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Will Brazil and Portugal Ever Agree on a Common Language? PDF Print E-mail
2007 - September 2007
Written by Deonísio da Silva   
Thursday, 06 September 2007 16:48

Portuguese dictionary Brazil and Portugal have signed a few orthographic (spelling) reform agreements in the past, but could never come to an understanding. Portugal enforces the 1943 agreement. Brazil goes by the one signed in 1945. If all Lusophone countries sign the new agreement now in gestation, it will be in effect in 2009.

The idea behind the proposal to again update the Portuguese language is unifying spelling rules in Brazil, Portugal and Lusophone countries Angola, Mozambique, São Tomé & Príncipe, Cabo Verde and Guinea-Bissau. There are other countries in the world, though, where Portuguese is one of the official languages.

In a monkey-like imitation of Americans who love quantifying everything, calculations have already been published stating that the new grammar will change 1.6% of the Luso vocabulary and 0.5% of the Brazilian vocabulary. Nobody knows who supports these changes.

As we can see, political independence alone can't resolve certain subtle complexities of languages. Maybe Hegel ("the Lord is also within you"), who attended seminary with the poet Holderlin ("man is God when he dreams and a pauper when he thinks"), or maybe Freud ("in the beginning there was no word, it was all action") could explain the reason why we only refer to two vocabularies, Brazilian and Luso.

What about the Portuguese-speaking African nations, where do they come in? I am glad that the Camões Prize in Literature has awarded writers from Portugal, Brazil and the Lusophone African nations alternatively.

Pontifices Maximi
 
The agreement is controversial and has been stirring criticism. Much of it is poorly grounded, because we are not talking about prohibiting spoken language variations but about unifying the written language such as in the case of Arab language, which is spoken differently in 15 countries but still is written the same way by all of them.

A good Portuguese dictionary has some 200 thousand palavras (words) these days. Actually, the right word here is not palavra, but verbete or entrada (entry).

Let me give you a small example. The Houaiss Portuguese Language Dictionary states in its electronic version (2.0, revised) that it contains 228,500 verbetes with 380,000 meanings. The editing team for the project that bears the name of its founder Antônio Houaiss are two people - Mauro Salles Villar and Francisco Mello Franco.

There are some etymological errors such as in urucubaca (persistent misfortune), an entry that existed in Portuguese way before the Spanish influenza epidemic, as I have demonstrated in another article.

Together with its congeners Aurélio and Michaelis, Houaiss is insufficient for fiction writers but a comprehensive tool for any other consultees.

In Brazil, unfortunately, many short story writers, novelists and poets, even the best known among them, are still not well explored in schools, universities and academies. The reason is very simple: first you have to submit the author's death certificate, a requirement these authors can't meet, of course.

Let me give you the example of Clarice Lispector. When I was a young college teacher I found it very difficult to bring Clarice's books to my classroom and into bibliographies. Many of the people who make money with her work today - at the very least scholarship money or as advisors for dissertations about her work - looked down on her books while the writer was alive - and actually needing the attention that she of course deserved.

A simple writers roundtable would be enough to dilute certain pranks played by illustrious professors who insist that we don't need to study Portuguese grammar because the role of language is merely to communicate.

People who think like that should resign their positions in favor of Chacrinha* or someone like him. At least the time spent in the classroom would never be boring. So many college kids give up during their very first semester exactly because of difficulties to read, write, think or debate in the Portuguese language!

To believe these Pontifices Maximi, if you can speak or write in a way that everyone understands, everything is fine. You don't need to study so much. We don't need the butt-chair-hour ratio without which nothing can be well learned.

And these idiots, resting on diplomas granted by their peers who think the same way, go about categorically stating that we don't need to read and even less to study the founding texts of our Portuguese language. This situation could well be described by the scientific term fim da picada (dreadful, the last straw)

The Way We Are

Known by their good mood, Brazilians have forever used a curious and humble epithet for dictionaries which is, however, unfair to the actual beast: pai-dos-burros (father of all donkeys, meaning father of all idiots).

If you know anything about riding, you know by experience that donkeys are highly intelligent. If you want stupidity, consider horses: when spurred, a horse goes where it is not supposed to go and make life miserable for the horseman. Donkeys, on the other hand, empacam - they know when to balk - for example, at the edge of a swamp.

The verb empacar comes from alpaca in the Quechuan language, meaning a red-skinned animal smaller than the llama. When the alpaca doesn't want to continue walking, it lies down on the ground and the only way to move it is to drag it away, because there is no way it will get up.

Pai-dos-burros is an expression of controversial origins. It could be a reference to the occupation of the parents of Aurélio, Brazilian lexicographer and philologist Aurélio Buarque de Holanda Ferreira, a true man of letters, translator and essayist, who was a member of the Brazilian Academy of Letters. Today the copyrights of the Aurélio dictionary belong to Grupo Positivo.

Aurélio's father built wagons and carriages which were very comfortable not only for the users who rode on their seats, but also for the donkeys who pulled them. In those times we already had the well-known expression "Não tenho palavras para agradecer" (I can't find the words to express my gratitude) and people used it to praise the perfection of those carriages.

Aurélio did find the words and he actually wrote a little textbook of praise words which was his very first dictionary. In that book his father's customers could find the appropriate words to endorse his father's craftsmanship.

And slowly the son of the builder began to help his father less and less with that very concrete means of transportation and started transporting words, becoming the author of the most translated Brazilian dictionary in the world (some eighty languages).

One of the researchers who recorded this version was Diógenes Praxedes (Jornal de Brasília, DF, 12/8/2001 edition). Almanaque Santo Antônio 2003 (St. Anthony's Almanac) endorses the same version and uses the same newspaper as a reference.

The agreement has been technically in effect since January 1st, 2006, following a decision made by the Chiefs of State of all Lusophone nations in a meeting held in São Tomé & Principe and attended by President Lula.

This is a lot like Brazil. The agreement is enforceable, but will only be for real in 2009. Maybe.

* Chacrinha - notorious and deceased variety show host in Brazil who once said that communication was everything ("if you can't communicate, you're screwed")

Deonísio da Silva is a Brazilian journalist. This article appeared originally at Observatório da Imprensa.

Translated by Tereza Braga. Braga is a freelance Portuguese translator and interpreter based in Dallas. She is a certified member of the American Translators Association. Contact: terezab@sbcglobal.net.



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Comments (68)Add Comment
Cervantes
written by Shelly, September 07, 2007
"Let me give you the example of Clarice Lispector. When I was a young college teacher I found it very difficult to bring Clarice's books to my classroom and into bibliographies. Many of the people who make money with her work today - at the very least scholarship money or as advisors for dissertations about her work - looked down on her books while the writer was alive - and actually needing the attention that she of course deserved".

This is no different from Cervantes, while he was alive, he was "poor" and his novels weren't recognized as great master pieces. This has to do with the fact that Lope was around and theater was very popular in Spain.


Nonsense
written by Luso, September 07, 2007
Actually I don't understand why all this fuss about getting this ortographic agreement done...for me, as for the majority of portuguese people, Portuguese is a language from portugal, from europe, and this is the one that is evolving for about 1000 years, and should be the one leading the others, not the contrary. For instances, why should we in portugal use braziliann expressions taken from the brazilian aboriginal people? that's absurd. Actually, portuguese from portugal is the true portuguese, and all the other variations spoken int the former colonies are just like dialects, and like any other dialect, they should follow the lead of the european portuguese, the true and "clear" portuguese.
The fuss
written by Cuba Libre, September 07, 2007
Portuguese maybe from Portugal but there are more people in Brazil speaking Portuguese. They naturally have a bigger say. The same is true of English and America. I'll never stop bitching about American spelling and the like but the truth is I'm never going to able to stop that many people having an effect on the language. England and Portugal were once very powerful nations and because of this we could dictate how people spoke. Now, arguably, America and Brazil are the more powerful nations and it's their turn to dictate how we apeak. We may not like it but we have to live with it. By all means continue to argue about spelling and grammar but realise that such arogance as displayed above will not 'make friends and influence people'.
European Portugese and Brazilian Portugese might as well be foreign languages
written by Yowser, September 07, 2007
European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese might as well be foreign languages. They don't understand each other when they speak "portuguese" to each other, they laugh at each others' verbal expressions, they cannot readily communicate and are generally confused over the "same" language. Good luck!
not domination
written by adrianerik, September 07, 2007
as far as english is concerned i really don't think that it's a matter of domination. American writers simply felt that in order to write about America there was a need to use words and terms and imagery that did not exist in European english. Our english 'grew' out of our reality in America and not of the class-based and hierarchial english of Europe. Isn't that how all languge eventually transforms itself. Portuguese, after all, is simply 'bad' Vulgate latin -- the latin spoken by the soldiers and merchants of the Roman Empire who were far from the center of 'proper' latin. This 'bad' latin was eventually called 'Roman' latin or Romance latin. In France, there were actually several different types of french - bad 'gallic' latin. But the french of Paris dominated over the other gallic languages. All of these 'bad' romance languages (italian, spanish, portuguese, french, etc) continually changed until the printing press was invented and there was a need to codify and lock i the languages.But people simply codified 'bad' versions of latin grammar, bad grammr, which today, people want to lift up as something to be worshipped.

Shakespeare was ridiculed because he wrote in the 'low' but expressive english of the people rather than the restrictive english of the elite. However, there would be no way for european english to adequately express such american stories as CAT ON A HOT TIN ROOF or DEATH OF A SALESMAN, or HURRY SUNDOWN or COLOR PURPLE or JITNEY of any of the works of black writers like Toni Morrison or Zora Neale Hurston.

I read some of the old portuguese authors and i don't think that any of them could express Bahia as did Jorge Amado using the portuguese of bahia.
...
written by aes, September 07, 2007
Brazil would do well to recognize that it speaks Brazilian or Brazilian Portguguese, a language extant from Portuguese but derived from Portugues, rather than speaking Portuguese. It is my understanding that it is more difficult for a Brazilian to understand Portuguese Portuguese than it is for an American to understanding English English. Perhaps though it is as weird for a Brazilian to conceive that they do not speak Portuguese Portuguese as it is for an American to conceive that they do not speak English English. I wonder if the American has as much trouble in England as the Brazilian does in Portugual.
...
written by Bola Preta, September 07, 2007
This notion of having an agreement over language is absurd. It is very symbolic of academic elitist culture where academies of letters, e.g., Academia Brasileira de Letras (what an absurd institution!!), dictate to the rest of us what is considered proper and erudite. Kudos to the Americans for not having such a ridiculous institution. Also kudos to them for not signing ridiculous agreements on language with the British. What is the point of having agreements when 99% of the Brazilian people don't even know how to conjugate verbs in our obscure language? Even the educated elites do not know proper Portuguese since the Academies and their periodic revisions have managed to make Portuguese grammar more complicated than atomic physics. smilies/angry.gif
...
written by João da Silva, September 07, 2007
For instances, why should we in portugal use braziliann expressions taken from the brazilian aboriginal people? that's absurd.


No "aborginal (sic) Brasilians" asked you to use the Brasilian expressions and you dont have to,even if they did. You can go on practising your upper class Portuguese.Forget that there are 200 Million people speak "Aborginal Portuguese".Many of these "Aborgines" also speak other languages and they dont give a s**t about the "Pure Portuguese".

btw, do you guys still continue refering to the Computer Mouse, as "RATO"? An example of pure Portuguese,I must confess smilies/grin.gif

Sincerely yours

An Aborgine from Brasil
AES
written by João da Silva, September 07, 2007
I wonder if the American has as much trouble in England as the Brazilian does in Portugual.


I have never been to Portugal but my wife has been there two times. She did have problems in communicating and many times has to resort to,guess what? ENGLISH smilies/grin.gif
Cuba Libre
written by João da Silva, September 07, 2007
By all means continue to argue about spelling and grammar but realise that such arogance as displayed above will not 'make friends and influence people'.


You must be a fan of Dale Carnegie smilies/grin.gif But well said and my kudos.
...
written by The Man, September 07, 2007
Brazilian Portuguese is my second language (English is my first). I have a hell of a time understanding Portuguese spoken in Portugal.
...
written by conceicao, September 07, 2007
Aside from almost having Theresa Heinz Kerry as U.S. first lady, my only experience with any of this is attending a football match in the U.S. between two Brasilian teams officiated by a Portuguese referee. Upon being apprised of the nationality of the referee, the Brasilians in the crowd quickly rose to their feet and politely serenaded him with a continuing repeating chant of "Bicho. Bicho. Bicho. Galeeeeeeego." I assume that this was Brasilian Portuguese.
"There are other countries in the world, though, where Portuguese is one of the official languages."
written by ch.c., September 07, 2007
Could anyone name others countries except the ones mentioned ?
Thanks-
Reply to "Could anyone name others countries except the ones mentioned? "
written by Loki, September 07, 2007
East Timor
Ch.C
written by João da Silva, September 07, 2007
Could anyone name others countries except the ones mentioned ?
Thanks-


Since you politely requested and thanked in advance,will name four : Cape Verde (Cabo Verde), Macau,Mozambique and Guinea-Bissau.

Now it is your turn to find out how there economies are doing and give us a complete report smilies/grin.gif
The Man
written by João da Silva, September 08, 2007
I have a hell of a time understanding Portuguese spoken in Portugal.


Dont waste time trying to understand it. Not worth the efforts smilies/grin.gif
Conceição
written by João da Silva, September 08, 2007
Upon being apprised of the nationality of the referee, the Brasilians in the crowd quickly rose to their feet and politely serenaded him with a continuing repeating chant of "Bicho. Bicho. Bicho. Galeeeeeeego."


The Brasilians were calling the Portuguese referee a "Blonde Fag" smilies/angry.gif Impolite, I must admit
GOA
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007
The official language of Goa is Konkami, but I think Portuguese is also used...along with English, Hindi and Marathi.
...
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007
European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese might as well be foreign languages. They don't understand each other when they speak "portuguese" to each other, they laugh at each others' verbal expressions, they cannot readily communicate and are generally confused over the "same" language. Good luck!

I want to see you in Wales or Scotland...I am used to it, but most Americans have a hard time over there.
Shelly
written by João da Silva, September 08, 2007
The official language of Goa is Konkami, but I think Portuguese is also used...along with English, Hindi and Marathi.


No Shelly. It WAS the official language of Goa until the beginning of the 1970´s. When our velho caudilho Salazar refused to give independence to their colonial territories in the sub continent, the Indians decided to liberate them by force. Portuguese ceased to be the official language of Goa since then.

I am just shooting off the history from my memory.Try to google about the war between Portugal and India. You may come out with some new data.
eventually redefined themselves into an independent nation.
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007
Or you could go to York, Birmingham, Merseside...not far but accents are a hard to understand...
Also to consider...Part1
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007
ENGLISH IN COLONIAL AMERICA.
http://www.languagehat.com/archives/002847.php

While doing some research, I ran across an interesting article, Paul K. Longmore's “Good English without Idiom or Tone”: The Colonial Origins of American Speech (pdf of Journal of Interdisciplinary History, xxxvii:4 (Spring, 2007), 513–542; there doesn't seem to be a Google cache available):

This study offers not a linguistic analysis but a historical interpretation of Early American English that draws on historical linguistics and sociolinguistics, as well as Early American historiography and scholarship about nationalism. It examines the interplay between modes of speech and demographical, geographical, social, and political history. It explains the interaction of linguistic and historical processes in terms of the experience of these societies as settler colonies that eventually redefined themselves into an independent nation. The emergence of American varieties of English was first recognized two generations before the Revolution...

Some excerpts follow:

When read in light of sociolinguistic research, historical linguistic studies suggest that in Britain’s North American colonies, the English language developed along lines characteristic of immigrant societies, particularly overseas settler colonies. The full array of British dialects mingled to form distinctly American varieties of English. Several regional koines probably evolved during the colonial era. The consensus from eighteenth-century observers to modern linguists is that whereas deep, geographically based, dialect differences marked early modern British speech, colonial English was significantly less differentiated. In Britain as a whole and even in England, dialects diverged so widely that speech from one county to another was often difficult to comprehend, but the colonies’ regional varieties were mutually intelligible. Struck by this contrast, eighteenth-century observers described colonial speech as virtually dialect-free...

In several regions colonized during the seventeenth century—New England, the mid-Atlantic, and the Chesapeake—colonial English speech appears to have been initially diffuse. Variation and diversity continued throughout the eighteenth century, particularly within isolated local speech communities, as well as within individual speech styles and style shifting. Nonetheless, several generations of American-born Anglophone colonials dwelling in the regions that would become the core of the new nation gradually selected or reallocated elements from England’s dialects as they unconsciously fashioned new North American varieties of English...
Part2
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007

From a linguistic standpoint, it is important that the founding generation was followed by two generations of American-born colonials but relatively few additional immigrants. Those three seventeenth-century generations began to produce a new variety of English that derived but diverged from the founders’ many native dialects...

Mid-Atlantic Anglophone colonials were, from the start, more mobile, more connected to commercial networks, and more involved with a demographically diverse population across a wider area. Those factors may have accelerated dialect leveling. In contrast, seventeenth-century Chesapeake colonials achieved population stability only after several generations. Lower birth rates and higher infant and child death rates, along with skewed sex ratios and the dependency of population growth on continued immigration, kept the ratio of American-born to immigrant speakers much lower there during the seventeenth century than in the northern regions. These demographical factors may have made Chesapeake English speech diffuse and unfocused for a longer time...

Because English speech marked social station, the general absence of upper-class Britons from transatlantic migration inhibited direct transplantation of elite social dialects. As a result, individuals in every colonial region and, more to the point, all social ranks employed speech forms that Britons of higher status thought vulgar. For example, many colonials pronounced cover as kivver, engine as ingine, yesterday as yisterday, yes as yis, and Sarah as Sary. In Britain, these pronunciations marked lower social status; in America, they became stylistic variants among individuals of every rank and region, not simply indicators of class. The inability of colonial speech to replicate the full range of idioms that registered the British social hierarchy was another form of leveling...

By the third quarter of the eighteenth century, many observers were describing this leveled colonial speech as well-established and well-known. In 1759, Franklin invoked as common knowledge that, although in England individuals’ geographical origins could be pinpointed by their speech, in North America they could not. A few years later, Eddis contrasted England’s extreme dialect differences with the comparative homogeneity of colonial speech: “In England, almost every county is distinguished by a peculiar dialect . . . but in Maryland and throughout the adjacent provinces, it is worthy of observation that a striking similarity of speech universally prevails[.]” Witherspoon made the identical point: “There is a greater difference in dialect between one county and another in Britain than there is between one state and another in America.” Cresswell, a Derbyshireman who traveled through the Chesapeake and the mid-Atlantic, reported, “No County or Colonial dialect is to be distinguished here, except it be the New Englanders, who have a sort of whining cadence that I cannot describe.”...

Speech accommodation theory offers a social-psychological explanation for colonials’ efforts to conform to a metropolitan standard: Speakers and writers tend to accommodate their speech toward prestige dialects. In a colonial context of dialect mixing, in which speakers unconsciously select linguistic elements from a variety of dialects, psychological motivations promoting convergence toward the most prestigious metropolitan standard dialect probably operated with even greater force than in other situations of dialect contact and mixing. Members of the North American British colonial elite and middling classes assiduously copied not just British, or even English, cultural forms; they specifically targeted southeastern English fashions, ideas, institutional models, and other cultural features. This pattern is typical of colonial elites, especially in the mature phase of colonies’ development. In the middle decades of the eighteenth century, elite and middling Anglophone colonials energetically schooled themselves as well as people lower down in the social hierarchy in speaking and writing “proper” English. [Footnote: Montgomery, “Was Colonial American English a Koine?” 231–232, reasonably concludes that style shifting—accommodating speech to the social situation and the rank of interlocutors—may partially account for observers’ descriptions of the correctness and purity of early American English speech. See also Cooley, “Emerging Standard,” 180–184. If Montgomery is correct, such style shifting may have reflected accommodation to the trend toward standard English. Dwight might have not been able to detect his students’ regional backgrounds by their speech because they were shifting to the standard expected of them at Yale College.]
Part3
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007
North American colonization generated more extensive dialect contact and mixing than ever occurred in early modern Britain. The necessities of migration and settlement, along with the imperatives and motivations inherent in empire-building, prompted Anglophone colonials to accommodate their various speech ways to one another. By the early eighteenth century, American varieties of English, extraterritorial immigrant koines, began to emerge in several regions. Meanwhile, the settlers’ status within the imperial system also shaped these mixed colonial varieties. In such societies, dominant groups are acutely aware of the cultural forms and standards of the imperial core. Particularly in the mature phase of social development, Anglophone colonials—most influentially those in the elite and middling ranks—consciously and unconsciously copied metropolitan Standard English. Both higher-status and upwardly mobile colonials used this “proper” and “true” English to mark their status within the colonial social hierarchy and elevate their individual and collective standing within the Empire. The regionally differentiated but comprehensible, American colonial language system helped prepare Anglophone colonials to receive the idea of American nationhood. Although British speech displayed a diversity of dialects that standardizing reformers and British nationalists had to combat, American Revolutionary nationalists did not need to impose a common “national” language. The dominant Anglophone members of the “nation” already effectively possessed one.
Joao
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007
Joao, I never said Portuguese was the official language. I said the official language is Konkami. Some people still, especially the older generation still speak Portuguese. They may not use it everyday, but they certainly understand it. My college, an Oceanographer, has been to Goa to do some research on the coral reefs and pollution last year, and he apparently told me that the older folks still speak Portuguese, but the numbers are decreasing. He wouldn't say that if it wasn't true. I took a look and here is some facts...

http://www.colonialvoyage.com/Planguage.html
http://www.colaco.net/1/port.htm
http://www.goa-travel-tourism.com/languages-of-goa/

Goa is a multi-lingual state, thanks to its chequered history of thousands of years, which has seen people of various regions, ethnic races and religions from India and abroad settling in Goa and influencing the local language. At present, Marathi and Konkani are the two major languages of Goa. Hindi, the national language of India, is well understood in Goa too.

The Portuguese Influence
In major towns, English is widely used in writing and conversation. Goa being a major tourist place offers a tourist-friendly medium of interaction through English. On the other hand, Portuguese, the language of the colonial rulers and the official language till 1961 before liberation, notwithstanding the official patronage and a compulsory medium of study, failed to make a dent in the mind of the majority of Goans.

It remained only the language of the elite but alienated the masses. Thus just after the departure of the Portuguese, the Portuguese language lost all its favour and usage. However, very few - particularly the older or pre-liberation generation - still use Portuguese.

Konkani and Marathi, much related, survived in Goa by secret studies at home, in temples and public places in villages. Both Konkani and Marathi are derived from Sanskrit, the mother of majority of Indian languages. These two languages use "Devnagari" (literally meaning the city of God) script like Sanskrit. Hindi is also written in Devnagari script while Roman script is used for English and Portuguese.



Here we go:

...
written by aes, September 08, 2007
The regionally differentiated but comprehensible, American colonial language system helped prepare Anglophone colonials to receive the idea of American nationhood.

The article is quite interesting. I liked Anglophone. Iberiaphone or Portuguese-o-phone?

There are places in the U.S., pockets in Appalachia, the deep woods of Georgia or Mississippi, or Louisiana that, unless you are a native, are difficult if not impossible to understand. Similarly there are places in New England, Maine in particular whose accents, regional dialect is so thick that it is nearly indicipherable. The speed with which New Yorkers speak leaves many visiting Ohioans agape. And if you are from the South, forget it. I once theorized that the reason the South lost the War was because it took so long to give the orders. Southerners are know for what is called a Southern drawl. They take there time in the South, the speech is unhurried, reflecting the general rhythm of the life in the South. Anyone not from New York is considered provincial. And if you are too slow in your comprehension or speech you will be run over, infamously, in a New York minute; often leaving Manhattan with a deed to a bridge or a genuine Rolex watch.
Shelly
written by João da Silva, September 08, 2007
Joao, I never said Portuguese was the official language. I said the official language is Konkami.


Shelly, I have been to India a couple of times. The Pintos,Souzas,Pereiras,etc; that I met did not understand a word in Portuguese (in spite of my good intentions). On the contrary,some had heavy British accent and others American . Then we got into a discussion about the Portuguese colonization in India and they were all uninanimous in saying that Goa could have been much better off, if the Portugueses had packed their bags and left India,along with the Brits!!

As for the official language of Goa,it is KONKANI and not KONKOMI.However, an old friend of mine Anne de Souza assured me that the educated people from Goa,these days ,recognize Hindi and English as the two official languages of India (though she could not speak Hindi,but yes Konkani, Malwani & Marati-not to forget English with a heavy British accent).

As for your friend, the oceanographer, I dont know if he is a Brazilian ,American or British. Since I have never been to Goa, I would rather skip making comments about Portugués being spoken there. In Bombay, the good people I met with Portuguese surnames could communicate to me only in English. They did not even understand the word "obrigado" smilies/grin.gif
Joao
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007
He is British!
and...
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007
If the Portugueses had packed their bags and left India,along with the Brits!! They like to complain about the Brits, but look how they live today...most are fleeing to England or anywhere else they can. I must say, while living in Sussex they seemed pretty happy about he opportunities, free education, free health care, free government housing, free government drugs for kids 0 to 16 years of age, and the list goes on my friend...The oceanographer is the head of the Scottish Institute for Ocean sciences...
oh this is funny!
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007
free government drugs for kids 0 to 16 years of age...

I found this out while my son got sick . My husband went to Boots, he presented the chemist with my little one's NHS card and prescription, she put the drugs/medicine on a bag and off he went. I was mortified because I thought he was stilling the drugs and tried to stop him in the middle of the store. He explained, while others looked at me puzzled, that medicine is free for every child, regardless of family income...

Shelly
written by João da Silva, September 08, 2007
If the Portugueses had packed their bags and left India,along with the Brits!! They like to complain about the Brits, but look how they live today...most are fleeing to England or anywhere else they can.


Shelly, the ones I met were very well off and did not want to flee to anywhere.Top class software professionals,trained in Silicon Valley. Have strong trade relationship with U.S.

Since I have never been to England, I would rather avoid making comments about their lives in Sussex,London,or other communities in good old England. I have met plenty of them in the U.S. of A and they seem to be well off too (there again in the engineering and medical fields)
Shelly...
written by me, September 08, 2007
Chuff, chuff! And this from a pedant!

"...he apparently told me that the older folks still speak Portuguese..."

Are you really not sure?
Joao
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007
This is what you said:f the Portugueses had packed their bags and left India,along with the Brits...

If you have a chance to visit London, you will see what I mean...ask them if they would like to go back to India (for the one's living here or in Britain). After the British Raj, the number of poor has increased and social conditions got worse.

http://www.arts.cornell.edu/poverty/Papers/Uphoff_poverty_and_development.pdf

"It represents progress for India to be known and respected now for its large middle class,
which is practically as large as the population of the United States. However, the number of
Indians who subsist below the poverty line, nearly 400 million in 1992 (World Bank, 2000), is
greater than India's total population was at independence"

Trust me, we have at least one family member that owns part of insurance company in India(he is an actuary he is a partner all over the world), the poor which is the majority, are fleeing the country. He goes there every 4 weeks and usually has to make sure that his company ships constantly supply of water and food stuff. Also, my father in-law used to be a flight planner for British Airways, he has been numerous times to India and he views are the same as mine. Every plane landing on Heathrow from Mumbai or other areas aren't just full of "visitors", but people seeking a better life in England. As I said, if you have a chance to go to London, you will understand...The Indian community works hard, the kids do well in school and I can assure you that life in the U.K. is better for them. All the Indians that I know over there are very greatful "and left India,along with the Brits..." isn't an attitude they seem to carry.
I am sure the people you know are top business people, but ask how much they pay their employees? Reason being that children as young as 10 work on diamond factories for peanuts, no wonder they are so successful. Social mobility is not easy in a cast driven society.
to me
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007
Chuff, chuff! And this from a pedant!
"...he apparently told me that the older folks still speak Portuguese..."
Are you really not sure?

So, this is what you are saying: everyone born before 1961 and all adults that were living during the independence all of a sudden "forgot" the Portuguese language.
Child labor
written by Shelly, September 08, 2007
Child labor is a global pandemic, and Brazil has large problems with kids working in agriculture, streets, etc...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5059106.stm child labor India
http://hrw.org/children/labor.htm
http://www.un.org/works/goingon/labor/goingon_labor.html child labor in Brazil
To Joao !
written by ch.c., September 08, 2007
I knew for a long time you were not very smart, but 3 of your countries were already mentioned in the list provided in the article, namely :" and Lusophone countries Angola, Mozambique, São Tomé & Príncipe, Cabo Verde and Guinea-Bissa"

You just added one : Macau.

Simple proof that contrary to the article saying ....there are other countries in the world where Portuguese is one of the official language.....reality is quite the opposite !

smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/cool.gif
To Shelly and....child labor !
written by ch.c., September 08, 2007
You forgot to mention the 2 millions Brazilians children in the sex trade....IN BRAZIL !!!

Yesssss you have more children in the sex trade....than sugarcane cutters !
And this children bring home far less money than the already low wages of sugarcane cutters working more in slaves alike
conditions.
Sugarcane cutters quotas is 10 to 12 tons...per day !
Children quota in the sex trade is probably 10 to 12 clients...per day !
The Brazilian flag should say : "everything for a few, the rest to the majority"

What a shame to humanity !
Ch.c
written by João da Silva, September 08, 2007
I knew for a long time you were not very smart,


So did I smilies/angry.gif
...
written by aes, September 08, 2007
You forgot to mention the 2 millions Brazilians children in the sex trade....IN BRAZIL !!!

According to whom? Where do you or anyone get the statistics for Brazilian children involved in the sex trade? Have these 2 to million children been arrested and convicted of sex crimes and are therefore available to be included in statistics. Or is this someones guess inorder to prove a point. Your figures are as suspect as your nationality or your English.
...
written by Ric, September 08, 2007
Some of the East Indians on the West Coast are truckers from BC.

Some run motels.

A couple of years ago we were driving east. It was graduation at Notre Dame. Every hotel was filled. We turned south on side roads deep into Amish country. Found an Amish style motel (whatever that is) in a little burg. They had a room.

The manager was from India.
AES
written by João da Silva, September 09, 2007
Your figures are as suspect as your nationality or your English.


AES,please do not waste your time and energy on discovering the nationality of an OLD SPINSTER.Just listen to her Rantings and Ravings. In "Aborgine Portuguese" spoken in Brazil ,we have a phrase "Mulher Mal Comida" to describe such Spinsters.

May be Ch.c is trying to entice 2 Million Brazilian children to work in his coffee plantation in Bahia. It is time for you to start researching the psychology of European Spinsters. The old bag is informative to certain extent,but not creative.She does not have any solutions.

Just let her rant and rave. Give short answers. Not worth wasting your Neurons smilies/grin.gif

btw, did it occur to you that this topic is "Will Brazil and Portugal Ever Agree on a Common Language? " and what has the "2 Million Children in Brazil involved in Sex Trade" or "Indians flocking into Great Brtain" got to with this issue?

btw, I am still hoping that Steve Fossett will be found alive.
...
written by João da Silva, September 09, 2007
Some run motels.


Yes, you are right. They also gave us good deals in CA & Vegas smilies/smiley.gif
Joao
written by Shelly, September 09, 2007
"Indians flocking into Great Brtain" got to with this issue?

You began this, not me by saying that the Indian are glad the Brits packed their bags. And I suppose your this has a lot to do with the issue? Joao, I respect you probably more than anyone else here, but to make a comment like this is erroneous. As a British citizen, I will not agree with your statement. Being married to an English man and having lived in the U.K. for many years gives me the opposite impression.Almost all Indians living in the U.K. are glad that they left India and are doing well economically. Their children are doctors, software engineers, economists.
Joao
written by Shelly, September 09, 2007
"Indians flocking into Great Brtain" got to with this issue?
You began this, not me by saying that the Indian are glad the Brits packed their bags. And I suppose your this has a lot to do with the issue? Joao, I respect you probably more than anyone else here, but to make a comment like this is erroneous. As a British citizen, I will not agree with your statement. Being married to an English man and having lived in the U.K. for many years gives me the opposite impression.Almost all Indians living in the U.K. are glad that they left India and are doing well economically. Their children are doctors, software engineers, economists.
Aes, as Joao said, it is not worth it...
written by Shelly, September 09, 2007
You forgot to mention the 2 millions Brazilians children in the sex trade....IN BRAZIL !!!

Nailed in the head!

According to whom? Where do you or anyone get the statistics for Brazilian children involved in the sex trade? Have these 2 to million children been arrested and convicted of sex crimes and are therefore available to be included in statistics. Or is this someones guess inorder to prove a point. Your figures are as suspect as your nationality or your English


Ch.C.

Give me some REAL statistical data, not fuzzy math from outer space...and let's not go into the "sex industry" because I have some figures on where the pedophiles come from...
I couldn't resist...here just for you Ch.c Part 1
written by Shelly, September 09, 2007
Ch.c., since you "are not from Brazil", do you mind doing a campaign in Europe asking European pedophiles to stay in their "lovely" country!

BRAZIL: SEEDY KIND OF TOURISM BOOM
Underage prostitution lures European men to Brazil's northern coast. Officials face a daunting task fighting so lucrative a trade in cities so poor.

By Henry Chu, Times Staff Writer
Los Angeles Times: February 9, 2005

FORTALEZA, Brazil — On the outside, the Villa Veneto is just another of the nondescript high-rise hotels catering to the foreign visitors who flock to this beachside resort town.

But take a look inside, and something unusual becomes apparent. A large number of the hotel's clientele, it seems, fit a particular profile: single, middle- aged European men, some overweight, others balding, and many in the company of scantily dressed, attractive young Brazilian women less than half their age.These aren't businessmen in town for a convention. Chances are, authorities say, they're sex tourists, men seeking flesh for sale thousands of miles from home, in a land where they are anonymous and, by local standards, fabulously rich. Over the last several years, Fortaleza and other cities along Brazil's northern coast have increasingly become magnets for what officials lament are the wrong kinds of visitors. Travel agencies in countries such as Italy and Germany openly market tour packages to Brazil that include the services of female escorts, sometimes girls barely into their teens.Now officials here are trying to stop the burgeoning trade, even as events around the world threaten to thwart them."UNICEF and international groups have really had their eyes trained on Asia," where sex tourism has long been a problem, said Patricia Campos of Cedeca, a local human rights group. Because of that, "there's been a migration of tourists of this kind to the northeast of Brazil — to Fortaleza, Natal, Recife. With the recent [tsunami] catastrophe in Asia, we're afraid that this shift will intensify."
Fighting it, however, means taking on the law of supply and demand in one of the poorest parts of the country, where thousands live in miserable slums and prostitution is often seen as a quick way out. Paid sex is allowed in Brazil; only pimping is illegal. Another twist in the law makes it difficult even to arrest men who pay for sex with girls between the ages of 14 and 18, although legislators are hoping to close that loophole.

Part 2
written by Shelly, September 09, 2007
To reverse the influx of sex tourists, authorities are faced with the daunting task of dismantling an industry that involves not just the hookers and their customers, but cabbies, hoteliers and even real estate agents, all of whom have cornered their own bit of profit from the traffic in sex.Ask almost any taxi driver, for example, and he'll know how to fix you up with a girl — or boy — to your liking, for an extra tip. Hotel clerks, their bosses bent on boosting occupancy, look the other way when guests bring back paid companions, even those who appear to be minors. Real estate agents unload properties on free-spending foreigners planning on holding sexual encounters there for themselves and others.
"There's a network of sexual exploitation that we didn't know about, that has been invisible," said Luizianne Lins, Fortaleza's newly elected mayor. "The right to sexual pleasure is a human right. But when you cross the Atlantic in order … just to do this, there's something wrong."As a city councilwoman, Lins was the chief author of a report in 2002 that delved into the phenomenon of sex tourism and criticized authorities for doing little to combat it.

Part 3
written by Shelly, September 09, 2007

Last month, Italian police arrested a travel agent who allegedly arranged trips to Brazil for customers interested in having sex with underage girls. And in October, officers here arrested a German resident of Fortaleza who allegedly used the Internet to help set up visiting Europeans with prostitutes, as well as send local girls to Germany to work as hookers there.

But such arrests have been few and far between in this city of 2 million people, in a region almost legendary for its poverty. In history and in literature, Brazil's nordestinos, the men and women of the northeast, are the country's down-and-outs, battered by droughts, forced to fan out across the country in search of work and sometimes so destitute they starve to death.

Turning tricks earns 20-year-old Joanaina Dias Matos a few hundred dollars a month, much more than the national monthly minimum wage of about $95. If she plays her cards right — some flattery here, an extra bit of flirting there — Matos can score gifts and drinks and a little extra to put away for her two children.

She divides her time between Iracema Beach and the Beira Mar district, two popular hangouts, where evidence of prostitution is obvious, and so is a bad aftertaste of colonialism. Tables along the seaside promenade are filled night after night with raucous groups of male European tourists quaffing beer, chatting in German, Italian and French, and slinging pale arms around thin, dark-skinned local girls.

Petite and self-assured, dressed in a tube top and a tiny blue wraparound skirt, Matos looks barely 15, a youthfulness that has served to her advantage.

"The men always say, 'I want them young.' They don't believe I'm 20," she said with a tiny smirk. Her normal fee for sex is about $18, or more now that it's the Brazilian summer; in low season, the price can drop to about $10.

Fortaleza's rise as a travel destination has been relatively recent compared with cities such as Rio de Janeiro or Salvador. It began to take off during the 1980s, marketed as an attractive option because of its proximity to Europe, affordability and pristine beaches.

It didn't take long for tour operators to discover that spicing their packages with the promise of sex could be lucrative.

"These companies were making a good profit. But these companies have seen that it's very easy here to have sex — not only easy and cheap, but also very safe, because Brazil is a developing country with the best AIDS-control program in the world," said Thomas Wlassak of the country's federal police.

Soon, men started filling the seats of regular and charter flights bound for northeastern Brazil from Europe. In 2000, for instance, 78% of the tourists who came to Fortaleza were men, the overwhelming majority between the ages of 26 and 50, according to the report on sex tourism issued three years ago.

Whether a newly announced crackdown on the trade will have much effect remains to be seen. A report released last month by the federal government said that one-fifth of Brazilian cities had underage prostitution rings. Authorities, who want to cut the number in half, have launched a national campaign.

Posters at the airport warn that sexual exploitation is a crime. Officials are trying to persuade hotel and taxi operators to adhere to a code of conduct against aiding and abetting prostitution.

They hope that the recent arrests in Italy and here in Fortaleza will deter those tempted to pander, but Wlassak said procurers were already finding new ways to thwart police.

"They're changing their modus operandi. Now they're buying houses near to the beaches and the city and taking the tourists there, because we don't have so much access to these houses," he said. "We have to ask the judge to issue a warrant to get inside these houses. It's very much harder. It's very difficult to investigate these people."

Activists complain that the government's nice-sounding words aren't backed up by the necessary funds. An earlier statewide plan to centralize social services for street children and boost the number of police officers who work with minors received only $500,000 last year, far short of the $2.6 million needed, said Marcia Cristine Oliveira of the children's advocacy group Curumins.

"It doesn't help to have a thousand different ideas and not have the money to do any of it," Oliveira said.

Matos, the 20-year-old, wants a better life for her 5-year-old daughter. Her voice momentarily wistful as she got ready to hit the beach again, she said, "Hopefully Brazil will be better then than it is now."

--------------------------------
NOTE: The articles introduced in this Clearinghouse do not necessarily represent the views of the Tourism Investigation & Monitoring Team (tim-team).
...
written by Shelly, September 09, 2007
From where
written by Shelly, September 09, 2007
I have some figures FROM WHERE the pedophiles come from...
...
written by Loki, September 09, 2007
Portuguese is also one of East Timor's two official languages
Shelly
written by João da Silva, September 09, 2007
"Indians flocking into Great Brtain" got to with this issue?
You began this, not me by saying that the Indian are glad the Brits packed their bags. And I suppose your this has a lot to do with the issue? Joao, I respect you probably more than anyone else here, but to make a comment like this is erroneous.


Shelly, thanks for your respect.However, I must remind you that I did not start anything.Lets recaptulate what we said:

1) The article talked about Brazil and Portugal agreeing on a common language, though I couldnt make out why they should do it.

2) Then Fraulein Ch.c came out with a question about what other countries than the ones mentioned in the article have Portuguese as the official language. I was absent minded and named four countries three of which were already cited in the article.

3) Then you came up with Goa and I corrected you (btw, there were three enclaves the Portugueses had in India-Goa, Deiu and Daman) and stressed that the official languages of Goa was not Portuguese.

4) Then I said:"Then we got into a discussion about the Portuguese colonization in India and they were all uninanimous in saying that Goa could have been much better off, if the Portugueses had packed their bags and left India,along with the Brits!! I should have been more explicit,but unfortunately I was not. What they wanted to say was that the Portuguese did not contribute anything to the development of their Indian colonies,execept enjoying the "Praias" , while the Brits were building strong democratic institutions,building railway, educational system,etc; The Brits left India the right time,while the French delayed a bit and Salazar was hanging on till 1961 and had to be kicked out by force.btw, the Indian Armed Forces that took those three territories were trained by the Brits.So there was no anti British sentiments there,but Anti Salazar and the "Caudilhismo" of the Portuguese.They were really LTAO Salazar!

5) The Indians I met were not Anti British nor Anti American. However, I observed that the American influence is quite accentuated since they think the old Brits are too stiff in their attitude towards their ex colonials, while the Americans are quite open minded and cheerful.

6) To close this issue, Brazil should do well if we look towards India as a great trading partner instead of focussing just on the Middle Kingdom. A nice article I read in this week in "Exame" who interviwed Rattan Tata.

btw, this discusion of which version of Portuguese is full of bull s**t. We must recognize that a) The aborginal version of ours is spoken by almost 200 Millions b) The International trade is conducted in ENGLISH c) Lots of "Aborgines" speak English d) The Brazilian "Aborgines" are tolerant to foreigners,even when they massacre the "Pure Portuguese" from Portugale)You cant expect every "Aborgine" to speak Portuguese like José Sarney speaks (or writes-remember "Moribundo do Fogo"?) . I am sure your family and the "Brazilian Dude" do!
Joao
written by Shelly, September 10, 2007
ou cant expect every "Aborgine" to speak Portuguese like José Sarney speaks (or writes-remember "Moribundo do Fogo"?) . I am sure your family and the "Brazilian Dude" do!

Man, I am sorry but I don't remember Moribundo do Fogo...I will check to see if my memory clears up! smilies/wink.gif smilies/grin.gif smilies/cheesy.gif. I will check later, my computer crashed this afternoon and I have TONS of work to do....
RE: to me
written by me, September 11, 2007
It was the "apparently he told me" part that got me going. This implies that you are unsure that he told you - or maybe you were under the influence of GBH and someone told you later that he told you.
To Shelly
written by Pardal, September 12, 2007
I'm just trying to be helpful...the book written by José Sarney is: Marimbondos de Fogo. A translation will probably be: Wasps of Fire.
...
written by Bruno Siqueira, September 13, 2007
first i gotta say im brazilian and i dont have much difficulty to understand the european portuguese, though its really different from ours one. anyway, brazilian portuguese is the most used around the world. yeah it is. Lara Fabian has gotten some songs recorded in portuguese and she totally uses the brazilian portuguese accent and spelling. for instance, she only says "você" that means "you". in Portugal they use "Tu" more than "você". and here in Brazil its the opposite. Shakira, in "Rock in Rio LISBOA (LISBON)" speaks to the portuguese people in brazilian accent and spelling too. thats funny.
anyway i just think each country has got its language, even if its the same, the spelling and accent may change along the years even with acords, people change. everything changes.
VIVA A LINGUA BRASILEIRA
written by Iracema, September 13, 2007
a gente fala a lingua brasileira, jamais vou falar CHAMEM-NA ou AMO-TE feito os portugas
viva Mario Andrade,
viva a lingua brasileira

sobre nossa lingua brasileira: http://cienciaecultura.bvs.br/...6v57n2.pdf
DIFFERENT LANGUAGES
written by Iracema, September 13, 2007
All Portuguese films shown in Brazil had to subtitled for us to understand.
All Portuguese soap operas in Brazil had to be dubbed into Brazilian Portuguese for us to understand.
We don't like Portuguese music, you can't get any videos from Portugal on MTV Brasil, because we don't understand the language from Portugal.
They don't have nice pronunciation - it's easier to understand someone from Buenos Aires than someone from Lisbon. smilies/cry.gif
...
written by "Magnus Brasil", September 13, 2007
They don't have nice pronunciation - it's easier to understand someone from Buenos Aires than someone from Lisbon.


If you make an huge effort, you can understand PT-PT, but they sure have a s**t pronounce.
They eat the first and last letters of all words and speak fast as hell! They understand us, but we don't understand them! And you know why? Because besides many brasilians speak broken PT-BR, we speak clear, WITH ALL THE LETTERS! And in a normal pace...

PT-BR: P-O-R-T-U-G-A-L, c-a-i-x-a, a-b-o-b-r-i-n-h-a
PT-PT: O-R-T-G-A-L-E, c-a-i-x-i, a-b-b-r-i-n

Understand?
A discussao mais estupida do mundo
written by Cip, September 13, 2007

PT-BR is quite slower than PT-PT. This makes it more soft-toned and appealing to foreigners. The same applies between Spanish from Spain and Mexican or Argentinian. Spoken PT-PT is gramatically a bit more elaborate but this does not make spoken PT-BR wrong, just different. The same applies otherwise. Spoken PT-BR has a more diverse lexico that enriches all the versions of PT (although portuguese seldomly take any advantage of it).

Brasilians are not used to listen to PT-PT at all. This creates hearing difficulties at the beginning. Nothing that a couple of weeks in PT would not solve. The spelling and gramatical differences are minimal and decrease with the complexity and skill/style of the writer. Brasil and PT show so many variations within their own borders that it is ridiculous to try to draw the line along the Atlantic.

Portuguese on the other hand are well acquainted with PT-BR (and, by the way, usually love it) and can reveal more difficulties to understand açoreano than mineiro.

Most topics in this forum arise from plain reciprocal ignorance.
more authonomy for Brazilian usage
written by Mariah, September 17, 2007
How come spelling system became the most important problem for Brazil to resolve?
You don't hear about ''spelling problems'' in the USA, yet their Webster-introduced spellings are pretty different than
the British ones?

Spelling shouldn't be the same, Brazil and Portugal are not the same country.
Brazilian Portuguese is almost a different language, like Afrikaans it is compared to Dutch or Swiss German to Hochdeutsch.
Brazilians should be more pround of their own usage...Trying to copy Portugal is not the way to go.
Boa sorte!
Portuguese is a cultural legacy
written by Pê, October 14, 2007
I can´t understand all this nonsense. Portuguese is a means to an end: to communicate; whether this is achieved by using Portuguese from Portugal or Brasil. And communicating doesn't always assume its verbal form: it can be done by writing, painting or through music. I am lucky enough to have traveled to Brasil and having spent enough time in its cities and countryside to come to undestand some of its culture.
And without the references, the "cultural map", it is almost impossible to digest the beauty of most things brazilian. The same thing works for Portugal's case: most brazilians don´t understand the language because they lack this curiosity: Portugal is still seen as the "slave - hungry, indian - killer" colonist. Lula da SIlva said something in those terms, as did Caetano Veloso. It will take some time for the southern americans to accept History, and the fact that those days are gone. Portugal and Spain are no longer colonists, by the contrary, they are thriving countries in a new european reality, such as Brasil and Argentina are in Mercosul.
Accepting the fact that it is O.K. not to understand eachother from time to time should be the normal response; also the fact that most spanish (from Spain) understand portuguese(from Portugal) much better than portuguese(from Brasil) is only natural, because we have been neighbours for the past 1000 years...
Don´t go on making comparisons between this and that: Portuguese is a legacy; if brazilians use it in a different way, it´s their right. No country can claim ownership of a language; ont the other hand no country should ever assume that because of its demographics, a heritage like this one is going public...
Language as the most effective tool of domination
written by Lost in the multilingual new world, but still happy, November 01, 2007
"not domination
written by adrianerik, 2007-09-07 13:17:20

"as far as english is concerned i really don't think that it's a matter of domination".

If we're talking about language, that will always be a matter of domination. In other works, domination always happens through and because of the language. A language, by itself, is the most important power's tool of any society.
...
written by Mr., November 16, 2007
i agree with one of the comments that say that portuguese from portugal is the pure portuguese..
and joao da silva.. you are quite dummy..
i learned protuguese from portugal.. and listen a little bit to portuguese from brazil and i have tio say this: "Portuguese from brazil is very ulgy.. if you compare to portuguese from portugal.."

and it doesn't matters if brazil have more people that talk portuguese.. :S it's an stupid excuse..
i vote no.. of course to the common language.. etc..
...
written by .., November 16, 2007
OMG..
such a noncence here!

i'm portuguese and i have brazilian friends.. and i always understand them.. and they understand me..!
:S:S:S:S
...
written by l., November 16, 2007
If you make an huge effort, you can understand PT-PT, but they sure have a s**t pronounce.
They eat the first and last letters of all words and speak fast as hell! They understand us, but we don't understand them! And you know why? Because besides many brasilians speak broken PT-BR, we speak clear, WITH ALL THE LETTERS! And in a normal pace...

PT-BR: P-O-R-T-U-G-A-L, c-a-i-x-a, a-b-o-b-r-i-n-h-a
PT-PT: O-R-T-G-A-L-E, c-a-i-x-i, a-b-b-r-i-n

Understand?


read what i'm gonna to write:

ignorance, ignorance, ignorance, ignorace
I-G-N-O-R-A-C-E

When portuguese people eat letters or creat letters, the pigs will fly!

:S:S:S:S
you need to clean your hears..
...
written by mar, November 16, 2007
All Portuguese films shown in Brazil had to subtitled for us to understand.
All Portuguese soap operas in Brazil had to be dubbed into Brazilian Portuguese for us to understand.
We don't like Portuguese music, you can't get any videos from Portugal on MTV Brasil, because we don't understand the language from Portugal.
They don't have nice pronunciation - it's easier to understand someone from Buenos Aires than someone from Lisbon.


All Brazillian films shown in Portugal had to subtitled for us to understand.
All Brazillian soap operas in Portugal should have to be dubbed into Portuguese from portugal because we barely understand (including me)
We don't like brazillian music, you can't get any videos from Brazil on MTV Portugal, because we don't understand the language from Brazil.
They don't have nice pronunciation - it's easier to understand someone from Madrid than someone from Brasilia.

smilies/wink.gif
...
written by Andrew Wyatt, February 21, 2008
As an American i must say that European Portuguese is more beautifully spoken than the Brazilian one. Living in California, some of my town is now learning Portuguese (european. Thanks to the lovely Andre Medeiros from lovely Lisbon) due to most of them traveling to Portugal and seeing its amazing landscape and culture. I have never had a problem in Portugal when it comes to safety. However once while i went to Brazil (i like to see cultural differences) my 13 year old daughter was raped and my 16 year old son was stabbed by two brazilian 'gangsters'. There were on lookers and my daughter even said there were these other men laughing at her. The onlookers apparently looked at the whole thing as if it was a movie. I personally find it ridiculous how the police handled the situation. They shrugged it off and simply left after a 5 minute interview. I spent my christmas and new year in Portugal and it was amazing. I now own a lovely house near Lisbon.

What i do find ridiculous is how Brazilians bash the European Portuguese and yet they have the stupidity of going to Portugal. If you don't like a country or its people or language then simply don't go there. Its really that simple. Why are brazilians leaving the 'comfort' of they're country to live in Portugal if all they can do is talk bad about them. I don't find it right how Brazil is trying to act strong and powerful thinking it can change anything it wants. I know the US is the same but i don't support it eigther. Brazil is not a world power and has no right to think its better than Portugal. One time i was with a friend of mine in a bar in Portugal when a Brazilian man sat next to us and started saying very racist comments on the Portuguese. I could tell partly what he said as i have some knowledge of Portuguese.

Recently there has been a petition released by Portuguese people arguing for not to be a change in the language. So far it has had nearly 500.000 signatures and i have sent it in a chain mail all around my town. Many people have already signed it and i will make sure that it is successful. I think the brazilians need to loose the habit that they think they're better than everyone else because frankly, they're not. I know Americans aren't nothing special eigther but at least we embrace our culture and we embrace the British like the parents or our nation. We respect them an i think brazilians should respect the Portuguese. If Brazilians don't have any respect for themselves or others they can 'try' to be nice to the Portuguese who deserve it.

In 2 years i'm moving to Portugal with my wife and we are going to settle there. My son has a nice portuguese girlfriend who he stays in constant contact with. She is very respectable to me and my wife and she gets on with my daughter as though they were sisters. She has never been rude infront of us and has never bashed or been racist about anyone. When my daughter told her what happened in Brazil she was amazed and said Brazil looked like a wonderful country.

I know i most likely have offended someone but i think the truth needs to be spoken. Portugal is a wonderful place and i can't wait to live in it. I respect its culture and know many more Americans will also fall in love with it once they've visited.

Thank you for reading,
Andrew Wyatt

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