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Without Goals Brazil Won't Reach Self-Sufficiency in Science and Technology PDF Print E-mail
Written by Cristovam Buarque   
Wednesday, 03 May 2006 11:18

Brazilian President dirties hand in oil to celebrate Brazil's self-sufficiency in the productAfter almost eighty years of effort, we have attained self-sufficiency in petroleum. That process began in 1938, with national investments in the sector, and continued with the creation of Petrobras fifty years ago.

It began in the authoritarian, nationalistic, developmentalist, and laborist regime of Getúlio Vargas. It continued in the dictatorship and in the democracy; it faced developmentalist, reformist and neo-liberal models and the administrations of fourteen presidents. Self-sufficiency was achieved because Brazil persisted.

Unfortunately, that national project is not being repeated in other areas. After more than one hundred years of the Republic, we are commemorating advances that are small, insufficient, much less than in other countries. Unlike with petroleum, we are commemorating our remaining behind in relation to the rest of the world.

We are celebrating the fact that we have had a Brazilian on board a Russian space station when China has already sent its astronauts up in its own spacecraft; India is preparing to do the same shortly; and other countries are advancing in their space research.

We consider it a victory to have a passenger who paid for a voyage on a spacecraft with technology unknown to us; we have no other project to master this technology. We do not have a goal for space self-sufficiency and the one we set thirty years ago, when we were probably ahead of China, was not continued.

We invest in science and technology in institutes and universities but in a way that is inconsistent, disorganized and without goals. As a result, we have taken smaller steps than other countries, where there is continuity and there are goals to be met. We are not self-sufficient in science and technology because we reduced the investments in the sector and the support to the research centers.

We commemorate each time that adults complete their literacy courses, but we abandoned the project of eradicating illiteracy, initiated in 2003. The old, gradual work of literacy instruction continues without a goal of self-sufficiency. We even disbanded the Secretariat for Eradicating Illiteracy. It is as if Petrobras were extinct and Brazil were concerned simply with drilling oil wells.

Brazil is commemorating the increase in school enrollments, but it does not seek the self-sufficiency of having all children attend class in full-day sessions and graduate from a quality high school. We are not pursuing goals for education as we did with petroleum.

We are celebrating the expansion of the Bolsa Família, when, in truth, its excessive size is proof of the social failure since self-sufficiency of the program would mean that fewer and fewer people have need of it.

The program does not assure the families self-sufficiency, which will not come from income but rather from the education of their children. Even worse, instead of maintaining the program from the prior administrations, as was done with Petrobras, we altered its educational objectives, removing its links with the Ministry of Education.

Recently the government commemorated the new minimum wage, but without a goal to recoup its value and aim for the self-sufficiency of the families who live on it.

In the 1970s, we made a leap in technology with the use of alcohol as fuel to offset the increase in the price of petroleum. When oil prices went down, the project was reduced; we stopped fighting for self-sufficiency in renewable fuel.

Even so, the commemorations for self-sufficiency in petroleum ignore the fact that this self-sufficiency is only temporary since greater production means faster depletion of our oil reserves.

Self-sufficiency in petroleum deserves to be commemorated; moreover, it must be understood and copied. Understood as the result of a long-term project and copied for other sectors of the society, the economy, the infrastructure.

We can be self-sufficient in abolishing poverty, in reducing inequality, in raising the minimum wage, in implanting a universal health-care system, in improving the quality of education for all our children.

It is enough that the goals be defined, that the society consider them as goals for self-sufficiency, and that the leaders give continuation to the programs from one administration to another. Just as we did with Petrobras.

Cristovam Buarque has a Ph.D. in economics. He is a PDT senator for the Federal District and was Governor of the Federal District (1995-98) and Minister of Education (2003-04). You can visit his homepage - www.cristovam.com.br - and write to him at This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .

Translated from the Portuguese by Linda Jerome - This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .



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Comments (73)Add Comment
Blah, blah, blah
written by Guest, May 03, 2006
Does anyone else get the impression that Buarque is all talk, with no concrete ideas on how to best pursue a goal? He always lists broad problems that many people know need to be addressed but he falls short of defining any specific starting blocks.
Only to get f**ked . . .
written by Guest, May 03, 2006
And no sooner do you reach self-sufficiency only to have the rug pulled out from under you by Bolivia. I hope all you good little Commies in Brazil are going to enjoy your new and improved, EXTRA costly gas bills. Not to worry though, the 20 billion (they'll embezzle that much for f**k sake) super pipeline stretching from Venezuela to Argentina is on the way . . . should be reaching you in about 15 YEARS!!!!!

I love how Lula, Chavez, Morales and Kirchner talk such a big game in regards to doing right by the people only to get screwed by the very fraternity of Pinkos with whom they were doing the circle jerk, reach around Rumba 3 months ago. . . You all deserve one another. LULA - Four more years, four more years!! - f**king Hilarious!!!
Dona Anna
written by Guest, May 03, 2006
Buarque articulatley defines the Brasilian social problems of poverty and lack of education. He accuratley points out that course of action to meet the "goals" of erradicating these issues are either impotent or non-existent. Does anyone have any other ideas about how to address these complicated, serious social issues which are ultimatley keeping Brasil from it's place of power on the 21st century world stage? Any country that ignores rampant poverty and lack of education of its own populace walks away from the powerful possiblities of it's own Human Capital. At least Buarque is taking the time to identify and articulate these issues. The problem must be faced before the problem can be solved.
Software anyone?
written by Guest, May 03, 2006
I can say with certainty from personal experience, Brazil also needs better training for Software Engineers, so that they are capable of building production-level quality software products for the Brazilian market. The current software engineers are often bright, and are capable of custom programming for indiviual clients, but as a rule they don't know how to build a software product for general use.

This is a topic that should be addressed along with the other science and technology issues.
Brazil technology ?
written by Guest, May 04, 2006


But the budget for technology is way way way too small !
Re: Software anyone?
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
I work as a software engineer here in the US (I am a Brazilian) and I agree with you. Some of our best software engineer are leaving Brazil to try the market in the US, Canada and Europe because we do not have a good structure for our profession in Brazil. Too bad!

I would rather live in Brazil than any other country in the world but I have no patience to wait for the day that our country will be finally, sufficiently developed to embrace high technology and science. We need more people with a love for technology and science in power. That would change Brazil to the right direction.
Re: Dona Anna
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
Some possible solutions (I imagine that some of the ideas would be very controversial):

1) Increase the time of military service mandatory from one year to two years and during that time, the soldiers would have to attend trade school provide by the army, navy, air forces, etc. The companies would have fiscal incentives to hire them afterwards.
2) When a kid is arrested for crimes and so cannot be prosecuted as an adult, instead of being just pilled up in a juvenile prison, they would have to be attending trade schools internally. Proper social guidance would be provided; social workers would guide the kids to find jobs in the local industry. The social workers would have to follow up with the progress of the kids until they reach adulthood. Also, companies would have generous incentives to hire those kids.
3) Create really attractive fiscal incentives for any company in the world willing to establish in the northeast of Brazil. They can bring their highly qualified professionals but they would have to hire most workers from the local area. Create international direct flights from Natal (strategically located geographically) to Florida, Europe, etc, to motivate tourism and exchange of professionals.
4) Reform our judiciary system because with the way things are now, we cannot curb crimes, embezzlements, corporation corruption, etc, effectively and harshly. By the way, reduce the age of accountability for crimes from 18 to 16 years old.
5) Create high level centers of Research in Science and Technology, outside Sao Paulo, and especially in the north and northeast of Brazil.
6) Stop looking to the countries such as Bolivia, Venezuela, Colombia, Argentina, etc as our allies for advance our country, they are in economical and political disarray (even worse than Brazil), I would rather turn to Australia, South Africa, and Asia for partnership in science and technology. The USA restricts the partnership too much for Brazil to gain anything.
7) Invest much more in education and QUALITY of education.
smilies/cool.gif And for God’s sake, fix those roads! A country cannot function well when the main infrastructure is so damaged.
Re: Re: Dona Anna
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
First, to the author... who f**king cares about being self sufficient in anything? What about developing some area of knowledge first, then thinking about being "self sufficient", if that's really necessary.

And to the poster. Man, haven't you heard about SUDAM and SUDENE? Were they not the type of incentive you are defending? Haven't you heard about CEFET-PR or UTFPR, a research center of excellence in Curitiba? Haven't you heard about the projects destined to reintegrate youngsters in Bahia, like Olodum, which receive funding from the government and companies that receive HUGE INCENTIVES to donate to them? Haven't you heard about CIEPs and many more stupid investments in education? DID YOU NOTICE THAT OUR COUNTRY IS GETTING EVEN WORSE DESPITE ADOPTING THE MEASURES THAT YOU DEFEND?

I'll tell you the "incentives" we need. We need THE GOVERNMENT TO GET OUT of our economy and lives, reduce taxes and debureaucratize the country, as well as a fast and effective legal system. Then we'll see companies investing in research, education and infra-structure at the same time, just like happened to many other countries in the world. The rest is just rhetorics of backwardness.

At least we agree in one point. Brazil should show the finger to Venezuela, Argentina and middle-eastern countries and align to really serious countries.

Edgar
http://liberdadenet.blogspot.com
...
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
1) Increase the time of military service mandatory from one year to two years and during that time, the soldiers would have to attend trade school provide by the army, navy, air forces, etc. The companies would have fiscal incentives to hire them afterwards.


Did you ever serve in the Brazilian army forces?Trade schools are already available in Brazil

Most the time kids loose one year of school to serve in the army forces.I waist one year in the army because some idiot there felt that would be better for me to learn how to use old army equipment

.They pay around 25 dollars a month and parents and relatives need to help soldiers with the extra expenses.

Schools like Senai, Senac, Public and private Technical school are available in big numbers in Brazil.

I got my diploma from Brazilian Public trade school and for the last 20 year found job in Brazil, Europe and USA.


A lot time a corporation does not hire a kid under 18 because he may be draft.
Re: To the both posters above
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
First, please let's take it easy.

I was just suggesting and yes, I know some of the projects now in Brazil. My point was to make them effective. You said correctly that they are all unsuccessful, well, and therefore the solution would make them effective. Isn’t it?

Actually, you also agreed with me about the legal system. So, we do agree in two fronts.

To the other poster: I was suggesting that the armed forces be more socially involved with educating people not to screw them up. I also agree with you, they are not helping the Brazilians. But then the point was to make them to participate better in the shaping of young Brazilians lives. Why would you not agree with me?

We need to improve our armed forces, to be more useful. Take as an example, from the US and Europeans military. They have a nice training package for anyone serving and if you smart enough (some people would say if you smart you would never enter the armed forces) you can profit from that. However, since in Brazil, it is compulsory to serve then let’s make it socially and economically sensible.

I presented only suggestions and I am not a politician. Let’s shape up some ideas. Everyone comes to this site to criticize and that is too easy to do. Now, let’s present some real ideas here or I will start agreeing with the non-Brazilians here that most of us are clueless on how to resolve our problems or, at least, try to.






Brazil technology !
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
It will never take off as long as
1) there is not more than 10 % of the population going in University. South Korea is 80 %.
2) TAXES, TAXES, TAXES. Brazil is not a wealthy country but charges 100 % as impoort taxes on computers. Therefore prices are twice as much expensives but with a lower revenue per citizen. This equals to computer prices being VERY VERY expensive comparatively.
Same for software.
Same for everything that is imported

Science and technology are heavy users of computers or softwares.

But Brazil wants always to build its own "everything" at a much higer price while it is available at a much lower price elsewhere.

Look in India, you have very large campuses in Bangalore, even paid by foreign corporations.

In Brazil as one reader mentionned, everything is controlled in a way or another by the government.
It is known worldwide that governments are the worst managers of all ! Simply because things are done with a political bias !

In November last year someone said :

Governments are not supposed to create wealth. They must provide a positive environment for entrepreneurs. Those who succeed will have to pay back something through taxes.

But that is not IMPORT taxes.

That is first education, education,education and education.
Then good environment without bureaucracy where Brazil escels.
Entrepreneurs are everywhere in the society. Same in research and science.

Simply provide the environment and they will bloom from all over the population.

Even in those who only got no education or only basic education, there are people who would have done good, had they received the possibility to do so.

Unfortunately in Brazil, your governments long term investments and projects mean....until the next election.

High Bureaucracy creates jobs, politically motivated but unproductive. It is known that civil servants are not so much productive. They get a life job, they cannot be fired and they get a huge pension at retirement.
Curiously they just got a nice salary increase. Guess why !

Vote buying exist in Brazil. Money and budgets are freed by you governments in the election year. Then budgets and money is tight again...until...the next election.

That is the long term planning.....Brazilian style.
...
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
The above poster has completely hit the point! His english may not be that good, but there is a guy who really understands what's going on around here in our country. My congratulations for him!

I would just add that taxes for winners should be as low as possible. They should not be penalized and no way should they finance losers, like Varig and Petrobrás. Yes, Petrobrás, for they don't have the guts to survive in a free market..
Re: Software anyone?
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
"I can say with certainty from personal experience, Brazil also needs better training for Software Engineers, so that they are capable of building production-level quality software products for the Brazilian market. The current software engineers are often bright, and are capable of custom programming for indiviual clients, but as a rule they don't know how to build a software product for general use."

Production quality software? What do you mean by that? I work in a multinational and I can tell you that it's not difficult to perform better than an american and our software is good.

Because of a few peeople that were in the right place in the right time with the right quantity of money made a lot of money it doesn't mean that every single software engineer in the US is a bilionnaire.

I believe the fact of having less "general use" software it's not due to "technical knowledge" but because of several factors, most of them related to money and local market being small or something else.
Re: Re: To the both posters above
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
I don't take it easy. This kind of rhetorics only serves the purpose of giving power to politicians like Mr. Buarque. They will do exactly as you are saying, and of course it will not work.

We brazilians need to understand that government is a coercitive entity. The relantionships with government are not voluntary, as they would be through free market. As such, we are obliged to do what they say. For instance, when you buy a software from Microsoft you had no software before and after the buy you have a piece of software, and you are supposedly better off now, without your money and a piece of useful software. You can choose not to buy from Microsoft and you may have some problems, like having to hire new people or having to cope with losing some features. Instead, you are obliged to pay taxes, and if you don't do so, you can go to jail or have several limitations to your possibilities of making business. When you pay taxes, specially in Brazil, you end up without your money and receive normally poor services in exchange, which are not really something useful for you most of time. The example is simple but I think it's good to explain how things work.

As for you, poster, remember that the United States have the most powerful army in the world and they do not have military draft, just as you have mentioned. I'll not consider your opinion as you are proposing to reduce even more the freedom of brazilian citizens.

What we need a free environment here if we want something of our lives and want our country to be something. We need the government to take care of government duties, and they are protecting individual rights and properties, only that, and let the rest of the people take care of education, health, research and so on, just like in the early United States, also having the army to buy technology from private companies, just like in the United States again.
Re:Re: Re: To the both posters above
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
"As for you, poster, remember that the United States have the most powerful army in the world and they do not have military draft, just as you have mentioned. I'll not consider your opinion as you are proposing to reduce even more the freedom of brazilian citizens."

First, you completely misunderstood me. I said, since we have a mandatory draft (we cannot afford to have it the American way) we should make it work for the individual and for the society.

Second, I live in the USA (yes, I am a legal immigrant with the full right of staying here forever if I want to) and I have seen good and bad in this country although our country is far worse.

Third, I have heard Americans here complaining much more than you think about their system and their government. My co-worker, which seats close to my cubicle in my job, is an American of many generations and, man, here is a whiner! When I drive my 15 miles everyday to work I listen to a talk show (the progressive radio station) and I hear things that make me nostalgic of our country. I am not bashing America or Brazil, actually I love both countries but I have eyes to see. By the way, I was shocked when I visited Canada (I have done that many times since I live close to the border) and saw people looking for cans in the garbage to buy food, yes, food.

Fourth, I agree with you about many things but I think that the best way to start helping our country is “quit complaining and start generating ideas”.

Fifth, I got my degree in Brazil, initially, then in the USA. In all the schools I have studied belonged to the government either in Brazil or USA. Who can afford private school? The answer is not as simple as you may think. There are many and many Americans unable to afford private universities so then when they graduate they are overwhelmed with a huge loan to pay back. Many file for bankruptcy. The internet is apparently available for you so do your search.

Sixth, the USA government is bigger, much bigger, than our government. However, the fact that the USA is much richer than Brazil is also because of a simple fact; they got far more immigrants from Europe than we did and from countries with very strong engineering mentality. That was very good for America and we are stuck with people that think that engineering is a job at some bank or public agency.

Finally, I visited your site and I read many things there. I believe that you are doing a good job defending freedom but how it is time to present SOLUTIONS and not criticism. The time is over to whine and complain.

Re:Re: Re: To the both posters above
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
1 - Why can't we have voluntary draft in Brazil? What's so different here?
2 - Great for you. I didn't get my permanent resident visa before 9/11 and my government actions makes it harder for me to get it. At least we agree, Brazil is far worse.
3 - Well, there are less people in those conditions in the United States than in Canada. Actually, in the United States this phenomena is restricted to specific states, correct? Strange, isn't it? The United States has a freer economy, with less mandatory security for the citizens than in Canada. And there is more poverty in Canada... anyway, with so high income taxes (not as high as Brazil, ok) and the problems that they have in their wars, I agree the americans have reasons to complain.
4 - I'm presenting an idea here. Perhaps it just sounds too radical for you, but certainly they wouldn't for the founding fathers times.
5 - That is a good point. You can see in my blog that I do mention the United States as an example for almost everything, but not everything. And the government of the United States has not been doing a good job on agriculture (as you can see in my blog), steel and some other protected industries. That includes education. The presence of state is too big and there is too much regulamentation, which makes the costs go up and make them unbearable for too many people. Ireland has established a freer system, with more private schools and succeeded. And South Korea has better education levels than the United States. Just search around there. In http://www.capmag.com you can see now and then an article relating to the handicap of the education in the United States when compared to other countries.
6 - Well, I live in the South, and there are plenty of germans, italians, polish and japanese around here. All of them with good engineering mentality, not much different of what you are supposed to find in America. No, that's not the point. And don't confuse a big government with big numbers. The american government has much more specific tasks and its power is limited to act inside the country while the brazilian government is present in virtually every activity in the country.

Finally, thanks for the compliment. And again, I'm pointing the solutions: less government and more freedom.
Re:Re: Re: To the both posters above
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
"6 - Well, I live in the South, and there are plenty of germans, italians, polish and japanese around here. All of them with good engineering mentality, not much different of what you are supposed to find in America. No, that's not the point. And don't confuse a big government with big numbers. The american government has much more specific tasks and its power is limited to act inside the country while the brazilian government is present in virtually every activity in the country. "

Well, this is a point we need to discuss. I am a grandson of Italians and Portuguese immigrants. They took to Brazil a great spirit of hard working mentality. None died in poverty but none died rich either, they reached a level of middle class, comfortable and dignifying. My wife's family is different. They came from Italy and generated a lot of wealth through industrialization (it was a big company in Sao Paulo). If we had more people like my wife's family then today we would be far more industrialized.

In general, the USA got the best of immigration from Europe, especially from Germany and England. Many good engineers and scientists chose to migrate to America. Indeed, they had much bigger pool of immigrants and the America got the best from Europe.

You told that you live in the south and where Brazil is more developed? Take Sao Paulo as an example, it took a massive immigration from Europe and look what is Sao Paulo compared to the other states. Bingo!

How do we change our precarious mentality now? We need more education, but not only by increasing people in school. We need quality education, good education at all levels.

How do you propose, by the way, to reduce the influence of the government in our country and give the control to the people? What political party in Brazil promotes what you are defending?







Re:Re: Re: To the both posters above
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
Well, the South is more developed than the rest of the country, that's for sure, and my family also had big industry here, coming from Austria and Italy. I agree with you that those people made a difference around here but, compare Southern Brazil against the most developed countries, and compare Southern Brazil against the parts of the United States that were occupied by those immigrants and you'll know what I am talking about. And also, Brazil was freer in their times than in ours, and that's why we are lagging today. I mean, Curitiba, where I live, is a poor city compared to virtually every american city, despite having some international companies originated from here and world class engineers. The same happens to São Paulo, though the latter is a little bit less poor. Meanwhile, in Northeast we had those colonels who are still in power today and took over the country by now. Again, that's not the point.

About the migration of those engineers to America, particularly in the 20th century, they chose to migrate because America offered them better conditions to prosper, just as your case probably are. And as long as they remain being what they are, they'll continue attracting talents from all over the world. That happens in every rich country, and happened to Europe after the 2nd World War too.

Well, no political party promotes what I am defending in Brazil. Actually we just have leftist parties around here, and you probably know that. The difference is that PSDB allows a little bit more freedom than PT. I mean, brazilians have to be conscious of what makes a nation rich and stop voting in Lulas and other leftist candidates or we need someone in power to adopt such measures. Well, it's hard and I don't see how this could be achieved at the moment, but informing people is important. And that does not necessarily comes from formal education.
RE: Re: Dona Anna
written by Guest, May 04, 2006
"6) Stop looking to the countries such as Bolivia, Venezuela, Colombia, Argentina, etc as our allies for advance our country, they are in economical and political disarray (even worse than Brazil), I would rather turn to Australia, South Africa, and Asia for partnership in science and technology. The USA restricts the partnership too much for Brazil to gain anything."

I agree that the countries that you name are probably not good partners for advancing Brazil, but why do you think that "The USA restricts the partnership too much for Brazil to gain anything."? My experience has been the opposite. Please educate me.
Re: Re: Software anyone?
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
Please don't take what was intended as constructive criticism as personal criticism. I have great respect for the individual abilities of some the Brazilian software engineers that I have worked with.

However, the fact that you need to ask what "production quality software" is illustrates my point.

My post was not about money. You may note that there was no mention of money in it.

I've been working with Brazilian software engineers since 1992, so I think that I know what I'm talking about. I've worked for various large and very large software companies in the U.S. and also for these companies in various other countries.

In the U.S., software product engineering is generally not an academic topic. It is something that is taught by the software companies as part of their "corporate culture", after the software engineers have completed their basic education and training. Producing a software product is more than just programming. It is the result of a complex, formal process.

The problem for Brazil is that that there are few, if any, companies that impart this type of education to their employees. Therefore, if the local software industry is to bootstrap itself to provide software products that are specific to Brazil, software product development must become an academic topic.

I've offered to teach this topic in Brazil to help with the advancement of the technology, but so far the offer has come to nothing.
Re:Re: Re: Software anyone?
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
"However, the fact that you need to ask what "production quality software" is illustrates my point. "

WHAT!?

I asked because it makes no sense. NOT ALL COMPANIES IN US ARE CMM5, DID YOU KNOW THAT?

The company I work for has CMM, AND WE FOLLOW A GROUP OF PRACTICES FOR DEVELOPING SOFTWARE.

What you are saying is not true. I work with a lot of americans, and I would say they aren't worried about anything of that, not the developers, it starts from management and up when they need to be certified in something.

Why american think they are so special? Most of your jobs could be replaced by an Indian or a Chinese and would make no difference, for you to have an idea of how common and ordinary those tasks are.
Re: Re:Re: Re: Software anyone?
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
Your response just proved my point yet again. Certification has nothing to do with it.

There's nothing that special about most American programmers. As you pointed out, there are many good programmers in the world. It's the methodology that is important, and teamwork. Of course, creativity is a big plus. In order to make complex software products, we as software developers have to "check our ego at the door".

Take a look at where most of the software products come from.

Oh, and shouting isn't necessary. I'm trying to help, not to ridicule.

Conditions prior to education and resear
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
In order for someone to go to school, and later, make research, the person must be alive. Everyone agrees with me on that, ok? And not only alive, it's better that the person is not hungry, hence eating at least 3 times a day is a pre-condition to any educational or research development.

But what does that have to do with education and research? Not much, but let's see how are those markets. In Brazil and the United States as well, farms are run by private entepreneurs. The transport of food is made with trucks belonging to private companies or individuals too, and distribution in the cities are done mostly through private companies. In Brazil, governments run some silos and some centers for redistribution, and the latter gives room to private individuals looking for profit to have their distribution businesses. We always listen about food getting rotten in government silos and problems with hygiene in those distribution centers but we rarely hear about it happening in private silos or distributors. Hunger is not a big problem in Brazil. Obesity is a much bigger problem. And what we hear about the countries that have state-run farms is that they use to have hunger very frequently.

Food is very important, virtually everyone has to eat everyday, otherwise people starve. It's not like education or research, things that you can be distant of them for 3 years and you'll not die because of that, you'll just have to catch up. And in education and research, we both see private schools in Brazil often doing more than government schools. Some technical private schools get to make mediocre students who didn't pass a government school compete in equal conditions against government school graduates. Research is not done that much in Brazil, but there are centers like IBM in Hortolândia and Mandriva in Curitiba, among some others, that produce much more useful technologies and research than those state-run universities around here.

If we let fooding, which is way too important to keep us alive in the hands of the private sector, why should we let education and research be in the hands of the government? The United States themselves went into the direction of state education and are now lagging behind some countries that were much poorer less than 40 years ago. Isn't it evident that government is not a good manager and should be kept out of businesses as much as possible?
RE: Re: Dona Anna
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
"I agree that the countries that you name are probably not good partners for advancing Brazil, but why do you think that "The USA restricts the partnership too much for Brazil to gain anything."? My experience has been the opposite. Please educate me."

Some time ago, if I remember well, Brazil wanted to buy a supercomputer for scientific research from Cray or IBM (not sure which). The US government blocked the deal because they were thinking that Brazil would use the technology to advance its nuclear program.

What help can the US provide to Brazil when they have austere foreign policies in that area, i.e. assistance to advance high technology?

I believe that the almost childish head of Lula in thinking that we can get partnership with our neighbors in South America is preventing us to turn to some other more serious nations (not necessarily the US of EU) for better opportunity. The next president needs to look to some other nations which have the same aspiration as Brazil in developing technology and science. I have mentioned possible candidates such as South Africa, Australia, Indonesia, New Zealand, China and India.

If you have better idea or different opinion please share with us.
Re:Re: Re: To the both posters above
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
About the migration of those engineers to America, particularly in the 20th century, they chose to migrate because America offered them better conditions to prosper, just as your case probably are. And as long as they remain being what they are, they'll continue attracting talents from all over the world. That happens in every rich country, and happened to Europe after the 2nd World War too.

Yes, I know your point, however, the industrial revolution started in England in the 19th hundred and when the immigration started to pick up in Europe the Americans already had the good engineering mentality which facilitated attracting the people with the same tendencies. That would make easier for people in Europe to decide; “we go to Brazil or we go to the US”. It is possible to get a list of famous engineers and scientists from Europe who chose the US as the new home during the gold phase of immigration (early 20th century).

The density of immigration, mainly from Europe, has a huge impact on the economy. Although this may be just coincidence, the number of immigrants to the US is 11 to 12 times greater than to Brazil and the US has an economy 11 or 12 times bigger.

Why the Americans attracted some many immigrants? I am not a historian but I believe that religion freedom in America, in the beginning attracted millions of new immigrants.

The other day I was driving in a neighborhood here where I live and my wife and I were counting how many different church denominations were present; Church of Christ, of God, of the Son of God, Mormon, Baptist, Bible Church, etc, and etc. I bet I could find a church of the Great Scott. Do not take me wrong, this is actually great. That is the sprit of the America since the very beginning and that made a huge difference.

In Brazil, we are now liberating from the monopoly of the Catholic Church but just now. The fact that we were (are) predominately catholic prevented us to get far more immigrants and, of course, many non-catholic immigrants took the risk of going to Brazil and they suffered social persecutions by the predominant religion. Those are not original ideas by any means. I hope someone with History background can either correct or support me here.

How to shape the future for Brazil now since we did not get the good start?
Sorry but.......
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
No offense o the people from the south of Brazil but the true description about been developed should go to the “sudeste” (mainly the Sao Paulo State) of Brazil.

If you take the BR 116 Highway going to the south of Brazil you will see that most of the places are cover with farms and small towns

To compare the economical power of the “sudeste” of Brazil with the south is just silly.




Southeast IS NOT south
Re:Re: Re: To the both posters above and
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
The last poster put it wright... and as for the engineering mentality, we have more germans here in the south than in the southeast. Curitiba is even known as a german city and Santa Catarina as a german state, due to the high number of germans in these places. And germans are known to have very strong engineering mentalities, much more than the portuguese and italians who form São Paulo, for instance.

And if we consider race as something important, why are there some many black millionaires in the United States? There are lots of blacks in the middle class, and most of the blacks in the United States live better than any middle class brazilian. And that considering that not so long ago blacks were barred in buses and in some universities. There are now a lot of black talents in engineering and medicine in the United States, and lots of artists. They created rock and roll, hip hop, jazz, we have several movies made by black people, all of that before the affirmative actions. Now, look at Africa. Only wars among tribal chiefs, a complete disaster with plenty of hunger and wasted people. Not many talents appear from there, do you remember someone who is not a soccer player? What about an african middle class? What happened there and why are they so different?

You touched my point. The immigrants went to Europe because of freedom. And America didn't feature only religious freedom, it featured freedom of all kinds. For some people, religious freedom was important, for some others wealth, the priorities vary. But the fact is that America attracted those people because of pre-existing factors, and freedom is the most important of all.
Re:Re: Re: To the both posters above and
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
No race issue was considered in my argument only cultural aspects.

RE: Sorry but.......
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
Technically you are right but the term south was used here loosely.
Sorry but
written by Guest, May 05, 2006


Again the only point that I was making is that the "Sudeste" is not the South


South is Rio Grande Do Sul, Parana And Santa Catariana


Southeast is Sao Paulo,Rio de Janeiro ,Espirito Santos and Minas Gerais.


Plus people from the southeast do not have the same habits that people from the south.


Southeast is more a blend of the race from different corners of the world.


You go around Sao Paulo and you find people from ever corner of the world.

Is not question, that the Southeast-Sudeste is more dynamic that the south of Brazil.



Sorry to say but people from the Southeast do not call themselves “people from the South”


No need of any association with Europe people. Southeast people have a culture of their own build by hundred of year of appreciation from others people culture and customs.



In any moment in my world I’m saying bad things about people from the south.

I do have good friends there



Re: Sorry but
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
Ok, here goes another question. The previous poster cited that he was talking about culture, not about race, but that falls to the same question. The engineering mentality of people in South and Southeast did not make much out of their own country. Instead, the japanese who didn't have such a mentality until the 19th century became an engineering power in the 20th century.

I agree that some cultures show more entepreneurship than others, and ok, you can see that happening in Brazil. But my point is that people with different cultures learn the habits of those who succeed and can also achieve success in a free environment, far more easier than where they have their freedom restrained, as America shows to us. Take away freedom and those entepreneurs are not likely to have that much success, as Brazil show us.

Finally, I doubt that southern brazilians are less dynamic than southeasteners. The fact of some big brazilian companies having appeared in the South, like Weg, Perdigão, O Boticário, Marcopolo, among others make it evident that this is not true. And southern Brazil is just slightly poorer than the Southeast.
sorry but
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
I’m sure you can find corporations with some success in the south of Brazil

The world Dynamic comes from the reason that if you go around the Southeast you found thousands and thousands successful corporations doing business in this area.

The same you cannot say for the south.


Most of the GDP for the states from the south comes from agriculture

475 Corporations of the Fortune 500 you have around

85% is located the main Brazilian office in the southeast


I do appreciate the people of the south but is not even a fair game to compare the southeast with the south.


The Southeast is the center of Brazilian economy.


Idaho maybe nice but the money is in NY and California

The south of Brazil maybe is ok but the money is in Southeast.

RE: RE: Re: Dona Anna
written by Guest, May 05, 2006
None of the countries that you mentioned would be able to provide supercomputers to Brazil as of this moment.

Here's a link to an article that was written about IBM wanting to sell a supercomputer to Embrauer:

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/pubs/editorials/1990/braziliraq-bomb.htm

That was 1990.

This is now. Did you know that right now Petrobras owns four Cray supercomputers?

The U.S. still has export restrictions on military technologies, but does not have export restrictions any other kinds of technologies.

I would suggest that you should be open to all possible sources of technology, and pick and choose from whatever is the best that is available, regardless of which country is supplying it.

By the way, I once had to export a specialized piece of computer equipment to Brazil from the U.S., which required an export permit because it contained encryption technology. It took two days to get the export permit from the U.S. Government, and more than six months to get the import permit from Brazilian Government.

If you want to speed up the development of technology in Brazil by importing technology from other countries, and by doing cooperative research with other countries, then a good place to start might be with reducing the bureaucracy that controls the transfer of technology.

RE: sorry but
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
"The south of Brazil maybe is ok but the money is in Southeast. "

True and that reinforces my point. The Southeast got a lot more of European immigrants (among others) with a strong engineering, technical and entrepreneurship mentality. Thanks to that Sao Paulo is a superpower compared to anywhere else in Latin America. Of course, I need to add the Japanese immigrants to the list since they took to Brazil their good sense of entrepreneurship to the Southeast and South.

Although I defend the need of free enterprise and a deep reform in our economic policy, I believe that the lack of more freedom is not the main reason why we do not have a strong engineering attitude. We needed more immigrants from Europe (and Japan) and a continuing flux of immigrants.

This however has absolutely nothing to do with race, to make things clear here. What I am saying is that the Europeans had a strong technical and scientific aptitude. The English, the Germans, the Dutch and the French were the most prominent followed by the Italians. Look the History books on science and engineering and count the names of great scientists, engineers and inventors from Europe!

Santos-Dumont, for example, was a son of an immigrant from France. His father had that engineering European mentality which Alberto inherited. Thanks to that influence he went to France to study and succeed brilliantly.

Finally, I would like to say that I am with Edgar here, freedom is fundamental to any society to truly prosper scientifically and technologically. China will have to seize more political, social and entrepreneurship sooner or latter if they want to continue to compete and prosper scientifically and technologically in the world. I believe that things are already changing in China at the moment even if at slow pace for now.
...
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
"If you want to speed up the development of technology in Brazil by importing technology from other countries, and by doing cooperative research with other countries, then a good place to start might be with reducing the bureaucracy that controls the transfer of technology. "

Granted, I agree with you. And thank you for the links.
Re: RE: sorry but
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
Well, I guess we have almost reached a consensus here. But remember, southern brazilian population is nearly 100% constitued by the immigrants who you cited and that's more than you can find in the Southeast. Even so, the region is still poorer.

Freedom is what shapes those entepreneurship and engineering mentalities. Take a look at the world before 1400 A.D. The best scientists and inventions came from the muslims and the chinese, that started to change by the end of the Middle Ages, when they gained more freedom than those other people. The european culture changed.

Ok, I agree that the United States have reaped their rewards with european immigrants, but they would not have attracted those europeans if they weren't wealthier and freer than the countries of those people who came to America. And wealth derives from freedom, not from help and not from restricting people's rights.

In addition, freedom is not exactly an abstract conception, it's actually a broad concept. You see, we have today something that we can call an american culture, that shows high entepreneurship and high engineering mentalities. There was a poster in another forum who mentioned he was opening a business in Brazil, investing US$ 100,000 and quit it because he couldn't open a bank account. That was due to the legal system here and restricted his freedom. He changed his mind and he's not thinking about opening a business here for sometime now. That's lack of freedom and the mentality of this foreign guy changed from entepreneur to passive regarding to Brazil. He may even stumble upon other good opportunities in Brazil which could be successful but he'll tend to discard them at a first glance.

I also have witnessed several cases of people who opened businesses here, took more than 6 months to obtain the licenses to function, paid a lot of taxes, paid one wage for the employee and another for the government and when they closed their businesses because they did not succeed they had to pay the government first. And they were technology companies, the ones that pay more taxes and have less freedom in Brazil. I myself think many times before hiring someone here. That's lack of freedom.

Now, let's get back to Southeast and South. Southeast was colonized earlier than South and had a huge economical growth during the "Café com Leite" period, where São Paulo and MInas Gerais dominated the scene. By that time, those states had a considerable amount of freedom when compared to other states and that made people flock to them from both from abroad, both from the rest of the country. The foreign colonization of Southern Brazil began later to gain more force, by about the 1950's. Big companies appeared here, but they were not as successful as southeastern ones. This period was less free than the previous periods for paulistas and mineiros. And during the 1970s, when Brazil perhaps enjoyed the freer period in history, Southern region developed even faster than Southeastern region, reducing the gap between them. But if we look at our regions now, we can see that a reduced number of businesses are appearing and most of them are failing miserably, despite the underdevelopment that we have here and the market to explore. In fact, we are losing businesses successful in other times. And again, that's due to lack of freedom.

Well, the text is long but that's a complicated issue. Hope it makes my point clear. Your vision is not wrong about immigrants, I agree it has an impact, I just consider freedom much more important. And in order to make our country to have good education and research we need just that, more freedom. No need of convoluted government policies.
Immigrant theory ? BULLs**t !!!
written by Guest, May 06, 2006

Does Japan have a lot of EU immigrants ?

Does South Korea have a lot of EU immigrants ?

NOOOOOOOOOO !

They "simply" have long term investments in EDUCATION, R&D.
They have 80 % of people with University degrees.

And Brazil ? 10 % !
Sorry 10,6 % and very little investments in Education and R&D when compared to the GDP equivalent of other countries.

I just remind you that Japan and south Korea were not richer than Brazil 50 years ago !

And curiously both countries are not gifted with minerals, oil or whatever while Brazil is !

Brazil has just been good because of what its land contains : size first, climate second, minerals third.
And Brazil by having never invested in knowledge, just produce BASIC commodities, without value added technology.
Then through knowledge transfer and innovations ALL developed countries just buy what you can produce and nothing else !

Developed countries, like the EU have curiously no more oil or minerals than Japan, less land than Brazil per capita, harsher climate for agriculture.

Why do so many brazilians with high education go to the USA or the EU to find a job ?
Exactly for the reasons explained above : NO BUDGET !
Brazilian budgets go elsewhere but no one knows where !
Your infrastructure is more than poor, your taxes are very high.

Simply stated : Brazil has been totally mismanaged with wrong economic models by the various governments in the last 100 years !

No later than 3 years ago your brightest future as per your government was in Soya and cattle/pig/chicken industries.
Today both are struggling despite a good world economy.
Now your brightest future is in sugar cane for ethanol !!!!


Whoaaa ! Not very high in technology, no need for millions of citizens in Universities but millions of new slaves guaranteed since 40 % of your sugar cane industry is manually harvested !!!!

What will you invent as your brightest future when new technologies in fuel cell (powered with hydrogen) or whatever will come downstream for cars ? It already started !

Will you make ethanol your National beverage, replacing cachaça ?

Come on !
Re: Immigrant theory ? BULLs**t !!!
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
That's exactly my point. I know many germans here and some jews who are considered to be "Classe C" or lower middle class brazilians. I even met once a canadian english teacher who found her financial ruin when she came to live in Brazil because she found the country wonderful and ended up running out of money. Those groups of people have better chances because of their entrepreneurial and engineering mentality, but the fact is that Brazil buries everyone's chances. Our government is always planning the economy and keep commiting mistakes, while keeping ridiculous taxes and regulations that burden brazilian businessmen, in fact discouraging entrepreneurship. Today Brazil looks like the colbertist France. In comparison, groups that do not show much entrepreneurship in their original countries, like polish and africans have good entrepreneurs and engineers in the United States, a freer country. In addition, we can see the differences between ossies and wessies. Take Berlin for instance, there is a huge difference on wealth and skills between the two differente groups. AND THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE!

P.S.: just let me correct my english spelling. I have written 'entepreneur' instead of 'entrepreneur' several times before.
South Korea / Brazil
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
South Korea, spends one-third of what it spends on education on pensions. In Brazil, the situation is the opposite, with pensions representing two and a half times the amount spent on education.
The biggest problem is the structural deficit of the pension system which affects everything else. Over the last 18 years Brazil has tripled pension costs as a proportion of GDP - from 4% in 1987 to 12% in 2005, including pensions from the state INSS scheme and the public employees’ scheme. There is no parallel anywhere else in the world. At the same time, the 1988 Constitution increased the links between the revenues and costs and the transfer of resources to the states and municipalities. The result is that when you add the interest rates account, these obligatory costs represent 33% of GDP. That is why today Brazil has a tax burden of 37% of GDP and spends 40% of GDP in the public sector. As our per capita income rules out collecting amounts of this size in any rational way, there has been a considerable deterioration in the tax system since 1988, leading to inefficiency, tax dodging and corruption.
Brazil has created social policies which, to quote the American historian Peter Lindert turn Robin Hood´s ideas around. The poor pay indirect, regressive taxes to finance the pensions of those who are not poor and provide free higher education for the rich, which worsens the concentration of income. It is difficult to gain a consensus on how to confront these situations. Many Congressmen depend on the votes of older people and reciprocate by supporting parliamentary amendments in favor of this group. At the same time, nepotism is sometimes used to fill public positions.

Sources : interview of Mailson da Nobrega, November 2005

You can see that government money is going elsewhere than it should be !
Interests rates and governments pensions eat up most of the government budget.
Then investing in education, infrastructure, R&D, technology is not even a third priority for brazilian governments.

To that\'s exactly my point !
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
Sorry but what you say is inacurate.
Eastern European countries, be it East Germans, Poland or just name a country are in most cases HIGHLY educated.
Even more than the EU countries.
And as a proof of it is that these people tend to easily find a good paying job in the EU or in the USA.
They are highly educated but were unable to develop in their own country, because these countries while Communists, did not provide the budget to these people to develop.
In France for instance you have companies that travel to Poland to hire highly educated people and offer them a good job in France.
Another trend in these Eastern european countries by now is also to get the highest education possible and later find a job elsewhere. But this will be a short term trend, because their income are growing very fast in their own countries. While until 10 years ago a doctor made only $100/300.-, now they make 10 times this amount in their own country.

Eastern european countries developed more in 10/15 years than Brazil in 30 or 40 years !

Again and again, everything starts with EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION.
Re: To that\'s exactly my point !
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
No, no, no. You completely confused it. Read carefully, I NEVER SAID THEY ARE POORLY EDUCATED. Never.

What you are pointing just strenghtens my point of view. Their mentality and education did not suffice to make their countries developed and to throw them away from poverty under communism. The fact that they used to find better options in freer countries, and still find, is an evidence of that. And as for the ossies, they used to have poorer skills when compared to wessies, DESPITE THEIR HIGH LEVEL OF EDUCATION. In addition, even now they are not so good on entrepreneurial spirit. Of course, the younger generations suffer less of these problems, for they have caught up a lot already. That's exactly what I mean.

We also agree on one point, european countries developed very fast after the fall of communism and way much faster than Brazil. Some countries like Poland and Croatia already have much better conditions than Brazil, and Croatia was at war not even 10 years ago. Why are they performing so well now?

Again I repeat, EDUCATION IS VERY IMPORTANT, but without freedom you don't get anything. I repeat FREEDOM, FREEDOM, FREEDOM in the very first place.
...
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
Just to add, the gap between eastern europeans and western europeans is much smaller now, but still exists. And eastern europeans tend to be cheaper labor than western europeans.
...
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
I'm the one that said the southeast is not the south


Sorry but the southeast it is what it is not because of any Europe’s engineering immigrants.


Southeast it is what it is because is a place that receive people from ""all places of the world"" and give then chance (much more when you “compare” with south) for people
to make a living.,


Southeast is more open to people and ideas when compare with the south.



The same you cannot say about the south.



If you go around Sao Paulo you find tons of chineses,koreans, South Americans, and Brazilians doing good.


The southeast is more inclusive when you compare with the south.


The History of Sao Paulo explain that mentality.

The same basically America idea
If you are good and know how to do the job we don't care if you are missing an eye or arm.
...
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
Hey above poster. Have you ever been to Curitiba or Porto Alegre? Didn't you notice that there is a huge number of restaurants run by chinese in those cities? Have you ever been to Santa Catarina's country side to see what you will find? Maringá and the big japanese colony? Londrina and the english, italians, germans, japanese and so on? Stop being so proud of your São Paulo, it's a very poor state when compared to the United States, EU, even the Eastern European countries, Southeast Asia, Australia and many more. Yes, the South is poor, but São Paulo is not much better. And you are likely to find more people from more different places of the world in the South.
...
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
Yes, I know Curitiba and Porto Alegre.


I went from Sao Paulo to Porto Alegre via BR 116 Highway.



Most of the people, that you are talking about work in the agriculture business.

Sao Paulo in the other hand is a blend of Industrial and agriculture


No sure why you said that I shouldn’t been proud of my State.



Remember Sao Paulo is a State and not a Country.

To compare Sao Paulo dynamic industrial complex with any east European state is just silly.

I never said that Sao Paulo is equal or better then the USA.

The same way the United States is a bigger power when you compare with Sao Paulo,

Sao Paulo is a much bigger power when you compare with the south.


I said that the same principals of open market and business found in America you can find in Sao Paulo and southeast region

Some facts about the southeast when you compare with the south

Main Brazilian Stock market

Bovespa – Location – Sao Paulo

The 3 biggest Brazilian TV network

Record- Sao Paulo,Globo- Rio de Janeiro Bandeirantes-Sao Paulo SBT Sao Paulo


He 3 biggest cars makers in the world
General Motor’s location - Sao Paulo ABC area
Ford – Sao Paulo ABC area

If you are from the south you have to travel to the southeast to get a visa to get into the USA.



I can go here all day but I know that you know that the southeast is a much bigger powerhouse when you compare with the south.


Again my friend, I do enjoy going to the south and visiting some friends but the money is in the southeast. and this is a fact


.






















freedom freedom freedom
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
You have freedom !

But you have also bureaucracy.bureaucracy,bureaucracy.
You also have taxes, taxes,taxes-
You have High interest rates, high interests rates and high interest rates !
You have high government pensions, high government pensions, high government pensions.

Stupid question :
What is left for basic and middleEducation, University education, infrastructure, R&D, technology ??????


VERY LITTLE....by simple basic maths !!!!

You have a minimal basic education overall, low % of University and higher degree, minimal investments in technology and R&D.
All these numbers are of course compared to the GDP of your country.

Re: freedom freedom freedom
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
No, we don't have freedom. Don't confuse democracy with freedom. High taxes mean that you are OBLIGED to give a part of your work to the government. High pension funds means someone is OBLIGED to transfer his/her wealth to someone else. Bureaucracy works to make you OBLIGED to follow certain laws to make things work. It's not just about the freedom to walk on the streets, it's freedom to make business and have no one else to say what you can and, most of all, what you cannot do. When one is legally OBLIGED to do something, he's not free to do it. Simple.

Ok, the investments in education, research, university, etc. are minimal. I agree with you. But the best way to make them go up is by giving more freedom to the people, like Ireland, South Korea and the United States themselves have shown us. As many other countries show, government policies are mostly inefficient when compared to the measures taken by private individuals or companies.
Re: freedom freedom freedom
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
Then we have a problem. Here in the US I pay, income taxes, sales taxes, basic service taxes, property taxes, Medicare, social security taxes, etc.

It is not accurate to relate less taxes with more freedom, this is gray area. I see that you defend the idea that taxes restrict freedom.

Of course, Brazil has much more taxes than many other countries in the world, Those taxes are unproductive and act as a economical -retardant in Brazil.

Take Sweden as an example, though. They have high taxes but a very good health plan, educational system, free public transportation, and a comfortable retirement plan without much concerns. If you get sick and you are poor you would rather better be in Sweden than Brazil, USA or even Canada.

However, if you say that excessive bureaucracy is our biggest problem in Brazil than I agree absolutely.

The role of the government is to foment better education, interfere less with the private entrepreneurship, promote a better understand of the science and technology in our society, create a better scientific and engineering environment in the public schools, etc.

I hope that Mr. Buarque is following this thread here. Take note Mr. Buarque:

Less bureaucracy, less government , more and better education, and better science and technology .
Re:Re: freedom freedom freedom
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
No, no, no. Bureaucracy and taxes have to do with economical freedom. That's freedom. Read the texts of Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams at http://www.capmag.com.

Finally, you are defending more freedom, but I would just correct you that the role of state is to protect individual rights and property rights, as well as freedom of speech. That's not different of the idea of the Founding Fathers. The state does not need to promote anything, just ensure that those rights are respected. The United States became the biggest world power because of that. And if you pay your 20% in income tax today in US, that's because you have less freedom than the americans of the early 20th century, who were paying just 4% of the GNP in taxes, ok?

As for Sweden, there are statistics that point that about 40% of swedish homes would be considered poor in America, and they are abandoning the welfare state by now. Take a look at the statistics here: http://www.opinionjournal.com/...=110005242
Re:Re: freedom freedom freedom
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
"The state does not need to promote anything, just ensure that those rights are respected. The United States became the biggest world power because of that"

Sorry but that is not true.

What about NASA, American National Laboratories, NIST, US Geological Survey, State Universities. etc and etc here in the US? The list is long. The government here promotes science education, hire scientists and engineers, and foment research and development.

In the company I work for here we depend on government contracts . The US federal and state government pour money in many companies such as Boeing and Microsoft. So, no, that is not true at all.

The state can and should promote science and technology and should create the environment that make the generation of high tech companies a possibility.

Our problem is the way our government operates.








Re:Re:Re: freedom freedom freedom
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
Ok, but how was it in the 19th and 20th centuries in America? How was it before the 2nd World War? Most of those government agencies that you point were created or strenghtened during and after the 1st and 2nd World Wars, after the US had become a very powerful country. Why didn't they need those agencies to become powerful? That greatly explains why you and the americans are paying so high taxes now.

I only agree with research funding for military purposes, for that falls into one of the few duties that government has, that's defense of the society against internal and external enemies. The idea is not mine, it's Founding Fathers'.

The problem is not how government operates, the problem is the government itself. Economics should not be an affair of state.
...
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
Well, it's too bad an educated man can't "be" anything, as Dostoevsky puts it, which in turn makes the educated man no more than a crimple within the economic system. One would think the european union had a bright future, with a population nearing 1 billion, yet it was crippled by the very education we cite so much, with a even aging population, a population that won't sustain the American dream for much longer, the final racionalization of the frenzy so necessary to our society. Maybe we will get past this industrial age, and all our efforts, plunder and population will be justified by this otherwise unattainable glory, but capitalism and education does not compute.
Re:Re:Re: freedom freedom freedom
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
I believe that the support and encouragement of science and technology by the government in the US started just after the federal republic was created. However, I am not a historian although we could search the Internet for details.

My BS theory of immigration, as it was called, is based on facts and it is not original, it is not mine. However, it does make sense to me.

True, education, without economical growth, does not necessarily secure employment or wealth. However, macroeconomics must be managed by a common body and the best candidate in my opinion continuing to be the government of the country.

Even capitalism must know its boundaries.

At this point I believe that our evil is our government and a very politically passive people.
Re:Re:Re: freedom freedom freedom
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
I believe that the support and encouragement of science and technology by the government in the US started just after the federal republic was created. However, I am not a historian although we could search the Internet for details.

My BS theory of immigration, as it was called, is based on facts and it is not original, it is not mine. However, it does make sense to me.

True, education, without economical growth, does not necessarily secure employment or wealth. However, macroeconomics must be managed by a common body and the best candidate in my opinion continuing to be the government of the country.

Even capitalism must know its boundaries.

At this point I believe that our evil is our government and a very politically passive people.
Re:Re:Re: freedom freedom freedom
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
On this topic we are not going to achieve any consensus here. I stay with data. Hong Kong has become a very rich land with the principle of non-intervention from the part of the government. Germany was rebuilt after the 2nd World War following Hayek principles and showed better life standards than the US in the early 1980s.

Your theory of immigration is not incorrect, but it does not describe the whole truth. The bigger the role of the government, the poorer the country, as history shows us.

The boundaries of capitalism are the boundaries of individual rights and private property, as well as the protection of the society specially against external enemies. This way, I do support the US embargo on Cuba, Iraq and Iran, which were not friendly nations, I do support the acts of americans against japanese and germans in the 2nd World War and I do not support the Sarbanes-Oxley act, the IMF, the Federal Reserve titles that caused a huge debt on americans, the Chrysler backup in the 1970s and the decision of the Supreme Court in the Kelo vs. New London case. The last were acts of the government that are not in accordance to the property and individual rights principles, for they generally made groups to be prviliged at the expense of others, be them government bodies or private individuals or companies.

Hope that makes my point of view clear.
...
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
The support and encouragement of science in the US government really comes from its foundation. That's right. The founding fathers were both military and science men. But the role of the US government was not to finance scientific production. Instead, a system of patents was created since the very early stages of the United States. By 1790, Thomas Jefferson already created a patent system to ensure intellectual property rights. Along with the property rights, that boosted american economy and science. But again, there was no financing on behalf of the state.
You are right....now !
written by Guest, May 06, 2006
As you said "your evil is your government and a very politically passive people."

I would go further :
Your governments always do things with a political view not with an economical long term view for the benefit of the whole society. Therefore long term plans of 10/15/20 years are just unheard of.
A clear and amusing example was last November, to fill all your holes in your roads and highways, Lula freed 350 millions Reais and guaranteed the job will be done in 6 months.
You understand that such a small amount of money will not be enough to maintain and repair thousands of kms. But for Lula....no problem.
It appears now that all the contracts were illegally attributed to the contractors.
Worse : 73 of the 75 contractors have been reported to have major flaws in the accounting of this money.

Long term view is usually....the next elections !

In early april there already was an article on this site concerning Brazil and its tgechnology budget.
The "official" amount is 1 % of GDP, double the LATAM rate of 0.5 %.
Obviously, no comparison with other developing countries or developed countries. to have an effective idea.
Guess why !!!!!

As to your original theory you did not answer what was the migrants flows in South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India !
REYou are right....now !
written by Guest, May 07, 2006
"I would go further :
Your governments always do things with a political view not with an economical long term view for the benefit of the whole society. Therefore long term plans of 10/15/20 years are just unheard of. "

I agree I just did not elaborate on my part. The immigration is not the only way to develop a nation.

Concerning the Theory of Immigration, what I want to say is that the immigration from Europe mainly to America and some parts of Brazil was a strong factor for development but not the only one.

Every theory needs to be based on data and some facts. The fact is that Sao Paulo, for example, received a massive immigration from Europe and from Asia and that made a huge impact on the state. Now, suppose you that Sao Paulo (no racism or bigotry here, please) had not gotten the waves of poor immigrants from other states. Sao Paulo would be enjoying a much higher standard of living by now. This is my opinion. I welcome your critique.

Now, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and India are examples of countries which had a strong direct participation of the government in fomenting the development of science and technology. Japan is an example of partnership between the private sector and government. In Japan the government catalyzes the entrepreneurship and scientific development.

Brazil needs to act in the same way. The big science, basic science and basic research in technology need the participation of the government. The military research is an example mentioned above by a poster. The US spend huge amount of money in contracts with many American companies to develop and perfect weapons and that generates a lot of jobs.


...
written by Guest, May 07, 2006
Sao Paulo was build by many hard working people from many other places.

No just by a group of european.

From "Donos da Terra" Brazilian to libanes,armenians,turks,indians,blacks japaneses,greeks, italians,jews etc etc



You should learn more about immigration to Sao Paulo.

Most of the people that came in went to work in the farms or became cheap labor for the Brazilian Paulista of the time.


Corticos where favelas where european lived with more then 30 families sharing a single bathroom in the a role in the ground for you know what.


Sao Paulo Became a bigger place because has the same principal of America.

You use the first generation as cheap labor and the next second or third will most the time do well.

To presume that the power of Sao Paulo was build because of european farmes that were running from europe because of hard life is just silly

Sao Paulo became rich first with coffee thanks to the free and hard working labor of blacks.

Then you have the cheap labor europeans that went to work in most of the factories own by Brazilians.

This idea that europeans came and made Sao Paulo what is it is is just silly.

2 cents from a 500 year old Paulista.
and Yes i do have some indian from Sao Vicente in my family

LOLLLL
RE:No just by a group of european. \"
written by Guest, May 07, 2006
"Sao Paulo was build by many hard working people from many other places.

No just by a group of european. "

Yes, but the "group" (actually you should find out how big is this group, you would be surprise!) of Europeans strongly influenced the technological and entrepreneurship soul of the city, incontestably.

By the way, the immigration from Europe has nothing to do with race (some were Jews). The immigrants (Europeans and Asian) brought a natural tendency to science, engineering and entrepreneurship. Well, prove otherwise if you can.

Most of my family is from Sao Paulo and BH. I am Mineiro. My wife’s family came from Italy and they started one of the biggest companies in Sao Paulo. You probably heard about the company and the founder very well. There are many companies also founded in Belo Horizonte by Germans and Italians descendants.

However, I would not like to extend about the immigration idea and its influence on our economy (in this case more focused on specific areas of Brazil). However, I doubt that anyone can argue successfully against the fact that the European immigration helped build Sao Paulo and gave it the status the city enjoyed today (In spite of all problems the city has today, we have to accept the fact that Sao Paulo is a powerhouse, started by the immigrants and their descendants).

Visit this site: http://eh.net/encyclopedia/art...gration.us

And see about the immigration influenced the American economy.

"Beyond any effect on wages, there are a number of ways in which immigration might improve the overall standard of living in an economy. First, immigrants may engage in inventive or scientific activity, with the result being a gain to everyone. Evidence exists for both the historical and more recent periods that the United States has attracted individuals with an inventive/scientific nature. The United States has always been a leader in these areas. Individuals are more likely to be successful in such an environment than in one where these activities are not as highly valued. Second, immigrants expand the size of markets for various goods, which may lead to lower firms' average costs due to an increase in firm size. The result would be a decrease in the price of the goods in question. Third, most individuals immigrate between the ages of 15 and 35, so the expenses of their basic schooling are paid abroad. In the past, most immigrants, being of working age, immediately got a job. Thus, immigration increased the percentage of the population in the United States that worked, a factor that raises the average standard of living in a country"


Read also (about Sao Paulo):

“Alemães ajudaram a formar a classe média paulistana”:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1213337,00.html

Read also about the Italians:

Source: http://www.unicamp.br/unicamp/...5pg06.html

Excerpt:

"Queria entender como esses imigrantes do pós-guerra, apesar de terem vindo em menor quantidade, influíram na economia brasileira", explica a historiadora. O interesse se justifica, pois havia uma diferença importante em relação aos patrícios da virada do século: a especialização. "Se os que chegaram antes eram analfabetos em 90%, os que vieram depois eram alfabetizados e quase todos sustentando alguma qualificação", acrescenta. A qualificação era um critério importante para aprovação do governo brasileiro, que incentivava a indústria e não se interessava em receber novas levas de mão-de-obra barata. "

------------------------------------------------------

I will not come back again with this discussion. The focus here should be on science and technology in Brazil.
RE:No just by a group of european.
written by Guest, May 07, 2006
RE:No just by a group of european.
written by Guest, May 07, 2006
As I said. The theory of immigration is not incorrect, but does not cover the whole truth. The current decay, lack of growth and unemployment in São Paulo today, and the development of Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan and India are an example that lack of economical freedom is a much more important factor to make a nation poor than lack of education.
...
written by Guest, May 07, 2006
Just an addition, the germans from the Volga River are a clear example of what freedom and lack of freedom produce. They migrated from Germany to Russia by the 1760s because they were poor and terrible economic crises were happening in Germany, mostly due to wars. In Russia, they found a harsh environment and took time to be successful. Eventually they became prosperous, but when the russification process was started by the end of the 19th century, their communities started to decline. Many of them have migrated to the United States and other places.

Plenty of resources at Google.
R & D statistics
written by Guest, May 07, 2006
Take a look at these stats: http://www.tekes.fi/eng/public...inland.PPT

They show the statistics about research and development in Finland. See that most of the funding come from the companies themselves. Yes, they have some incentives to research (i.e., Finland has very high taxes and they are a little bit lower for companies that do research), but most companies do that simply because that's their business. Look at Nokia, whose headquarters are in Finland. Do you really think that Nokia needs incentive otherwise they won't innovate? They would be put simply out of business if they didn't do so.

In Brazil there are also lots of government funding and incentives for research. We have lots of fundings from Finep and BNDES (let's not be hypocrital here, good political connections are a strong factor to get them), and they spend billions on those projects every year. Still, companies don't innovate and don't invest in R&D here. They simply don't need to do it, because of weak competition caused by lack of economic freedom. Or, when they are small companies, they simply don't know the fundings exist, don't have the knowledge of bureaucracy to get them in the convoluted labyrinth of laws that Brazil has. Another factor that happens often is that companies do not have resources to invest in R&D, mostly because of high taxes. In all of the cases, the government is the main responsible for the low investment in R&D.

These statistics about R&D in the United States are even more clear. While the federal government reduced its budget for R&D, the private sector increased at a much high rate than the decline of federal government funding: http://energytrends.pnl.gov/us.../us003.pdf

The last stats show even more, the biggest increase in R&D investment was during the "Reaganomics" era, when taxes were cut by about 25%.

I think that makes my point evident. There is no need for government research policies or funding (except for defense, as I explained earlier). They tend to be expensive and lead to poorer results. If you wish to make a country developed in science and technology, just create a freer environment by reducing taxes and bureaucracy, and the companies will certainly use the resources for those taxes and bureaucracy in R&D.

Edega
http://liberdadenet.blogspot.com
Brazilian R&D
written by Guest, May 07, 2006
Here, we have that the state of São Paulo, the brazilian economic powerhouse was the only state to have more investments from private companies than the government: http://www.inovacao.unicamp.br...pesp.shtml

In Brazil, 58% of the investments are made by the government and 42% by private companies. And it shows even more, the expenditure is not so small, and is even bigger than some developed countries. Still, weak results.

It's good to remember that expenditures with computers and machinery also count on the investments in R&D. And those items are very expensive in Brazil. As an example, I made a comparison between the price of a notebook in the United States and the price of the product when imported to Brazil here: http://liberdadenet.blogspot.c...so-os.html

And that's cheap, it's unlikely that someone might find notebooks and other computer parts with prices up to 400% the price in US or Europe.

For heavy machinery, normally the freight costs are way much higher, even because Brazil has no mass market for those products and importing must be done by units, and that taps the costs up.
Freedom and R&D
written by Guest, May 07, 2006
No, I am not disputing here the idea about the freedom at the level here defended. I agree almost 100% but with just a small reservation.

I just want to say that the government cannot be left out of the picture because the simple fact that it has the big money for large scientific and technological projects (examples in the USA would be NASA robotic probes, research satellites, thermonuclear energy research, nanotechnology, etc). Few companies in the world would be rich enough to risk money on some major scientific and technological projects so the government needs to catalyze and sponsor the R&D.

I could go on listing American companies here in the USA which depends on the scientific and technological data generated by the government including the military.

And that is another point related to what I have mentioned in my first posting above. The Brazilian military should learn from the American military on how to be involved in the scientific and technological efforts of our country. Our military needs to be more useful in shaping our R&D future and by doing so they are also strengthened.

What Brazil needs is to manage more effectively the R&D money, as correctly mentioned above. By the other hand, we also have many cases of successful projects sponsored by the Brazilian federal government, we cannot deny that. Isn’t it?
Re: Freedom and R&D
written by Guest, May 08, 2006
Then it's ok. I agree that government must fund military research, as I have explained in an earlier post, because defense of the society is a duty of state that cannot be done by private companies, in my view. But only military research and done with care. Actually, research for defense financing in times of peace can lead to bad results. They are very expensive and not so effective, for they are mostly done before their need by the market, thus losing an important mean to finace them. It's necessary to let the market take care of research, as most inovative projects and tendencies appear there. Nonetheless, there are labs and universities that are always making research and they receive funding from large corporations (and the military as well). Thus, they can also have big money. Letting the market operate will certainly make the dependence of large companies on government funding shift to independent and specialized labs and universities.

But how would research for defense be done in such an environment? The state could just buy those researches in the market. In my view, that would be very good because that would trigger competition among universities and laboratories to provide the best defense technology. The United States are a very good example on that, I agree with you. They spend 55% of their resources for science in Defense area, although I think that could be reduced. But the most important is that Defense is the main receptor of government funds, totaling to almost US$ 900 billion which ammounts to 7.6% of GNP. Here is the american budget: http://origin.www.gpoaccess.go...owse.html,
yet I think 7.6% of GNP is a little bit high too.(in my view, those things are financing and military, judicial branches, legislative branches and homeland security should not ammount to more than 10% of GNP, for they are just maintenance costs. Investments in transportation and other areas should be done strictly under military needs. And the US don't have big rivals on defense technology around the world). But the most important thing here is that US Defense is a great buyer of military technology in the market, not spending the funds on research on their own. That, again, causes competition among technology providers and force them to design technologies that are more useful and cost effective.

Hope that makes it clear. Researching is not and end on its own. The state must preferably buy the technology for defense on the market, from labs and universities and let other technologies be developed by and sold to private companies and individuals. State buying technology is not exactly free market, but works to create a competitive environment. Your company probably has labs working this way and that's not really wrong in my view.

I want to demistify this education/research thing, which are politicized anywhere in the world, specially here in Brazil. About the brazilian projects that were successful, they are too few and cost us a lot. Perhaps the best case is Petrobrás and its exploration of oil in deep waters, but man, that costed us trillions. And yet, the lifting costs are very high compared to other parts in the world. That's a technology that was pushed to be done before its time, before other technologies were mature enough to make that cheaper. Of course, they survived only because they were protected against competition and received strong government funds. Petrobrás certainly is a great responsible for the underdevelopment of our country.
...
written by Guest, May 08, 2006
... of course, just to make clear, I am quite aware that the almost US$ 900 billion spent on military is not spent on technology buying, but on the military overall...
Not Only Europeans
written by Guest, May 08, 2006




You may say that they helped as part of many other groups but not as a only group.

Does not matter if you have the know how but do not have the people to work for you.

The only point here is the nobody from a single group can claim
full credit for the development of Sao Paulo.

Most of you post about germans and italians are "Bias".


The German one is from Germany and de second just express a personal opinion of the writer.

Sao Paulo was not build after afterWW2

"Refugiados" no offesense from Europa were able to make a living and in some cases a good living because Brazil that already existed gave then a "CHANCE"

When most countries would not take then, Brazil offer then a CHANCE.

The idea that Europe and European were so Great in thoses days is just silly .



Like they say in Brazil

Nao chuspa no prato que tu come.


Don't take the wrong way.

Just share the credit when is fair.





Re: Not Only Europeans
written by Guest, May 08, 2006
I think this discussion would go forever if I try to make me clear to everyone. So I will let it go. However, there was no bias from my part only examples.

By the way, forgive me if I correct the Portuguese here, (I do not write well in English and people often correct me all the time and it is good for me because this way I continue to learn) so:

"Nao chuspa no prato que tu come"

Should read (no accent used here also):

"Nao cuspa no prato que tu comes" - More of the Portuguese from Portugal. My grandfather used to say.

Or

"Nao cuspa no prato que voce come" - It is the Brazilian dialect.

Thank you for your opinion.
...
written by Guest, May 08, 2006
The important thing here on this culture issue is that Brazil gave chances and skilled people were successful and contributed to the country. But now, that no longer exists. Brazil is cutting everyone's chances.
Ao autor
written by Guest, May 13, 2006
Não entendo porque você escreve NESTE SITE de modo a discutir as coisas do Brasil com estes americanos ignorantes ou tendenciosos.
É lamentável ver isto acontecer.
Canada has more poverty than the US???
written by Guest, May 18, 2006
You better get some numbers on that because you are out of your mind...didn't you see the images in New Orleans?

There are people scrounging in garbage cans in every large city in the world. Take a look at the amount of poor neighbourhoods in a Canadian city compared to a US city and then you will know that there are far more poor in the US.


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