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Turn In Your Weapons in the Name of God! PDF Print E-mail
2005 - May 2005
Written by Juan Michel   
Monday, 02 May 2005 08:03

Disarmament Campaign in BrazilPeople going to Brazilian churches these days have the opportunity not only to free themselves of the weight of their sins but also of their weapons and the risks entailed in their possession.

In Brazil, civilians possess nearly 10 times the number of firearms as those held by state agencies. At the same time, the country tops world figures on the number of gun-related deaths each year.

It may therefore come as no surprise that Brazilian churches are actively participating in a government-sponsored disarmament campaign aimed at the civil population.

Since the end of last year, Brazilian churches have been mobilizing their local communities to open stands to receive weapons in parishes and other community centers. Weapons handed in are then turned over to the government's Voluntary Weapons Collection Campaign.

Inaugurated on 15 July 2004, the aim of the official campaign is to collect weapons without asking "difficult" questions about their origin.

Moreover, people turning in non registered firearms receive between 100 and 300 Reais (US$ 40-120) per weapon, depending on its type. The campaign was originally slated to conclude on 23 December 2004 and the aim was to collect 80,000 weapons.

However, in November last year, a request that it continue throughout 2005 was submitted by the country's National Council of Christian Churches (CONIC), which brings together the Roman Catholic Church, the Evangelical Church of Lutheran Confession, as well as the Catholic Syrian Orthodox, Episcopal Anglican, Christian Reformed, Methodist and United Presbyterian churches.

The request was presented to Vice President José Alencar Gomes da Silva during a meeting between him and the World Council of Churches general secretary, Rev. Dr Samuel Kobia, who was visiting the country at that time.

"The population needs time to be informed and to decide," said CONIC in its petition. It promised that if the campaign was extended, "hundreds" of churches across the nation could become involved.

Along with the ecumenical body, other civil society organizations also lobbied for more time. Six weeks after receiving CONIC's request, the government extended the campaign to 23 June 2005.

The churches are now determined to make good on their promise. CONIC is working to bring the number of stands collecting weapons in churches to nearly 300 across the nation. With that goal, a team of facilitators is currently holding training workshops in the country's main cities.

The reception points in churches operate on Saturdays in order to encourage people who are unable to come during the working week. Additionally, that kind of venue encourages those who are reluctant to approach a state agency to hand over their weapons.

"Many people are more confident approaching a church than a police station," says Lutheran pastor Ervino Schmidt, secretary general of CONIC. This is partly due to the image that the population has of the police and to the fact that nine out of every ten guns turned in are illegal.

Bishop Odilo Pedro Scherer, general secretary of the National (Catholic) Bishops' Conference of Brazil, estimates that the churches could collect over 100,000 weapons. The current official goal now stands at 400,000 weapons.

Caravans and Fasting Days: Anything Goes

According to the study "Brazil, the weapons and the victims" carried out by the Religious Studies Institute of Rio de Janeiro and the non-governmental organization Viva Rio, 15.5 million weapons in the country are in the hands of civilians.

The figure is equal to 10 times the number of weapons in the hands of state agents. Of those, 8.7 million are illegal: they are in the hands of criminals or have been sold on the informal market and are not registered.

The study also determined that more than 38,000 people died in Brazil in 2002 from gun-related injuries. The figure includes the victims of homicide, suicide and accidents, and according to the study places Brazil in first place with the highest number of deaths from this cause in the world. There were 30,242 gun-related deaths in the USA in 2002.

As well as churches, other organizations, like the Brazilian Bar Association, are participating in the campaign. Caravans for disarmament, television spots and advertising on public transport, flyers and street posters, free phone lines and even fasting days - anything goes when it comes to promoting the campaign.

Its promoters are working to extend it to outlying areas and to the interior. And to focus on youth. "We know of young people in the outlying areas who want to turn in their weapons but are afraid, so we must reach them," says Valéria Velasco, coordinator of the Victims of Violence Committee.

For some critics, the campaign disarms honest citizens and does not affect criminals.

"This is a major misconception regarding its objective," says sociologist Antônio Rangel, from Viva Rio.

The campaign seeks to "decrease the number of deaths from homicides among relatives, youth suicides and accidents". Accidents are responsible for one-third of all hospitalizations due to gun-related injuries.

By removing the weapons from circulation, the campaign also ends up affecting criminals. Nearly 30 percent of weapons captured by the police were stolen or bought from honest citizens.

A Spiritual Issue

"Whoever lets a weapon into their house has first let it enter their soul," says Fr Gabriele Cipriani. A Catholic priest and deputy secretary of CONIC, Cipriani synthesizes the particular contribution that Brazilian churches bring to the campaign: disarmament is a spiritual issue.

"Turning over a weapon near a church can also be a religious act," says Scherer. It is "a moment of interior liberation", an opportunity to "manifest to God our aim to renounce violence".

It is not just a question of reducing the number of weapons, but of building a culture of peace, says Schmidt. "Above all, we must disarm the spirits." A special prayer is available for the moment when the weapon is handed over.

In the short as well as in the long term, the objectives of the CONIC churches are ambitious.

For the short term, they are lobbying the government to extend the disarmament deadline to 23 December. In this way, they hope to increase significantly the impact of the campaign.

They are also stepping up their efforts before a plebiscite slated to take place on 2 October. Mandated by national law, the public should vote on the proposal to ban the civilian trade of firearms in the country.

With an energetic lobby in the National Congress and in the Justice Ministry, churches together with civil society organizations are trying to counter maneuvers that seek to avoid or postpone the plebiscite.

"Christian churches have adopted an active and committed position with civil society in the struggle against the weapons industry," says CONIC president and Bishop of the Methodist Church Adriel de Souza Maia.

For him, ecumenism needs to take on the major causes of humanity. That is why he sees a strong link between the theme of the upcoming WCC 9th assembly in Porto Alegre in February 2006 and the disarmament campaign that the same churches which invited the assembly to Brazil are now involved in.

"As we pray 'God, in your grace, transform the world', says de Souza Maia, "we are encouraged to work for concrete changes to overcome the paradigm of violence and death that small arms represent. The God-given gracious gift of life is the paradigm that leads us to action."

-----------

Praying for a Transformed World

The 9th assembly of the World Council of Churches (WCC) will be held in Porto Alegre, Brazil, from 14-23 February 2006. Its theme is a prayer: "God, in your grace, transform the world".

The first WCC assembly of the 21st century, it will gather up to 3,000 church leaders and ecumenical representatives from nearly every Christian tradition around the world. As such, it will be one of the broadest global gatherings of its kind.

WCC assemblies are often turning points in the life of the World Council, and this one is expected to leave its mark on ecumenical history.

Deliberations will focus on issues such as the future of the ecumenical movement, the churches' commitment to economic justice as well as their witness to overcoming violence, and the challenges faced in the midst of religious plurality.

In Porto Alegre, members of the ecumenical family will be able to gather around the assembly at a "mutirão," a Portuguese word that means coming together for a common purpose.

Made up of workshops, exhibitions and cultural celebrations, this part of the assembly program will offer opportunities for members of the wider ecumenical movement to gather, reflect and celebrate together.

This is the first WCC assembly to be held in Latin America, and it is being hosted by the National Council of Christian Churches in Brazil (CONIC) on behalf of churches throughout the region. Pre-assembly events for youth and for women will be held from 11-13 February.

Juan Michel, World Council of Churches' media relations officer, is a member of the Evangelical Church of the River Plate in Buenos Aires, Argentina.

National Council of Christian Churches in Brazil (CONIC) www.conic.org.br

National Bishops' Conference of Brazil (CNNB)
www.cnbb.org.br

Viva Rio
www.vivario.org.br

Desarme.org
www.desarme.org

Assembly website
www.wcc-assembly.info



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Comments (59)Add Comment
R$100 !
written by Guest, May 02, 2005
That sound like a good deal to unload your broken weapons!
Re: \"a religious act\"
written by Guest, May 02, 2005
Skillfully using a firearm to defend my family from a violent scumbag can be a very "religious act".
Gun violence against children
written by Guest, May 02, 2005
Here is an example of the "internals" of a "gun violence against children" statistic.

Anti-gun activists exaggerate the number of firearm-related deaths among children more than 500%, by counting deaths among persons under the age of 20 as deaths of "children." To these activists a 19-year-old gangster who is shot by police during a convenience store robbery is a "child."
...
written by Guest, May 02, 2005
Anti-gun activists exaggerate the number of firearm-related deaths among children more than 500%,

Well, it's still a death by firearm anyway. If we consider this 'adult death' will it change the fact that civilians carrying guns only causes more violence?

If you carry a gun you're either policeman or criminal, which one are you? Oh sorry, this is in my land only...
Brazil and Switzerland
written by Guest, May 02, 2005
"In Brazil, civilians possess nearly 10 times the number of firearms as those held by state agencies. At the same time, the country tops world figures on the number of gun-related deaths each year."

The author implies here that there is a correlation between high firearm ownership and gun-related deaths in a society.

But using this logic, wouldn't Swiss society be the one that experiences the most gun-related deaths per capita in the world? After all, since most Swiss families keep at home one or more of the Swiss equivalent of an AK-47 or M-16, together with its ammunition, shouldn't the Swiss population be floating in pools of blood?

The funny thing, however, is that Swiss society is one of the post peaceful in the world.

So what explains this difference where what is perhaps the most heavily armed society in the world, that of Switzerland, enjoys much more peace than the less heavily armed society of Brazil?

Clearly the difference must rest in the people, since it cannot rest on the fact of high firearm posession. The much higher gun-related deaths experienced in Brazil must be ascribed to ethical factors, not to inanimate objects. The canard of high firearm posession will no longer do in light of places like Switzerland.
...
written by Guest, May 02, 2005
Clearly the difference must rest in the people, since it cannot rest on the fact of high firearm posession. The much higher gun-related deaths experienced in Brazil must be ascribed to ethical factors, not to inanimate objects

If one can avoid death by elimitinating guns from the society instead of waiting for an improbable "change of mind", of cource, considering what you said as hipothesis, why not to take the arms away?

Your arguing does not support the "we must have guns" idea, it just tries undermine those who says otherwise. By that, we can conclude there's no sane reason to own a gun, that's just an excuse for killing things.
...
written by Guest, May 02, 2005
remember, guns don't kill people, people kill people.

bombs also don't kill people, people kill people.
...
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
Typical American NRA response
Re: NRA response
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
Typical American NRA response

AKA: Common Sense!
Full NRA response
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
...
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
I dont think Guns are the real problem but they certainly produce a lot of deaths and fear in the community. SO regardless of who kills who, it would be better that they couldn't deliver such a terminal end to situations.

After a not too distant massacre of individuals in Australia by a lone gunman...the government decided to remove the weapons of certain specifications from the population. It decided to buy back the weapons from the general public for quite a large figure. Then introduced laws that made buying a weapon very difficult.

I am not sure that an amnesty will make a big difference in Brasil with a huge rich/poor divide and the violent nature and desperation of those aiming to obtain things or defend themselves. (See the Documentary included with "City of God" with regard to Rio and the drugmarket)). However a buyback scenario could work with cash incentives and laws to ban the importation of any weapons. (sorry Colt - find another market!)

The similarity between Brasil and Switzerland are negligable, (perhaps besides places like Gramado in the south) , Switzerland is one of the richer and most developed societies in the world with high education adn liberal laws that foster responsibility in the community.
The longer term issue in Brasil is to educate all and foster " a fair go" mentality, oh! and remove corruption and......

AKA: Common Sense!
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
I would like to see you try to kill someone as easily with your bare hands, knife, Rock or whatever. The issue really is its a damn sight easier to do it from a distance with something generally deadly and accurate such as a gun. If i dont give you the solution your probably not going to use it.

p.s

I am sure that the rising number of Americans getting shot and blown up in Iraq would have prefered Iraqi citizens to be less armed. Or do you think that it would be better if all iraqi citizens carry Automatic weapons and a box of C4

NRA
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
The NRA is irrelevant in Brazil. It's a creature of the United States. So, really, who gives a flying f**k what the NRA gun nuts with their small penises have to say about anything going on in Brazil?

Remember: People don't kill people. PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE.
Law-abiding criminals?
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
Criminals by definition don't obey laws.

And if the solution to social problems lay in simly outlawing them, then nobody would take drugs and there wouldn't be this massive war on drugs.

But, again, criminals by definition don't obey laws.
Brazil suffer lack of education
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
All problems in Brazil is only one. Lack of education, lack of respect and also self respect.

• Pharmaceutical R&D Technology Post Diploma 2003 - 2004
Toronto Institute of Pharmaceutical Technology – Canada
• Industrial Pharmaceutical Technology Post Diploma 2001 - 2002
Faculty of Technology, Seneca College, Toronto
• Chemical Technology Diploma 1998 - 2001
Faculty of Technology, Seneca College, Toronto
• PhD.Sc. Biochemistry Program 1988 - 1993
Centre Polytechnique, Parana University, Brazil
• B.S. in Pharmacy 1983 - 1986
University of Santa Catarina, Brazil.
Brazil suffer lack of education
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
Sounds like you're a bit overeducated, but I agree..more education. You cant teach self respect nor a teach people to respect!
Pharmacology dude
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
He just cannot resist pasting his pharmacology credentials on every goddamn message he posts. Yawn…
Not clear
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
"Criminals by definition don't obey laws. And if the solution to social problems lay in simly outlawing them, then nobody would take drugs and there wouldn't be this massive war on drugs."

Are you saying societies shouldn't pass laws against things like use of harmful drugs, murder, rape, robbery, child abuse, spousal abuse, etc.? Clearly laws definng crimes go with other social programs necessary to orderly society and in furtherance of public policies. What kind of fool would think otherwise? Sorry if I'm being obtuse…but could you elaborate?
P.S.
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
Some would say that tex dollars would be better spent in educational and drug treatment programs than in the "war on drugs" and that the use of many drugs should be legalized, taced, and regulated. Outlawing activities are, of course, not the only way of addressing social problems, like drug addition, which creates a host of other social problems as a result of its criminalization.
...
written by Guest, May 03, 2005
taced => taxed
are => is
...
written by Guest, May 04, 2005
also,

atom bombs don't kill people; people kill people.
...
written by Guest, May 04, 2005
"Are you saying societies shouldn't pass laws against things like use of harmful drugs, murder, rape, robbery, child abuse, spousal abuse, etc.? Clearly laws definng crimes go with other social programs necessary to orderly society and in furtherance of public policies. What kind of fool would think otherwise? Sorry if I'm being obtuse…but could you elaborate?"
Demand the problem, not supply
written by Guest, May 04, 2005
"Are you saying societies shouldn't pass laws against things like use of harmful drugs, murder, rape, robbery, child abuse, spousal abuse, etc.? Clearly laws definng crimes go with other social programs necessary to orderly society and in furtherance of public policies. What kind of fool would think otherwise? Sorry if I'm being obtuse…but could you elaborate?"

The problem with the war on drugs is it's barking up the wrong tree by focusing on supply rather than demand. If there was not the demand, then there wouldn't be the supply. Why is it that in some communities drug abuse is rampant while in others it's rare? Is it because one community doesn't have access to drugs while the other does? Or is it because one community desires and needs the escapism that drugs offer more than the other? If this is the caes, then it leads us to the pertinent question of why one community needs such levels of escapism while the other doesn't.

I contrasted Switzerland with Brazil to make a point. The posession of firearms can't be the problem, because the Swiss are armed to the teeth and yet constitute one of the most peaceful and prosperous societies in the world. Clearly the problem Brazilians faces with firearms lies less with the firearms themselves than it does the character of its people. I really don't think, for example, the Swiss have a concept of "jeitinho" celebrated as a national characteristic, and neither do I think it normal in Switzerland for rampant promiscuity and marital infidelity to be considered a badge of honour by its men. And so on and so forth.

The unfortunate thing is that once all the guns are handed in, all those left with them will be the criminals and government. The problem with the criminals goes without saying, but it should be noted that governments in the last century murdered 100 million of their own people. That's quite a number more than any "traficante" has been responsible for. Needless to say, those people weren't in a position to fight back, as the government enjoyed an absolute monopoly on the use of firearms. People who shoot back are notoriously difficult to subjegate, which is why Hitler's generals counseled him to avoid doing so with the Swiss.

But if the Brazilians are so unwise as to continue in the course they seem to be taking, then they will further reap what their failings in character have so far sown.
...
written by Guest, May 04, 2005
hmmm.... very interesting thoughts...

i've never compared the drug supply/demand situation with gun ownership.

and true, nobody who plans to use their gun will give it up. but gettign rid of guns does prevent accidental and "moment of rage" deaths.

how many more deaths from guns are within the family than in defending the family?...
Utopian Right
written by Guest, May 04, 2005
"I really don't think, for example, the Swiss have a concept of 'jeitinho' celebrated as a national characteristic, and neither do I think it normal in Switzerland for rampant promiscuity and marital infidelity to be considered a badge of honour by its men."

Well if that's what you think is behind high crime rates in Brazil, i.e., moral/character defects in your view, then I think you are compeletely wrong. Anyone who tries to compare Switzerland with Brazil should be locked up in an insane assylum. The extreme disparity of income and poverty in Brazil are without a doubt at the root of crime. Anyone with one eye and half a brain can fathom that fact. How you can make the suppy/demand argument that you made and them come to such a rediculous conclusion requiring a quantum leap of logic is amazing. The only point you made in contrasting the two nations is that you are a fool.

You right wingers amaze me. You think that if you just could get poor people to live "good moral, Chrisitan lives," they'd quietly and obediently suffer the injustices of society. Stealing, drug trade, prostitution, gone! *Poof* And you call communists "utopian"! And what's worse, YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT! It's truely dumbfounding.

Brazil needs to deal with its social issues, at its heart is poverty and an outrageous disparity of wealth. While doing that, gun control is a reasonable policy to pursue.

That said, I also find your view of the Brazilian character is offensive. What cave did you just crawl out of? While you're using Hitler in your argument, your characterization of Brazilians is reminiscent of the kind of language that the Nazis used to condem those they oppressed and to support the claim to german moral superiority. You really disgust me with your ignrance and bigotry.

You don't understand "jeitinho," it's history, where it comes from. You are yet another holier than thou, moralistic, small minded fool with a silly form of logic that only makes sense if you don't think. In short, sir, you are a jackass and your opinions are not worth the hot air of which they are composed.
Not simple
written by Guest, May 04, 2005
"Legalized abortion appears to account for as much as 50 percent of the recent drop in crime [in the United States]." JOHN J. DONOHUE III and STEVEN D. LEVITT, The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime (2000) Stanford Law School, Public Law Working Paper No. 1; Stanford Law & Economics Olin Working Paper No. 204; UC Berkeley Law & Econ. Paper No. 200, Quarterly Journal of Economics. This conclusion has infuriated the left and the right, showing that reducing the issue of crime to "moral character" is really dumb.
Let em play
written by Guest, May 04, 2005
How many of the people who die each year in consequence of a weapons injury is a decent/educated person?

I would say a very tiny proportion.

So what is the point in stopping criminals killing criminals? let them kill themselves. let them kill clean the country.

The solution is to educate the people not to take their toy away from them.

It is like in Africa where the HIV is all over the continent, and if you say so they say "How dare you say that".

Let them destroy their own species, isn't that the evolutionary process?

L.S.Silva
Evolving - Balance
written by Guest, May 04, 2005
I perceive the fundamental problem with these arguments is that your still waiting for government or someone else to do something. The nature of our societies are simple...survival of the fittest. Combine this with our seven deadly sins and you have a catastrophe always a moment away. Forget the morals, the guns and the characters and ask yourself deep down what you would really do in a moment where you had to decide whether you got your gun and fired or...whether you realised that you didnt really need to do something in the first place...Action and Re-action, Cause and effect.

When you work that out on a society level, you will realise that its a clever thing to give a little than try to take all. The success of places like Switzerland and Sweden and others is to ensure mechanisms for supporting community rather than legislating control. Engender individual responsibility and you dont need to ban guns. These countries and their individuals have worked that out and enact it. Dont be fooled here...they still suffer from human falabilities but the overall effects are less.

Governments have a habit of believing that making new laws and applying controls on everything in life. This is evident in Britain and America where the majority look to enact law against the minority in the common belief that this will make their life better. The days where laws are introduced to support society are long gone and laws to control society have been substituted.
Brasil suffers from huge disparity between those who have and those who have not.As long as this goes on Brasil - the clever, caring country will be far away. Itshould be the responsibility of the government to educate the population to work out these ideas for themselves!


Moral failings equal social dysfunction
written by Guest, May 04, 2005
The reason I keep going on about morality and character is because these issues are the fundament of crime.

Let's look at the example of drugs and the sundry social problems associated with them. Immorality leads to the social dysfunction that necessitates the use of drugs. Drugs offer escapism, and the level of escapism sought by those seeking respite from their miserable lives will be proportionate to the level of dysfunction they experience. Thus, a prostitute, somebody who's obviously severely messed up, will typically need a higher level of escapism than a teenager who simply had a spat with his (de jure married) parents. If we follow a typical moral timeline from where the immorality begins to where the problems resulting from it manifest themselves over years, decades and generations, we can see character can have repurcurssions that last generations.

Thus, men in a society prefer to indulge their base appetites rather than restrain them for the discipline necessary to maintain the nuclear family. The family structure starts to crumble, and statistics today demonstrate that dysfunctional families are the source of higher crime, lower school performance, higher use of drugs, bastardry and many social maladies (See the African-American community in the States to see how family breakdown has resulted in the destruction of that race-defined community). In other words, such dysfunction creates a population that progressevely gets more and more messed up and so progressively needs stronger doses of escapism. And this growing demand fuels an obliging supply.

Society's horror at such drug use usually brings about laws that attempt to curb this use, mistakenly believing that supply rather than demand is the problem. Such laws only increase the costs of supply, making it riskier but also attracting people who are willing to risk jail in order to win the monetary compensation such high costs, and so higher prices, bring. These higher costs of supply are borne by the consumer, and so petty theft to feed the addiction of addicts increases, as well as violence in general associated with those who do not pay up and against rival suppliers when there is no legal system to arbitrate between suppliers.

Contrast the difference in the United States during prohibition and before or after prohibition. During prohibition, the costs of supply were drastically increased by making it illegal. Those willing to take the risk of supplying demand knew that the monetary compensation was much higher than when there was no prohibition and so many more suppliers to compete with and so a much smaller profit margin. And without law to govern this black market, suppliers took the law into their own hands regarding their market, metting out their own violence.

Ultimately, supply is determined by demand. If the demand is strong and government decides that by limiting supply it will dry up demand, the black market will simply cater to this demand. The higher costs of demand caused by its illegality increases the reward received by entrepreneurs willing to take the risk of jail or death as well as the cost borne by the end consumers, which, at the lower levels of the socio-economic strata, often creates petty theft necessary to finance costly addictions.

But the problem lies with demand. The more socially dsyfunctional a society, the higher the demand driven by the need to escape the misery created by such dysfunction is. The more supply is hindered by government, the more the costs -- and corresponding rewards -- of supply are increased and, ultimately, the increased price for the consumer desparate to escape momentarily from his miserable emotional predicament.

Such demand depends ultimately on the character of a people. A socially conservative people enjoying the valuable social capital of high character will invariable have less demand for such escapism that drugs offer than a morally decadent society full of social dysfunction and the resulting need by increasing portions of its society to escape, at least momentarily, from the emotional mess that is their lives.

Demand drives supply, not the other way around. Let's get our economics right.
Evolving - Balance
written by Guest, May 04, 2005
That's the nuttiest pseudo-sociology junk I've ever read. What the hell are you talking about? It's total gibberish.
Let em play
written by Guest, May 04, 2005
"How many of the people who die each year in consequence of a weapons injury is a decent/educated person? I would say a very tiny proportion."

First of all, what is a "decent/educated person"? You are an elitist ass. Secondly, you don't have any idea what the percentage is, so you are speculating based on your prejudices and ignorance. Third, how many so-called "decent/educated" people have to die before it is consequential to you?

"So what is the point in stopping criminals killing criminals? let them kill themselves. let them kill clean the country."

That is a truly stupid statement. You think only criminals are murdered? Pull your head out of your ass for a moment, okay?

"The solution is to educate the people not to take their toy away from them."

Hmm, that's halfway intelligent. Maybe you're not as dumb as you seem…

"It is like in Africa where the HIV is all over the continent, and if you say so they say 'How dare you say that'."

Okay, you've lost me. What the f**k are you talking about?

"Let them destroy their own species, isn't that the evolutionary process?"

Nope, you are truly and uneducated, indecent person. By your own logic you should have put a bullet in your own head by now. Perhaps I'm writing to a dead person. I fear not.

The species of which you refer is homo sapiens sapiens. If you are arguing for the extinction of all humanity, maybe you have something there, but my guess is that you just want "bad" people to kill themselves. Well, that's not going to happen.

"Evolutionary process." Okay, well another dumbass who doesn't have the slightest understanding of evolution. Don't try to use scientific terms you don't understand and which don't apply. You are neither a scientist nor a sociologist, so shut the f**k up.
...
written by Guest, May 04, 2005
"Such demand depends ultimately on the character of a people."

That is your fundamental a priori conclusion. It is the fundamental reason why your reasoning is fallacious. In addition, you have a particular view of what constitutes "good" and "bad" character, that is only informed by your puritanical beliefs. There are and have been peaceful societies that do not fit your notion of moral behavior or good character.

You are correct when you say demand is the key problem. But your pre-conceived moral bias leads you to a crazy conclusion that if only people had a particular morality there would no crime, etc. The fact that you can't see it's more complex is disturbing. Of course ethics (I prefer this term over morality) are important. But ethics alone will do nothing to solve the ills of society. The causes of "social dysfunction" to which you refer are many and inter-related. Boiling it all down to "morality and character" is sophistry.
What\'s the diff?
written by Guest, May 05, 2005
Ethics schmethics. Ethics and morality seem the same to me. Ethics concerns itself with the matter of right and wrong, good and bad -- you know, morality.

By the way, do you know that the SOCIALLY CONSERVATIVE population of Utah constitutes the best-educated, most law-abiding and one of the most well-off states in the United States?

Maybe it's just a coincidence, huh? After all, it's all just so, so "complex"...
Ah I see
written by Guest, May 05, 2005
I now understand why you see the world through such narrow blinders.

Ethics is the philosophy of morality. You don't study morality, but rather have a particular view that is rigidly pre-determined (perhaps by Mormonism?). Your statement "it's all the same to me" shows your lack of intellectual curiosity. You've made up your mind, you can't be confused by anything that might shake your closely held convictions. Nothing is complex to you. No thinking required. How nice.

The illogic of your thinking further demonstrates how demented your thinking is. I've heard people use similar logic to argue that all Muslims are likely to be terrorists. Apples are red, all red things are apples. Neat logic!

But, let's look at Utah, your shining example that proves your unified theory of what's wrong and right with the world, shall we?

Divorce, child abuse, and child homicide are nearly always higher in Utah than they are nationally. The US Census Bureau list Utah as higher than the national average for divorce—twice the divorce rate of, for example, Massachusetts. Likewise, violent crime such as murder and rape has been seemingly out of control in Utah.

Utah has one of the highest rates of rape in the nation -- higher than in California or New York. In the _Uniform Crime Reports; Crime in the United States; 1996_ under the column for Forcible rape Utah had 1,088 at a rate per 100,000 of 63.5 for 1996. New Mexico had 856 at a rate per 100,000 of 53.4. Nevada had 238 at a rate per 100,000 of 27.1. California had 10,244 at a rate per 100,000 of 32.1. New York had 4,174 at a rate per 100,000 of 23.

According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC) the leading cause of death in America is heart disease, with suicide ranking eleventh. Compare that with what the Utah Department of Health says. They report the leading cause of death for males between the ages of 15-44 as suicide. The Utah External Injury Data System says that from 1992 to 1999 there were 7,713 suicides alone. Eleven of those were between the ages of 0-9 years of age. The rate of suicide in Utah for females between the ages of 15-44 is four times the national average. With this being said, the CDC has been “unable to explain the regional variation of suicide”. About 20 percent of successful suicides have occurred in the 13-21 year old age bracket. The Utah Department of Health has declared it an “epidemic”. For the past four decades now, Utah has ranked in the top ten for numbers of suicides in the nation.

Between 1996-8 the Office of Vital Records and Statistics reported that suicide accounts for 27 percent of deaths in intentional and unintentional deaths in Utah. There were 3,399 deaths in this category. That means there were more than 917 suicides in that two to three year time frame.

According to the Utah Domestic Violence Council, they said that “in 2001, the national homicide rate among female victims murdered by males in single victim/single perpetrator incidents in the United States was 1.4 per 100,000. Utah’s rate was 23% higher than the national rate. In 2001, Utah ranked 16th in the United States in the rate of female victims murdered by males in single victim/single perpetrator incidents. During that year, 18 of these homicides occurred. This is 1.7 homicides per 100,000 population.” In addition to this they also stated that “domestic violence is one of the fastest growing and most serious violent crimes in Utah today.”

Divorces have been reported per 1,000: Utah 4.60; Mass. 2.40; NY 4.20; New Jersey 3.00

Wow, I see your point…and I'm afraid it's on the top of your head. Just a coincidence, huh?
Evolving - Balance - Reply to reply
written by Guest, May 05, 2005
Sorry its difficult to understand, its quite simple really. If you teach people to think for themselves i.e In other words educate them then they tend to work out betterways of doing things to make life easier.
I refer to Switzerland (which was refered earlier) and other countries (like Sweden) where this has worked very well.
A case in point!
A town in one of these countries had a traffic problem. Cars were driven too fast, people were aggressive for car parks, and incidents were high. After many years of investing in road traffic measures, signs, lights policemen, fences , the council worked out that the fundamental problem was not control of people and vehicles on the roads but allowing people to decide for themselves what the best method was. The council removed all the signs and traffic measures and let the drivers do what they wanted to do.Initially this concept was strange, Drivers were suddenly confronted by open spaces without any rights and controls. The result was that individuals drove very carefully and respectful of all around them.Fancy that!

Now assuming that your english is quite good..that you probably live in America you might understand this.But given that you dont live in one of these European countries somehow you still may not understand the principle.

So, put your thinking Hat on and think beyond the square for the first time in your life.
Evolving - Balance - Reply to reply
written by Guest, May 05, 2005
Interesting anecdote. Less confusing that your last effort, but equally unpersuasive.

So,you're saying that when it comes to guns, society should just let people "decide for themselves what the best method" is in the use of their firearms. The problem is that there are too many bothersome regulations (e.g., no discharging of firearms in cities, no firearms in schools, no firearms on planes, no concealed firearms, etc.) that keep people from "thinking for themselves." It is the excessive regulation of firearms that causes their aggressive (mis)use in acts of crime and in the heat of passion. Perhaps if people were taught to think better, they would decide for themselves that it would be better to transform guns (which are intended for one purpose, namely, killing) something less violent, like bongs maybe.

You know, you really are thinking outside the square there! While I don't have a problem with the concept in general, I'm afraid that, like our friend above who thinks the "morality" of "social conservatism" will solve all ills of society, you are being a bit simplistic by ignoring the multitude of influences that affect behavior, which might militate in favor of regulation in the particular case of gun ownership and use, rather than liberalization, shown to be so effective in the traffic example to which you cite.

Oh, but I'm just a simple, semi-literate American (or so you assume)…so please forgive me if I misunderstand.
Complex man
written by Guest, May 05, 2005
Okay, maybe you're right -- it's all just so complex.

Let's throw up our arms in the air, eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we may die. For life is too complex to imagine that any solutions can be offered. Too, too complex ...
Complex man II
written by Guest, May 05, 2005
By the way, your imagining that you can understand and explain away my position as simplistic is by definition too simplistic and therefore wrong. After all, to even imagine that as complex a viewpoint as my own can be understood, anylysed and be dismissed is itself evidence of a reductivist worldview that sees the world in black and white and naively imagines that viewpoints can be categorised as right or wrong, factual or incorrect. This peurility betrays a complete lack of logic in your approach, as to reason that I may be wrong is to subscribe to a rigid dogma that there can be right and wrong and that we are not in life actually a man made of water who's trying to use a ladder of water to climb out of a shoreless, bottomless ocean!

So, so complex, you know. And your imagining that you can dismiss my point of view is to simplistically ignore the insurmountable complexity of it all. This is too complex for the likes of simplistic buffoons such as you. Run along now. We've some insurmountably complex issues to try and surmount and frankly don't need your distraction.
Simpleton
written by Guest, May 06, 2005
"By the way, your imagining that you can understand and explain away my position as simplistic is by definition too simplistic and therefore wrong."

What high school are you in? Your style of argumentation is very sophomoric. I did I mention simplistic. That's right. I just calls it like I sees it, kid. What logical fallacy are you referring to? Among the numerous logical fallacies you have employed in your arguments; this one is the tu quoque or the "you too" fallacy. Very jejune.

"And your imagining that you can dismiss my point of view is to simplistically ignore the insurmountable complexity of it all."

And a megalomaniac, too, I see. Yes, to see the world as complex betrays just how simple I am, while your ability to see things so simply demonstrates your complexity. Black is white and white is black. Do enlighten us with your complex clarity. I was too blinded by the point on the top of your head to notice the all seeing eye of God there. My humblest apologies for distracting from your pontifications on morality. I will stop thinking in honor of you, my wise fool.
...
written by Guest, May 06, 2005
The play, Sir, is over. -Marquis de Lafayette 1781
Jose was much better ...
written by Guest, May 06, 2005
Oh, brother! Where's Jose? :-(
He was?
written by Guest, May 06, 2005
Who's Jose?
An elitist ass
written by Guest, May 06, 2005
Hey, Banana eating mind reader here are some stats for you, if you can't accept your own fate.

-----
SEX, AGE AND RACE
Of the 18 876 non natural deaths, 80% were male and 20% female. Blacks constituted 70% of all cases, Coloureds 16%, Whites 12% and Asians 2%. The majority of victims were young adults, with 37% of all cases aged 15 to 29, and 36% aged 30 to 44. Four percent of victims were younger than 5 years, another 4% were aged 5 to 14 years, 14% were aged 45 to 59 years and 6% were 60 years and older.

Following about gun violence victims:
- 88% are male, thus 22% are female
- 68% are Black, 18% are Coloured, 12% are White and 2% are Asian.
- For Asians, Blacks and Coloureds, over 90% of firearm deaths occur as a result of homicide

Guns Don't Kill Black People, Black People Do

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=1177
-----
I think 12% is acceptable to get read of the junk.

L.S.Silva
More than an elitist ass
written by Guest, May 06, 2005
"Banana eating mind reader"? Do you not like bananas? Penis envy?

Oh, wait, you're trying to be mean. You are attacking my ethnicity becuase I showed what an ignorant clown you are. But, I'm white (english/german descent), so you're a clown yet again! No surprise there. (I do love bananas though, so you got me there.)

Ah, I see now. "Decent/educated person" was code for "white." "Junk" is code for anything non-white.

So you are also a racist ass on top of being an uneducated, indecent person. I'm glad I can't read your mind, because it's a very dark, empty, and scary place. Your "stats" are a hodgepodge of meaningless percentages. They do not support your inane hypothesis. You need to study rudimentary math and statistics, which wouldn't do any good, since you are obviously complete idiot (I know, calling a racist an idiot is redundant, but he really has no idea of what an idiot he is).

Why, oh why, have you not yet put a bullet in your own head? Join your fellow 12r;s, the few, the proud, the white "junk." Follow your destiny…wait no longer.
Thanks
written by Guest, May 07, 2005
What kind of people try to teach a donkey to read Shakespeare?


You are an elitist ass
you don't have any idea what the percentage is
you are speculating based on your prejudices and ignorance.
Pull your head out of your ass for a moment
you are truly and uneducated, indecent person
well another dumbass who doesn't have the slightest understanding of evolution
you don't understand
You are neither a scientist nor a sociologist
You are attacking my ethnicity
so you're a clown
"Decent/educated person" was code for "white."
"Junk" is code for anything non-white.
you are also a racist ass
on top of being an uneducated
indecent person
I'm glad I can't read your mind, because it's a very dark, empty, and scary place
You need to study rudimentary math and statistics
you are obviously complete idiot

Why, oh why, have you not yet put a bullet in your own head? Join your fellow 12r;s, the few, the proud, the white "junk." Follow your destiny…wait no longer.

Couse I don't have a gun.
An elitist ass - Part 2
written by Guest, May 08, 2005
- Moronans Americanus a*****eas -

Pronunciation: Moronaaans Ameeeericanuuuuus Asssssholeaaaaaaas

Species: Blood thirsty mutated organisms.

Habitat: Polluted areas of North America, known to thrive under acid rain conditions and in its own excrement!

Food: Mainly peanut butter, hamburgers and french fries. These animals do not usually exercise any manners but instead, use raw hands to devour eatable substances. Abundance of lard reserves are quite common among these savages.

Adaptation: Namely rejected by all others beans on the planet. However, they are expanding their territory thru intimidation and killings, during the latter portion of the 20th century and beginning of the 21st century.

Behavior: Cowardly when singled out but vicious when in packs. Not yet known but inferred that metamorphosis occur at the DNA level of these creatures due to prolonged exposure to radioactive materials, set up by their own armies.

Caution: Stay way, these mammals are known to have huge mouths and very narrow minds, with an average IQ comparable to those of chimpanzees. In fact, these animals recently brought to power a specimen that parallels any ape, better known as George Bush.

Short-Coming: Unilingual, lacking any understanding of civilization and order, and driven by pure greed.
An elitist ass - Part 2
written by Guest, May 08, 2005
Is the person who wrote the "An elitist ass - Part 2 post the same person who wrote the "An elitist ass" post containing the "Banana eating mind reader" comment? Strange.
NICO FROM LOS ANGELES
written by Guest, May 13, 2005
I do understand peoples fears about guns , but as a person lived in both los angeles and uberlandia brasil i strongly stay behind the idea of keeping a gun or some kind of weapon to protect your self and your family in the event of any robbery or burglery or againts any sick bastard to come in your house and cause a harm to your family.
i believe you have the right to protect your wife and kids and your property againts anyone . specially if that anyone in you property without you permission and if that anyone have a gun i realy like to have a weapon againts him too. soo we can not tell our hard working citizens to turn there guns in and sit at home with in fear not knowing whats going to happen when a stuation occurs.soo keep your guns where it belongs ! in your home love to you all .
My name is Deborah
written by Guest, May 14, 2005
I didn't say something that others have I guess. You cant forget that the european men made the native, and those african people their slaves. Now, our population is a mixture of all these races, from Europe to Africa, Asia to Brazil. All one, so... no mattering, there's still some racism. Yet, not so much as U.S. Still we are a people that suffer many things, lack of education, health and money. But we sing anyway, we have good mood to go over it... we work alot... and we AINT ashamed to say it. The government isnt the only ROBBER of the whole history, this has been a result of the past centuries. Our gold, metal, precious rocks was stolen from us... and we even had to take them and give to the white men, now.... i love all kinds of men, but I know that many people still think as I do. White folks here get along with mix, black, native, but the black population is big and we even have our magazine. Not so different then U.S. which I think is a right and a way to express our feelings in all ways there are. I have friends of many colors, love them alot. But please dont put all the blame on today, cause its all been a result of the problems of yesterday. Ps : in case you dont believe president Lula dont get along with Bush you're so wrong ! They like each other, and many things that comes from U.S here, make good process, even people go there to live. U.S has an amount of 3 million brazilian people living there now. Not ashamed to say, you like our work. We do things that not EVERYBODY would. And we still fightin... but... we never let our own roots pass away, we still love our country, our food, our music, and our "jeitinho de ser " - way of being.
Come to Brazil to visit, I mean a nice beach you know.... and you will forget there is violence on Rio and Sao Paulo. Not everywhere is perfect, not even US. Just try living life the way it is and relax.
Love your life, treasure each day as the last and stop trying to explain why some countries are the way it is when after all, its not so bad as it seems. Come and see.
See ya
A point to ponder
written by Guest, May 15, 2005
Has anyone ever considered that there are just too many people. There are more people than jobs available,and as technology advances,less people will be employed.Not just in Brazil,but all around the world.Until the every growing world population is checked and reduced considerably,crime,drug use,and all other "evils of society"will continue to rise.All of the fuzzywarm,feely good programs fostered by churches and governments are doing nothing to get to the root of the problem,and in fact are probably adding to it.Looking at it from an anylitical standpoint,you continue to feed people with no means of sustaining them selves,they breed and add to the ever growing numbers,dependant on the remainder of society that can still eek out a living and pay ever increasing taxes.Those that can't or won't find a job or are unable to get on some sort of dole will take whatever means available to survive,which usually means some sort of criminal activity.Just something to think about.
Point to ponder
written by Guest, May 15, 2005
"Looking at it from an anylitical standpoint"…THAT would be a good idea! To bad you're too dumb to do so.

Good Lord, we've got another one. First we got the person who thinks ("logically," of course) the "root of the problem" is "character," and now someone who thinks the "root of the problem" is that "there are just too many people." Forget the "fussywarm, feely good programs" that just "continue to feed people" and "add to the problem." Forget too that the problem addressed in the article is getting Brazilians to give up their guns, not a "fuzzywarm, feely good" food program. But, hey, you've got your narrow point of view, don't let the subject get you off point.

Amazing. You have presented yet another sophomoric and uninformed view that is un-analyitic and unworthy of any serious consideration, except to "ponder" how it rivals that of the moralist above. Congratulations. I think you and Mr. Morals should battle it out for who wins the Simpleton of the Year prize. Where do you people come from? Seriously…What land? Is there something in the drinking water that makes you so stupid?

Try studying some economics and sociology (instead of your ant farm), then think long and hard before you write or speak another word. If those subjects are beyond your grasp, ponder the point on the top of your head or ponder your bellybutton for the "root of the problem."
Ponder
written by Guest, May 15, 2005
While the aspiritions of the church to rid the steets of firearms are laudible,I'm sure that the returned armaments are for the most part obsolete or useless,same as they are in the US when they have a gun turn in. Old muskets,rusted pistols,a buffalo rifle or two are usually the creme of the crop.I'm afraid I will have to agree with what the previous poster said about too many people. There just aren't enough jobs that will pay a living wage for all the people that want or need one,both in Brazil and the rest of the world. The end result is crime,of one sort or another,even to steal enough to feed a family,which is what the churches are trying to reduce by their gun turn ins.
Ponderous
written by Guest, May 16, 2005
"I'm sure"…

that you don't know what you're talking about and that you are a simpleton.
Too many people
written by Guest, May 16, 2005
Then do your part, and do us all a favor, and kill yourself.
Too many people?
written by Guest, May 18, 2005
Man, do y'all need to read Thomas Sowell's "Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy" or what?

And, yes, character matters. Otherwise why do the heavily armed Swiss experience far, far less violence than the less-heavily armed Brazilians? And, no, it's not because Switzerland is "less populated" (as if Brazil suffers from "overpopulation" anyway). Otherwise "overpopulated" places like Japan and Hong Kong would be the ones experiencing the most violence, which is clearly not the case in those places.

According to my worldview, whether you accept or recognise that character/ethics is the real issue depends on whether you'll have the scales lifted from your eyes. According to your worldview, the way things are can only be justified and explained by virtue of your ... what? Your condescending, overweening self-regard? Sorry, you're gonna actually have to justify your position rather than throw names around hoping to browbeat your opponent. Reason and logic will have to do sometime. Just try it for a change.
order and progres??
written by Guest, May 18, 2005
my daughter is 1 year and 6 months. she found a gun in her grandmothers room, left there by her late husband. we took it to the police and got 100 real for it.

could have been worse
Too many people?
written by Guest, May 28, 2005
Ethics matter very much, but with a lot of other things that you really can't seem to comprehend. You are obviously one of these people who has one hot-button issue. You don't understand or see anything else. With you, all the problems of the world are about "character." Define "character" for us, will you? What makes up good character? What makes up bad character? Where does one go to learn good and unlearn bad character? Do economic influences come into it at all? What about the character of the politics and economy of a nation? Do they matter?

Talk about an over-inflated sense of self-regard! You have all the answers, don't you? In reality, you haven't the slightest clue.

And, by the way, I have a degree in economics. The day I read some dumbed-down version of economics by a right-wing hack like Thomas Sowell is the day I should be sent to the rest home. The fact that you found the book to be somehow enlightening confirms my opinion that you have a simple mind and seek overly simple answsers to life's complex questions. Yes, if you want an introduction to simple minded conservative economic ideology, then by all means, read the book. If you have any intellectual capacity beyond that of a high school freshman, there are many other places to begin your journey into understanding economics.
Too many people? 2
written by Guest, May 28, 2005
"According to my worldview, whether you accept or recognise that character/ethics is the real issue depends on whether you'll have the scales lifted from your eyes." Gee, thanks for explaining. That was totally incomprehensible. We still only know that you are a one trick pony.

First of all, I don't try to "justify" things in my world view. Secondly, in trying to explain the world, you may be surprised to learn that there are a lot of talented people studying a host of disciplines trying to do just that, and I consider them all. Philosopers, including ethicists, are among them. But let's not forget political scientists, economists, historians, theologans, psychologists, developmental behavioralists, doctors, physicists, chemists, biochemists, geneticists, linguists, … need I go on? So, my world view is interdisciplinary. It is informed by the best and the brightest among us. It is an intellectual world view, informed by intellectual curiosity. That means having an open and critical mind. One that would never settle for the cheap, ideologic, and simplisitc view that everything comes down to "character" or the economics for conservative dummies of Thomas Sowell's _Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy_.

Yes, you and I are very different. I am very thankful for that too.
ipod nano
written by Guest, April 05, 2006
Hehe! Good work! -ipod nano skin
ipod nano

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