Brazzil

Since 1989 Trying to Understand Brazil

Home

----------

Brazilian Eyelash Enhancer & Conditioner Makeup

----------

Get Me Earrings

----------

Buy Me Handbags

----------

Find Me Diamond

----------

Wholesale Clothing On Sammydress.com

----------

Brautkleider 2013

----------

Online shopping at Tmart.com and Free Shipping

----------

Wholesale Brazilian Hair Extensions on DHgate.com

----------

Global Online shopping with free shipping at Handgiftbox

----------

Search

Custom Search
Members : 22767
Content : 3832
Content View Hits : 33087773

Who's Online

We have 479 guests online



Briefing Bush on Brazil the CIA Way PDF Print E-mail
2007 - March 2007
Written by John Fitzpatrick   
Sunday, 04 March 2007 06:42

Brazilian protesters's sign against US president: Off with BushAhead of President George W. Bush's visit to Brazil I thought I would try and find out how he might be briefed by his advisers. Unfortunately I have no contacts at the White House or the American embassy so I had to seek out public sources such as the CIA, the State Department and the Library of Congress. Presumably Washington has learned a lot since Ronald Reagan's embarrassing toast "to the people of Bolivia" during a visit to Brasília in 1982 and Bush will be provided with up-to-date, accurate advice.

If this advice is based on what is available on these official US sites then Mr. Bush should be very careful in what he says publicly since he risks upsetting his hosts. If, on the other hand, he decides to rely on the Brazilian foreign ministry then he will not learn much at all since not only is its English-language site amateurish and outdated but, at times, baffling.

There are many American sites on Brazil, often from academic institutions, but I chose the three official ones mentioned in the introduction. Overall they are quite impressive and comprehensive although it is difficult to imagine Brazilians agreeing with many of the statements and conclusions.  The Library of Congress site has not been modernized since 1997, so is of no value in terms of current affairs, but it does have a lot of interesting more general material.

I wonder if Bush will handle Lula in the light of its comment on dealing with Brazilians on a personal level: "At the level of interpersonal relations, in contrast to what is usually found in Spanish-speaking Latin America, where behavior tends to be more formal and rigid, there are in Brazil strong cultural values in favor of conciliation, tolerance, and cordiality. To the extent possible, direct personal confrontation is avoided.

"This Brazilian style of behavior may be derived from an Iberian and colonial heritage of diverse ethnic groups living together, weaker central authority exercised by the Portuguese crown, and day-to-day practical forms of resistance to exploitation. It may also have an element of popular emulation of the genteel behavior of the elites. Whatever its origins, Brazilians are known for their informality, good nature, and charm (simpatia), as well as their desire not to be thought unpleasant or boorish (chato). They place high value on warmth, spontaneity, and lack of pomp and ceremony."

Lest the visitor gets the wrong idea, this is followed by an immediate warning. "Though they are cordial and magnanimous at the interpersonal level, Brazilians as a whole are exploitative with regard to the environment. This attitude has been explained in terms of the bandeirante or conquistador mentality by authors such as Viana Moog and Jorge Wilheim.

"According to this interpretation, the general spirit of the colonizer of yesteryear or today is to accumulate as much wealth as possible as quickly as possible and then move on. Whatever its roots, the result of this kind of behavior is individualism, transience, and disregard for others and for nature as opposed to stability, solidarity, equilibrium, and equity. It has led to both human and environmental degradation."

Those Selfish Brazilians

The writer goes on: "In a similar fashion, Brazilians tend not to think in terms of the common good. Discourse invoking mutual benefit for all concerned is often mistrusted as a disguised justification for colonialism or exploitation. The result of widespread evasion of rules imposed by the central authority is a vicious circle involving crackdowns and inspections (fiscalização) to enforce ever-tougher rules and ever more sophisticated and ingenious ways of evading the rules (burla). This tendency often blocks the efforts of those who are well-intentioned, without creating major obstacles but rather making their work easier for the truly dishonest."

Brazilians may find remarks like this patronizing if not downright offensive but, like it or not, that is the impression many foreigners have. No doubt many Brazilians would describe the American attitude as being marked by an exploitative, get-rich quick culture and "individualism, transience, and disregard for others".

Race is another issue where you would imagine there would be a common understanding, since both the US and Brazil have a large black population, but the differences are apparent. The modern American view that one drop of black blood in your ancestry makes you black, rather than white or mixed race, highlights this difference. A good example of this simplistic approach to race is the problems the Democratic presidential candidate, Barack Obama, is having in the eyes of some blacks who think he is not black enough or black at all.

Mixed Up Over Mixed Race

In its section on the ethnic make-up of the population, the State Department site says:" Despite class distinctions, national identity is strong, and racial friction is a relatively new phenomenon." I don't know how the writer reached this conclusion since I have never seen a single example of "racial friction" in Brazil.

This does not mean that there is no discrimination or prejudice but there is none of the ill-feeling here that is prevalent in the US since Brazilians are not as quick as identifying themselves as black. The self-indulgent American cult of being a "victim" or explaining unsocial behavior on racial grounds is also absent.  

Even in the US, this Afro-centric attitude is relatively recent. Well into the 60s many Americans of mixed race tried to conceal their black ancestry, lighten their skins and straighten their hair. The Walter Mosley novel "Devil in a Blue Dress" set in Los Angeles in the 40s is a good example. The story revolves around what appears to be interracial couple - a black man and a white woman - who turn out to be brother and sister of mixed race.

This racial ambivalence still happens today but it is not politically correct to mention it. Michael Jackson is a freaky example of a black man who wants to be white. Compare a singer like Beyoncé with Aretha Franklin and you can see how Beyoncé has virtually turned her back on her race in terms of skin color and hairstyle, with only her features showing her African descent.

In the early 90s I wrote an article about Washington for the internal magazine of a multinational company in which I mentioned how many "black" people I had seen who were obviously of mixed race and made a comparison of race relations in the US and Brazil. The response from the American division of the company was almost hysterical and I was vilified for daring to raise a subject that the Americans regarded as taboo.

To say that people like Muhammad Ali, Denzel Washington or Colin Powell obviously had some white forebears was like committing a sacrilege. By contrast, there was not a peep of protest from readers in Europe, Asia or Latin America.     

The Library of Congress highlights the different approaches to race and makes an interesting point when it says that that claiming to be "black" could even be seen as being unpatriotic in Brazil. "Because of the lack of a clear color distinction and a strong cultural tradition of tolerance and cordiality, as well as longstanding explicit laws against racial discrimination, Brazil has been touted as a "racial democracy."

However, "racial democracy" is a myth. There is a very strong correlation between light color and higher income, education, and social status. Few blacks reach positions of wealth, prestige, and power, except in the arts and sports. Although discrimination is usually not explicit, it appears in subtle forms: unwritten rules, unspoken attitudes, references to "good appearance" rather than color, or simply placing higher value on individuals who are white or nearly white.

In the 1960s, black consciousness began to grow, although the very lack of a clear color line in biological or social terms weakened racial solidarity of the nonwhite population. The prevailing notion that Brazil was a "racial democracy" also made it easy to dismiss black movements as un-Brazilian.

For the most part, the movements did not press for changes in government policy, which was already officially against racial discrimination. Instead, they emphasized racial pride and the struggle against subtle forms of discrimination and the often covert violence to which blacks were subject."

Sex, Drugs and Slavery

This is what the CIA has to say about trafficking in two areas - sex and drugs - and forced labor i.e. slavery. "Brazil is a source and destination country for women and girls trafficked for sexual exploitation within Brazil and to destinations in South America, the Caribbean, Western Europe, Japan, the US, and the Middle East, and for men trafficked within the country for forced agricultural labor; child sex tourism is a problem within the country, particularly in the resort areas and coastal cities of Brazil's northeast; foreign victims from Bolivia, Peru, China, and Korea are trafficked to Brazil for labor exploitation in factories  Brazil has failed to show evidence of increasing efforts to fight trafficking, specifically for its failure to apply effective criminal penalties against traffickers who exploit forced labor."

On illicit drugs, Brazil is described as an "illicit producer of cannabis" and the site refers to: "trace amounts of coca cultivation in the Amazon region, used for domestic consumption; government has a large-scale eradication program to control cannabis; important transshipment country for Bolivian, Colombian, and Peruvian cocaine headed for Europe; also used by traffickers as a way station for narcotics air transshipments between Peru and Colombia; upsurge in drug-related violence and weapons smuggling; important market for Colombian, Bolivian, and Peruvian cocaine; illicit narcotics proceeds earned in Brazil are often laundered through the financial system; significant illicit financial activity in the Tri-Border Area."

Yankee, Go Home!

Latin America has always had mixed feelings about the US, loving and hating it at the same time. One of the reasons many Brazilian do not like the US is because they believe Washington helped install the military government which ran the country for two decades. The CIA site steers clear of any controversial historical claim that it was behind the coup which brought the military to power in 1964 but the Library of Congress pulls no punches. Its description of events ends with a sting in the tail for the US.

This is what it says: "In late 1963, Washington, alarmed that Brazil might become a hostile, nonaligned power like Egypt, reduced foreign aid to Brazil. The exact United States role in the March 31, 1964, military coup that overthrew Goulart remains controversial.

However, the United States immediately recognized the new interim government (before Goulart had even fled Brazilian territory); a United States naval task force anchored close to the port of Vitória; the United States made an immediate large loan to the new Castelo Branco government (1964-67); and the new military president adopted a policy of total alignment with the United States."

"The Castelo Branco regime broke off relations with Cuba (while enhancing them with the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe); purged or exiled leftists and alleged communists; adopted a more discreet position in the UN vis-à-vis Portuguese colonialism; duly compensated expropriated foreign capital investments; passed a new profit remittances law; and sent a 1,200-man battalion as part of the Interamerican Peace Force to the Dominican Republic in 1965.

"Brazilian foreign policy centered on combating subversion and contributing to the collective security of the hemisphere. Brazil ranked third after Vietnam and India as recipients of United States aid; it received US$ 2 billion from 1964 to 1970. Nonetheless, Castelo Branco's all-out support for United States policies only served to increase anti-Americanism rather than to lessen it."

This is exactly what President Bush will have to deal with this. He is probably the most unpopular US president in the history of Brazil and will have a hard job trying to improve this image. 

The CIA site shows that it still has a lot to learn in terms of handling Latin American sensitivities. For example, it describes the area where Brazil, Paraguay and Argentina meet as an "unruly region" which is the "focus of money laundering, smuggling, arms and illegal narcotics trafficking, and fundraising for extremist organizations."

This echoes an American government claim that Muslim extremists are using this region to raise funds in support of terrorism. There may well be some truth in this claim but no hard evidence has been found to justify it and the statement could be qualified to say so.

Watch out for Voodoo!

In a short item on religion, the CIA site claims that 0.3% of the Brazilian population practice "Bantu/voodoo", whatever that is. Perhaps this explains why the US was so keen on Brazil sending peacekeeping troops to Haiti under the UN banner. No doubt the Brazilian voodooists among the troops  will be getting on well with their co-religionists in Haiti, dancing round fires at midnight, biting off chickens' heads, falling into a trance before turning into zombies and terrorizing the bad guys in Port-au-Prince. Maybe when the troops come home they can try this tactic out in the favelas in Rio de Janeiro.


Paraguayans and Argentineans also get short shift from the CIA. For example, the CIA's map of Brazil shortens the name of neighboring Paraguay to Para, a rather careless abridgement since Para is also the name of one of Brazil's Northern states. Does the CIA know something we don't? Is Brazil about to invade Paraguay and cut it down to size not only territorially but also nominally? (By the way, many Paraguayans do believe Brazil wants to take over their country.)

The CIA map of Argentina is also somewhat insensitive. It describes the South Atlantic islands which led to a war between the UK and Argentina in 1982 as the "Falkland Islands", with the Argentinean name "Islas Malvinas" underneath and an explanatory "administered by UK claimed by Argentina" in brackets. Since Argentineans are absolutely fanatical about their claim to the  Falklands is this why Bush is not visiting Argentina on this trip even though he will be just across the River Plate from Buenos Aires in Uruguay?

Anyone Got an Atlas?

Despite these failings of the American sites, Bush should just ignore the English-language site of the Brazilian foreign ministry which has a dusty, neglected look. The latest press release is from September last year. The section on bilateral relations with the US dates from 2001 and does not even mention Lula despite the fact that he has been President since 2003. Not only are some of the links out of date - a section on the economy provides no hard statistical information after 1999 - but others are dead.

There are also some oddities which make you wonder if the foreign ministry owns an atlas or a globe of the world. Under the bilateral section for "Africa" we find distinctly non-African countries like Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan and Syria, along with the Palestinian Authority. The "Asia and Oceania" section does not mention China, India or Australia although surely Brazil must have some agreements with these countries.

The "South America" section does not even mention the Mercosur partners, Argentina, Paraguay or Uruguay. Mexico is included under "North America" while "Central America" includes Jamaica, Cuba, Haiti and Trinidad and Tobago. The "Europe" links takes you to page which says "Alemanha, Andorra, Austria" and directs you to another page in Portuguese which gives you the address of a department responsible for relations with 54 European countries.

Bem-vindo ao Brasil,  Sr. Bush!

Notes:

1) Sites referred to: cia.gov, state.gov, loc.gov, mre.gov.br.

2) In reply to Reagan's remark, an advertisement was placed in a São Paulo newspaper the following day with the headline "The people of Bolivia appreciate the visit of the President of Canada."

John Fitzpatrick is a Scottish writer and consultant with long experience of Brazil. He is based in São Paulo and runs his own company Celtic Comunicações. This article originally appeared on his site www.brazilpoliticalcomment.com.br. He can be contacted at jf@celt.com.br.

© John Fitzpatrick 2007



Add this page to your favorite Social Bookmarking websites
Reddit! Del.icio.us! Mixx! Free and Open Source Software News Google! Live! Facebook! StumbleUpon! TwitThis Joomla Free PHP
Comments (82)Add Comment
...
written by Slimseun, March 04, 2007
Spot on, John, especially the comments on the two countries' perceptions of race.
...
written by Dana, March 05, 2007
Great text John Fitzpatrick, maybe we can say you and Brazil are talking the same languge!?? It is about time .
...
written by Eddie, March 05, 2007
Very good Mr Fitzpatrick and I hope more comments on this visit.
Ya know John...
written by bo, March 05, 2007
with all the frothing anti-americanism that's been going on here in brazil over the last several years, you're certainly not helping matters. As you yourself stated..


Ahead of President George W. Bush's visit to Brazil I thought I would try and find out how he might be briefed by his advisers. Unfortunately I have no contacts at the White House or the American embassy



And that's where you should've left your article.
...
written by bo, March 05, 2007
In the early 90s I wrote an article about Washington for the internal magazine of a multinational company in which I mentioned how many "black" people I had seen who were obviously of mixed race and made a comparison of race relations in the US and Brazil. The response from the American division of the company was almost hysterical and I was vilified for daring to raise a subject that the Americans regarded as taboo.



And there's the axe.
...
written by bo, March 05, 2007
The CIA site shows that it still has a lot to learn in terms of handling Latin American sensitivities. For example, it describes the area where Brazil, Paraguay and Argentina meet as an "unruly region" which is the "focus of money laundering, smuggling, arms and illegal narcotics trafficking, and fundraising for extremist organizations."

This echoes an American government claim that Muslim extremists are using this region to raise funds in support of terrorism. There may well be some truth in this claim but no hard evidence has been found to justify it and the statement could be qualified to say so.



Wow, unreal how you would attempt to deny that drugs, money laundering, and black market everything isn't going on in the tri-border region. This is well known, not only by the U.S. gov't., but by Argentina, Paraguay, and Brazil. Why do you think that those three countries have allowed the U.S. department of homeland security put their agents on the ground there and set up offices, working together with the authorities from each country? Ask the Argentinian gov't. who they believe to be responsible for the bombing of the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires in 1990. Also there's a guy you may have heard of, Osama Bin Laden, he was also in that region during the '90's, but I'm quite sure it was only for a vacation. (rolleyes)
Tabu
written by Ric, March 05, 2007
Most Americans regard Tabu as a fragrance mainly used by our African-American brethren.
Mr. Fitzpatrick
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, March 05, 2007
Bad article, with wrong information regarding the history of Brazil. Mr. Fitzpatrick. I am impressed that you lived in Brazil for so long and still do not get it. Brazilians also supported the Military coup in 1964. We had a crazy president in power that was kissing the ass of the Soviets. The military lost its support only after 1968. Get your info straight.

The modern American view that one drop of black blood in your ancestry makes you black, rather than white or mixed race, highlights this difference.


I believe sir that the modern scholars in the United States already proved that the one drop of Black blood does not apply in the United States or anywhere in the World. Not even your native Great Britain where people are a mixed of many civilizations and people, even African blood that the Romans introduced in Britain.

...
written by A brazilian, March 06, 2007
Brazilians also supported the Military coup in 1964. We had a crazy president in power that was kissing the ass of the Soviets.


What!? In what history book have you read it?

even African blood that the Romans introduced in Britain


Huh?
A brazilian, here is a website from FGV, this is common knowledge.
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, March 06, 2007
Entretanto, o golpe militar foi saudado por importantes setores da sociedade brasileira. Grande parte do empresariado, da imprensa, dos proprietários rurais, Carlos Lacerda e Cordeiro de Farias (1955). da Igreja católica, vários governadores de estados importantes (como Carlos Lacerda, da Guanabara, Magalhães Pinto, de Minas Gerais, e Ademar de Barros, de São Paulo) e amplos setores de classe média pediram e estimularam a intervenção militar, como forma de pôr fim à ameaça de esquerdização do governo e de controlar a crise econômica. Antônio Carlos Muricy, Magalhães Pinto e Aurélio Lira Tavares numa cerimônia de condecoração do primeiro (entre 1967 e 1969). O golpe também foi recebido com alívio pelo governo norte-americano, satisfeito de ver que o Brasil não seguia o mesmo caminho de Cuba, onde a guerrilha liderada por Fidel Castro havia conseguido tomar o poder. Os Estados Unidos acompanharam de perto a conspiração e o desenrolar dos acontecimentos, principalmente através de seu embaixador no Brasil, Lincoln Gordon, e do adido militar, Vernon Walters, e haviam decidido, através da secreta "Operação Brother Sam", dar apoio logístico aos militares golpistas, caso estes enfrentassem uma longa resistência por parte de forças leais a Jango.


http://www.cpdoc.fgv.br/nav_fa...olpe64.htm
Very good comparison on the Race - My comment from African American Perspective
written by Arthur Butler, March 06, 2007
I am an African American with a Brazilian mother. I say African-American because that is the culture that I identify with most since I was born and raised in the U.S. Much of what you say is true in the comparison between races, but somewhat simplified, of course to fit into the scope of the article. And I know this part is definitely on track about: To say that people like Muhammad Ali, Denzel Washington or Colin Powell obviously had some white forebears was like committing a sacrilege. By contrast, there was not a peep of protest from readers in Europe, Asia or Latin America.
But I want to go further to explain why many but not all blacks respond the way they do. First these are very successful blacks that you mentioned, as American history is littered with contributions from blacks, especially as inventors (science), music, sports, the non sports and non music contributions are almost never taught. America has always tried to water down or deny the contributions of blacks as insignificant. That is partly why some respond the way the do, they may think by saying that they obviously have white blood, that you are taking away from their blackness and watering down their significance as positive blacks in America. The other is that "Blackness" in America is more about your culture and not just your skin color. It was "white American" that determined that just by have 1/16 drop of black blood you were treated as such. Only now am I starting to see a change among mixed race kids as identifying themselves as such. This is because in the past if you were mixed you were discriminated against as if you were black. Ultimately understand that blackness in America is you’re "Culture" and not how much black you have in your blood. It is the Sunday dinners at Grandma's house, the large family gatherings and cook outs, story telling, the way you walk and the clothes your wear, the music you listen to, the way we dance, our focus on education and family. Ironic that the culture that I am mentioning is not typically seen world wide, on MTV and BET. Ask Colin Powell, Muhammad Ali and Denzel Washington what's their race and they will all say Black, because of their culture. Barrack Obama was asked exactly that on 60 minutes two weeks ago and he responded exactly how I responded in this article. "I identify with being Black" because my culture is black even though my mother is white.

Okay with all that being said. Blacks still shouldn't react the way they did because what your are saying is the truth. But I hope that all that read this comment understand that blackness in America has more to do with culture than how much black blood is flowing through your veins.

So where does Brazil come into the picture. What "Black Americans" can learn from "Brazilians of African Descent". Stop spending so much time convincing America that you are a victim. Move on. America has victimized us for centuries, things are changing and we should too. By perpetuating the victimization we truly victimize ourselves. America will never apologize, it would cost too much. And we no longer have an excuse to succeed in the good old U.S.A.

What can Brazilian's learn from African American's. Fight for protection under the law against the subtle and unspoken forms of discrimination for all, these forms of discrimination is just as bad if not worse than the overt.
...
written by Andy Murphy, March 06, 2007
TO:Ludwig Van Beethoven

Your comments are very interesting. I have heard similar ones from many of my Brazilian friends.In 1960´s, the inflation was low,the Government did not encourage education,no employment for educated youth, etc; The revolution took place in 1964,because of the "panalaço" of the middle class Brazilans

Since my reading knowledge of Portuguese is very good, I did go through your comments in that language. Absolutely interesting and eye openers.
John, said it all !!!!!!
written by ch.c., March 06, 2007
Brazilians as a whole are exploitative !!!!!!

And dont you have far more slaves than your official numbers ???? Of course...you do ! Even you SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN HAVE SLAVES...IN THEIR LARGE FARMS !!!!!

Be proud to be against slavery but have slaves alike, by the millions !
A brazilian
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, March 06, 2007
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6293333.stm

A brazilian, I also read genetic research that mention the same. If you go back a few centuries we have hundreds of thousands of ancestors. It is statistically impossible for anybody in Europe, South and North America to not have a drop of black blood. This mixture has been going on in small scale since before the Roman period and became very common this century. The problem is that you can tell if a person has a majority of ancestors in a certain continent or region. That is why racism does exist in Brazil and the world. There is a new revolution beginning in Historical research, genetics will change the way we see history and ourselves. This revolution began in the United States of America, so Americans are the ones destroying the idea of the "one drop of black blood rule".
...
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, March 06, 2007
Yes Andy Murphy,

The majority of Brazilians use the coup of 64 to point fingers at the United States. The reality is that Brazil placed the military in power in order to stop the Soviets.
...
written by Andy Murphy, March 06, 2007
TO:Ludwig Van Beethoven,

Thank you sir. You just confirmed what I have been suspecting over the years. If I may ask you, what is your forecast for Brazil in the Political,Economic and Social fronts in the next 4 years?. Would love to hear your honest opinion.

Thanks once again for replying to my post immediately.
LVB
written by A brazilian, March 06, 2007
This revolution began in the United States of America, so Americans are the ones destroying the idea of the "one drop of black blood rule".


Why do we see the exact opposite in here? They seem to be in the 19th century in terms of genetics, still employing racial myths for explaining "races".
LVB, "Many Scholars Believe That the One-Drop Rule is Stronger Than Ever"
written by A brazilian, March 06, 2007
http://backintyme.com/essay050301.htm

Wow, do you really think this people is leader in what concerns race?
...
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, March 06, 2007
A brazilian,

My understanding is that racism is created by the perception that people have of others and not of the reality. Racial purity does not exist in the way Hitler or other crazy person tried to defend. However, we can clearly see when somebody is different from us. In this case the three major groups that exist in Brazil and United States are: whites, mixed, blacks. We can identify visual differences in these groups even if we are similar genetically and none are pure. Culture also plays a big part in the way we see each other. In Brazil the lack of opportunities for blacks and mixed people is perceivable.

Why do we see the exact opposite in here? They seem to be in the 19th century in terms of genetics, still employing racial myths for explaining "races".



If any of the Americans in here defended the "One drop of blood rule" I missed the post, maybe you can find and show it. Like I said most of the genetic researches are done in the United States.
LVB
written by A brazilian, March 06, 2007
My understanding is that racism is created by the perception that people have of others and not of the reality.


If it's so then Brazil has no racism. Nobody comments others "ancestry" or if the person has too many "african features". Morenos are perceived as morenos, not blacks.

However, we can clearly see when somebody is different from us.


I disagree with this. You live in the US in that society this is made very clear, but here in Brazil we don't see people as different than us, it doesn't matter if the person is blonde or black. I had many friends and girlfriends from different "races" (as an american would inevitably label them) and I identified myself with them and not for a second I thought about how they looked.

The racial problem exists only in the mind of americans, nobody else. They aren't leading anything, they are way behind everyone else.

If any of the Americans in here defended the "One drop of blood rule" I missed the post, maybe you can find and show it. Like I said most of the genetic researches are done in the United States.


I have posted an earlier link about "one drop rule" being strong than ever. Not only that but the support for it and the racism from the many Mark Wells' articles and americans comments are evidences of it. They use "blacks and browns" for designating one group, and put this number in the house of 50% or more with the use of the "one drop rule". Without it it's impossible for Brazil to have 50% of "blacks and browns", since most people won't identify with it.

If you are really interested in seeing the rule in action then I invite to read through the last five Mark Wells articles and the comments after it.

Your "genetic research" claim is unbacked and even if it's true it doesn't prove anything.
Mr. Murphy
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, March 06, 2007
If I may ask you, what is your forecast for Brazil in the Political,Economic and Social fronts in the next 4 years?


Political - Lula is going to have a government more corrupt than his first term and nobody is going to do anything. This will happen because no political party in Brazil can claim to be ethical, they are all involved in the corruption with PT. We saw this happening in the last term, PSDB, PFL, PMDB, PDT and others could not point the finger at Lula since they were all getting money from the "mensalao" (bribes in congress)

Economic - Brazil may see a major recession if the international markets fall, a crisis in Asia or the US (Last week was very scary for Brazil). Brazil grew 2.7% a year in the last 12 years, the international markets were perfectly well during this period, and can you imagine if they are bad in 2007, 2008 and 2009? The bottom line is: Brazil may grow in the next 4 years, but it will certainly under perform if compared to other developing nations. It will keep underperforming until Brazil completes the reforms necessary to build a concrete base for long term growth. I would look at Chile if investing in Latin America.

Social - The middle class will suffer more with the high taxes applied by the government, the Rich will accumulate more wealth and the poor will receive money that the middle class paid in taxes. In Brazil it is always the middle class that will pay the bill, in the next 4 years it will be worst.
A brazilian
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, March 06, 2007
I do not believe the link you provided would confirm anything you said so far. And genius the link you provided is not a genetic research. You do have a big problem interpreting stuff. Nobody in here denied that the United States has no racism; you are the one constantly denying racism. The United States did have a big racism problem in the past and still has racism, but they already started doing something. We in Brazil do not even recognize groups and their unique cultures, absurd and anti-democratic.

Quote from the author (Frank W. Sweet) of your link:
This essay defined the one-drop rule as hypodescent taken to absurd conclusion. It surveyed the writings of about two-dozen scholars to reveal a clear academic consensus that the one-drop rule is alive and well. It presented several examples of recent cases to show that the one-drop rule is routinely rejected, as well as other examples showing that it is equally often enforced. It explained that moral positioning and subconscious convictions make unsubstantiated assertions suspect. Finally, it examined census data on how interracial parents label their children to conclude that the one-drop rule may possibly become less fashionable, although advocating it will continue to be profitable.
Quote from A brazilian:

If it's so then Brazil has no racism. Nobody comments others "ancestry" or if the person has too many "african features". Morenos are perceived as morenos, not blacks.


You know this is not true, you have no ethical standard. I never heard the term 'moreno' applied to black people in Brazil. We definitely lived in different realities in Brazil. Inside families, country clubs, private schools people always discriminated against browns and blacks. Maybe you never heard since you are mixed, lucky for you.
Mr. Arthur Butler
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, March 06, 2007
Okay with all that being said. Blacks still shouldn't react the way they did because what your are saying is the truth. But I hope that all that read this comment understand that blackness in America has more to do with culture than how much black blood is flowing through your veins.


What can Brazilian's learn from African American's. Fight for protection under the law against the subtle and unspoken forms of discrimination for all, these forms of discrimination is just as bad if not worse than the overt.


Thank you Mr. Arthur Butler, I agree with you. I believe that A brazilian will not like your post.
LVB
written by A brazilian, March 06, 2007
I do not believe the link you provided would confirm anything you said so far. And genius the link you provided is not a genetic research.


As I said earlier, "genetic research" tells nothing about the US and the american culture. According to you:

This revolution began in the United States of America, so Americans are the ones destroying the idea of the "one drop of black blood rule".


The link proves this is not true. They aren't destroying it, they are, in fact, increasing it. They are going in the opposite way of science.

You do have a big problem interpreting stuff.


I have just demonstrated you are the one with problems.

We in Brazil do not even recognize groups and their unique cultures, absurd and anti-democratic.


We are all brazilians and we have one culture.


Brazilian:
If it's so then Brazil has no racism. Nobody comments others "ancestry" or if the person has too many "african features". Morenos are perceived as morenos, not blacks.

LVB:
You know this is not true, you have no ethical standard. I never heard the term 'moreno' applied to black people in Brazil. We definitely lived in different realities in Brazil. Inside families, country clubs, private schools people always discriminated against browns and blacks. Maybe you never heard since you are mixed, lucky for you.


What I said is entirely true and any brazilian can testify. Not for a second the ancestry of someone is put into question, it's more a matter of how the person looks. I studied in private schools and there was no discrimination because someone was visibly black, and, in many cases, the blacks would have many non-black friends and girl- or boyfriends.

And as commented earlier the term "mixed" is racist. If you believe in "mixed" then, logically, you also believe in "pure race". If you do believe in racial purity, then all your argumentation is based in fables from the 19th century. If that's true then you are no different than KKK members.
...
written by charles darwin, March 06, 2007
Mexico is correctly listed under "North America" because it is in North America, even though it is a Latin American country.
...
written by Blaacky, March 06, 2007
To say thaT THE USA is the only country that had racial problems is absurd. England has had it, and still does. Until recently Black tourists were frowned upon in Australia. All the scaninavian countries have it. Here in Brasil, blacks do not have equal opportunities, although they seem to be accepted socially. In the USA there are many black millionaires and CEO's of large companies. Where are they in Brasil? Take your head out of the sand. and don't believe everything you read.
...
written by Andy Murphy, March 06, 2007
To Blaacky

In the USA there are many black millionaires and CEO's of large companies. Where are they in Brasil


It is a very nice question you asked. I asked the same 25 years ago,when I had the opportunity to visit some of your finest state owned companies and coul not find a single Afro-Brazilian executive. I have met some smart Afro-Brazilian engineers,but they could not go up the corporate ladder,because of their skin color.

The difference between Brazil and U.S. is that the former closes its eyes on any problem and says "tudo bem" and the latter recognizes that there is a problem and tries to solve it.
...
written by Andy Murphy, March 06, 2007
TO: Mr.Van Beethoven

Thank you very much for answering my question regarding Brazil during the next 4 years. I do appreciate your views. BtW, you should participate more often in this forum.

Thank you once again.
...
written by A brazilian, March 06, 2007
It is a very nice question you asked. I asked the same 25 years ago,when I had the opportunity to visit some of your finest state owned companies and coul not find a single Afro-Brazilian executive. I have met some smart Afro-Brazilian engineers,but they could not go up the corporate ladder,because of their skin color.

The difference between Brazil and U.S. is that the former closes its eyes on any problem and says "tudo bem" and the latter recognizes that there is a problem and tries to solve it.


Without any specific data this equals wishful thinking.
...
written by A brazilian, March 06, 2007
In the USA there are many black millionaires and CEO's of large companies. Where are they in Brasil? Take your head out of the sand. and don't believe everything you read.


Everywhere.
garbage in garbage out
written by Joseph, March 06, 2007
This article was impressive only on how it played to people's desire to see the USA as a non-caring and non-international crazed country, There are certain elements like that...as there are in every country but most people are too busy living their lives to give a damn where Bolivia or Brazil is located....could anyone here say without thinking hard where all other countries are located in the world? Does anyone care? Does it impact their lives? How about even where Montana in the US located? Of course not, politics and knowledge are always local...and international knowledge is always of a highly limited nature (even in Europe John..or is that ESPECIALLY in Europe). The whole race thingy was a cheap gimick.....and I thought you said that you looked at outdates sites...does that mean you basically are being polemical over nothing?
...
written by A brazilian, March 06, 2007
could anyone here say without thinking hard where all other countries are located in the world?


Anybody that attended to elementary school can tell at least where the continents are and to which continent a country belongs to. And I think any non-retarded individual can tell what country he is now (about the "Bolivia" thing).
...
written by bo, March 06, 2007
...
written by A brazilian, 2007-03-06 14:32:15

In the USA there are many black millionaires and CEO's of large companies. Where are they in Brasil? Take your head out of the sand. and don't believe everything you read.



Everywhere.



Name 10.
...
written by A brazilian, March 06, 2007
In the USA there are many black millionaires and CEO's of large companies. Where are they in Brasil? Take your head out of the sand. and don't believe everything you read.

Everywhere.

Name 10.


The obligation of proving belongs to the accuser. My affirmation was just as valid as his, since he shows no evidence whatsoever I think we are even.
Once again, you're full of s**t!
written by bo, March 06, 2007
You want me to name 10 black American CEO's, or black americans worth hundreds of millions or billions of dollars???


I can name at least 50 at the drop of a hat!


Name 10 black CEO's of brazilian companies.....you said they were "everywhere". I don't see them!
And for someone to have the audicity...
written by bo, March 06, 2007
to make the statement that I and others that have my same beliefs "lie". You are a f**king criminal Baghdad Bob. You should be ashamed of yourself. You are a shame to brazil!
...
written by A brazilian, March 06, 2007
I can name at least 50 at the drop of a hat!


You are comical, what does it prove?

Name 10 black CEO's of brazilian companies.....you said they were "everywhere". I don't see them!


Who should prove it is the guy that claimed Brazil didn't have them.
Abe
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, March 06, 2007
Abe, do not be ridiculous ,you have to prove what you said. You are just like 99% of brazilians, you ask people for proof of everything, we show it and than you always say its false or wrong. When somebody asks you for the same you say the rule does not apply to you. Your ignorance just amazes me. Even for brazilian levels, you have your own category.
To: Andy Murphy
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, March 06, 2007
It is a pleasure to discuss with people that have knowledge and understand the difficulties we face in Brazil. Thank you, Mr. Murphy.
...
written by A brazilian, March 06, 2007
Abe, do not be ridiculous ,you have to prove what you said.


Why do people make ridiculous claims about Brazil and don't need to prove anything? I am just doing the same.

Your ignorance just amazes me.


Ad hominem.

Try again.
...
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, March 06, 2007
Do you even know what Ad hominem means? I will give you a tip, my comment was not an argument. I made a statement.
Can't name 10
written by GTY, March 07, 2007
Because there are not 10, probably can't name 2 who are not football players. As always, Abe pulling it out of his as...the epipitimy of a Brazilian moron.
...
written by A brazilian, March 07, 2007
I interpreted as being related to the argument made previously about CEOs, that I wrote "Everywhere" right after. Maybe it was too fast for you to catch.
GTY, the redneck
written by A brazilian, March 07, 2007
Are you still here? Go screw your cousin.
A bestado
written by Ric, March 07, 2007
You continue to amaze.
...
written by Andy Murphy, March 07, 2007
A Brazilian

Are you still here? Go screw your cousin.


Please do mind your manners
...
written by Andy Murphy, March 07, 2007
I said please mind your manners
The Redneck
written by GTY, March 07, 2007
Last time I was in Brazil I probably screwed your mother.
...
written by Andy Murphy, March 07, 2007
GTY

Please mind your manners too.You dont have to stoop to his level. He has been insulting people calling them idiots and other ugly names. I told him in one of my posts that "Que vem do baixo não me atinge". This guy seems to be totally illogical and live in an eternal state of self denial.
Heil Bush... Mein Fuhrer!
written by Costinha, March 07, 2007
the most stupid president in the world.
...
written by Andy Murphy, March 07, 2007
Costinha

What does your comment do with the main issue under discussion?
...
written by decy, March 07, 2007
Abe, I'd still like to see you name 10 black CEOs in brazil.
Unfortunately for you we CAN actually find and name 10 or more prominent black CEOs in the states.
It's sad your advertising companys in Brazil tend to ban any sort of advertising promoting anything but white faces on products.
hint hint.
There are no Black CEOs in Brazil, get your head out of your ass dude and admit it's an undeniably racist.
...
written by bo, March 07, 2007
Abe
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, 2007-03-06 18:02:40

Abe, do not be ridiculous ,you have to prove what you said. You are just like 99% of brazilians, you ask people for proof of everything, we show it and than you always say its false or wrong. When somebody asks you for the same you say the rule does not apply to you. Your ignorance just amazes me. Even for brazilian levels, you have your own category.




B-I-N-G-O!


That is Baghdad Bob's M.O. to a tee!
...
written by Andy Murphy, March 07, 2007
Mr.Ludwig Van Beethoven

Which state in Brazil are you from? Let me guess: from PR?
Mr. Murphy
written by Ludwig Van Beethoven, March 07, 2007
No, I am from Sao Paulo. Parana is a beautiful state, have you been there?


...
written by Andy Murphy, March 07, 2007
Mr.Ludwig Van Beethoven

Thanks once again. Yes, I have been to PR and the interior of SP too. I did not particularly like the capital of SP. The interior of SP and PR have lots of things in common and I loved to interact with the people there. Curitiba,Maringa and Londrina are beautiful. One thing I loved about people from PR is that they are "Pacific,but not submissive" ( I am quoting your ex minister of FAB, Brig. Moreira Franco,who said this about the Brazilian people in general). BTW, I should not compliment just the Paulistas and Paranaenses. I have visited lots of your states and found that 98 % of the qualified professionals to be serious, patriotic and are willing to discuss the issues and solve the problems.However, after 1985, the things changed and (of course you know why!).In my opinion, the problems of Brazil are not all that insurmountable. It just takes political will power. (Please do refer to your answer to my question about the scenario for Brazil for the next 4 years-You said it all). It requires open minded people like you,Ric and my other great Brazilian friends to come out with a long term strategy for Brazil to grow. That is the reason why I requested you to continue participating in this forum.

...
written by A brazilian, March 07, 2007
That is the reason why I requested you to continue participating in this forum.


Soon you two will be married. Hehehe. Yes, I would like to see the types of LVB "to come up with a long term strategy", hahahaha.
...
written by Tom Dooley, March 08, 2007
A Brazilian

I have been reading the exchange of messages between you and many other members in this forum. You have a clear mind and very logical. I am really impressed with the sharpness o your mind. You are a big asset to your country and my sincere congratulations for standing up against the entire world.

I am just curious. Did you try to come to our country as a wet back or swimming across the Gulf of Mexico. If you did not succeed in your previous attempts,it is time you try again. Our country needs people like you with lucid mind and with great knowledge of the World.Welcome to U.S. Of A
Tom Dooley
written by A brazilian, March 08, 2007
Try again. This one didn't work.
...
written by bo, March 08, 2007
written by A brazilian, 2007-03-07 21:34:51

Try again. This one didn't work.



I see E Harmony is over at your place. Be careful, you can catch something when those things "don't work". smilies/shocked.gif
...
written by Tom Dooley, March 08, 2007
A Brazilian

How can conquer you? Please enlighten me.You are such a darling.If you have any problem of coming to our country,please do not hesitate to ask my help. If you cant make it, I would be delighted to visit you. BTW, how is the weather down there?
Tom Dooley in Brokeback Mountain
written by A brazilian, March 08, 2007
This one didn't work either, and sounded kind of gay. I am not interested in meeting men.
...
written by Tom Dooley, March 08, 2007
A Brazilan

What is wrong in being a gay?. Do you have any objections?. Now, my luv, I am very hurt.
The "Brazilian"
written by CalSur, March 08, 2007
He has proven himself to be a racist and a homophobe...and he is quick to call all Americans Rednecks? What is the Brazilian equivellent of the KKK??
CalSur
written by Paulistano, March 08, 2007
Here in Sampa.... Skinheads are called "Carecas" But Carecas do not like A brazilian, he is mixed.... os carecas nao gostam de moreninho...

The "Carecas do ABC" (ABC region skinheads, in Portuguese) is a skinhead group based on the region of ABC, in the metropolitan area of São Paulo. The ABC region is formed by the industrial cities of Santo André, São Bernardo do Campo and São Caetano do Sul.
The group is accused of the murder of a homossexual at São Paulo's Downtown, in the year 2003.

Wikipedia.org
BRAZIL THE RACIAL DEMOCRACY
written by Paulistano, March 08, 2007
Look at this site of the University of Tel Aviv in Israel:

http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2000-1/brazil.htm
University of Tel Aviv
written by Paulistano, March 08, 2007
CARECAS
written by Ric, March 08, 2007
If they can´t do anything for A brazilian, call in the TFP.
Paulistano
written by A brazilian, March 08, 2007
So you build your life based on someone else's belief. What does it tell about you? Carecas, black activists, and any form of racism is the same thing to me, i.e., trash.
Brazil is a racial democracy
written by A brazilian, March 08, 2007
Paulistano, the link you posted is laughable. First they don't even get the number of the population right, it's currently over 190 million.

Second, have you taken a look at the numbers of the allegedly groups in there? They are around 100 - 300 or even less for each, that in a country with 190 million! Note that even among the "carecas" they won't discriminate someone based on ancestry like a neo-nazi in the US would, this doesn't make it good but it gives a notion to the readers of what this is about.

Brazil is the least racist country in the world, and by reading the crap we see here so often I am learning to value it everytime more.
In Brasil we never had...
written by Costinha, March 08, 2007
"For Whites Only" signs, non-whites public restrooms, back of the bus for negores...and the like!

That's exclusive an american thing!
...
written by fburns, March 08, 2007
Right, there is not currently nor has there ever been any "racial friction" in Brazil. Everyone just ignores the fact that discrimation here is de facto rather than explicit.
In Brazil Costa Never Saw
written by Ric, March 09, 2007
..back of the bus for negores. But I have seen back of the truck for Nelores. And they are sacred to many. I think of your posts every time a truck loaded with them rolls thru the cancela.
Ric... Seriouly!
written by Costinha, March 14, 2007
How many times do I have to flush you down the toilet?
Quit Lying
written by Ric, March 15, 2007
Can´t tell me you have a flush toilet. Maybe I am not understanding you, your pronunciation may be so bad that Third sounds like Terd.

Just don´t name your dog Thor.

Hi, I´m Costa. I live at 1333 E. 33rd Street. This is my dog, Thor. His mother was a beach. His fodder was a Fila.
Hehehehe....Rickie the dyslexic retard....hehehe
written by Costinha, March 16, 2007
THERE ARE FUNGUS GROWING BETWEEN YOUR EARS…
FUNGI
written by Ric, March 16, 2007
Might be more accurate but thanks for the tip, how did you know, are you clairvoyant? And how did you know I was cixelsyd and retarded? What has that extra chromosone done for you? And if you´re so smart, why ain´t you rich? I´m going to the states soon, can I pick you up a Porta Potty?
Ouch...
written by Costinha, March 16, 2007
Rickie Prickie.... You should never drink on an empty head!

Howya doin, Costa?
written by Ric, March 17, 2007
Urine a position to know, so thanx for the tip.
UNITED STATES THE RACIAL DEMOCRACY
written by Paulistana, March 21, 2007
Look at this site of the University of Tel Aviv in Israel:


http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2000-1/usa.htm
truelife
written by zen, January 26, 2009
Hwo exacly was in the death squad that murderd all the homeless children in brazil? Be cuz met this guy "ed suarez" that bragged about how his uncle was in charge of that in humane event. and he is connected with the c,I,a he say's.
retain doubt....liberal probably wrote the article above
written by FreemonSandlewould, February 27, 2009
I have spent quite alot of time in Brazil. They do not like Bush yes but they will be a 3rd rate economic power until they fix this.

And in regards race: Brazilian blacks are a whole lot more classy than American blacks....at least in the south of the country. My wife is 1/2 black brazilian. All well and good but I would NEVER consider marrying an american black women. It may sound unkind but its just the truth.

Write comment

security code
Write the displayed characters


busy
 
Joomla 1.5 Templates by Joomlashack