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Through Globo TV Lenses Brazil Is a White Dreamland PDF Print E-mail
2007 - January 2007
Written by Mark Wells   
Thursday, 18 January 2007 20:32

A Brazilian Globo TV network soap opera For approximately a year now I have been a subscriber to Rede Globo Internacional channel that is available through Dish Network. As I wasn't able to visit Brazil in all of the year 2005, I thought it would be nice to be able to take a peek into a big slice of Brazilian culture on a daily basis.

While I had taken in a bit of Rede Globo's TV programming on my previous five trips to Brazil, while there, watching television is something that I only did in the first part of the morning or in the waning hours of the night.

After watching Rede Globo programming for over a year, I can say that I can understand why the television giant has the fourth largest television market behind the big three of the United States, I can also say I understand why so many Movimento Negro activists have claimed that watching TV in Brazil is like watching television in Sweden.

For a country that proclaims its pride in being a mixed race nation, one could never tell from watching its television programming. Where are all of the faces of five centuries of mestiçagem?

In his study of the history of race in Brazilian movies, NYU professor Robert Stam concluded that Brazilian cinema "projected a vision of Brazil as a tropical branch of European civilization." (1).

After a few months of research, I would have to say that this also applies to Brazil's television programs as well as its mainstream print media. To be fair, I can't say with any certainty that the majority of the faces that I've seen on Rede Globo aren't genetically of mixed race, but I can say that the overwhelming majority of those faces look more European than anything else. To put it more bluntly, it's almost a complete blackout.
 
This is not to say that I don't enjoy some of Rede Globo's programming. Most of the programs are quite professional looking, colorful, entertaining and features a charismatic line-up of personalities.

While I can't say that I am an avid watcher of some of Rede Globo's popular novelas (Bang Bang, America, etc.), I am a fairly regular viewer of variety shows such Domingão do Faustão, Programa do Jô, Altas Horas, and Caldeirão do Huck.

Novelas such as JK and America were important because they portrayed the live of one of Brazil's most important political figures (president Juscelino Kubitschek de Oliveira) as well as the struggle of the Brazilian immigrant trying to make it in the US.

But the role of television in the lives of people around the world is more than just that of entertainment. It informs, educates and gives a view of the news, people and events that affect our lives. Television can shape one's opinion and influence the way that one sees the world. The television can act as both a mirror and an eye.

The television can not only reflect how we believe the world to be, how it is, but also how we desire it to be. It is both fantasy and reality. Taken from this point of view, which is it that Brazilian television is attempting to show? Perhaps it is both. And for my analysis I will take a look at the fantasy as well as the reality.
 
As I have written and many of us already know, at the end of the slave era in Brazil, elites believed that in order for Brazil to be taken seriously as a progressive country, its people had to become whiter. This whiteness was to be achieved in two ways; the mass importation of Europeans from various countries and through the process of race mixing.

As African descent peoples outnumbered white Brazilians by a ratio of about three to two near the end of the 19th century, predictions were being made as to how long the whitening (embranqueamento) process would take for Brazil to be hailed as a white nation.

Looking at Brazil's population today, it doesn't appear that the predictions were quite right. If one were to believe census reports, whites make up 54% of the Brazilian population with the majority of the remaining 46% being a mixture of Brazil's original three people: the Indian, the African and the European. Again, that is if one were to believe census reports.
 
In reality, no one can say what the country's racial composition really is. There are those who believe that very few Brazilians actually match up to what North Americans or Europeans would accept as white. There are those who believe that the country is made up of a majority of African descent people of varying phenotypes.

Just to get an idea of how daunting a task of getting an accurate count of who is what, a recent study showed that 30% of the people in a survey who self-declared themselves to be pardos (mulato or mixed race) were identified as pretos (black) by the interviewer. In a similar twist, 30% of those who self-declared themselves to be brancos (white) were identified as pardos by the interviewer (2).

Back in 2004, I remember walking the streets with one of the daughters of my host family in Bahia. She was light-skinned, but considered herself to be black (negra). I asked her if she had ever dated a white guy before. She said no.

As we continued walking the streets, she gave the typically Brazilian kiss on each cheek to a guy I thought would be considered white by Brazilian standards (although not American). As we continued walking, she told me that the guy had been her boyfriend once upon a time.

I then reminded her that she said that she had never dated a white guy before. She confirmed that she hadn't. And "what about that guy", I asked. She then stopped walking as she turned to me to make her point. "Listen, I spent a whole year living in Germany, so I KNOW what real white people look like."

Thus, when one speaks of race with Brazilians, it is necessary to understand what their social constructions of whiteness and blackness are. Depending on the person's social conscious/construction, someone like singer Caetano Veloso could be considered white, mestiço or what some call "Brazilian white." (3)
 
It is this complex manner of classifying individuals by race that became a hot topic when the idea of quotas for Afro-Brazilians to get into Brazilian universities became a highly-debated question on forums and Internet sites. All over the web, people argued about to define who was black or white.

To be truthful, it was more intriguing to me to know who was considered preto/negro (black) and who was considered pardo/mulato (generally, a person of mixed African descent). After all, how mixed would a person have to be to be considered mixed? One drop of non-African ancestry? Can a person still be considered white if they had a considerable percentage of African or Indian ancestry?

Then we have to consider the idea that Brazilians supposedly define themselves more by appearance than by ancestry. (4) I won't linger on these often debated topics here but some of these questions and ideas will periodically appear throughout this essay. There is one specific idea that I've always found to be a contradiction in the Brazilian imagination: if everyone claims to be mixed, why do the majority of people declare themselves to be white on census forms?

If everyone is indeed mixed and are proud of this mixture, shouldn't ALL Brazilians declare themselves to be pardos or more accurately, mestiços? Looking at Brazilian television through the lens of Rede Globo led me to investigate the intricate details, contradictions and complexities of whiteness from the Brazilian perspective.
 
Over the past few years, many people have denounced what they consider to be an imperialist American idea of race-based Affirmative Action policies as well as a US-modeled bipolar scheme of racial classification.

While I agree that the history of racial mixing is deeper in Brazil than in the US, the bottom line is that the color of success and power in Brazil is white or something that is close to white.

In this line of reasoning, one is either white or they are not. This is not simply the idea of an American who is trying to impose his views on an entire country; it is the way Brazil chooses to see itself and the way it wants to be represented to the world. When one takes an honest look at the racial hierarchy that Brazil has set up for itself, this becomes unquestionably true.

Take Rede Globo for instance; anyone who has access to this channel should try this test. Imagine that you are watching this channel from outside of Brazil and the channel was said to be representative of Brazil's racial composition. Would you get the idea that Brazil was a mixed race country? Count for yourself how many non-white faces you saw on the network for that week.

Ask yourself, when you did see non-white faces on the channel, how were they portrayed? Were they musicians? Soccer players? How many non-white news anchors did you see? How many program hosts? Were the non-white actors in subservient positions? Maids, slaves, sex objects? Did they provide comic relief? These are some of the typical roles portrayed by non-white people when featured on the Rede Globo channel.
 
Preto/Pardo, Negro/Mulato: Is there really a significant difference?
 
These roles appear to be so deeply ingrained in the Brazilian conscious that they hardly strike people as being demeaning. Perhaps this is why so many voices from the Brazilian black women's movement have voiced objection to the portrayals of black women being beat up and raped in the miniseries JK. (5)

Regardless of attempts of Brazilian intellectuals to paint a picture of Brazil's slavery era being less violent than that of the US, the fact remains that the history of mestiçagem has in reality been the continued rape and sexual exploitation of black women.

One of the progenitors of the famed Brazilian "racial democracy" myth, Gilberto Freyre himself tells us that "it was the bodies of the black girls, sometimes 10-year old girls...that freed white women from sexual assault." (6)

As a matter of fact, the virginity and chastity of white women during the colonization of Brazil was protected through the prostitution of the black female slave. This exploitation of the black female body is a legacy that has continued today in several ways.

Take for example the flyers and catalogs featuring brown-skinned Baianas that are given to European male tourists who come to Brazil in search of "ethnic" prostitution and sexual commerce (7). This representation of afrodescendente women proves that the words of French anthropologist/sociologist Roger Bastide still hold true today.

Having devoted a part of his career to the study of Afrocentricities in Brazil, Bastide, speaking on miscegenation, wrote that the extramarital affairs that were common in Brazil "effectively reduced an entire race to the level of prostitutes" (8).
 
As a matter a fact, in direct opposition to the idea that miscegenation proves the absence of racism, Bastide points out that the relationship between the dominant and the dominated actually makes prejudice more visible. (9) As the woman of color (i.e. negra or mulata) is considered a simple object of sexual desire and not a future mate (10), the underlying sexual valuation of the negra or mulata woman emphasizes another form of discrimination (11) because the negra or mulata is ultimately considered inferior to the white woman. (12)

Perhaps this is part of the reason one so rarely sees so many of Brazil's afrodescendente soccer stars married to women of color. This ideal of the Brazil's afrodescendente women having value only for work or sex permeates every realm of Brazilian society, including its literature.

Speaking of Brazil's world famous author Jorge Amado, Teófilo de Queiroz Júnior affirms that Amado exalts mulatas "physically, without conceding respectability to them or recognizing their value for matrimony." (13)

Lest we still have confusion as to what type of women we are speaking of when we say mulata, a verbal exchange between an American journalist and a Brazilian cab driver should clear this up. Charles Martin was riding in a cab in Rio de Janeiro when the cab driver (who was white) asked if he'd had the chance to know Brazil's mulatas. Martin tells the story this way:
 
"As I had been asked so many times by so many people about the country's mulatas, this time I answered differently. I told him that I did know some, but that I knew some in the U.S. as well. He said the two were different. I said that the essential distinction I saw was national culture, and that in either place, the women simply were black women. The driver insisted no. I asked: what is the mulata? She is not white. She is not dark black.

"Thus, she is like many black women in the U.S. (but here, they have not been seen as a particular sexual class since the old formal balls of New Orleans where quadroons and octoroons were gathered to become long- or short-term mistresses to white men of means).

"The driver, somewhat exasperated, insisted that there was a difference and that the Brazilian women were not black. I said that surely "mulata" meant something far more specific than "non-white." He wasn't talking about Japanese women, for example, was he? No, he was talking about women who were black.

"Disgusted, the driver conceded that, yes, black blood was the special ingredient that made the mulata. He went on to say that the difference between Americans and Brazilians is that Brazilians made use of a polite term, mulata, while Americans used gross ones, such as black." (14)

Note again the repugnance associated with the term black. Brazilian painter Emiliano Di Cavalcanti gained famed for his portrayals of the mulata. In an interview he once explained his fascination with this type of woman:
 
"I've always had an immense passion for the mulatas. Her plasticity, the sensuality inherent in the black race and that sad look enchanted me. (15)

Thus, as I have argued before, the term mulata is but a certain type of afrodescendente woman. She is usually not as dark as say, Sudanese model Alek Wek, but her complexion can span from the light-brown color of actress Camila Pitanga to the medium brown complexion of singer Paula Lima. The key here is that she is considered to be sensuous and very attractive.

Thus, as I wrote in a previous article, mulata carries a certain sexual connotation in its description of the negra-mestiça: she is considered more attractive than the preta woman but her status as an inferior has historically given white men the "license" to exploit, degrade and abandon her.
 
In some ways, the term mulata is similar to the term "brown sugar" that has been applied to African-American women. Millions of music fans are no doubt familiar with the infamous Rolling Stones song of the same name, an ode to slave era sexual relations. The term also recently caused a stir in Garry Trudeau's Doonesbury comic strip in which George W. Bush was made to call Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice brown sugar bringing to the fore "the painful stereotype of the black woman as a hot-blooded minx," (16)

For those who don't have the cultural background to understand the difference between a preta and a mulata, the difference can be sometimes subtle, sometimes more obvious. A good example could be found on the 1970s CBS sitcom Good Times, in which actress Ester Rolle played Florida Evans (preta) while Bern Nadette Stanis played daughter Thelma (mulata).
 
In short, there are millions of African-American women who regard themselves as black women who would be considered mulatas in Brazil. In 1970s Brazilian advertisements, American singers Donna Summer and Diana Ross were often referred to as mulatas. (17) To be more specific, a mulata is an attractive woman of African descent possessing some physical markers of miscegenation, either immediate or distant. A mulata can have light to medium brown skin with shoulder length or longer hair.
 
The concept of hair texture and length is an important attribute when defining whether a woman is negra or mulata. Anthropologist Nilma Lino Gomes has done extensive research on the significance of hair in the construction of black identity in Brazil. She notes how a negra can instantly become a mulata by simply changing her hairstyle. Hair weaves and extensions have become more and more popular amongst Afro-Brazilian women as the price becomes more affordable.

Gomes herself notes that when she wears her own hair in its natural state or in braids, white and black men refer to her as crioula, negra or negona. When she wears the weave, men call her morena, morena linda (pretty brown-skinned girl) or mulata. (18) As I reported on my first trip to Bahia in 2000, some black women feel that wearing a weave is the only way for a black woman to attract a man. (19)
 
I will also analyze this significance of hair through a nasty little fight that occurred on the fourth installment of the popular reality show Big Brother Brasil back in 2004. On one episode of Big Brother Brasil 4, two female participants, Solange and Marcela, got into an altercation that led an exchange of verbal insults.

As the argument ensued, Solange Couto (black girl), told Marcela Queiroz (white girl) that she had a "droopy butt (bunda caída)". Marcela, in turn, replied "at least I don't have that nappy hair!" (20)

Later, Queiroz was eliminated from the show, and in her opinion, it was because of her fight with Couto. Days later, she would proclaim herself "not a racist" because in the heat of the argument, she had attacked Couto's weak spot, knowing that it would bother her. In defending the idea that she was not racist, Queiroz mentioned that she didn't say anything about Couto in reference to her color. (21)
 
Apparently, Queiroz didn't know that, historically, in Brazil, as in the rest of the world, skin color, as well as hair texture, has been used as targets against the afrodescendente as a mark of his/her inferiority in comparison to the universally-accepted European beauty standard.

On the other hand, it appears that Queiroz had to know this for the simple fact that she used it as a means of insulting her opponent. In the verbal insult, a person will always attack a socially unacceptable attribute of the other person. Typical insults have to do with a person's physical appearance or ethnic origin.
 
While I am on the subject of Big Brother Brasil 4's Solange, I would also like to bring to the fore the virulent attacks she received from viewers of the show who proceeded to post their opinions online. During the run of the show's fourth installment on Rede Globo, there appeared an online blog called "Eu Odeio a Solange (I Hate Solange)".

On the infamous blog-page, next to a photo of a seemingly frustrated Solange, appeared a photo of a cartoon monkey standing on top of the letter "e" in Solange's name. To make matters worse, there was also a photo of the trademark character of Assolan (22), a nationally-recognized Brazilian brand of steel wool scouring pads used to scrub dirty dishes.

On the blog, Solange's name was fused with that of the scrubbing pad to create the word Assolange. So what does the Assolan product have to do with Solange from the reality show? Another widely used insult against the Brazilian afrodescendente is the idea that they have "cabelo de bombril" or steel-wire hair.
 
Insults such "cabelo de bombril" or "nega do cabelo duro (23) (black woman with the hard hair)" are insults so common that one can readily reference them online with a simple Google search. The point here is, terms such "cabelo de bombril" or perhaps even more common, "cabelo ruim (bad hair)" are so deeply ingrained, recognized and accepted in Brazilian society that it doesn't always appear to be an insult.

From the non-racist argument, how could it be racist if everyone accepts it to be true? Whites, as well blacks themselves will use the term from time to time. Thus, in the eyes of the country, Queiroz can legitimately stake a claim when she lamented that she "was not racist in any moment" and that now "everybody with bad hair ("cabelo ruim") will file a lawsuit." (24) 

In recent years, racist ideas and opinions that have been posted online on Brazilian websites have been more closely monitored and the blog-page entitled "Eu Odeio a Solange" was shut down soon after it was discovered.
 
(Returning to the previous discussion....)
 
While the use of the term mulata may denote a certain type of afrodescendente woman in the eyes of some, it can also inhibit the development of a specifically black identity. As the actual meaning of mulata denotes a woman of mixed African/European ancestry, it also represents a step closer to the white ideal and, just as important, a step away from blackness.

By referring to all attractive afrodescendente women as mulatas (or morenas), Brazilian society erases the possibility of the terms negra/negro being synonymous with beauty. As a result, many would-be negras in fact reject the term negra. Referring back to the cab driver incident, who would want to be called something "gross" like "negra"?
 
The terms mulata and negra have not only sexual connotations, but also represent a certain "place" in Brazilian society. For instance, traditionally, middle-upper class white Brazilian families have often "adopted" young negras or mulatas from lower class backgrounds and trained them to take care of the household, cook the meals, and help in raising the children.

As these girls grew older, they were also to serve as sexual initiation of the young boys in the household. This type of arrangement caused a controversy in 2003 when Rede Globo aired its soap opera Mulheres Apaixonadas.

In protest against an episode in which the character Carlinhos (Daniel Zettel) attempted to lose his virginity to the (black) domestic servant Zilda (Roberta Rodrigues), the Sindicato dos Trabalhadores Domésticos (Syndicate of Domestic Workers) went to court to try to prohibit the episode from airing because they felt that the episode's content would put the wrong idea about domestic workers into the minds of adolescents watching the program. (25)

Still today, in many middle-upper class homes, one will find young, primarily afrodescendente girls working while the children of these families attend school. (26)
 
So what does the rape of black (and Indian) women have to do with the programming on Rede Globo? Brazilian television, like American or French television, is a vision of how the nation envisions itself.

What is problematic about the Brazilian situation is that, while the US and France both have significant minority populations, non-whites in Brazil could arguably make up the majority of the population.

While mestiçagem is promoted as the Brazilian answer to racial conflict, the overwhelming whiteness of Brazilian television represents the Brazilian ideal. In other words, mestiçagem is a necessary transition into whiteness.

In the predictions of intellectuals in the early 20th century, it was the complete disappearance of the Indian, negro AND the mestiço that signified the triumph of whiteness; if not genetically, at least phenotypically. This obsessive march to whiteness has had dire effects on the psyches of those who do not fit this ideal.

Thus, while many continue to point the finger at the US for its shameful race relations or for supposedly imposing its racial classifications on the Brazilian, they ignore the psychological healing that millions of non-whites, as well as near whites, may need.

This psychological damage starts early in adolescence when a child somehow realizes that they are not deemed to be valuable because of their skin color or some other physical attribute.
 
Footnotes

1. Stam, Robert. Tropical Multiculturalism: A Comparative History of Race in Brazilian Cinema and Culture. Duke, 1997.

2. Ramos, Alberto and Marina Oliveira. "Sem medo de revelar a cor". Correio Braziliense. May 9, 2002.

3. Some people with whom I discussed race spoke of this idea of "Brazilian white" in reference to a person that they knew would most likely not be considered white on a global scale or even in Brazil's most southern states but could be considered white in some social circles or regions of the country.

4. For a more thorough look at this idea, see my previous essay entitled "How Is Brazil Racist? Let Me Count the Ways". Brazzil. April 2003. Available online July 13, 2006. http://www.brazzil.com/content/view/3542/29/

5. Rufino, Alzira. "Resultados da reunião sobre o caso de violência contra a mulher em JK". Etnia na TV. http://www.eticanatv.org.br/pagina_new.php?id_new=152&idioma=0

6. Westphalen, Cecília Maria. "A Mulher no Universo de Casa-Grande & Senzala".
http://nmnt.fgf.org.br/artigos/a_mulher.html

7. Dias Filho, Antonio Jonas. "As Mulatas que não estão no Mapa." Cadernos Pagu (6/7), Núcleo de Estudos de Gênero - Pagu/Unicamp, 1996

8. Bastide, Roger. "Dusky Venus, Black Apollo", Race (1961) as quoted in Carl Degler's Neither Black nor White: Slavery and Race Relations in Brazil and the United States. University of Wisconsin Press, 1971.

9. Bastide, Roger and Fernandes, Florestan. Negros e Brancos em São Paulo. Companhia Editora Nacional, 1959

10. Ibid

11. Cardoso, Fernando Henrique and Ianni, Octávio. Côr e Mobilidade Social em Florianópolis: Aspectos das Relações entre negros e brancos numa comunidade do Brasil Meridional. Companhia Editora Nacional, São Paulo. 1960.

12. Ibid

13. Queiroz Júnior, Teófilo de. Preconceito de Cor e a Mulata na Literature Brasileira. Editora Ática, São Paulo.

14. Martin, Charles. "Brazil: Such Nightmares, Such Dreams". Black Renaissance. December 31, 1998. Vol. 2, Issue 1

15. City News de São Paulo from November 7, 1971, as quoted in Queiroz Júnior, Teófilo de. Preconceito de Cor e a Mulata na Literature Brasileira. Editora Ática, São Paulo. 1982

16. Bernard, Michelle D. "Brown Sugar - Its not so sweet". Independent Women's Forum. April 30, 2004. [Available online June 2, 2006].

17. Daniel, G. Reginald. Race and Multiraciality in Brazil and the United States: Converging Paths? 2006 Penn State University Press.

18. Gomes, Nilma Lino. Sem perder a raiz: Corpo e cabelo como símbolos da identidade negra. Autêntica Editora, 2006.

19. Wells, Mark. "Down in Black Bahia". June 2002. Available online July 23, 2006. http://www.brazzil.com/content/view/6704/39/ . For an in-depth discussion on the politics of hair amongst black women in Brazil see Nilma Lino Gomes's Sem perder a raiz: Corpo e cabelo como símbolos da identidade negra (Autêntica Editora, 2006). Her description of the maintenance and importance of hair weaves reminded me much of what I saw in observing my friends, the sisters Danielle and Fátima, in my "Down in Black Bahia" essay.

20. WEBTAL. "Juliana e Marcela estão no "Paredão" desta Terça-Feira." March 22, 2004. Available online. January 26, 2006. http://www.webtal.com.br/noticia.php?cd=735

21. Terra. "Não sou racista", diz Marcela. March 24, 2004. Available online. January 26, 2006. http://exclusivo.terra.com.br/bbb4/interna/0,,OI283352-EI2533,00.html

22. www.assolan.com.br/

23. The term "Nega do Cabelo Duro" was also a popular Carnaval song from the 1940s written by the team of David Nasser e Rubens Soares. The song has been recorded countless times over the years including a version by the Rock/Rap group Planet Hemp.

24. Terra. "BBs "lavam roupa suja" e Cris leva prêmio extra." April 12, 2004. Available online. January 26, 2006. http://exclusivo.terra.com.br/bbb4/interna/0,,OI292209-EI2533,00.html

25. Mattos, Laura. "Domésticas entram na Justiça contra novela". Folha de S. Paulo. September 22, 2003. [Available online June 1, 2006] http://observatorio.ultimosegundo.ig.com.br/artigos/asp23092003993.htm

26. see France Winddance Twine's Racism in a Racial Democracy: The Maintenance of White Supremacy in Brazil. Rutgers University Press, 1998.
 
This is part five of a multi-piece article.

Mark Wells holds a bachelor's degree in Anthropology from the University of Michigan-Dearborn and is currently working on a Master's Degree in Social Justice at Marygrove College in Detroit, Michigan. He can be reached at quilombhoje72@yahoo.

© 2007 Mark Wells



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Comments (278)Add Comment
BRAZIL ...a paradise run by devils
written by Luca, Rome, January 19, 2007
1)It is very true that watching the ubiquitous Rede globo you think "where are they hiding them?"It is also true that
it is not *only* racism, it is also the laws of capitalism, you get what market demands and rich Brazilians are mainly white,
no denying that and TV channels ae about money not inner beauty. Still nowadays since tv does shape and mould people's psyche to such a large extent, tv should definitly make an effort to portray non-white Brazilains not just as maids, football players and muscicians, let alone "bandidos", but in a more positive way.This would be a major step forward or a beginning of change in one of the states with the world's highest "gini index" (=inequality rate) and where this gini index is (by coincidence?) 100% color-based..

I'd add that the comparison with Sweden was totally wrong as it is actually quite the opposite, as interestingly Swedish tv has
lots of non-swedish looking people featured in tv programs as an effort to represent the new genetations.But that's Nordic
democracy, not colonial Portuguese culture (read below)...

2) Quotas...in principle they are not nice, but in practice it is unquestioanble that quotas have helped Black people in the
US go up the social ladder very much unlike non-white people in Brazil (and in case they forgot, non-white brazilians are
kindly reminded of that by Rede globo everyday which either "hides" them or shows them as gun-holding "bandidos" (the
worst of all being those horrible and demagogic "police" reality shows, an equivalent of those feed-them-to-the-lions shows staged in the Colosseum by Roman emperors). I have always wondered, how those working people in the favelas must feel about seeing Brazilian media portraying always and only the 5% scum of the favelas and implicilty selling that as favela dwellers ?

3) it also true that *some* Black americans, like the author of the article, are "obsessed" with skin color 365 days a year
be it KKK Alabama or Greenland's ice desert and become incredibly annoyed everytime, for example, a lighter-than-him skinned Brazilian guy affirm to be pardo instead of preto like him. Skin pigmentation shoudl never matter and It is horrible to be reminded to be discriminated as black by stupid white racist people, I agree, but why freaking out on color categorization (you're no less black than me just because you're lighter) by other non-white people of all shades?

4) non-white brazilians are the least racist people in the world (unlike *some* Black americans not including the color
obsessed author of this article (whom I nevertheless appreciate for its stimulating contributions) and....unlike very racist white brazilians.....to say the least... and I love non-white Brazilians for that and hope they'll never change regardless of how
white Brazilians treat them and how some Black americans try to import **some** (bad) ideas from the US (more hideous
Farrakhan than the great Martin Luther King).

5) As for the white Brazilian "Elite", as one contributor rightly said in one of his post on this site, their mindest is
still 100% "colonial portuguese" seeing society very much still like "casa grande e senzala" (which evolved in today's
dichotomy of "Morro" and "Asfalto") and not seeing any further than their wallet and the barbed-wire fences of their
patrolled golden condos! It is also true that Brazil unlike Europe has not gone though European modernizing historical processes like Illuminism and French Revolution...if not just as a postcard from Europe. Brazil has evolved economically 100 times more than socially.... and (their) money is all that counts to rich white Brazilians showing on the way Brazilian elite tackle society's problems (not caring about the link between crime and poverty...that would mean shelling out money on social programs for pardos & pretos,> ).
Big Brother Brasil
written by Luca, Rome, January 19, 2007
http://bbb.globo.com/BBB7/Internas/0,,7531,00.html

16 contestants, 15 white and 1 black!
...
written by bo, January 19, 2007
to illustrate what the author has said even more, go to this url which shows the start of a new novela on globo called "paginas da vida"

http://paginasdavida.globo.com...56,00.html

Now there are 13 actors shown on that page....look at them!!! Someone would think that was in Europe!! I don't even think that people with knowledge of the U.S .would think it's there, as they would think, where is a latino? where is a black? where is someone of asian descent?

To illustrate even more, on that very same page, at the bottom, you will find a drop-down menu. These are ALL the characters from that novela. There are a total of 84 characters, there is ONE, possibly TWO, that would be characterized as "negra" or black, here in brazil. And believe it or not, one is actually a doctor. But out of all 84 characters, there are less than 10 that would NOT be classified as WHITE, here in brazil OR in the United States!! And of these less than 10, ALL of them with the exception of the black doctor is a maid or someone in a subservient position.

I've been living in northeast brazil for 10 years and just took a look at this page showing the characters of the novelas, I don't watch them, but my wife does, who is a black brazilian. I told her about the topic of this article while I was reading it and she directed me to the above url. She agreed wholeheartedly with the author as I translated it for her. I can unequivocably say, this is certainly NOT representative of the brazil I'm familiar with. It most certainly does look like a VERY white country somewhere in the world.....not sure it exists!
Here we go again...
written by A brazilian, January 19, 2007
It's quite sad to see the lot of effort some poor souls put in defaming Brazil. I am just here to show to some random user of this website that this is not a serious text.

He writes a very long text just for reaffirming his convictions, based mostly in anecdotal evidence (a friend knows a friend that said this) and his impressions of Rede Globo. Plus some ridiculous citations of Big Brother (arrrgh). What to make of all of this? Maybe the text could much smaller, since he repeats himself and stitches some "little stories" along the way, but maybe he expects to impress people only by the size of it.

The fact is that there are several incorrect or simply unprovable affirmations like:

"As African descent peoples outnumbered white Brazilians by a ratio of about three to two near the end of the 19th century"

Others are very clear in his anglo-saxon judgement of the brazilian society:

"In reality, no one can say what the country's racial composition really is. There are those who believe that very few Brazilians actually match up to what North Americans or Europeans would accept as white."

I think this says it all. The problem here is not racism, but brazilians not adopting anglo-saxon standards for race and segregating the society based on it.

Besides, he completely ignores the many marriages that happened in the past century up to now between people of many races, out of free will of course, and just want to show the "rape of black women by the evil white men" as if it were how the brazilian society were built. He should really stop using the 19th and 18th centuries to make his points, maybe the text would look more "believable" then.

The many shades of colors, and the fact that nobody is force to assume this or that shade, only shows how the concept of race is ignored because it's non-important. You won't see brazilians worried if some other guy or girl is a 100% pure blood Aryan.

Nobody is forced to be a "sexual object" here. They could use more clothes and study, but the truth is that for many women sex and kids is better than a carreer and books. I am not saying all women are stupid, I am just saying that they do what they want to, and some women want to have sex more than others. That's not bad, but nobody is forced to do it.

About the "Swedish TV" that 's lame. You will find all kinds of people on TV. Using the same logic you could argue that TV doesn't show as many japanese people in positions of power, and SINCE Brazil is largest japanese colony outside Japan this is wrong, right? I haven't seen a single japanese actor in those soap operas that were one of the main characters. In the rare cases you find japanese actors they have a very stereotypical attitude, with the typical silly accent and idiot looking behavior. Maybe the japanese aren't busy looking for signs of racism, or maybe they just have work to do. smilies/smiley.gif

I think it's a mistake to divide the society in "elites" and "oppressed". We should look for ways to provide education and means for the less privileged to improve themselves, while not giving anything for free.

I know that there are social problems, and usually favelados are discriminated, because they look awful, or dirty, or can't speak portuguese properly, or just have a gigantic inferiority complex because of his life of poverty. But calling this "racism" is not correct.

One of the problems of Brazil, in my opinion, is that everyone believes to be "entitled to everything", free education, free healthcare, free housing, free everything, without making any efforts. This to point of attacking doctors in clinics, if they feel their "rights" aren't met. This culture of poverty is the one that must end.
...
written by bo, January 19, 2007
It's quite sad to see the lot of effort some poor souls put in defaming Brazil.



Nobody is defaming brazil here, with the possible exception of Globo!! That is who you should have your gripe with A Brazilian. Tell me, do you think these shows on globo are anywhere close to a stereotypical racial apresentation of the reality of brazil.
...
written by A brazilian, January 19, 2007
Globo, and TV in general, sucks. This is no different than any other country. TV shows (with some exceptions) often go to the lowest common denominator and seem more to fuel stupidity than actually serve to any good purpose.

I am not defending Globo, I am just disagreeing with the interpretations the author made.
Hmmmm
written by The American Historian, January 19, 2007
Uh-oh, I wasn't sure if Wells was going to go here. All I know is, many people in the world are stunned when they discover Brazil has the second-highest number of what I will call people with some visible African ancestry the world. Most people probably think the United States has more, but we are not even close. Yep, that's Brazil, black people all over the place except on T.V.
voce fala besteira rapaz
written by Mr. Iveheard Enough, January 19, 2007
Dear Mr. Wells,

Your credentials are weak and your articles are weaker. Perhaps you should devote more time to that Master's Degree you are working on at Marygrove College and less time trying to inject the cancer of North American race obsession into a country and culture you clearly do not understand. Surely there is plenty of homegrown social injustice you can be working on in Detroit instead of trying to make a niche for yourself in the Brasilain social justice theatre. Do you really think that after taking a few trips to Brasil and by watching Rede Globo for a year that you are qualified to write volumes about race in Brasil? And are you that egotistical to think that Brasilians care what you think about race in Brasil? Why do North Americans always feel the need to do a who is better and who is worse comparison of other cultures to their own. Don't tell Brasilians that racism in Brasil is worse than in the US.

You have been littering the pages of this site for a couple of weeks now and it is a lot of nothing with nothing. Just a lot of flimsy data and your redundant piont of view on race. You have said enough....haven't you? If you have not gotten your point across by now then I am afraid five more articles won't do it either. And if you must feel compelled to write articles in the future please do not write five pages to say what you could in a few paragraphs.
So in closing sir, please leave the analysis of Brasil to those that truly understand the country and culture. But don't worry, Brasilians know there is racism in their country, they just don't obsess over it and the color of peoples skin like people do in the US, sorry to dissapoint you Mark. Brasilian racism is as unique as everything else in Brasil, a country that requires a lot more than a few trips to carnival and a few novellas to fully understand.
Mr. Iveheard Enough
written by The American Historian, January 19, 2007
Dear Sir:

I will repeat to you the challenge I have made to A Brazilian for days now: where are the facts, studies or articles that refute what Mr. Wells is saying? Amazingly, Mr. Wells has restated some of my same points with similar examples. I am a lawyer and one has no value in my profession until you prove your assertions. If you or any Brazilian can point me to ANY study accepted and relied upon by this world's experts concluding that Brazil's racial system is just dandy then I will read it, but I seriously doubt you can. And I do mean studies conducted within the past twenty years--I would not always trust any studies conducted before this time (i.e., before your military dictatorship ended).

This has nothing to do with America importing racial "divisiveness" into your society.
Bo has stated that he has run into more objections with his black wife in Brazil than he has in the United States. He is not the only person I have heard say this. Blacks in the United States are much more prominent in the media here than they are in Brazil--even in European countries like England--which is ridiculous, since blacks are only 13% of the U.S. population and an even smaller share among the British. If race relations in the U.S. are so much more awful than in Brazil, why is that the case?

You really need to read more in depth studies about the history of race relations in the U.S., including the U.S. South, and you will see many more similarities to Brazil than differences. White American men in the U.S. South had sex relations with black women (like Thomas Jefferson); so did white men in Brazil. White Southerners said race relations prior to the Civil Rights Movement were just fine and only a few black Americans were causing trouble; so do many of you Brazilians say the same thing TODAY. The American South for centuries has been ill-served by an originally land owning elite that thinks in feudal-like premodern ways, so does Brazil and most of Latin America.

Now what saved most black Americans so that they are today better off than their Brazilian counterparts: they could migrate to other parts of the United States like the Northeast, Midwest and Western U.S. that were not dominated by feudal-like elites. Parts of the U.S. that had better public school systems, higher paying jobs, better healthcare systems, more cosmopolitan populations and so forth. Sadly, too much of Brazil is still dominated by Premodern elites so too many of your people are trapped.
These folks believe in strict class and racial heirarchies and when you deny the extent of Brazil's racial heirarchy, you are simply contributing to the problem and doing their bidding (if you are not in fact one of them).

So please, pointing out some of America's racial problems is the easy thing to do. I feel you and other Brazilians must do so--and you blow such problems way out of proportion--so you will not have to face your own problems. America's black population is relatively small and will probably disappear over the next few centuries; yours is larger and must be brought into the mainstream of your economic and political life or you will continue to experience all sorts of problems. And presenting yourselves as a Southern European society in South America is just as Wells states: a fantasy. You can keep dreaming about it, but that does not mean it will ever become true.

A Public Service
written by The American Historian, January 19, 2007
Keep up the good work Mark Wells.
How Should We Settle This?
written by The American Historian, January 19, 2007
I sense here that the Latin American male believes his sense of honor is being challenged at this debate. If that is the case, maybe we can settle this question with pistols at dawn...
Either that Or...
written by The American Historian, January 19, 2007
If dueling is not the answer, then maybe some of these guys just need to get laid tonight. Come on and step forward Brazilian women and get these guys to lighten up.
Go out and take one for the team ladies.
...
written by Pete, January 19, 2007
what about the Jews?? Don't the "marranos" "Segredos" "conversos" control the media in Brasil? or everywhere except Iran?? Jews have been pitting whites and Blacks against each other for year!! to the point whites are becoming minorities!!
...
written by Bienchido, January 19, 2007
"A Brazilian" simply refuses to see what is in front of his face: that the vast majority of people on Brazilian TV are white, that the vast majority of Brazilian politicians are white, and the vast majority of people working in banks, shopping malls and other middle and upper-class establishments are white in a country--Brazil--where about 50% of the population is of African descent.

Either "A Brazilian" lives on a little farm somewhere on the Brazilian-Uruguayan border where there are no Black Brazilians within a 50 mile vicinity, or it is too painful for him to recognize racism in Brazil.
Thanks
written by Kwame, January 19, 2007
Excellent article. As an African-American man from the U.S., I appreciated greatly the insightful and honest portrayal of the racial dynamics taking place in Brazil. I notice Brazilians love to try to sweep these issues under the rug and hope they will just go away.

Despite Brazil's attempts to portray itself into a racial utopia, I think in many ways the U.S. may have done a better job in terms of race relations than Brazil. That is shocking and disappointing to say, given America's awful history. I just think the separation of people of African descent based on shades of lightness and hair texture is not positive. Brazil, with their use of "mulatto" and the subtle sense of superiority given to this group over those considered black just creates additional racial division. It is no different than South Africa and their "colored" category. In the U.S., the black community has its problems, but we are not divided by such terms. Halle Berry, Barack Obama, Derek Jeter, and others all accept and acknowledge their blackness, despite their mixed heritage. Obama is written about as potentially the first black president.

Thank you Mark Wells.
In Conclusion: Mark Wells Is A First Rate Idiot
written by Costinha, January 20, 2007
Claims are abound but facts are few. Where are the sources of your warped inferences and statistical data about Brasil? In fact, given your outrageous claims I am starting to doubt your personal claim of being a graduate student unless of course, you use plagiarism. Clearly, Brasil is not your “forte.” In fact, Brasil is a subject that you know nothing about but other than what you read on internet blogs, further dispersing misinformation for the unsuspecting. In essence, your writings are not worth the paper they are written on.

For example, you wrote “This is not to say that I don't enjoy some of Rede Globo's programming. Most of the programs are quite professional looking, colorful, entertaining and features a charismatic line-up of personalities.”

Now Then, That Is One Condescending Statement You Made! I suppose in your narrow view, perhaps ABC, NBC and all the rest of your “state controlled” media is far superior, right? I bet deep inside you consider the “black race” inferior to the whites, right? That’s very typical from 99% of the american public, race obsession.

You are biased in your so-called research (Mickey Mouse papers). You are one “crack-head” with lots of time in your hand deceiving the general ignorant american people.

Mr. Wells, you are one inconsequential american, in fact, the“Ugly American” stereotype fits you perfectly. Your deceit and absurd assumptions about others is what makes the entire world despise you, the american people, and the United States.

Idiot # 2 - The American Historian

You make about as much sense as a set of chattering buckteeth vibrating on a glass coffee table, Stupid.

You mentioned: “I will repeat to you the challenge I have made to A Brazilian for days now: where are the facts, studies or articles that refute what Mr. Wells is saying?”

When in actuality the converse is true. Let’s see how many white actors you have in Hollywood versus black actors. Of those, how many black actors have received at least an Oscar nomination versus white ones? Not a real brainer, right?

I think you suffer from incomprehensible stupidity rather than plain dumb ignorance!

Good day…

Costinha
Same old, same old
written by GWB, January 20, 2007
Boooring!

Costinha - why don't you find some new metaphors for a change? - the current ones are getting really, really stale. Now, go get some new material and come back later, mmmk? Oh and please spare us the intellectualism next time, will ya? You're just the comic/idiot relief around here - haven't you figured that out yet? No one respects you, reads your posts or honestly believes that you have any worth as a human being, other than possible canon fodder in the coming favela wars. Don't try growing a brain now little fella. Now go torture a small animal or cut yourself or whatever sadistic losers do in their spare time.
Ciao
...
written by Ric, January 20, 2007
I´d like to know what the panel thinks about Hillary trashing Obama. Politics, racism, Islamophobia, anti-tobacco lobby, all of above, none of above?
Hurling Invective From a Troubled Costinha
written by The American Historian, January 20, 2007
In fact, black Americans are doing much better in a variety of fields--including the acting business. A black man--Stanley O'Neal heads America's largest Wall Street brokerage firm. A black man--Richard Parsons--heads Time Warner, the largest media company in the world. There are others who head large financial and corporate institutions. A black woman heads MTV and a few others head American cable channels.

Blacks have been doing better in Hollywood over the past few years. A black man, Forrest Whitaker, is expected to win the Academy Award for Best Actor this year--just two years after Jamie Foxx, another black actor won it. Eddie Murphy and Jennifer Hudson could win as Best Supporting Actors this year and will almost certainly get nominated. And Dreamgirls--with a predominantly black cast will probably get nominated for Best Picture this year. And of course, Denzel Washington and Halle Berry won Best Actor Awards in 2002. Murphy, Hudson and Dreamgirls all just won Golden Globe awards. This past weekend in the U.S., a film with a predominantly black cast was the number one film in the U.S.; and Will Smith's latest film has grossed close to 100 million dollars and has been in the top three for weeks. Things could always be better in Hollywood, but the record is improving.

A black man--Barack Obama--is one of the leading candidates for the U.S. Presidency. His book has been a top best seller for months. Oprah remains the Queen of television here.

Now remember guys, all of these conspicuous achievements occur in a society only 13% black. With the size of Brazil's black and brown population, the achievments of Brazil's nonwhite population should be even higher.

I could go on citing African American achievements in the U.S., but I don't want to embarass you too much. The U.S. does not seem anywhere near as ashamed of showing it's black population to the world as is Brazil. As a black man I say this is sad, sad, sad....... And look at me, I could state my case without hurling insults or attacking anybody's character. Peace, my brothers, and more power to Mark Wells.
Correction
written by The American Historian, January 20, 2007
Respell "achievement."
Ric
written by The American Historian, January 20, 2007
I did not know Hillary trashed Obama Ric. What did she say?

I could vote for either one because each has a secret plan to conquer Brazil. The plan is to start the conquest by having Americans post articles and responses that tell lies, lies and more lies again and again about Brazil. I won't reveal the rest of the plan, but so far it is working. All Brazilians will be speaking english by 2020, and they will enjoy it or else.....
Your gonna hate me for this, but it's just a question
written by Adrianaa, January 20, 2007
After this I'll be gone, my college semester just started, and I don't wanna get addicted in coming here.
I'm not a psychologist yet ( although I studied psychology in Brazil for two years, and did psychoanalysis for five, to get to know myself, and I really recomend that for everyone) but I'll be, I was admitted to the Psychology program, I'll start this fall. I'm also in a clairvoyant training, so I'm very perceptive......but if I'm wrong, please don't take it as insult, is just a curiosity of mine......

Anyway, here is the question: COSTINHA, BY ANY CHANCE, ARE YOU A BRAZILIAN????..........A BRAZILIAN, BY ANY CHANCE, ARE YOU COSTINHA???
Just say yes or no, and I'll believe you. Well, if you want to answer, of course.
The American Historian... Hehehehe
written by Costinha, January 20, 2007
America is a racial utopia, right? Riiiiiight..... In that case I will believe in Santa Clause too!

There you have it... that's how these nesty americans are... They truly believe that if they repeat over and over again that the night sky is yellow, eventually everybody in the world will believe it too. NUTS!

american historian - America is the only nation in HISTORY which has miraculously gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization. Tip: Your head is getting too big for your toupee!

gwb - Please close your mouth so I can see who you are. Thanks!

Adrianaa - VOLTE PRO ZOOLOGICO, MACACA!


Hehehehe. american farts!
Oh please don't make me laugh!
written by Adrianaa, January 20, 2007
It was just a question, if your not A Costinha,....Ooops!....A Brazilian...Ooops!....well, whoever you are. That's ok!
But I think now you are the A Costinha we're accostumed to, not the A Costinha who posted on the eighth post above this one, that post was clearly the writing style of a Brazilian, but maybe I'm wrong, if I am, I apologize.
And the, "VOLTE PRO ZOOLOGICO, MACACA!"
You in this post, in this thread, in this forum, you just proved how Some or many Brazilians are RACISTS.
If you want to talk about our common ancerstor, at least say it right, Humans didn't evolved from the "Macaca" Monkey, is from the Apes, six million years ago...
...
written by Simpleton, January 20, 2007
5 years psychoanalysis, hummm ... It's good for you? What's this multiple personallity disorder thing all about? You can act one way within your own childhood neighborhood, in your home, in the company of close and dear friends but then when the subject is explicitly raised (or questions are asked by the judge) it's always deny deny deny and give the perfect but tellingly lilted Nao to appear to not have a clue, not reelly know what the other person is inquiring about what you said or did. I find it enthralling, even cute this uniquely Brazillian dance.
Ball Scratcher
written by Jorgao, January 20, 2007
Wow what a great forum.....I think that Costinha should be writing the articles...it would be so much more beneficial and almost as humorus. I think that Mark Wells intentions are great and like most people who have visited Brazil eventually find themselves wanting to be someway included in the Brazilians culture/society. Possibly Mark felt alienated, because the people probably found it boring to listen to race obsession! The bottom line is we need to except that racism exists in both cultures (US and Brazil) and that both both cases are unique. I am not going to sit here and compete on who knows the most about Brazil, I just want to say, stop the us and them type of thinking and realize that any form of intolerance (reverse racism) causes harm whether black, white, a sheep, Indian etc.... Realmente os americanos acham que sabem de tudo......deixa o Brasil em pais por favor e se consentra nos seus problemas!! Valeu!!
...
written by Ana Paula Hubert, January 20, 2007
What a bunch of crap!!!! I am Brazilian and I am very proud of being mix, my grandmother is black, her mother was a white portuguese woman and her father a black slave. My dad turn out to be curly hair green/hazel eyes, yellow/reddish skin. My mom is "morena-jambo", her father was black/ameridian and mom portuguese/black. She has mocha colored skin, dark coarse hair and big dark eyes. She is not dark enough to be considered black so she would fit in the "morena" category. My sibblings happens to be all different shades ranging from pardo to black. I am considered branca or morena-clara, I have "cabelo ruim", very frizzy and I chemically relaxed after moving to the USA. Here is me: www.myspace.com/raicaray.
I live in the USA for 4 years and have suffered many forms of racism towards me ranging from weird looks such "Are you going to stole my purse" lol to comments such "monkey", "the girl from the banana republic", etc. To top it off I am married to American born of French heritage and have a baby with him that turn out very light skin with light brown curly frizz hair.
I embrace all parts of my ethnicity and refuse to check a box on goverment forms, I am a "OTHER" but it seems that people here always try to label me as something because they cannot accept that I am all of those things not just one.
Also hate the term Latino that Americans insists on forcing upon me or even Hispanic which I am not. Also, most of Americans think everyone from Latin American is Mexican, speak spanish, drinks tequila and wears a sombrero lol. For your information there's is countries is South American that have Dutch, English and French as their official language.
Someone else mentioned Halle Berry being an African American, she is not she is biracial, her mother is white, her father black. That just shows how americans want to classify anyone that is not white as being black. Why can't you be both? Or several ethnicities?
In Brazil we choose to not classify a person as one thing just because she has african ancestry, also we take in count your looks and nobody needs to choose one race or another, you can just be Brazilian. But no matter how long I live in the US, I will never be just American because people here won't accept me as such...
...
written by Simpleton, January 20, 2007
Eu Carioca do Coracao. Knowing that I grew up in the 60's and 70's in a rural town where the ice and snow lasted 6 months of the year I think you can understand that there were few people of color around with whom to associate with. One set of twins who were French-African and one other family with children slightly older whose appearance would be considered black. The twins were extraordinarilly nice, talented, etc. and their folks let me hunt on thier land. My folks seemed to know the family, interacted with them for extra curricular things as everyone was active in the school musicals, marching band, etc.. I didn't understand how sometimes people would be so mean towards them or say nasty things. At one point I had even contemplated trying to date one of the twins. When talking with my folks about others in town who seemed so biased against these members of our community I guess all I came away with was that given the way things were in our area and to a larger extent elsewhere that choosing miscegenation would produce difficulties and hardships on your children and that these things were not something that were going to go away or get a whole lot better any time soon. I see now, after these many many years that it has gotten better but certainly has not gone away. I much prefer the situation in Brazil but It is clearly not perfect. If my German-African-Japonese-? friend feels driven to stay out of the sun and use whitening creams to try to get a decent job (any job above minimums), I am saddened but I cannot tell them that what they are doing is, at it's core, very wrong and against what those who say we are all Brazillians would have the world believe. They have to do what they feel they have to do for economics sake. It's the same with the high end hotels, media, etc., etc., and as I learned way back when, it's not going to go away or get whole lot better there anytime soon.
...
written by bo, January 20, 2007
You really need to read more in depth studies about the history of race relations in the U.S., including the U.S. South, and you will see many more similarities to Brazil than differences. White American men in the U.S. South had sex relations with black women (like Thomas Jefferson); so did white men in Brazil. White Southerners said race relations prior to the Civil Rights Movement were just fine and only a few black Americans were causing trouble; so do many of you Brazilians say the same thing TODAY. The American South for centuries has been ill-served by an originally land owning elite that thinks in feudal-like premodern ways, so does Brazil and most of Latin America.



You're "spot on" Historian, couldn't have said it better. Matter of fact, you're on the mark in all the posts you've made, and that's coming from someone who spent 30 years in the U.S. and now 10 years in brazil and married to a black brazilian.

by Costinha

Now Then, That Is One Condescending Statement You Made! I suppose in your narrow view, perhaps ABC, NBC and all the rest of your “state controlled” media is far superior, right? I bet deep inside you consider the “black race” inferior to the whites, right? That’s very typical from 99% of the american public, race obsession.


Once again, your types make ASSUMPTIONS, whereas many others on this board continue to cite studies and factual occurrences to support our statements. I've already gotten into the "press freedoms" here in brazil, and the U.S., and my dear, there is no comparison. State controlled media?? Costinha, you're full of s**t! Unless you're talking about the consistant judicial intervention here in brazil in respect to running stories on the daily corruption involving the judges themselves and their cronies.
I don't feel welcome anywhere in the United States
written by Concerned African American, January 20, 2007
Racial discrimination is an ongoing reality in the lives of African Americans (and Hispanics) in Metro Boston including myself (an African American born and raised in metro Boston). Although the region has experienced significant growth in racial and ethnic diversity over the past several decades, racial minority groups continue to struggle for full acceptance and equal opportunity.

African Americans and Hispanics report persistent discrimination in the workplace, in seeking housing, and in their day-to-day encounters with other metro area residents. Large shares of African Americans and Hispanics say they feel unwelcome in marketplaces and residential communities throughout the region. Racial discrimination in Metro Boston continues to be a serious problem.

Growing diversity and the passage of time may have led to a sense among some area residents that the city of Boston’s racial divisiveness is a relic of the past, and that the area’s wells of racial intolerance have subsided. Not true! Segregation has had the effect of isolating many racial minorities in neighborhoods of concentrated poverty and severe social and economic distress.

The American public must understand and discuss the broader social contexts that contribute to these inequalities, here and elsewhere in America. As the United States continues to grow more racially and ethnically diverse, and as the white population continues to shrink, the future social, economic, and civic health of the country will depend on the ability of all the people in the US to live and work alongside each other with interracial understanding and trust. Ignorance of persistent minority disadvantage across the nation combined with passive acceptance of its multiple social causes may only heighten racial polarization. I say: Long live the teachings of Dr. Martin Luther King.

From an African American citizen: America, you must change your old ways before criticizing others.

...
written by bo, January 20, 2007
by Adrianaa

Anyway, here is the question: COSTINHA, BY ANY CHANCE, ARE YOU A BRAZILIAN????..........A BRAZILIAN, BY ANY CHANCE, ARE YOU COSTINHA???
Just say yes or no, and I'll believe you. Well, if you want to answer, of course.


Adrianaa, you are perceptive! I've been saying that for a while, but not only that. One has to believe when seeing the writing styles change for some of these posters, and also how some of them twist and tort written words on a page to mean something entirely different, then show no kind of proof whatsoever to substantiate their statements yet always blame others for doing this very thing, when the contrary is true. One has to consider the possibility of them being associated with this site to keep the conversations "lively".

Either that, or they're complete idiots, lol.
America, love it or leave it
written by Proud Wite American, January 20, 2007
America was founded on Christian values and we the best country in the world. All them whining Negroes, Jews, Spikis, Chinese and all the rest of the garbage go back to where you come from. We dont like you, we dont need you, we don’t want you!
...
written by Simpleton, January 20, 2007
More on here then and there now of the non-institutionalized / non-legislated variety:

After getting out of college and onto my feet we upscaled to renting a house. The deal we found went quickly and the low offer we made was accepted instantly by gentlemen’s agreement (i.e. the contract was signed and money paid well after we'd already been given keys and moved in). As it turned out the owner who had raise her family in that house would have been murdered by her old neighbors if she had leased the place to the black family that had inquired of the property a little before we came along. The house next door was occupied by the daughter of the original owner and her husband. There was always some confusion as to whether they were renting the place or making payments to buy it from the mother. Several times there were competitions between the two old birds as to who had the best illegal Mexican yard worker / landscaper. I found it odd that the gal next door was virulently biased against Mexicans although she clearly had phonemes of Hispanic origin of her own. One hot Saturday after cutting down trees and limbs for them to make a sunny area for a pool (and a case of beer apiece - that's 24 latas folks) my jaw dropped clear to the ground with an earth shaking thud. The husband said something that showed that he was deeply racist at his core. How could this be that after five years living next door that we had never heard nor seen any sign of this from his corner before? (I actually know why but that I will save for another story.)

Another Carioca friend of mine who looks to be Congolese turns sour and says nasty things whenever the elderly and pasty looking Portuguese woman in the neighborhood walks by. Yes of course the old woman is very rich and you have nothing. I am very white, you are very black, we are kindred spirits so clearly this issue is not a matter of color (unless there's been issues / words between you from long before that you have not revealed to me). The very nice mostly Portuguese looking temporada that takes care of anything and everything for my stay does one thing I'm not so comfortable with. The dark skinned worker she brings on cleaning days is chided / put in her "proper" classically conditioned place with a quick syllable or glance. For me she does not have to stop instantly, slouch demurely and turn her face to the wall as I walk by to go out for a bit and let her do her work. After all, I spoke directly to her not you. Even though you know no english and I very little Portuguese you clearly understood I expected you to pass on the couple real tip I tried to give to this poor sole. Sorry, but I can not and will never act my caste.
Duh
written by GTY, January 20, 2007
Another irrelevant article that points out the control the white elite have on Brazilian media, business and government...duh? Did the author really think they would enlighten us? And now the biggest explotation of the Brazilian poor is just around the corner, the tens of millions of dollars that Carnival generates go directly to the pockets of city officals, beer companies, telecom and all other corporate sponsors, while the poor who Carnival claims to help are thrown a few bones. Instead of Carnival, how about taking the Chavez lead and use money to help the poor and deliver services, including petro dollars. YES, Brazil is an extremley racist society, no doubt. How many whites are in the street of Rio our Sao Paulo begging, juggling tennis balls or committing crimes? How about some articles that propose solutions rather than continue to point out the problems. While racial strains exist in the US, comparing opportunities for people of color in Brazil to the US is just plain silly. I wonder how many blacks graduate from the Federal universites there are in Brazil. When I was on the campuses of Rio and Sao Paulo I saw a sea of smiling white faces. Go to any US University or college and see the diversity we have created that has migrated to the work place and society. Brazil IS like an ice cube melting in the hot sun. Once the leader of South America, it now must take a back seat to other, much more progressive countries. Electing a president who is a complete idiot didn't help either (in Brazil that is, we have our own idiot in the US).
Simpleton
written by A brazilian, January 20, 2007
If my German-African-Japonese-? friend feels driven to stay out of the sun and use whitening creams to try to get a decent job (any job above minimums), I am saddened but I cannot tell them that what they are doing is, at it's core, very wrong and against what those who say we are all Brazillians would have the world believe.


Seriuosly, such thing doesn't exist. The only time black people used powder (not cream) to look more white were Football players in the beginning of the 20th century in order to play in a very few famous football clubs that didn't allow blacks. 100 years have passed already, stop saying that.
Studies? Oh really?
written by A brazilian, January 20, 2007
Once again, your types make ASSUMPTIONS, whereas many others on this board continue to cite studies and factual occurrences to support our statements....


I guess blacl activists stories and biased international "studies" of those willing to implement American racial mindset count as "factual occurrences". The fact is that any brazilian can say that most of what you say is completely nonsense. The little that's not nonsense, it's so misinterpreted that we can only think of bad faith.
Para Ana Paula
written by A brazilian, January 20, 2007
Olá. Yes, I had the same impression about the US when I went there. They are very divisive and just can't accept people are different from each other without labeling them some generic name, and the generic name of course will be just to make clear that the person is not white. Being "white" in the US is something regarded as above all others. I think the mentality of "every non-white is black" in black americans is a reaction to that. They can't be "whites", so they want to call everyone else black, as much as they can, in order to have their own little racial club.

Now we see Ignorance versus ignorance. Who will win? smilies/smiley.gif

That's why you see so much outrage from americans when they find out that in Brazil race is something much more relaxed, that people don't like talking about it. People are free to be what they are, and being also from a family with all kinds of people I understand what you mean.

The only thing we can do is to keep showing the lies from these activists, and their attempt to transform Brazil in some sort of Nazi playground, where kids will be researching about their ancestors to know if they are 100% pure Aryans or not.

I have lived all my life in Brazil, and never suffered any racism, even not being 100% white. I know other people that as mestizo as me or black that successful. I know it's futile saying it, because they will say pardos and negros live all under the bridge and it's all a conspiracy from white men to keep them that way, BUT the truth must be said, even if people is not willing to listen.

The biggest display of racism I have ever seen in my life is happening right here, in this forum, from (some) black-americans and a few whites.

I live in the USA for 4 years and have suffered many forms of racism towards me ranging from weird looks such "Are you going to stole my purse" lol to comments such "monkey", "the girl from the banana republic", etc. To top it off I am married to American born of French heritage and have a baby with him that turn out very light skin with light brown curly frizz hair.


Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Also hate the term Latino that Americans insists on forcing upon me or even Hispanic which I am not.


I also hate it. I think any brazilian hates it. This is such an ignorant statement, they have abolutely no clue of what they are talking about. This is exactly the example of "race relations" in the US that they are trying to sell.
...
written by Simpleton, January 20, 2007
Yes GTY, comparison of oppotunities for persons of color in Brazil vs the US, particularly in engineering, should be tossed out. With the advent of a potential sunami of growth and the profit potential therefrom even the private jewish owned company with which I am familliar has opened thier doors to talented individuals of every size, shape, color, gender, national origin and religeous affiliation. That's not to say there's going to be room at the top any time soon for any of them but just being able to walk though the building and finally see something balanced much closer to what the surrounding metropolitan community looks like is amazing. Dinheiro muito poderosa.

As to the universities down there, I don't know if you'll find demographic statistics available anywhere. Hearsay is probably pretty close to the reality. If the foreign med school student provided five years of psychoanalysis service then left when he finished his degree, he appears to be doing the right thing in helping his charge that he left behind in getting an opportunity for a higher education. If there's a desire to return or develop international business affiliations then having connections to get his name entered onto a birth certifcate with no more than a promiss of possibly bringing the child to the US or Canada for college when they grow up (so as to get a permanent visa for themselves) is not unheard of.

So where were we, Oh yes, social biases. Dark vs very dark. Very dark vs very light. One set of european phenomes vs aonther set across town in a rursl community in the 50's / 60's. Very rich vs very poor right next door to each other with or without the physical barriers of a spiked fence or metro line. You'll not feel any better or at ease with the world than to have a chance to forget all this, leave it behind and see no trace of it when you go to a festa in a small burg that is half African and half Dutch immigrants.
...
written by bo, January 20, 2007
I guess blacl activists stories and biased international "studies" of those willing to implement American racial mindset count as "factual occurrences".



Once again, you're full of s**t! Many studies that I have posted here are FROM YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT!
To A Concerned African American
written by The American Historian, January 20, 2007
Yes, I know there are problems in places like Boston and nobody here is arguing the U.S. does not still have some racial problems. I entered these discussions because I saw a few folks--as a means I believe of downplaying Brazil's racial inequality--blowing the problems of America's blacks and racial polarization way out of wack. And I certainly do not want to dismiss the problems you or the U.S. Brazilian woman say you encounter in the U.S. I simply think it is valuable to point to the progress many U.S. blacks have made as a means to give hope to the 20% or so U.S. blacks still ranked as poor (by U.S. standards, not Brazilian standards by the way) as well as blacks and browns in Brazil who also need hope.

Someone asked for solutions. I don't want to write a book but can sum it up rather briefly. The world societies of today that function the best invest in their people, and not only their whitest people. A top notch education system, access to decent health care, investment in other infrastructure, good government fiscal management, a clampdown on corruption and crony capitalism--and yes, confronting drags on upward mobility, specifically confronting racism and the corrosive affect of Brazil's Premodern elites. The correct plan is easy to figure out; implementing it will be the hard part.
The White Supremacists
written by The American Historian, January 20, 2007
To the White Supremacists who appear to have come to this discussion, I say go home and keep an eye on your girlfriends, wives and sisters. I was with all of them last night and had a great time. Damn they were good.....
Brazil "the land of milk & Honey"
written by GTY, January 20, 2007
A Brazilian writes about his (or her) expereince with racism in the US. Wow, while my white Brazilian friends continue to belch about Brazilian "multi-culturalism" even the most casual eye can detect a posonoius attitude towards people of color in Brazil by lighter skinned Brazilians. I hear, "every one uses the same beach"...that is what they usually point to, the beach, Carnival and sports, but people of color go home to very different places. How many black Brazilians have an empregada to clean their homes and rasie their kids. You want to expereince fear, how about the fear most "white" Brazilians fear when they are in Lapa, or Copacabana and they are approached by black youths...this can not be compared to the US. Ironically, after many years of debate, the tens of millions of immigrants living in the US illegally, many Brazilians, will soon be legalized members of the US society, while there will be some that will fight it, it will be done. What other country, on the face of the earth, despite all our problems would welcome tens of millions of newcomers as members of a free society. I am married to a wonderful Brazilian and count many Brazilians as best friends, most come from lower to middle class families from all areas of Brazil, they are productive and valuable members of many US comunities, it is a sin thtat they have not been able to go home to visit family and friends, those days will soon be over and Brazilians as well as every other immigrant will find additional and endless opportunites. When will Brazil create opportunites for these same people, who if they had a choice, would never have left Brazil in the first place.
...
written by Simpleton, January 20, 2007
A Brazillian:
I assure you that I'm not talking of 100 years ago. The cream is actually something I believe was devised for use in the plastic surgery community. It's not meant to cover / fake a lighter color or disguise like a powder. What it seems to do is to cause the outer dermal layer to come off en-mass leaving the tender and lighter / less sun exposed skin to be presented. These are real people / real stories from both sides. If you don't want to believe people there feel this way / do these things maybe you need to get out of your sheltered environment and mingle with the good, descent, honest (but adnuttedkt poor) soles having to cope with the real world in and around Rio.

Now for my Sludge in the Bottom of the Beer Bottle story:

Call it a personal epiphany if you will but as cold a piece of machinery as I was molded into being, know also this that I am also driven to being deeply emotional beyond any logical sense. It is in Brazil that I know I will do what it is that my maker had set forth for me to do as the ultimate achievement in this life. I know not yet what that deed is nor in what form it will take. I know that it is there that it will come to pass, that it scares the crap out of me, and that it brings me to tears every time I try to contemplate such unfathomable action, activity or event. Whatever it is it that will be done it will happen not out of choice nor deliberate action nor any conscious decision on my part. It will be natural, instinctual, most likely instantaneous without any sense of or fleeting moment to give due consideration to preservation of self.. Please Lord, release me from this burden.

Now for Proffesori Tells All:

It has been well observed that the younger generations have not been taught to qualify their sources of information. On this site it is clear to most that citations of statistics, research and or conclusions of other’s with widely distributed writings is used and abused or concatenated with uncoupled / more or less unrelated issues or facts to build up a more grandiose and ugly argument of the state of things present past or future here, there or everywhere. Posing masquerades, playing charades, deflecting focus to iconic figures, hurling facetious vindictives while these are also entertaining in a way they don’t really do anything to help either. Hey kids and those with unopened minds, please take care for what you are being fed here.
Haha
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
It's of no use to tell americans the reality of Brazil, they will say it's a lie and keep repeating the twisted facts and numbers they were sold by those with the interest in promoting racial hatred. How many black peole have maids? I know many. What other society would receive 10 million? Brazil did receive millions and millions of people, and none were segregated. When will Brazil create opportunities? It does everyday, some see them some others don't. Some that don't see them flee.

Americans don't seem excited about accepting immigrants as part of their society, be it legally or culturally.

What it seems to do is to cause the outer dermal layer to come off en-mass leaving the tender and lighter / less sun exposed skin to be presented.


I must be from another planet then, because I never saw or heard of anything like it. I suspect this is a plain lie.
Bo, I have a little story for you
written by Adrianaa, January 21, 2007
On the first year I was here, I was taking English classes in SF, I had a Brazilian male classmate, he was a lawyer in SP. He was very sweet. One day we were having a class discussion ( teacher and the other students from different nationalities) and the law subject came into the discussion, everybody was envited to give an opinion on the subject. My Brazilian classmate was quick to share his view. He said that in Brazil if one has a "curso superior" BA, and above, this person if commit a crime, has the right to go to a special JAIL or PRISON. And our teacher knowing that I was also Brazilian, looked at me and asked, " Adriana, is this true?" I said "yes". I noticed she was shocked, but she didn't want to embarass us, and she directed to the other students. But I asked her about the U.S. and she said, " Well, in here, if you commit a crime you go to NO SPECIAL jail, regardless of having as many BAs as you can have." Then it was our turn to be shocked ( my Brazilian classmate and me) On the break, we talked about it. we said to each other, " Gee, how come you know, this is so obvious, if one has a BA, or "curso superior", well, it means this person is superior, right?"......My answer today?.....WRONGGGGG!!!.....
Adriana
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
A nice attempt to defame your ex-country, but I think this is a very minor problem given the state of the prison system. I would ask you though what shocked you in the time you staying in the US? Were you labeled Hispanic? Did you suffer racism? What do you think of race obssession of americans?
NOW DO THE MATH
written by Adrianaa, January 21, 2007
How many Blacks, Mulattos,......are able to get a "CURSO SUPERIOR" BA, and be able to call themselves "SUPERIOR"? Or even the white poor Brazilians for that matter?
COULD THE ANSWER FOR THESE PUZZLE BE AT JUST LOOK AT THE COLOR OF THE BRAZILIAN PRISON POPULATION?
I DON'T KNOW. MAYBE. BUT FOR SURE IT COULD BE A GOOD INDICATOR.

I think justice minister, Thomas Bastos (I think his name) wanted to change that, I think two years ago, I'm not sure. My father told me that it didn't go through, and I don't remember why ( my father works in the law "enforcement" field for more than thirty years), he also hates this law. Maybe I should call him and ask the name of this law. My father is studying journalism, because he is fed up with the media in Brazil, he thinks he can contribute with something, just like he did when he was a teenager against the dictatorship.
One more think, I don't know if that was shown in Brazil, but Martha Stewart ( she is the third or fourth richiest woman in the U.S. and she is blonde) she went to JAIL, when? two years ago I guess.
Adriana
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
You dodged my questions. smilies/smiley.gif

About your little rant:

- Nobody is called "superior" because they did the "curso superior";
- lots of mixed people actually go to the college;
- Recently the little rich blonde girl, who had assassinated her parents, went to jail, for 20 years. So I think this enough counter argument to your silly example;

So, how is life going, "Hispanic"? Hehehe
A Brazilian, two Brazilians in this forum called me a "Macaca"
written by Adrianaa, January 21, 2007
If you want to believe me ( I have no reason to lie) I was never called a "Macaca" here in the U.S.
I remember when I told my high school friend, I was coming to the U.S. She said that Iwas going to suffer in here, and I got scared. I wondered, am I going to suffer there what I sometimes suffer here in Brazil? I didn't want to hurt her feelings by telling her " Hey, do you have a mirror at home?" She is white; my skin tone is mocha, she has a flat nose; I don't have one, her lips is very thick; my is thin, her hair is thick and curly; my is very thin, and she is very short; I'm very tall (1,76m.) many times I was the tallest in my classes, and I thought, maybe that is way, they see some beauty on me, and they are unconfortable. My father' s side has Spaniard, Native Brazilian and Portuguese, and my Mom's side has Native Brazilian, african, and Italian. I realy don't care when they see me as a Mexican ( Mexican woman is preatty), Asian, African American ( I'll feel honored if someone thinks that I look like Beyonce.) I used to swim in a fancy club in SFMarina called Dolphin Club, I never had any problems.....well....just until I would put on my bathing suit....and start swimming in the SF Bay cold waters...but those kind of problems were good for my ego...
A Brazilian, I live in a place that is considered to be the most diverse place in the U.S.( maybe that is way, I never had any problems, I guess) I gave up on counting how many African American Professors I had, and they hold Phg. two of them went to Brazil, and we talk a lot, and I never sensed any race obssession coming from them ( they gave me and give me a lot support)

I think you should relax, if they worry about Brazil is for social scientific reasons. In Brazil we call them "Brazilianists" right? people that is interested in another culture and decide to study that culture, I don't see nothing wrong with that.
BTW, did you take my right to be Brazilian? You wrote: " Your Ex-Country"
Ohh! Gee! You are funny......
Well, Martha was and still is a celebrity
written by Adrianaa, January 21, 2007
She is the third or fourth richiest woman in the U.S....What Martha did to go to jail compared with that teenager girl is no way to compare.
Some people even think that Martha was innocent, that she took wrong advise from her stock market "adviser."
Then, you know, this teenager girl didn't listen to her mom about taking her education seriously, if she had done so she would be able to avoid "Pavilhao nove."
...
written by jabmalassie, January 21, 2007
I like how you say that"stock market advisor" smilies/cheesy.gif
...
written by Simpleton, January 21, 2007
"I must be from another planet then, because I never saw or heard of anything like it. I suspect this is a plain lie."

I hadn''t considered that you were an alien. If you are - Ta legal - I like and agree with what you do and say nearly all the time. In your reply towards me I think your words point very closely to the underlying problem(s):

That a) when something is different or
b) nothing like what you have encountered before or
c) not what you were told all of your life or
d) some combinantion thereof
then what you do (or don't) see is going on in real vivid life / happening right next to your own door, is bound to cause suspicion / distrust / dislike / disdain / disbelief / denial.

You'll just have to accept my word that my friend got my wife to apply this during our trip last spring. What happened is exactly what I said. Luckily she only applied it to her face and she had sufficient time to recover her tan. She was down right pi***d although it might have helped with clearing up her zits.

Have you heard of Goth's? I knew a yuppie couple that took this to extremes. They wouldn't even set foot outdoors when the sun was up. A very scary white. Couldn't possibly be healthy regardless of vitamins and supplements (or maybe they were taking transfusions??).
Good Response
written by The American Historian, January 21, 2007
I think she got you good A Brazilian. I think you should think carefully before you respond (but you probably will not).

And Adrianaa, I really like the San Francisco Bay region too. I have good memories of growing up there for part of my time as a kid. My parents moved there in the mid-1960's in part because the race relations were best there in the years right after the passage of the major U.S. Civil Rights laws of 1964-65. So you are right, interracial relations have always better there for some time. And do not swim in the bay it is far too cold unless you are a polar bear.
...
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
There are an infinite variety of creams for passing on the face. Since for pure cosmetical reasons to medical reasons (such as acne), I had girlfriends that would use those. I just can't believe that there's one specific for "whitening", or used specifically for looking "whiter".

I have known a few goths. I had a friend, which was blonde BTW, that would dress like a vampire, with make up and all, for going out... go figure.
Adriana
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
For what I understood they called you a "macaca" because your friend Bo called all brazilians macacos and Brazil a banana republic.

I am not worried if they like this place or not, all I can do is to leave a message in here for future visitors not to think that these little stories, wrong numbers and made up facts are for real. To let very clear what really happens in here. The types of people that write the load of crap the article is aren't interested solely in "social whatever" topics, they have an agenda to promote.

Would Brazilian TV show an interview of Condi Rice or Barack Obama?
written by Lyle Davis, January 21, 2007
I'm asking this question seriously for people's opinioins. If Brazilian TV is so white washed, will they go so far as to avoid showing such internationally important figures such as Condi Rice and Barack Obama. I am African-American BTW.

Lyle
...
written by Ric, January 21, 2007
What I see a lot is little Brazilian kids coming home crying, because mom put a banana in the kid´s lunch and the other kids called him a monkey. Nothing to do with his appearance. I think name calling among kids and making up nicknames is almost a mania here. "Mãe, não quero mais banana não. Eles rim de mim. Por favor, mamãe, caba com isto.....". Everyone has a nickname. Bacurí. O Velho. Xibé. Zé do Óleo. Baiano. Arigó. Grego. Zé do Carvão. Nego. Doidão. Pilão. Sifão. Carão. Negão. Raimundão. Xixi Numuro. Meu Coração è de Jesus mas meu Pulmão da Souza Cruz. Oops, that last one is a truck bumper...
...
written by Ric, January 21, 2007
For swimming, try Stinson in the summer or go down behind the Cliff House and ask the swimmers how they do it.....
...
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
Yes, usually everyone has a nickname, at least when you are kid. I had a friend whose nickname was "s**t", yes, "s**t". Everyone called him by that, it was very funny, the very first time I heard it I couldn't believe he was known as "s**t" and didn't seem to care at all.
Para Lyle
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
Brazilian TV is not white washed.
WHAT agenda???
written by a human being...nothing more, nothing less, January 21, 2007
YES Americans of many shades are color conscious, but what caused this is America's race bias it self. Does anyone think that people of color historically liked being considered inferior to those with lighter skin??? If it were up to them, color WOULD NEVER be an issue. African enslavement was justified in part because of differences in skin color, so thats where this mentality originates. This is a part of America just as it is a part of Brazilian society. The color problems in both societies started with colonialization of "indian" land and the enslavement of Africans and they evolved differently.

Dont deny that there is a problem! Embrace it and work towards making the necessary changes to eradicate the inequalities that are soooo obvious - especialy when watching any film or televison programing made for primarily a Latin American audience.

What upsets me about what I read in this forum is the fact that people want to act like the authour of the artical in question has an evil agenda other than to inform. I dont know his true motives except that the essay was perhaps written for a univesity grade or for publishing here for ($$$), but his observations on Rede Globo are true and you can do that bit of research your selves. He also sited 26 footnotes of reference. How much more do you want? The US and Brazil are both beautiful, as well as F*cked up for diferent reasons.

Ignorance and denial are the biggest obstacles to realizing equality and achieving justice for all. Ask yourselves -what is YOUR motive for denying that there is a problem with these racialized systems? Progressive changes in society seem to have only occured in history when they were forced upon the establishment NO! everything is NOT okay with how things are presented to us by the media or by our governments. They can always be better.

***corrections***
written by a human being...nothing more, nothing less, January 21, 2007
Sorry - I am coming off of a 12 hour shift at work.
especially
television
university
different

...
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
He also sited 26 footnotes of reference. How much more do you want?


I think you should take a better look in those footnotes and how the numbers are stitched together with little activist stories plus and association with non-related issues.

Ask yourselves -what is YOUR motive for denying that there is a problem with these racialized systems?


Truth. That's my reason. Having african ancestors myself I see that everything written in this site is a plain lie. There's no progress if you base yourself in a lie.

Progressive changes in society seem to have only occured in history when they were forced upon the establishment


Wow, a facist! What, do you love Hitler for forcing the Aryan ideal upon jews too? According to this people everyone that disagrees with them is part of the "establishment". If they happen to be successful blacks or pardos then they are "sellouts" and live in denial.

These type know-it-all-americans make me want to vomit. The Ric guy was just saying in the other thread he knows more about Brazil than brazilians themselves, hahahahahahahahahaha.

The incredible nonsense in this thread
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
As I said in some earlier post, the racist author wrote this unnecessarily big text only to impress his racist readers. People don't even check what he is saying or if it makes sense at all, if it has lots of lines and footnote full of useless stuff like Big Brother websites links to other forums, etc, then they conclude this is "a study". Oh my God, and some so called Historian, that not too long ago claimed Brazil had an anglo-saxon culture (sic), associates Brazil with "feudal like lords" in the quote below.

White American men in the U.S. South had sex relations with black women (like Thomas Jefferson); so did white men in Brazil. White Southerners said race relations prior to the Civil Rights Movement were just fine and only a few black Americans were causing trouble; so do many of you Brazilians say the same thing TODAY. The American South for centuries has been ill-served by an originally land owning elite that thinks in feudal-like premodern ways, so does Brazil and most of Latin America.


If this is not the most incredible thinking ever written about this subject on this site, probably is among them. This men, with zero data, besides what is fed in this site by a biased author, claim such horrible things and still firmly believes he is right. Such broad claims about a society of 190 million people, of a country whose territorial space is enourmous, and it's rich in diversity due to the different colonizations of different parts of the country, can be taken seriously?

I think not. People here live together without classifying each other, as I could witness in my own family and in other families as well. I grew seeing this in real life (not TV, not books, not "studies", etc), it has been so for many decades. There are no "acts of violence from feudal-like lords".

I guess for people like the Historian Brazil is nothing more than a big farm. The worst part he still extends it to the "most of Latin America". Completely clueless, he probably doesn't realize the size of "latin america", geographically speaking, therefore the size of his generalization, or else he wouldn't say such thing that only hurts his argumentation.

These folks believe in strict class and racial heirarchies and when you deny the extent of Brazil's racial heirarchy, you are simply contributing to the problem and doing their bidding (if you are not in fact one of them).


What evidence do you have of this? And who are they? Brazilian has a class hierachy that's no different than anywhere else. And there's no such thing of racial hierarchy.

As I can tell you, there are no conspiracies for holding any brazilians down in poverty. If it is could you please do the favor of pointing it out? With a document or something?

And presenting yourselves as a Southern European society in South America is just as Wells states: a fantasy. You can keep dreaming about it, but that does not mean it will ever become true.


What's wrong about Brazil being Brazil? Why do for black americans you are either European or African? Don't they have a culture for themselves?

The point of disagreement is that Brazil is Brazil, but african americans want to paint it as Africa. If a brazilians says the truth, i.e., that it's not Africa, then they are accused of "portraying it as Europe". It couldn't be farther from the truth, point me where in Europe you will find things like "Carnaval".

Brazilians are well aware of the racism that exists in Europe, and well aware of the differences. Nobody wants to make of Brazil an Europe, even because the brazilian culture and values are incompatible with those.

I think you should stop, read and evaluate everything you have written, because you very ill informed. For someone that uses the name of "Historian" you should have a greater appreciation for facts, not hearsay or propaganda.

I only wish people like could realize there are better ways of living. I can assure you that living in a so
...
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
Complementing...

I only wish people like could realize there are better ways of living. I can assure you that living in a society so raceless is good for the mind, a greater sense of freedom.

Brazil must become every time more and more raceless, we must finish with this disease once and for all. Then we will all be brazilians. Tell me what other place in the world has ever done this? None, it never happened. It is our goal as brazilians to make what no other people would be capable of.
...
written by Simpleton, January 21, 2007
Actually, I skipped reading the article and jumped pretty much straight to the commentaries this time. Now I think it's time to skip those as well until another subject comes up.

A-Brazillian - some times you're very close to focussing but other times youl twist things around to your own agenda a bit more or a bit more strongly worded than you need to or should. Anyway, I didn't say the cream was made for the purpose that my friend was using it for. As the company that makes it or makes it under contract is a Brazillian one of course it will never be advertised or overtly marketed for such purpose. Back to the point. It's terrible that someone with darker shin feels they have to do thier best to lighten up in order to have a better chance at a decent job. Please don't just aay they are wrong or stupid for believing this, etc., it's very very real in the world they have to survive in and it's nothing like what's wrong in the US.
Important work!
written by Brazuca, January 21, 2007
"...all I can do is to leave a message in here for future visitors not to think that these little stories, wrong numbers and made up facts are for real."

You're doing very important work, A Brazilian!

When anyone with a slight interest in Brazil googles the country, this site will be one of the top returns, if not on the first page Google brings up, then on the second.

The potential for people curious about Brazil to be maleducated about the situation in the country is huge if they see articles like that of Mark Wells go published uncontested. The impression of Brazil, erected upon such a shoddy foundation as the testimony of Mark Wells and his ilk, insures any understanding progressively built from there will be flimsy at best. And such is the tide of misunderstanding such misinformation can cause that it can threaten to overwhelm Brazilians themselves, breaking any levees of commonsense that may have thus far served to keep such nonsense at bay.

I don't think, however, the US Americans have malicious intentions in all this. It's just that they are only able to interpret things within the framework of their own national experience, which has of course been characterised by an ungodly obsession with race. Latin and Germanic people have fundamentally different governing frameworks of interpretation and comprehension, resulting in strikingly different ways of thinking about such things as race. This is evident in their contrasting histories, where Brazil was essentially colour-blind and the US was, to say the least, very colour-conscious.

But as I said, your contribution serves the purpose of setting the matter straight for thousands of visitors, or at least offers a challenge to the impression that may be made suggesting the nonsence peddled by the likes of Mark Wells is settled truth. And, yes, I did say thousands of visitors: I remember this site advertising around the time I first visited it that it receives around 5,000 visitors a day. I'm not sure if that's still the case, but if it is, your efforts championing the truth are certainly important and valuable.

Keep up the good work!
...
written by Ana Paula Hubert, January 21, 2007
The monkey comments I have received did not came from a child and I am neither a child. I am neither Hispanic or latino, I am human that happens to have a Brazilian passport, that's it. I am tired of the weird looks I receive from people, of comments referring to my relationship with my husband as "interracial". My husband did not marry a dog or a horse so there's no interracial marriage here. He married a person that belongs to the same race as his does, the human race.
When I came to this country I thought I would be different, you know the whole American dream thing and everyone is treated as equal here. WRONG!
I have strangers walked to me and asked: What are you? Like I am some kind of weird animal or species... I have never suffered anything like back in Brazil neither did my sibblings, grandmother or mom. I come from a very poor family and worked as a "baba" e empregada for Elite brasileiros and they treat me just as bad as they did to black empregadas. It is not about race it is about money, you have money you go to college and you are superior somehow to others. That's how it works in Brazil. Race has nothing to do with it. It is about "berco" classe social.
Now someone here trying to paint Brazil as a racist country it is really bulls**t. Brazil discriminate against social class, obesity, looks, education and women the last of them is race.
For the Brazilians saying that they suffered racism in Brazil, I believe it but it was from rich brazilians that treat everyone like crap if they not rich. Don't flatter yourself thinking they treated you bad just because you are black. They do it to everyone.
I can't wait to return to live in Brazil where I can embrace all sides of my ethnicity: Italian, portuguese, African and Indian and I can be ME , simply just BRASILEIRA!!
...
written by e harmony, January 21, 2007
Bo, I have a little story for you
written by Adrianaa, 2007-01-20 19:29:58

On the first year I was here, I was taking English classes in SF, I had a Brazilian male classmate, he was a lawyer in SP. He was very sweet. One day we were having a class discussion ( teacher and the other students from different nationalities) and the law subject came into the discussion, everybody was envited to give an opinion on the subject. My Brazilian classmate was quick to share his view. He said that in Brazil if one has a "curso superior" BA, and above, this person if commit a crime, has the right to go to a special JAIL or PRISON. And our teacher knowing that I was also Brazilian, looked at me and asked, " Adriana, is this true?" I said "yes". I noticed she was shocked, but she didn't want to embarass us, and she directed to the other students. But I asked her about the U.S. and she said, " Well, in here, if you commit a crime you go to NO SPECIAL jail, regardless of having as many BAs as you can have." Then it was our turn to be shocked ( my Brazilian classmate and me) On the break, we talked about it. we said to each other, " Gee, how come you know, this is so obvious, if one has a BA, or "curso superior", well, it means this person is superior, right?"......My answer today?.....WRONGGGGG!!!.....


Your teacher is not entirely accurate. And frankly neither one of you are worth your degrees or potential degrees. If you are educated in the United States you are internationally damning the images of U.S. centers of higher learning. De facto the federal pen is were most college educated criminals will go (assuming they are not just tried in Civil Court and fined) and the state prison is were the vast majority of non-college educate criminals will go. Is there a difference? Yes, including in conjugal terms.

Frankly the way all your posts read, you don't make Brazil look bad, you make the United States look like a warehouse for the intellectually challenged.
A Brazilian you are wrong
written by Adrianaa, January 21, 2007
The two people that called me "Macaca" were Costinha, and the other person you'll find on the other thread ( that one that got 300 comments) at almost at the end of it.
Bo did not called me "Macaca" but you like to twist things, so I can't help.
It is funny how you manage to scape from the topics being discussed. I made a point about that law, remember? And you answered, " Is a minor point to the state of Brazil Prison System." The justice "Minister" Thomas Bastos did not and does not think this law is fair, so he wanted to change it, but it didn't work. My father does not like this law either. And if he does not like this law because he thinks is not fair, oh! my, I believe him. My father is considered to be one of the best in my city, there were a few times he refused to send black kids and/or poor kids to the FEBEM, and instead called their mothers, and he told these kids in front of their mothers, "Do you see your mom crying? Do you want her to be visiting you on the FEBEM ON SUNDAYS? DO YOU WANT TO MESS UP WITH YOUR LIFE FOREVER?" Then, he would let these kids go...or the other time that a PM ( military police) brought a black guy to the police department where my father was in charge: the PM took this guy out of the back of the car by punching and kicking him, my father told the PM, "get the h**l of your hands out of him, you did your job in bringing him here, now hit the road" Of course the PM wasn't happy about that, and he tryed to create a situation to my father, but it didn't work. This is a danger job, specially with the kind of approach my father has, he is more a sociologist than a ".............." He can get a retirement, but he believes in giving his contribution to the society. And he is the one that thinks this law is just unfair, that does not fit in a democratic society.
And you know why?
Because, poor people in Brazil don't have 600 reais a month to pay private schools tuition, so they go to public schools, to watch shootings and drug dealers to trade their "goods."
eventually, they will try "Vestibular", but they also don't have money for "Cursinho de Vestibular", so do you think they'll pass PUBLIC OR PRESTIGIOUS UNIVERSITIES LIKE USP?...UNICAMP?...UNB?...GETULIO VARGAS?...ESCOLA PAULISTA DE MEDICINA?...ITA?....INATEL?...AND SO ON?....Of course not....So the poor and it happens to be black is already out of the game....Now comes the lower middle class, and middle class....THEY WILL PASS "VESTIBULAR" BUT IS GOING TO BE FOR PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES...AND YOU WELL KNOW THE PRICE AND QUALITY OF THESE INSTITUTIONS...AND YOU KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN?...(I READ THIS ARTICLE IN THE FEMALE MAGAZINE NOVA-COSMOPOLITAN)....A RISING NUMBER OF YOUNG BRAZILIAN WOMEN ARE GOING TO ENTER PROSTITUTION, BECOME A CALL GIRL IN ORDER TO PAY THEIR TUITION, IS SAD BUT IT IS TRUE, I READ THEIR STORIES....
Now comes my point....these Brazilian people that could not get a BA because of lack of opportunities....they will go on with their lives...and if they commit a crime or rob food in order to eat or be accused of something and have no means to prove their innocence; they will end up in the many Brazilian's "Carandirus" with no right to a "Special Prison." Why? HOW COME PAULO MALUF GOT A SPECIAL PRISON, AND ALREADY GOT OUT OF THERE? AND WHY THE ORDINARY POOR AND BLACK BRAZILIAN CITIZEN COULDN'T AND CAN'T ? IF THE BRAZILIAN STATE CAN'T OFFER EQUAL RIGHTS TO HER CITIZENS BECAUSE OF FUNDING; SO WHY SHE GIVES THIS PRIVILEGY TO PAULO MALUF THOUGH? DO I NEED TO REMIND YOU ABOUT WHO PAULO MALUF IS AND WHAT HE HAS DONE? I GUESS NO...
Jesus, and you call yourself Harmony?
written by Adrianaa, January 21, 2007
I'm sure you did not forgive me from the other thread, for some reason, and I think I know why.
But you don't need to be rude, and lower your level. Because, I really don't care what you think about my education. On the other hand, I do care what my male and female professors have to say about me, or maybe their degrees and Phgs are also worthless, who knows.
But you know what? You are really doing me a favor. Now I'm going to ask myself, what am I doing in here? Just now I realize how much I have exposed myself, by telling personal stories, and my experiences in The U.S. And Brazil, and for what, people don't give a D**N.
To be honest with you, I don't have experience in posting comments in the internet forums. What I like most is to have conversations with people looking in their eyes, I like to hear and be heard, in that way there is less room for misunderstandings. Whereas in an internet forum like this one, people twist your words, go off topic, personal attack and the worst of all, judge someone without even knowing the person.
But I take it as an experience, though.
Anna Paula
written by GTY, January 21, 2007
I can't wait until you return to Brazil either. I am so tired of all the Brazilians who have been here for years, sucking up our resources, paying no taxes, having 4 or 5 kids, committing crimes. You mention you came from a poor family, I'll bet you know live in a house, have a car, nice clothes...and you trash the US. Please, take the 30 grand, or what ever you have saved and go back...and tell everyone back home, white, black or pink to stay there too. Yes we have many people here who are not sensitive to race, I am married to a Brazilian, Know lots of Brazilian many are friends and many are the most selfesh, racist people on the face of the earth. In fact, some of those who came here from the most poor, are the ones who look down on the newly arrived poor, I'll bet you were one of them. The one thing I will say is that the women from Brazil are a great piece of ass!
Really...no kidding
written by GTY, January 21, 2007
In Miami, if you know the clubs the Brazilian hang out in...you are gaurenteed a hook up! It's awesome!
Really...no kidding
written by GTY, January 21, 2007
In Miami, if you know the clubs the Brazilian hang out in...you are gaurenteed a hook up! It's awesome!
...
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
Adriana: you are out of your mind. There are several private colleges that are good and not every women become a prostitute. What the f**k you are talking about!? Even the minority of the minotiry of the minority that do become a prostitute, they do it because they like it. They aren't working to pay for their food, since they are middle class at least.

GTY: Have you gotten irritated with her testimony about the realities of living in the US?

I think you should complain with your own government that does nothing to prevent illegal immigrants from getting into the US. They could penalize the business men that employ such people, that's not difficult to find out if they wanted to. Nobody would go there to go hungry. They go because the businesses and organized crime work together for providing them jobs.

The term "interracial" is the most offending term ever invented, I have to agree with her. It's quite funny when some american come all proud to speak about the number of "interracial" marriages, as if it was something from another planet.

I wouldn't be surprised if the description of your friends is correct, why do you think they went to the US in the first place? Let's just say they weren't the smartest people in Brazil. smilies/smiley.gif

Just don't come teaching anything, you live around labels and like labeling people as if they were animals. You are the one that should learn a thing or two from us.
No kidding again
written by GTY, January 21, 2007
I have learned a few things from Brazilians, that they are great at cutting my grass, washing my cars and cleaning my pool. Have a great day...I love Miami!
...
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
Yes, you are right. Only the dumbest of the dumb go illegally to the US. If they were in Brazil they would probably be doing the same kind of jobs or unemployed. Is your wife illegal? Aren't you affraid your children will be born dumb?
Don't shoot the messenger!
written by a human being...nothing more, nothing less, January 21, 2007
No one is trying to convince anyone here that there is injustice in Brazil where a few see none. Ask those Brazilains who started and who read the following site what their motives were (http://www.mundonegro.com.br/). If everything were alright, there would be no reason to unite (rhyme unintended)! Based upon many of the comments here of those in denial, there is an evil Black American behind it who convinced these people that they have a problem.

Should I believe that it's a coincidence that in Brazil, most of those impoverished are people of a browner shade? Things just worked themselves out that way over time too, right? Thats what many here would like me to believe. Just because someone brings to light injustice initially based upon ancestry - eventually evolving into color - then evolving into class - this in no way incinuates "racist" behaviour by the person reporting their observations. To call them "racist" means that you yourself don't know what the term means. Call them anything but "racist"

Nothing I said earlier on was "facist". Funny how buzz words were used in that response to my post with the purpose of getting people riled up and on their side as if there are only 2 sides to this discussion. A reference was also made to "Nazi"s - thrown in there, for affect. The only reason people of color in the US are further along than they were post slavery era is because of the demands made on to the establishment over time. Public protest, armed conflict and political action all contributed to the positive outcomes and gains made before, as well as during the civil rights era in the US. Without these actions, the news and the the novelas in the US may still lack the represntation of many of its viewers (of color).

The roots of my family tree are all from the southern US. I remember asking my grandfather when he was alive if he had "suffered" any injustice or oppression in the south during his lifetime (1900s - 1990s). He responded by saying that he didnt suffer. The sad thing is that he also would add thatt he didnt suffer becasue "he knew his place". Since he never openly challenged the oppressive system of segregation in the south, he lived a hard, yet "peaceful" life. Does this mean that there was also no injustice??? History has proven that of course there was alot of it. Don't shoot the messenger!
...
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
Whatever your grandfather suffered or didn't suffer has nothing to do with Brazil. When ill clueless americans realize that?

There has been some small movements, nothing too big, of a few people that believe race matters. Usually those losers that didn't achieve anything in life. As a mixed person myself I can tell you they are just using the same ideology from the United States in order to get anything. Working is not what they like it seems.

If you want to force something upon a population, then, yes, you are facist. in the case of Brazil it will be wide majority of the population. As I said earlier, I won't rest until I see this race disease away from my country. Brazil has many problems already, we don't need this one.

BTW, you have absolutely no data to prove the majority of people is "browner shade" and even if they were, they have many ancestors, I don't a reason to call them "african" anything, no more than "european" or "native" anything.
CONGRATULATIONS
written by a human being...nothing more, nothing less, January 21, 2007
hahaha . You are the accused, the judge and the jury and seem to know everything there is to know about this subject. My story about my grandfather is very relevant, but it takes a bit of intelligence to make to connection. You are proving yourself to be someone I am glad I do not know in person and gladly NOT a representation of the little bit of Brazil, that I do know.

Since you are the LOUDEST, I guess that means you win! CONGRATULATIONS on getting the last word.
...
written by Ric, January 21, 2007
Paulo Francis had a lot more insight into New York than the average New Yorker. Germaine Greer knows more about river boating from Pirapora to Petrolina than some boob stuck in a two bedroom flat in some southern megalopolis watching tv and surfing the web. These are the exceptions. But I remember a guy telling me, Eu conheco o meu povo. But he´s never been anywhere but interior Ceará and Manaus. So if those are the people he means, fine, but my point is that he doesn´t really know Brazil as a whole and pretending otherwise is mere cant.
...
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
Ric, you are hilarious. Here you are contesting people that were born in here, and lived in here all their lives, and saw first hand the life in a the brazilian society and how it works! Isn't it a total lack of humbleness? I guess you can see better through a biased article than I through all my life, hummm... I guess not.
...
written by A brazilian, January 21, 2007
You are the accused, the judge and the jury and seem to know everything there is to know about this subject.


I live here and have seen people of different origins living together since always. That's more than you know for sure. At least we don't call marriages "interracial" and we don't segregate people based on color.

Americans, get some other country to screw up.
...
written by e harmony, January 21, 2007
Big Brother Brasil
written by Luca, Rome, 2007-01-19 07:39:16

http://bbb.globo.com/BBB7/Internas/0,,7531,00.html

16 contestants, 15 white and 1 black!


Are all of them white because you want to see them as white because you wish to see Brazil as hyper-racist or are they in fact objectively white meaning essentially no subjectivity required in the judgment of "white"? Would Bruno or Felipe still be white if they were Arab, Muslim, and living in the Middle East or North Africa?

I ask because while you judge all of those contestants "white" if they were in the United States you (and most Americans [USA]) would likely judge Felipe, Bruno, and possibly Juliana as "Latino" or "Hispanic" in other words which by implications in the United States infers "non-white." For example, Oscar Dela Hoya the famous boxer now promoter, who known to have moistened the panties of so many young Latinas in the U.S. just by his mere picture would look as "white" as Felipe or Bruno in a facial picture next to those guys, but in the United States Oscar is considered "non-white" and a Mexican-American who has made a great American story rising out of East Los Angeles.

People see what they want to see to *prove* their own preconceived notions. Since Oscar Dela Hoya and Hugo Chavez both have Amerindian mixture in them they could rightly be considered "Native American" by U.S. popular standards but the United States does not see them as such because socially and politically it is beneficial for the U.S. to reject applying the U.S. own racial standards towards people like them because to do so would require the logical conclusion that racially Mexico and Venezuela are not just predominately "Native American" countries but ruled by "Native Americans."

In the United States today many Amerindians, referred to as "Native Americans," are mixed and look like Analy, Alberto, Bruna, and Fernando Luiz and they fulfill requirements for Affirmative Action when throwing jobs to minority owned contractors and et cetera.
...
written by e harmony, January 21, 2007

(assuming they are not just tried in Civil Court and fined).


Edit that to say or add: and required to pay restitution.
Brazuca, Ana Paula, and of course, A Brazilian
written by The American Historian, January 22, 2007
Boy, quite a few shells were fired at me as I slept last night in the bastion of racism that is the United States. In fact, I plan to physically attack every white man I come across for the rest of today seeing how much I hate all of them and they all hate me. If only I lived in Brazil.....

"This is evident in their contrasting histories, where Brazil was essentially colour-blind and the U.S. was, to say the least colour-conscious."

Brazuca, are you for real? I have read other posts from you and from what I understand you are from Central Africa--maybe a Tutsi--and now live in Australia. If I am wrong please correct me, and I have thought that the African American residing in Brazil, Adrianerik has come down a bit hard on you before. But after reading your above statement about Brazil having a "colour blind" history I can see he was right. That statement alone should disqualify you from any serious discussion about Brazil's racial situation, that is if you are who you claim to be.

Ana Paula

"....I have strangers walked to me and asked: What are you? Like I am some kind of weird animal or species...."

Probably Ana, they are giving you a compliment and just curious. Many people in this country think Latin American women are rather exotic looking and pretty. And some American men especially are not use to seeing women who do not have the standard Northern European look. At Vanderbilt University in the U.S. some American black women have to endure white college boys running up to them and being physically fondled--and keep in mind these are American black women, so foreign looking and sounding women would seem even more exotic. Some Americans--men and women--are not quite sure about how to react when they are around folks who look different from them. And it isn't just you. Check out many of the discussions about any well-known American celebrities that have even the slightest non-European look and the question inevitably gets asked "what is he/she? Is he biracial/mixed" and so forth. Do not react negatively . I endured many stares when I was a light skinned black kid living in mostly white neighborhoods in the sixties and seventies and if anything the racism was worse then than now. Most of the looks I got were just out of curiosity. So I say just roll with it.

Now your statement that the Brazilian elites discriminate mainly based on class and that race is rarely if ever a factor does not hold up. Simply because white elites also treat poorer whites like crap does not mean they are not racist toward nonwhites. In the American South we have always had poor whites living side-by-side poor blacks. These rich whites do not treat these whites much better than blacks, but NOBODY would say the existence of poor whites in the U.S. is proof no racism exists against black Americans. Your country has historically had a majority black/brown population. The fact that very few folks without white skin are among your elites is prima facie proof of racial exclusion--just as it is among America's Southern White elites. And as Wells asks, with such a large black and brown population, why are non-whites largely excluded from the media in Brazil? As I believe Luca from Rome stated above, how could one have a reality show in which only one out of the fifteen Brazilian participants is a preto or pardo when at least one out of two Brazilians are in this category?
Nobody could imagine a situation in the United States where 80 to 90 percent of the folks you saw in the U.S. media were black or Hispanic (there's that word again) and very few were white. That would be ridiculous, and yes, racist.

And yes, my own black American community has long struggled with the same issues, so maybe in a way they feel a kinship with Brazil. We have a color focus too--it has always been easier for lighter-skinned American blacks (or who you would call pardos
or mulattoes) to rise in the U.S. than darker-skinned blacks. 50 years ago my father was one of the two percent of black American men (at that time) who got a college education--which made him a prime catch for all black American women. A much higher percentage of all blacks were poor at that time. He picked my mother--who is light-skinned, and she and her kids had a much better life. Thus, it is tougher for a darker skinned black American woman to find a shining prince who will lift her out of poverty than a lighter-skinned woman. I was fortunate that my mother was light-skinned, or my life probably would have been tougher. Does this remind you of the situation in any other country you know of ? How many successful Brazilian men have dark-skinned wives?



...
written by e harmony, January 22, 2007
Jesus, and you call yourself Harmony?
written by Adrianaa, 2007-01-21 08:56:09

I'm sure you did not forgive me from the other thread, for some reason, and I think I know why.
But you don't need to be rude, and lower your level. Because, I really don't care what you think about my education. On the other hand, I do care what my male and female professors have to say about me, or maybe their degrees and Phgs are also worthless, who knows.
But you know what? You are really doing me a favor. Now I'm going to ask myself, what am I doing in here? Just now I realize how much I have exposed myself, by telling personal stories, and my experiences in The U.S. And Brazil, and for what, people don't give a D**N.
To be honest with you, I don't have experience in posting comments in the internet forums. What I like most is to have conversations with people looking in their eyes, I like to hear and be heard, in that way there is less room for misunderstandings. Whereas in an internet forum like this one, people twist your words, go off topic, personal attack and the worst of all, judge someone without even knowing the person.
But I take it as an experience, though.


Adrianna - and I'm assuming here you are actually Brazilian and not some male gringo acting as a female Brazilian - for a professor in any U.S. college or university to make a comment like college education is not considered in the court of law, by a sentencing Judge dressed in a black robe*, is the height of academic irresponsibility. I've been through the U.S. court and legal system and I can tell you it is a fact that your past social accomplishments or lack of is considered in your sentencing. I mean U.S. Federal prisons often have cells that look like small college dorms, they look like 5 star hotels compared to most state prisons (some of which acquire the telling nicknames of "gladiator school"). One can receive conjugal visits from their spouses in Federal prisons but you can't in any of the state prison I know of. Generally speaking, in the United States, college educated people go to Federal prisons and poor non-college educated peoples go to state prisons. If you are young (below the age of 30 or 35) non-college educated you may very well get sent to one of the state prisons known as "gladiator school."

Having said all that, I am appalled in Brazilian televised media in their lack of greater racial diversity. Having read The Emperor's Beard in the past I understand - or so I am lead to believe - that Brazil as a nation state, and more especially as represented by her ruling class, has always had a self-conscious image problem in how she felt she looked to Western Europe and the United States. Early in the 1800's the U.S. ruling elite and the European ruling elite would make fun of Brazil because they had 'to many' black peoples and mixed peoples. Dom Pedro II court was especially made fun of due to its ever present blacks and mulattas. Consequently Brazilian ruling elite and to some extent Brazilian overall culture has tried to impress the United States and Europe with its "civilized" whiteness so to speak.

The 21st century has tilted in social favor of Brazilian racially and cultural diversity and harmonizing. The United States and Europe realize this and that is why "mixed-race" recognition and the so called "multiculturalism" are growing rapidly. Brazil has leverage to increase its social prestige if it capitalizes on it's natural diversity, invests in job creation and universal education of its people, rather than holding on to traditions such as "morality" will increase the living standards and quality of life of the Brazilian poor. To think this way requires an intuition for what the 21st century is moving towards. It is also likely China will become in the near future to big dog on the block (at least economically) and the United States will take 2nd place position kind of like the British roll to the United States today.

The other thing is San Fransisco is one of the cities in the United States I most admire. I have never been there but all I have ever read on her (which has not been much) has some what captivated me. SF is kind of like a small metaphorical Brazil within the United States (minus the violence - SF is a lot more safe than any Brazilian large city and most U.S. cities for that matter). SF is savy and cosmopolitan as well as creative and bent on doing things her own way.

*Look up the historicity behind the black robe - it certainly has nothing to do with egalitarianism - it has to do with aristocratic favoritism.
A Brazilian
written by The American Historian, January 22, 2007
Where did I say Brazil had an "anglo-saxon culture." I think you must have me confused with someone else.

And I never said most Brazilians are feudal-like, I said its elites behave in a premodern feudal-like way. All around the world elites who originally had their wealth in land have behaved this way and societies have always been better off when they were removed from power. This includes England's after its Glorious Revolution in the 17th Century; the French after their revolution of the 1790's (notwithstanding the return of the Bourbons to power in circa 1815); the success of Abraham Lincoln and others at removing the slave owners from power in the U.S. government and destroying them as a class by emancipating their slaves, and so forth. Most Latin Ameircan societies--including Brazil--have not succeeded in liberating their lands from these ruling families who have run things for some 500 years. And yes, they are very similar to the American South's white ruling class. Latin American elites imitate old Southern European nobility; white Southern elites imitate British nobility.

I realize how large and diverse Latin America is; but any expert (and I am not an expert) will confirm how corrosive that region's ruling families have been on their populations.

There is notheing wrong with Brazil being Brazil, as long as you realize that does not mean being Portugal, Italy or Spain. Most of Brazil is black and brown, regardless of what you see in the Brazilian media.

And finally, black Americans do not seek to make Brazil Africa. If you go to any blog discussions between black Americans and Africans you will see the two groups have a complicated relationship. Many discussions veer back and forth between expressions of solidarity and fierce criticism; kinship followed by mistrust; calls for support alongside the repeating of age-old stereotypes and so forth. If you do not know this A Brazilian, then you are the one who needs to read more.

Peace my folks.
Citations
written by The American Historian, January 22, 2007
For a book citing how premodern elites differ from their more modern thinking counterparts A Brazilian, I refer you to the American author Michael Lind's most recent book on Texan George W. Bush. Texas is a Southern state and George Bush is a product of it's premodern way of thinking--which explains many of his screw-ups.
I can refer one to the specific pages where he discusses premodern elites in the U.S. South and Latin America on Monday.
The Title
written by The American Historian, January 22, 2007
Lind's book is titled "George W. Bush and the Southern Takeover of American Politics."
...
written by love Tracy Chapman, January 22, 2007
I see no reasons to demonize Brazilians just like Americans did with Saddam Hussein and iraqis... smilies/cry.gif

Did Americans learned something since 2001? It seems black ppl here shows their complex sentiments. I feel sorry for this, this is more a problem than a solution.
...
written by Ana Paula Hubert, January 22, 2007
For GTY:

I come from a very poor family but that didn't stop from succeeding in life. I left my home town(of 5,000 people) moved to the big city with no money at age 16 to pursue my dreams. Went though hard times but by the time I was 18, I was already in a good place. The color of your skin is not the reason for anyone to not suceed. I pay my taxes, I came to this country legally and do not have 4-5 kids, just one that has a duo-nationality. I moved here because of my husband job and I work here also. I plan on moving back in 5 years because I missed my family too much and the laid-back attitude of the people.
I dont know if anyone took a look at my page but I was trying to point out that I am consider white by Brazilians and have suffered the same discrimination from the Elite Brazilians which makes about 10% of the population. So saying that Brazil is racist country is just wrong since only 10% of the are racist when in the US is about 60%.
I think is wrong to approach strangers on the street and ask "what are they? I feel offended not flatter. Also to ask how is to be married to a different race to me or my husband.
I have never received any benefits of the US goverment, pay my taxes and believe in making a honest living and the money I made here belong to my hard work not living and depending on anyone else.
At the moment I am a model as well an exotic dancer in the USA because I couldn't find a job here that pay well. I was a translator in Brazil. I do very well on my job since I have the exotic appeal to men. It is not my dream job but it pays well...
...
written by love Tracy Chapman, January 22, 2007
Important work!
written by Brazuca, 2007-01-21 04:05:01

"...all I can do is to leave a message in here for future visitors not to think that these little stories, wrong numbers and made up facts are for real."

You're doing very important work, A Brazilian!

When anyone with a slight interest in Brazil googles the country, this site will be one of the top returns, if not on the first page Google brings up, then on the second.

The potential for people curious about Brazil to be maleducated about the situation in the country is huge if they see articles like that of Mark Wells go published uncontested. The impression of Brazil, erected upon such a shoddy foundation as the testimony of Mark Wells and his ilk, insures any understanding progressively built from there will be flimsy at best. And such is the tide of misunderstanding such misinformation can cause that it can threaten to overwhelm Brazilians themselves, breaking any levees of commonsense that may have thus far served to keep such nonsense at bay.

I don't think, however, the US Americans have malicious intentions in all this. It's just that they are only able to interpret things within the framework of their own national experience, which has of course been characterised by an ungodly obsession with race. Latin and Germanic people have fundamentally different governing frameworks of interpretation and comprehension, resulting in strikingly different ways of thinking about such things as race. This is evident in their contrasting histories, where Brazil was essentially colour-blind and the US was, to say the least, very colour-conscious.

But as I said, your contribution serves the purpose of setting the matter straight for thousands of visitors, or at least offers a challenge to the impression that may be made suggesting the nonsence peddled by the likes of Mark Wells is settled truth. And, yes, I did say thousands of visitors: I remember this site advertising around the time I first visited it that it receives around 5,000 visitors a day. I'm not sure if that's still the case, but if it is, your efforts championing the truth are certainly important and valuable.

Keep up the good work!


that was nice comment after all. Brazil is a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY, it hasn't a national profit much smaler than US. I see no point Americans or not compare USA's conditions of black ppl with Brazil's.. Maybe this is too mcuh for them to see it, they just see what they want I gues. Stop being prejudiced against Brazil and you will learn more...
A Brazilian
written by GTY, January 22, 2007
No, my wife, thank God is a naturalized American. My kids git the American side one up in Boston at BU the other 2 doing quite well thank you...oh, I am very happy they all speak Portuguese fluently, I really hope they find Brazilian wives as well.
...
written by love Tracy Chapman, January 22, 2007
* I meant Brazil hasn't got a national total profit as USA's....
...
written by Ana Paula Hubert, January 22, 2007
TO GTY:

Very happy for your wife naturalization. I came after 9/11 and have been here for 4 years now(3 year green card and 1 year extension stamp) waiting on my 10 year green card. My son came here when he was 5 months old he has duo-citizenship and does not speak Portuguese yet since I am the only Portuguese speaker in the house. Also he has to go to the school here and I didn't want him to be behind on other kids. Just now I started to teach him Portuguese.
I have been to Boston tons of Brazilians and Portuguese people much easier to adapt and less discrimination. I live on the West coast( much different here). I hope my son marry a brazilian girl too so I can have beautiful exotic grandchildrensmilies/smiley.gif
USA just the same...
written by Joao carlos, January 22, 2007
Just take a look at the Hollywood movies, is Rede Globo just different? Because the Americans through the Hollywood lenses are mostly white and green / blued eyes...
...
written by e harmony, January 22, 2007
written by Ana Paula Hubert, 2007-01-21 21:02:32

For GTY:

I come from a very poor family but that didn't stop from succeeding in life. I left my home town(of 5,000 people) moved to the big city with no money at age 16 to pursue my dreams. Went though hard times but by the time I was 18, I was already in a good place. The color of your skin is not the reason for anyone to not suceed. I pay my taxes, I came to this country legally and do not have 4-5 kids, just one that has a duo-nationality. I moved here because of my husband job and I work here also. I plan on moving back in 5 years because I missed my family too much and the laid-back attitude of the people.
I dont know if anyone took a look at my page but I was trying to point out that I am consider white by Brazilians and have suffered the same discrimination from the Elite Brazilians which makes about 10% of the population. So saying that Brazil is racist country is just wrong since only 10% of the are racist when in the US is about 60%.
I think is wrong to approach strangers on the street and ask "what are they? I feel offended not flatter. Also to ask how is to be married to a different race to me or my husband.
I have never received any benefits of the US goverment, pay my taxes and believe in making a honest living and the money I made here belong to my hard work not living and depending on anyone else.
At the moment I am a model as well an exotic dancer in the USA because I couldn't find a job here that pay well. I was a translator in Brazil. I do very well on my job since I have the exotic appeal to men. It is not my dream job but it pays well...


Ana Paula, I never read through 90% of this thread, and my time must be spent in study amongst other things, but when I read this post of yours and the comment you placed a web page up - in this thread - with a photograph of yourself, I was intrigued and scrolled backwards to find out in what post you might have done that. I found the post and clicked on the myspace dot com link you offered but unfortunately the link wouldn't work for me.

Can I ask you to repost another link with your photo. While I'm certain you look nice since you dance, I am more intrigued to find out what qualifies as "white" by Brazilians by seeing your photo. I'm on the Brazzil forum under the same handle ("e harmony") if you prefer PM'ing it instead of linking it in this thread.

American Historian
written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
Most Latin Ameircan societies--including Brazil--have not succeeded in liberating their lands from these ruling families who have run things for some 500 years.


Wait a minute, do you think Brazil is all about farms? Just answer this question. Nowadays what generates wealth is the knowledge and intellect, not only "land". Besides, how do you picture a typical brazilian city? A big farm full of small houses around for the slaves/brown people to live with the bare minimum!? Please, review your notions.

The parallel you try to draw here is simply incorrect.

Why in the name of God if you aren't calling yourself "African" americans will accuse of "trying to impress europeans". I am s**tting for europeans and what they think. This country has been free for hundreds of years and we couldn't care less about it. It happens that this "afrika über alles" notion is simply ridiculous, we are all brazilians, you like it or not.
Think twice American Historian
written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
I can refer one to the specific pages where he discusses premodern elites in the U.S. South and Latin America on Monday.


Are you aware that "Latin America" (Brazil and all other hispano-parlantes) is many times bigger than the US in size and have more than 400 million people? Are you sure you want to reduce many different cultures (you believe it or not, each country has its culture and the population was formed by different peoples) to some simplistic generalization?

I think you would do better if you could pinpoint where the problems are, specifically, if you can. Have you checked the size of Brazil in a map? Are you aware that Brazil is like many countries in one, with the difference that everyone speaks portuguese?

...
written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
Do not react negatively . I endured many stares when I was a light skinned black kid living in mostly white neighborhoods in the sixties and seventies and if anything the racism was worse then than now. Most of the looks I got were just out of curiosity. So I say just roll with it.


Wow, americans discriminate and label others like animals but we shouldn't care, should we? Instead let's just bash Brazil and implement in their country the same kind of racism...

Stop promoting this hate group agenda.
E-Harmony, I thought about ignoring you after that post But....
written by Adrianaa, January 22, 2007
I'm not good at ignoring people, although, I need to learn since it is an important tool in Psychology......Ignoring bad behavior, and reinforcing the good one.
So I'm reinforcing your good behavior now.
I never said that the information I got about that "law" was from a college professor. It was from my English teacher in SF( it was a small English School) I don't even know if she had a degree to be teaching English. It was on my first year in the U.S., I didn't even speak English at that time.

You wrote: " Adrianna - and I'm assuming here you are actually Brazilian and not some male gringo acting as a female Brazilian"
Gee!! Harmony is the second time you mention that, why? Are you biased? do you think Brazilian Women are not capable of engaging themselves in a nice debate?
You wrote:
"The 21st century has tilted in social favor of Brazilian racially and cultural diversity and harmonizing. The United States and Europe realize this and that is why "mixed-race" recognition and the so called "multiculturalism" are growing rapidly. Brazil has leverage to increase its social prestige if it capitalizes on it's natural diversity, invests in job creation and universal education of its people, rather than holding on to traditions such as "morality" will increase the living standards and quality of life of the Brazilian poor. To think this way requires an intuition for what the 21st century is moving towards."
I totally agree with that, however, the Brazilian society still has work to do, we have the potential and resources to achieve that, but to think that there is a "race paradise" in Brazil; it's just a wrong way to start.
You wrote:
"likely China will become in the near future to big dog on the block (at least economically) and the United States will take 2nd place position kind of like the British roll to the United States today."
I don't agree with you on China though specially after that incident last week on the satellite. I read an interesting article in The Guardian today, "China's success in destroying a weather satellite out in space should be a warning to the world."
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,1995252,00.html
Yes, San Francisco is just beautifulllll!
...
written by e harmony, January 22, 2007
E-Harmony, I thought about ignoring you after that post But....
written by Adrianaa, 2007-01-21 23:12:27

I'm not good at ignoring people, although, I need to learn since it is an important tool in Psychology......Ignoring bad behavior, and reinforcing the good one.
So I'm reinforcing your good behavior now.


Wow. Thanks. I'll be eternally indebted.


I never said that the information I got about that "law" was from a college professor. It was from my English teacher in SF( it was a small English School) I don't even know if she had a degree to be teaching English. It was on my first year in the U.S., I didn't even speak English at that time.

You wrote: " Adrianna - and I'm assuming here you are actually Brazilian and not some male gringo acting as a female Brazilian"
Gee!! Harmony is the second time you mention that, why? Are you biased? do you think Brazilian Women are not capable of engaging themselves in a nice debate?


No I think Brazilian women are awesome, capable, and if they are loyal to Brazil probably twice the person that I'll ever be. What lends me to wonder if you are a gringo male is your diction and tone in your posts. One of the big ones was your choice in a past thread, describing the U.S. Civil War as something of "beauty." I have never even heard white Southern women proud of their southern heritage describe that brutal epoch known as the U.S. Civil War as beautiful. That war left men walking around with scarfs of sort covering their lower face where they had their lower jaws blown off. It left towns looking like a small nuke had been dropped in it, and brothers slaughtering brothers. I only know of men (the male sex) that describe certain acts of virtue within a given combat as something of "beauty" (and often times rightly so), I know of no peace loving woman that describes the apocalyptic hell of the U.S. Civil War as "beautiful." That war makes your recent Sao Paulo and Rio de Janiero gang attacks on city police, citizens, banks and infrastructure look like Disney Land. Some have even suggested that the U.S. Civil War is what ultimately made U.S. people (by culture and consequently individuals) into tough as nails persons.

I'm glad that I don't know you
written by Adrianaa, January 22, 2007
I'm sad that you are really twisting everything I write. I went back to the other thread to check what I wrote. I simply wrote the beauty of the IDEAL OF: declaration of independence, revolution war, civil war and other things...I didn't write the beauty of the civil war in specific....I wrote the word ideal in front....you need to look in the context, not take certain words and make something big out of it. By beauty I mean, was to liberate the slaves, and there were other motivations to go to war of course, now because of that your saying I like the disgrace that happenned with the people in the civil war?
Are You scared of INTELLIGENT WOMAN? THATS THE ONLY QUESTION I CAN COME UP WITH, I'M SORRY BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO BE DUMB AND SUBSERVIENT TO MAN, I'M NOT YET MARRIED BECAUSE I WANT MY EDUCATION FIRST, AND ALSO DIDN'T WANT TO MARRY FOR PAPERS, AND YOU KNOW WHY ? BECAUSE I LOVE MEN SO MUCH THAT I DON'T WANT TO HURT THEIR FEELINGS, LIKE SO MANY STORIES I HAVE SEEM IN HERE. I GOT MY LEGAL STATUS THROUGH OTHER WAY, THAN MARRIAGE. And the funny thing is that you couldn't get my nice joke that I was reinforcing your good behavior. The men I have been dating they love these kinds of jokes and talkings.....
You loose your temper very easy don't you, or is it just on the internet forum? You don't need to answer, just think, because I'm not gonna come back here to check, I'm very busy this semester.
...
written by e harmony, January 22, 2007
I'm glad that I don't know you
written by Adrianaa, 2007-01-22 02:08:37

I'm sad that you are really twisting everything I write. I went back to the other thread to check what I wrote. I simply wrote the beauty of the IDEAL OF: declaration of independence, revolution war, civil war and other things...I didn't write the beauty of the civil war in specific....I wrote the word ideal in front....you need to look in the context, not take certain words and make something big out of it. By beauty I mean, was to liberate the slaves, and there were other motivations to go to war of course...


The Civil War was over slavery but it was not over the freeing of slaves. It was a war fought by the industrial North and the plantation South over who's vision of means of labor to produce wealth was going to win in the Industrial Era. Consequently the war was fought because the North was willing to allow the South to maintain slavery but not its expansion westward as the South wanted. You are utterly wrong that the war was waged to free slaves. In similar regards the Revolutionary War was fought not for universal suffrage for white men let alone Amerindians, black peoples, or women. The Revolutionary War was waged so wealthy men in that North American British colony could become wealthier. "The beauty," yes beauty in Brazilian history in relation to these social movements is that the Brazilian people were able to transition to both the abolition of slavery and the forming of Republic without any major war to be fought. After all isn't the "beauty" inherent in Jesus vision the one of non-violence or least amount of violence required for change, isn't in the non-violence approach of the Civil Rights movement we remember Dr. Martin Luther King for? The Declaration of Independence also calls Amerindians "savages." Which is ironic you note it for its beauty and abhor and condemn Brazil and the Brazilian people for their malevolence and ignorance concerning all things and all people racial outside of whitedom.


...now because of that your saying I like the disgrace that happenned with the people in the civil war?


No I'm saying because of your floral language upon the U.S. Civil War I question your gender and nationality. I would suspect you are a male gringo. Furthermore as supposedly corrupt, ruthless, racist, and violent Brazil is in the minds and commentary of you and others of your ilk, I have to ask how can someone coming from that environment can write as phenomenally naive as you do. You write with the mentality of a 9 year old in the United States who believes every word of history coming out of the mouths of their grade school teachers.


Are You scared of INTELLIGENT WOMAN? THATS THE ONLY QUESTION I CAN COME UP WITH, I'M SORRY BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO BE DUMB AND SUBSERVIENT TO MAN, I'M NOT YET MARRIED BECAUSE I WANT MY EDUCATION FIRST, AND ALSO DIDN'T WANT TO MARRY FOR PAPERS, AND YOU KNOW WHY ? BECAUSE I LOVE MEN SO MUCH THAT I DON'T WANT TO HURT THEIR FEELINGS, LIKE SO MANY STORIES I HAVE SEEM IN HERE. I GOT MY LEGAL STATUS THROUGH OTHER WAY, THAN MARRIAGE. And the funny thing is that you couldn't get my nice joke that I was reinforcing your good behavior. The men I have been dating they love these kinds of jokes and talkings.....
You loose your temper very easy don't you, or is it just on the internet forum? You don't need to answer, just think, because I'm not gonna come back here to check, I'm very busy this semester.


No I haven't lost my temper, but you have annoyed me several times, perhaps you shouldn't. I have no beef with Pocahontas especially given her age and time... but I would hope that "Pocahontases" would not reemerge in our own day.
Ok peace!
written by Adrianaa, January 22, 2007
I do recognize that I was very ironic and sarcastic in many of my posts to you. I apologize.
And you were rude in some of yours too, to the point of questioning my gender, and my academic integrity, and my intelectual capacity.
I don't want to contradict myself, because my first intention when I came here was for a civilized debate. But maybe I didn't make myself clear or I got defensive in my posts.
I'm not naive, I just like to see all the different aspects of a situation. And if I'm wrong I have no problem in taking responsibility for.
And on my writings about Brazil I really wish you that when you go visit her you'll be able to see the things you see now, just as I am seeing the things in the U.S. that I didn't expect when I was in Brazil. Maybe I should forgive the bad experiences I had in my culture, maybe I think I did forgave but I didn't, and my experiences is different than anyone else. But people should not tease me when I say that to be here in the SFBay area it is like to heal my wounds. I love my culture but I do need time. there is no place that is going to be perfect, but we should find one that is going to fit us, one may get surprised to find that this place can be Iran, Israel, Africa....And I think I should appreciate the one that is giving me food, dignity, respect and so on. That's my way of thinking, and you may disagree with that, that's ok.
My parents like to say ( I don't know where they got this from) "There are three truths: mine, yours, and the truthful one, but the truthful one nobody knows" maybe god knows
Ok good luck on yours studies !!
...
written by cold front, January 22, 2007
to the green card predators marrying americans to change your illegal status to legal...that is a federal offense and is punishable by up to 15 years in prison and deportation...the us is setting up immigration marriage fraud investigation offices in all major cities and local juristrictions...as far as illegal alien brazilian nationals in the us receiving amnesty from their crime of entering the us illegally or overstaying a tourist visa or fraudelent documents etc...don,t hold your breath, the majority of americans will have none of it...
To show abroad different perspective
written by Lucia fagundes, January 22, 2007
Dear Mr. Mark Wells,

Your article is one of the best I've read about the "confusion black/ whit" in Brazil.

Just to inform you about the other side of the confusion.
Other Countries have an idea about Brazil watching football games in the TV.

I've been to Iran for the holidays, I'm whit.
You know what they always say to me?
I did not know that in Brazil there was whit people like you!

Because of the football games in the TV, they see only black players.

I also was not considered the "real Brazilian" by my English teacher once.
I asked her why, she had a Brazilian friend who could dance samba and she was "mulata".

I did not know how to dance samba and was whit, so for her I was not "real Brazilian".

I must say that these happened in Saudi Arabia, that Lady (She was British) had never been to Brazil, she new nothing about Brazil.

But my point is, my be the whitening in the TV is to show abroad that in Brazil there is whit people.

I'm just guessing, and I also know that "Xuxa" did not accept black girls as her partners "as paquitas" all of them had blond hair and whit skin.


Best Regards,

Lucia Fagundes

Para Lucia
written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
I have noticed a contradiction in your text, you say "Brazil is confused", but the image of samba dancers and football players is sold to the world by the same people criticized in this article of "hiding the nonw-whites". How can it be? How can they hide the non-whites and every february and march make the same cliché stuff with TV with half-naked mulatas? How can they be "against non-whites" and at the same time allow a "non-white" society to be on TV?

It's a simple matter of logic. As a matter of fact, your example only proves the author of the text is incorrect.

I don't think Brazil should change its ways just because foreigners want to. Brazil is Brazil and should remain as it is. We have something those people, especially the british, simply can't understand.
...
written by agroup, January 22, 2007
And I never said most Brazilians are feudal-like, I said its elites behave in a premodern feudal-like way. All around the world elites who originally had their wealth in land have behaved this way and societies have always been better off when they were removed from power. This includes England's after its Glorious Revolution in the 17th Century; the French after their revolution of the 1790's (notwithstanding the return of the Bourbons to power in circa 1815); the success of Abraham Lincoln and others at removing the slave owners from power in the U.S. government and destroying them as a class by emancipating their slaves, and so forth. Most Latin Ameircan societies--including Brazil--have not succeeded in liberating their lands from these ruling families who have run things for some 500 years. And yes, they are very similar to the American South's white ruling class. Latin American elites imitate old Southern European nobility; white Southern elites imitate British nobility.

I realize how large and diverse Latin America is; but any expert (and I am not an expert) will confirm how corrosive that region's ruling families have been on their populations.

There is notheing wrong with Brazil being Brazil, as long as you realize that does not mean being Portugal, Italy or Spain. Most of Brazil is black and brown, regardless of what you see in the Brazilian media.

And finally, black Americans do not seek to make Brazil Africa. If you go to any blog discussions between black Americans and Africans you will see the two groups have a complicated relationship. Many discussions veer back and forth between expressions of solidarity and fierce criticism; kinship followed by mistrust; calls for support alongside the repeating of age-old stereotypes and so forth. If you do not know this A Brazilian, then you are the one who needs to read more.


I don't like much the "average" black American after reading Mr. American Historian... what an a*****e and stupid person. A type like that can live a thousand years in Brazil and never ever get it.... You will never be a Brazilian or seen like one Mr....

...
written by agroup, January 22, 2007
By the way I hate this Brazzil discussion "group" as well.... you ppl are ridiculous.
Para American Historian
written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
I think you should get your socio-economical figures straight. Brazil is not a rural country, therefore can't have a "white ruling elite" of land owners powerful enough to oppress the rest of the country. Your parallel with the US South is simply ridiculous, yet another perfect example of the the stupid american stereotype. The closest thing in here would be only certain areas of the Northeast, and even so they are known to be backwards relatively to the rest of the country.

More than 80% of the brazilian population live in urban centers, not rural areas. So, how can they be oppressed by the "white land owners"?

Brazil is the most industrialized country in the Latin America, with diversified industries. By that I mean, brazilian companies, not multinationals. Brazil does not rely exclusively of agriculture exports. It has been so for many decades.. The bulk of these industries are located in the Southeast, but there are many other places with them, such as the South or the North (Zona Franca de Manaus). It's not by chance the Southeast is the richest part of the country.

The most images you are fed with are from Rio de Janeiro, one of the main capitals of this country. It's there that Globo is located. So how can "white land owners" influence that?

You said black people in the US could at least move to other areas with less racism. The Southeast receives people from all over the world looking for a better life for themselves. Many people from the Northeast go there as well. You won't find more multiculturalism anywhere else. So you statements about the "impossibility" of such thing in Brazil, even if there were racism in here, is incorrect.

When I say some americans that come here are "pathetically clueless" I really mean it. They want to talk of things they have no idea about, as if they were teaching us. smilies/smiley.gif Whenever one cite Argentina or Chile as a "sign of progress" (ignoring any economical problem they had in the recent past, Argentina I am looking at you) I just laugh. No other country has an economy as diversified as Brazil.
...
written by bo, January 22, 2007
by A Brazilian

For what I understood they called you a "macaca" because your friend Bo called all brazilians macacos and Brazil a banana republic.



Hey dips**t, quit lying about me would ya?? Once again, for the fifteenth time, I NEVER called anyone a monkey! The statement that was made, and not even by me, it was posted by Grunt, and he said something to the effect of, "what do you have in a banana republic...macacos."

Can you read? I'm tired of you twisting and torting things and outright lying!! Now, if I called someone a macaco, QUOTE IT!! If you can, I swear on my daughter, I'll pay you 100,000 dollars!! I'll send it to the owner of this site and he can send it to you.....happy hunting!
...
written by Luca, Rome, January 22, 2007
White novelas...
_____________________
EXCERPT

Interview of Darlan Cunha, Laranjinha in Citade dos Homens (City of Men)
_______________________
RESENHANDO - E fazer novela não faz parte dos teus planos?
DARLAN - Dos meus sim, né? (risos!) Só que nunca me chamaram. A Regina (Casé) fala que eu tenho que ser galã de novela.


RESENHANDO - E você acha que não é possível?
DARLAN - Eu nunca vi galã preto. Ainda existe muito racismo. Mas se a Regina disse, quem sabe ela não tem algum plano para mim?
...
written by bo, January 22, 2007
by Adrianaa

The two people that called me "Macaca" were Costinha, and the other person you'll find on the other thread ( that one that got 300 comments) at almost at the end of it.
Bo did not called me "Macaca" but you like to twist things, so I can't help.


You are correct!! Grunt made the statement that I quoted above, then Costinha and someone else I believe, may have been our lying idiot A Brazilian, twisted and torted that to say that I called you a monkey.....losers!
...
written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
Luca, what's your point? How a random quote confirms whatever is written in this article? Do you know this guy? He definetely doesn't look mixed (although he could be), I think he would be part of that 6% of the census.
...
written by bo, January 22, 2007
by A Brazilian

I am not worried if they like this place or not, all I can do is to leave a message in here for future visitors not to think that these little stories, wrong numbers and made up facts are for real.



LOL...ya know, EVERYTIME that I posted STUDIES done by the BRAZILIAN GOV'T. and other NGO's you NEVER replied, or your reply was, "oh, those NGO's are anti-brazilian", lol, yeah idiot, another conspiracy.

Now, what about the studies done by YOUR OWN GOV'T?? Do you want me to post the study again about brazil's murder rate done by the brazilian gov't??? Or the study done by brazilians concerning slave labor in brazil??? Is it all a lie? Is the daily car-jackings and robbing of buses and threatening to burn eveyone inside a lie?? Is Globo lying? Are they fabricating these stories in a plot to keep foreigners and everyone else out of Rio or Sao Paulo in their secret plot together with the U.S. gov't. to overtake brazil?????
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written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
Bo, in your quest to destroy Brazil's image you mixture lots of different topics in here. This was debated in other threads and I showed you, with factual examples, how NGOs are irresponsible in showing latin america in general.

Get over it and stay on topic.
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written by bo, January 22, 2007
Now, I'm going to quote A Brazilian so everyone can see what a denying, lying, piece of garbage he is...



written by A brazilian, 2007-01-20 23:58:03

Brazilian TV is not white washed.




Huh?
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written by bo, January 22, 2007
written by a human being...nothing more, nothing less, 2007-01-20 23:59:32

Ignorance and denial are the biggest obstacles to realizing equality and achieving justice for all. Ask yourselves -what is YOUR motive for denying that there is a problem with these racialized systems?


That is ON THE MONEY! You just described A Brazilian, and unfortunately, numerous other brazilians just like him.
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written by bo, January 22, 2007
As I can tell you, there are no conspiracies for holding any brazilians down in poverty. If it is could you please do the favor of pointing it out? With a document or something?



You blind idiot!! What do you call a country that is the 11th largest economy on the planet but pays a minimum wage of the 4th lowest on the planet??? BRAZIL!

Now, why is this?

What do you call a country that makes such an absurd effort in investing in education??? Brazil!! If you like I can certainly get the numbers that brazil is investing in education, it's absurd in respect to their GNP and the educational problems that exist in brazil.

But that's the way its always been and that's the way it is today. You see, the 20,000 or so families that actually control brazil enrich themselves through the ignorance of the masses. They're able to continue to pay them a minimum wage of "miseria" and their political cronies can continue getting elected by giving out "cesta basicas" in the favelas in exchange for votes!
Numbers
written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
Numbers mean nothing without an interpretation, and yours is to destroy Brazil at any cost. If you are worried about rich families controlling some country, than you should take look at your own country, you will find them there too.

This website for brazil bashing by a bunch of ignorant gringos like you. Clean up your own country before talking of others.
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written by bo, January 22, 2007
by Brazacu

But as I said, your contribution serves the purpose of setting the matter straight for thousands of visitors, or at least offers a challenge to the impression that may be made suggesting the nonsence peddled by the likes of Mark Wells is settled truth.


Ya know, you sounded halfway intelligent until I read that! Setting the matter straight?? You have to be kidding. Have you actually read what this idiot posts?? He DENIES ALL the problems in brazil. He questions murder statistics, says they're a lie, you show him studies done by the BRAZILIAN gov't....then he just doesn't respond.

You show studies done by the U.N. in respect to many social issues, he claims they're biased against brazil.

You show studies done by brazilians in respect to slave labor in brazil......after he not only refutes them, but says the following...

"The statement that slave labor exists in brazil is a LIE, and when someone is found to be practicing this he goes to jail!"


LMAO!!!

Now, if the slave labor doesn't exist, how come people are going to jail for employing slave laborers??

This is just a few examples, this guy lives in a complete world of denial and paranoia. Everything is an american plot to take over the amazon or brazil, lmao. And naturally, all these stories that we see on globo are all fabricated horses**t, not an accurate representation of reality in brazil.

I can quote at least 2-3 other people besides myself who have stated for him to NOT twist their words. That's all he does, denies facts and takes peoples statements and said they said something other than they actually did...hell, someone said that you have macacos in a banana republic 2 weeks ago and this idiot continues to say that I not only said it, but that I called Adrianaa a monkey!

What else can you say except roll your eyes and say, "there's another one."
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written by e harmony, January 22, 2007
written by bo, 2007-01-22 11:05:21
Hey dips**t, quit lying about me would ya?? Once again, for the fifteenth time, I NEVER called anyone a monkey! The statement that was made, and not even by me, it was posted by Grunt, and he said something to the effect of, "what do you have in a banana republic...macacos."


You called A brazilian an "illiterate monkey" as I recall. Grunt then stated that your comment wasn't racist but rather your comment was in reference to monkeys being found in a Banana Republic.
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written by bo, January 22, 2007
De facto the federal pen is were most college educated criminals will go (assuming they are not just tried in Civil Court and fined) and the state prison is were the vast majority of non-college educate criminals will go. Is there a difference? Yes, including in conjugal terms.



E harmony, you're another IDIOT! People that go to federal prisons because they broke federal crimes, people go to state prisons because they broke state law, not federal!

There are jurisdictions ya know and one can't be tried in a federal court or put in a federal prison unless he's broke a federal crime!

God the ignorance never ceases to amaze!
Naiveness
written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
Bo, don't distort things. The very existence of a website in english for discussing Brazil problems is enough to suspect of bad faith. How many brazilians are fluent in english and have a computer and internet? This is

The things posted in here, like your messages, are shiny examples of the bigotry and bad faith of the people around.

Have you ever seen on TV advertisement companies paying people to go in night clubs, make friendships just for selling some new brand of vodka or cigarettes? Have you ever heard of people paid to go into forums like this one, pretending to be a fan, only to promote this or that movie? This a marketing technique, and I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't people doing the same thing for demonizing other countries such as Brazil.

I remember one case where one american politician paid someone to send him hundreds of letters only to pretend "his voters" were demanding a certain attitude.
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written by bo, January 22, 2007
There are several private colleges that are good and not every women become a prostitute. What the f**k you are talking about!? Even the minority of the minotiry of the minority that do become a prostitute, they do it because they like it.



You're a f**king disgrace!!! They do it because they like it?? Maybe a few jackass, but the VAST majority are doing it because it is the ONLY way to not live in misery with a salary of 150 dollars a month!

I can take you to the local university in my town, there are NUMEROUS female students there that work as prostitutes. A very good friend of mine is a professor there and according to her they don't hide the fact whatsoever. And they're doing it because they can't afford to pay their bills while paying their tuition! It's a damn shame that so many young women have to degrade themselves to sell their bodies to pay simple things like rent, utilities, and put food in their mouths....but it is most certainly a reality in brazil.
Bo and his enless campaign of lies
written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
And they're doing it because they can't afford to pay their bills while paying their tuition! It's a damn shame that so many young women have to degrade themselves to sell their bodies to pay simple things like rent, utilities, and put food in their mouths....but it is most certainly a reality in brazil.


NOT TRUE.

This is the same story they all tell in order to justify their questionable morality. But they do like sex and that's just a way of uniting money with something they like doing.

It's absolutely false that people need to go down that level. They could very well have a regular job and still PAY for their college, like many others have, but you know what, why to make a s**tty salary if they can make 5000 US$ a month? It's much easier, isn't it? They do it because they like it, or just want the easy money.

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written by bo, January 22, 2007
A Brazilian

I wouldn't be surprised if the description of your friends is correct, why do you think they went to the US in the first place? Let's just say they weren't the smartest people in Brazil. smilies/smiley.gif



What about the brazilian computer programmers and engineers that I know in the U.S.? Not to mention some doctors??

Now, who's the smart one? An uneducated brazilian who stays in brazil and receives 150 dollars a month and lives in a crime infested favella where the murder rates are the highest on the planet and if you live in a house it has iron gates and iron bars over the windows...a self-imposed prison if you like, or go to the U.S., make 6-10 dollars an hour, live modestly, struggle to pay your bills, but have a roof over your head and food on the table. You're children go to public school that is actually good and free. After a little time spent on the job you can buy a new car and here soon, thanks to our idiotic policies on illegals, you'll be legal. Also live in a country where you actually call the police if a crime is committed against you, you don't have to be paranoid that their in cahoots with the criminals themselves. They actually protect you!

I have a friend who's 20 year old brother left for the states two days ago, he's certainly not stupid, I know him well. He went to the U.S. because he knows that he has a chance of a better life there, he knows damn well, that if he stays here in brazil, maybe, through someone he or his father knows, they'll get him a job paying him 500-700 reais per month. So he'll have to continue living with his parents for the next 5-10 years at least so he can afford to buy an apartment.

Opportunities in brazil are few and far between and certainly not available for everyone. It's quite the contrary in the U.S.
Bo owes 100,000 to e Harmony
written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
You called A brazilian an "illiterate monkey" as I recall. Grunt then stated that your comment wasn't racist but rather your comment was in reference to monkeys being found in a Banana Republic.


Can you read? I'm tired of you twisting and torting things and outright lying!! Now, if I called someone a macaco, QUOTE IT!! If you can, I swear on my daughter, I'll pay you 100,000 dollars!! I'll send it to the owner of this site and he can send it to you.....happy hunting!

Bo and his
written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
Please, you should be more careful with the amount of information you put in here. You are saying crap after crap. This post is one of the most ridiculous I have ever read here, let's see why:

I have a friend who's 20 year old brother left for the states two days ago, he's certainly not stupid, I know him well. He went to the U.S. because he knows that he has a chance of a better life there, he knows damn well, that if he stays here in brazil, maybe, through someone he or his father knows, they'll get him a job paying him 500-700 reais per month.


Not even mall workers make that little. 500-700 is like poor in Brazil.

Opportunities in brazil are few and far between and certainly not available for everyone. It's quite the contrary in the U.S.


False. People that go the US are usually the less capable ones. They would probably be doing that much you said, very little indeed, with little or no change of ever improving. They go to the US to clean toilets, flip burgers, cut the grass, the same kind of job they would be "eligible" in Brazil, but making dollars instead.

This way things actually make sense. They are losers, but in the US they can make dollars.

There are many opportunities in here, but not for those that can't do anything except clean toilets.

About Engineers and doctors, that's a completely different matter. Don't mix this up. Many countries, not only the US, offer them opportunities because the more brains they have the richer they get. They won't cross the Mexican border on foot!! They will be legals from day one.

Don't mix the poor illegal immigrants with the legal immigrants that are high valued.
They cannot say it...
written by A black Brasilian, January 22, 2007
Another very well thought article by Mr. Wells.
Mr. Wells, the brasilian society practices the worst kind of racism ever thought about. It is so effective that other countries like the US has changed towards it. It is the hidden racism, and for a white brasilian admitting to practice it, is just not possible for it would collapse the system. But I can tell you that just about everything you have written in your articles are right on. Any black brasilian that actually identifies him/herself as a negro/negra/afrodescendente/... that is, actually conscious of the racial system that he or she lives in, will without any doubt agree on what you have to say. All of the things that you say, as you know yourself has been written and documented in many, many, many, many, many books, magazines, radio shows, even documentaries over the years. If you can try to get a copy of "A Negação do Brasil". Which has the same topic as this lattes article. Yet you do not see as the history teacher so nicely stated almost (the only one I'm aware of is "Casa Grande e Senzala") books, articles and so forth, reputing what we afro-brasilians have been saying since May, 14 1888. We are living on the longest day in history. And everyone saw the reaction of white brasilians when the affirmative action measures started to take place in some universities.
They cannot admit that there ancestors murdered, and raped people, stole lands, imported a lot of europeans to "whitten that mess up", and cannot admit that they are living in general as compared to the black or mullato or non-white population very nicely. And also that they continue this up to this day.
Big UP!
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written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
Oh boy, a brazilian activist!! Please don't put mulattos in that mess, I have many ancestors and I would rather work than whine. Don't pretend to speak on behalf of others, you only speak for yourself.

We should look forward not backwards. It doesn`t matter what happened or not, nothing takes away your responsibility for your life and your actions.

Stupidity sometimes seems unstoppable. I wish people were capable of realizing the power they have to change their lives, just a matter of strength of will and perseverance.
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written by bo, January 22, 2007
Not even mall workers make that little. 500-700 is like poor in Brazil.



What??? What part of brazil are you in??? Here in the northeast my friend those sales attendants that work in the stores and eateries at malls make MINIMUM SALARY, and some of them pay strictly commission, no salary at all! Matter of fact my best friends daughter went to apply for a job at our local mall in a clothing store....they offered her 2% commission on what she sold, and that's it!!! Imagine....2%! One would have to sell 20,000 reais in clothes every month to make 400 reais!!

Buddy, you talk like it's "normal" here in brazil to make 4000-5000 reais per month, very FEW people make this salary, at least in the northeast. My ex-wife works for the TRT, she has a very good job, for brazil, she has worked for them for 12 years, she has a law degree and passed the tests necessary, she makes 6,000 reais per month and she will tell you herself, very FEW friends that she has and went to school with throughout her life make her salary.

And as far as what is classified as "poor" in brazil you don't even know what that is do you bobão?? It's 2 DOLLARS a day or less!!! If one makes 2 dollars a day or LESS then you are classified as poor by the brazilian gov't. and qualify for bolsa familia. If you make MORE than 2 dollars a day you do NOT qualify for bolsa familia...because you are NOT poor in their eyes!!!!
E Harmony...
written by bo, January 22, 2007
You called A brazilian an "illiterate monkey" as I recall. Grunt then stated that your comment wasn't racist but rather your comment was in reference to monkeys being found in a Banana Republic.



Find the quote, direct us to the link and post, and I will pay you 100,000 dollars if you can do that....f**king liar!
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written by bo, January 22, 2007
Bo, in your quest to destroy Brazil's image you mixture lots of different topics in here. This was debated in other threads and I showed you, with factual examples, how NGOs are irresponsible in showing latin america in general.

Get over it and stay on topic.



LOL...stay on topic??? Why can't YOU or all your other cronies, e harmoney or Costinha ever stay on topic??? EVERYTIME you guys start to sling mud at the U.S. and turn ever discussion into a U.S./Brazil pissing contest.

Factual examples??? Of what??? You have yet to show ONE study from anyone to support your claims...not ONE!! Please, show us some studies bobão that show where the U.N. has an axe to grind with brazil....and once again, answer this.....WHAT ABOUT THE STUDIES DONE BY YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT??!!
Bo, lies and more lies
written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
What about them? Studies of what and for what?

Don't take Northeast as the example of Brazil, many people from there go to Sao Paulo BECAUSE they want to make a better life!! Why would they leave the Northeast to Sao Paulo?

One minimum salary!? I did two times that as an intern in one of my very first jobs when I was 17 years old, a long time ago.
A Brazilian, A Group
written by The American Historian, January 22, 2007
I see I will need to respond in a more in depth manner to you A Brazilian. I get the sense you know more about all of these matters than you reveal. I have to fly to visit my parents in New Mexico today but I will provide you with a response soon, although Bo has provided my response to some extent (and no, I am not Bo).

And A Group, you may not like me but I like you. You should not take this criticisms as a personal attack made only against Brazil. I think it is great you love and are proud of your country. Every society in this world has some form of the problems that exist in Brazil. I don't get any enjoyment, as some people do, by simply criticizing other countries and saying Brazil is S***t or my country is better in every way than yours. I simply hope to give my insight as someone who come from a people and society who have faced similar problems. America 's history of racial problems are more of a mirror of Brazil's than people want to admit--that is why I made the comparison to the old American Southern slaveowning class, who inflicted hell on my ancestors.

Anyway, I will be back soon.
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written by bo, January 22, 2007
It's absolutely false that people need to go down that level. They could very well have a regular job and still PAY for their college, like many others have, but you know what, why to make a s**tty salary if they can make 5000 US$ a month? It's much easier, isn't it? They do it because they like it, or just want the easy money.



Really?? Where is it that pays people that don't have a college degree 1,500 reais a month or more in large numbers?? Because that is the kind of money it takes to pay tuition, rent, utility bills and food. You're so full of s**t you're scared to let a fart.


And, I'd like EVERYONE to notice something, go through some of the threads on this site, look at the posting style, grammar, etc of A Brazilian in some posts and then look at the ones directly above.....THEY ARE DIFFERENT!!!

Miraculously your grammar, syntax, vocabulary and spelling have improved dramatically!!!

We already had another person beside myself to ask this question and think that there was more than one poster behind this name....talking about posting with other objectivesfor sites, you got that right!
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written by bo, January 22, 2007
What about them? Studies of what and for what?

Don't take Northeast as the example of Brazil,



I've already posted, 2-3 times I believe, studies on murder rates and slavery in brazil, done by the brazilian gov't. or brazilians themselves....do you want them yet AGAIN?

And so typical of someone from sao paulo or the south, they'd like to just get rid of the northeast of brazil. And what about the north?? It's not any better than the northeast, same s**t. I've been to Ceara, maranhao, piaui, mato grosso, tocatins and Amapa. Same s**t as Bahia, Sergipe, Alagoas, Pernambuco, etc. People like you think that brazil exists from Minas Gerais southward and like to talk about the northeast like it's red-headed step child (that's an expression, I have nothing against red heads, lol).

I met a typical brazilian southerner a few weeks ago here in the northeast where I live. After I was introduced to him he asked, "where are you from?" And I replied, "the U.S.". He then felt compelled to tell me that he was from Rio Grande do Sul and that it was "VERY different" than from here in the northeast. That if I travelled there I would think I was in Europe.....yeah, whatever.
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written by A brazilian, January 22, 2007
It is VERY different. Would he be lying? No. The problem is that americans would like to take the whole diversity of Brazil, simply tag it as "African" and use it as an image of "poor stupid people" along with the images of starving marvins from Africa.

How can you be so ignorant? If you know Brazil as much as you claim to know then you know it's not the same thing.
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written by Ana Paula Hubert, January 22, 2007
HERE"S MY PIC:
http://i136.photobucket.com/al...V3533.jpg
...
written by e harmony, January 23, 2007
E Harmony...
written by bo, 2007-01-22 14:16:06

You called A brazilian an "illiterate monkey" as I recall. Grunt then stated that your comment wasn't racist but rather your comment was in reference to monkeys being found in a Banana Republic.




Find the quote, direct us to the link and post, and I will pay you 100,000 dollars if you can do that....f**king liar!


It's interesting you started offering this challenge (in that other thread at that I believe - or at least another one) after the boards crashed down. I find that and interesting coincident, especially since I and one of more others remember you making the comment.

...
written by e harmony, January 23, 2007
PICTURE
written by Ana Paula Hubert, 2007-01-22 18:48:24

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q182/raicaray/_U0L2336.jpg

&

written by Ana Paula Hubert, 2007-01-22 18:45:51

HERE"S MY PIC:
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q182/raicaray/948V3533.jpg


Oh my god.... if that is truely you you are one desirable creature. Yeah your heritage (especially if you darken and redden [reddish bronze tan - not sunburn]) would mark you by look as likely "Latina" or Italian/Sicilian in the U.S. If you were in a predominately black neighborhood like the one I live in, if you lived here for any significant time, you would risk being jumped on eventually by a pack of passing black teenage girls (that is is you were strolling or walking through the neighborhood on a hot sunny day) for being a "white girl" and looking good as you do. They would try to pull your hair out, rip your clothes off, smash or scar your face, and if you happened to be visibly pregnant they would kick, punch, and stomp at your stomach in attempt to kill your baby. True reality in the "hood," this ain't the type of stuff you gonna see on a Hollywood movie or read about in Essence magazine. But this is the way it is.

I have three nephews, two biologically the other is there half brother, but they're all my nephews equally. One of my biological nephews is lighter than you, the other is darker than you, and both have that loose hair like mestizos and Europeans and Amerindians.
TO e harmony
written by Ana Paula Hubert, January 23, 2007
Where do you live? LOL it sounds crazy there, I would be very scared. I forgot to say my grandfather was Italian with blue eyes and reddish skin. My dad has reddish tones as well with green/hazel eyes. Out of the sun, I become very yellow, on the sun I am golden not brownish like a lot of people. On the East Coast most people think I am Italian also in Brazil(everytime I visit home) people ask me if I am Italiana. I think I have a lot of the Italian features( smoldering eyes, full lips, golden skin and dark hair).
I am very proud of my mixed background just wished people would accept that I can be put in one category. I considered myself a "new breed" of the human race so is my son. I am the future of what people will look like in a few years when race no longer will exist...
Ana
written by The American Historian, January 23, 2007
Pay no attention to e harmoney and his slander of the American black community Ana; 99 percent of all black Americans would treat you absolutely fine in their neighborhoods. I think he is a part black man who got traumatized when some black American woman saw his sex organ, laughed at it and he has vowed to slander all black Americans for the rest of his life.

I am off to catch my plane, and I will have a response to your above inquiry A Brazilian.
American Historian
written by A brazilian, January 23, 2007
You really took the conversation to the bottom. Not even Bo was capable of doing it, despite of his best efforts and his raging bigotry.
Ana
written by A brazilian, January 23, 2007
Hey, you look great!!
Yeah, I Know
written by The American Historian, January 23, 2007
I know I did; just had to get it off my chest.
...
written by bo, January 23, 2007
written by e harmony, 2007-01-22 19:21:59

E Harmony...
written by bo, 2007-01-22 14:16:06

You called A brazilian an "illiterate monkey" as I recall. Grunt then stated that your comment wasn't racist but rather your comment was in reference to monkeys being found in a Banana Republic.




Find the quote, direct us to the link and post, and I will pay you 100,000 dollars if you can do that....f**king liar!



It's interesting you started offering this challenge (in that other thread at that I believe - or at least another one) after the boards crashed down. I find that and interesting coincident, especially since I and one of more others remember you making the comment.



No, what's interesting is that even Adrianaa, to whom in the very thread where the situation occurred, and YOU claimed that I called her a monkey, has told you REPEATEDLY that NO ONE, besides YOURSELF, has called her a monkey, and also has said, time after time, that I certainly never called her that.

Now, you can take this for what's it's worth, but as I'm sure you know, here in brazil it is a CRIME to call someone a "macaco". So, YOU are slandering me. I already called the OWNER of this site several years ago after a person in their forum posted pictures and personal information about me on their forum, as well as slanderous remarks. If you don't show proof that I called someone a monkey or macaco and continue with your insane, absurd LIES, I'll have my lawyer contact the owner of this site as well as the brazilian authorities. Afterall, you are falsely accusing me of committing a crime here in brazil, which I have NEVER done!

So, stop the lies. You want to quote me on the substance I've typed....go for it. But if you want to fabricate horses**t, and defame and slander others, go for it! You'll soon see, as have numerous people in the U.S., the long arm of the law extends to your keyboard!
...
written by bo, January 23, 2007
If you were in a predominately black neighborhood like the one I live in, if you lived here for any significant time, you would risk being jumped on eventually by a pack of passing black teenage girls (that is is you were strolling or walking through the neighborhood on a hot sunny day) for being a "white girl" and looking good as you do. They would try to pull your hair out, rip your clothes off, smash or scar your face, and if you happened to be visibly pregnant they would kick, punch, and stomp at your stomach in attempt to kill your baby. True reality in the "hood," this ain't the type of stuff you gonna see on a Hollywood movie or read about in Essence magazine. But this is the way it is.



Yeah E Harmony, and many wonder why n****rs get a bad name. That's right, I said ERS and not AHS. And, it has NOTHING to do with COLOR! I know people as white as snow that I would classify as a n****r. But people that behave like animals, which is exactly what you've described, deserve the label of N-I-G-G-E-R!

If it is like you say it is where you live, then you live in the "hood" of all hoods in the U.S.! Where the people sell crack 24/7. That is most certainly NOT a representation of life in the U.S., for any race or ethnicity. If that's your personal experience, too bad, I feel sorry for you, but that's the exception in the states, certainly not the rule.
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written by e harmony, January 23, 2007
TO e harmony
written by Ana Paula Hubert, 2007-01-22 19:52:19

Where do you live? LOL it sounds crazy there, I would be very scared. I forgot to say my grandfather was Italian with blue eyes and reddish skin. My dad has reddish tones as well with green/hazel eyes. Out of the sun, I become very yellow, on the sun I am golden not brownish like a lot of people. On the East Coast most people think I am Italian also in Brazil(everytime I visit home) people ask me if I am Italiana. I think I have a lot of the Italian features( smoldering eyes, full lips, golden skin and dark hair).
I am very proud of my mixed background just wished people would accept that I can be put in one category. I considered myself a "new breed" of the human race so is my son. I am the future of what people will look like in a few years when race no longer will exist...


Hi, Anna.

I live in metropolitan in the Midwest, specifically what one would refer to in the U.S. as the "central city." Some might consider where I live to be the "inner city" but I don't. Those that come from worse neighborhoods think it's the most awesome neighborhood on earth, those that come from better neighborhoods or more especially better counties or pleasant suburbs think it's a literal hell on earth. So it depends on one's perspective.

Actually several months ago I had to go over to my brothers house because he called me, some young teenager (black cat) had thrown something at my nephew as he rode on his bike, and yelled "f**k you white boy." This was my very young nephew (I believe he's 9) that is the darker one - darker than you. This teenager (and a few others with him) live across the street from my brother, hell they threw the bottle or whatever at my nephew right on the same block they all live on. I always knew that was going to happen (or worse) because I could see the look in the people eyes that lived up and down that block. My sister-in-law is white and you can tell its a source of animosity on various levels.

I'm not saying white people can't drive through, or even walk around, within a neighborhood like mine. But what I am saying is if a person looking like you makes a habit of walking around in a neighborhood like mine your chance of getting assaulted from black teenage girls in a pack motivated by your "race", shoots up expodentially (sp?). This is real life stuff. I had a partner many years ago save some white chick from getting the living h*ll beat out of her by two or three overweight black chicks. They had already started beating on this girl and her friend who was a teenager also and Puerto Rican. From what I heard they were jumping from off of sofas (like a wrestling event) onto the Puerto Rican chick feet first, then they were going to make the white chick give blowjobs to every dude in the house. This white girl and Puerto Rican were run aways (meaning they ran away from their homes [parents]). I'm not sure what happened to the Puerto Rican chick, but I know my partner had got the white chick out of the house, because he showed up with her at my friends house and then began telling us this whole thing. This was many years ago. But I know how people are. It's not everyone but it's enough.
Ana Paulo..
written by bo, January 23, 2007
who asked you for your pic??? BTW, where d'ya get your tits done? In brazil for 1500 reais? Pretty obvious. Firstly, the pic is more than likely not you, although, it certainly may be. You know how it is on the internet.


And e harmony and A Brazilian....try to keep your dicks in your pants....lol.
TO bo: About my pic
written by Ana Paula Hubert, January 23, 2007
I just trying to show how a brazilian person looks like. Someone said the link was dead, so I posted. Yes, this is me! I had my breast augmentation in the USA after I had my child. I paid $5000 cash by the way! I make over 100K a year so does my husband. We live in a 400k-600k neighborhood(I guess that eliminates your theory that Brazilians are all illegals on wellfare).

"If you have nothing nice to say, keep your mouth shut!"
...
written by bo, January 23, 2007
I make over 100K a year so does my husband. We live in a 400k-600k neighborhood(I guess that eliminates your theory that Brazilians are all illegals on wellfare).



No, that is not my theory whatsoever, that is A Brazilians theory that all brazilians that go to the U.S. are "LOSERS", or "STUPID", as he put it.

On the contrary, I know numerous brazilians, mostly that live in Miami, that do VERY well for themselves. The only gripe that I have with not only brazilians ana paula, but with ALL foreigners from other countries is that millions and millions have either entered the U.S. illegally, or enter legally, then break the law by overstaying the maximum days allowed by 10-15 years, and never have intentions of acclamating to the U.S., that are only staying to earn the maximum possible only to send back to their home country or to go back to their home country to "make a better life" from what they achieved in the U.S. All the while many of these very types I've described talk negatively about the U.S. Really makes you shake your head and think, "if it is/was so terrible in the U.S., why didn't you stay where you were?" When I've encountered these types, and I've encountered numerous here in brazil, when I ask that question it normally shuts them right up because then they have to admit that what they achieved in the U.S. just wasn't feasible for them in their own country.

Afterall, the very definition of "immigrant" includes one going to another country AND "acclamating" to the culture there. It certainly is not to go, stay 5-10 years, earn/take as much as you can without contributing much, if anything, then returning to your home country.

Congrats to you on your life with your husband in the U.S., you're living the american dream, as are the vast majority of americans. Also, accept my apologies for being rude last night, some of these people that have been telling outright lies about the very words that I've typed here are getting on my last nerve.
...
written by A brazilian, January 23, 2007
you're living the american dream


By her descriptions about weird looks and racial labels I would say that she is indeed living the american racialized dream. Hahahahaha
Ana Paula Hubert
written by Costinha, January 24, 2007
Voce pode chupar o meu pau gratis!
...
written by Ana P, January 24, 2007
Nao, muito obrigado! I am an exotic dancer not a prostitute and since prostitution is ILLEGAL In the USA(for those who don't know). Exotic dancing is legal and many girls here do to pay for College, etc.

Costinha you must be a 13 year old palying on your mom's computer... I forgive you for your ignorance!
...
written by Simpleton, January 24, 2007
Boy, thought I said I'd tired of this thread. Lot's more crap here.

e hormonty - didn't go back but a few entries within this thread to try to see how you perceived male gringo vs brasileira of the one declaring possesion of special perception abilities. Didn't quite see it, seemed more likely female, possibly Bangladeshi to me.

Adrianaa - I'm sorry for the hits and offense you've taken over them. Think I suggested caution in qualifying ones sources of info / taking care in what you are fed here. Perhaps it's better for you to avoid this pit if someone could be so kind to offer names of other sites / forums with less of such ilk.

I think I'm going to like teaching young children what little I can about many things in english as they teach me portugues. In the poor neighborhoods on the edges of Rio there are vacant tehennas passed down through the families of the freed slaves on as yet unpaved streets. Seems to me to be a worthy investment to build a small facility for work and study out where there is nothing (and where no one really seems to want to be but they're sure damb kind to strangers that don't look like them). Perhaps I can offer the english teacher in the s**thole of city center a job with enough pay so she doesn't keep trying to pick me up with the I idea I might be good for some fun and some supplemental income. If she or anyone else who would or could help in this endeavor is all about their degree(s) and or certification(s) and the money then I have no use for them. R$300 in a month for a family of four is doing great out there, in town R$500 in a month is more the norm and not enough unless you live with your parents for almost to the fourth generation or share a cramped appartment with three others working at something else at night. I was probably off a bit in the tuition estimates, but the spreadsheet I ran for someone I felt intelligent enough to get out of that crap and make a go of a higher education showed they'd need R$1310 in a month.

In regards to the "board crash" or somehow mysterious (but all too suspicious in it's timing) disappearance of some threads a while back, I too recollect someone calling someone a macaco but don't recall whom it was to whom. I didn't quite buy into the subsequent defenses / diversion / denails then. Tough to say now who's still covering up / who's trying to turn it around.
...
written by Simpleton, January 24, 2007
"Now, you can take this for what's it's worth, but as I'm sure you know, here in brazil it is a CRIME to call someone a "macaco""

Is this true? If it's true I'm going have a big big problem with one of my friends the next time I see them. Doesn't matter that I have a blast climbing rocks, trees, fences, lamp posts, garden walls, sides of buildings. (Well, maybe I'm not so avid about it after taking a 3 metre header last year.) Anyway, I think they'll just roll over and die when I tell their family that THEY"VE COMMITED A CRIME IN BRASIL!!
Brazilian Premodern Elites for A Brazilian
written by The American Historian, January 24, 2007
Above, you asked me to more fully explain my claim that many of Brazil's problems come from the influence of leaders with a certain mindset, i.e., premodern or feudal-like. You accused me of thinking Brazil was still one huge farm that only had a cash crop economy, a largely rural populace that lived under the domination of feudal-like knights and in short not knowing how this could compare to the society of the U.S. American South. O.K., we move forward.

Feudal systems result from the structuring of societies by military leaders over the land they have conquered. A man leads a conquest; is already a King or declares himself one and his family members and military allies are given pieces of land to help him rule. The feudal rulers and their families develop a set of values, traditions and ways that influence the whole populace. Was Brazil conquered by the King of Portugal? Did a small group of families gain ownership of most of its land with a large slave/peasant-like workforce to work it? Are the descendants of those families members of much of Brazil's elite today? Is land ownership wildly unequal in brazil today largely as a result of this history and have many poor Brazilians--descendants of slaves and peasants had to move to the industrialized Southeast in the past 50 years to escape a life of rural poverty because the chance of land ownership was so remote? Hmmmm, sounds like the reason my grandparents left the mostly agricultural U.S. South in the 1920' and 30's.

And how about Brazil's more recent history? See below.


...
written by e harmony, January 24, 2007
Exotic dancing is legal and many girls here do to pay for College, etc.


This is true, and I wouldn't be surprised if many (not saying all) female exotic dancers in the U.S. come from middle class or lower middle class backgrounds. By the way, one of my teachers was just telling me today that back when he went through our two-year-college in the 1970's all the class in the Liberal Arts program cost $8 and some class in various programs were completely free. I guess the state use to subsidize a larger portion of higher education back then according to him. He said he is amazed how much the cost of education has gone up. So I damn sure can't fault a young woman for dancing seductively and half nude or more on a stage with proper security and a decent income provided by happy customers. H*ll, I'd do it if I could. smilies/smiley.gif
The Source
written by The American Historian, January 24, 2007
Read Timothy J. Power's "The Political Right in Post Authoritarian Brazil: Elites, Institutions et. al..."

What is Power's basic analysis? Ex-Authoritarians, i.e., veterans of Brazil's pro-military party, have retained a high amount of influence in the Brazilian government even a generation after the end of military rule. Most represent the generally economically backward sections of Brazil (yes, the more agricultural Northeast). They are highly individualistic, focus on patronage over implementation of wise social policies (a reformed educational system anybody?) ignore the need for greater accountability to the public AND OPPOSE EFFORTS AT REFORM THAT WOULD LIMIT THE POWER OF THE EXECUTIVE
(Authoritarianism anyone?) BRANCH OF THE NATIONAL BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT SO THE MORE REPRESENTATIVE LEGILATURE COULD HAVE THE CHANCE AT NEEDED REFORMS. And what was England's 17th Century ccivil was fought over?
The King vs. the legislature (Parliament); yes Parliament was seen as more representative of the rising middle classes and the King and his crowd were of course, the authoritarians.

There is more below.
We Continue....
written by The American Historian, January 24, 2007
These Brazilian ex-authoritarians have contibuted significantly to the undermining of the reform efforts of Brazilian political parties and the legislature. Brazil is thus a country of ineffectice political institutions and has a weak democratic ethic. Power further demonstrates how democracy has become a farce due to how the authoritarians have emasculated the legislature and manipulated rules to ensure much of the pro-authoritarian status quo is maintained. As a result hopes for reform have often been thwarted and disintegrate. Now in the United States have white senators from the more agrarian and economically impoverished South (largest concentration of blacks ) had a history of manipulating rules in the U.S. Congress--especially in the Senate--to thwart reform efforts, reform efforts that would have benefitted the U.S. black population? I think so.

Power adds that these authoritarians usually represent the impoverished northeast and have a disproportionate hold on the Brazilian national legislature--THUS REDUCING THE INFLUENCE OF MORE PROGRESSIVE STATES SUCH AS SAO PAULO. Due to their influence, cronyism, corruption, misappropriation of public money and other ills flourish. To summarize, these folks ensure Brazil's government operates in an undemocratic (feudal-like?) manner where reform efforts (a better education system?) are usually destroyed.

I know I know, Power is a gringo so who cares what he says. Yes, I can anticipate your response already A Brazilian. If you do not believe Power, contact Brazilian Dr. Cristovam Buarque, PHD, Economics and read a prior article he published at this site titled "The Elite Failed Brazil: Intellectuals Don't Think, Politicians Don't Lead."

How ironic; the key to liberating all of Brazil will be empowering the mostly black and brown Northeast from these oppresive leaders. You need a more educated and economically developed Northeast guys, you can't get around it unless you partition Brazil. These elites benefit from a poor populace that can provide cheap labor so they have little incentive to improve education for all--just like the old American South ruling families who ensured their region would have the worst education system in the U.S. Three of my four granparents only had grade school educations. Good for me, they left the South.

Responses guys....
A Clarification
written by The American Historian, January 24, 2007
So you were partly right A Brazilian. I should have mentioned Brazil and it's regions are more diverse than my language above would lead you to believe, but the same basic problem of too much premodern influence remains--notwithstanding the industrialization of some places since the mid-20th Century. All right guys, get out your daggers.
Corrections
written by The American Historian, January 24, 2007
Respell legislature and oppressive.
One more
written by The American Historian, January 24, 2007
Grandparent
...
written by jabmalassie, January 24, 2007

I often hear some negative comments about African Americans from family members in the States. There is an opinion that they are lazy and don't want to work ect. ect. I always try to remind them of the civil rights struggle and how they fought and shed blood to make America a better place for them to immigrate to.
There is nothing wrong with exporting the ideals of MLK to other countries. He fought AGAINST segregation NOT FOR segretation. MLK fought for equality maybe that is why he is still hated by some today.
...
written by A brazilian, January 24, 2007
How ironic; the key to liberating all of Brazil will be empowering the mostly black and brown Northeast from these oppresive leaders. You need a more educated and economically developed Northeast guys, you can't get around it unless you partition Brazil.


Brazil is not only the Northeast. There are some famous people that are known to represent your exact description in politics, usually come from impoverished areas, but I wouldn't generalize it as everyone.

Generalization was one problem. The other one is using "land for just a few" as an excuse. I have zero meters of land, and all my relatives have zero meters of land (I am not counting the places their houses are built), the vast majority of people in my job have zero meters of land. But that doesn't prevent anybody to achieve something in life.
...
written by bo, January 24, 2007
"Now, you can take this for what's it's worth, but as I'm sure you know, here in brazil it is a CRIME to call someone a "macaco""

Is this true?



As absurd as it sounds, it most definitely is!

And as far as this board crashing and threads disappearing etc, I had no idea until the day before yesterday when e harmony claimed that it went down, and didn't believe it to be honest, because between he, Costinha and A Brazilian they have twisted and torted peoples words so consistantly that you can't believe anything they say.

Just go through the threads, look at Adrianaas posts, she was posting during all that mess. After costinha and A Brazilian told an outright LIE that I called her a macaco, she responded, at least twice, saying that NO ONE called HER that and that it certainly wasn't me that used the word.
...
written by bo, January 24, 2007
How ironic; the key to liberating all of Brazil will be empowering the mostly black and brown Northeast from these oppresive leaders. You need a more educated and economically developed Northeast guys, you can't get around it unless you partition Brazil. These elites benefit from a poor populace that can provide cheap labor so they have little incentive to improve education for all--just like the old American South ruling families who ensured their region would have the worst education system in the U.S. Three of my four granparents only had grade school educations. Good for me, they left the South.



I've been saying that for years Historian. I've lived in the northeast for 10 years. Now, imagine this. You're a gringo in the capitol of a state in northeast brazil, you're an american, married to a brazilian with a brazilian child. You and your english partners are making a foreign investment in brazil, plan on building three beachfront housing developments and selling them to the english. Something that would be wonderful for this city and state from a tourism, economic, and investment standpoint. Do you think we've received any help from the local or state gov't.?? NONE! Do you think they are interested in our project? Apparently not.

There are several groups, or families I should say, that "control" this city and state. A couple of them are owners of large construction companies. At least one owner of one of these companies has actually went out of his way, after learning of our purchase of land and projects to put obstacles in our path!! They have the ideology that "this city is ours". The people here actually have a saying that goes something like this, "João nordestino will spend two reais to make sure you don't make one".

Now, there was just a new governor elected here, I have many good friends that are good friends and colleagues of his. Also, the ex-mayor in my city, the one that came to my house for lunch and thought my black brazilian wife was the maid when he first met her, lol, is a very good friend of mine and is now the secretary of tourism, so we "may" eventually get some help/interest from the gov't. Basically, here in northeast brazil, at least, if you don't KNOW people within the gov't. you're probably screwed.

Now, if one wants to talk about the beurocracy and corruption of local, state, and even federal institutions in brazil, I could write a book. Can't tell you how many times that I've received a phone call from some mid-level brazilian beurocrat that unfortunately we need his signature on a document, saying, "Bo, we have a little problem, but it can be resolved, come to my office tomorrow at 9 am."

Guess what he wants?
Bo
written by The American Historian, January 24, 2007
Interesting stories Bo. It seems to me that you and the folks who really want to change the region should probably consider alliances with those folks from other regions of Brazil
who have an interest in reducing the influence of these folks in the national government. Just a thought regarding long range strategy.
...
written by brazilian1234, January 24, 2007
y do americans feel the need to clasify every kind of ppl... now if us brazilians say we dont classify ppl by color like americans do, y argue??? i honestly never saw sooo much racism like i see in the us... of course we hav problems in brazil, but it is our country, our problems, let us take care of ourselves, u ameicans keep tryin to fix the world thinkin u own it, jus leave it alone and worry bout ur own problems...
We Can't Win A Brazilian
written by The American Historian, January 25, 2007
You may accuse us of interfering in your affairs, but then some of the same folks get mad when they think americans ignore the rest of the world and know nothing about events outside of the U.S. Which is it? Are we too indifferent or too involved? The basic theme in all of my posts is that the race situation in the U.S. and Brazil is not as different as you folks like to claim. I wish it were but I have not been convinced.
...
written by e harmony, January 25, 2007
written by jabmalassie, 2007-01-24 10:06:23


I often hear some negative comments about African Americans from family members in the States. There is an opinion that they are lazy and don't want to work ect. ect. I always try to remind them of the civil rights struggle and how they fought and shed blood to make America a better place for them to immigrate to.
There is nothing wrong with exporting the ideals of MLK to other countries. He fought AGAINST segregation NOT FOR segretation. MLK fought for equality maybe that is why he is still hated by some today.


Before there was MLK, before there was Ghandi, there was Daniel O'Connell. Struggle for liberty and equality did not begin and end with the U.S. Civil Rights movement - which by the way was multiracial. Brazil is less segregated than the United States, if it was not white Brazilians would experience Brazil as the epitome of safe living as most white people in highly segregated U.S. upper class suburbs and counties do in the USA. Its also very difficult to for Brazil to practice racial segregation and yet have a highly mixed population as she does (supposedly even most white Brazilians have black African ancestry).

In Brazil, Muslims are not forced to the back of the bus, there are not "white only" eating diners, so applying the situations of Daniel O'Connell or MLK to Brazil, a country that is a democracy and practices capitalism may not be entirely applicable. However, it is funny one speaks of MLK being transfered to Brazil as a need in relation to MLK's dream when one looks at the states of most streets in the U.S. named after him. If MLK's dream was lived so well in the U.S. then who forgot to tell black American women this when they complain about "no good black men" in Esssence Magazine? I doubt any Brazilian - white or other - talks as disparaging about black men as black American women do. So one might say in that sense, white Brazilians and morena-clara Brazilians are less racist against black peoples then half the population of black America. Even Toni Morrison (I believe it was) denoted President Bill Clinton as "the first black President" because he was raised by a single mother. Toni Morrison being a black American woman who is one of black Americas most beloved and popular novelists as well a college educated woman whom's opinion carries the quality of "intellectual" and "soundness" within black Americana.

If black America wants to fix something... go fix Detroit or Baltimore or Gary or Compton or Cleveland or et cetera et cetera. Bring MLK's dream there and quit worrying about what some apple butt morena or mulatta does in Rio.
A World Power
written by The American Historian, January 25, 2007
Probably, Brazil would be a world power if its darker skinned population were treated better. And I think some of you know that, so I thought I would send some analysis as an outside observer. The average American would look at the responses on this board and think I don't need this, so they remain detached from the rest of the world. I suppose they will remain detached until you crash a jetliner into one of their office buildings.
The Answer
written by The American Historian, January 25, 2007
After going back and forth on this for some time now, I think I have figured out why some folks insist racism must be worse in the U.S. than in Latin America/Brazil. In Brazil and elsewhere the definition of whiteness is much more fluid--even basically brownskinned folks are called white. Yet when you go to the U.S. you are labled as that horrible of all horrible things--Hispanic and thus usually considered brown. The average black American or darker skinned Brazilian is going to be treated the same in both places, so they see no differance. You guys who are frustrated at how you are seen in the U.S. should reflect on how the darker skinned people in your own country feel rather than rail about how horrible the U.S. is.
...
written by e harmony, January 25, 2007
written by brazilian1234, 2007-01-24 18:19:56

y do americans feel the need to clasify every kind of ppl... now if us brazilians say we dont classify ppl by color like americans do, y argue??? i honestly never saw sooo much racism like i see in the us... of course we hav problems in brazil, but it is our country, our problems, let us take care of ourselves, u ameicans keep tryin to fix the world thinkin u own it, jus leave it alone and worry bout ur own problems...


Hey, Brazilian1234, smilies/smiley.gif just look at 'The American Historians' buddying up with the racist, bo, that should be telling right there. Their collective real problem is that of the multiracial dynamics of Brazil. You have American Historian who is "pro black" and bo who is "white pride" (of the gringo variety) teaming up to tell Brazil how bad she is as a nation and people and both talking of how they would like the methodologically change her.

Like I said Brazil needs to stay close to Hugo Chaves, Evo Morales, and the dragon of the East called China. If Latinos be a clique? Then they've got a bigger clique (through Latin America into the USA) than black Ameruca or the single white pride camps within the United States.

Bo
written by The American Historian, 2007-01-24 16:11:16

Interesting stories Bo. It seems to me that you and the folks who really want to change the region should probably consider alliances with those folks from other regions of Brazil
who have an interest in reducing the influence of these folks in the national government. Just a thought regarding long range strategy.
Difference
written by The American Historian, January 25, 2007
Respell difference
Laugh Out Loud
written by The American Historian, January 25, 2007
Yeah, that Bo must be a real racist seeing that he is married to a black Brazilian woman and all. On Sunday he and I are plotting to kill Barack Obama. I think Obama is not black enough; Bo thinks he is too black.
I'm Off
written by The American Historian, January 25, 2007
i'm off to drive 900 miles back to Los Angeles. First I must stop off and meet with David Duke and the white supremacists to see how we can destroy Brazil.

"And he wrote in his diary 'Brazil will be laid waste.......' ."
Yep That's What This is Really About
written by The American Historian, January 25, 2007
Yes Virginia, that is right. Many brown skinned Latin Americans--who would be the same skin tone as me, would think the U.S. was all around just dandy if white Americans accepted brown skinned people as white. Then, they would be just as quick to discriminate against even darker skinned folks like they do in Latin America. Sorry guys, but the U.S. and black Americans do not need such hypocrisy. Sonia Braga and Salma Hayek are not considered white in the U.S.--get over it.
...
written by brazilian1234, January 25, 2007
ok listen... all i'm sayin is, and u would know dis if u ever lived in brazil long enough to get to know the ppl...dat we dont separate ppl by the color of their skin... it doesn make a difference if ur black or white... its a part of our, now you guys here that r not brazilians can't argue with us against that, because you don't understand... jus like we cant argue against you when it comes to american football, or how u americans love fast food (even though its bad for u)... get it...
...
written by brazilian1234, January 25, 2007
its part of our culture*
...
written by e harmony, January 25, 2007
Laugh Out Loud
written by The American Historian, 2007-01-24 20:12:37

Yeah, that Bo must be a real racist seeing that he is married to a black Brazilian woman and all. On Sunday he and I are plotting to kill Barack Obama. I think Obama is not black enough; Bo thinks he is too black.


And you know bo is married to a black Brazilian how? Because he says so right after referring to a Brazilian person as a monkey? If he says, "I'm not racist I have black friends," I suppose that proves his racial innocence as well? And this amazing inductive conclusion you credit to all those years of yours in college huh?
...
written by e harmony, January 25, 2007
Yep That's What This is Really About
written by The American Historian, 2007-01-24 20:34:03

Yes Virginia, that is right. Many brown skinned Latin Americans--who would be the same skin tone as me, would think the U.S. was all around just dandy if white Americans accepted brown skinned people as white. Then, they would be just as quick to discriminate against even darker skinned folks like they do in Latin America. Sorry guys, but the U.S. and black Americans do not need such hypocrisy. Sonia Braga and Salma Hayek are not considered white in the U.S.--get over it.


You contradict yourself from many of your other posts proposition of the multiracial harmony you suggested abounding in the United States unlike that of Brazil. Going by the image you have given of the United States there exists little to no racial antagonisms or frustrations within the United States: L.A. riots were a fluke, O.J. Simpson racial fragmentation was a fluke, Katrina effected New Orleans racial issues were a fluke, Latino and black friction in todays L.A. was or is a fluke and et cetera. Now you're saying Latinos in the U.S. are not racially harmonious with all other peoples.

And what is this comment suppose to mean on Brazzil.Com and NOT UnitedStates.Com, "Sonia Braga and Salma Hayek are not considered white in the U.S.--get over it"? Last I checked the Brazilians were not trying to press the United States into adopting her racial culture. Last I checked it was gringos coming on to this site or going to Brazil with typical U.S. arrogance trying to tell Brazilians how they should become more culturally racial like the United States. In other words most Brazilians don't give a sh*t what Sonia Braga or Salma Hayek are in the United States.
...
written by A brazilian, January 25, 2007
Last I checked the Brazilians were not trying to press the United States into adopting her racial culture. Last I checked it was gringos coming on to this site or going to Brazil with typical U.S. arrogance trying to tell Brazilians how they should become more culturally racial like the United States. In other words most Brazilians don't give a sh*t what Sonia Braga or Salma Hayek are in the United States.


That's it.

Amerika über alles
written by A brazilian, January 25, 2007
I think the black and white americans teaming up against Brazil's culture is an example of what's going on in this site. Giving other people certain names is common, it is used for identifying what belongs to a group and what does not. But when you want to force your conceptions upon others, then this is an exercise of power. What we see here with this "racism" talk about Brazil is simply an attempt to gain power over Brazil, first by claiming its virtues are a lie, then by trying to replace its culture with an alien one.

The culture comes from the elite, not from the people, unlike some might think. It's prerrogative of the powerful to establish the values. Brazil has established its own values and mixing is at the core of brazilianity, to the point of brazilians not identifying others by race. This "independence" of the brazilian culture is not well seen by americans, after all, they believe they are the elite and no one else should be allowed to establish values other than them.

So now we see this fight against the rebeliousness of the people that refuse to use a leash... I mean, an identity.

One example of this attitude in history would be the indians and the portuguese. The portuguese first claimed the indians way of living was "without God", therefore not good, and used it as a moral pretext for "helping them", i.e., genocide, and to justify their violence. Once the portuguese established themselves they started dictating the values.

I would like to remind those brazilians that Brazil has advantage, culturally, over any other country in this planet in the context of a globalized world. Our culture is not set in stone and we feel free too adopt new values (despite of TV efforts to characterize Brazil as a country of samba and dancing mulattas). In the US they can't accept anything as american, you can see that by the need of labeling everything with some other name, to make sure that's not thought of as american or white.

But remember the cannibal myth, absorbing other values require actively taking them (not asking for) and a selective mind (to discern between the good and the bad), not passively accepting things! Just like our body, we eat, it uses the substances it needs, and excretes what's not needed.

It's our prerrogative to eat whatever we want, culturally. But this american racism is definetely "improper for consumption".

PS: The cannibal myth inverts the roles of oppressor and oppressed. In the case of the myth, it was the indians that eat the portuguese, and therefore became brazilians. This is a truly powerful idea. Everytime I hear whining a la americana I remember this myth and see how this goes well with the future.
...
written by bo, January 25, 2007
And you know bo is married to a black Brazilian how? Because he says so right after referring to a Brazilian person as a monkey?



e harmony, you ignorant jackass, for the umpteenth time, SHOW us, provide the link or cut and paste the quote, where I called someone a monkey.


That's right, you cant! Because, once again, for the umpteenth time, I NEVER called anyone that. Now, let's hear your s**t about the board crashing, lol. And yes, I orchestrated that, I took time out of my daily schedule of working with architects, lawyers and accountants, as well as conference calls with my partners in england, as well as helping take care of my daughter, to hire someone to crash this board and remove the post where I called someone a monkey.....idiot, lol.

Just because you live in a crack neighborhood where the people are racists to the extreme, afterall, you did say that the lovely young ladies in your neighborhood would beat the s**t out of a good looking white girl if she were in their "hood" and if pregnant stomp her stomach until they killed her unborn child??

It's quite easy to see why your opinions are as they are. Also, lying and fabricating horses**t, as you have done in respect to myself, is no big deal and obviously practiced as a matter of routine in your "hood".

Now, don't you need to get back on the corner, your boys may be running low on rock.
E Harmony
written by The American Historian, January 26, 2007
Not to waste too much of my breath on you, but anyone who has read my posts can see I NEVER SAID the U.S. has no racism. I have mentioned examples of the racist history of the U.S., colorism among the African American community--among other examples. Probaby, you have not read all of my posts, but that is not a suprise.

What upsets you and other folks is I have said there is not much difference between the racism of Brazil and other places and the Racial Democracy myth is a farce. Plus, any person who does not realize the amount of progress the U.S. has made, and the lack of progress by comparison in Brazil chooses to ignore the obvious--that is why I have previously given examples of where there have been advances realtive to the lack thereof in Brazil.

And sadly, one of the big reasons is there is less of an inferiority complex among white folks in the U.S. than in Brazil. Most white Americans are easily accepted as such and therefore are not nearly as obsessed with presenting a "White " image of their country as Latin American countries are. Getting back to the topic of Brazilian media, whites in the U.S., Britain, and Canada don't care if black shows, movies or recording artists are presented to the world because they are less likely to think "oh no, if we show these negros people will think all we have are blacks, mulattoes, mestizos, Indians......"take your pick. Hence, you get the 2 percent of Latin Americans who look like Brad Pitt and Heidi Klum crammed down everyone's throat. I am sure Mark Wells would agree.


Sure Brazilians don't care About How Sonia is Seen
written by The American Historian, January 26, 2007
Yeah right E Harmony. Of course there are always exceptions, but the notion that so-called whites of Latin America are not extremely frustrated by the fact that many of them are not called white by the standards of the U.S. and Europe, well, I think you would make a great comedian up here for saying such a thing. Maybe I can book you at the comedy club this weekend. It drives many of them nuts that they are lumped in with those often darker skinned Mexicans and other Hispanics. Do you think I don't notice Ana's frustration with the fact her marriage is seen as "interracial" here? I am sure she would be just as upset if folks described her and her husband as two white people. Yes, I'll bet that would outrage her to be called white because we all know that in Brazil to be called white is a horrible, awful thing, so everyone works hard--even over generations to be declared black. Right?

To quote that 1960's Beau Brummels song "Laugh laugh, I thought I'd die, it seemed so funny to me........."
My Own Experience
written by The American Historian, January 26, 2007
And yes, here in Los Angeles there was my own interview with the "white" Brazilian woman who recounted to me her frustration with the white American Southern woman who told her she was not white. It was one of the first things she mentioned to me after a few minutes of conversation. SHE BROUGHT UP THE TOPIC, NOT ME.

In the U.S. there are three or four color designations. In Brazil there are dozens.
And you say we are the folks obsessed with color and race?

Once again "Laugh laugh I thought I'd die, it seemed so funny to me......"
From the Beau Brummels, circa 1965.
...
written by jabmalassie, January 26, 2007
"Struggle for liberty and equality did not begin and end with the U.S. Civil Rights movement - which by the way was multiracial"
Did I say that the struggle for liberty and equality started with the U.S. Civil Rights movement? I am sure MLK was influenced by others. Did the civil rights make America a better place for many to immigrate to? I would say yes.

I still believe there is no harm in exporting his ideals to other countries. If you are Brazilian and you truly believe in non segregation you should agree with his ideals and say that Martin Luther Kings ideals are the same as Brazils. The ideal maybe one the Brazil has already. I never said that his ideals should be "exported" to Brazil.
I just said there is nothing wrong with anybody being influenced by him whether it be South Africa or Brazil. Not to say that his ideals are not floating around anywhere else, but if he can influence someone in a good way, what is wrong with that? I heard someone trying to say something that we don't need that MLK type of thinking here in
Brazil. What is it that they disagree with? If you don't believe in his ideals it reveals something about you as a person. It has nothing to do with Capitalism or
Communism.

"In Brazil, Muslims are not forced to the back of the bus, there are not "white only" eating diners."

This ended a long time ago.
America is a capitalist country as well and democray if you forgot.
Correction
written by The American Historian, January 26, 2007
Respell "probably."
And Also
written by The American Historian, January 26, 2007
"relative."
TO: The American Historian
written by Ana P, January 26, 2007
I would be upset too since I am not just white either. I don't like the term interracial because I am human, I do not belong to another race. I am neither Black, white or indian, I am all of them. In Brazil no one keeps bringing my skin color or of any of my sibblings all the time like here. No one thinks I am on a "interracial" marriage even if I was dark morena.
There's only one race, THE HUMAN RACE!
I Believe You
written by The American Historian, January 26, 2007
I am serious when I say this Ana: I do believe you and take back what I said earlier. But you can't deny that many others in your original homeland feel differently, can you? And I do believe you--I am glad you cleared that up.
...
written by Ana P, January 27, 2007
Actually multiracial and black brazilians are not racist and don't want to be white. What pissed us off is the fact that we are being classsified as something we are not. White Elites or even pardos, mixed rich Brazilians are racist not only racist but they see anyone that are poor as having a contagious disease. But they make about 10% of the population and you cannot base a whole country on 10% of the population alone. Most of Brazilians just want to be accepted in the USA as brazilians nothing else, that's why most of us check "other" on goverment forms. I terms that bugs us most is Latino or Hispanic. I don't mind Latin, South American, of course Brazilian or even Brazilian-American referring to second generation.

"Latinos, meanwhile, is a contraction of "Latinoamericanos", and refers only to those from Spanish or Portuguese-speaking countries of Latin America, regardless of ancestry in all contexts. Those from French Canada are very rarely included, while those from Haiti are never. In the rare cases where they are, along with residents of French Guiana, it is with some ambiguities.

The confusion that arises is from the similarity between the words Latino and Latin, and between the concept of Hispanic and Latino. Latino is a shortened version of the noun Latinoamericano (Latin American). In the Spanish language "Latín" (Latin) is the name of the language of the Romans. This means that "Latín" is not confined solely to Hispanics, Latin Americans, or Latinos, but has always included such peoples as the Italians, French, Romanians, Portuguese, etc.

Thus, of a group consisting of a Brazilian, a Colombian, a Mexican, a Spaniard, and a Romanian; the Brazilian, Colombian, and Mexican would all be Latinos, but not the Spaniard or the Romanian, since neither Spain nor Romania is geographically situated in Latin America. Conversely, the Colombian, Mexican and Spaniard would all be Hispanics, but not the Romanian and the Brazilian; Brazilians speak Portuguese as Brazil has evolved from the former Portuguese colonies in South America. Finally, all of the above nationalities would be Latin, including the Romanian."

...
written by Ana P, January 27, 2007
another article, it will help you understand:
De brasileiros a latinos?!
''O estereótipo de latino está irremediavelmente ligado à posição e status da América Latina
na divisão internacional de trabalho. É exatamente esse status que é transferido aos
imigrantes''
Bernadete Beserra
Entre as várias surpresas que a vida nos Estados Unidos reserva aos brasileiros imigrantes, a
da nossa transformação em ''latinos'' é, sem dúvida, uma das que mais incitam a reflexão sobre
o que somos e em que podemos nos transformar circunstancialmente.
Descobri a minha identidade ''latina'' logo após o início do doutorado na Universidade da
Califórnia, Riverside, em 1995: um amigo americano (branco) perguntou-me como estava me
sentindo como uma mulher de cor nos Estados Unidos. Surpreendi-me com a pergunta porque
minha cor jamais havia sido posta em questão no Brasil. Achando que ele estava brincando,
respondi-lhe com outra pergunta: ''O que você quer dizer com mulher de cor? Que cor é a
minha?''. Ele respondeu: ''Por mim, você pode até passar por branca, mas não lhe disseram
ainda que você é latina?''.
Eu era branca, mas não podia reivindicar isto porque era também latina? Não entendi
imediatamente o que estava em jogo com a sua questão. Um ano depois, quando iniciei minha
pesquisa de campo sobre brasileiros imigrantes em Los Angeles, ouvi de Telma, primeira
entrevistada, a seguinte explicação: ''Após todos esses anos aqui, acabei aprendendo a ver as
pessoas como os americanos: defino rapidamente o que elas são, a raça. Fico até meio
envergonhada de dizer isto - e até nem acho que sou racista - mas não gosto quando as
pessoas falam comigo em espanhol porque não quero que pensem que sou mexicana, ou da
Guatemala, porque essas são raças que os americanos denigrem... Elas são... Como é que eu
posso explicar? Os latinos são como uma classe inferior para os americanos''.
...
written by Ana P, January 27, 2007
As observações de Telma sobre a sua integração em Los Angeles levaram-me a também
pensar sobre a minha. Eu jamais havia me sentido constrangida a esconder a minha latino-americanidade.
Mas também não havia parado para pensar mais profundamente sobre o
assunto: tinha certa consciência do racismo e colonialismo estruturando a vida e criando
hierarquias de classe, cor, gênero e nação no mundo inteiro, mas, como estudante de pós-graduação,
sentia-me beneficiada por ser da América Latina, especialmente no sentido da
camaradagem com estudantes e professores oriundos ou interessados na região.
Mas Telma nem estava usando a palavra ''latino'' como abreviação de latino-americano, como
entendi a princípio, e nem no sentido mais comum no Brasil, de acordo com o qual latino inclui
tudo que alude às conseqüências do imperialismo romano e refere-se tanto à América Latina
como aos seus colonizadores europeus. Ela estava, ao contrário, evocando outro significado, o
de posição social, racismo e discriminação.Por outro lado, ela não incluiu todas as nacionalidades latino-americanas na categoria latino.
Especificou mexicanos e guatemaltecos como os latinos de quem ela queria se distinguir e
explicou por que: Eles são como uma classe inferior para os americanos. Ora, eu também tinha
colegas mexicanos na Universidade e não os relacionava com classe inferior. Por que, então,
isto acontecia tão automaticamente na experiência dela?
...
written by Ana P, January 27, 2007
Quarenta e seis anos, morena escura, Telma imigrou para Los Angeles em 1975 e sempre
trabalhou em empregos domésticos. Mas além de um emprego típico de imigrantes latinos, ela
é fisicamente mais próxima do estereótipo do camponês mexicano do que do americano
branco ou negro. Assim, quando ela afirma que os latinos são considerados uma classe inferior
pelos americanos, ela está claramente afirmando que, na sua integração em Los Angeles, ser
classificada como latina serve apenas para reforçar as desvantagens da sua posição social.
Noutras palavras, ela está encarcerada na conotação negativa do rótulo: imigrantes pobres,
trabalho desqualificado e status inferior. No meu caso, acho que o rótulo evoca o
pertencimento geográfico primeiro, ou seja, quando afirmo que sou brasileira.Os estadunidenses não me conectam imediatamente a um destino social nos Estados Unidos. Sou
cidadã do Terceiro Mundo, o que, em termos gerais, também não é grande coisa, mas não sou
latina em função da aparência e lugar no mercado de trabalho.
É claro que por trás dos dois sentidos paira a crença colonialista e racista da superioridade dos
Estados Unidos sobre os outros países e, conseqüentemente, do homem branco sobre outras
expressões de humanidade. E, no final das contas, da perspectiva da geografia neo-colonial, o
estereótipo de latino está irremediavelmente ligado à posição e status da América Latina na
divisão internacional de trabalho. É exatamente esse status que é transferido aos imigrantes e
que permitiu ao meu amigo me questionar sobre como eu estava experimentando a vida como
uma mulher de cor nos Estados Unidos. Do ponto de vista do colonizador, portanto, pouco
importa a nacionalidade de cada ''latino''. Brasileiro, argentino, chileno, mexicano e dominicano
são todos iguais.O problema, porém, é que a utilização dos critérios da aparência e lugar no mercado de
trabalho na hierarquização social não é uma exclusividade da sociedade estadunidense. Ao
contrário, esses critérios funcionam com a mesma eficácia em todas as sociedades atingidas
pela expansão ocidental. E aqui, ao invés de buscar exemplos longínquos, aproveito para
iluminar um pouco a nossa própria realidade: a discriminação contra o nordestino no Sul e
Sudeste ou contra o sertanejo nas cidades litorâneas são expressões do mesmo racismo que é
tão facilmente observável nos Estados Unidos contra os latinos.
Em todos esses casos, como propõem Castles & Kosack (Immigrant Workers and Class
Structure in Western Europe. London: Oxford University Press 1973), a discriminação racista
contra o imigrante deve ser interpretada como uma conseqüência da função que ele
geralmente ocupa na estrutura social e não o contrário. Assim, cor e etnia não podem ser
fatores determinantes da posição social do imigrante porque esta já é definida a priori, uma vez
que a imigração é motivada para suprir demandas específicas de trabalho. Ou seja, a
discriminação generalizada contra os imigrantes é comparável àquela contra as classes
trabalhadoras e funciona como mais um elemento na hierarquia da exploração do trabalho.
Porém, uma vez que o estereótipo é construído tendo como base certo grupo étnico ou racial,
todos os indivíduos identificados com ele serão tratados semelhantemente, com exceção
daqueles que possuem atributos que lhes permitem ''provar'' que são exemplares distintos do
conjunto. Exemplo, os latinos cuja aparência permite vinculá-los a outros grupos raciais ou
étnicos podem se utilizar deste atributo para negociar a sua ''latinidade'' em outras bases, ou
mesmo passar por branco, negro ou o que for possível.
Por outro lado, embora com uma aparência que os vincule ao estereótipo, os latinos
pertencentes às elites também conseguem negociar a sua identidade mais favoravelmente.
Moral da história: os povos, as regiões, as raças e os países são mais ou menos valorizados
em função da distância em que se situam em relação aos modelos propostos pelos centros de
poder. Desse modo, seja como latino, nos Estados Unidos, ou nordestino, em São Paulo, a
vida é sempre mais fácil para os que têm pele mais clara e mais dinheiro.
Bernadete Beserra é Ph.D. em Antropologia pela Universidade da Califórnia, professora
da Universidade Federal do Ceará e integrante do Observatório das Nacionalidades.



Ana, thank you
written by A brazilian, January 27, 2007
You are a great participant in this forum, I wish more people would give insights to the bunch of clueless people in this forum. This text shows EXACTLY what these americans do. I always thought the same thing. Some of them even think they are helping people by doing it.

Once I met an american and we became friends, once I was talking to him the said something like "Hey, why don't you go to the US? They are in need of spanish teacher there". But I am a well paid person and have a good life in Brazil, I wouldn't think about moving to any other country unless some great opportunity appear (that translates to, a professional upgrade with considerably more money than I make today involved) . I know he didn't do it for bad, he thought he was helping me, because "latinos" are supposed to be starving brown people.

They have this notion that everyone from mexico and below are latinos, but not in the sense we brazilian would think (associated to the Roman empire of course), but in the sense of short and brown people that suffers all kind of ills and serves as toilet cleaners in the US.

I was horrified the first time I went to the US, by the clear separation of races and the stereotypes associated with them. Now I am used to it, but even so it causes my stomach to turn when clueless idiots such the "American Historian" suggests Brazil should learn from them. Learn? Are they mad?

Since I learned about the US I started enjoying Brazil a little more. Of course Brazil has problems, but this culture is beautiful!!
...
written by jabmalassie, January 27, 2007
we brazilian would think (associated to the Roman empire of course),

???
...
written by A brazilian, January 27, 2007
Maybe the american "historian" could tell you why, since he claims to be a historian. Latin is the language of Rome, it has influenced many other peoples in Europe that caused many languages to become some sort of derived of latin. Portuguese if a neo-latin language, the closest to the original some say. Other examples of neo-latin languages are spanish, french and italian.

Brazilians think of "Latin" as something related to Rome and the latin language for this reason, i.e., historical reasons. Most brazilians think of what americans call "latin america" as South America, but you will hear latin america being used as well in some places, but that's a minority and I have the impression that's used mostly in the context of something involving all american countries but the US. But definetely Brazilians don't call themselves "latinos" and don't like to be called like that unless that implies some sort of Roman heritage.

I have studied latin, it's very close to portuguese. Unlike americans that seem to try to glue latin words to english while keeping their original spelling (simply ridiculous and looks kind of forced), portuguese shares much more of the latin language.

I have read a few papers in english and some people use things like "Ergo". Oh my god! It screams "I want you to think I am intelligent" to me. Hahaha

Latin is beautiful and good for the mind, and easy for those who speak portuguese already.
...
written by bo, January 27, 2007
No one thinks I am on a "interracial" marriage even if I was dark morena.




Ana, you can say whatever you like, but I'm a white american, irish-germany heritage, my wife is a black brazilian, she calls herself "preta" but most here call her "mulata" or "morena", as if "negra" has a negative conotation to it.

I can tell you from our own personal experience, we frequent the best hotels and restaurants wherever we go. In our city I am friends with many brazilian businessmen, as well as politicians, that have lots of power as well as wealth, and I can tell you, that MANY of them simply don't approve and would never allow their sons to marry a woman such as my wife.
The bigot Bo
written by A brazilian, January 27, 2007
I can tell you from our own personal experience, we frequent the best hotels and restaurants wherever we go. In our city I am friends with many brazilian businessmen, as well as politicians, that have lots of power as well as wealth, and I can tell you, that MANY of them simply don't approve and would never allow their sons to marry a woman such as my wife.


I don't believe in you. Other brazilians and I have seen otherwise throughout life, thousands of times. I my own family I have seen it, I had msy friends that were what americans would call "interracial", we see it on TV, even on Globo soap operas (although I don't like them, I have already seen cases of it). Maybe you happen to walk with some racists, but I think the easiest probability is that you are exagerating things or simply inventing things because of your crusade against Brasil.
...
written by Brazuca, January 27, 2007
"Now I am used to it, but even so it causes my stomach to turn when clueless idiots such the "American Historian" suggests Brazil should learn from them. Learn? Are they mad?

LOL, that says it all, man! LOL

"Brazilians think of "Latin" as something related to Rome and the latin language for this reason, i.e., historical reasons. Most brazilians think of what americans call "latin america" as South America, but you will hear latin america being used as well in some places, but that's a minority and I have the impression that's used mostly in the context of something involving all american countries but the US. But definetely Brazilians don't call themselves "latinos" and don't like to be called like that unless that implies some sort of Roman heritage."

This is the same way I use the term Latin, to mean those people whose language derives from Latin. Celine Dion is just as much a Latin American as is Pele. Jacque Chirac is just as much a Latin European as is Valentino Rossi.

"I have read a few papers in english and some people use things like "Ergo". Oh my god! It screams "I want you to think I am intelligent" to me. Hahaha

It is true that Latin is often used in English to sound more learned. That's because it's so obscure and far removed from a Germanic language like English. But it's used a heck of a lot in law. And "ergo" is most often used in the context of logic, where Latin terms are pervasive.
Brazuca, Bo and My Albatross--A Brazilian
written by The American Historian, January 28, 2007
Ana, are Brazilian men this disagreeable? No wonder you married an American (as did Bo's wife).

Brazuca

Seeing that you earlier stated that Brazil's history was essentially "colorblind" (and I will go back to the specific quote if necessary), I thought you would be out right now writing all those books about blond-haired and blue-eyed slaves in Brazil who were lorded-over by those black-skinned Africans. Oh yes Brazuca, the slaves could be of any race and the rulers could be of any race. I look forward to your publication soon.

Bo
Hey Bo, don't you realize the reality you perceive is a figment of your imagination?
So is mine. Those wealthy brazilians who disapprove of your wife don't care about her race. They probably don't like her name, or her eye color, or the kind of shoes she wears. Yes, that must be it.

A Brazilian
written by The American Historian, January 28, 2007
Well, I should have known you would try to lump me in with a clueless American who thinks Brazilians all speak Spanish. I have known Brazilians speak Portugese since 1973, when my mother bought a Sergio Mendes album. I like Sergio, and I'll bet he knows racism is a problem in Brazil too.

And I was aware of the historic language links between the nations of Europe and the old Roman Empire. In some ways, the rulers of "Latin" America today still act like the old Roman rulers. In some ways, the leaders of the U.S. act like them too. You see A Brazilian, all of us are much more similar than we realize even if you do not want to admit it--there is much you could learn from the United States and its racial history.
You should take much more seriously the notion that history repeats itself over and over. Your country has repeated many of the mistakes of the old U.S. American South in ways I have noted above, and tragically it is affecting you on a countrywide basis whereas in the U.S. after the 1860's the South's misguided policies only affected one region.

Go ahead, you (or the Brazilian mindset for which you speak) don't have to listen to me. Many of you seem like an alcoholic in the early denial stage. We had those in the U.S. too. Why did God bless you with a country that has so much potential if you were not meant to have a special mission in this world? Well, it looks like you are failing in that mission and you should ask why and be prepared to try something different, even if it means listening to those gringos. And if you think confronting the race issue is not an important first step well you have a long way to go.

And as for the allegation about Bo, only at this forum could a white man married to a black woman be called a bigot while those who express disapproval of it be defended.
Only in Brazil. So what is your future, as a beacon of hope, or as the Portugese speaking equivalent of also-ran Argentina?
A Retraction
written by The American Historian, January 28, 2007
Okay, I take back the comment about Argentina.
One More Comment Today
written by The American Historian, January 28, 2007
Now A Brazilian, I just read the first comment you posted at the forum discussing Brazil's competitive edge. You guy would do very well at the comedy clubs here in the U.S.
Either That Or.....
written by The American Historian, January 28, 2007
Or that comment could have been posted under your name by me or Bo to tarnish your
good name. So what do you think?
...
written by e harmony, January 28, 2007
E Harmony
written by The American Historian, 2007-01-26 15:52:04

Not to waste too much of my breath on you...


Please don't.
American Historian
written by A brazilian, January 28, 2007
Brazil's mission is being fulfilled everyday, and it is creating the first truly raceless country in the world. You can't see it because hate blinds you.
...
written by e harmony, January 28, 2007
Sure Brazilians don't care About How Sonia is Seen
written by The American Historian, 2007-01-26 16:03:47

Yeah right E Harmony. Of course there are always exceptions, but the notion that so-called whites of Latin America are not extremely frustrated by the fact that many of them are not called white by the standards of the U.S. and Europe, well, I think you would make a great comedian up here for saying such a thing. Maybe I can book you at the comedy club this weekend. It drives many of them nuts that they are lumped in with those often darker skinned Mexicans and other Hispanics. Do you think I don't notice Ana's frustration with the fact her marriage is seen as "interracial" here? I am sure she would be just as upset if folks described her and her husband as two white people. Yes, I'll bet that would outrage her to be called white because we all know that in Brazil to be called white is a horrible, awful thing, so everyone works hard--even over generations to be declared black. Right?

To quote that 1960's Beau Brummels song "Laugh laugh, I thought I'd die, it seemed so funny to me........."


Frankly, I think your obsession of race, as well your need to attempt to coerce people into identifying themselves as you wish they would, is telling in regards to your opinions causation resulting from your own inferiority complex, not that of the ever attractive Ana Paula or the bilingual A brazilian. It never dawns on you - the impenetrable thick skull of gringos like you - that persons feel it their own right and obligation to define themselves. How they come to that definition of themselves, especially if they are mixed-race, can be many, especially in a country like Brazil that incorporates various elements of one's life into racial definition of themselves. Although it is an imperfect system, although it is not free of the touch of her European colonial past, it is nonetheless through her development a process resulted from the Brazilian's keen realization of the flaws and limitations inherent in the human concept of "race" within the genus Homo and the species homo sapien. So the Brazilian concept of "race" is much more fluid, and even democratic in the sense of individual empowerment and participation of self identification than that of the United States or Europe in contrast. One might even say the Brazilian culture has become a more artistic portrait in this sense.
...
written by e harmony, January 28, 2007
written by jabmalassie, 2007-01-26 16:45:02

"Struggle for liberty and equality did not begin and end with the U.S. Civil Rights movement - which by the way was multiracial"
Did I say that the struggle for liberty and equality started with the U.S. Civil Rights movement? I am sure MLK was influenced by others. Did the civil rights make America a better place for many to immigrate to? I would say yes.

I still believe there is no harm in exporting his ideals to other countries. If you are Brazilian and you truly believe in non segregation you should agree with his ideals and say that Martin Luther Kings ideals are the same as Brazils. The ideal maybe one the Brazil has already. I never said that his ideals should be "exported" to Brazil.
I just said there is nothing wrong with anybody being influenced by him whether it be South Africa or Brazil. Not to say that his ideals are not floating around anywhere else, but if he can influence someone in a good way, what is wrong with that? I heard someone trying to say something that we don't need that MLK type of thinking here in
Brazil. What is it that they disagree with? If you don't believe in his ideals it reveals something about you as a person. It has nothing to do with Capitalism or
Communism.


There is nothing wrong with this, jabmalassie, in and of itself. I apologize if I have misunderstood you or mistook your good intentions for something less than what they were. I also acknowledge the Civil Rights movement in the U.S. is something that should be credited with mostly black Americans. I just wanted to point out that it was a multiracial movement in case that some how be forgotten or swept under the rug.



"In Brazil, Muslims are not forced to the back of the bus, there are not "white only" eating diners."

This ended a long time ago.
America is a capitalist country as well and democray if you forgot.


Well... I can't entirely agree with your sentiment on this matter. On one level I do agree with your point it was a "a long time ago," on another level I do not agree with this kind of social and historical sentiment or interpretation. People sitting on the back of the buses in the U.S. is only one generation removed from, even slavery within Americas is not all that long ago, if we place those timed events and cultural/racial antagonisms against that of say the historical and social antagonisms within the cultures of the Balkans. Racial antagonisms are very strong in the United States very much to do with the "back of the bus" and other racialized elements of her national story and culture heritage not being so long ago. I would not say most peoples in the U.S. have racial hatreds, I think hatred is to strong a word, various races get along to well in the United States for most peoples to hate one another based upon their "races." What I think is very strong within the U.S. culture is what I would refer to as racial antagonisms which can lead to no more than racial cliques, to mocking other "races," to potential violence or even large or small scale riots based around "race" if the ingredients are right at any given moment or "build ups" that explode.

...
written by cold front, January 28, 2007
i did not call you a illiterate third world monkey breath... i pimply said , maybe your lonely because of your breath.....be honest ... ask your friends ..what they really think of your breath... if they are truly your friends, then they will tell you... try new things , change your diet, learn english, english spoken properly does not cause spitting stuttering, and, stomach and headaches, as say bastardized brazilian portugues spoken ... at any rate .. good luck... and with success you might .. just might now... finally get to hug mickey mouse...
...
written by Ric, January 28, 2007
Oh, how wistful! How poetic! The pathos of the very bleakest Russian novelists and yet the hope that springs eternal with the coming of the April flowers!

Please get a grip. While the beautiful Brazilian ladies, the idle rich, sit by the pool in their Rio penthouses with nothing better to do than contemplate their navels and tweezer out their nose hairs one at a time, you wax elequent by blogging. So artistic. So patriotic. So atavistic, except for the medium....
...
written by e harmony, January 28, 2007
written by A brazilian, 2007-01-26 21:57:43

You are a great participant in this forum, I wish more people would give insights to the bunch of clueless people in this forum. This text shows EXACTLY what these americans do. I always thought the same thing. Some of them even think they are helping people by doing it.

Once I met an american and we became friends, once I was talking to him the said something like "Hey, why don't you go to the US? They are in need of spanish teacher there". But I am a well paid person and have a good life in Brazil, I wouldn't think about moving to any other country unless some great opportunity appear (that translates to, a professional upgrade with considerably more money than I make today involved) . I know he didn't do it for bad, he thought he was helping me, because "latinos" are supposed to be starving brown people.


This is true that most Americans (USA) see in their minds eye or imagination this image when mention of Latinos in conjunction with Latin America comes up.

You might find it interesting (or maybe you won't)... but public television a few nights ago here in the USA - or at least in my city in the USA - had a documentary on Oprah Winfrey's life. Oprah was interviewed on the show by a person that researched her family past, Oprah in her own words and own mouth stated that when she was a small girl living in Mississippi she recalls living in a small house (or one might call then "shacks" for anyone that has ever witnessed with their own eyes the living conditions of some poor in the rural South) that had no toilet or running water. She stated they had to go to an out-house to use the bathroom and if they wanted water they had to literally "go get it." In her own words she said that when she goes to Africa today it was very much like that. She was speaking of many of the poor in certain areas of Africa (but certainly not those areas where people are starving [such as in some parts of Ethiopia today]).
...
written by bo, January 28, 2007
Bo
Hey Bo, don't you realize the reality you perceive is a figment of your imagination?
So is mine. Those wealthy brazilians who disapprove of your wife don't care about her race. They probably don't like her name, or her eye color, or the kind of shoes she wears. Yes, that must be it.



LOL...yep, I konw. My 30 years in the states, and 10 years of experience here in brazil has been nothing but the effects of a bad acid trip that my mother must have had shortly after I was conceived.....lol.
...
written by Seriously yours, January 29, 2007
the only race going on in the u.s.a... is ....the race to deport illegal aliens!!!
...
written by bo, January 29, 2007
She stated they had to go to an out-house to use the bathroom and if they wanted water they had to literally "go get it." In her own words she said that when she goes to Africa today it was very much like that. She was speaking of many of the poor in certain areas of Africa (but certainly not those areas where people are starving [such as in some parts of Ethiopia today]).



That is not unusual at all in northeast brazil and in other rural areas in brazil.....not unusual at all, today.
...
written by A brazilian, January 29, 2007
More than 80% of the brazilian population live in cities, therefore this situation is unusual for the majority of the population.
Oprah's Outhouse
written by The American Historian, January 29, 2007
Typical E Harmony type statement. Oh yes, most black Americans live in conditions not much different than the poorest Africans. (no no no, I never said that!) Well, then what relevance does it have to our conversation? At the time Oprah was growing up, some whites in Mississippi did not have indoor toilets. Whatever......

And I have no inferiority complex whatsoever buddy--I probably have read much more about the history of the various regions of the world than you have and no group of people have any reason to feel inferior to anybody else. Read the works of Jared Diamond--including "Guns, Germs and Steel" if you want to understand why some regions of the world developed more technology quicker than other regions. He lays it all out and it has nothing to do with race my pal. Yeah, reading before I make a broadsweeping generalization about a group of people--that might be a good idea.

And Finally Good Old E
written by The American Historian, January 29, 2007
Have you forgotten how these conversations started? We have had Brazilians at this forum who objected to more mixed race folks in their country calling themselves black--they are the folks upset about others calling themselves one thing or the other. I don't care what Ana or anybody else call themselves. You have some overly romanticized view of how race construction plays itself out in Latin America. Well, ask the Indians and blackest folks how well this wonderful system has worked out for them. You folks know, on some level it has not worked out for your regions nonwhites so you must wildly distort the the racial situation and the way blacks live in the U.S. Your motives are obvious.

Oh yes all whites and blacks in the U.S. hate each other. Oprah had no indoor toilet. Black Americans are discriminated against by everybody else in the world. Black Americans and Mexican Americans hate each other. Ana, all American black girls would hate you and attack you the second you set foot in their neighborhood. Oh please.......but everthing is much better in Brazil where we all love each other.

Interesting, but I have participated in forums with black Americans where I have been accused of being a lover white people and white women. Here I am accused of being a black nationalist who hates nonblacks. Hmmm, I should take that as a sign my analysis is probably rather fair and balanced.

Jabmalassie
written by The American Historian, January 29, 2007
Keep up the good work my pal. You are open minded and represent hope for the future. President Roosevelt during the Depression once said, in short, when a way of doing business is not working come up with a new plan, try it, and if it works use it but if it does not try something else. But by all means TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Good luck.
Respell
written by The American Historian, January 29, 2007
Everything
More Evidence Of Hate
written by The American Historian, January 29, 2007
Here in the U.S. last night, three of the four best acting awards (for feature films) went to African American actors as determined by the predominantly white Screen Actors Guild (Forrest Whitaker, Eddie Murphy and Jennifer Hudson). A fourth went to a black actress in a television series. I think it is all a trick. All those white folks who voted for those blacks probably plan to lynch them tonight right after they give them one last opportunity to use their own outhouse with Oprah. Probably, the CIA is behind it.
...
written by Ric, January 29, 2007
Historian, personal observation is not scientific, but I see discrimination in the states along different lines than in the past. First there is a Pavlovian fear for personal safety, which certain people can see in another´s eyes when coming in to a room. And it might be that the person feared is a hip-hop type or a skinhead or a guy with a turban. A farmer I know once told allvisitors to "go over and give that dog a kick" and after about six months of that the dog got so upset when strangers came around that they had to put it to sleep. Self protection is a basic instinct that all the legislation and pc teaching can do little to modify...

Secondly, in Nevada and California anyway, I think discrimination today is not basically race-based but based on perceived education or lack thereof, financial status and whether one is good-looking or homely. That´s what I see, at least.......
Ric
written by The American Historian, January 29, 2007
I agree, the factors you mention can all play a role. My family has been middle class for several generations, so while we have encountered some discrimination, we have not experienced as much as poorer black and brown folks.
...
written by e harmony, January 29, 2007
written by The American Historian, 2007-01-29 13:14:49

Typical E Harmony type statement. Oh yes, most black Americans live in conditions not much different than the poorest Africans. (no no no, I never said that!) Well, then what relevance does it have to our conversation? At the time Oprah was growing up, some whites in Mississippi did not have indoor toilets. Whatever......


No I didn't say that or imply that. This is why reading comprehension is so crucial to literacy. My response to A brazilian about Oprah's early childhood home had nothing to do with saying "most black Americans lived x,y, or z way," it was a reply in relation to stereotypes people from the U.S. have of Latin Americans. In other words not all Latin Americans live in abject poverty - on the other hand not all people of the U.S. live in tv image middle class lifestyles.


And I have no inferiority complex whatsoever buddy--I probably have read much more about the history of the various regions of the world than you have and no group of people have any reason to feel inferior to anybody else. Read the works of Jared Diamond--including "Guns, Germs and Steel" if you want to understand why some regions of the world developed more technology quicker than other regions. He lays it all out and it has nothing to do with race my pal. Yeah, reading before I make a broadsweeping generalization about a group of people--that might be a good idea.


Jared Diamond is a good man. He also has some good propositions but not all of his ideas are his own nor does his conclusions end all discussion or debate on the issue. He lacks an appreciation for the greater aspects of combat battle and this greatly limits his work in my opinion. The Inca simply were not the fighters the Spanish were - of course that is not to say that is the whole story it may remain a mystery forever as to why peoples like the Inca fell with such rapidity to the Spanish. Every military historian makes note of the so called "Western way of war," and it can not be denied from a fundamental ground combat level that the Amerindians and many other indigenous groups fought battles centered on traditions rather than continuous progress toward efficiency to killing.
Race Mixing does not Equal Great Race Relations in Every Case
written by The American Historian, January 29, 2007
Brazilians seem to think racial mixing is proof their race relations have always been good. Yes, that can sometimes be an indicator, but is does not end all debate on the topic A Brazilian. Thomas Jefferson said horrible things about blacks in 1786 in his "Notes on the State of Virginia" but just two years later took up with Sally Hemings in Paris as the Revolution was beginning. Angel Castro--the father of Fidel in Cuba--had an affair with Castro's mother, a mulatta, yet he would shoot at other Cuban blacks for sport on his plantation. White Supremacist Strom Thurmond had an affair with a black woman and paid for his daughter's upbringing and college (at a time when very few black women went to college) while he was running a pro segregation campaign for President in the 1940's. The greater amount of race mixing in your country was primarily a result of the fact you had more black and indian women and fewer white women. In the U.S., the reverse was true--more white women and fewer nonwhite women. You will have to come up with a lot more proof of your lack of racism than the "we are all colors" argument. That proves nothing, and is weak even if it is a fact that gets Brazuca and E Harmony all misty-eyed.

Check out the racist dad potrayed by the late Peter Boyle in "Montster's Ball." He makes racist and insulting comments to Halle Berry's character concerning "splitting the dark oak" and, to paraphrase "when I was a young man I had quite a few 'n gs in my day.'" Racist white guys can be attracted to and have sex with black women, and some of them have lived in Brazil A Brazilian, E Harmony and Brazuca. I know this is hard to accept, but true.
Correction
written by The American Historian, January 29, 2007
Should read "Monster's Ball."
E Harmony
written by The American Historian, January 29, 2007
I am glad to see you have read him (Diamond). And I saw nothing above which indicated why you brought up Oprah's outhouse. Given your history, I assumed it was meant as another slander of black Americans. If your purpose is to act as a feel good therapist for Brazilians E Harmony, well I think A Brazilian is doing a good job by himself.
...
written by e harmony, January 29, 2007
written by The American Historian, 2007-01-29 13:30:40

Have you forgotten how these conversations started? We have had Brazilians at this forum who objected to more mixed race folks in their country calling themselves black--they are the folks upset about others calling themselves one thing or the other. I don't care what Ana or anybody else call themselves. You have some overly romanticized view of how race construction plays itself out in Latin America. Well, ask the Indians and blackest folks how well this wonderful system has worked out for them. You folks know, on some level it has not worked out for your regions nonwhites so you must wildly distort the the racial situation and the way blacks live in the U.S. Your motives are obvious.


My brother stayed in Mexico with a Mayan family very briefly, as he was hired to film something in their Mexican region. They were extremely poor, dirt floor for the kitchen and stone slaps for beds. They were however he noted, amazingly much more happy and community orientated than our comfortable middle class back home here in the U.S. They are extremely devoted catholics also. This is not to say poverty is romantic or should be romanticized. But it does beg the question as to what degree one ought look down on Amerindians like the Maya in a haughty manner. But yes, it is true Amerindians throughout all the Americas have been subjected to social marginalization.


Oh yes all whites and blacks in the U.S. hate each other. Oprah had no indoor toilet. Black Americans are discriminated against by everybody else in the world. Black Americans and Mexican Americans hate each other. Ana, all American black girls would hate you and attack you the second you set foot in their neighborhood. Oh please.......but everthing is much better in Brazil where we all love each other.


I never said or implied all white and black Americans hate each other. In fact some of the most charitable people I have encountered in the U.S. have been white Americans. What I do claim, is that [b[racial antagonisms are very strong within the U.S. and consequently result in racial cliques and sometimes things such as riots. I also never stated all black Americans and Mexican Americans hate each other. What is fact however is that gangs in the United States are centered around race, and hence race itself becomes a certain symbolic language of foe or friendly in urban areas highly impacted by gang culture. And I also never stated that all black girls would hate Ana and attack her. I spoke a simple reality that if she walked around in a predominately black neighborhood like mine with any frequency (many if it happened a numerous times) during warm seasons, I feel confident in saying she would eventually get attacked by a gang of passing black teenage girls, because they would consider her "white" and also because of her extreme beauty. H*ll... for all I know Ana might have experienced being called a "white b*tch" already by some black chick she might have pissed off. Yes, it is true, black people do attack white people sometimes and black females do attack white females sometimes. It's not always black peoples the victims.


Interesting, but I have participated in forums with black Americans where I have been accused of being a lover white people and white women. Here I am accused of being a black nationalist who hates nonblacks. Hmmm, I should take that as a sign my analysis is probably rather fair and balanced.


Well... I guess there is a first time for everything.
Another Correction
written by The American Historian, January 29, 2007
Portrayed
My Goodness
written by The American Historian, January 29, 2007
Of course E Harmony, you just throw statements out there that can be interpreted in a variety of ways--including the worst possible ways--and then retract them with "that is not what I meant to say, I never said that....." Okay, those drugs I am doing are damn good--would you like some-- since I am imagining all of these things. I mean really, I've got some GOOD STUFF. You see, me and most other American black men are on drugs--no wait that's not what I said, I mean some are on drugs. All right very few are on drugs, that's what I meant to say. No wait, middle class blacks in the U.S. actually have lower rates of alcoholism and drug usage than middle class whites. That is what I meant to say and I am sure you could interpret it from my statement "all black men do drugs." Talk about literacy and reading comphrehension......
...
written by bo, January 30, 2007
...
written by A brazilian, 2007-01-29 10:36:58

More than 80% of the brazilian population live in cities, therefore this situation is unusual for the majority of the population.



So if 1 out of 5 brazilians live under these conditions you classify that as "unusual"????

Your idiocy never ceases to amaze!
...
written by bo, January 30, 2007
...
written by e harmony, 2007-01-29 17:21:10

My brother stayed in Mexico with a Mayan family very briefly, as he was hired to film something in their Mexican region. They were extremely poor, dirt floor for the kitchen and stone slaps for beds. They were however he noted, amazingly much more happy and community orientated than our comfortable middle class back home here in the U.S.


How would you or he know??? Thought you lived in a crack neighborhood??? Those are certainly not considered, "middle class".

Has anyone else noticed the difference in writing styles, vocabulary, syntax, etc with BOTH " A Brazilian" AND "e harmony"??

Go back through a couple weeks of posts, it's not difficult to see.
...
written by bo, January 30, 2007
Yes, it is true, black people do attack white people sometimes and black females do attack white females sometimes. It's not always black peoples the victims.



Naaaah, ya think??
...
written by e harmony, January 30, 2007
My Goodness
written by The American Historian, 2007-01-29 17:36:36

Of course E Harmony, you just throw statements out there that can be interpreted in a variety of ways--including the worst possible ways--and then retract them with "that is not what I meant to say, I never said that....." Okay, those drugs I am doing are damn good--would you like some-- since I am imagining all of these things. I mean really, I've got some GOOD STUFF. You see, me and most other American black men are on drugs--no wait that's not what I said, I mean some are on drugs. All right very few are on drugs, that's what I meant to say. No wait, middle class blacks in the U.S. actually have lower rates of alcoholism and drug usage than middle class whites. That is what I meant to say and I am sure you could interpret it from my statement "all black men do drugs." Talk about literacy and reading comphrehension......


Historian,

let me make this perfectly clear, as in situations I spoke of with black teenage girls in a pack potentially attacking Ana P, it is simply a fact that while most people are not like that (that is black females) there is a enough people like that that it will happen. Now what is "enough" people? I don't know, but what I do know "enough" people constitutes in my own use of that term is that it will happen. Like my young nephew who is white skin and has blonde hair and a brown mulatto father, there will come a day when some white associates of his tell him after seeing his father, "Your father is a n**ger." Now does that mean all white people are like that? No. But it is a fact that there are "enough" people like that that it will happen. And yes... a pack of young black teenage girls from the hood will try and kick, punch, and stomp at a pregnant woman's belly if they jump her. H*ll it's a common threat you'll hear teenage girls throw at pregnant teenage girls or women, "b**ch I'll kill your baby." And they mean it.
...
written by e harmony, January 30, 2007
written by bo, 2007-01-30 09:33:53

...
written by e harmony, 2007-01-29 17:21:10

My brother stayed in Mexico with a Mayan family very briefly, as he was hired to film something in their Mexican region. They were extremely poor, dirt floor for the kitchen and stone slaps for beds. They were however he noted, amazingly much more happy and community orientated than our comfortable middle class back home here in the U.S.



How would you or he know??? Thought you lived in a crack neighborhood??? Those are certainly not considered, "middle class".

Has anyone else noticed the difference in writing styles, vocabulary, syntax, etc with BOTH " A Brazilian" AND "e harmony"??

Go back through a couple weeks of posts, it's not difficult to see.



Sure, bo, you impersonate someone and then have the nerve to suggest others are impersonating or in deceit.

And middle class black neighborhoods (at least in the Midwest) are not like white middle class neighborhoods. You should know that if you know so much about the United States.
...
written by A brazilian, January 30, 2007
So if 1 out of 5 brazilians live under these conditions you classify that as "unusual"????


I didn't say that. I say more than 80% of the population lived in the cities, but it doesn't say that 100% of the people living in rural areas have no bathroom. Where did you get this idea from?

American Historian, the misinformer
written by A brazilian, January 30, 2007
Brazilians seem to think racial mixing is proof their race relations have always been good. Yes, that can sometimes be an indicator, but is does not end all debate on the topic A Brazilian.


Let us analyze this small piece of text. Your examples are evidence of what? That the brazilian mixing is a lie? That you can't blur the lines between races? That we will be differences?

First of all your examples of "white supremacists" are impossible to exist in Brazil since this is against the law. Anyone promoting racism would be arrested, and probably lynched by the population or by the cops. For example, around two years ago a person was arrested because someone denounced him for having pictures of Hitler at home. This is the level of intolerance with such things, a white supremacist movement wouldn't pass unnoticed.

Brazilian don't use only the example of biological function of reproduction, a purely animal instinct, as "evidence", but the fact that people actually live together as a family (it requires love, you know...) or friends without caring for race. This is the thing you seem to miss in your examples. If the US were as mixed as Brazil you would know the difference.

With the time the concept of race lost its meaning because of that. People identified with each other, regardless of race, so how can I be one thing and the she to be that other thing if we are so similar? "Race" doesn't carry the same meaning as in Europe or the US where it implies some sort of "purity" or "ancestry" or is something to be proud of. In the future it tends to disappear completely.

Now don't use the top 1% of the social pyramid, that probably spend a lot of time abroad either in the US or in Europe, as evidence of racism. And even for those that admit being racist it's not the same thing as in the US that usually involves violence and group-thinking.

The best way of disabling racists is the same as any other people in history, and the way it happens in Brazil, this is not only illegal but they are separated from each other and mixed with the rest of the population. They are divided to be conquered.

I don't know how you leave people to group together in the US, you should promote mixing as a way to finish with hate-groups (both whites and blacks) and any problem that might exist between races.
...
written by bo, January 30, 2007
...
written by A brazilian, 2007-01-30 14:26:49

So if 1 out of 5 brazilians live under these conditions you classify that as "unusual"????



I didn't say that. I say more than 80% of the population lived in the cities, but it doesn't say that 100% of the people living in rural areas have no bathroom. Where did you get this idea from?


And it certainly doesn't mean that 100% of the people living in urban areas have a bathroom, now does it?? matter of fact, just how many houses in the favellas do you think don't have an indoor bathroom?? Without question, numerous.
...
written by bo, January 30, 2007
by A brazilian



First of all your examples of "white supremacists" are impossible to exist in Brazil since this is against the law. Anyone promoting racism would be arrested, and probably lynched by the population or by the cops.



Now, I'm going to impersonate this mentally retarded idiot.

"uh, don't ya know, we dont have murderers in brazil, because that's against the law, if someone murdered someone else, they'd be in jail. And we don't have corruption either, because that's against the law. And we don't have slave labor either.....you guessed it, against the law!!"

A Brazilian.....seriously, you never get tired of showing your blatent IGNORANCE!
...
written by A brazilian, January 30, 2007
Bo, your comments are of such a low level. Do you remember the Argentinian football player that was arrested because of racism? That's enough to prove my point, such a simple name calling (the argentinian called one brazilian player a "macaco") was enough to make the population go mad and the guy to spend to some days in jail.

These kind of things aren't tolerated. If there were some white supremacist they would surely be hunt down, lynched, burned, dismembered, and if they survived they would go over all of it again when they reached our marvellous prison system!
...
written by bo, January 31, 2007
These kind of things aren't tolerated.


That doesn't mean it doesn't exist boner! Just because something is "against the law", certainly doesn't mean it doesn't exist, matter of fact, very much to the contrary!! Since, if it didn't exist, there would be no need for a law now would there??

Hey!! Who does this remind you of??? Can you guess A Brazilian???
written by bo, January 31, 2007
...
written by bo, January 31, 2007
...
written by bo, January 31, 2007
...
written by bo, January 31, 2007
The facts
written by A brazilian, January 31, 2007
...
written by bo, January 31, 2007
The facts
written by A brazilian, 2007-01-30 20:02:19

Here: http://esporte.uol.com.br/fute...92782.jhtm

Now shut up.


And that's a high-profile case bobão, do you think that because someone can't legally call another person a monkey that racism doesn't exist???

Obviously so!! But thank god we can still be predjudiced against the ignorantly stupid!!!
...
written by bo, January 31, 2007
American Historian, the misinformer
written by A brazilian, 2007-01-30 14:49:17

First of all your examples of "white supremacists" are impossible to exist in Brazil since this is against the law.




"Lying is forbidden in Iraq. President Saddam Hussein will tolerate nothing but truthfulness as he is a man of great honor and integrity. Everyone is encouraged to speak freely of the truths evidenced in their eyes and hearts."

Mark Wells seems to be analysing, not as an anthropologist, but with heavily biased Black tinted lenses.
written by Salsassin, February 01, 2007
First, if I recall correctly, Mark Wells is an African American anthropology student form Chicago so he would have an African American perspective and biases.

On his analysis of the Media, I have no qualms. The rich have only catered to the dominant Eurodescent population of the nation.

What I disagree with are some of his contentions

As I have written and many of us already know, at the end of the slave era in Brazil, elites believed that in order for Brazil to be taken seriously as a progressive country, its people had to become whiter. This whiteness was to be achieved in two ways; the mass importation of Europeans from various countries and through the process of race mixing.

As African descent peoples outnumbered white Brazilians by a ratio of about three to two near the end of the 19th century, predictions were being made as to how long the whitening (embranqueamento) process would take for Brazil to be hailed as a white nation.


I have always doubted the claims that admixture was caused by any desire for blanqueamiento. Mass immigration could have been an attempt to modernize/Europeanize the country more.

Looking at Brazil's population today, it doesn't appear that the predictions were quite right. If one were to believe census reports, whites make up 54% of the Brazilian population with the majority of the remaining 46% being a mixture of Brazil's original three people: the Indian, the African and the European. Again, that is if one were to believe census reports.

And the census reports do not lie. Branco is an ethno-social definition. As more people had mixed children inside a Branco community, the identity of Branco would spread its parameters of what a Branco could look like.

In reality, no one can say what the country's racial composition really is. There are those who believe that very few Brazilians actually match up to what North Americans or Europeans would accept as white. There are those who believe that the country is made up of a majority of African descent people of varying phenotypes.

Neither North Americans, nor northern Europeans were ever appointed as global arbiters of what whiteness constituted. At one point in time they didn't consider Mediterranean Europeans to be White either. Yet these people did see themselves as part of the White spectrum.

Just to get an idea of how daunting a task of getting an accurate count of who is what, a recent study showed that 30% of the people in a survey who self-declared themselves to be pardos (mulato or mixed race) were identified as pretos (black) by the interviewer. In a similar twist, 30% of those who self-declared themselves to be brancos (white) were identified as pardos by the interviewer (2).

The problem with a claim such as this, is it doesn't indicate what the background of the interviewer was. And what social conditioning he had. Was he American? In the USA people of mixed ancestry have been classified as Black for a long time.

Back in 2004, I remember walking the streets with one of the daughters of my host family in Bahia. She was light-skinned, but considered herself to be black (negra). I asked her if she had ever dated a white guy before. She said no.

Note that in Brazil ethnic upbringing will many times be what people will use as their identifier. But descriptive words can vary. SO a person might describe themselves as both mulata and negra. Saying they are mixed but have Black identity. In fact, in the census, the word for black is not negro, but preto. But the black identity movement that has borrowed heavily from the African American movement has been pushing for mulatos and other people of mixed Afrodescent to identify as negro.

I then reminded her that she said that she had never dated a white guy before. She confirmed that she hadn't. And "what about that guy", I asked. She then stopped walking as she turned to me to make her point. "Listen, I spent a whole year living in Germany, so I KNOW what real white people look like."

A common fallacy among militant people, and if she identifies as negra being light skinned it probably means she is strong at identifying Blackness and thus negritude in other mixed people as well, this would not be surprising, is to look for definitions based on extremes. A Nordic White person is hardly the definition of whom White people are. They are but a subset. Obviously, for her living there, it contrasted enormously with that of many brancos in Brazil look like and thus she claims people of mixed ancestry are not brancos (or Mediterranean for that matter). I doubt she would have had the
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written by Ana P, February 02, 2007
You've hit the nail right on the head... Great post.

P.S. In the USA they classified Mariah Carey as African American when she is clearly biracial. In Brazil she would be Branca. Crazy...
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written by usa, February 02, 2007
well lets get something straight, mariah carey a 100% american and astute business person, surely markets herself according to her public relation managers stratagies, she is also a very successful capitalist and represents how in america with determination,hard work ,talent, and inventivness, one can realize their dreams... this is american ... and this is why america is the greatest nation on earth....
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written by bo, February 02, 2007
I have always doubted the claims that admixture was caused by any desire for blanqueamiento. Mass immigration could have been an attempt to modernize/Europeanize the country more.



It wasn't just "mass immigration", it was mass "white european" immigration that the brazilian gov't. developed a policy to promote!
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written by bo, February 02, 2007
P.S. In the USA they classified Mariah Carey as African American when she is clearly biracial. In Brazil she would be Branca. Crazy...



Well, you've just shown your ignorance about brazil! Mariah Carey would NOT be classified as "white" in brazil, she would be classified as "moreana".
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written by Ana P, February 02, 2007
I am from Brasil. I know that she would be classified as a branca. Also morena is used to refer to a dark-haired women not just a brown-skinned one.

Mariah's carey pic: http://img124.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-16343/loc357/72575_sswq_122_357lo.jpg
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written by e harmony, February 02, 2007
written by Salsassin, 2007-02-01 15:32:26

Neither North Americans, nor northern Europeans were ever appointed as global arbiters of what whiteness constituted. At one point in time they didn't consider Mediterranean Europeans to be White either. Yet these people did see themselves as part of the White spectrum.


That's my boy Salsassin! smilies/grin.gif Good to see you around. Your multiracial and multicultural and multinational background and knowledge will be helpful here.
Congratulations Salsassin
written by A brazilian, February 02, 2007
Great post!
Salsassin
written by The American Historian, February 03, 2007
Where has Wells indicated that he (or myself for that matter) want mixed race Brazilians to identify as black? I would like to know where he asserts this since this is a charge you and others repeatedly are making.

Also, Wells cites many sources to support his theories. Where are yours? What I see are a bunch of personal opinions from you masquerading as long accepted truths.
And are your sources supported by top scholars today? After all, the Brazilian government itself acknowledges racism permeates all sectors of your country--not just the media, which is usually a reflection of a society's attitudes.

You folks are like the old Marxists, arguing that the perfect society has been created somewhere (at least in terms of race relations) that nobody else has ever managed to create.
Due to their unwillingness to see the reality everybody else saw, most folks did not take the Marxists seriously after awhile. Every country has some form of racism, ethnocentrism or tribalism. Brazil is no different. Over the centuries, no group has failed the mostly nonwhite masses of Latin America more than the so-called intellectuals speaking this "we are all one race nonsense." The choice of Latin America's Whites is clear: if you eally believe in one race, start acting like it. Talk is not enough. This has nothing to do with me wanting folks to call themselves black; I have a good life here in the U.S. and will be find no matter what people call themselves.

Oh, folks should stop with the "it's all the rich people who are racist." No people, human societies are more complicated than that.
Repellings
written by The American Historian, February 03, 2007
"if you really believe....."
will be fine no matter....."
The Flu
written by The American Historian, February 03, 2007
Man, this flu is a bitch.
American Historian
written by A brazilian, February 04, 2007
When someone completely destroys your arguments then you scream "where are your sources?". What!? And then you say the Brazilian Government acknowledges this or that, as if it were evidence. They will do whatever they believe they need to get votes, and giving the latest scandals in the government I wouldn't use it as an index to what's right.

BTW, if you look to the citations the author provides, some are really bogus links to supposed "facts" (they are only facts in the tortuous interpretation, biased towards racism of the author), some others are "studies" made by like-minded people, i.e., racists in disguise of intellectuals.
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written by bo, February 04, 2007
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written by A brazilian, 2007-01-30 17:19:40

Bo, your comments are of such a low level. Do you remember the Argentinian football player that was arrested because of racism? That's enough to prove my point, such a simple name calling (the argentinian called one brazilian player a "macaco") was enough to make the population go mad and the guy to spend to some days in jail.

These kind of things aren't tolerated. If there were some white supremacist they would surely be hunt down, lynched, burned, dismembered, and if they survived they would go over all of it again when they reached our marvellous prison system!



..they need to get votes
written by The American Historian, February 04, 2007
While your claim the Brazilian government fabricates studies to find racism in order to get votes is obviously bogus, let us assume it is true. You have made another slip-up my pal.
They must fabricate the claims because many Brazilians are complaining racism exists and they want the votes of such folks. Hmmmm........ Any replies Baghdad Bob?
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written by A brazilian, February 05, 2007
They will do what they believe they need to gain votes, not necessarily it means so.
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written by bo, February 05, 2007
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written by A brazilian, 2007-02-04 23:19:15

They will do what they believe they need to gain votes, not necessarily it means so.



You obviously didn't understand ONE WORD he said....he made perfect sense, and you showed your ignorance for the umpteenth time for not only not understanding, or directly replying, but the very fact that you stated that he/they could use that posture to win votes directly infers that there are a faction of brazilians that believe there is a problem with racism in brazil.
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written by Ric, February 06, 2007
Besides, Bob´s comment calls into question the integrity of the whole Brazilian government, a serious matter. How can you say without any disclaimer that "they will do what they believe they need to gain votes, not necessarily it means so", love that last phrase etc.
For "American Historian"
written by Salsassin, February 08, 2007
Where has Wells indicated that he (or myself for that matter) want mixed race Brazilians to identify as black? I would like to know where he asserts this since this is a charge you and others repeatedly are making.

It's called innuendo. It permeates his whole article.
Also, Wells cites many sources to support his theories. Where are yours? What I see are a bunch of personal opinions from you masquerading as long accepted truths.

Sources? Hardly, he cites articles, yes, but many are just opinions as well, or do not support his claims just one aspect of what he has said. For example, Wells claims that "Sem medo de revelar a cor" "a recent study showed that 30% of the people in a survey who self-declared themselves to be pardos (mulato or mixed race) were identified as pretos (black) by the interviewer." What he doesn't say is that the interviewers where previously trained to grade their interviewees by a previously decided color schema that they came up with. The organizers of the study were Cândido Mendes, a member of Estudos Afro-Asiáticos and Rosana Heringer of Instituto Ação Afro. Both are in the Black movement in Brazil.
And are your sources supported by top scholars today? After all, the Brazilian government itself acknowledges racism permeates all sectors of your country--not just the media, which is usually a reflection of a society's attitudes.

Feel free to quote the exact claim and I will give you sources. Racism exists in many countries. But not to the level that it exists in the USA. There is also colorism. But that exists in the US as well. The fact remains that social interaction and lower antagonism between groups is still much higher in most classes in Brazil.
You folks are like the old Marxists, arguing that the perfect society has been created somewhere (at least in terms of race relations) that nobody else has ever managed to create.
Nice strawman. I'll wait for your direct quote for where I have ever said Brazil was a perfect society.
Due to their unwillingness to see the reality everybody else saw, most folks did not take the Marxists seriously after awhile. Every country has some form of racism, ethnocentrism or tribalism. Brazil is no different.

Still a strawman. As I have never claimed otherwise.
Over the centuries, no group has failed the mostly nonwhite masses of Latin America more than the so-called intellectuals speaking this "we are all one race nonsense."

And then a clearly biased and flawed claim by an obvious Afrocentrist. We are all one race, one species. That doesn't change the existence of racism based on beefs in race, or even colorism based on ancestry and hierarchy of class and ancestry. You have to combat racism along with classism. One action does not invalidate the other.
The choice of Latin America's Whites is clear: if you eally believe in one race, start acting like it. Talk is not enough. This has nothing to do with me wanting folks to call themselves black; I have a good life here in the U.S. and will be find no matter what people call themselves.

First, prove that most Latin Americans don't believe in one race. Many do and still segregate because of class and ethnicity. Racism isn't the only discrimination out there. And yes, with numbers comes power, and the fact that you are posting here means you are concerned, no matter how cushy your life here.
Oh, folks should stop with the "it's all the rich people who are racist." No people, human societies are more complicated than that.

The majority of active racism is practiced by the rich who are more intolerant. Yes there are other cases of racism and colorism among other classes, but much lower and you cannot blame the whole country for the acts of the rich who have a much higher homogeneity than the rest of the population.

For Bo
It wasn't just "mass immigration", it was mass "white european" immigration that the brazilian gov't. developed a policy to promote!

It was mass migration from countries that they saw as being able to bring more human resources, That included middle easterners and Asians as well. And Yes European. The rulers did come from that region and wanted more people like them.
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written by Ric, February 10, 2007
Oh, did they? Was mass migration primarily fostered by the Catholics? If anyone should be against weapons of mass destruction, it should be they. Got a good grasp of that Straw Man concept, didn´t you? And thanks for the references to colorism and classism. Did you copyright that?
identity crisis
written by Who Am I ???????, February 11, 2007
I am a white brazilian in the u.s.a. ... am i having difficulty finding a job because #1 I can,t speak english #2 my documents are all fraudelent #3 i,m a illegal alien # 4 I got caught watching a brad pitt movie ( by my jealous illegal brazilian boyfriend)...# 5 my breath smells ... #6 I wear old che guevarra t- shirts ... # 7 I owe my trafficker in Brazil 10,000.... so ,... when they come to deport me can i claim racism??????????
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written by Ric, February 11, 2007
Yes, actually you can claim anything you want, you can sue anyone for anything, you can even commit suicide by eating caustic soda like one Brazilian friend of mine did. (A lingua dele ficou para fora, o levaram para o hospital na capital, tava bonzinho relativamente até o segundo dia quando não aguentou mais e bebeu água. Aí espoucou todinho, espatificou, sabe?)

You might want to trade your t-shirts for ones that say, "Félix Rodrigues Lives!" which I think in his case is actually the truth.
Black female from Brazil
written by JC, October 07, 2007
For Mark Wells and his friends.

The American obesity Association states that USA has 127 millions of overweight people. When I go out in the streets of the US I see them around. When I watch TV or look at a magazine I don't see them at all. Few of the women I see in the real world lfrom the US ook like the ones I see on the cover of the magazines. Your comments about Brazilian TV not showing the real Brazil is nothing more than pathetic, in fact, all of you comments about Brazil are pathetic too.

Forensic can explain why Brazilians look more Black then they claim. Brazilians in general didn't segregate races and the mix between themselves have made them look darker, since Black gene is the dominant one. Look at myself. I was born in Brazil and I am Black. I must say people would call me Black in any part of the world just to clarify. My daughter is white and I must say, people would call car white in any part of the world. Do you know why is that? Because I am more white than I seem to be. Just like other Blacks you have seen in Brazil.

Because you went to Brazil few times and watch Globo TV that doesn't make you any expert in the Brazilian race. My great grandfather was from Spain but didn't want anyone to talk about his background because immigration reasons.

I don't know the reasons behind your efforts on defaming Brazil but you have got to stop. Before you open up you mouth to talk about Brazil have some statistical credible evidence to back you up. Everything you say sounds like beliefs of a fanatic full of hate.

Please, give yourself a nice vacation and relax. Away from Brazil of course.

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