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Brazil Leads Creation of South American NATO. US Counter Attacks PDF Print E-mail
Written by Jared Ritvo   
Wednesday, 28 May 2008 21:17

A Brazilian aircraft carrier Member states of the Union of South American Nations (UNASUR) signed a pact on Friday, May 23 in Brazilian capital Brasília to establish judicial and political components for the emerging, limited union. On the docket was a plan to create a military coordinating component of UNASUR, the Conselho Sul-Americano de Defesa (CSD).

However, the CSD was destined to be founded without the important exception of Colombia, which recently confused its neighbors by revoking its intention to join. Brazil, in collaboration with Venezuela, spearheaded the creation of the defense portion of the pact, which will be increasingly NATO-like in structure.

Successfully founding the CSD, which had been scheduled to include Colombia, would have represented an enormous victory for what has been called President Luis Inácio Lula da Silva's "pragmatic left" leadership.

It was no secret that Brasília hoped to use the CSD to strengthen regional ties across highly sensitive boundaries, with Colombia on the right, Venezuela on the left, and Brazil hoping to act as the mediating middle.

However, the withdrawal of Bogotá, with one of the region's most advanced militaries, has significantly weakened the pact from its onset. Brazilian defense minister, Nelson Jobim, described the basic tenets of the CSD as an integrated alliance without an operating field capability.

CSD forces would cooperate, for example, in contributing to UN and other humanitarian missions if necessary. The alliance will also be expected to coordinate military technology and resources.

Brazil's Vision

Considerable disparity exists in the distribution of military resources throughout the region. At the top, is Brazil with its major military capabilities, then supposedly closely followed by Colombia's highly modernized military, which enjoys major US support. In contrast, Guyana and several of the other smaller countries have meager forces.

Once the CSD is operational, the coordination of technology and resources will be joined by a greater emphasis on arms sales among the signatory states. Brazil, the major weapons producer in the region (which turns out tanks, ships, fighter planes, and light arms) is set to be the primary beneficiary from renewed shipment of weapons to its neighbors.

Brasília hopes that increasing arms sales to non-traditional markets around the world, and the coordination of technology resulting from this newly formed alliance, will in the long run lessen dependence on the United States. In recent months, Brazil's foreign policy has quietly shifted away from Washington towards autonomy, as it becomes an increasingly active player in a multipolar world.

In addition to acquiring new technology from Russia in various fields, Brasília has specifically attempted to obtain the technology needed to construct a nuclear submarine from Paris. However, France will only sell marginally-related, non-nuclear technology, and does so warily, to the frustration of Brazilian officials. Similarly, the restrictions on the sale of United States military hardware have angered officials.

The advent of the CSD and its anticipated increase in arms sales comes amidst the heated climate of a recently mounting arms race in South America; the continent's powerhouses Colombia, Chile, Brazil and Venezuela are all significantly increasing their arms spending. Of this group, Bogotá's spending constitutes the highest proportion of its GDP compared to the others.

The Attack Against the FARC

This arms race has recently taken on a new dimension. On March 1st, Colombia bombed a site just within Ecuador's territory in which a secret camp occupied by the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) had been laid out. The resulting flap eventually also implicated Venezuela.

Interpol's vouchsafing of the integrity of thousands of files, found on several FARC laptops that had been apprehended (but not necessarily their contents) makes the case that the Chávez government could have been somehow involved in supplying both finances and arms to the FARC.

The political radicalization of these three regional antagonists is manifested in the broadening nature of the Colombia face-off against Venezuela and Ecuador. All three countries were slated to join the CSD, but Bogotá's withdrawal shows the extent to which the existing rift among the countries has grown, and that the nature of the diplomatic price being paid is mounting.

If Colombia as well as Venezuela had joined the CSD, it would have symbolized an easing of tensions between the two increasingly ferocious foes. For this to happen, it would have required Brazil to have increased its commitment to playing the role of the area's pivotal mediator.

Brazil's Lula would seem to have been in a good position to broker such a deal, as he is seen as being a socialist and the leader of the leftist Partido dos Trabalhadores (PT) Workers' Party. But he also is a lame duck president and a man with profound leadership ambitions constrained by adverse local factors.

In both of Brazil's parliamentary houses he must appease conservative-dominated, multi-party bodies. Lula's administration is also, by necessity, bipartisan or multi-partisan, with ministers in Lula's cabinet (who are fueled by various political leanings) operating with a high degree of autonomy.

Again, this may help to provide a compass function to Brazil's role and gain credibility for it to be a pluralistic factor when it comes to the arbitration of regional disputes.

Lula's foreign policy stance has been based on the determination to maintain cordial relations with all parties, while trying to promote the country's emergence as a military and economic power. He seeks economic growth for the country through encouraging foreign investment in Brazil and its expansion as a major export platform.

But, Lula also reflects a profound strain in the country's ambition to maintain its admittedly meteoric emergence as a country that thinks in global terms and which is out to obtain a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council, yet at the same time not appear as projecting any threat to its neighbors.

The moving force behind the CSD in Lula's government has been defense minister Nestor Jobim, who has traveled the continent meeting with local leaders to promote CSD's maturation. Jobim is more conservative than Lula but has made known his desire to distance Brazil from dependence on the United States.

When questioned whether the CSD would allow a place for Washington, a seemingly flustered Jobim answered that the United States will not be asked to join the alliance as it is not located in South America. Brazil and other South American signatory members need not ask the White House's approval to form such an alliance.

Good for Stability

Simply put, regional stability is of transcendent importance for a country that borders all but two (Chile and Ecuador) of South America's other states. One goal of Brazil's foreign policy is to maintain stability along its borders, especially along its sparsely populated Amazonian boundaries.

Of these, the border with Colombia currently has been of greatest concern. In early May, the Brazilian armed forces announced plans to station 21,000 troops along the Colombian border to ensure that insurgents did not infiltrate the Brazilian Amazon. These forces will operate with the mandate to shoot all rebels entering the country.

Brasília is also interested in coordinating with other South American militaries to control the massive influx of drugs which are being trafficked into and through Brazil in increasing volume.

The country's federal police director for fighting organized crime, Roberto Troncon, has welcomed the inception of the CSD, saying that the coordination of the South American armed forces should indirectly help in the battle against organized crime, particularly in relation to drug trafficking.

However, the withdrawal of Colombia from the pact eliminates the cooperation of a major drug-fighting military in the most notorious drug producing country, in a hugely strategic part of the continent.

Last February, the UN declared that Brazil has become a major "thoroughfare" for cocaine trafficking. According to the UN's finding, cocaine is smuggled from drug producing countries (Bolivia, Peru and Colombia) into Brazil, where 15% of the world's cocaine is consumed.

Rates of domestic drug use in Brazil are high and climbing; cocaine usage alone increased 30% last year. Domestic use, however, only comprises half of the cocaine that reaches Brazil soil. The other half (of the estimated 80 tons of cocaine entering the country per year) is then shipped to Africa, largely to be redistributed throughout Europe.

Chávez Links CSD to Bolívar

Venezuela's President Hugo Chávez shows enthusiasm for the CSD. He applauds Brazil's efforts for a continental defense organization and has invoked the aspirations of Simón Bolívar - the historical figure for whom he named and dedicated his movement - saying it was Bolívar's wish to form a political, economic, and military union among all the nations of South America.

Chávez has said with enthusiasm that the alliance will help in the formation of a "big South America." To Chávez and the like-minded leaders, the CSD means greater autonomy for South America from the United States.

But an inconsistency may exist between Chávez championing a "big South America," while simultaneously continuing his attacks against the Uribe government. This ongoing assault (which one can appreciate given Uribe's persistence, negativity, and obstructionism) reflects Bogotá's refusal to seek membership in the organization and instead its turn to the United States for military aid and diplomatic ardency.

The cost is not cheap for this sort of politics; Colombia is being increasingly identified as a super-gringo country by its increasingly critical, Latin American neighbors.

Chávez's Vision Thins

Some would say that Chávez's vision of a "big South America" is illusory because Jobim and perhaps Lula are really seeking a specifically Brazilian caste to their country's efforts to seek independence from the United States. They would rather see this relative autonomy from the US on its own than be part of a broader geopolitical development that has implications for the entirety of South America.

It is not that Jobim and Lula (for that matter) would want to discourage other countries from seeking their autonomy from Washington individually, but that they look to the CSD more as a vehicle that helps Brazil in its goal to achieve self-development rather than focusing on how it helps South America as a whole to do the same.

Chávez, for his part, has a much more synoptic view of the arrangement. He invokes Bolívar in the CSD discussions in order to promote the idea of exporting the Bolivarian movement throughout the continent. Ideally, Chávez has said he hopes that the CSD will come to mean more than the transference of military logistics and intelligence between nations.

This is why he begins his Bolivarian invocation by stating that Bolívar sought the political and economic unification of "big South America" in addition to the region's military unification.

This dream of a greater Bolivarian South America is most likely one in which Venezuela, like a force of nature, would be pre-eminent - Brasília is not likely to subscribe to this leftist sloganizing with enthusiasm, feeling that the Venezuelans have not copywrited "Bolívar." Brazil also seeks some degree of autonomy from Spanish-speaking South America in order for it to better take advantage of opportunities elsewhere.

In dealing with Chávez and the CSD, Jobim has not responded with a Bolivarian invocation of his own. Brasília simply sought Chávez's signature and knew there would be a price to pay, in terms of a call to arms, for his Bolivarian exhortations.

Fourth Fleet, US Answer to CSD

Although US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, stated that Washington welcomes the creation of the CSD, the recent executive order re-founding the Fourth Fleet is likely to have been, at least in part, a response to the regional arms race and the outlining of the Brasília-led, new alliance.

It also serves as a political statement indicating that Washington is capable of projecting its authority throughout the hemisphere - particularly against left-leaning nations and leaders it sees as being recalcitrants to its cause including: Chávez, Morales of Bolivia, Correa of Ecuador and, of course, Raúl Castro of Cuba.

But the development of the Fourth Fleet was also likely to be seen by some Washington strategists as a counter to the Brazilian initiative. As recently as late April, the Bush administration has said that it considers Brazil a great ally.

Nonetheless, Washington's activation of the Fourth Fleet must be interpreted in Brasília as a partial response to Brazil's armament drive and its de facto influence over the region. It was most likely influenced by the advent of the CSD - representing one more step in the direction of regional autonomy, shucking Latin America's traditional tendency to automatically defer to Washington.

Colombia Bows to Washington and Slaps Brazil

The recent 180-degree turn in Colombia's policy highlights the depth of the Bush administration's financial tug on Bogotá and its ability to influence some parts of the region, particularly when it deals with like-minded conservative governments, like those of Colombia and Peru.

Unfortunately for Brazil, and its desire to secure its borders through cooperation with the Colombian military, Bogotá has concluded that it stands to gain more from military cooperation with the United States than it could collect from any other arrangements at this time.

At this point, there are few who believe that if Washington wants a replacement for Manta, Uribe, unlike Correa, will prove to be a flexible servitor.

It is more than likely that Bogotá will agree to facilitate a US military base in Colombia in order to continue to receive US assistance rather than join its neighbors in an act of regional solidarity that is not being particularly welcomed by the White House.

This analysis was prepared by COHA Research Associate Jared Ritvo. The Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA) - www.coha.org - is a think tank established in 1975 to discuss and promote inter-American relationship. Email: This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .

Comments (74)Add Comment
...
written by João da Silva, May 28, 2008
Successfully founding the CSD, which had been scheduled to include Colombia, would have represented an enormous victory for what has been called President Luis Inácio Lula da Silva's "pragmatic left" leadership.


According to what I read in the National Newspapers, the real reason for Colombia to balk out was that none of the "Hermanos" of CSD was willing to declare FARC as a terrorist group. Everyone wants to consider it as a bunch of "Santinhos".

Looks like Colombia Politicians
written by ..., May 29, 2008
have been bought the washington thugs... Too bad for the innocent Colombians.

Costa
France will only sell marginally-related, non-nuclear technology !!!!
written by ch.c., May 29, 2008
and in all brazilians medias, official interviews, Brazil said the opposite, namely France will sell Nuclear submarines technology.

Included in articles on this site.

And when I commented with my cynical statements, of course everyone told me how wrong I was !

Well....looks like I was correct....as usual !

The only submarine France technology is willing to sell to Brazil...is NON-nuclear ! If you prefer.....DIESEL powered !

smilies/grin.gif smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/grin.gif
Too bad for the innocent Colombians
written by ch.c., May 29, 2008
I could say.....they chose the wise way....not to belong to a group of idiots.

Too bad for Lula.

Just re-read part of the article :
- Nelson Jobim, described the basic tenets of the CSD as an integrated alliance without an operating field capability.
- CSD forces would cooperate, for example, in contributing to UN and other humanitarian missions if necessary.

In my view...it says it all !
More a fantasy than a military force.
COSTA
written by Forrest Allen Brown, May 30, 2008
do you beleive the FARC is a bunch of boy scouts ???

if so you need to see how many people they have killed in brazil that got in there way ,any one that thinks like you should not be allowed
to have sharp items

and as far as a working military who would be in charge of the retreat

and who would pay for equipment lost in use
Insomnia?
written by Ric, May 30, 2008
If so, this site has turned in to a great way to get bored and therefore sleepy , fast.
Florist A.S.S. Brown
written by ..., May 30, 2008
I don't make conversation with retards...

Costa
Brazil has a defense agreement with SA countries since 1821.
written by Ricardo Amaral, June 01, 2008
Joao da Silva maybe you know the answer to the following:

In 1821, under the leadership of Jose Bonifacio de Andrada e Silva Brazil established the original foreign policy for the Americas including the alliance of South American countries to defend the South American countries from European military aggression.

Keep in mind at that time the United States was not a threat to anyone and it was just a minor country that was taking its first steps as an independent country and Brazil was the center of the Portuguese Empire at that time.

You can read about it on the following articles at:


February 2005 – “Brazil, the Original Leader of the Americas – Part I”
http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/1360/49/

February 2005 – “Brazil, the Original Leader of the Americas – Part II”
http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/1425/49/


Now that the South American Union (SAU) and the possible creation of a NATO (in that case SATO) for defense purposes of South American countries are being discussed someone asked me a question about the original agreement made in 1821 regarding the mutual defense of South American countries by European powers.

Joao, maybe you know the answer to that one.

In the early 1980’s we had the Falklands War when Argentina took possession of the Falkland Island – a group of islands right off the coast of Argentina that Argentina had been disputing with England the ownership of those islands.

The British sent their army and navy and after a few months of war they defeated the Argentinean army and took over the Falkland Islands.

My question for you is: Why Brazil did not intervene and try to help Argentina in this case since under the old agreement Brazil was supposed to help Argentina in case of any type of European military aggression?

I know Brazil has good relations with the British, but why Brazil did nothing in the case of the Falklands War?

I don’t believe on this new SATO that they want to create for the countries of South America., and in my opinion Brazil should be able to build its own military and being able to defend itself without having to rely on the military help of any other country.

.
Here is more food for thought...
written by Ricardo Amaral, June 01, 2008
In my opinion Brazil should build its armed forces to be able to defend Brazil without help from other countries and the Brazilian arsenal for defense purposes only should include nuclear weapons.

If Brazilians don’t follow that path then they deserve to lose parts of their country including the entire Amazon region.

The world has been changing at the speed of light and the Brazilian territory is growing more valuable by the minute because of the scarcity of the food supply and all kinds of natural resources – but if Brazilians are so stupid that they can’t grasp what is going on then you know that some other country it will take a risk and it will try to take over such a potential wealth in resources – Fools usually are taken for a ride and the smart people take from them the fools anything that they can. That’s how the real world works and the rest is just a bunch of bulls**t.

You you are so foolish that you can’t understand that concept and what I am trying to say then let me enlighten you with a current example that has been going on since 2003.

The United States noticed that there was a country with a very weak army and a country with vast oil resources that was ripe for an occupation and for raiding its natural resources.

The US drummed up some Bulls**t excuse and moved forward to control the jackpot in Iraq. The rest is history.

Or Brazil becomes a country of the first world armed with nuclear weapons and a country that can defend itself from any foreign invasion or Brazil becomes the next patsy to a superior power.

Knowing the mentality of many of my compatriots today, I know that there is a better chance that Brazil it will become the newest patsies.

The Serbs still waiting for the Soviet Union to come and help them when the US destroyed their country a few years ago.

You are a fool if you think that you can rely on other people to come to rescue you when you are in need of such help – Argentina comes to mind during the Falkland Islands War – even its neighbor Chile helped the British effort when they did beat Argentina.

.
costa & RA
written by Forrest Allen Brown, June 01, 2008
if you pull your heads out of your butts and look past your colen you will see there is more to be had than war .

First AR if you dont like the way the US does business leave the country i would not live or take any thing from a country that i disliked as much as you do the US
it is easy to condem people while living a free life of there saftey you have not worked for or dont like .
i left booth brasil and the US as the governing bodies are just a bunch of high paid thiefes only lining there on pockets .

as far as the US invading countries for oil if that were so than why is oil from that sand pit the same price as brazil gets for its oil whitch is a much poorer grade . and why are they able to sell to any country . if the US took the country for its oil than why do the people still have there guns , the US has invested billions to rebuild the place , and is still doing so .
look what the govern of amazoina does he just kills off the indoes takes there land and inslaves the rest that are left to plant his soy beans , and getting richer than any one else.
as far as nukes for brasil well what type of delerive system will you use ? and then any one in the southern hemasphere you set one off there and you have killed off the land you are fighting over ??? as far as going toe to toe with a supper power .
never happen and brasil survive .as a hole country again .

to build a military force with so many countries that dont trust one another and there people in command have egoes the size of there military well that wont work out as they would never get along .and never be able to work togeather
Ricardo Amaral
written by João da Silva, June 01, 2008
Joao da Silva maybe you know the answer to the following:


Hi Ricardo,

That is a long post and with questions for many of which you yourself know the answers! Some historical facts are known by reading and some you know living through the history. I believe you are as surprised as I am with the speed with which UniSur and SATO are being implemented, especially without an ample debate in the society.

My question for you is: Why Brazil did not intervene and try to help Argentina in this case since under the old agreement Brazil was supposed to help Argentina in case of any type of European military aggression?

I know Brazil has good relations with the British, but why Brazil did nothing in the case of the Falklands War?


Surprisingly the press was more informative about it. Falklands war was in 1982 and the Brazilian military was busy planning to hand over the power to the civilians, while at the same time tackling the economic crises brought on by the oil price increase. On the contrary Gen.Galtieri of Argentina wanted to deviate the attention of the people, inventing a war which he thought would never take place.The Brazilian government did indeed attempt to prevent the war trying to put some sense into the heads of Galtieri and other Generals. Admirals, etc; in Buenos Aires that it should be resolved through diplomatic talks and it was not the right time to raise the issue of the Malvinas. But the Argentine General thought the Brasilians were a bunch of pansies lacking manhood. The rest is history. It is funny that a vast majority of Brazilians supported the stand of our government and diplomatic corp, including the ones against the military government.

In my opinion Brazil should build its armed forces to be able to defend Brazil without help from other countries and the Brazilian arsenal for defense purposes only should include nuclear weapons.

If Brazilians don’t follow that path then they deserve to lose parts of their country including the entire Amazon region.


Ricardo, under your previous article, I asked you a question: Who is our enemy? You were honest to say that you did not know.Lets be honest. Our military was and still is a self defense force, though the armaments we have are getting obsolete and we need to modernize them. Still nobody has clearly defined who is likely to invade us. IMHO, to speculate that the Americans are going to invade the Amazon to take over all our natural resources is very childish and of shortsighted vision and it does not do any justice to the founding fathers of Brazil like your ancestor Bonifacio.

Please go through the following link where a Canadian ex-pat blogger who lives here and goes by the name of "Gringo" and a Brazilian(I think he is a Brazilian) "DU48" have made some interesting comments:

http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/9353/1/

Besides, right now the Minister of Strategic planning Roberto Mangabeira Unger is currently in charge of developing the Amazon region and as you know, he is a professor of Law at Harvard and spent most of his adult life as an exile in U.S. Do you think that he does not know whether or not the Yanks are about to invade us? I doubt it.

There again we come back to the question: Who is about to invade us and why we are suddenly getting paranoiac?

In order to understand better, I am giving another piece of info. There was a seminar in April at the Military club, about the defense of the Amazon. The commanding General of the Amazonia highly criticized "Esquerda Escosesa" (meaning the lefties that sit on Copacabana beach and sipping 12 year old Scotch Whiskey) that has never been to the Amazon, but talking about the defense of the Amazonia and the "Indios". Though not many newspapers gave importance to this event, it did create a commotion among the ones in the government.Subsequently he was interviewed by TV BAND. An extremely interesting interview that unfortunately conducted late in the night. However, it is posted in the Youtube. If you want to hear a balanced opinion of another Brazilian, please go to Youtube and punch in the name of Augusto Heleno. There are about 4 or 5 clips. I think your Portuguese must still be good and you wont have difficulty in understanding him. Then please do come back and tell me who is our enemy!

To be honest, I would rather like to see Brazil maintaining our current friends and cultivating new friends and letting our "Hermanos" to chalk their own destinies!!
Well Put.
written by Ric, June 01, 2008
And in light of the above, how wise of Brazil to continue to resist pressure to ban cluster bombs, and not just in terms of protecting its export of materiel and thus trade balance.
the best war is the one never fought
written by Forrest Allen Brown, June 01, 2008
no blod ever shead ,

but when it is nesary make them quick to end

a total all out war has not ben done for over 2500 years and the world has got to get to the point where one can say

i am sorry and made a mistake and the people will live that .

not keep saying 500 years ago they invaded my country , so we want to war on them

brasil like the US is its own worst enemy , booth countries need to choose there
leaders more carfully
I don´t know
written by Ric, June 01, 2008
How you can imply that WWII was not total and all-out, with the bombing of Dresden, Big Boy, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and cost-plus war contracts. Look at D-day and tell me what would the difference have been between that and All-Out?

There used to be an auction yard in Artesia, CA where one could buy steamer trunks which had all the existing possessions of soldiers, sailors, or marines, for which no one had called or stepped up to claim. There were lots of them. Gone with the wind.
...
written by e harmony, June 01, 2008
Nuclear weapons in Brazil would deter a U.S. led attack on Brazil.

However, everything is not all gravy with owning nuclear IBCM's or tactical nuclear weapons (ones deployed from subs, ships, and planes). If Brazil acquired these strategic weapons one negative consequence would be the targeting of Brazil by other nations with their nuclear weapons.

Granted if the United States got hit with several - maybe dozens - of nuclear ICBM's Brazil would be effected by the resulting environmental effects. For more on that one can read Environmental Consequences of Nuclear War: Scope 28, Volume II, Ecological and Agricultural Effects. There are cold level limits that much of the tropical regions of Brazil would be extremely sensitive too, and "human beings are basically tropical species... and rapidly require protection for survival in low temperatures" to take a quote from Nuclear Winter: The Human Environmental Consequences of Nuclear War. (Harwell, 1984, p. 8smilies/cool.gif

South America is a region on earth where relations between nation neighbors are very stable. And the United States is very unlikely to attack Brazil when it has found itself exhausted with a 4th rate military in Iraq. (many members of its military, financially broke and humiliated, became part of the urban guerrilla combatants)

A book I got on the world's great military listed Brazil (the only one in Latin America). By its rating in the book Brazil's military would probably be considered 2nd rate. I was surprised to find that India's military was rated in the league with countries like the United States, France, and Britain - militaries we would call 1st rate.

I think Brazil rather than concentrating on obtaining nuclear weapons should just improve upon those amazing social programs they have like Bolsa Familia. Even the World Bank has been accolades to the Bolsa Familia Program. It's the largest of its kind perhaps in the world and if I remember correctly 20 nations around the world are looking to model the program - including New York City.

Bolsa Familia builds the future (especially in the impoverished Northeast of Brazil) by developing human capital and through required vaccinations and health checks it provides positive externalities. One small town of 13,000 people in the Northeast of Brazil was compared to Haiti in quality of life. So, Bolsa Familia is needed and this provides a better future and development for Brazil than nuclear ICBM's.
RIC
written by Forrest Allen Brown, June 02, 2008
go back a few thousand years and look at the wars then .
the armies killed every man woman and child , burned there fields , salted the earth put dead people down there wells , just made the land not worth having for years .

then you have the ones that came in killed or inslaved the men and boys and bread the women with there men , took away there native toung and destoried even the name of the peoples .

look to the church , russians , spanish , portugues , all took away the peoples religon , native lanuage , way of life , land , wealth and made it there own .

brazil would be better off with out nukes we all would , as our goverments have never matured enough to use them for any thing other than a big stick , make them harder to deal with when you have a bully with a big family , on a single kid in the school yard .
it comes back to the government of
BECAUSE WE SAY SO .not what is best for all but for me and mine.

time for another look at free will as our governments are taking away what god gave to us
E
written by Forrest Allen Brown, June 02, 2008
you watch to much FOX and CNN .

they are on the campain trail to put in place the one they want for prez.

they military is held back by congress from completing this war not unlike vietnam , they are all making tons of money off this prolong
fight , so are in no big hurry .
they say so but if they wanted to end this it would be over in two months , not much like nam 2 different times the US had the cong ready to give up but our press made the general public feel so sorry for them the out cry was stop so the war went on for years , not a few months .

the military has the people willing to stay the cores , but our goverment and news people have no balls for it .
you never see on TV News them interviewing the thousands wanting to complete the mission .
you never here of the good that is been done and is still being done even though people like hillry , obama , knnedy , say its a wrong war .
but look at the stock they own ! it is better for them to drag it out for years . as they dont have kids , or members of there famileys in the line of fire , fi they did it would be a different story.

did you see this on fox news a soldigre shot the koran so he was sent home ,
but did you know as a military person a christan one you may not carry the bible over there in your pack or have a cross , star of david , showing . any tatoos with god or the cross must be covered at all times .
we as a people as a world soicity should stand up and tell people this is my beleife and if you dont like it too bad if you want to fight over it than blowing up there reloiugs buildings and destoring they icons should be the first to go . schools that teach hate what type of belife could they have , what is in there minds eye teaching a child to hate because of color , religon , country .
I know we have them in the US and in brazil but would you not think .
this would make the news ,
Forrest
written by e harmony, June 02, 2008
I rarely watch Fox News or CNN. And I have no gotten my information from those sources. My info was actually obtained from reading a book written by, supposedly, the most respected military historian in Israel, on the changing face of combat.

In his estimation the British have done a superior strategic job in Northern Ireland compared to the American's strategy in Iraq. Be sure the American strategy has been more blunt force and trauma than the British strategy.

As that historian pointed out (he is friends with high ranking military officers across the world by the way) all of the United States high technology has been rendered by-in-large useless against an urban guerrilla enemy that blends into the local population. Satellites in outerspace can not differentiate these combatants from non-combatants. Americans have to hide behind heavy armored caravans when leaving heavily secured compounds. And as that historian points out this is the most demoralized troops since the Vietnam war.

American men generally make good fighting men as that historian noted. However, the *strategy* laid out by upper level officials doomed them to a loosing war (within the scope of the occupation that is). Compounding this the U.S. Government today and historically according to this author has never really given two damns about the mental health of it's citizen soldiers - that is in comparison to the Brits or Israelis who place a greater concern and emphasis on the mental fitness and stability of its troops.
...
written by .., June 02, 2008
that is in comparison to the Brits or Israelis who place a greater concern and emphasis on the mental fitness and stability of its troops.


I read that to preserve the mental and physical health of their soldiers, the Ozzies decided to pull out of Iraq.True or false?
no it was a campain promiss
written by Forrest Allen Brown, June 02, 2008
on some points he is right , but it took thousands of lives and some 1750 years to gain a some what peace in ireland if you know your history that war started with william wallace they only got serious after the IRA killed lord mountbatton on his boat , the the hole sale killing started , and the brits had to treat many of there military for mental stress , .
look at how the brits moved through irland , heavy armored cars .
look at israel to date still moving around in cars with armor and viedo carmas to look out .

the US tech is not without its good points , but with all the rules placed on the military by congress we cant win .
when you have people willing to die for a cause you have to help get there virgins.
even if you have to kill the ones in front guarding the ones with guns

i have been to all thies countries one thing when they fight it is to the death and they dont care what the news says about them shooting a book , child , women, holy man.

this one is for all the marbles and dont think it will stop with the US being defeted , the just like all the others it wll get to every one on the planet .

just like germany would have done if they would have won WWII
Forrest
written by João da Silva, June 03, 2008
Who do you think is going to be your next President? Obama is now the nominee from the Democratic party and McCain from the Repubs.

My bet is on McCain. What say you?
not my country any more
written by Forrest Allen Brown, June 03, 2008
i claim no home land as i dont belive in the governments ability to rule with justice for all .
that goes for all countries and rules of law are

made to protect the rich , famous , and those that made the laws.

i live by the laws of nature and the gun now

i hope they like what they have made , and can live with the fact people are leaving
the US in hole sale numbers never to return or pay taxes , as the
government has s**t on us all for to long
Brazil and the lack of Brain Power.
written by Ricardo Amaral, June 03, 2008
Since 1500 there were 3 invasions of foreign powers trying to get a piece of Brazil - There were 2 French invasions and one Dutch invasion - and all that happened when the total population of the world were less than 1.5 billion people.

Before you know the world will have over 8 billion people and it will be away overcrowded and the countries that have power will try to take over the unprotected patsies like Brazil.

The good news is that today Brazilians still have the mentality of being a colony of somebody else, and Brazilians will adapt very quickly to the new owners of Brazil - as long they throw a soccer tournament to keep the Brazilian masses happy.

You people are assuming that the United States is the country that might try to takeover Brazil in the future. The United States is in the same path as the British Empire and the Soviet Union - the US is an Empire in decline and in complete free fall.

Maybe a first world military country "starving North Korea" can takeover
a 4th world military country such as Brazil.

At the end of the day even Pakistan, North Korea, and India are countries that belong on the short list of elite countries of the world.
The countries armed with nuclear weapons - the ultimate symbol that your country belongs to the major league.

Today Brazil is not playing even in the Serie C and the reality is Brazil is in the league with countries such as Haiti and Grenada - even the warlords of Somalia would be too much of a military force for the Brazilian army today.

North Korea, India and Pakistan all have a ton of uneducated people, but they still have the technology and they are armed with nuclear weapons.

Since I wrote many articles over the years about building nuclear weapons - the most common argument that I heard of why Brazil it does not have the nuclear weapons it is because Brazilians don't have the brain power to build such technology. Otherwise the Brazilians would have done a long time ago.

When you don't have the brain power to develop such a sophisticated technology then you need to find excuses such as we can use the money to educate people, or who is going to attack Brazil anyway? Or we don't need nuclear weapons in South America, and so on....

These are excuses, and excuses for a people who does not have a single Nobel Prize winner and the brain power to develop the nuclear weapons.

Even starving North Korea a small country with almost no money managed to develop nuclear weapons.

Brazil does not have nuclear weapons because of lack of brain power and not because of lack of funds to do it.

There are 2 countries of the first world that can build nuclear weapons overnight if they want to - Germany and Japan. But poor Brazil does not have the know how and that is the reason Brazil is not armed with nukes.

The price to pay for Brazil to become a country of the first world it is develop nuclear weapons - until then Brazil belongs in the same league as Haiti, Somalia, Angola, Congo, Sudan, Paraguay, Bolivia, and Iraq.

.


































RE: Ricardo
written by e harmony, June 04, 2008
"Today Brazil is not playing even in the Serie C and the reality is Brazil is in the league with countries such as Haiti and Grenada - even the warlords of Somalia would be too much of a military force for the Brazilian army today."

And

"The price to pay for Brazil to become a country of the first world it is develop nuclear weapons - until then Brazil belongs in the same league as Haiti, Somalia, Angola, Congo, Sudan, Paraguay, Bolivia, and Iraq."


This is ridiculous. And it's a product of hysteria. Out of close to 200 or so nations on earth Brazil has a military that is in perhaps the top 20 on earth. Brazil has subs, aircraft carriers, and fighter jets and already has a military outfitted for light, rapid, deployments backed with light armored vehicles which is what the U.S. is further transitioning its military for.

Any nation without aircraft carriers is at a serious disadvantage against nations that own these floating cities that can bring war and hell to your front doorstep. There are only a handful of nations on earth that own aircraft carriers and Brazil is one of them.

joao you have this one
written by Forrest Allen Brown, June 04, 2008
SAO PAULO, Brazil - Officials in northeastern Brazil say they confiscated the equivalent of more than $170,000 and two pistols from an imprisoned drug trafficker whose jail cell was equipped with a plasma TV set, a refrigerator and gym equipment.

Jose Francisco Leite, head of the state of Bahia's Prison Affairs Department, said the "posh prison life" Genilson Lins da Silva led came to an abrupt end on Monday when police raided his cell as part of a statewide crackdown on drug trafficking.

Leite said Tuesday authorities have ordered an investigation to find out how Silva got the money and guns into his cell.

Big Deal.....
written by Ricardo Amaral, June 04, 2008
In the age of laser guided strategic ballistic missiles an Aircraft Carrier it is just a sitting duck waiting to be blown out into pieces.

Basically these giants of the seas from another age, today they have become obsolete for all practical purposes.

Here is some information about the armies of the world and this information it does not take in consideration the size of each countries economies, its population, the size of the country and so on…

If the enclosed list were updated today there is a country that has increased their military spending in the last few years and probably would displace Brazil from the list of the 20 largest armies in the world. That country is Japan.


*****


Here, according to the U.S. government, are the world's 20 largest armies, as of 1999, the year of the latest survey:

1.) China (PRC): 2.4 million
2.) USA: 1.5 million
3.) India: 1.3 million
4.) North Korea: 1 million
5.) Russia: 900,000
6.) Turkey: 789,000
7.) South Korea: 665,000
8.) Pakistan: 590,000
9.) Vietnam: 485,000
10.) Iran: 460,000
11.) Egypt: 430,000
12.) France: 421,000
13.) Iraq: 420,000 (pre war, of course)
14.) Italy: 391,000
15.) China (Taiwan): 370,000
16.) Burma: 345,000
17.) Ukraine: 340,000
18.) Germany: 331,000
19.) Syria: 310,000
20.) Brazil: 300,000


******


Until the 1980s, the flagship of the ocean-going navy was the aircraft carrier Minas Gerais (the ex-British H.M.S. Vengeance), which has been in service since 1945. Purchased from Britain in 1956, the Minas Gerais was reconstructed in the Netherlands in 1960 and refitted extensively in Brazil in the late 1970s, and again in 1993. In 1994 Mário César Flores, a former minister of navy, declared in an interview that the navy would be hard-pressed to defend the Minas Gerais in a conflict.

While the Minas Gerais was not considered likely to be replaced until the next century, it was nonetheless decommissioned in 2001 following the purchase of the French Aircraft Carrier Foch. The Foch, upon entering service with the Brazilian Navy, was renamed the São Paulo. It operates A-4KU. As of July 2002, the fate of the Minais Gerais was still unknown, with China having reportedly made a surprise bid for its purchase.

Note: Foch (R 99) was the second Clemenceau class aircraft carrier. She was the second warship named in honour of Marshal Ferdinand Foch, after a heavy cruiser commissioned in 1932, and scuttled in Toulon on November 27, 1942.

After a 37-year career in the French navy, on November 15, 2000, she was sold to the Brazilian Navy, and renamed Sao Paulo. As of 2007, she is still in service.

After the French got the realistic useful life of the Aircraft Carrier Foch then they found a sucker to buy it and change its name to Sao Paulo. The Sao Paulo has completed 45 years of service in 2008 and still manages to stay afloat.

.

Forrest
written by João da Silva, June 04, 2008
joao you have this one


Thanks for the info and let me assure you that Genilson Lins da Silva is not related to me!

btw, Carlos, the Jackal must be getting such privileges (and more) in his "maximum security" prison in France, including high speed Internet connection. After all Hugh is a big admirer of his smilies/cheesy.gif
...
written by e harmony, June 04, 2008
Ricardo,

Apparently the American use of aircraft carriers was a big deal to the Iraqis.

Aircraft carriers are obsolete to the extent that it is unlikely any major naval battle will occur again. But they still have a roll in defensive and offensive measures.

Measuring a nations military by the number of its fighting men does not tell everything about that nation's strategic and overall military capabilities. Take your list for example, it ranks pre-war Iraq in 13th place. But it would be wrong to consider the pre-war Iraqi military on par or better than the Brazilian military.



...
written by Zé, June 04, 2008
Measuring a nations military by the number of its fighting men does not tell everything about that nation's strategic and overall military capabilities. Take your list for example, it ranks pre-war Iraq in 13th place. But it would be wrong to consider the pre-war Iraqi military on par or better than the Brazilian military.


Were you trained in West Point or a self trained armchair military strategist?
AR
written by Forrest Allen Brown, June 04, 2008
if you think carriers are a setting duck than try to kill that duck.

it is harder than you think . the best place to sink one would be when it is at anchor or better yet tied to the dock , at least then most of its suport craft are standing down and you would have better than 50/50 chance
other than that you would have to shoot at least 15 anti ship missels from the same point to over whelm there defencefive wepons of all the ships invloved with its saftey , you would just have to just keep up with the fire ti you beat it down.

good luck
...
written by e harmony, June 04, 2008
Were you trained in West Point or a self trained armchair military strategist?


I don't know maybe you should ask the North Vietnamese that or the U.S. military officers that fought against them in Southeast Asia?

I'm not sure Ricardo has any more military experience than me (yes I've served in the U.S. military).

The Iraqi military when I went over in the First Gulf War didn't even have any f*ckin navy. (unless you want to call small boats that) The U.S. military had absolute domination over air and water. Stating that the Brazilian military force is equal to Somalian force or Iraqis is just wrong.

And I don't need to be from West Point to recognize the results of what is happening in Iraq with the U.S. military and the U.S. economy.

Given the landscape and built-up areas in Brazil - from the Amazon to Rio de Janeiro can you imagine what would happen to U.S. forces if they occupied Brazil, in light of what's happened to them in Iraq (with your West Point leadership)?

Before the U.S. ever invaded Iraq I read an essay by a Brazilian military officer detailing how Brazil could never defeat a first world force like that of the United States in conventional war. Therefore, Brazilian special forces would train locals in guerrilla warfare if Brazil was ever invaded by a power like the United States. And Brazil has some of the best jungle fighters in the world. The military police in Rio de Janiero are perhaps some of the best urban street fighters on earth. And Brazilian cities already have a heavily armed population - many of whom already live in environments of de facto urban guerrilla warfare. In other words you'd be walking into built-up territory (urban) with a weathered people who already have developed lines of covert communication. You would also be dealing with a very proud people about their nationality and patrimony.
Reply to eharmony
written by Ricardo Amaral, June 04, 2008
The US destroyed most of Saddam's army in the First Gulf War in 1992.

Look at the trouble that the Iraq insurgency has been giving the US since the US invaded Iraq in 2003. The Iraqis have been fighting the US with armaments vintage WW II.

Right now it seems to me that the US is desperate to start a war against Iran. If That happens just look how efficient the US Aircraft Carriers are going to be against the long range ballistic missiles of the Iranian army.

Let's see if the Iranians are capable of closing completely the Straight of Hormuz for a couple of months.

.
...
written by Zé, June 05, 2008
The military police in Rio de Janiero are perhaps some of the best urban street fighters on earth. And Brazilian cities already have a heavily armed population - many of whom already live in environments of de facto urban guerrilla warfare. In other words you'd be walking into built-up territory (urban) with a weathered people who already have developed lines of covert communication. You would also be dealing with a very proud people about their nationality and patrimony.


Besides, we can count on the Venezuelan Army lead by Col.Chavez and FARC to defend our flanks. The Yanks have no chance.
...
written by .., June 05, 2008
Besides, we can count on the Venezuelan Army lead by Col.Chavez and FARC to defend our flanks.


You forgot to include our other brothern "Montoneros" and "Sendero iluminoso" smilies/wink.gif
Forrest
written by João da Silva, June 05, 2008
if you think carriers are a setting duck than try to kill that duck.


I just got to read your comments. Out of curiosity, is it not the inverted cone theory? The Apex is at the carrier group and the defense encompasses a circle above? Enlighten me on this, please!
yes but all is lost at anchor and the dock
written by Forrest Allen Brown, June 05, 2008
ships at anchor loose 20% of there protection , and at the dock in stand down mode
well they have to rely on shore defences .

for instance take your sub at the dock in rio i have driven across the bridge and stoped
and looked down on it hatch open no guards on duty there .

i could have taken a 5 gallon water bottle full of gas and droped it down the hatch
and most any other ship could have been hit by low tech bombs out of a truck using
simple sling shots .
and with anger for the brasilian navy i though about it for a long while and still may do it next time i am down that way , watch the news !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

as far as the brasilian military all could be taken out very fast as most all are in port
or on the tarmac setting targets . take out the major equipment C&C say during carnival how long would it take to amass a fighting force to stop a air battle , and as far a sub launc cruise missels 125 of them could kill the ability for brasil tom talk to one another , then the bridges on the only hwy going north to south in brasil well that would stop most all movement then ele , fuel , TV & raido gone .
BUT WHY would the us want to take over a country with so many built in faults .
not in our wiledest dreams .as far a chaves his days are like cuba in fear for his life built on his hatetrid of his on ideas .

the US wont attic iran as it only poses a threat in there own minds also a little country over there can take care of them as that idiot jimmy carter told the arab world they only had 150 nukes . democrat & republicans should be drug out in the road and shot
but that is just me and about 130 million others in the states .

as far as closeing off the hormuz well after 30 days the world would start to run out of gas 60 days there would be a larger fight for fuel

dont think they could hold it closed for long
I don't understand
written by Pedro Souza, June 13, 2008
Why Americans are so envious of us!
PEDRO THINK AGAIN
written by Forrest Allen Brown, June 13, 2008
i dont see 2 million americans living illagle in brazil do you ??

where is the enve you talk about

booth countries have grovernments not worth what they are paid , and not worth the power it would take to blow them up.

land mass is about the same .

the deparments of injustices are different as the US enforces its laws on most but let the rich and powerful go free ,
brazil only goes after thoes that can pay them to let them go or some press grabing event .

the only thing i can see i like about brasil is i can kill someone and get away with it easer or not even worrie about it
The Independence of Brazil.
written by Ricardo Amaral, June 13, 2008
Today, June 13, 2008 is the date to commemorate the birth date of "The Greatest Man in Brazilian History - Jose Bonifacio de Andrada e Silva".

Jose Bonifacio born on June 13, 1763 and died on April 6, 1838.

My ancestor is the person responsible for uniting Brazil at the time of Brazilian independence, and he kept Brazil from splitting itself in 5 or 6 independent countries as the countries that made the Spanish Empire in South America.

The new generation of Andrada Family descendents will fight to keep Brazil independent as our ancestors did in the past.

You can bet on that.

.


The Andrada Dynasty is alive and well.
written by Ricardo Amaral, June 13, 2008
June 13, 2008

I just finished talking with my cousin Marina Andrada in Brazil.

She is the historian of the Andrada Family, and she has 8 published books to her credit about our family history. Tonight she is having a book-signing event in Barbacena, state of Minas Gerais and about 400 guests including many VIP’s and a large number of members of the current Andrada Dynasty in Brazil will be present at this event – the most influential people in Minas Gerais state will be attending this historic event.

Marina Andrada chose this special date for her latest book-signing event also to commemorate Jose Bonifacio de Andrada e Silva’s birthday, since Jose Bonifacio was born on June 13, 1763.

She told me that most of the Andrada Clan will be present at this event tonight, and that the new generation of Andrada’s are looking forward to hear her book presentation since they want to learn more about this particular book; a book that covers the history of this branch of the family and its impact on the history of the state of Minas Gerais.

Marina Andrada herself can be considered a family treasure – she is 90 years old and she has the memory of someone half her age – when you speak to her she is like a live encyclopedia since she remembers a ton of events in detail going back 100 years, with names, what happened and so on…

I had a long talk with my cousin Marina also about our family and what is in store for our family in the future.

I am sure she will have great success tonight, and Jose Bonifacio would be very proud of having among his descendents an outstanding person such as Marina Andrada.

.
Ricardo Amaral
written by João da Silva, June 13, 2008
I just finished talking with my cousin Marina Andrada in Brazil.


Ricardo, I missed your comments. I would like to wish Dª.Marina a long life and many more books to write. I don't know if she has written any book about the Revolutions of 1922 or 1964, but her memory should be good to describe those events.

It is a shame that our Government does not want to spend money on the maintenance of the statue of Bonifácio in NYC. I don't know if you remember Ambassador. Sergio Vieira de Melo who died in Baghdad in 2003. There is no mention of him in the local press a few weeks after he passed away. But the Canton of Geneva donated a piece of property to erect a bust for Sergio last year (if I recall correctly).

Shame on us for forgetting our benign heroes.

I hope Dª.Marina has a wonderful get together with the Bonifácio clan today.
Andrada Dynasty...........!!
written by Juan, June 13, 2008
Who cares.
...
written by .., June 13, 2008
Who cares.


Lots of people in this country care and you stay out of it,unless you are a great fan of Hugo Chavez.
Pedro Souza
written by .., June 13, 2008
I don't understand.Why Americans are so envious of us!


It is very easy to understand if you reflect the following points.

1.We are very good looking 2.We make excellent novelas 3.We are the most careful drivers in the world 4. We work hard to produce food and Ethanol to feed and fuel the world. 5. We discover an oil well every week 6.Our folks have more money in their pockets than never ever before in the history of our country.

Thank God we have a fantastic leader we elected and the Americans are very jealous of us because of our ability to choose good leaders.

In a nutshell: We are smart and they are not.

I hope I was of some help.
all our leaders need to be shot like dogs they suck
written by Forrest Allen Brown, June 13, 2008
more brazilians are killed on your roads than in the US and have only half the population .

your soap opras are so far out of touch with brasilians that well look at your choices
novelas , or secoung class song and dance men with 15 half dressed women to keep the men watching

but you dont feed your own people , and your fuel price is higher than that of the US

what good does it do to find oil if you cant get it , or wont pay to have it explored

yes with one of the lowest minium wage you have money in your pockets , but at what coast , the average person has to steal electricy , water , and burn wood or charcoal to cook , cant afford to feed there family so the get there box of food but only 15 million when you have 40 million that need them .

and your leader a want to be tail of the dog of chaves and castro

some of you have good looks but not you

Reply to Joao da Silva
written by Ricardo Amaral, June 14, 2008

You asked me if she wrote a book about the Revolutions of 1922 or 1964.

I believe that Marina Andrada is the only great-great-granddaughter of Jose Bonifacio de Andrada e Silva (The Patriarch) who still alive – she is 4th generation.

My grandmother’s grandfather Jose Bonifacio de Andrada e Silva (O Moco - 1827 to 1886) era irmao do avo de Marina Andrada – Antonio Carlos Ribeiro de Andrada (1836 to 1893).

All the politicians of the Andrada Family that have been monopolizing the political scene in the state of Minas Gerais for the last 150 years – they are all descendents of this particular grandfather of Marina Andrada.

Marina’s father had been vereador in Barbacena, then Dep**ado Federal representing Minas Gerais, and later he was Brazilian ambassador in various countries including the US and France.

Because her father was ambassador Marina had the opportunity to live in many countries and meet through her father a lot of important people over the years.

Her brother also was an important figure in Brazilian politics Jose Bonifacio Lafayette de Andrada (nickname Zezinho) (1904 – 1986) – He was Dep**ado Federal da UDN (1945) and president of the Camara dos Dep**ados (196smilies/cool.gif – he was reelected in 1970 and finaly gave up political life in 1979.

Today Bonifacio Jose Tamm de Andrada is serving his 7th term as Dep**ado Federal for the state of Minas Gerais and he is also the Reitor Unipac an important institution of higher learning in the State of Minas Gerais – this important university with 55,000 students has been created and managed by the efforts of the Andrada family.

Bonifacio Jose Tamm de Andrada was a son of Dep**ado Jose Bonifacio Lafayette de Andrada – and Bonifacio Jose Tamm de Andrada has 4 sons also involved in politics in the state of Minas Gerais. And the new generation of 20-year olds, in that branch of the family, is also taking their first steps towards their new career in politics.

Going back to your question: I have only the last 2 books that Marina Andrada had published and they are great since she documents a lot of things that happened to all these politicians with pictures and letters, and copy of many documents. She did a terrific job on her books.

Over the last 60 years she accumulated a lot of material related to the Andrada Family since friends and relatives, and other people when they found letters, documents, pictures, and had interesting stories to tell her about something related to the Andradas – all these people sent her all this material that became an important repository of Brazilian history.

Since Marina Andrada lived her entire life among politicians, ambassadors, and all kinds of important people not only in Brazil, but also in other countries around the world – I can hear her tell stories for hours.

Every time we talk on the telephone we end up talking for 2 or 3 hours – she has an amazing memory she tells me stories one after another about the politics in Brazil of the 1920’s, and 1930’s in detail and she remember the dates and all the people involved in the events – she talk about events in the early 1900’s as if the events had happened yesterday – I don’t know how she manage to recall the names of so many people and all the detail of the stories from a time long gone.

I am sure that she knows very well about the revolution of 1930 when regional leaderships in several states dissatisfied with the state of São Paulo's political dominance for the last 100 years joined together in opposition and they placed Getulio Vargas in power and she also must know in detail the story of Luiz Carlos Prestes and his failed 1922 tenente rebellion against the coffee oligarchs.

The great depression also helped to create the economic environment that gave the opportunity of someone such as Getulio Vargas to rise into power.

Getulio Vargas had the right ideas and during his tenure he did a lot of good things for Brazil. I would put Getulio Vargas on the category of benevolent dictators.

My family the Souza Queiroz and the Andradas had dominated political life in the state of Sao Paulo and in Brazil for over 100 years up to the early 1930’s - Only the Minas Gerais branch of the Andrada Family still going strong to this day in Brazilian politics.

You can see the Andrada Family tree on this website:

http://www.camara.gov.br/bonif...astia.html


The new generation of Andradas is very close to the current governor of the state of Minas Gerais – Aecio Neves – and they have been friends since they were kids.

Aecio Neves is the grandson of former president Tancredo Neves. In 1987, Neves was elected to the Federal Chamber of Deputies (House of Representatives) from his home state of Minas Gerais and served until 2002. He was president of the Chamber of Deputies (Speaker of the House) in 2001. He was elected governor of Minas Gerais in 2003.

Today, Aecio Neves is considered a strong potential candidate for the 2010 Brazilian Presidential Elections.
.
Ricardo Amaral
written by João da Silva, June 14, 2008
Hi Ricardo,

Thanks for your reply with full of rich details some of which I already knew and some new ones.I hope Dª. Marina had a wonderful family get together befitting a 90 year old matriarch.

Aecio Neves is the grandson of former president Tancredo Neves. In 1987, Neves was elected to the Federal Chamber of Deputies (House of Representatives) from his home state of Minas Gerais and served until 2002. He was president of the Chamber of Deputies (Speaker of the House) in 2001. He was elected governor of Minas Gerais in 2003.

Today, Aecio Neves is considered a strong potential candidate for the 2010 Brazilian Presidential Elections.


I remember this part of the history very well as well as aware of the fact that Aécio Neves is a potential candidate for 2010. However, Lula´s preferred candidate is Dilma who is also "Mineira" by birth, though she made her political career in RS. She also has the additional advantage of being a revolutionary who fought against the "dictatorship", besides being the "Mother" of PAC.

IMHO, the coming Municipal elections will define how things are going to work out in 2010. In general, I am quite disillusioned with all the political parties and the same old politicians.

Thanks once again for the informative comments.
...
written by .., June 14, 2008
some of you have good looks but not you


That was not exactly a compliment to me, Mr.Brown. But there again I belong to the minority smilies/sad.gif
Reply to Joao da Silva
written by Ricardo Amaral, June 14, 2008
In one of my conversations with Marina Andrada I asked her why one of the Andradas of her side of the family don't run for senator?

She told me that they are more interested in being elected as Dep**ados and at all levels of local state politics, because from their positions they can help improve as much as they can the cities on the state of Minas Gerais. They want to be able to help the local population that is why many members of the family are involved with Unipac and many Andradas teach at that university - they have 55,000 students and the university is creating new branches to reach as many people as they can in the state of Minas Gerais.

As a senator they would have to spend more time on national issues.

By the way, when Getulio Vargas became dictator in the early 1930's he asked my grandfather to resign from his position at Banco do Brasil - at that time my grandfather was one of the senior executives of that bank.
Getulio asked my grandfather to resign because my grandfather was a very good friend of Washington Luiz the Brazilian president who had just finished his term in office.

My grandfather had a large picture of Washington Luiz on the wall of his office at the bank - and after Getulio Vargas came into power the new administration asked my grandfather to take down Washington Luiz picture and replace it with one of Getulio Vargas picture. After my grandfather refused to do it after a number of times then Getulio asked him to resign from his position at the bank. At that time my grandfather was already thinking about retiring anyway after working for that bank for over 35 years.

At his retirement party the bank gave my grandfather this huge clock with a base in white marble - the clock weighted a ton and in the side of the marble there was a plate in 21 carats gold (in solid gold) with his name and thanking him for such number of years of excellent service for that bank. I don't know what happened to that huge clock over the years, but my father saved the 21 carat gold plate and he gave to me years ago, and I still have it.

.




people who write ugly are
written by Forrest Allen Brown, June 14, 2008
not on the out side but from within .
take ChC and costa what would you take them for if you met them on the street

and thise days what is a minority ??

some one who is what color ? not rich ? ugly ? some one unschooled ? not famous ?


americans envious ?
written by asp, June 15, 2008
well, not as many as you might think. most americans dont think that much about brazil. they have some stereotypes in thier heads, but, not the "jungle banana, buenos aires is the capital " cliches that many brazilians think the americans have. most americans are very ignorant of brazil and south america.
Forrest
written by João da Silva, June 15, 2008
A very good news Forrest. Read the following story (if you have not read it already in some English website!):

http://www.estadao.com.br/esta...9690,0.php

McCain is full of praise for Brazil. isn't it wonderful?

btw, was McCain a well known figure, while you were in Vietnam? His father was the Admiral of the 5th fleet, wasn't he, when his son was a POW? It would be interesting to hear your version of the story.
Ricardo Amaral
written by João da Silva, June 15, 2008
She told me that they are more interested in being elected as Dep**ados and at all levels of local state politics, because from their positions they can help improve as much as they can the cities on the state of Minas Gerais. They want to be able to help the local population that is why many members of the family are involved with Unipac and many Andradas teach at that university - they have 55,000 students and the university is creating new branches to reach as many people as they can in the state of Minas Gerais.


If one stops to think, the attitude of your family members (as well as the other traditional families) make sense. In the good old days, the politicians were interested in developing their home states and municipalities. One great admiration, I have is for the state of PR, for this reason. However, nowadays, elected offices have become more of job opportunities for un(or half)educated folks as well as to make money.Look at the salaries of our vereadores,dep**ados and senadores and the perqs that come along with their jobs. All voted by themselves.It is amazing to hear the amount of bulls**t from these guys.

By the way, when Getulio Vargas became dictator in the early 1930's he asked my grandfather to resign from his position at Banco do Brasil - at that time my grandfather was one of the senior executives of that bank.
Getulio asked my grandfather to resign because my grandfather was a very good friend of Washington Luiz the Brazilian president who had just finished his term in office.


It is pure witch hunt and these days, it has become more a norm than exception.When you used the word "Dictator" for Getulio, I could not help laughing, because you used the right term! btw, I get extremely wary about the leftist leaders who promote their image paying lip service to the poor!!

At his retirement party the bank gave my grandfather this huge clock with a base in white marble - the clock weighted a ton and in the side of the marble there was a plate in 21 carats gold (in solid gold) with his name and thanking him for such number of years of excellent service for that bank. I don't know what happened to that huge clock over the years, but my father saved the 21 carat gold plate and he gave to me years ago, and I still have it.


That is a nice story and I am glad that you still have the 21 k gold plate, without the clock. Preserve it. You must know Banco do Brasil is one of the oldest institutions in Brazil. I hope they don't privatize it.

Thank you for sharing with us on some of the nice contributions your family made to Brazil.

btw, an American Mathematician living in Rio wrote an article titled "BRAZILIAN JIHAD: SUICIDE ATTACK ON COPACABANA BEACH." narrating the 1922 revolution. I thought he had painstakingly researched the archives and wrote the article which was very interesting.Of course, it did not receive any comments except mine. Unfortunately, the Brazilian TV networks do not make any effort to educate the people about history. Sad, but true.

You have a great week and look forward to be in touch.
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written by João da Silva, June 15, 2008
most americans are very ignorant of brazil and south america.


Sadly true. That is the reason, we are requesting our fellow blogger Admiral.Brown to organize lectures in various universities in U.S. to talk about Brazil and S.America.That is subject to the condition that he is paid a hefty sum by our respective governments!