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The Presence of Brazil's Black in Sociologist Cardoso's Work PDF Print E-mail
2005 - May 2005
Written by Richard F. Kane   
Saturday, 28 May 2005 16:44

Slavery in BrazilDependency and Development in Latin America, the book many consider to be Fernando Henrique Cardoso's most important academic legacy, was first circulated in mimeographed form in 1967. 

It was then published in Spanish two years later as Dependencia y Desarrollo en America Latina (1969), and is as much a reflection on the times it was written as it is the quintessential statement on dependency theory.

The 1979 English revision came after it had been published repeatedly in Spanish, Italian, German, and French. 

"Só é possível entender o que eu disse sobre dependência se você remontar a análise da escravidão, o que ninguém faz. Pouca gente lê."(2)

Here, Cardoso states that it is only possible to understand what he said about dependency by resurrecting his analysis of slavery, which few people ever do or care to read. 

Co-authored with Enzo Faletto, Dependency and Development in Latin America is listed 41st on the International Sociological Association's ranking of the 100 most important books of the 20th century; yet is clearly out of date considering the political and technological changes that have taken place over the past 25 years.(3) 

The end of the Cold War, technological advance, globalization, terrorism and security have profoundly altered the course Latin American development has taken since Dependency and Development in Latin America was written. 

Still, the historical roots of Latin American economic development remain, and in the case of Brazil these roots are inexorably linked to slavery.

Destroying the Myth of the Brazilian Melting Pot

Cardoso states that for him it was the Negro question which connected empirical studies to national issues.(1) 

As Cardoso recalls, Florestan Fernandes and Roger Bastide sought to demonstrate that UNESCO was wrong in its assumption that Brazil was a melting pot society without racial problems, and that the Negro was not, in fact, equal in Brazil. 

As a student, Cardoso studied some aspects of this problem jointly with an anthropology student who later became his wife. Together, with Bastide and Florestan, they interviewed Negroes at the University and visited them in the favelas of São Paulo, where what Cardoso saw of poverty and prejudice had a radicalizing effect on him.(1) 

This effect is easily understandable if one considers that the social distance between the poverty-stricken world that exists upon crossing the threshold into a Brazilian favela and the middle and upper class worlds they surround is more extreme than most North Americans could ever begin to imagine. 

According to Cardoso, Florestan emphasized the historical perspective, so they read old newspapers and anything Negros had written about former times. They took many notes, developed systematic files, and tried to be very empirical in their approach.(1) 

The Roots of Cardoso's Methodology 

Cardoso, however, soon began to refocus his perspective on the Negro from interpersonal relations to the historical-structural framework particular to the Negro's position in Brazilian society.

For this reason, Brazil's colonial and imperial past had to be considered because it is the context in which slavery and abolition took place. 

Cardoso describes the economic system in colonial Brazil as a plantation system based on slavery, but integrated into the expansion of mercantile capitalism, within a competitive international framework.(2) 


In Capitalismo e Escravidão no Brasil Meridional, Cardoso (1962) emphasizes that slavery and abolition in Brazil need to be understood in reference to the broader expansion of global capitalism.(5) 

Portuguese Navigation

With regard to the beginnings of this expansion for Brazil, Portuguese explorer Pedro Alvarez Cabral was in search of a trade route to India when he accidentally landed on Brazil's coast in the year 1500. 

Cabral's landing in Porto Seguro marked the beginning of the Portuguese colonization of Brazil and enslavement of its indigenous populations. 

The enslavement of indigenous people was attempted since a reliable source of labor was needed to obtain Portuguese commercial objectives. 

It became apparent, however, due to the Indians' periodic rebelliousness, susceptibility to European disease and complete incomprehension as to what the notion of productivity was - combined with a corresponding aversion to hard labor - that Negro slaves imported from West Africa were much more valuable.

"Hell on Earth"

Tobacco was the main product exchanged for African slave cargoes. Plantation life was comparable to hell, wrote a Jesuit Father trying to convert African and Indian slaves to Christianity in 1627, but it was from land worked by slaves that the economy and society of Brazil unfolded.(4) 

Slave desertions among Indians were regular since they were relatively familiar with the territory and able to communicate amongst themselves about how best to flee. 

Negro slaves, on the other hand, frequently came from diverse regions of Africa and were of many different ethnicities. 

As a result, many African slaves were unable to communicate with each other, let alone the Indians or Portuguese they encountered in Africa or Brazil. African slaves were completely ignorant as to how to survive in the countryside or jungles of Brazil.

They had neither a historical, linguistic, nor genealogical basis on which to unite, so their potential for collective rebellion was all but nonexistent. 

For better or worse, Negroes adapted to the brutal system of forced labor over time. Unlike Brazilian Indians, Africans had been uprooted, arbitrarily separated and brought in successive waves to an alien land. 

Thus, the plight of the African slave was in many ways even more hopeless than that of the Brazilian Indian, which was at best doomed. 

Development, Portuguese Style

The notion of development is contradictory during Brazil's colonial period (1500-1822) because, as in Spanish America, the Portuguese crown neither encouraged nor permitted the growth of industry.(4) 

The economic activity that did take place was based entirely on extractive wealth from the land.(4) This wealth was appropriated by the crown in large measure and deposited into the Portuguese royal treasury in Lisbon. 

As a sociologist, Cardoso highlights the significance of slavery in his research because it illustrates how the Negro's present day position in Brazilian society is a reflection of their heritage, and how this heritage of slavery must be considered when one discusses dependency and development in Latin America. 

An external event set into motion a process which would lead first to Brazilian independence and finally to the abolition of slavery by the end of the 19th century.

As we shall see next, this process would have a profound effect on not only Cardoso and his analysis of dependency and development in Latin America, but on the entire course of Brazilian history. 

(1)  Freire, V.T. 1996. "Para lembrar o que ele escreveu: FHC explica a formação de suas idéias sobre a história brasileira e por que elas não mudaram" (Remembering what he wrote: FHC explains the formation of his ideas about Brazilian history and why they haven't changed). Folha de S. Paulo, October 13, 1996. 

(2) Kahl, J.A. 1976. Three Latin American Sociologists: Gino Germani, Pablo Gonzales Casanova, Fernando Henrique Cardoso. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction, Inc.

(3) International Sociological Association. 1998. "Books of the Century." ISA XIV World Congress of Sociology (Montréal, 26 July-1 August 1, 1998). Referenced May 20, 2005 (http://www.ucm.es/info/isa/books/vt/bkv_000.htm).
 
(4) Levine, Robert. 1999. The History of Brazil. Westport, Connecticut: Greenwood Press.
 
(5) Cardoso, Fernando Henrique. 1962. Capitalismo e Escravidão no Brasil Meridional (Capitalism and Slavery in Southern Brazil). São Paulo: Difusão Européia do Livro.

This is the third part of a multi-part series on former Brazilian President Fernando Henrique Cardoso.

Richard F. Kane, from the Department of Sociology and Anthropology of Illinois State University, can be reached at rfkane@ilstu.edu.



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Comments (35)Add Comment
...
written by Guest, May 29, 2005
Why do you suck up to him so hard?
Perhaps you were the lucky one who bought CVRD, brazilian state property he sold away like it was his pair of shoes.
...
written by Guest, May 29, 2005
Sério... daqui a pouco o saco do FHC vai cair
I am disgusted
written by Guest, May 29, 2005
What an offensive image to present, I seriously think you should consider changing the picture at the top of the page."It is revolting, one would think a public magazine, such as this, would have better taste"...
The picture is accurate
written by Guest, May 29, 2005
Beatings, murders and rapes were the order of the day during slavery and set the stage for future race relations in the Americas. I am a black American and all you have to do is substitute an Anglo Saxon master wielding a whip and you have the same sense of American slavery.

Unfortuntately former slave holding societies will never own up to their travesty against it's black population so it is a waste of time (and money) to keep analyzing the situation of slavery in the Americas. The plight of black people today is a DIRECT result of centuries of being dehumanized and held back. Fast forward 500 years and nothing has changed.

America throw s a few crumbs to it's black citizens, but only a few. The horrors of slavery will never be acknowledged except by the descendants of those captive Africans and blacks as a whole will continue as used up outcasts and rejects in the former slaveholding societies.
What kind of Artical...????
written by Guest, May 29, 2005
I think the world is sick and tired of hearing about and see images of slavery in all of its glory. What is the point in displaying such grotest images if they serve no real purpose? I am a 21 year Mulatto from Canada, I do not come from a history steeped in slavery, and so I greatly resent hearing words such as slave and master in this context, especially when considering the fact that I as an individual have enough sense to know that the people being held in this bondage at this time were little less than innocent victems of an unconsionable people and Federal government. The word "Slave", was nothing more than a title given by savage beasts with no sense of honour nor faith in god ("See it for what it really was")..

I also resent the fact that there was no mention of Brazils many African slave revolts, and/or colonies, as well as the history of Capoeira."When I first heard of these things", my mind was emidiately filled with a sense of astonishement, knowing that a disenfranshised minority could not only rise up, but strike down full national miltiary assults on their soverity in a land where they were not supposed to have any, spoke volumes. These type of stories can really say alot about the Brazilian people and their character as well as their humanity," unlike the sorry artical above".....


To the poster above: I seriously beleave you are a mentaly enslaved person, or maybe just sorry defeatist."I remember you very well".........."I still like you though" (no hard feelings).
...
written by Guest, May 30, 2005
At 21 years of age, son, you have a lot of living to do. When blacks complain about the effects of centuries of slavery and racism most of them are not crying "victim" or giving up in life. Blacks have done a commendable job considering the barriers they have had to leap over.

However, by not acknowledging the debts that former slave holding colonies still owe blacks, allows these countries to just sweep the ongoing problem under the rug. The Jews would never stand for this. I just attended a 60th year commemoration of the Holocaust and many Jews showed up at the ceremony in Rolls Royces, private planes and many were multimillionaires.

However, not once did a Jewish person stand up and tell his fellow Jews "stop playing the victim and whining about the Holocaust. Let's move on and stop walking around with a defeatist mentality." No. The Jews will never forget and sweep it under the rug but yet blacks (who have received none of the reparations of the Jews and because of their race are still heavily discriminated against" are still told to stop whining, crying, playing the victim and move on.

Blacks are not playing the victim they were victims and there is nothing shameful in being a victim. Many blacks do not wallow in self pity and defeat. Most have made a way out of no way but this does not mean that the former slave holding colonies do not need to make reparations or do not need to acknowledge slavery.

You are still young, live a few more years and you will learn a bit more. It is wonderful that young people like yourself are moving forward and taking life by storm. That is commendable. I applaud all young people like yourself. However the past needs to be acknowledged. Maybe not so much in Canada because it was not a slave holding territory but the Americas still do. And without monetary reparations the ghettoes of America will continue to be warzones.

When blacks make the economic strides of the Jews maybe they can move forward. However, no matter how wealthy the descendants of the Holocaust survivors become that does not entitle them to "forget" or not remember the pain and sufferings of their ancestors and it definitely does not let the perpetrators of the atrocities connected with the Holocaust get off the hook and not one of them would are to tell a Jew "that you weren't actually in the camps yourselves, so just get over it, move on and stop playing the victim".

Countries and nations who commit wholesale genocide and oppression against a group or groups of people need to pay up and acknowledge that debt and America has yet to do so.
Non-sense
written by Guest, May 30, 2005
"Unfortuntately former slave holding societies will never own up to their travesty against it's black population so it is a waste of time (and money) to keep analyzing the situation of slavery in the Americas."

You should not forget that virtually all African countries where "slave holding societies" and actively cooperated with, and profited from, the slave traffic.
I wonder if you also think it is correct that Italians should pay compensations to other countries for the atrocities committed by the Roman Empire smilies/smiley.gif

About the comparisons with Jews, they are so laughable to the point of deserving no comments. Jews have always been prosperous people (mostly thanks to their working ethics). They owned the banking and financing systems of several European countries since the end of middle-ages.
If they run in “Mercedes” and “Rolls Royces” nowadays, it is hardly because of compensations received after the Holocaust.

Do you want to help black-people? Work hard, make money, send black kids to School. Not to listen to rap and strengthen their supposed “black identity” (as it is usual in some schools in the U.S.) but to learn math, English and improve their SAT scores.
Latinos are prospering faster than blacks in the U.S. nowadays and one of the reasons for that, in my opinion, is this “victim” mentality, still shared by so many, as proved here by your post.
The names Bernie, we\'ve spoken
written by Guest, May 30, 2005
Sir, I was not asking of you to just forget the past and move forward (respectivly).The point I was trying to make was, by needlessly showing theses type of images, and posting this kind of artical, nothing is being done to represent blacks as an equal (if not superior) member of the human race, but rather further perpetuates negative stereotypes and images that do not do anybody justice. In my opionion, this type artical is nothing more than a substandard and lowely smack in the face. This type of work can easily be found on any white power web site on the net...

I also am a strong beleaver that Blacks in general do genuinely deserve reparations for the savagery commited against their communties in the past; but if I know one thing it's white people, and whites couldn't f**king care less about the past, present or anything that does not profit themselves or benefit their families. Repartions for blacks will not do either, and so regardless of weather western wealth in modern times is or is not built off the hard work and labour or your ancestors (maybe my own), they (whites) could not care any less.. (excuse my language, sir)


"Also, I do not beleave that blacks should have to(shouldn't) refer to themselfs as the desendents of slaves", but rather the desendents of victems of a primative western frame of mind, as well as an outrageously disproportionate and racially barbaric society where the majority was given the luxury and freedom by law, to label and do with a minority whatever he so chose. However, this was a self imposed luxury, and was not handed down by god, and therefore was little more than arbitrarilly forced dominance permitted by an 90% imbalance in the the countries population, as well as an illmoral peoples pure and wicked intensions from the beginning....... "In other words, blacks were not slaves, whites just say they were slaves, and get away with it"......

I beleave the only way blacks will ever recieve their share of justice for the crimes committed in the name of white America and her diesease, "gold fever", will either come by way of secretly capturing and taking individual white persons hostage and then viciously beating, raping as well as destroying any lingering pride they may have jamed inside of their swollen and self masturbated heads , while under the protection of a sawed of shot gun, a close friend, and a secret location....... Or, more Black youth can work very hard to get into a greater number of authoritative governmental and non governmental job postions, while alliing themself with members of other racial groups to form a more balanced society where whites are the minority when compared with the separtarte minority groups....."In other words, blacks will recieve reparations when the idea can be forced down white societies throat"..."They don't care"..


"Please sir, I was not asking you to forget the past, I was merrily trying to point out the subordinance I had sensed in your character"....

I think this will makes either the third or four time we have crossed paths... Names Bernie/ The goldenchild/ BlueBlaze/ The Evening sunset kid/ Eldorado knight...."Just joking, it's just Bernie".



The Eldorado knight. Boo!!!!
written by Guest, May 30, 2005
Whites can be a consciously ignorant and low minded bunch of morons.You should not be reliying on there good nature to bring about any kind societal change, because interms of society, they like things just the way were, in 1950's (well, at least the old ones). Mind you, Canada was alot diffrentfrom the States in the 1950's.... "wink wink"
Off topic, I know.
written by Guest, May 30, 2005
Actually, come to think of it, I dout there have been any captive blacks in my ancestry, but that still does not excuse the racial perjudice that can be still found in the America today. For example, in Ghana ( I am half Ghanaian by the way) we had a girl who worked at my aunts home, in fact, she did almost all of the work around the house and did not recieve any money at all (I honestly do not know what her status may have been, I never got it up to ask, but there is a possiblity should have been a willing kind of slave); but she certainly was not whipped, she may have been scolded at times, but never whipped nor racially discriminated aginst in any way; there may have been times when she was intellectually discriminated against, but never racially... "Sorry about earlier, I was just trying to relate"...

Racial discrimination is one of the most primative and superficial forms of discrimination in know existance. Geneticists have discovered, after mapping the entire human genome that the diffrence between each human indiviual is something like 0.001%, and the - approximate - figure transends race. What this essentially means is that a man living in Mongolia can be gentically more similar to a man from sweden than another to another Mongolian man from the same town or village. Geneticists have also noted that the genes responsible for traits such as facial features, hair texture as well as skin colour are controlled by only 5 or 6 of the 100 000 genes found in every human cell, while a trait like hight is controlled by dozens if not more, further more, traits such as intelligence and personality are controlled by tens of thousands of genes if not more. It is also said that every human being contains the same five of six genes responsible for traits like facial features, hair texture and skin colour. Simply put, race is virtually non exsistant on a biological level ........ "Don't buy into white hype, it's usually just nonsense"....

" I don't know about you, but I do not appreciate being lied to about something as personal as race", especially considering the fact I'm usually three to four times better than the next man ... (ha ha), I'm just joking, or am I???

Bernie
written by Guest, May 30, 2005
Please excuse the minor punctuation errors found throughout the first paragaph of my last post..."The one directly above". " My apologies, I know better "....
...
written by Guest, May 30, 2005
Everyone here makes valid posts but let's not compare blacks to other immigrant groups who freely came to America of their own free will. And many of them commit illegal acts go get ahead in life. Mexicans are allowed to come to this country illegally and are allowed acess, even though of questionable immigration status. to capital that black American citizens have no access to.

Secondly Mexicans are the beneficiaries of the black civil rights movement which opened up immigration to the nonwhite people for the first time in about a century.

Thirdly Mexicans and others came at a time when the white population is in a rapid decline so they have the strength of numbers. Blacks are not playing the victim when they cry "foul". To compare blacks to any other group who chose to come here is pure folly.

As a Federal agent of the US govt I could tell you all of the criminal and quasi legal activities a lot of these immigrants engage in to get ahead which the US govt simply ignores or is too afraid to confront. White people simply roll over and play coward when illegals cross their borders boldly in broad daylight.

Blacks ARE the victims of a racist corrupt society and I make no apologies for that. As for blacks listening to rap when they should be studying, the same goes for white kids who only get into good schools because their parents have the money to buy their way in.

Americans of all races are a lazy, slovenly anti-intellectual people. Most American youth spend most of their time in front of the tv or goofing off with friends. To be called a "nerd" instead of a "hottie" or "jock" is the ultimate no no.

Yes blacks are fools to expect that white people will ever have the moral or ethical wherewithal to take responsibility for their actions and evils. So what if a few Africans participated in the trade. A good number of slaves were captured as the result of raids on entire villages with no middle men involved. The fact that some Africans were participants in the barbarous trade does not excuse white people who freely purchased these slaves and agreed to do business with them. This does not excuse the cruelties, atrocities and murders that were the daily fare of the slave. This does not excuse the discarding of the blacks when they were no longer profitable for the use by white people and in all cases they were discarded from society.

This does not excuse the crooked, corrupt, racist ways in which blacks are treated. Blacks receive the lion share of the racism in the US. Other groups can afford to prosper because they have never had to put up with the destruction of their business communities by the KKK or other white racist hate groups who freely destroyed many black cities and towns in the first half of the 20th century.

When you find another group that has had to put up with the same crap as blacks then you can get on your high horse but don't give me that shyt that all immigrants are honest hard working people because as a Federal Agent who has worked for US customs, Drug Enforcement, and Border Patrol I know better.
...
written by Guest, May 30, 2005
And furthermore for all whites who think that their ancestors were such hardworking immigrants, most of them engaged in illegal activities also be they Jewish, Irish and Italian. The patriarch of the Kennedy clan made his millions in illegal bootleg liquor and so did a lot of other white families of prominence today so don't sit there and castigate the petty black drug dealers.

The only difference between blacks and non blacks is that nonblacks are allowed by a crooked and corrupt govt to take the profits of their drug businesses and parlay them into lucrative businesses while blacks go to jail for dealing.

Hell the US govt receives the biggest slice of America's pie. America is the most corrupt country on earth. Most of the "successful" immigrants who come here are traitors to their own nations, making money off of the death of their own citizens and those who have ripped off the coffers of their own nations. They are the drug lords, warlords and brothel owners of their respective nations. Few immigrants make it cleaning toilet bowls.

They are as corrupt and cutthroat as the successful white thugs that run the US economy.
...
written by Guest, May 30, 2005
The Jews are a prosperous people because of their work ethic? Don't make me laugh. The Jews have always been a race of crooked thugs who engaged in many illegal and quasilegal practices. Even the Holocaust was a scheme to get money from the European govt to then purchase Israel.

The Holocaust is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on a stupid gullible world. The Jews are very cunning and manipulative that is how they get ahead in life. They own all of the world's financial institutions so yes they would be very wealthy.

And they are the biggest criers of "victim, victim". Every damn week another book or movie comes out on the Holocaust most of it revisionist demonizing diatribes against the Germans, Hitlers and other propenents of the Holocaust which was a farce to begin with.

If other groups were half as crooked, cunning and expert liars as the Jews they would have received billions in reparations too.
More Meds, More Tinfoil
written by Guest, May 31, 2005
The Holocaust a hoax? No, "a scheme to get money from the European govt to then purchase Israel"? Wait, which is it? Oh, it's both. Riiiiight. Yooooo-hoooooo! Up the meds. Add more tinfoil on your head. I certainly hope that wasn't the Federal Agent there! Chillingly crazy talk there! Perhaps you forgot to preface those statements with the phrase, "I'd have to be the biggest f**king idiot in the world to believe…"
...
written by Guest, May 31, 2005
The Holocaust was a scheme cooked up by Zionist Jews, mostly Americans to bilk the European government out of multi millions of dollars and to acquire Israel one of the most prime pieces of real estate in the world and it worked making the Jews the richest people on earth.

The Zionists knew that they would have to sacrifice between three to ten million of their European brethren to the death camps of Europe. In other worlds they "sold" their European brethren into Nazi slavery but that is the way of American capitalism.

And looked what they reaped from the Holocaust - multi millions and the money is still rolling in. They also received asylum in other parts of the world making it possible for them to establish holdings in the South African diamond mines. Screw apartheid and it's black "holocaust" as long as the Zionists get paid.

And the gullible stupid world bought it hook, line and sinker.
\"I don\'t know\" ?.....
written by Guest, May 31, 2005
1) Dude, are you some kind of Nazi?? The Jews ain't so bad, I mean, I have never met one personally, but they manage to keep America in check, and this pleases me.....

2) To all the Brazilian babes down there in Hotty ville central, I'm coming to get cha!! Canada is a cold place, and I am in need of warm Brazilian lovin'. I'm not sure when, but I will soon devoure you, devour you in all of your sweet sweet Brazilian glory. "Moowha ha ha ha ha ha ha"!! "MOOWHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA"!!!!!!!!

3) "I hope this post will not detract from the post directly above"...

4)"To the old guy / Government agent": I personally beleave we share alot of the same views, and I still respect you as a person, "but the Holucaust staging theory seems a little far fetched"... "Where are you getting your information"?? "Seriously, I would like to know, humour me please".....

"Your friend Bernie/ BlueBlaze, a.k.a The young man in need of more life experience"...
RE: NON-SENSE
written by Guest, May 31, 2005
It is true that african societies 500 years ago traded slaves. It is also true that european societies traded slaves (Roman Empire). The Jews who were delivered out of the house of slaves by their matchless God Jehovah traded slaves. However they were to release those slaves at the end of six years! The American slaveholder claimed to be Christian and knew of Gods law on the release of slaves after 6 years! He ignored Gods law and became no more than a common oppressor of man! He even went beyond common oppressor to prolific oppressor fighting a war to continue his slave trading ways! Did he stop his slave trading just because he lost this war! NO! He enacted JIM CROW LAWS, BLACK CODES, SUPREME COURT DECISIONS (DRED SCOTT), FAVORABLE WHITE IMMIGRATION LAWS, to continue his white supremist ways. The American Sysem of Government entered into accountability, and culpability by enacting "LAWS OF THE LAND" that effectively made it impossible for African Americans to succeed at any endeavor! No other group immigrant or otherwise has been subjected to the same kind of State sponsored violations of human rights, except the Native Americans.(Another Unique Human Rights Atrosity) So MR. NON-SENSE when you start spouting off your mouth about slavery, be very careful since it is you and your kids who will pay the debt for your living the American Dream at the expense of African American Former Slaves. The law of reciprosity is just like the law of gravity, what goes up must come down, and what goes around comes around! Look for your kind to end up in slavery at some future date, unless you make atonement for the gross sin of slavery here on American soil!
Lets all take a deep breath....
written by Guest, June 01, 2005
Things are a bit heated here, so I am going to attempt to bring some points up in a manner that does not inflame the debate.

First of all, there are all kinds of white Americans. I happen to be an immigrant white American. 200 years ago, my ancestors were living in the highlands of Scotland, in stone houses they shared with their animals. I am quite certain no one in my direct line ever owned a slave. In fact the lives of my ancestors were probably closer to the lives of slaves than of their white lords and ladies that ruled them with an iron fist. So I personally feel no responsibility for slavery. And there are a lot of Americans like me. The simple fact is that not one person in Ameica has ever owned a slave. We have no responsibility for it. The earlier writer is correct. No apologies or breaks will be forthcoming from white people, who feel the sins of the father cannot be visited upon the son.

Now has the lot of black Americans (north and south) been extremely difficult? Undoubtedly. The path that must be taken by a black person is harder than the one I have to take. I don't think anyone would disagree with that concept. Blacks are routinely treated differently, and with suspicion, in a way that whites cannot hope to understand.

But the simple fact is that we live in the present, not the past. The key to anyone improving their life has to do with how they deal with the reality they face at the moment. Nothing can change the past, but it is possible to change the future. Reparations, apologies, etc. will not make one real bit of difference in the lives of black Americans. The only thing that will make a difference is hard, back breaking work that blacks will have to do in order to earn a place at the table through the only power that matters-economic.. This struggle will take generations.. Parents will have to work lousy jobs at low pay, and will have to push their children to get educated. The children will have to make the best of their opportunities, and then work within the (white) system to succeed, become financially successful, and boost the grandchildren up further. That is the only way to real improvement, and a tremendous sacrifice will have to made by the current generation of poorblack Americans so that their children will have the chance to reach a bit higher up on the ladder..

Now is this fair, you might ask? Of course it isn't. Blacks have had obstacles thrown in their path for hundreds of years. And obstacles remain. The simple fact is that a black person has to work harder to succeed than a white person. But fair or not, it is the way of the world we live in. The key is recognizing the reality and striving to overcome it.

Ha.
written by Guest, June 01, 2005
Shut up!!
\"Goldenchild\"
written by Guest, June 01, 2005
If anything, white Americas shallow minded and self gradifying society will need to be broken down and then re built into a more suitable and just society, in the eyes of god; not remain a society where everybody but whites will have to brake their back in oder to succeed ("In god we trust", what American non sense). The Scottish bloke posted above is a very good example of a nonchantlant white bigot, regardless of his foreign background ("we all know you take a sense of pride in Americas current situation"). "He basically goes to says, white Americians have it very easy, while other racial groups do not, and everybody else just needs to get the hell over it, and then get down on to their knees so they may suck at white Americas small and deformed pink c**k"....


"Buddy, your not even a real American, so shut your goddamed mouth". "CHANGES ARE DUE", and not the other way around..



"Thank god for the jews, white Americas current slave masters". "Enjoy your Success"!!





The Semetic brothers of man, "do your thing"!!.. "To hell with Japithe"!

Lets all take a deep breath....
written by Guest, June 01, 2005
I could not agree most with you, man! Great words. Blacks have to be pragmatic. They have to chose between being like our angry friend above who wrote about "breaking the white society" and end being second class citzens, always proclaming how unfair the world is or to workd harder than whites, get good education, good salaries and force their way up the society. I pick up the second option.
Goldenchild/Bernie
written by Guest, June 01, 2005
"I could not quite make out what you were trying to say, but I will respond regardless"...

First of all, When useing a term like second class citizen, you should not forget the reasoning behind the thinking, fore, it is based on the beleaf that money and money alone defines human value..... " That is not how it works in god eyes, as well as my own, SCOTTY"..

In my opinion, f**k working harder than whites. Who the hell are they in the first place, and why the hell should I have to work harder than they do???....... "THIS IS MY THINKING"

"Also, I have gotten the impression that you beleave yourself to be very smart". Well, all I had been trying to say in my last post was, I do not find white people to be special, and I do not beleave they should recieve special treatment at the expence of ANYBODY.

For example: I am only 21, but white people of all ages seem like little more than slow minded and arrogant whishful thinkers from my perspective. In fact, it takes very little effort on my part to exceed any of my white peers in ability, and not only do I find overwhelming their expections to be easy, but damned near simple. Nearly all of my friends have been white, as well, nearly all of my friends have acknowledged my character as being beyond their own (even if just alittle). Others may not find it so simple ( Also, others may not be as handsome as myself, "really" ), but why should they be held back because they are but EQUAL, and a not SUPERIOR?? ..... "This is my question to you"!!!.... Why do I ask this question, you may ask??? Well sir, because YOUR whole notion seems plain stupid as well as stacked in White favour...Think of the implications. Society must be changed, and the self impossed white non sense that over runs, as well as over rides American thinking must be eliminated for good.....

"Sorry, I had to come off as conceited and pig headed to get my point across"...... "My apologies".
My final post
written by Guest, June 01, 2005
I suppose it is futile to have a conversation on this topic without name calling or emotional language being used. But I will attempt one more time to make my point in the hope that people can relax, read what is said, and react calmly.

And I guess the larger point is this: Success only comes from dealing with the real world in a constructive and positive manner. True justice and fairness only comes in the next life, not this one. No one is going to lay down and make things easier for one to get ahead in the world. You have to make it happen for yourself. And if you are less educated, wealthy, etc than someone else, the simple fact is that you WILL have to work harder than others to get to the same level they were born into. As I said before-this is NOT FAIR. But what in life is? If life were fair, I would be rich and famous instead of Paris Hilton.

My friend above is quite right-in God's eyes how much money you are worth is not important. But here on Earth your economic power is your best (imperfect) method of worth. Simply put, rich people have a better deal than poor people. And seeing as I was not born rich, there is no other way up than a lot of hard work on my part.

My point, to beat a dead horse, is not about justice, fairness, equality or harmony . None of things really exist, and black people suffer most of all from a lack of these things. My point is about truth. Accepting the truth and working to change it is much more productive than ignoring the truth and obsessing with the unfairness of it all.

I will also say, as a final point, that the plight of the poor of Brazil is much worse than the poor in the US. In the US there are some opportunities for improvement. In Brazil those opportunities are much harder to come by.



Hoax
written by Guest, June 01, 2005
To the Nazi holocaust revisonist: you are a real loon. I'm having trouble reacting calmly to such a load of horses**t. Sorry. But, the guy really needs to have his head examined.
The point
written by Guest, June 01, 2005
You really do not understand the point. Sorry.

Yes, we live in the present. How true. That is a tautology.

Now, you seem to acknowledge that black people have it worse than white folks. Why would that be? Maybe because of a long history…damn the past…that affects the present? There are a whole bunch of people in the US who profited from slavery, the oppression of blacks. When the slaves were freed, they were not given equal rights. They were not raised to the status of the slave owners and all those other non-slaves (most of whom were white) who profited by the slave economy, which includes non-slave owners.

I'm sorry you feel personally affected by actions that are taken in the present to try to right the wrongs of the present, cuased by wrongs of the past, but that's really irrelevant. It's not you, personally, who are called upon to try to make things more just. It is we as a society which gained as a society from the work of slaves who are called upon to make our society more just. I, for one, do so willingly. Slavery lasted for 300 years in the US. How about we make affirmative efforts to create a level playing field for the next 200 years? When sufficient time has passed, we hope sooner than the next 200 years, and black people are sharing in the wealth of society in the same way whites are enjoying the wealth of society, then it will be time to stop.

Since enslaving whites for 300 years as an effort to get things to a level playing field is offensive to everyone's sense of fair play, it's fortunate for use whites that no one is suggesting that.

What are you doing to make the world just? Isn't that the point?
...
written by Guest, June 02, 2005
Slavery is the oldest profession in the world. It has always existed. People have been enslaving other people since the dawn of time so when black people ask respective governments for "reparations for slavery" they are asking said governments to repay them for an institution that has existed since the dawn of mankind.

As a student of African diasporic studies it is true that the transatlantic slave trade was the most brutal in recorded human history, totally dehumanizing and disenfrachising the individual. Yes there should be compensation for the gross human rights abuses that went on during those times and is still going on towards blacks in the disapora.

However the day of recompence will be slow in coming perhaps in another 150 to 200 years when everything has evened itself out. Yes racism still exists and it doesn't really matter how hard an individual black person works since the rewards of a white supremacist society are doled out at the whims of the white powers that be.

All I can say is do the best you can to learn and study African cultures and societies and prepare yourself for when opportunity comes even if it doesn't come in your lifetime. It may not come for many generations but there is nothing like being prepared for it when it does come.
And Hitler\'s mother was a Jew
written by Guest, June 02, 2005
I heard this somewhere a few years back, however, I take it with a grain of salt as the course on the Jews was taught by a right wing fundamentalist "Jerry Falwell" type individual.

Yes these teachings go on all the time in America's Bible Belt by men who consider themselves messengers of God but it is acceptable in a lot of bible colleges which are valid colleges.

A lot of Americans subsribe to this type of thinking.
Don\'t wait
written by Guest, June 02, 2005
"People have been enslaving other people since the dawn of time so when black people ask respective governments for "reparations for slavery" they are asking said governments to repay them for an institution that has existed since the dawn of mankind."

No, in the US it just means for the 300 years of slavery there. Anyway, there will be no "reparations" paid. But certainly some affirmative action needs to be taken to get things right. And, I would say, don't wait around. Be politially active. Work for justice. Work for change. That goes for all people. I would hope that everyone wants to see a society that does not treat people unfairly because of the color of thier skin. That takes work, not sitting around waiting.

Oh, and prostitution is "the oldest profession." Similar to slavery. That reminds me that we should not leave women's rights out of this. Work for women's equality too.
Bernie
written by Guest, June 02, 2005
"This is what I have been trying to say through out my last few posts"!!! "This individual has driven it home". "Good job"!!!!.

"The gental touch of a female, I presume"......... I bet your a chick.
Bernie
written by Guest, June 02, 2005
"This is what I have been Trying to say Throughout my last few posts"!!! "This individual has driven it home". "Good Job"!!!!

"The gental touch of a female, I presume".....
Re: Let\'s all take a deep breath
written by Guest, June 02, 2005
A deep breath is what we have been taking for almost 400 years! Again the Israelite nation spent 400 years in egypt and had to be freed by God! Precedent set! Pharoah had to take a bath in the Red Sea to get over his addiction to FREE LABOR! No nation built on the backs of slaves can function without slaves. THIS IS THE REALITY OF AMERICA! To the gentlman of scottish descent you say that "I am quite certain no one in my direct line ever owned a slave," you also said that, " The simple fact is that not one person in Ameica has ever owned a slave. We have no responsibility for it. The earlier writer is correct. No apologies or breaks will be forthcoming from white people, who feel the sins of the father cannot be visited upon the son. " Without American slavery you would still be living in a house with animals, therefore you personally benefitted from the American institution of slavery! You became responsible for slavery when your ancestors migrated to this country and seeing an opportunity to step on the backs of black people fighting for their freedom you took the side of the white racist oppressor, in other words your ancestors made a choice to go along with the white establishment by taking trade jobs that blacks were holding, lynchings, beatings etc to instill terror into the black populations in the neighborhoods that your ancestors invaded when they arrived here in America! We dont expect any apologies from whites such as yourself because that is just a human quality that you dont possess! Animals also do not possess the quality that would cause a person to apologize! So you and your kind are in good company! The company of WOLVES! I believe, and history has proven that the sins of the father can be brought on the son. The American institution of slavery is the best teacher of that principle where the white slavers breeded black slaves into perpetuity. Were they not trying to bring the sins of the father onto the son? You said that, " The path that must be taken by a black person is harder than the one I have to take. I don't think anyone would disagree with that concept. Blacks are routinely treated differently, and with suspicion, in a way that whites cannot hope to understand." I choose not to think of it that way since I look at the obstacles of white racism in a different way, and have been quite successful at jumping over, under, around those obstacles that have been thrown at me since I entered public school. I believe that you have the harder life since nothing is expected of me, and I have achieved a measure of success in my life dispite racism heavy hand and against all odds. Most black people feel the same way. I think integration was the worst thing to happen to blacks, it weakened our resolve to punish whites for slavery. One of the smartest moves ever was Lyndon Johnson pushing the Civil Rights bills through congress since it averted another civil war in which "the sins of the father would have been brought on the sons." Communist Russia was right down in Latin America just waiting to arm blacks with AK 47s to kick your white racist asses! You said,
"But the simple fact is that we live in the present, not the past." Not here in America! Whites do their best to keep blacks in their place, which is in effect living in the past. You see it's not blacks who are keeping this racist thing going it's whites! You need to get over it! No one is going to be your slave. We, blacks are not impressed with you because we know who you really are, our grandfathers, cousins, brothers, sisters. One very good example of this is Senator Strom Thurmond! Matter of fact "THE ORIGINAL DEADBEAT DADS IN THIS COUNTRY WERE THE SLAVE HOLDERS AND EVERY OTHER WHITE RACIST THAT SLEPT WITH BLACK WOMEN, CAUSED PREGNANCIES, AND DENIED RESPONSIBILITY!" THIS IS A REPARATION THAT WE HAVE NOT BEGAN TO TALK ABOUT! KEEP PASSING CHILD SUPPORT LAWS IN THIS COUNTRY AIMED AT BLACK MEN AND YOU WILL HAVE AN UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE! "The sins of the father will come to be on the sons". You said, " The only thing that will make a difference is hard, back breaking work that blacks will have to do in order to earn a place at the table through the only power that matters-economic.. This struggle will take generations.. Parents will have to work lousy jobs at low pay, and will have to push their children to get educated. The children will have to make the best of their opportunities, and then work within the (white) system to succeed, become financially successful, and boost the grandchildren up further. That is the only way to real improvement, and a tremendous sacrifice will have to made by the current generation of poorblack Americans so that their children will have the chance to reach a bit higher up on the ladder.. " Is 300+ years of hard back breaking slave work enough for you! I submit that blacks should do something different than your suggestion, get the hell out of America and let the white man suffer reciprosity for his evil acts. By clearing out of here, God can then punish you without punishing the victims as well! You said, " The simple fact is that a black person has to work harder to succeed than a white person. But fair or not, it is the way of the world we live in. The key is recognizing the reality and striving to overcome it. " Black people have always worked harder than whites, therefore we have evolved to a higher level of activity than whites, we think on a higher level than whites, we are focused on our own agendas. We dont believe in fairness when it comes to whites in other words we have "JUST GIVEN UP ON YOU." So we look forward to the day when there will be no racist whites anywhere on the planet earth. I think God said "the meek shall inherit the earth. " Most racist white are not meek, therfore they wont be around. All of your houses buildings, cars, etc will automatically go to the black people that you tried so hard to oppress! THANKS FOR WORKING SO HARD FOR ME!



Re: Dont Wait
written by Guest, June 02, 2005
We live in a society that has laws prohibiting the very things that America became great doing. Slavery! This will be a large part of Americas legacy in 1,000 years. Get use to that! This group in charge now only morphs into different racist creatures whenever you try to affirmatively level the playing field. They are hardened and bent on keeping the status quo. Sad to say that the only real change will come when blacks take up arms and give the racist a long overdue butt kicking! They are even preparing for that. More prisons, Patriot Act, Department of Homeland Security, Urban Warfare training in Iraq, just to name a few.
Re: Dont Wait
written by Guest, June 02, 2005
Sounds kinda like Nazi Germany's Fatherland. Let's fight for the fatherland, let's fight for the Queen, all european war motivation nationalistic, racist brainwashing tactics! Homeland security, I thought we already had a department in charge of that, Customs! Looks like we paid taxes for nothing! And 2,700 Americans died horrible deaths as a result. Thanks Great White Father you are now responsible for killing you own. Call it modern day ritualistic sacrifice, American style!
Re: Dont Wait
written by Guest, June 15, 2005
Yeah 535 priests in Washington D.C. AKA Congress get together and iron out the details of ritualistic sacrifice.

Then they send their instructions to the High priest (President), who then signs the scrolls into law.

Then all the sycophants in the States and local goverments rally the masses to perform the ritualistic sacrifice on persons deemed unworthy namely, low income, homeless, unemployed, minorities, you get the picture!

Sometimes they perform sacrifices on the rich such as on 911!

They are currently targeting the American middle class, the goal is to weaken and turn one against the other by manipulating jobs, outsourcing, downsizing, etc.

Eventually America will become like the Movie Soylent Green!

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