cachorros transando na rua, quer se auto-eleger o defensor das culturas negras do mundo?

Ahn, não! Cai fora dessa, meu filho, pois esse papo não engana ninguém.

...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 18, 2008
A propósito, Sr. Baiano, você pode me dar o nome de um só pensador negro brasileiro que crítica a cultura negra como o resultado de "uma mentalidade escrava"? Eu consigo pensar em um - bem famoso, aliás - mas desconfio que você conhece o nome dele, embora para a intelectualidade negra brasileira, esse homem é uma figura tão importante quanto Angela Davis é para os americanos. E mesmo ele não fala na sexualização excessiva da cultura negra. Ao que me parece, você está escutadno demais a certas formas de hip-hop americano e generalizando os particulares dessa música para todas as culturas negras do planeta inteiro.

Só quero saber se você conhece o nome dessa figura, tão chave no pensamento de "sua cultura". Aliás, sendo o homem negro brasileiro tão bem informado que você, será que você conhece os nomes de seis pensadores negros desse país?

Sendo que, aparentemente, você ainda falta conhecer grande parte das culturas negras no Brasil, deixarei você aqui com uma música de Wilson Moreira: "Procure ser gente". sugiro que você presta atenção nas letras e aí vai me falar sobre a sexualidade na música negra brasileira.

I gotta say one thing about this whole deal, though: only in Brazil can an openly racist f**k like Abe convince a young black man that African-Brazilian culture is "too sexual to be civilized". Now I truly can say I've seen just about every weirdness in the field of race that this country can possibly throw up. smilies/tongue.gif
Simpleton
written by dnbaiacu, March 18, 2008
smilies/grin.gif You are so funny smilies/smiley.gif Thanks for making me laugh. Maybe I shouldn't have taken it as an attack. But at the same time it was probably best that I make it clear that I am not out of touch with the issue despite not being a "professor" or a "scientist".
He made a reference to poor Germans. And that was ok , because that is the whole point, they're "poor". Not enough education to learn any values(for the most part , we know there are plenty of poor people that have values), therefore the resulting problems of generational poverty which is in most instances directly traced to "unplanned parenthood". In other words if you minimize the chaos in your life , you may be able to sit still and concentrate on something.
Blacks in Brazil and the U.S are generally "poor" so they are going to have issues that are a direct result of a lack of knowledge and resources, let alone "wisdom" (applied knowledge).
I know enough of both cultures. I was born and raised in Ohio . And my family has traveled back and forth to Brazil since I was a child. My mothers family originates from the island of Itaparica in the Bay of All Saints. Trust!,, Black folks need values.. Which ones?... Ones that work. (Another subject)

Affirmative action and quotas WORK in the U.S for who it is designed to work for. I also question such effectiveness of programs like that in Brazil .We are talking about a place where no one wants to be labled "black" in general. But if such programs were instituted , the very same ones that don't want to be labled "black" would "conveniently become such to get benefits.
A black middle class in the U.S was "maintained" specifically after the removal of Jim Crow BECAUSE of affirmative action. Most employers didn't have enough VALUES to look beyond the color of ones skin. And why would you expect anyone to.??? The reality is men will always have contention amongst themselves. So laws have to be made to make things just a little fair.
Now we can HOOand HAW about racism, but the truth is , a lot of us black people are kicking ourselves in the butt. And it is NOT CUTE! No matter how hip/hop culture is glamorized these days. (different topic , different story) .
It's slave culture. Slave mentality. Abe got a little raw. But let's face it. Pants and jeans hanging off the butt in the U.S . And bermudas hanging butt crack showing in Salvador. Pull them up already.! What's the message. What are these values?...
I don't know what Mr.Blanchette is , German, Canadian whatever. But until you have LIVED this madness. When you see your relatives being killed off mentally and otherwise. All the studying about it and arguing about it isn't going to do any good. At the end of the day it is about VALUES and PRINCIPLES and my illiterate cousins can tell you that.
It is so funny how these "intellectuals" discount INTELLIGENT DESIGN. Where do they think they got the intelligence from , which in many cases doesn't seem so "intelligent" at all. ???
Simpleton,,, stay simple. And again,, thanks for making me laugh.. I was hot , because I was digging a lot of Blanchettes writings . And I still don't take much away from them. But after a few statements he made, I am concluding he should spend more time analyzing his OWN culture.
It's about VALUES dude. Start at your local bookstore . Go to "Self-Help" (pop psychology , new age,what have you, and work your way back in time.. Koran , Bible, Torah.
It's so simple ,, it really is..
Ignorance makes it complex.
Thaddeus
written by dnbaiacu, March 18, 2008
You really misunderstood a lot that I wrote. You tend to take things out of context. You have ran quite a way with the little I have said.. But I think other bloggers can see that. People know where I am coming from. And I am probably wasting time explaining this to you.
I don't know whether Abe is racist or not. Haven't been blogging with him that long to tell. And I didn't get the impression that he seeks to "invalidate" negro culture. Nor did I as a black get the impression that he thinks everything european is superior. What stuck out in my mind was the values issue.
By the way I didn't discredit the muslim culture either. It is a take off and back lash against hypocritic Christianity. Its ' values despite the polygamy element mimic much of Christianity. Many of Islams adherents have no choice in the matter because State and religion are intertwined.
But now I am catching myself defending everything I have said. And I am not going to get caught up in this. If you want arguments,, you win. I am going to continue to help myself , friends and relatives with some sound VALUES AND PRINCIPLES..
Enjoy Life. Really
...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 18, 2008
He made a reference to poor Germans. And that was ok , because that is the whole point, they're "poor". Not enough education to learn any values(for the most part , we know there are plenty of poor people that have values), therefore the resulting problems of generational poverty which is in most instances directly traced to "unplanned parenthood".


Dn, I wonder what your problem with sex is that you think all or even most poverty can be traced to too many children. There's a HUGE amount of work that's been done showing just the opposite: for poor people, children are often the only form of wealth and the one assurance of retirement that they can get. This topic has been done to death in sociology: children are not the cuase of poverty. Sorry. That's just plain ridiculous.

As for "values", you keep repeating that word as if it meant something, but so far as I can see, what it means to you is that you think you have a God-given gift to determine what's good and bad in other people's cultures without even having to think about it. In other words, you think God's going to do the dirty work of trying to suss out the meaning and value behind other people's cultural mores for you.

You keep on mistaking ignorance for an informed position and you seem to think faith will resolve that contradiction. I do not think you know anything, for example, about Muslim history and cultures other than what you've picked up from American T.V., but you seem to think you're qualified to look down upon them. You seem to think that affirmative action in the U.S. educational system is about racial quotas: it isn't. How you can claim to be informed about black issues and have missed that one is beyond me. American university's most certainly do not reserve positions for students based on race: that is simply a lie that gets passed around by the likes of the KKK from time to time.

You say "Abe got a little raw". Comparing African Americans to dogs f**king at random in the street is "a little raw" in your book? Meanwhile, I'm a bastard because I am stating plainly that in spite of your ethnicity, you are not well-informed enough to make the kind of sweeping, incredibly ethnocentric judgements about black cultures that you are engaging in here? All I can say is that that's some value system you got there, Dn!

And please, don't talk to me about ignorance and illiteracy and then start rambling on about intelligent design. You have free reign to believe what you want based on faith, but there is little to no evidence that God made the planet in 7 days about 30,000 years ago. If you believe that that is a scientific and rational view of things, you are having a hard time understanding the difference between rationality and faith.

Why do intellectuals discount intelligent design? Very simple: intellectuals operate on rationality and rationality implies that one follows the best set of proofs available. In short, the proof for intelligent design is VASTLY outweighed by the proof that evolution is the mechanism by which organisms come into being and change. Evolution, in fact, has been proven in the laboratory on several different occasions. Finally, it seems to me to indicate a supreme LACK of faith in God to believe that science must "prove" the Bible to be literally correct. If God is truly a supreme and atemporal being, existing outside of our immediate frame of reference, "7 days" for him could be 20 billion years. The evolution of species, to him, could be instantaneous. It's only us poor time bound mortals that see it as a process. In short, there is no contradiction at all between believing in God and believing that evolution theory more-or-less describes the physcial biological processes going on in the world about us.

It doesn't seem to me that one needs to be very intelligent to come to this conclusion and it always suprises me when relatively intelligent Christians, like yourself, choose to ignore what God is clearly showing us in favor of a literal interpretation of very poorly translated, abridged and politically manipulated pieces of moral poetry: the Bible, the Koran and such.

The real Bible, Dn, is the universe around us, the one thing that was demonstratably created by a non-human force. It is to that universe that you should be directing your attention, and not to the dead hand of middle eastern moralists, if you want to really hear the voice of God.

...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 18, 2008
I don't know whether Abe is racist or not. Haven't been blogging with him that long to tell. And I didn't get the impression that he seeks to "invalidate" negro culture.


You're frosted at me because I doubt you know much about Black Brazilian history - something one must LEARN, not be born to and which you have had very little opportunity to learn. But Abe claims all black culture can essentially be resumed as two dogs f**king. He calls it "afro-s**t". He claims blacks have not contributed in any measureable fashion to human progress.

But you can't figure out if the man's racist or not?

Dn, is that you have a SERIOUS perception problem. You are in no position to be pushing superior values on anyone, man.

You should seriously think about the value of a North American culture which tells you, a young black man and immigrant, that you don´t need to work at understanding the world or learn about any of that icky intellectual s**t like rationality and Occam's Razor, that simple faith in God will see you through, that rationality and science are just two big shucks that silly white people play around with because they don't understand The Truth.

What kind of future do you SERIOUSLY think that that kind of world view is going to bring you, Dn? You see many rich and powerful people, of any color, running about the world spouting that sort of stuff - other than T.V. preachers, perhaps?

Want to talk about "slave mentalities", Dn? A whole batch of slick media whizzes are giving you your prejudices and superstitions right back to you on a golden plate, telling you that they are "superior values" and all the while charging you for the priviledge of being under- and misinformed. And you know what? They are laughing all the way to the bank while they do it.

Now go ahead, child, and tell me about "values that work" and explain to me why it's generally the poor, undereducated and downtrodden in this world that believe in things like "intelligent design" and "universal values". The movers and shakers of this world manifestly don't believe in that kind of crap, but hey, I guess it must be Satan at work, right?
Values can and are Adjustable
written by Simpleton, March 18, 2008
Just like the mortgage rate DN may or may not have been "lucky" enough for someone to rob him with vs some less educated, lower valued branc. The pressures and unspoken injustices he's been spun by are clearly different than the poor and lower-middle class blacks I know in Brazil. I understand TB, that you were only trying to make a point that dn simply had no basis / insufficient background and in depth exposure / no possiblility of truely knowing the situ there but please let up on the dude okay? dn certainly doesn't know, and you apparently don't either, that Abe is a bit darker skinned than you might think. Here Abe probably wouldn't be thought of as a racist or bigot (or facist which I believe you originally said / meant and somehow let slip slide or were tricked into converting to). There, abe is not in that 6% category he / she denies is the subject of even her / his daily (but typically very indirect and veiled) derision, subjugation, distrust, discounting, etc., etc. (which abe would have you believe is for reasons other than color - like values, indiscrimenent f'ing, being poorer that ones self, lesser educated, etc., etc.) and therefore couldn't be thought of as some uberlordish type cast either.
...
written by dnbaiacu, March 18, 2008
Now
but there is little to no evidence that God made the planet in 7 days about 30,000 years ago

Fundamentalists believe this, I don't.

This is another example of you keep implying that I believe certain things. We could have a much better dialogue if you stop running away with the very little I have the time to write. That is IF you are even interested in what I write, since according to you I don't know anything.
I haven't heard all of Abe views but if they are as you say especially about Africans not being contributors, then he has issues. But I have to see this for myself. I may have missed something. And even if he said those things, we should be blogging so that we can learn something. Racism in the end , does not win. It is the racist that loses . So why argue?

Please stop attacking what you think I know or don't know about certain subjects. This is blogging , not essays or a research paper. A general statement does not have to be perceived as someone claiming what they wrote is indisp**able or even factual. You have to discern what they are implying in the context of the "position "you discern they have, with the little they have written. We are all intelligent enough on this panel to do that. It really isn't that serious. None of us here are really even solving anything.
It was silly to imply that I picked up information from the television about Muslim culture. Not true in the least . And how would I have time to prove that. Do you take out your frustrations with your students on this blog?
Thaddeus , as far as VALUES are concerned , this happens to be the latest great debate going on amongst black people in the U.S especially since the Imus incident. There is enough education accessible and plenty of money flowing through the hands of black people to be doing a lot better than they are now. It is about personal responsiblity which involves values. Like valuing yourself enough to use a condom during sex to stop the decimating of our populations with AIDS, Like spending what you earn on things that will help you to increase your wealth and less on car rims, designer clothes and such. Like not referring to yourself as a n****r , a bitch or a hoe. .It's about self-love . And these things still have yet to be learned by the community at large.
No ,, blacka aren't having sex any more than anyone else. Again,I never said that. We are talking about taking responsibility for the sex you have.If you are already at an economic disadvantage , you simply cannot afford to be irresponsible, period. And as far as having children for insurance? It's 2008 , my folks on the island know better than this. Inflation kills that. Even with the little education they have, they know that.
As far as being duped by the church? Again, ,if one actually studies the bible this is very unlikely to happen. You will know where you are being bamboozled. But if you don't read the bible for yourself you WILL be bamboozled. How many churgoers actually "study" the bible? Again, knowledge and VALUES . Basic principle, "study before you believe"
The last paragraph that you wrote was the most impressive to me of all. That just about sums it all up.. PARABEMS!

THADDEUS WROTE:

"Now go ahead, child, and tell me about "values that work" and explain to me why it's generally the poor, undereducated and downtrodden in this world that believe in things like "intelligent design" and "universal values". The movers and shakers of this world manifestly don't believe in that kind of crap, but hey, I guess it must be Satan at work, right."

You completely made my day!

We all know where the movers and shakers of the world are leading us. Just check out your evening news.

1Corinthians 1:27
but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put the strong things to shame;
1 Corinthians 1:19-21
19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] I will shove aside.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing.

JUST THOUGHT I'D SHARE THIS CRAP WITH YOU.
Peace
Pra Simple Ne'?
written by Simpleton, March 19, 2008
Escravo de ninguem - so' Deus o meu mente toturous.
African History in Brazil
written by adrianerik, March 19, 2008
While I"m not against severe modifications in Brazil's classrooms I agree with an earlier post that proponents of African History in Brazil's classrooms should be careful. As a person who took to the streets years ago to demand Black History Courses, in hindsight, what we settled for, set us back a few decades. Here's where I believe that the author of the article above had valid points. Points that were also similar to Molefi Asante (the author of AFROCENTRICITY) and who was a major developer of one of the major PhD granting Black Studies Program in the nation. (please don't digress with the term AFROCENTRICITY...it is not a variant of ethnocentrism). Both suggest that within various societies in the world, one can find how they expressed their HUMANITY through their various cultural expressions. Images of rituals and traditions, out of context, will give the image of a people running with their heads cut off.

I remember, in my freshman year in college, have to interpret the weird customs of a people called the Nacirema. Each morning these people ritualistically cut their faces until it bled, they ingested a potent poison that killed many of them, they ate raw meat and left theirelders in deserted areas to die. A horrible people, I thought. That is, until the professor revealed that Nacirema really is AMERICAN spelled backwards and the behaviours of shaving, smoking tobacco, eating beef that still bled and putting their parents in 'assisted care homes" were practices frowned upon in many so-called 'primitive societies.'

Kinda makes you wanna go "hmmm"
Spare the Anthros
written by adrianerik, March 19, 2008
Good Reading, T.B.

After the revolution, we're still going to have to machine gun the priests, the poiticians and the intellectuals ( and any Brazilian singer who re-makes American classics by singing the melody without translating the song).

But, you've made a case for the Anthros. We'll put some of you guys in charge of academics. (Definitely not culture, because you, sir, like heavy metal. Hmmm...I forgot...you do have a thing for Elza Soares. Okay. Maybe in charge of culture, too)

(watch the boy go crazy over this. actually I had an intellectual respect for him until the dog picture. prick a bigot long enough and their smile disappears and they start to foaming at the mouth - "YEAH! YEAH! I HATE n****rS! HA! HA! HEE! HEE! I HATE THEM! MAY THEY AND THEIR SAVAGE CULTURE ROT IN HELL!!!! HOO-HOO-HEE-HEE-HA-HA-HA"
...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 19, 2008
Simpleton, I highly doubt Abe is what passes for black here. Brown? Maybe.

Here Abe probably wouldn't be thought of as a racist or bigot (or facist which I believe you originally said / meant and somehow let slip slide or were tricked into converting to).


No, I meant what I said in a very precise fashion. The root ideology of fascism is the belief that people have some deep biological or quasi-biological (meaning cultural, but so deep that it can't be learned by an outsider) linkage to the country and people of their birth, that nations must be unified in the face of outside pressures and that such unification preculdes any sort of meaningful cultural or political diversity within the nation. As far as I can see, this is precisely what Abe believes.

Just because some people use "fascist" as an ad hominem insult doesn't mean that it isn't a real ideology with real followers. I'm using "fascism" here a hell of a lot more precisely than most people use "liberal", say, or "communist". Note that I didn't call Abe a "Nazi". He seems to be a fascist - or rather, a post-modern follower of the Brazilian version of fascism, integralism. Read up on integralism and tell me it doesn't fit Abe's ideology to a "t".

I don't know if we should spare the anthros, Adrian, but I am willing to go to a re-education camp and cut sugar cane for a few years if necessary. smilies/wink.gif And I'll warn you against making Ana Paula the Minister of Culture: we will all be listening to Elizete Cardoso, 24/7. Even my mother-in-law has more up-to-date music tastes than AP. smilies/smiley.gif Though hell, ANYTHING would be better than the "Kreu" - even Gene Simmons.

Has the "Kreu" made it up to Bahia yet? You will positively s**t when you see it, if you haven't seen it yet.

BtW, Ana and I use "Os Sonacirema" all the time in class. It's required reading in AP's Estudos Sócio-antropológicos course this semester. Great article!
Dn
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 19, 2008
Look, I'm sorry for being so hard on you, but it's awful difficult for me to see intelligent kids belive in whacko stuff, hving once been an intelligent kid who believed in a lot of whacko stuff, myself.

I'm aware of the "values" debate going on in Black America and I think it's mostly a shuck being produced to keep people from thinking. As I've said many times above "values" means nothing: you need to DEFINE what values and what they mean. When people aren't willing to do that, then their words mean nothing. When they do it in such a way that they out of hand toss off all sorts of cultural forms as inferior, then I think they are being prejudiced bastards.

And as far as having children for insurance? It's 2008 , my folks on the island know better than this.


They don't in many places I've been to in Rio and you know why? Because they're right. Inflation doesn't turn this sort of thing into a problem for the poorest of thr poor, because those people are not invested in the market economy in any meaningful way.

We all know where the movers and shakers of the world are leading us. Just check out your evening news.


Of course we do. But it's not by being less educated and less informed than those people are that we're going to save the world, are we?

Corinthians? Aren't they a SP football team?

"Man is born free but is everywhere in chains. And I'll be damned if I don't have a pretty good explanation for why this is so."
- Karl "Big Chuck" Marx.
Thaddeus
written by dnbaiacu, March 19, 2008
Your tone has changed. Thank you.
I can relate to you as to how spiritual things can appear whacko. Many people feel that way. Especially when individuals and some nations that claim Christian, Islamic ,Jewish, etc values act so contrary to what they claim to believe.
But in far too many cases sound Judaic/Christian values and principles have worked for people.
You wrote:
I'm aware of the "values" debate going on in Black America and I think it's mostly a shuck being produced to keep people from thinking.

It could also be said that if their lives were less chaotic because of having values and applying principles that have been shown to work.,maybe they'd have the mental energy "TO THINK." A lot of problems are self-inflicted. And these can be diminished with some values.
I assume you grew up around a lot of people that applied principles and values, many of which are found in the Bible , Koran, or Torah whether you recognized them as such or not.Otherwise you wouldn't be a professor. Least of all being able to write as well as you do and in at least two languages that I can see. If you grew up disadvantaged and had a bunch of other self-inflicted issues to deal with , there is no way you would be blogging. You probably wouldn't have a computer, let alone the time.
This is simply what I am talking about. Be raised in such a way that makes learning and thinking easier. A life of mere survival is not conducive to a "thought' nurturing existence. If you already have economics and a chaotic enviroment against you, the best you can do is keep your own personal life less complicated. ie apply some Judaic/Christian values. It won't kill anyone. And if you just can't stand the look of a Bible or anything with a "religious" twist, get a self-help book. It's the same thing , just with a different cover.
A lot a people are anti-religious. Cringe at the thought of any type of prosyletizing. And that's understandable given "religions" record. But that doesn't take anything away from the improvement one makes in life , relationships and self-love when they apply some values and principles. And yes, ones that can be found in the Bible, Koran, or Torah. Whether one finds these values "superior" , it can be left to their opinion. "I "never SAID they were superior.
It's a terrible thing to be poor. And in most cases that is not a choice. But it is a choice to lead an unproductive and wreckless life. Having children you can't even begin to think about giving a fair shot in life. Wasting valuable ,hard to come by resources. Disrespecting yourself and others. These issues are more related to values ,or lack thereof ,than a formal education.
What's great is that we don't have to wait on the State to learn lifes basics. In fact , if you do wait on the State, you will probably be waiting the rest of your life as a poor person. The State may be all too willing to keep you in the prison of ignorance. It serves a capitalist society well. It must maintain its' poor.
They say the U.S has been in the process of dumbing down its' population for awhile. Little comparitively speaking is spent on education than with other interests. Why is this?
This and lots of other issues makes you wonder if the shmuck of scripture is true or not. Humans look retarded when you look at the energy spent on destructive things like war and ruining the ecosystem in the name of profits.. It just doesn't make any sense. And yet we are so INTELLIGENT. What are the movers and shakers doing? If they are intelligent enough not to believe in shmuck . And they have all this wealth and power. Why is the world such a mess?
Could it be their VALUE SYSTEM?.....
Something to think about.
I agree with the Karl Marx quote. But for the most part it's a choice to stay in those chains.
As you have chosen . . .
written by Simpleton, March 19, 2008
I did not chose to be poor (I am not). I did not chose to be rich (I am not). I do choose to do random acts of kindness from time to time most specifically in regards to strangers, the down trodden, those beyond the reach of "rational" communication for whatever reason (or rather I am unable to refrain from doing so and those both close and dear to me have learned that they are also unable to prevent me from doing this, but yet are always amazed that I do in fact make a connection / have a positive effect on those that otherwise can't communicate or fit in with "normal" people).

Please please, define for me what VALUES it is that I should have been born with, or that should have been passed down to me through the education afforded me, or by way of family and or community. No one can do so, least not to my satisfaction. It is not my rational being that prevents me from struggling very very seriously just to pass the threshold of churches, synagogues, mosques. dn, if it helps you live with what it is you can not fathom, go ahead and continue with your irrational "intelegent design" and religeous bent - it works for you. Chains which are broken don't necessarily lead to freedom.
Boss
written by Luigi Vercotti, March 20, 2008
Way too much info to address here. few quick comments:

Costinha's "Ha" regarding America addressing racism. Buddy, compared to Brazil, there is NO racism in America. Forget the BS you get on TV.

ANother poster made good comments about Germany protecting Jews, and Japan being non-military. Both of thos are examples of AMERICAN EFFORTS AT PROTECTING OTHERS. The US implemented the laws in Germany protecting the Jews who survived, and the US dis-armed a hostile Japan, and then protected it from its hostile neighbors.

ON the issue of multi-culturalism, I think it is easily gone wrong. If the fairy princess in the story was white with blue eyes, she should stay that way. Santa wasn't black, and 200 years from now, Pele wasn't white. If anything, Costinha, America has gone overboard on making sure everyone is the same color, even though they're not.

Francis Wardle obviously has the multicultural agenda. And although I agree that racism and education in Brasil can be addressed in many ways, telling little kids that their race/heredity doesn't matter is not the solution. It only makes some people feel good.
Let some of the new oil revenues trickle down (Reagan was right) to the poor communities and these kids will have schools to help them figure things out on their own.

Simplton??????
written by dnbaiacu, March 20, 2008
Why does Intelligent Design and spirituality have to be irrational?
It is just funny how it all comes down to what you choose to believe.


Let some of the new oil revenues trickle down (Reagan was right) to the poor communities and these kids will have schools to help them figure things out on their own.


Really this is the best we can expect.

I do choose to do random acts of kindness from time to time most specifically in regards to strangers, the down trodden, those beyond the reach of "rational" communication for whatever reason (or rather I am unable to refrain from doing so and those both close and dear to me have learned that they are also unable to prevent me from doing this, but yet are always amazed that I do in fact make a connection / have a positive effect on those that otherwise can't communicate or fit in with "normal" people).


Simpleton, this a principle you can learn in a "church, mosque, or synagogue". In the Bible it is sometimes referred to as the "Golden Rule. You admit it has a "positive effect". How is this or where it is written in so many ways in certain books so irrational?
Not trying to convince you or anything. I can't do that. But this principle and a lot of other ones just consistently have "positive effects". They are worth considering. Investigating. Studying . Applying.
If some of these filthy rich people that have more money than they themselves know what to do with and did "random acts of kindness" on a regular basis as a lifestyle, the world would be a much better place.
But the reality is, this is never going to happen on a large scale.
It can just as easily be said that the "Big Bang Theory" is irrational. There is nothing "scientific" about energy in any form coming from NOWHERE. smilies/shocked.gif smilies/shocked.gif
What does it take to have "Ordem e Progresso"?
Industrious.... a principle that you have to VALUE
Cooperation....a principle , you have to VALUE
Discipline....a priniciple, you have to VALUE
Just these three words alone have a bunch of synonyms that just keeps the whole platform of Values and Principles going.
Simpleton I'm assuming you have a "wife" to go with the children you raised. It took at least those three qualities and A LOT more I am sure to maintain a family unit. Values and principles (mainly LOVE) at work. There are MANY that don't have that. Not even thinking about it. Which helps explain 70% of a certain communities families compromised of ONE parent only.
Maybe you guys are messing with my head , because I don't where this is misunderstood......??????
Simpleton you apparently have been following the DESIGN of the INTELLIGENCE that DESIGNED the VALUES and PRINCIPLES that allow you the education, time and leisure to be blogging.
Further I am almost CERTAIN someone down your family line made it a POINT to follow some CHRISTIAN Values to just put it out on blast. If you are American , it is almost a given. Inadvertedly or deliberately those VALUES were passed down. Wealth and wisdom is maintain because of VALUES you can written explicitly in the Bible.

I did not chose to be poor (I am not). I did not chose to be rich (I am not).


So you really must have been applying some VALUES and PRINCIPLES you can learn about in a church , mosque, or synagogue , to a greater degree. So (more than likely) you are lazy. And (more than likely) you are corrupt. (Please don't run away with that, smilies/smiley.gif I am just generalizing.Probably a SIN on this board)
I'm done
Big type o....
written by dnbaiacu, March 21, 2008
. So (more than likely) you are lazy. And (more than likely) you are corrupt


Sorry... (more than likely ) you ARE'NT lazy. And (more than likely ) you ARE'NT corrupt . smilies/smiley.gif
Por Favor! (Pppplllleeeeaaaasssseeee!!!!)
written by Edward, March 21, 2008
I am an American who lived and worked in a favela near Sao Paulo and I was blessed to work with youth-at-risk (mostly black) for a couple of years. I had to chuckle over Francis Wardle's article. Though well written and insightful she may consider writing about our American system of education especially when it comes to race - go down to South Central Los Angeles to get a taste. American students are as about as dumbed down as you can get and if you go to a school where it is heavily minority, less than 50% graduate (with about 8th grade level of education) and the system is set up to get them in and them get them out. Oh yeah, we use all the right political and race specific words with a smile and nod, but the bottom line is we don't give "umas bundas de ratos" for the most part of improving the lot of minorites especially blacks. All the multi-culturism education she talks about is all fluff - partly because the school districts are not going give the federal $$$ if this type of education is not included in the curriculum. Good try. Now write an article of what it is really like in the U.S. education system. Abracos!
DN and Luigi
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, March 21, 2008
I can relate to you as to how spiritual things can appear whacko.


I don't think the spiritual is whacko. I DO think that trying to claim that the spiritual is in fact rational and scientific is whacko. You have faith in intelligent design. That's a spiritual/philosophical position and not whacko. You believe that intelligent design has, in fact, been scientifically proven and a vast cabal composing 99% of the world's scientists are united in denying its obvious truth.

THAT is whacko.

I assume you grew up around a lot of people that applied principles and values, many of which are found in the Bible , Koran, or Torah whether you recognized them as such or not.Otherwise you wouldn't be a professor.


You're claiming only deists can be professors? In fact, most of the values of the people who were around me when I was growing up were hard-core secular.

Be raised in such a way that makes learning and thinking easier. A life of mere survival is not conducive to a "thought' nurturing existence. If you already have economics and a chaotic enviroment against you, the best you can do is keep your own personal life less complicated. ie apply some Judaic/Christian values.


Being tolerant to one's neighbors has never been a Judeo-Christian speciality, and plenty of other philosophies preach love, understanding and etc. So I'm kinda confused as to what "values" you seem to think are specifically judeo-christian and positive.

It's a terrible thing to be poor. And in most cases that is not a choice. But it is a choice to lead an unproductive and wreckless life. Having children you can't even begin to think about giving a fair shot in life. Wasting valuable ,hard to come by resources. Disrespecting yourself and others. These issues are more related to values ,or lack thereof ,than a formal education.


Sorry, no. They are related to a social and economic system which could care less about the poor, or about children and cares zilch about poor children. The U.S. is rich enough to solve most of the issues you're talking about. It chooses not to. It's hard for me to believe a poor person is "wasting hard to come by resources" by having a child when the rich drive around in SUVs, Dn. Sorry, I just don't see it.

A lot of what you say, to me, seems to be simply blaming the victim.

As for values, you talk about "discipline" and "love" and all sorts of abstract, feel-good words, but what is the content of these words you preach? Does "discipline" mean smacking the kid around every time he disobeys you (or even killing him, as the Old Testament preaches)? Or does it mean sticking with an unpleasant job until it's done? Or does it mean sitting still for an hour each morning, controlling your breathing and watching the sun come up? Those are all things I've heard "discipline" applied to over the years. You need to clearly define what you're taqlking about here, Dn, or you're just spewing rhetoric.

I won't even get started on "industrious". Slaves can be described as "industrious"...

But this is the whole point, DN: the CONTENT of those "principles and values" is not obvious from the words alone. I mean, they are really nice words, used by politicians to make people feel good. But what do they REALLY MEAN?


Luigi says...

Costinha's "Ha" regarding America addressing racism. Buddy, compared to Brazil, there is NO racism in America. Forget the BS you get on TV.


Oh, good. I was worried about what happened during Hurricane Katrina. I'm happy to learn that it was just one of those silly tricks created by the main broadcasting networks' smoke and mirrors. I'm also thrilled to hear that Death Row has been democratized in America's prisons. This is certainly good noews! [roll eyes...]

If anything, Costinha, America has gone overboard on making sure everyone is the same color, even though they're not.


I'm confused. If Santa's now sometimes black, according to you, then how is everyone the same color...?

And although I agree that racism and education in Brasil can be addressed in many ways, telling little kids that their race/heredity doesn't matter is not the solution.


Who's doing that, precisely? I can't think of anyone who does that.

Let some of the new oil revenues trickle down (Reagan was right)...


According to that noted band of radical communists, the World Bank, after 25 years of trickle-down economics, the gap between the world's poor and wealthy is much bigger than ever before. So when, exactly, is anything other than a smelly yellow fluid going to start trickling down, Luigi?

I'm a Libra for whatever that's worth
written by Simpleton, March 21, 2008
To my knowledge there's not been much for churchy type's in my family for at least two generations prior to my own. Spirituality being irrational - now dn, don't you dare go insulting / insinutating negatively towards me on that. It was one of the last things my mother's mother shared with me that she did have and I respect her all the more for it. Inteligent Design, that's an entirely different matter.

One wife, yes, more than a quarter century now, the kids are neither her's nor mine. Not bone of our bone nor blood of our blood.

With or without adjustments of the Big Type o .... you would still be correct dn. The corruption, to the extent that it exists, is, however, an entirely internal / eternal thing and a demon I hope to have the strength to keep that way till the end of days.

While you can "learn" about this and that "in a church , mosque, or synagogue , to a greater degree", you understand they aren't designed to do so entirely on the up and up. I find you can learn so much more from engaging in discourse with crazy people on the street. Maybe even more so with ones that don't share your native tongue - that tends to elminate the subterfuge created by institutional or other influences. It puts you into basically raw mano a mano / here is truly the thread that binds mode in order to procreate a trancendental truth in understanding - one person to another. Something that neither expounding upon this or that in reverberating, booming voice, whispering into an ear so no one else hears, singing alone or in choral (psalms if you insist), can come anywhere close to matching. Those things may make you FEEL but the knowing of one to another is what is both REAL and rare given the shells grown for our own protection.
dnbaiacu
written by João da Silva, March 21, 2008
You are a fast learner. I bet you know what I am talking about smilies/grin.gif
Thaddeus Blanchette...
written by dnbaiacu, March 21, 2008
Just what do you suggest????
You're claiming only deists can be professors?


You know I didn't mean that. What I meant is that the enviroment you were more than likely raised in comprised of people that had some of the Values and applied some of the principles I mentioned. Like in Simpletons case. I take it he adopted some kids. That's A LOT of compassion that he probably picked up from his maternal grandmother. Spirituality. I don't see the disconnect between that and Intelligent Design. And no, based on science alone and its method PROVING things Creation can't be proven. But neither can evolution. So you could say it ends up in beliefs. But then what explains prophecies??? I don't want to open up that can of worms.
Edwards brief article was on point
Oh yeah, we use all the right political and race specific words with a smile and nod, but the bottom line is we don't give "umas bundas de ratos" for the most part of improving the lot of minorites especially blacks


This is the plain truth! And why should they. Capitalism rules. Period! And the chosen peons must stay in the dark. This is even set up globally. The elite of developing nations (or nations they don't want developed) keep the masses ignorant,ie communism ie, most islamic countries.While them and their families "party'" all over the globe. It's the SYSTEM designed by the "movers and shakers" that call spirituality crap. But truth be told I think these movers and shakers know the true power behind values and principles and the true intent is to keep it hidden. In fact , this IS the case.
None of us are going to convince any of us anything. Everyone has their own views. But this is interesting , fun and stimulating to me to see some of these posts. We probably all can't believe the other thinks as he or she does. smilies/cheesy.gif.
My whole argument about values or spiritual principles (because YES judiasm and Christianity DOES NOT have a monopoly on the concepts)
So I'm kinda confused as to what "values" you seem to think are specifically judeo-christian and positive.

(you keep putting these little spins on what I say