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There's a Cure for Brazil's Slums. It's Called Napalm PDF Print E-mail
2007 - October 2007
Written by Janer Cristaldo   
Sunday, 28 October 2007 16:33

Favela in a Rio hill The Lefts are amusing. They've always stood up for banditism, claiming that criminality is a product of poverty. When governor Sérgio Cabral Filho, from Rio de Janeiro, supports abortion as a method to reduce violence in the State and says that Rocinha favela (slum), in Rio's south side, is a "bad guy producing factory" it's a pretty kettle of fish.

Cabral based himself in the book Freakonomics by Americans Steven Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner, who associate abortion legalization in the United States to a reduction in criminality in poor areas, although they stress that such an association raises an ethical debate.

According to the daily newspaper O Estado de S. Paulo, non-governmental entities and slum residents accused the governor of criminalizing poverty and distorting the pro-abortion movement discourse, which supports suspending pregnancy as a woman's right of having autonomy over her own body, and not as way of fighting violence.

"With these statements the government makes it clear that it supports the criminalization of poverty. Since the State has no policy to integrate the poor, they rather shouldn't be born. The policy is one of extermination," said Camilla Ribeiro, of the Global Justice NGO.

"For the wealthier the State acts as a protector, for the poorer as a predator. In order to justify itself it paints the slum dweller as the other, from where all the evil emanates," said teacher Rodrigo Torquato da Silva, who has been living in Rocinha for the last 36 years.

According to Adriana Gragnani, of University of São Paulo's (USP) Nucleus of Woman and Gender Relations Studies, Cabral based himself in old-fashioned ideas, from the 60s. "This premise of reducing the number of poor to fight violence, be it by abortion or contraceptive, is an old one. In reality you decrease poverty by boosting the population's standard of living."

Now, let's get to the facts. Far from me supporting the Lefts' vision that criminality is a factor deriving exclusively from misery. Criminals, we have them in all social classes, the same as with honest people to whom never occurred to commit crimes in order to enjoy a better life.

But it's obvious that favelas are factories of criminals. They manufacture bad guys to a such degree that not even the police manage to get inside the hills where they live unless they get substantial manpower and heavy weaponry. For ages the Brazilian slums have become true Bantustans, where black populations for the most part are confined, in general at the service of drug trafficking or at least as a protection wall for drug dealers.

Bantustans were pseudo-states devised by the apartheid regime in South Africa, in order to keep blacks off the whites neighborhoods and lands, but close enough so that they might be used as cheap labor. In Brazil, this inactive labor was appropriated by the drug trafficking.

Are the high classes the biggest responsible for drug consumption? No doubt. But who supplies them is the favela. It's also obvious that misery and frenetic prolificity favors criminality. If a family can provide for a child but instead has seven or eight kids it's obvious that most if not all will go to the streets school. At this school one doesn't learn exactly etiquette and good manners.

Then we have television as a catalytic element of violence. The little screen is within reach of any criminal and illiterate person and it shows, without any reserve, a dream world, technological wonders, luxurious environments and sensual women.

What's left to the poor devil who roams the streets but resentment? Drug trafficking is a way out within reach of his hand. It pays better than the job of many liberal professionals and doesn't require that many qualifications. Obviously the slum is a delinquents' factory.

For a long time now I've been championing the idea that the luxury and ostentation shown on television constitute one of the main causes of violence in Brazil. The little screen promises paradise and the poor devil lives in hell. "I want that too," the poor devil will say. It happens that he doesn't have the money to buy. He then kills and steals.

What should we do? Should we censor TV? Absolutely not. What's needed - something that in my opinion will never occur in Brazil - is to get rid of the country's misery. I don't say poverty but misery. I'm not adept at defending social equality.

The revolutionaries of 89 did not consult me - and haven't consulted the French either - when they brandished as their flag Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. Freedom and fraternity, it's OK. On the other hand equality is another story. Poor and rich will always exist in all countries of the world.

What we cannot accept are men and women, elders and children, thrown to the rough streets, living in more than precarious conditions and eating badly without satisfying their hunger. People who take refuge in their sleep and who make an effort to keep on sleeping despite the traffic noise. Because to get up means to have to tackle reality.

There is a public opinion sector that doesn't like to hear the truth. One day before Cabral's statements, Rio's Security Secretary, José Beltrame, said that "a shot in Copacabana is one thing and one in Coréia favela is something else." It was another pretty kettle of fish. But it's obvious that a shot in Copacabana is something quite different from a shot in the favela.

Just as the massacre of ten thousand people in Darfur is one thing and the death of an Israeli officer is another. As a subway accident with two or three wounded people in Berlin or Paris is a thing and a tragedy with a bus or train that kills hundreds of people in India or in Pakistan is another.

To the West, it's indifferent that hundreds or thousands of people die in Africa or in the East. Yet the death of an Israeli soldier or a small subway accident in Europe will touch us.

It's easy to any reader to admit the last two propositions. What's hard it to accept the first one. It's too close to us and it reveals the idea that there is no equal treatment to those who live in the favela and those who live in Copacabana.

Now, it's obvious that there isn't. Just for starters, on Copacabana's corners there isn't - for now anyway - drug dealers entrenched with high-caliber war weapons lying in wait for the policemen. The day this happens - and this day might not be far - a shot in Copacabana will be as banal as a shot in the favela. Today's random shots are already preparing the terrain for future days.

In fact, abortion is not the solution. Abortion is just a patch. Solution would be family planning, misery reduction. But it's also hard to admit that families of privileged classes have access to safe abortion, while the poor are exposed to the butchers fury.

Catholics are blind and deaf to this disparity, they prefer to see women dying or in jail instead of having the right to  a peaceful abortion and they obviously are shocked when someone stands up brandishing the obvious in public.

Meanwhile violence and poverty are part and parcel of being Brazilian. A birth rate reduction might even reduce drug trafficking. But it will never get rid of it. The drug trafficker moves around the favela hill as a fish in water.

If some governor wants to get rid of drug trafficking in the slums for good, the way I see it, there is only one solution: napalm.

Janer Cristaldo - he holds a Ph.D. from University of Paris, Sorbonne - is an author, translator, lawyer, philosopher and journalist and lives in São Paulo. His e-mail address is janercr@terra.com.br.

Translated from the Portuguese by Arlindo Silva.



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Comments (212)Add Comment
...
written by aes, October 29, 2007
If some governor wants to get rid of drug trafficking in the slums for good legalize it and tax it. It is ludicrous for the state to interfere with an individuals desire to hurt himself. Other than the user, it is a victimless crime. The cost to the state is beyond calculation. Decriminalize it. People will chose to use these substances weather they are legal or not. Decriminalization takes away the illegal profit. Sell it and tax it as cigarettes; certainly tobacco kills more people and is more addicting then any illegal drug. The state creates a climate of gangsterism and dispair in an aborted attempt to benefit the citizenry. First decriminalize drugs and then massively educate. The result would be an end to the culture of drug gangsterism. The levels of addiction would remain constant, but the quality of life for the citizens of Brazil would be greatly improved. The money spent for enforcement and incarceration would find greater utility in health and education. It is the illegality that is the greatest cancer not the drug.
...
written by David Mendoza, October 29, 2007
As a foreigner, what I observe is the basic unfairness of Brazilian society. There are few opportunities for social mobility. If the author of the article had been born in a favela then probably he would not have passed his Vestibular, let alone got to study at the Sorbonne.

Very clearly the problem is lack of opportunity rather than lack of ability. If the people who efficiently manage the drug trade and Rio Carnival blocos were put in charge of the air traffic control system, then it may even work!

It’s almost like you have a caste system with a strangulating bureaucracy to keep everyone in their place.
...
written by conceicao, October 29, 2007
While I am adamantly opposed to abortion on moral grounds, I do not dismiss the analysis offered in Freakonomics as wrong. I do agree with aes that legalizing drugs could be an
effective means of defusing drug-related violence emanating from the Rio favelas. Finally, I wish the author had discussed possible beneficial effects from regularizing the titles to
slum dwellers homes as opposed to just bulldozing them. In any case, the positive economic and image effects to Brasil from a clean, safe Rio would be enormous.
It's not true, it's exactly the other way around.
written by Mario Silvio, October 29, 2007
" There are few opportunities for social mobility."
Despite the leftists stating it at every oportunity they have this is a completly false statement. Nothing could be more unfair to the brazilian society than saying: There are few opportunities for social mobility.
Brazil is problably among the 5/6 countries in the world where it's easier to climb the social scale and it's very simple to prove it.
There are hundreds of thousands of imigrant's sons who went to college and many of them are millionaires nowadays.
I'd like to ask David Mendoza (and whoever feel like answering it) a couple of questions I'd asked many times before without ever getting an answer:
How do you explain so many people not knowing the local language,with no social relationship, with not a clue about local culture and habits were (and still are!) able to succeed?
Who do you think has a better start, one who just arrived at a strange place or someone who was born there?
The main problem with the left is they don't care about facts. Reality is just a mith for them.
"the criminalization of poverty"
written by ch.c., October 30, 2007
but....but...but that is what your deaths squads, mostly police men NOT in uniforms, are doing, by killing thousands of poor children !
Dont they ?

As to the napalm bombs in the favelas, a better idea would be to put these bombs in your Planalto and Senate !
Are they not the ones "supposed" to protect your society ?
Lets face it, they failed and they are still failing.....miserably !

As to the statement " Criminals, we have them in all social classes," I would add to ...all countries.
The question is by how much more...or less....compared with other countries.
The stats are quite clear and just mentioned today in another article in this same site :
UK has a crime rate of 1 per 100'000 capita, USA 6 and Brazil 27 !!!!!
(which by the way is a bad interpretation of the real published stat that says that ASSUMING.....1......AS THE BASE....is given to UK, the USA would get 6 and Brazil 27)

Knowing also that Brazil is in the bottom 10 world ranking for the social and wealth distribution,
the easiest way to reduce crime rate is to reduce the wealth inequality.
Because if you dont redistribute more equally, the poors will take...anyway...one way or the other, and wether you like it or not.
What do they have to lose ????? Very little.....except their own death, but when dead they dont suffer anymore by definition.
And killing them is of no value either, others will replace them as long as you dont redistribute the country wealth more equally.
Mario Silvio
written by João da Silva, October 30, 2007
The main problem with the left is they don't care about facts. Reality is just a mith for them.


You have a point there. I am glad that you brought this up.In reality, the left is promoting DOWNWARD mobility.
Ch.c
written by João da Silva, October 30, 2007
As to the napalm bombs in the favelas, a better idea would be to put these bombs in your Planalto and Senate !


Your suggestion is a bit radical butworth being analysed. However, is there any other alternative to these Napalm bombs ?

Come out with alternative suggestions to keep the cost low smilies/grin.gif
Janer Cristaldo
written by Shelly, October 30, 2007
What you are saying here, I have been saying for the past 5 months since I joined this blog. I am from Rio and can speak about the realities that our governador tries to ignore. He is being a sexist, son of a hoot, so the problems begins with who? Us women. He is clearly blaming the women in the favela, how about if we castrate all man? I think if they did it, then it would be fair. Having you seen the latest on Globo about "women on the raise in favelas" , they are participating on some equal terms on drug deal decisions, take guns around the town, kill with no mercy? I saw the video with this girl, she was breast feeding a little innocent baby, he was 2 1/2 years old. Innocent child that is learning how to be a coppa killer, in two more, he could do some damage. This is the reality of Rio.I have heard from police offices, high rank that they know how to end this, when I read the word napalm bombs, I though it had already happened. I have heard of ebola, and other diseases. Kind of horrible thing to be wasting my time with. I am for the legalization of abortion, but not on these grounds, because it defeats the real purpose. But then again, this is Brazil, they will get a issue and twist it, give a brazuca flair voila, we have a new creation.
...
written by Shelly, October 30, 2007
My friends here the link to the story. You have to feel for this little baby. http://oglobo.globo.com/rio/
go to videos, there is one clip with a girl holding a gun with tight shorts, listen carefully to why she decided to go along on this path. The solution to our problems is given in this interview and nobody has moved. Its sacrilege !
You are right João
written by Mario Silvio, October 30, 2007
"the left is promoting DOWNWARD mobility."

That's what they are good on doing, but not for them of course. As soon as they take the power they start getting richer and richer.
Reinstate the death penalty
written by Yowser, October 30, 2007
Napalm no, but reinstating the death penalty would be one of many solutions in dealing with crime emanating from the favellas. Some of the most advanced (and advancing nations) in the world utilize the death penalty to control crime:
USA, Japan, Singapore, China.
To all those bleeding heart liberals who oppose the death penalty consider the following:
~ We are all going to die. Those who kill just get to go first.
~ Killing an unborn human baby is hideous yet liberals gladly embrace it
~ Killing (executing) a murderer is self defense for society

Brazil should reinstate the death penalty.
Mario Silvio
written by João da Silva, October 30, 2007
That's what they are good on doing, but not for them of course. As soon as they take the power they start getting richer and richer.


Mario, years ago, we had an honorable middle class, that used to care for the poor. Now, the middle class people like us are being squeezed out.Shelly makes lot of sense when she talks about the plight of her dad and his (our) struggle to maintain our dignity and honor in spite of the bulls**t transmitted by the leftist looneys. Man, it is becoming more and more difficult to talk to "analfabetos" these days. They are the power,my friend. What difference does it make if you have education or not.For that matter, it is better to be uneducated (or pseudo educated) and wait for "Bolsa Familia"
Americans should be the last ones to talk about legalizing drugs
written by A Brazilian, October 30, 2007
I do agree with aes that legalizing drugs could be an effective means of defusing drug-related violence emanating from the Rio favelas.


It will be the fastest way to create a land of drug addicts and useless people constantly numbed down by the effects of narcotics. Why don't the US do it first? Why to experiment with Brazil's population?
...
written by David Mendoza, October 30, 2007
"I'd like to ask David Mendoza (and whoever feel like answering it) a couple of questions I'd asked many times before without ever getting an answer:
How do you explain so many people not knowing the local language,with no social relationship, with not a clue about local culture and habits were (and still are!) able to succeed?
Who do you think has a better start, one who just arrived at a strange place or someone who was born there?
The main problem with the left is they don't care about facts. Reality is just a mith (sic) for them."

I am a leftist?!! That's funny.

Motivated immigrants are going to succeed anywhere: in the UK, in the USA, and even in Brazil. That is a different issue from social mobility of the established population.

I remain horrified that so many well-educated, civilised (usually white) Brazilians seek to blame the (often non-white) poor for their condition. Maybe rather than seeking to exterminate the poor you would be better off allowing them to escape from poverty. Generally, people with prospects tend not to become drug addicts or career criminals.
...
written by aes, October 30, 2007
". . .claiming that criminality is a product of poverty." You dont have to be poor to be a criminal.
IT IS TIME BRASIL HAD A WOMAN PRESIDENT
written by forrrest allen brown, October 31, 2007
not that crazy commie that ran last time eather
go back shelly and start woman power like silia maria caldron did in
porto rico in 2000 she was nothing but a woman with a simi rich husban and an idea if she could get women on her platform
by feed the poor kids
send the poor kids to school
raise the welfare rate per child
slow the drug gangs by cutting there time in jail if they were turned in by there fanily
paying kids for info on there or where the drugs were

won by a land slide
and now with 2 women in power in the south
about time

sha also went after croupt police and politicans , judges by paying there secetaries
a reward for helping
do it i will come down and help you
also a am a very good shot with a machine pistol and a hand gun
love the long guns though
...
written by A brazilian, October 31, 2007
I remain horrified that so many well-educated, civilised (usually white) Brazilians seek to blame the (often non-white) poor for their condition. Maybe rather than seeking to exterminate the poor you would be better off allowing them to escape from poverty. Generally, people with prospects tend not to become drug addicts or career criminals.


Europeans have become such pussies. I actually admire the US because they have the balls to do what is needed to be done, Europeans are all about politically correctness and all that crap. You will all be bowing towards Meca pretty soon anyway.

The problem in Brazil is the very low moral standards. The poor doesn't succeed because they don't think they can make anything and any effort would be for nothing. Immigrants usually move to another country to try a new life and that motivates them, and that shows that is possible to succeed in Brazil. The other guy actually have a point.

The lebanese immigrants that recently arrived in 10 years will be middle class and upper middle class, and after that some of them will be rich.
Forrest
written by João da Silva, October 31, 2007
IT IS TIME BRASIL HAD A WOMAN PRESIDENT


Like Eva, Isabelita and Cristina? Whom do u have in mind for Brasil, Dilma? If u say yes, to all the questions, I would say "It is time for U.S. to elect Hillary as the POTUS next year" smilies/grin.gif
...
written by João da Silva, October 31, 2007
The problem in Brazil is the very low moral standards. The poor doesn't succeed because they don't think they can make anything and any effort would be for nothing. Immigrants usually move to another country to try a new life and that motivates them, and that shows that is possible to succeed in Brazil. The other guy actually have a point.


Yeah.Remember you said a few months ago that we have lost our moral values? Where the heck were u all this time?
David Mendonza
written by João da Silva, October 31, 2007
I remain horrified that so many well-educated, civilised (usually white) Brazilians seek to blame the (often non-white) poor for their condition. Maybe rather than seeking to exterminate the poor you would be better off allowing them to escape from poverty. Generally, people with prospects tend not to become drug addicts or career criminals.


I remain horrified that you generalize all the "well- educated (usually white) Brazilians" to be CIVILIZED and discard all the "often non-white" folks to be uncivilized. Probably you have never been to Brasil or came in recently . By making such statement, you just proved that Mario Silvio is correct. You are really a myopic leftist liberal without understanding our culture. I am disppointed with the statement you made. You must be a Spaniard, being a foreigner and with the last name u have.Probably trained by the descendents of Gen.Franco or more likely Gen.Fidel Castro.
DRUGS, CRIME, POOR, AND NO EDUCATION ARE ALL CHOICES
written by JAY GLENN, October 31, 2007
DRUGS, CRIME, POOR, AND NO EDUCATION ARE ALL CHOICES.

We in America outlawed alcohol, bear and wine, (prohibition). That was a liberal experiment, do goodies out to change the world. It changed America, Gangsters made millions bootlegging running rum from Canada. A few years later Prohibition was reversed. The government, Federal and State tax it, it worked to some extent. Now the government is making money on the poor, killing the population. The mob moved in to gambling, so we also legalized gambling with our State Lotteries, now the gangsters are not making gambling profits the government is. The poor once again are paying for it. Watch the lines at the lottery sales sites. The line is full of people who have families with needs going UN filled. Legalizing anything will just change who is making the profit, the poor will still be paying the price. ALL THE LAWS IN THE WORLD WILL NOT CHANGE PEOPLES MIND SET. PEOPLE MUST MAKE THE CORRECT CHOICE. America is full of families that have been here for 6 to 8 generations and have next to nothing. Then we have families who are second generation living in huge homes with good jobs. There children going to private schools. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE MIND SET. SO TAKE CARE OF YOUR SELF, DON’T SET AROUNG LOOKING FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO AKE CARE OF YOU.
Jay Glenn
written by João da Silva, October 31, 2007
DRUGS, CRIME, POOR, AND NO EDUCATION ARE ALL CHOICES


Gee, Jay. We all know that you fly airplanes. Never imagined you have become a philosopher too smilies/grin.gif

On a serious note, you are absolutely correct about the prohibition and other things you mentioned.
João da Silva
written by David Mendoza, October 31, 2007
I use "civilised" as a synonym for "sophisticated/cultured". Your personal attacks are childish. They need to cease, or I shall ignore you as others do.

I don’t think I would refer to the Brazilian middle class as civilised in respect to an advanced moral system. Without wishing to upset my in-laws, wearing Diesel jeans and admiring French culture is not a standard definition of civilisation! For civilisation in Brazil we have to look to black Salvador, the ordinary people of the northeast, and to the Indians.

Read the article above! A PhD is arguing for poor people to be aborted. Maybe if he had been aborted instead, then the money lavished on him could have been used to educate fifty poor Brazilians. When Swift suggested the poor Irish ate their children, he was being satirical. There is already a slaughter of poor people in Brazil. We now hear an argument for culling them!

Brazil needs economic liberalisation, not eugenics.
...
written by Rodolfo Dias, October 31, 2007
Slums exist because Brazilian politicians don't govern for the future, they only govern for their 4 (or smilies/cool.gif years at office. Long-term just does not exist on a Brazilian politician's agenda. The first slum appeared in 1898 at the top of the Providence Hill near the harbour zone, and who cared about? Any mayor with an average inteligence would have looked into the future and realised that, sooner or later, all the mountains in the city would become covered by slums, and that those slums would be a free zone for the mobs and gangsters to stablish on. Did anyone do anything to impede that to happen? Besides of Carlos Lacerda (1960-1965) I do not remember of any politician who tried to move these people out of the slums to decent houses in the legal urban area. Far from it, a lot of politicians thought the slums were a good way to solve the problem of having cheap labour at hands without having to share the "good neighbourhoods" with the employees they didn't want to have around after hours. Even Darcy Ribeiro, a leftist, said some crap like "slums are not problem, slums are solution". Anyway, it's too late now, there's no longer land to resettle all these people. In the times of Carlos Lacerda, people on slums were not more than 100,000 people and now they might be about 1,500,000. Now they are all just reaping what they have sown. I just think everyone who can get a job elsewhere should move out of Rio de Janeiro and abandon this city. This city has no solution any more.
...
written by bo, October 31, 2007
Your suggestion is a bit radical butworth being analysed. However, is there any other alternative to these Napalm bombs ?



Cluster bombs...bunker busters. smilies/wink.gif
...
written by antiJaner, October 31, 2007
This guy is the most barbaric, moronic, miserable a*****es in the world. He should die and go to hell.
Tell us...
written by bo, October 31, 2007
how you really feel. smilies/cheesy.gif
...
written by A Brazilian, October 31, 2007
For civilisation in Brazil we have to look to black Salvador, the ordinary people of the northeast, and to the Indians.


This is probably the stupidest thing I have ever read. Civilization is much more than ugly clothing (or no clothes in the case of the indians) and non-sensical dances.

Do you know the difference between high culture and low culture? If Brazil is to become civilized then we need to run away from the stereotypes Globo and other blacks sell of this country. Salvador? Don't make me laugh.
...
written by A Brazilian, October 31, 2007
Yeah.Remember you said a few months ago that we have lost our moral values? Where the heck were u all this time?


I have been busy.
Let's make a deal
written by A Brazilian, October 31, 2007
For civilisation in Brazil we have to look to black Salvador, the ordinary people of the northeast, and to the Indian.


If they are so important to you then let's make a deal. We send them to your country, so they can "culture you up" in a very sweaty, primitive and noisy way, and you give us the ownership of several technologies. Isn't it fair? If Bahia is so good then why wouldn't you want it?

I am of the opinion that if Europeans like so much Bahia they should take it with them to Europe. Then in no time you would have some sort of muslim-baiano-francophone type of citizen. Think about it. Instead of Eurabia you would have a Bahiarabia.
Slums on hillsides
written by Yowser, October 31, 2007
What I want to know is how did Brazilian slums get the be on the hillsides (with the great views). All hillside property in the U.S. is prime property and the most expensive next to ocean side property.
...
written by aes, October 31, 2007
Yowser: That is why the favelas are so long standing, commanding view of the Atlantic, low rent, no taxes, no building codes, free electricity and cable.
...
written by Mario Silvio, October 31, 2007
"Motivated immigrants are going to succeed anywhere: in the UK, in the USA, and even in Brazil"
In Brazil, UK, USA ? True. Anywhere? Not true, but anyway doesn't it prove that Brazil has social mobility? .
"That is a different issue from social mobility of the established population."
I'd rather say it is a different issue from social mobility of PART of the established population, since also hundreds of thousands of established people were able to succeed too. I worked with many people who started as office boys and ended as directors. So, what would be the difference between those who climbed the social ladder? Motivation? Sure, but motivation comes from moral values, from behavior standards and now we got to what I think is the major explanation of why many people aren't able to make a decent living from their work:
" For civilisation in Brazil we have to look to black Salvador, the ordinary people of the northeast, and to the Indians"
May be this isn't the stupidest thing I have ever read because the competition is though (take Lula and Chavez for instance), but it's certainlly one of the most damaging. From hearing things like this from so many "intelectuals", many people are now convinced that beating drums everyday and jumping on the streets is high level culture and they can become rich doing only that.
Half a dozen made it like Olodum, specially because some europeans found it "tres chic" and pay them, but it's impossible for millions to live on making noise.I couldn't agree more with A Brazilian when he says:
if Europeans like so much Bahia (one of the most overrated concepts in human history) they should take it with them to Europe

Please, take it and enjoy it.


" Maybe rather than seeking to exterminate the poor you would be better off allowing them to escape from poverty"
I don't know anyone who is seeking to exterminate the poor and neither anyone who "doesn't allow them to escape from poverty". Who are you talking about?
Let's talk social mobility:
Do you know who owns the only two major airlines in Brazil? The second main TV network? The third? The fourth? Have you ever heard of Natura? Of Casas Bahia?
slums and poverty
written by Holandes, October 31, 2007
Let's talk social mobility:
Do you know who owns the only two major airlines in Brazil? The second main TV network? The third? The fourth? Have you ever heard of Natura? Of Casas Bahia?

I lived a while in a favela near copacabana and what surprised me mostly was the fact that there was just enough money going round to buy a television, refrigerator etc at Ponto Frio, Casas Bahia etc (on credit mostly) and just a little to few to send children to better schools, to improve the professional skills to get a better job etc. This is not simply about poverty, it seems to be about the frightening balance between just enough salary to feed oneself and a very very very small experience of consumption power, which keeps the dream alive. Most inhabitants of the favelas are not traffickers, most inhabitants are stuck in the favelas, hoping they will be able to move somewhere else, somewhere safer.
...
written by João da Silva, October 31, 2007
Cluster bombs...bunker busters.


This is what I like. Receiving alternative suggestions . I am sure Ch.c incorporated these two in his spread sheet and will becoming out with a final cost effective solution.After all he was the one who suggested alternative target smilies/grin.gif
To Joao and the junkie ANTIJANER !!!!!
written by ch.c., October 31, 2007
"Your suggestion is a bit radical"
But certainly more fair than puting napalm to the poors in the Brazilians favelas !

"This guy is the most barbaric, moronic, miserable a*****es in the world. He should die and go to hell."
We all know how cheap is to kill a poor Brazilian, by your police forces or death squads....police men too !!!!!!
Therefore I really wonder who is the most Barbaric, moronic, miserable a*****es in the world.
Look at your own stats...and publish them...!!!!!
...
written by João da Silva, November 01, 2007
"Your suggestion is a bit radical"


Lately I am learning to be a real British diplomat, old chap smilies/grin.gif. And you very hilarious smilies/wink.gif
A Brazilian
written by João da Silva, November 01, 2007
I have been busy.


I suppose gainfully busy. You better report back to your real duties, as I am seriously considering taking a vacation!
Mario Silvio
written by João da Silva, November 01, 2007
I worked with many people who started as office boys and ended as directors. So, what would be the difference between those who climbed the social ladder? Motivation? Sure, but motivation comes from moral values, from behavior standards and now we got to what I think is the major explanation of why many people aren't able to make a decent living from their work:


Mario, you said it all and thanks. From the mid 60´s till mid 80´s , we had moral values and now no longer.

Do you know who owns the only two major airlines in Brazil? The second main TV network? The third? The fourth? Have you ever heard of Natura? Of Casas Bahia?


I know part of the story.Could you clue us all in about the rest?
Dom.Mendonza
written by João da Silva, November 01, 2007
They need to cease, or I shall ignore you as others do.


I declare a cease fire. Thou shall ignore me as others do.U for real, Mendonza? I cant believe that your balls are being squeezed by your in-laws that rever the French Culture.But it is your choice, mah friend. Before I get off the blog, I just want you to know that your in-laws do not belong to France nor to Brasil, but a just a bunch of leeches ON YOU.

Mendonça, grow up.

ivete pra presidenta
written by Jussara Lima, November 01, 2007
tá na hora da gente ter uma presidenta
poderia ser Marta Suplicy, senhorita Sarney ou até Ivete Sangalo smilies/wink.gif
vamos na praia sambar
vamooooooooooooo
...
written by Simpleton, November 01, 2007
:all the mountains in the city would become covered by slums, and that those slums would be a free zone for the mobs and gangsters to stablish on.
:Brazilian slums get the be on the hillsides (with the great views)

Whether it be the poor or the rich that take the high ground the result is the same except when the flood waters rise beyond their normal bounds o' the anchoring of the foundation was made in haste.

I think you'd best turn over the high ground to say someone like forrest or I. With clear views down to the better neighborhoods where the mafiosa live and an understanding of "cultured" people with or with out funds, with or with out trappings of "modern" society, with or with out the need for ornate machine made coverings for their soles, we might, just might, have a chance at helping things. I know, it's a long shot but when you're that lucky or that good, the benefit benefits all. Napalm, cluter bombs, terrorists in state garb (or out of garb off duty), euthanasia, none of this is required.

Joao, you are hereby ignored (and drunk, you ol sot!@).
...
written by David Mendoza, November 01, 2007
I am confused by the special pleading in this thread. It seems to me a statement of the obvious that a white Brazilian will almost always be advantaged over a moreno or black Brazilian of the same abilities.

Janer Cristaldo’s solution is to cull poor (overwhelmingly non-white) Brazilians. How can intelligent people even THINK such wickedness?
Abortion and contraceptives
written by Wehwalt, November 01, 2007
Until Brazil legalizes abortion and undertakes a MASSIVE contraceptives programme the problem with unwanted and uncared for children will continue. The hypocrites in the various "churches" will ofcourse be "morally outraged" but f..k them. What good have they ever done to the poor??
The other important measure is to clean out all the parasitic politicians who take bribes. The chinese have an efficient way of dealing with corruption - public trials and if found guilty, public executions
I guess I was a little obscure, sorry
written by Mario Silvio, November 01, 2007
"Do you know who owns the only two major airlines in Brazil? The second main TV network? The third? The fourth? Have you ever heard of Natura? Of Casas Bahia
I know part of the story.Could you clue us all in about the rest? "

My pleasure. I was refering to the fact that those companies were built in only one generation by people who worked hard and with no "official support".

"From the mid 60´s till mid 80´s , we had moral values and now no longer"
You got it João da Silva, and the worst part is.... it's getting worse.


David Mendoza,
"I am confused by the special pleading in this thread"
Don't be, I'll try to explain.
" It seems to me a statement of the obvious that a white Brazilian will almost always be advantaged over a moreno or black Brazilian of the same abilities"
May be so, probably so. Than what ?????? Let's go back to the Casas Bahia issue. Isn't it obvious too that a free Brazilian born would be advantaged over an imigrant who came from a concentration camp? Well, one of them (imigrant who came from a concentration camp) owns Casas Bahia, by far the biggest retailer in Brazil.

Holandes,
"Most inhabitants of the favelas are not traffickers"
No they certainlly aren't;
"most inhabitants are stuck in the favelas, hoping they will be able to move somewhere else, somewhere safer. "
They are not stuck.
Old ideas never really go away
written by A brazilian, November 01, 2007
Until Brazil legalizes abortion and undertakes a MASSIVE contraceptives programme the problem with unwanted and uncared for children will continue. The hypocrites in the various "churches" will ofcourse be "morally outraged" but f..k them. What good have they ever done to the poor??


I know of a guy with ideas similar to yours, his name was Adolf Hitler and his party was the Nazi party. Germany by then engaged in a massive abortion and compulsory sterilizations for the ones deemed "unfit" (criminals, "anti-social" Germans, homosexuals, political enemies, gypsies, etc) plus euthanasia for the "dead weight" mentally ill, who was a burden to the state. Why pay treatment for people with some incurable mental illness? Wouldn't be better to just get rid of them so the good ones in a society can prosper? Their politics were much bigger than just killing Jews, it doesn't matter how much American movies would like us to believe otherwise.

That's why I think that anybody that promotes abortion as a solution is insane. Yes, I think you are insane.
BAHIA ROCKS
written by Jussara Lima, November 01, 2007
it seems that SULISTA people don't like BAHIA smilies/angry.gif
SHAME ON SULISTAS
Jussara Lima
written by João da Silva, November 01, 2007
BAHIA ROCKS


Excuse me Ju, you made a spelling mistake. Delete "K" and Replace "C" with "T".

it seems that SULISTA people don't like BAHIA


What difference does it make? BA is part of Europe now.

SHAME ON SULISTAS


De acordo. We are ashamed that we refuse to accept the rich culture of BA smilies/angry.gif
...
written by Shelly, November 01, 2007
Not all favelados are criminals. I agree, Rio has become such a s**t whole, thanks to our F governors! I am against abortion, and Cabral has given an opinion which has given the Catholic church more ammunition to keep their agenda going.I think women should be allowed to do whatever they way with their bodies, but the manner in which Cabral has suggested abortion, is not far from a fascist ideology. He promised to solve the solution in Rio, we are paying taxes and our beloved military man, are inside the cleaning toilets. It is time our government takes the responsibility for this mess and let's not create a division in our country. The north has a history of being discriminated by the southern states, maybe if we look deep inside we will come to an agreement here, we all need to do more community service, from phone calls to seeing children in the orphanages. I suggest next time you visit Bahia or any other northern state, that you take a time of your day to see the children living there and remember they are the future of our country. Brazil violates the UN human rights "law" (we signed, didn't we?), millions of children are being denied education, do we have someone checking to make sure that the kids attend school? Many times social workers abuse children and basically do no care about the welfare of the children they are dealing with.

1)Because the state does not pay them well
2)they are powerless
3)Many public orphanages are in such bad conditions unfit for humans. Many Americans would not keep their dogs in such places.

MARIO
"most inhabitants are stuck in the favelas, hoping they will be able to move somewhere else, somewhere safer. "
They are not stuck.

Where would you move them? Away from their jobs? Are you saying that the poor have to move away from where they work, from where their kids go to school? I remember well in the 80's and 90's there was a project, another failure of the Brazilian goverment, to relocate the population living in the favelas to places like Beldford Roxo, Nova Iguacu, etc. Do you think that someone living in Rocinha and working for a family in Ipanema will move to such places? This is why the program has failed. What should be done is give this places sanitation, schools, create good economic programs, more apprenticeship schools, decent wages, health care, etc.

The government wants to keep the population without education because they want subjugate and enslave the poor. Violence will only bring violence, take a history class or look at the news, and we are repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
...
written by Shelly, November 01, 2007
solve the solution in Rio

solve the problem in Rio
A brazilian
written by Shelly, November 01, 2007
It will be the fastest way to create a land of drug addicts and useless people constantly numbed down by the effects of narcotics. Why don't the US do it first? Why to experiment with Brazil's population?

Dear, we don't even need to go there. Do you want to know why the drug deals keep going on? Because we have high rank politicians directly involved with the drug traffic that is for sure. Do you know that Barra da Tijuca is actually safe, do you know why? I won't tell you, do a little research on the internet and you will find out. Recently a police detective helped the a drug baron scape an operation, he is not the only one!
To Joao !
written by ch.c., November 02, 2007
Clusters bombs and bunkers bombs is way too expensive and out of the Brazilian technology.
My spreadsheet says ETHANOL BOMBS would do the job. Much cheaper.
Ask Bin Lula he will agree with me, provided he doesnt drink the ethanol instead of puting it into the bomb !
Diverting money or a good from its supposed destination is what corruption is, after all.

smilies/cheesy.gif
To Shelly Chérie !
written by ch.c., November 02, 2007
"Why don't the US do it first? Why to experiment with Brazil's population?
The one who got the idea first should try it first, in my view.

Or are you trying to steal the first ranking of the USA for world competivity ?
Then you have to addict the other 70 countries too.

Are you not already trying to addict the world...with your ethanol ?
Little and no great succes...so far.
But keep working hard to reduce the selling price by another 50 % by importing african slaves as you did in the past and pay them with the Bolsa Familia...the equivalent of 0,50 per day for 3 delicious meals....as Lula repeated so many times.

Viva Bin Lula and his 4000 thieves.
Ch.C
written by João da Silva, November 02, 2007
Clusters bombs and bunkers bombs is way too expensive and out of the Brazilian technology.


Thanks bud, I always knew you were cost conscious. However, I must register my protest against your putting down our professionals who are very good in Tech field.

My spreadsheet says ETHANOL BOMBS would do the job. Much cheaper.


Since you chose the "alternative target" and your "spreadsheet" confirmed the cost effectiveness of this operation, my reply is "Authorised"

Ask Bin Lula he will agree with me, provided he doesnt drink the ethanol instead of puting it into the bomb !


BL would never ever agree with you. He doesnt matter and we dont mind taking all the necessary measures as suggested by your "SPREADSHEET" smilies/grin.gif
CH.C
written by Shelly, November 02, 2007
To Shelly Chérie !
written by ch.c., 2007-11-01 20:05:50
"Why don't the US do it first? Why to experiment with Brazil's population?
The one who got the idea first should try it first, in my view.

Or are you trying to steal the first ranking of the USA for world competivity ?
Then you have to addict the other 70 countries too.

Are you not already trying to addict the world...with your ethanol ?
Little and no great succes...so far.
But keep working hard to reduce the selling price by another 50 % by importing african slaves as you did in the past and pay them with the Bolsa Familia...the equivalent of 0,50 per day for 3 delicious meals....as Lula repeated so many times.

Viva Bin Lula and his 4000 thieves.


ARE YOU NUTS? I didn't write the message, a Brazilian did! And f**k YOU! I don't have anything to do with the slavery. Maybe you should look at the accounts in YOUR DAM country and see that YOU (ASSUMING, that you are a Swiss) have BLOOD money, from Africa, Brazil and other Third World Country. Nothing better than a bit of finesse, don't you agree?
...
written by Shelly, November 02, 2007
The only BOMB Brazil knows how to do is the one's seen at the "festa junina", "Cabecao de nego", "peido alemao", "estalinho"...
Jussara
written by A Brazilian, November 02, 2007
Our country is plagued by some peoples that insist in living like beasts. There's only one truth, relativism is for nihilistic Europeans and not for us. It's about time for them to stop their bestial practices and start building something human.
...
written by nenê, November 03, 2007
My opinion is better than LEGALIZE ABORTION IS PROVIDE FREE CONTRACEPTIVE TO LOW INCOME-WOMEN. PRICES OF THIS DRUG ARE STUPIDLY HIGH (TAXES AND MULTINATIONAL LABORATORIES PRICES) AND POOR WOMEN CAN'T AFFORD IT. WHY GO THROUGH A TRAUMATIZING EXPERIENCE SUCH AS ABORTION? GIVE THE WOMEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE OVER THEIR LIVES.
...
written by nenê, November 03, 2007
FORGOT TO MENTION THAT BESIDES ENDEMIC CORRUPTION, THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT DON'T PROVIDE FREE CONTRACEPTIVE BECAUSE in a few year slavery wages, unskilled work labor would ruin brazil's economy. What a shame!! smilies/angry.gif
...
written by nenê, November 03, 2007
I meant the lack of slavery-like wages and semi or no-skilled jobs and work force would ruin Brazil's economy due to small birthrates.
jussara
written by Shelly, November 03, 2007
Have you actually listened to the music in Brazil these days? Full of bad language, slangs that glorify the life of the gangsters. A true shame! I am all for cultural expression, but the stuff playing on clubs these days ( in Brazil) doesn't not represent culture. In my opinion, is all about money. I agree, we need a comprehensive plan, women need to know that it is better to prevent than deal with the consequences. However, as I have done plenty of community work, I could see that we would have a problem teaching these people how to take a contraceptive pill. To begin with, they need to know how to read, process and assimilate the information given to them. We need to provide injection (some contraceptives can be given as IM), these are usually more expensive and it requires hygene practices, which we lack at public hospitals. It all boils down to education. We can all try to find a band-aid solution, but education is key.
nene' shell - you haven't a clue
written by Simpleton, November 03, 2007
The education provida is on the rise, let us hope in time it will help some but don't pretend this is something that only favela dwellers and club party gals are subject to. The prospect of an unwanted child can and does happen to those that are not insufficiently educated, not without established families, not working in / connected to their local community, not without funds to buy the contraceptives you say the state is not making available in adequate quantities either free or at an appropriately low price. In a way Shell, you are right. It is all about money. The unavoided third child for a family that is beyond it's ability and age to do the best it can to try to provide for the first two is a problem. So, in some way, are the two out of eight siblings we took in to be as our own. Why were there eight you ask? Because the state does not have, should not have, and hopefully never will have the right to impose its will upon anyone in such matters (like in forcing tubes to be tied, IM injections, abortions). The concept that the state is being intentionally daggardly imposing its will in an opposite fashion forcing women to to have unwanted children to feed the no cost / low cost labor pool is ludicrous.
To Shelly and Jussara
written by Mario Silvio, November 03, 2007
"it seems that SULISTA people don't like BAHIA SHAME ON SULISTAS"

Jussara Lima,
Obviously I don't speak for all "sulistas(?)" but I don't like Bahia and everything it stands for and would like to ask you something: why should I like those who glorify laziness and live on taxes paid by hard working people from Sao Paulo to the south?

OK, Shelly,now I'll try to answer your questions:

"Where would you move them?"
I wouldn't move them anywhere, they should take care of themselves like others do.

" Away from their jobs? Are you saying that the poor have to move away from where they work, from where their kids go to school?"
I went to college in a University 20 kms from where I lived, my fist job was 23 km away from home, I know many people who live in another city and come to work in Sao Paulo everyday. Have you ever heard the word commuting? Do you know that most of the people who work in London, Paris and New York live very far from their job places? Why can't people in Rio or Sao Paulo do the same? As a matter of fact many do.

" Do you think that someone living in Rocinha and working for a family in Ipanema will move to such places?"
No, I don't think so, but than it's their choice and therefore tax money shouldn't be wasted on them.

"What should be done is give this places sanitation, schools, create good economic programs, more apprenticeship schools, decent wages, health care, etc. "
Give, give, give.... Do you know what's the problem with your solution? There wouldn't be enough givers.

"It all boils down to education. We can all try to find a band-aid solution, but education is key. "
Finally something we agree on: education, education and than more education. The first step should be stop selling the idea that going to school is a favor and should be rewarded. The money should be spent on EDUCATION and not food, clothing and "bolsas" like it's today.


...
written by nenê, November 03, 2007
EDUCATION WAS PROVIDED TO GERMAN SOCIETY AND ONLY THAT DID NOT AVOID AN ADOLF HITLER TO RISE, DOMINATE AND MANIPULATE HUNGRY GERMAN MEN AND WOMEN. HOW ABOUT JUST ONLY STICK TO BRAZIL'S CONSTITUTIONS AND PROVIDE WHAT IS LEGALLY UNDERSTOOD AS THEIR RIGHTS, TO BRAZILIAN SOCIETY? BRAZILIANS NEED TO DEVELOP TO A POINT THAT THEIR EDUCATIONS TELL THEM TO DEMAND THEIR RIGHTS.
...
written by nenê, November 03, 2007
OH OH DEMAND THEIR RIGHTS... THOSE ARE VERY DANGEROUS WORDS...
...
written by A Brazilian, November 03, 2007
HOW ABOUT JUST ONLY STICK TO BRAZIL'S CONSTITUTIONS AND PROVIDE WHAT IS LEGALLY UNDERSTOOD AS THEIR RIGHTS, TO BRAZILIAN SOCIETY? BRAZILIANS NEED TO DEVELOP TO A POINT THAT THEIR EDUCATIONS TELL THEM TO DEMAND THEIR RIGHTS.


The Brazilian constition says that the citizens are entitled to everything for free. If there were actually a way of paying for this big party where everyone can get theirs for free then Brazil would be a paradise on Earth where everyone wouldn't need to worry about competition or jobs or struggling for their survival.
...
written by Mario Silvio, November 03, 2007
" .... BRAZIL'S CONSTITUTIONS AND PROVIDE WHAT IS LEGALLY UNDERSTOOD AS THEIR RIGHTS,"
It would be mathematically impossible, so there is no point on discussing it.

"The Brazilian constition says that the citizens are entitled to everything for free. If there were actually a way of paying for this big party where everyone can get theirs for free then Brazil would be a paradise on Earth where everyone wouldn't need to worry about competition or jobs or struggling for their survival. "
And that would be wonderful, but there is only a very small problem as you stated.... IF THERE WERE A WAY
...
written by nenê, November 04, 2007
Are you telling me that IF Federal Constitution WAS Brazilian's prime reference, corrupt government employees and politians would be put in jail and enough money would be left to provide DECENT health assistance and education for people who maintain a family with a 300, 400, 500, 600 till 1000 REAIS wage IS EXACTLY TOO MUCH? Isn't it enough that your wives pay their nailpolishers and cleaning assistants a slave-like salary? Can't they have a decent, NOT LUXURIOUS, existance? No, that is too much for facists, no big news (roll eyes).
Mario Silvio/A Brazilian
written by João da Silva, November 04, 2007
If you both are taking about the 1988 constitution, I have a question: Was it necessary to write an ENTIRELY new constitution, when we could have amended the previous one?

I would like the opinions of you, since you both are discussing something very interesting. A couple of renowned jurists I know think it was NOT necessary to write a new one.
nene
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
The elite in Brazil wants to keep the masses subjugated, under their thumb. Why educate? They want to keep paying low wages, otherwise who is going to clean their homes? I want to see the "dondocas" do it here!
Simpleton
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
No, you don't have a clue.

Why were there eight you ask?

Because it is well documented that countries that have high TFR are those where its citizens are poor and uneducated. Also, people have 8 kids these days in order to have more family members working. We see this in Brazil, in Africa and in India. I agree with you, the State should not decide whether a woman has or not a child, but it should-as we have signed the UN Declaration of Human Rights, to give every person a chance to live freely. To me freedom is more than the corporeal liberty, but the freedom of mind, choice and knowing your rights and responsibilities as a citizen.

4. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Slavery is not just as the word implies, we have children working while they should be in school. If we weren't a corrupt country and society, we would have plenty for everyone.

5. No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Women and children are subject to cruelty and torture. The state's child protective service does abuse children, there were many cases portrayed on the news.

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

The State should protect its citizen and help create a sense of civil society, have you actually read Tocqueville, The Federalist n10, Adams Ferguson's, Locke's essays? Be careful, I am not for racial segregation, I see myself as a global citizen. But some of Tocqueville's idea on his essay Democracy in America are quite good.

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Brazil does not provide a good standard of living and adequate health and well being for its citizen. Period. It is not give, give, give, it is our right under our constitution. I am in total agreement with Joao, why re-write the whole thing when we could have saved money and included some amendments? You can usually tell if a country is serious by the number of times it has to re-write its constitution. This is a serious issue, not taken seriously in Brazil and Venezuela. I see a constitution as a "sacred" document and we are all too quick in Brazil to re-do it, because we don't like the style or the ideas of previous presidents. How many times have we re-written our constitution?

Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

Shall be compulsory, but do we have people checking to see if the kids go to school? Higher education is accessible if you have money to send you kid to private schools and preparatorios

I don't have a clue, think again!

Simpleton, it is not a matter of give, give, give. We should help those less fortunate, help them get on their own two feet. However, we are not giving the poor the right tools to set them free, to change how they are living today. Bolsa Familia should not be a permanent remedy, but a temporary fix. You know Lula bought the voters, it is not about helping the poor, it is all about self-gratification.
Mario Silvio
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
Do you know that most of the people who work in London, Paris and New York live very far from their job places? Why can't people in Rio or Sao Paulo do the same? As a matter of fact many do.

I have lived in New York and England. I lived 45 minutes from London and used public transportation. Always used the tube while living in England, New York and BUS in Rio. Here is difficult, VA is very "transportation unfriendly". Anyway, back to your question. I guess you think that we can just move people that have been living in Rocinha for the past 30 years away? You are out of touch, trying to compare London, Paris and New York to Rio is a joke. They are modern cities, built on a solid plan and are not seeing a influx of underskilled workers arriving every day. Get real! How many people are arriving everyday in Sao Paulo?
...
written by Rodolfo Dias, November 04, 2007

If you both are taking about the 1988 constitution, I have a question: Was it necessary to write an ENTIRELY new constitution, when we could have amended the previous one?


Because the previous Constitution was written in 1969, in the Militar Dictatorship, and it was treated as a scapegoat. In my opinion, all they needed to do was just to revoke that 1969's constitution and take back the democratic one written in 1946.
Rodolfo
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
Question for you , are you from Rio?
...
written by Rodolfo Dias, November 04, 2007
Nope, Shelly, I'm from Niteroi RJ - which is turning as dangerous as Rio too, unfortunately. smilies/sad.gif
OUR BAHIAN MONEY SHOULD STAY IN BAHIA, NOT GO TO SAMPA (VIA BRASILIA)
written by Jussara Lima, November 04, 2007
''Obviously I don't speak for all "sulistas(?)" but I don't like Bahia and everything it stands for and would like to ask you something: why should I like those who glorify laziness and live on taxes paid by hard working people from Sao Paulo to the south?''

but Brazilian government takes profit from Bahian turism and oil industry and with this money they can build more industries in Sao Paulo. OUR BAHIAN MONEY SHOULD STAY in BAHIA. CARIOCA money should stay in RIO. NO energy for nuclear power station in Angra to Ubatuba or Sao Sebastiao. You find your own way. smilies/grin.gif
Shelly
written by nenê, November 04, 2007
The elite in Brazil wants to keep the masses subjugated, under their thumb. Why educate? They want to keep paying low wages, otherwise who is going to clean their homes? I want to see the "dondocas" do it here!


Yep, é isso aí, you've got it right! It seems like justice is a bit too much for some people... Justice? That's luxury! The crap world goes round and round and it doesn't change, no matter what.

Very good asnwer to Simpleton, congrats.

You don't know what are you talking about
written by Mario Silvio, November 04, 2007
To Shelly,
"I guess you think that we can just move people that have been living in Rocinha for the past 30 years away? "
I don't think WE should move anyone. You and others are the ones who are complaining about the living conditions in Rocinha and that the government shoud do this and that, so I guess YOU think they should be moved to penthouses in Sao Conrado paied by our taxes of course.
"You are out of touch, trying to compare London, Paris and New York to Rio is a joke"
I never tried to compare Rio to anything, what I said is that millions of people all over the world spend hours everyday comuting. I did it many years. You failed to say why the favelados are entitled no to have to.

Btw, during the last years more people are LEAVING Sao Paulo than arriving. Get real, or at least updated.


To Jussara,

"but Brazilian government takes profit from Bahian turism and oil industry and with this money they can build more industries in Sao Paulo."
You are joking, right? When was is that the government build industries in Sao Paulo ????????? Sao Paulo wealth is due to the private sector (from the Matarazzos to the Ermirio de Moraes), it has always been. Here's an idea: let's see how much of the federal taxes are paid in Sao Paulo and how much of it is spent here. Last time I checked, it was more than 35% against 4%, get it? FOUR!Where do you think the rest is spended? Try Brasilia and the Northeast. How about Bahia, have you got the data?
Let alone people from other states coming to USP and Hospital das Clinicas.

"“OUR BAHIAN MONEY SHOULD STAY in BAHIA. CARIOCA money should stay in RIO“"
You got yourself a deal my dear. What a pity it's not to us to decide!

Have you ever heard of SUDENE?
...
written by João da Silva, November 04, 2007
"“OUR BAHIAN MONEY SHOULD STAY in BAHIA. CARIOCA money should stay in RIO“"


In fact, Bahia should declare independence and keep all its wealth and culture to itself and put an embargo on export of these wealth (as well as their politicians) to other states and countries.This way, it is bound to grow rapidly and join the first world reall soon. smilies/grin.gif
Jussara
written by nenê, November 04, 2007
Don't listen to them, they are just jealous that Bahians are much more integrated, funny, interesting, caring than these Paulistas and Rio Grandenses. These guys are so uninteresting and emotionally impaired, (many are reactionary, with dictatorial features) that their ladies need to be the sadisctic masters of their domésticas. You would be bored to death in those lands , or become a sadistic and depressive dondoca smilies/grin.gif
...
written by nenê, November 04, 2007
In time, I am paulista and LOVE Bahians. Brazil would be a TERRIBLe, depressive place without bahians. I'm not a AXE fan, what I like is the bahian people.
...
written by João da Silva, November 04, 2007
I'm not a AXE fan, what I like is the bahian people.


Gut.You better move to Bahia and enjoy the wealth generated by BA through Tourism.Never mind AXÉ. Keep yoor mind open. It may present you with plenty of businss opportunties.
See what I said?
written by nenê, November 04, 2007
I'm not a AXE fan, what I like is the bahian people.

Gut.You better move to Bahia and enjoy the wealth generated by BA through Tourism.Never mind AXÉ. Keep yoor mind open. It may present you with plenty of businss opportunties.


Gu You better move to Bahia and enjoy bla bla. Kleept your mind open. It may represent you with plenty of budass oputinities. DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am pretty sure now he is a southern Brazilian.
...
written by nenê, November 04, 2007
Your loura lady must be sadomizing your young girl at this moment. smilies/grin.gif
...
written by nenê, November 04, 2007
Oops... I meant being sadistic with her.Poor girl and genrrations are replaced smilies/grin.gif
Nené
written by João da Silva, November 04, 2007
I am pretty sure now he is a southern Brazilian.


You got it right.I am the reincarnation of Atilla, the Hun.

Your loura lady must be sadomizing your young girl at this moment.


You are absolutely hilarious, Nené. Where did you get this sense of humor from, Bahia? smilies/wink.gif
...
written by nenê, November 05, 2007
You make me sick in my stomach, you are like the dork you sound you are? Nossa, credo!! Deus me livre e me acompanhe. I guess i know how to sympathize with people, unlike you old metallic machines, this way I can predict how your wife bahaves at home... smilies/angry.gif
...
written by nenê, November 05, 2007
your too stupid to be funny Jomão da Selva. smilies/shocked.gif smilies/shocked.gif
...
written by João da Silva, November 05, 2007
your too stupid to be funny Jomão da Selva


You got it right again. I am stupid and I accept it.

What I resented was your intolerence towards AXÉ, the rich cultural symbol of Bahia. You are a racist pig, nené and you better accept and live with the fact smilies/grin.gif
Haha
written by A Brazilian, November 05, 2007
Brazil would be a TERRIBLe, depressive place without bahians.


I don't have anything against Bahia. What I am against is characterizing Brazil as Carnaval and other "afro" primitive customs alone. Braizl is majoritarian Catholic. We should accomplish more, much more. Carnaval is a bestial and primitive custom, along with the Candomblé and other primitive ghost religions. Have you ever witnessed that?
...
written by nenê, November 05, 2007
Jesus how come someone doesn't feel ashamed to be such a denier, being his remarks written online? We all know what type of person "thou" are (haha), but make an effort to understand first what being a racist means, if you insist on not knowing what is it.
...
written by João da Silva, November 05, 2007
Jesus how come someone doesn't feel ashamed to be such a denier, being his remarks written online?


Why should I feel ashamed to express my thoughts online or offline or though all lines? Nené, I think deep inside you are a reverse racist. In your anxiety to please the Bahianos, unwittingly you insulted their AXÉ, Candomblé,etc; and indirectly called me a southern redneck. Shame on you, Nené, I am disappointed in you smilies/cry.gif
Another sample of what I was saying
written by nenê, November 05, 2007
João besides a clown, a surviver, and a typical sulista, you are a phony functionally illiterate. Straight from Brazil's corrupt culture.
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written by João da Silva, November 05, 2007
João besides a clown, a surviver, and a typical sulista, you are a phony functionally illiterate. Straight from Brazil's corrupt culture.


Thanks
...
written by nenê, November 05, 2007
No problem.
nene: what's in a name.
written by aes, November 05, 2007
ne·ne (nn)
n.
A rare wild goose (Branta sandvicensis) of the Hawaiian Islands, having a grayish-brown body with a black face. Also called Hawaiian goose.
...
written by João da Silva, November 05, 2007
Also called Hawaiian goose.


I confirm that Nené= Hawaiian goose smilies/grin.gif
...
written by Mario Silvio, November 05, 2007
"they are just jealous that Bahians are much more integrated, funny, interesting"

The only thing I'm jealous of Bahia is they always had politicians and intelectuals who fought for their interests, while paulistas don't. They were able to convince some jerks (you can find some of them here) that the smell of urine you sense almost all over Salvador is a good thing,
Bahia is the most overrated concept I can think of.

"Brazil would be a TERRIBLe, depressive place without bahians"
May be so, but I'd love to give it a try!

Bahians (sic) were able to destroy the only economical asset they had, cocoa. They are proud of always being late, they promote laziness as a value, they would do whatever it takes to avoid working.

"You would be bored to death in those lands "
It depends on who you are. If your idea of fun is acting like a cave men, that's true.
More accurate description of the author ...
written by Macunaima, November 05, 2007
Janer Cristaldo holds a Ph.D. from University of Paris, Sorbonne, which he got with a federal studies grant paid for by the "communists" which he so loves to hate. He is a self-published author, translator (i.e.he can't find a regular job), lawyer (got a degree, never passed the bar), bar-room philosopher, self-published internet journalist and lives in São Paulo. Janer thinks that Brazil started going wrong when Princess Isabela freed the slaves. He is currently the president of the Reinaugurate African Servitude Society of São Paulo. His favorite hobby, when he can't get his maid to give him a blow-job, is masturbating to the "bag scenes" in Tropa de Elite. He likes to wear his "Capitão Nascimento" outfit that he picked up in a sex shop on Rua Augusta when he engages in these activities. Janer wants to be a death squad member when he grows up, as long as it doesn't involve anyone shooting BACK at him.
Your comment if not
written by Ric, November 05, 2007
Actually actionable is at the minimum unkind.

It's cold and cloudy here in Santa Barbara.

Sources here in California indicate that the price of napalm has risen considerably in the past few months. Just trying to help....
Ric
written by João da Silva, November 05, 2007
It's cold and cloudy here in Santa Barbara.


So is it in Southern Brazil.

Sources here in California indicate that the price of napalm has risen considerably in the past few months.


The rising prices are being noted and updated in our "Spreadsheet".

Just trying to help....


we always count on your help. While spending quality time in CA, please shop around for some F series fighters. We need to buy some at bargain prices. smilies/wink.gif

Enjoy your stay in CA
Macunaima
written by João da Silva, November 06, 2007
Janer Cristaldo holds a Ph.D. from University of Paris, Sorbonne, which he got with a federal studies grant paid for by the "communists" which he so loves to hate.


What was his doctoral degree about? Philosophy,Economics ,history, etc; I am sure the readers would be interested in knowing his specialty, especially when he wasted the tax payers money to go all the way to Paris. Clue us all in Macunaima.
All Praises Be
written by Simpleton, November 06, 2007
Nene'!! I liked your repost although it seemed you may have been intending to point negatively / derrogatorily at me in person at a couple of points vs those that don't give a paydu about the real people what have not. Give, give, give? The only one I can identify that has such perception / expectation is myself and I choose to do so (i.e. give) even if others don't or feel it is too much to ask, are too selfish, or think doing so is a waste. Yes, one must be a bit careful and judicious in what, where and how much to give. Without producing the golden egg laid by the goose up front, your government won't let me even try to contribute and make as best as I am able all that you have defined as needed, good, beneficial in the long run for people what have not. One has to start somewhere. One has to start small. Near term, only a few may benefit (and I not among them). We are in total agreement as to what that / those things are needed but when you only have one golden egg to give, cracking it in half to at least put some of it where it should rightfully go is not possible. Do they not allow this / insist of taking more than half because it is a dangerous idea that might spread?? I think now the chorus chimes in and sings the ch.C. song.
Hmm...
written by Brazilian dude, November 08, 2007
interesting discussion.The problem is multifaceted, and the solution must also be that way.
But coddling drug users and bandits alike won't help.That's a fact.
Coddling?
written by Macunaima, November 08, 2007
Coddling?

Now there's an odd adjective for a 7.62mm bullet through the forehead.

Brazilian dude, whether or not YOU smoke marijuana, do you really, seriously think it should be a capital offence? Because that's what guys like Janer are proposing.
Brazilian Dude
written by João da Silva, November 08, 2007
Brazilian dude, whether or not YOU smoke marijuana, do you really, seriously think it should be a capital offence? Because that's what guys like Janer are proposing.


Your comments are welcome on this issue,as usual.Who is this Janer? We need a complete report on this fella, who talks through his ass.

BTW, where did u go this time, Haiti?
Lmao de Silver AWAY!
written by Simpleton, November 09, 2007
"Who is this Janer? We need a complete report on this fella, who talks through his ass." See first name of author (if your new lenses will allow such focus OM!)
Simpleton
written by João da Silva, November 09, 2007
See first name of author (if your new lenses will allow such focus OM!)



You are our ally or adversary? BTW, I didnt have to change the lenses,because my eye sight is still good. I saved money by not changing the lenses. I bet you approve of my cost cutting measures smilies/grin.gif

I am seriously thinking of changing my name to "Humbleton". What do you think about it?

If you let me express my opinion freely, this "Janer" seems to be a "Pavão"
Many Issues...
written by Coutch, November 09, 2007
First off, while I agree with the notion that a drug trade in any community produces a criminal element, I do not agree that the legalization of drugs is a cure. In the short term, legalization will merely lead to the "profits changing hands" as a previous poster eluded to.

More than that, legalization would translate to the fast-forwarding of the research and development process of drugs--which in turn would lead to more efficent production process and the creation of more powerful drugs at cheaper prices. The combination of these factors would make legalized drugs available to a wider contingency of people. And remember, we can fool ourselves into thinking that these companies would be benevolent and out to save the world, but the reality is that when it comes to economics and decision-making: money and interest groups do the walking, while good intentions (that pave the road to hell), do the talking.
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written by aes, November 09, 2007
Tobacco has been engineered for greater potency and addiction.

The decriminalization of alcohol led to the demise of organized crime. Use did not increase and a plague of alcoholism did not manifest. Decriminalize narcotics and the profit is eliminated from them. People will use narcotics regardless of laws. There are pleanty of feel good pharmaceutical narcotics. The industry does not have to re potency narcotics. Inorder to sell legally the drugs have to be licensed. There are more people killed and lives ruined by the criminality and illegaity of drugs than all the damage from mere usage. Drug prosecution is a buisiness, prisons are a business. The pharmaceutical industry has a vested interest in controlling the drugs that are available. When Canabis was made illegal it was the liquor industry that was the cause of it. They wanted the blacks to buy gin and the canabis was free by the road. It was not for the benefit of the people that these laws are fabricated, but the benefit of vested interests.
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written by aes, November 09, 2007



Reinarman, Craig (2000), The Dutch example shows that liberal drug laws can be beneficial. In: Scott Barbour (Ed.), Drug Legalization: Current Controversies. San Diego: Greenhaven Press. pp. 102-108.
© Copyright 1999, 2000 Craig Reinarman. All rights reserved. Reprinted with permission from the author and the publisher.
[PDF]

The Dutch example shows that liberal drug laws can be beneficial
Subtitle
Craig Reinarman
In 1972, after an exhaustive study by a team of top experts, President Richard Nixon's hand-picked National Commission on Marijuana and Drug Abuse recommended decriminalization of marijuana. Five years later, President Jimmy Carter and many of his top cabinet officials made the same recommendation to Congress. Both the Commission and the Carter administration felt that the "cure" of imprisonment was worse than the "disease" of marijuana use. U.S. drug control officials argued strenuously that Congress should ignore such recommendations, which it did.

At about the same time, however, the Dutch government's own national commission completed its study of the risks of marijuana. The Dutch Commission also concluded that it made no sense to send people to prison for personal possession and use, so Dutch officials designed a policy that first tolerated and later regulated sales of small amounts of marijuana.

Denouncing the Dutch
Since then, U.S. drug control officials have denounced Dutch drug policy as if it were the devil himself. One former U.S. Drug Czar claimed that all the Dutch youth in Amsterdam's Vondel Park were "stoned zombies." Another said "you can't walk down the street in Amsterdam without tripping over junkies." In the Summer of 1998, however, one such denouncement turned into a small scandal. The first part of this chapter examines this incident as a window on the politics of drug policy. The second part offers a more general analysis of why U.S. drug control officials seem to be so threatened by the Dutch example.

In early July, the U.S. Drug Czar, General Barry McCaffrey, announced that he would soon go on a "fact finding tour" of the Netherlands to learn first hand about its drug policy. He quickly made it clear, however, that he would be bringing his own facts. Before he ever left home, McCaffrey denounced the Dutch approach to drugs as "an unmitigated disaster" (CNN, July 9, 199smilies/cool.gif. If he had let it go at that, the General might have avoided international embarrassment for himself and the Clinton administration. But he proceeded to make claims about drugs and crime in the Netherlands that were incorrect and insulting. Dutch officials and journalists immediately caught him with his evidentiary pants down and publicly rebutted his false charges.

False Claims
McCaffrey asserted that drug abuse problems in The Netherlands are "enormous" (Associated Press, July 13, 199smilies/cool.gif. In fact, the Dutch have no more drug problems than most neighboring countries which do not have "liberal" drug policies. Further, by virtually all measures the Dutch have less drug use and abuse than the U.S. — from a lower rate of marijuana use among teens to a lower rate of heroin addiction among adults

...
written by A Brazilian, November 09, 2007
It would be ironic if such drugs were legalized because of all the restrictions set to tobacco companies and users allegedly because tobacco causes addiction and health problems, incurring in greater health care expenses, either for the individual or for the government depending on the case or on the country. Legalizing even stronger drugs seems to be a clear contradiction of the current trend against tobacco or alcohol.

Next step: marijuana addicts suing drug dealears because they have become... guess what... addicts. Hahaha.
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written by aes, November 10, 2007
gangsterism and anarchy is the terminal illness. the parasite is the illicit drug trade. Kill the 'illicit' and the parasite dies. And with its death the murder, the crime, the fear, the utter rape of millions of people made victims of this nerfarious tic ends. And further, by virtually all measures the Dutch have less drug use and abuse than the U.S. — from a lower rate of marijuana use among teens to a lower rate of heroin addiction among adults.


...
written by aes, November 10, 2007
there should be gestalt drugs. drugs that enable you to see within a thing. more importantly seeing a way out of a thing drugs that teach perspective, concections eveloutionary pharmacolog


So were going somewhere or how to be
written by Simpleton, November 10, 2007
Yes aes, in a way it all has to do with the illicitness, illegality, and or profit / mark ups there from. Take the tabu or tambu concept out of things and all of a sudden you have a (young) culture facing nothing but the human side of things and choosing not to be over taken by it. I saw a heart breaking picture once of a good friend that had been shipped stateside to get an education at the tender age of sixteen and a half or seventeen all because her rich parents wanted her the hel_ away from her 30 year old junkie suica boyfriend. The streets of Amsterdam never looked so apaulling to me. There on the pavement on a decent looking street in broad daylight lied an otherwise decent sole, tall, blond, slender in the destined to have a decent shot at being great in the modeling world type young woman deeply in the throws of withdrawls clenching the buttend of something that appeared to be hand rolled. I prefer to remember her like the mornings we nude sunbathed together alone (as no one else would have understood), napping together on her bed in the dorms with not much more on till her roomy flicked the key in the door, skinny dipping under the moon at midnight with her Italiano friend from one floor down and others (excluding the Italiano's twin brother of course, he couldn't have handled it), the clamping of both of their hands across my mouth and both of my arms across my stomache to try to keep the uncontrollable belly laugh from errupting from me when a fourth girl from down the hall (who also wasn't from the uninhibited midnight splash clube) came in in her bathrobe, curlers and toothbrush and paste in hand wilst the three of us were rotating about stark naked to cycle through the hot stream of the single shower head to both try to warm up and cleanse the lake smell off. All this and never once having much of a care, inhibitions, biases nor intimacies of a sexual nature betwinxed us all (except for the Italiano who furtively curious with glances down there at she and me and halfway covered her chest with her arms most of the time and was undoubtedly still a virgin). Innocence, exposure, accessibility, concealment, "experienced" in the Jimmy H sense, availability, affordability, etc., etc., none of these necessarily drive one person to do or not do that which others would - even if to their own detriment.

Joao, of course I'm totally for you and against you - it is my nature to be balanced. Here for you to see more clearly, I've started at the top and perhaps your hereditarily un-age influenced eye sight can possibly read the fine print and or each word on each line (or between the lines snorted by the extrangeiros on holiday):
"There's a Cure for Brazil's Slums. It's Called Napalm
Written by Janer Cristaldo"

Who is this Janer fellow? Call him for what you wish. You can be Humbolton all you wish if it pleases you (although I think some may think that's some kind of squid or other rather sucessfully aggressive sea creature). What name would ch.C crown you with fair sir? Although E.Umalucco o N.Aomaraja fit me only Simpleton shall I be since ch.C dubbed it to be.


AES II or who?
written by Simpleton, November 10, 2007
"there should be gestalt drugs. drugs that enable you to see within a thing. more importantly seeing a way out of a thing drugs that teach perspective, concections eveloutionary pharmacolog"

You do understand that such things already exist right? It's naturally occuring / naturally produced within about 3 percent of the population worldwide albeit in minute quantities, not on a continous basis and not readily exportable. I wouldn't suggest the researchers stop their effort to preserve and study the Amazonian rainforest's biodiversity in hopes of finding what does what and what can help cure or improve whatever to take up pursuit of this. I'd hate to see what would happen to that 3 percent while being turned in to "good guy producing factory"s to justify providing state sponsored injections for those responsible for counterbalancing the "bad guy producing factory"s. That would be too Solent Green-ish from my perspective. If it has to be done for the benefit of all (vs only the kingpins) then I'd suggest everyone agree to limit it and only "process" the top 20 percent causing 80 percent of the problems that ch.C has identified and forrest would be happy to mark. If we can assume the 3 percent "with" gustalt / gustalt enablers are equally distributed that leaves you with an absolute max yield factor 0.6 percent. Still better than one in a million and it eliminates 80 percent of the problems as a beneficial side effect. What's the spread say?
Ode to Owsley simply put sayest the spread.
written by aes, November 10, 2007
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern."
...
written by A Brazilian, November 10, 2007
this and never once having much of a care, inhibitions, biases nor intimacies of a sexual nature betwinxed us all


I wouldn't let my kids get near you.

Drugs should remain illegal
written by A Brazilian, November 10, 2007
Homicides are illegal and they still happen. Should we legalize homicide and let people use their judgement? Drugs affect not only the person herself but the society around, either pragmatically or in terms of human misery. The children use drugs despite of the fact of being illegal because nowadays they lack values, it's forbidden to forbid and impose limits (for some). Alcohol and tobacco already do it! Why should we have even more drugs to cause damage to our societies?

As for Holland, I have heard otherwise from researchers of the area in a debate of legalization that occurred once. But AES fished the first article he could find on Google.

I guess you have all smoked too much and that affected your judgement.
...
written by João da Silva, November 10, 2007
I wouldn't let my kids get near you.


That was a good one, "A Brazilian" smilies/grin.gif
A. Brazilian
written by aes, November 10, 2007
The problem is crime not drugs in Brazil. There are many solutions to a problem. Sometimes you have to amp**ate the gangrenous leg to save the body politic. It is counter intuitive to many that in decriminilizing marajuana and other 'soft' drugs the problem of violence and gangsterism is provided a solution. You are still left with addicts but with out the gangsterism. Check the facts regarding drug addiction in Holland. There are less addicts than in the U.S. Pick any research paper you wish from any source you wish. We are not interested in solving the problems of addiction, which is multi faceted, but we are interested in solving the current state of affairs, of murder, lawlessness and a pervasive fear and violence that permeates the city. Take the profit out of crime and instead of criminals and junkies, you are merely left with the addicted. That problem is more easily addressed after the smoke of gunfire has cleared the air, and the mirrors of vested interests have been shattered.
AES
written by João da Silva, November 10, 2007
That problem is more easily addressed after the smoke of gunfire has cleared the air, and the mirrors of vested interests have been shattered.


Talking about vested interests, wasn't how the Kennedy clan made money during the prohibition days, smuggling liquor from Canada?

One thing I noticed during my travels. In U.S., Brazil and many South American countries, you can buy liquor in Super Markets. Not in Canada, Australia, etc;

My question: Are you proposing that the sale of drugs is legalized both in U.S and Brazil, with some sort of control?
...
written by aes, November 10, 2007
The purchase for consumption is decriminalized. There are minimum fines and would be modeled after the Netherlands. You could decriminalize the whole thing and prosecute the people distributing with tax evasion or operating without a liscense. Once there is no longer this rampant fear among users of arrest and incarceration, the price of the contraband falls and with it the incentive.

Yeh the Kennedy's made all their money in the bootlegging business. They were in bed with the Mafia and the old adage that the sins of the father shall fall on the generations of their children has truly proven itself. Their was a lack of character in many in that family, exhibiting bad judgment and reckless endangerment. Could be a genetic trait passed down. Even a gangster can be educated and charming.
...
written by A Brazilian, November 10, 2007
The problem is crime not drugs in Brazil.


The problem of crime is the ineffective combat to it and the perception that the crime pays off that comes with the impunity. Are drugs a natural disposition of man? No, if it were then we would have been born with it.

The main problem is that criminals are criminals. Would they stop being criminals in order to be something honest just because the drug is legalized? The answer is no.
...
written by aes, November 11, 2007
Psychotropic drugs occur naturally and all cultures are involved with them from the neolithic rites of the cult of caves to the shamans of the Amazon and Papua New Guinea. Animals seek out particular herbs for particular effect ie a lemor that excites a millipede to produce a neuro toxic defense that has a eurphoric effects on the lemur, he must gently bite the millipede causing it to release the chemical and then rubs it over his body into his fur noticably altering his consciousness. Animals seek fruits that naturally ferment and upon injestion they become drunk. It is the natural state of things to enjoy a variety of plant chemicals by animals. It is not the natural state of things for one monkey to legislate which plants one monkey can eat and which one monkey cannot. The consequence of interferring with this basic tenet of nature is the favelian culture of drug based criminality. Because drugs are illegal their is exhorbedant profit, because of the profit it is a self feeding criminal enterprise without possible end. The more money that is amassed the greater the political influence. The greater the political influence the greater the danger to the society at large. It is the criminal enterprise that matasticises into the whole body of the society, not the individual addict whose only terminal infection is his own.
AES
written by João da Silva, November 11, 2007
The greater the political influence the greater the danger to the society at large. It is the criminal enterprise that matasticises into the whole body of the society, not the individual addict whose only terminal infection is his own.


You may have a point here.However, I would like the opinions of our other compatriots in this forum. This issue becomes more interesting, considering that U.S is the first largest market for illegal drugs and Brazil is the second one.I was surprised when I read a couple of years ago that 25% of the inmates in jails in U.S consist of people who were caught with very small amount of illegal drugs. I dont know how far it is true, but I still think that the distribution of drugs is profitable to big fishes and the ones in the Favelas are just "Laranjas" and the John Doe who uses them gets thrown into jail.


...
written by A Brazilian, November 11, 2007
If the crime were fought effectively there wouldn't be a crime problem. The crime happens because the individual thinks he can get away with it, therefore the prospect of profit outweight the risks.

And no. Pre-historic tribes doesn't prove that drugs are natural diposition of man. When you were a baby you used to s**t in your pants and your mother would clean it. Does it prove that a 40 year old man will s**t in his pants? Those examples of yours are from the infancy of mankind, we have gotten past that, haven't we?
A. Brazilian: bulls**t!
written by Macunaima, November 12, 2007
Homicides are illegal and they still happen. Should we legalize homicide and let people use their judgement?

Comparing legalized drug use to murder is absolutely ridiculous and the kind of comment one would expect to hear out of the mouth of a rabid ideologue. If you think that the social consequences of lighting up a joint and killing someone are essentially the same, then you have an ethical problem that borders on sociopathy, my friend. Please unstick your head: it seems to be stuck somewhere unhealthy.

Drugs affect not only the person herself but the society around, either pragmatically or in terms of human misery.

Bulls**t. The BIGGEST drug out there today in terms of causing human misery is booze: a factor in 80% of violent crime in both the U.S. and Brazil. Now you tell me, exactly, how marijuana is causinghuman misery and destroying society? Because I simply do not see it. And btw, bull me no s**t about it being a "gateway drug". BOOZE is the biggest gatewya drug of all, but our society seems to live OK with it.

The children use drugs despite of the fact of being illegal because nowadays they lack values, it's forbidden to forbid and impose limits (for some).

Bulls**t again. Just because children lack YOUR values doesn't mean they lack values. Kids are pretty swift on the uptake and most of them can suss right out that a person who thinks somking a joint and murder are equivalent has very little that's useful to teach about "values". Wanna know why kids aren't listening to you? Check their bulls**t meters: you're probably reading pretty high on most.

Alcohol and tobacco already do it! Why should we have even more drugs to cause damage to our societies?

Because pot does NOT cause aggressive behavior, like booze, and it is not physically addictive, like booze and tobacco. There is very, very little "damage" pot can do. We can argue about coke, but for you to claim that pot is a threat to society is simply ludicrous. White sugar is probably a bigger health threat to our society.

And no. Pre-historic tribes doesn't prove that drugs are natural diposition of man. When you were a baby you used to s**t in your pants and your mother would clean it. Does it prove that a 40 year old man will s**t in his pants?

Bulls**t once again. Even if you believe in social evolution, there is no direct connection between individual aging and social evolution. "Pre-historic tribes" cannot be remotely compared to babies s**tting their daipers and only an ignorant man or a racist would believe that was so.

And the point, A Brazilian, is that EVERY human culture, EVERYWHERE, ANY TIME, has used psychotropic chemicals. So yes, insofar as any human cultural behavior can be considered "natural", drug use is. It is a transcultural, transhistoric phenomenon of amazing depth and breadth.
...
written by aes, November 12, 2007
We have 'got' passed a lot of things. One of the things we have 'got' passed is living our lives. We are groomed to be cogs in a societal machine that we do not ask to participate in, we are told. When to get up, where to go, what to do, what to say, how to say it and in general how to obey. This is not life. I once owned outright 100 acers of woods and streams, dear and quail, fish. I woke when I wanted, did what I wanted and observed the automatons in their cars making their rounds of daily obedience. Primitive man today spends less time getting the things he needs to live in less time than modern man. Primitive man is connected to the biosphere that supports him, he injests mushrooms, cocoa, rye ergot inorder to penetrate deeper into the mysteries of the biosphere, hightened senses, hightened perception hightened synthesis of consciousness. Modern man exists outside the biosphere, he thinks he is, he no longer lives in harmony with the source of his life and to use your word 's**ts' where he eats. Modern man is out of phase with his biosphere. He spends his life in a cave for a bag of tokens defining his worth. His worth is defined outside himself, he is told what he is what is value has been, what the meanging of his life has been. Primitive man knows intuitively what the meaing of his life is, he is part of the biosphere he is not riding on the back of it he is in harmony with it. You are under the asumption 'that infancy of mankind, we have gotten past that, haven't we?' No we have not, we only think we have. This thinking that we are apart from the biosphere is the dellusion, the cause of all the woes in the world, all the miseries, all the existential angst. Modern man is out of step with his biologic, animal self. Modern man is out of sync with the very systems that support his life. He poisons the air, the water the food in his modernism. What 'primitive man' as you euphamistically condescend to call them does this? Natural man seeks to live, modern man seeks to obey. Natural man seeks meaning, connection. Modern man seeks abstracts, ie money, ownership. He spends his life acquiring things. And in the end looses his life in the meaningless life of acquizition.
Can Caverns Cave Out?
written by Simpleton, November 12, 2007
"Talking about vested interests, wasn't how the Kennedy clan made money during the prohibition days, smuggling liquor from Canada?" At least my granddad had a decent paying hardworking type job from time to time (rowing the boats loaded with barrels).

"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern." Beautiful! So you are saying sometimes a bunker buster has it's value - creating a few more chinks and cracks from which those who have closed themselves within can see things more like it is than what they have falsely focused it to appear to be with their very narrow and pointed views?

Sorry to hear Abe has chosen to cloistered her kids within her glass house. Bet they've never even had a chance to run around the back yard with the neighbor kids spraying each other with the garden hose, make mud pies, walk the trails through the forest on a moonless night with nary a flashlight. Very very dangerous world out there indeed. Why limit yourself and live covered up / draped in your snooty cloak? What have you done, where have you gone, beyond words is there anything you have really truely contributed to anyone in need or beneath your high stature? Only verbal feints and charades, no real nor deep connection / sense of humanity developed from direct contact, no selfless desire that drives you to action to really connect and help. Academics so'? No matter which way is chosen to try to combat these things just remember efforts to try to legislate things into being and or make them not exist through enforcement is has does and will always fail.

...
written by Shelly, November 12, 2007
I was surprised when I read a couple of years ago that 25% of the inmates in jails in U.S consist of people who were caught with very small amount of illegal drugs. I don’t know how far it is true. No, you are right. On my way to work this week, listened to Democracy now and a panel of lawyers and high officials in D.C. said the same thing. I think the number was a little higher than 25%, but I will check for you. If you are caught with small amount you will serve more time than other types of crime. Most are blacks from inner cities; they were arguing that the "white middle-class" kids do less time.
...
written by Shelly, November 12, 2007
Actually, a study found (mentioned by the panel) that there are more black man in jail than in college. I rather legalize and propose a program similar to the Netherlands. AES is absolutely right; there are more drug users here in the US than in the Netherlands. However, the Dutch do provide excellent health care; will Brazil provide drug rehabilitation programs? Nope. Then what is the point in legalizing the drugs, just for money? We'll never be able to stop crime, but we can at least help the drug addicts get out of it. And by the way, for those of you thinking that AES just posted something "out of google", here it is a better statistics for you. I have posted this before, here we go again. The numbers speak for themselves!
...
written by Shelly, November 12, 2007
Go to cedro-uva.org
Look under stats NL and USA
...
written by Shelly, November 12, 2007
http://www.dmiblog.com/archive...ana_1.html
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/252/jpistudy.shtml
macunaima
written by Shelly, November 12, 2007
You are correct. tobacco is the worst legal drug out there. It is harder for someone to quit smoking than use soft or harder drugs. Fact is booze and tobacco are two legal drugs being used by younger children. Also, there are others like snorting the gas from canisters (a kid in a local school I used to work burned himself while doing it) and over-the-counter medication. Reality is, the kids in school do know who the drug dealer is and most children are doing fine and choose not to use drugs.

My uncle used to be a cocaine addict, I saw what it did to our relatives and family members. He went through a divorce, went to jail and lost his job. Today, thanks to the rehabilitation program, he has a job and turned himself around. Addiction is a psychological and physiological problem, the jail system and current laws do ZERO to help people get on the feet. We need to treat drug addicts with love and care. They need societies support, otherwise more will go back to old habits. Obviously, we won't be able to save the world, but saving one life is worthwhile to me.
Macunaima
written by coutch, November 12, 2007
Macunaima, you are either naive or you're missing the point completely. The context of this discourse is much broader than just your right to smoke a joint. It's about the drug supply-chain and how it negatively affects the misery people experience living in the favelas of Brazil.

The drug trade deals with economies of scale, no pun intended, not one, two, three-man operations. The drug trade is responsible for the growing, processing, and sales of mass-quantities of heroin and cocaine, and if you think that it doesn't contribute to misery--you're dead wrong.

Or do I have it wrong...are you seriously trying to argue that if pot were legal, misery and poverty would go away? Of course not.

Let's also remember that the drug trade, in this context, is in business to sell mass amounts of cocaine and heroin because these drugs are the money makers.
Coutch
written by João da Silva, November 12, 2007
Let's also remember that the drug trade, in this context, is in business to sell mass amounts of cocaine and heroin because these drugs are the money makers


It is a kind of coincidence that a) I watched a TV program last night about drugs being smuggled from Paraguay into Dourados, Brazil to be distributed to all states in this country. b) I read an article titled "Hugo Chavez's criminal paradise c) You make these comments d) Shelly´s question about whether we have an adequate rehabilitation program.

In order to understand the profitability of drug trade, I post the link:

http://www.latimes.com/news/pr...ws-comment

When Hugo is rolling in money with his oil exports, why is he encouraging this trade?
Couch sez...
written by Macunaima, November 13, 2007
Macunaima, you are either naive or you're missing the point completely. The context of this discourse is much broader than just your right to smoke a joint. It's about the drug supply-chain and how it negatively affects the misery people experience living in the favelas of Brazil.

How is the drug supply chain increasing the misery of living in the favelas? The WAR on drugs is doing that, son. Pot doesn't create violence and misery: drug gangs and their incessant war with each other and BOPE creates violence and misery. Legalize pot and a good portion of that will disappear.

When people like you claim that "drugs create violence", you're a bit like an arsonist who tosses a molotov c**ktail onto the wooden roof of a house who then says "See? Now that wouldn't have happened if they hadn't built the house with a wooden roof."

Marijuana does not create appreciable ammounts of violence. It is illegal. Booze, which DOES create appreciable ammounts of violence is perfectly legal. So please do not tell me how I'm naive, Couch: you can't even discern cause and effect in the Drug War.

As for arguing that legalizing pot makes misery go away, who's arguing that? Legalizing pot will make much of the violence and misery CAUSED BY THE DRUG WAR go away. Social exclusion will still be there.

Now, if you'd like to step outside of the fantasy world of anti-drug rhetoric and show us how´pot CEONCRETELY AND DIRECTLY causes misery, I'd love to see your logic. But so far, all I've seen is people like you claiming that pot causes violence because we have to repress it, which is a bit like a thief claiming that wealth causes crime because it forces him to steal.
Oh my God! Hippies!
written by A Brazilian, November 13, 2007
Comparing legalized drug use to murder is absolutely ridiculous and the kind of comment one would expect to hear out of the mouth of a rabid ideologue. If you think that the social consequences of lighting up a joint and killing someone are essentially the same, then you have an ethical problem that borders on sociopathy, my friend.


I am not your friend and the comparison was perfectly valid given the argument used by AES. Both activities are considered crime, but AES wrote that the cost of fighting drugs was too high and if we just legalized them then all problems would go away, both the crime and the cost of fighting it. Should we use the same rationale for other types of crimes? If you don't like murder then replace it by rape of anything else you would like, the result is the same. The cost of fighting crime is not a valid reason.

Bulls**t. The BIGGEST drug out there today in terms of causing human misery is booze


Two things. First this is misery and all drugs, including marijuana, cause it:

My uncle used to be a cocaine addict, I saw what it did to our relatives and family members. He went through a divorce, went to jail and lost his job


As you see here it didn't only cause a problem to his family, but to the society as a whole. What would be of our country if the majority of people reached this state? It's not only cocaine, but the addicts of all kinds of drug. We have a problem already with alcohol and tobacco, it's logical to conclude that a greater availability of drugs would cause an even greater problem.

Second, the problem of alcoholism exists despite the fact that alcohol is legal. Do you think that drug problems would disappear just by legalizing them? For the society, thinking in terms of future, this would be a catastrophe.

Just because children lack YOUR values doesn't mean they lack values


There's no such thing as relativism and the truth is the ultimate goal. if we are in the pursue of the truth then we are on the path to the most correct values. The problem is that today relativism prevails, therefore the notion that the truth is only the average of all opinions and not something verifiable as a fact per se is what causes these incorrect values.

They do lack values, they have got only opinions. That's the origin of such tendencies towards crime.

There is very, very little "damage" pot can do.


The very fanatic and emotional statements you have written so far regarding drugs and your rabid response for the possibility of not being allowed to smoke pot makes me believe that you are already an addict and the prospect of living a day without it would cause you a great pain.

Even if you believe in social evolution, there is no direct connection between individual aging and social evolution. "Pre-historic tribes" cannot be remotely compared to babies s**tting their daipers and only an ignorant man or a racist would believe that was so.


The analogy is correct. In the past the humanity was ignorant about how nature worked and today we are less ignorant. This knowledge affected the way we live profoundly, so we can say that there was evolution and that affects directly the culture.

Treating pre-historic tribes, who lacked even this amazing technology called alphabet that allows us to communicate ideas, as some sort of "golden age" or examples of how we should live is just like treating a few months old baby as a model for 40 years old man.

In the past there's only primitiveness. We must employ the muscle that matter and build a better future instead of time and neurones with substances that some day in the past might have been used for religious rituals.

So yes, insofar as any human cultural behavior can be considered "natural", drug use is. It is a transcultural, transhistoric phenomenon of amazing depth and breadth.


Only if you ignore levels of knowledge of different cultures. Primitive cultures can't be compared to today's culture.
...
written by A Brazilian, November 13, 2007
How is the drug supply chain increasing the misery of living in the favelas? The WAR on drugs is doing that


The control by criminals over entire favelas? Death and intimidation? Problems caused by the consumption of drugs? The perception that working is futile and crime is easier? A poverty culture? There are many others that affect the entire society, such as violence.

What you say makes no sense at all.

Legalize pot and a good portion of that will disappear.


Do you really think that criminals would stop being criminals and start sending out resumés if drugs were legalized? They are criminals not because drugs are illegal, but because they don't have values and they think that crime is an easier way. After all, if criminals like difficulty things they woundn't be criminals.
A Brazilian: Dont get your panties in a twist.
written by aes, November 13, 2007
"it's logical to conclude that a greater availability of drugs would cause an even greater problem."

Unfortunately the science does not support the logic of your conclusion.

"In fact, the Dutch have no more drug problems than most neighboring countries which do not have "liberal" drug policies. Further, by virtually all measures the Dutch have less drug use and abuse than the U.S. — from a lower rate of marijuana use among teens to a lower rate of heroin addiction among adults"

...
written by A Brazilian, November 13, 2007
Primitive man knows intuitively what the meaing of his life is


Primitive men were little more than apes, and didn't take as many baths as they should. In the past there's only misery, there never was a "golden age". The golden age is still to come and will be built by ourselves.
...
written by A Brazilian, November 13, 2007
Unfortunately the science does not support the logic of your conclusion


Fortunately this is not science, only propaganda.
A. Brazilian: festidiously clean
written by aes, November 13, 2007
hmm. Your mind apparently is made up, It is not effected by facts. "Fortunately this is not science, only propaganda." Prove that the Netherlands has a higher problem of drug abuse. Give any statistical analysis that supports your conclusion.

"Primitive men were little more than apes, and didn't take as many baths as they should." It should be primitive men ARE, since primitive man is alive and well in the Amazon and in Africa and the South Pacific islands and atolls and they do bathe regularly. Your knowledge of anthropology is equal to your knowledge of drug addiction, its history, causes and effects.
A. Brazilian
written by aes, November 13, 2007
The Netherlands and the United States: A Comparison

The Netherlands follows a policy of separating the market for illicit drugs. Cannabis is primarily purchased through coffee shops. Coffee shops offer no or few possibilities for purchasing illicit drugs other than cannabis. Thus The Netherlands achieve a separation of the soft drug market from the hard drugs market - and separation of the 'acceptable risk' drug user from the 'unacceptable risk' drug user.

Source: Abraham, Manja D., University of Amsterdam, Centre for Drug Research, Places of Drug Purchase in The Netherlands (Amsterdam: University of Amsterdam, September 1999), pp. 1-5.


Comparing Important Drug and Violence Indicators
Social Indicator Comparison Year USA Netherlands
Lifetime prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12 ) 2001 36.9% 1 17.0% 2
Past month prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12 ) 2001 5.4% 1 3.0% 2
Lifetime prevalence of heroin use (ages 12 ) 2001 1.4% 1 0.4% 2
Incarceration Rate per 100,000 population 2002 701 3 100 4
Per capita spending on criminal justice system (in Euros) 1998 €379 5 €223 5
Homicide rate per 100,000 population Average 1999-2001 5.56 6 1.51 6


Source 1: US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, National Household Survey on Drug Abuse: Volume I. Summary of National Findings (Washington, DC: HHS, August 2002), p. 109, Table H.1.

Source 2: Trimbos Institute, "Report to the EMCDDA by the Reitox National Focal Point, The Netherlands Drug Situation 2002" (Lisboa, Portugal: European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction, Nov. 2002), p. 28, Table 2.1.

Source 3: Walmsley, Roy, "World Prison Population List (fifth edition) (London, England: Research, Development and Statistics Directorate of the Home Office), Dec. 2003, p. 3, Table 2.

Source 4: Walmsley, Roy, "World Prison Population List (fifth edition) (London, England: Research, Development and Statistics Directorate of the Home Office), Dec. 2003, p. 5, Table 4.

Source 5: van Dijk, Frans & Jaap de Waard, "Legal infrastructure of the Netherlands in international perspective: Crime control" (Netherlands: Ministry of Justice, June 2000), p. 9, Table S.13.

Source 6: Barclay, Gordon, Cynthia Tavares, Sally Kenny, Arsalaan Siddique & Emma Wilby, "International comparisons of criminal justice statistics 2001," Issue 12/03 (London, England: Home Office Research, Development & Statistics Directorate, October 2003), p. 10, Table 1.1.


"There were 2.4 drug-related deaths per million inhabitants in the Netherlands in 1995. In France this figure was 9.5, in Germany 20, in Sweden 23.5 and in Spain 27.1. According to the 1995 report of the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction in Lisbon, the Dutch figures are the lowest in Europe. The Dutch AIDS prevention programme was equally successful. Europe-wide, an average of 39.2% of AIDS victims are intravenous drug-users. In the Netherlands, this percentage is as low as 10.5%."

Source: Netherlands Ministry of Justice, Fact Sheet: Dutch Drugs Policy, (Utrecht: Trimbos Institute, Netherlands Institute of Mental Health and Addiction, 1999), from the Netherlands Justice Ministry website at http://www.minjust.nl:8080/a_b...fact7.htm.


"The number of problem opiate/crack users seems to have remained relatively stable in the past ten years (3.1 per 1000 people aged 15-64 years). In the past decade, local field studies among traditional groups of problem opiate users have shown a strong in-crease in the co-use of crack cocaine, a reduction in injecting drug use, and an increase in psychiatric and somatic comorbidity."

A. Brazilian: The science of your failing conclusions II
written by aes, November 13, 2007
"The number of problem opiate/crack users seems to have remained relatively stable in the past ten years (3.1 per 1000 people aged 15-64 years). In the past decade, local field studies among traditional groups of problem opiate users have shown a strong in-crease in the co-use of crack cocaine, a reduction in injecting drug use, and an increase in psychiatric and somatic comorbidity."

Source: Trimbos Institute, "Drug Situation 2006 The Netherlands by the Reitox National Focal Point: Report to the EMCDDA" (Utrecht, Netherlands: Trimbos-Instuut, 2007), p. 9.


"Cannabis use among young people has also increased in most Western European countries and in the US. The rate of (cannabis) use among young people in the US is much higher than in the Netherlands, and Great Britain and Ireland also have relatively larger numbers of school students who use cannabis."

Source: Netherlands Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport, Drug Policy in the Netherlands: Progress Report September 1997-September 1999, (The Hague: Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport, November 1999), p. 7.


"The figures for cannabis use among the general population reveal the same pictures. The Netherlands does not differ greatly from other European countries. In contrast, a comparison with the US shows a striking difference in this area: 32.9% of Americans aged 12 and above have experience with cannabis and 5.1% have used in the past month. These figures are twice as high as those in the Netherlands."

Source: Netherlands Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport, Drug Policy in the Netherlands: Progress Report September 1997-September 1999, (The Hague: Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport, November 1999), pp. 7-8.


"The prevalence figures for cocaine use in the Netherlands do not differ greatly from those for other European countries. However, the discrepancy with the United States is very large. The percentage of the general population who have used cocaine at some point is 10.5% in the US, five times higher than in the Netherlands. The percentage who have used cocaine in the past month is 0.7% in the US, compared with 0.2% in the Netherlands.*"

Source: Netherlands Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport, Drug Policy in the Netherlands: Progress Report September 1997-September 1999, (The Hague: Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport, November 1999), p. 6. The report notes "*The figures quoted in this paragraph for drug use in the US are taken from the National Household Survey 1997, SAMHSA, Office of Applied Studies, Washington, DC".


"The National Youth Health Surveys (in 1988, 1992, 1996, 1999) among pupils (12-18 years) showed that the increase in cannabis use since 1988 stabilised between 1996 and 1999 (De Zwart et al. 2000). According to the Health Behaviour in School-aged Children study, this trend continued in 2001 (Ter Bogt et al. 2003). Use of other drugs showed a similar trend or slightly drecreased (LTP of ecstasy and amphetamine)."

Source: Trimbos Institute, "Report to the EMCDDA by the Reitox National Focal Point, The Netherlands Drug Situation 2003" (Lisboa, Portugal: European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction, Dec. 2003), p. 19.







...
written by A Brazilian, November 13, 2007
It should be primitive men ARE,


So what? This is something that must be fought against and not used as examples of wisdom. Instinctive knowledge of the meaning of life!? Haha, so dogs must have that too!
A. Brazilian In Conlusion
written by aes, November 13, 2007
In conclusion A. Brazilian decriminalization in the Netherland's model demonstrates significant positive outcomes to the problems of drug addiction, crime and its associative violence.

Your thinking is anachronistic. The Earth is in the center of your universe regardless of evidence to the contrary.
AES and his propaganda
written by A Brazilian, November 13, 2007
I won't enter in a Google competition of who can find more articles. I have listened to researchers of the area and they have shown that the Netherlands are far from the being the paradise of rule of law relating to drugs, using, of course, the correct Dutch statistics.
A. Brazilian
written by aes, November 13, 2007
Show me one scientific study supporting the fact that the Dutch model is not a deterent to the problems associated with drugs. S'il vous plait.
Another positive to consider
written by Simpleton, November 14, 2007
"Instinctive knowledge of the meaning of life!? Haha, so dogs must have that too!" So what you're saying Abe is that a very large percentage of Brazillians (those not working / not working much, lying around with anybody / anything / nothing, chilling till the next feriada / futbol game / government hand out, having an attention span of about 15 minutes after which it is a whole new world and what they did bad, wrong or didn't do the best thing about even if it were just a moment ago is never addressed openly and honestly again - forget about it let's go play) are naught but on par with the way dogs go through life. How could you say such awful things about your own? You and ch.C are like twin stars.
...
written by Macunaima, November 14, 2007
A. Brazilian sez:
I am not your friend and the comparison was perfectly valid given the argument used by AES. Both activities are considered crime, but AES wrote that the cost of fighting drugs was too high and if we just legalized them then all problems would go away, both the crime and the cost of fighting it.

Then you are being a moral moron. Someone who murders someone else takes a life out of this world. Someone who smokes a joint does... what, exactly? When COMBATING a crime creates FAR WORSE violence than the crime itself, then you need to stop combating the crime. If, in order to bring a murderer to justice, you'd need to kill a 100 innocent people then it's obvious that the punishment is worse than the crime. That does not happen with murder, though, does it?

Today in Rio, in the name of "preventinf drug use", THOUSANDS of people are killed annually. More people are killed by the drug war than are killed by drugs themselves. Again, this is not the case with murder. More people ARE NOT killed by the cops chasing murderers than are killed by murderers.

So sorry, A, your analogy is simply fallacious and downright silly.

I won't even deign your ad hominem attacks on me as a "drug user" and a "hippie" with a response, other than to say that only a person with no logical arguments to make would stoop to such name calling in the first place.

Now, you say...


The control by criminals over entire favelas? Death and intimidation? Problems caused by the consumption of drugs? The perception that working is futile and crime is easier? A poverty culture? There are many others that affect the entire society, such as violence.


Marijuana does not cause drug gangs' control of the favelas. If pot were legal, there'd be no reason to have armed drug gangs selling it, would there? It could be sold as openly as booze now is. Last I saw, the CV wasn't protecting biroskas with AK-47s, So no, pot does not cause criminal control of the favelas: drug wars and social abandonment does that. And what huge problems does pot consumption cause? Last I looked, amotivation, low sperm count and the munchies. Oh, and maybe, perhaps, in a small number of individuals, other mental problems. In any case, it's far, far less a problem than booze and we, as a society, seem to get along OK with legalized booze. How does pot cause a perception that work is less easy than crime? Hell, legalize pot and turn those kids overnight into entrepeneurs. As for "a poverty culture", son, you may not have noticed it, but Brazil has had a poverty culture for 500 years. Pot didn't cause that: primary resource producing economies based on slavery caused that. And finally, again, there is NO study, ANYWHERE, ANYWHEN that shows pot causes violence. The DRUG WAR against what's a relatively innocuous drug - certainly much less problematic than booze or tobacco - THAT'S what causes violence. Sorry. Your straight off on every point you made.

Primitive men were little more than apes, and didn't take as many baths as they should.

And you, sir, are an ethnocentric f**k, and probably a racist to boot.

Just because relativism is not a viable philosophy, son, doesn't mean that your superstitions and half-baked nonsense are the truth.
...
written by Shelly, November 14, 2007
My uncle used to be a cocaine addict, I saw what it did to our relatives and family members. He went through a divorce, went to jail and lost his job

As you see here it didn't only cause a problem to his family, but to the society as a whole. What would be of our country if the majority of people reached this state? It's not only cocaine, but the addicts of all kinds of drug. We have a problem already with alcohol and tobacco, it's logical to conclude that a greater availability of drugs would cause an even greater problem.

A Brazilian, You are taking what I said out of context and manipulating to fit your agenda. His addiction cause his immediate family pain, but society as a whole didn't loose anything. It actually gained you stupid prick, because he is a ten times more stronger today and probably more of a man than you are. He helps kids that are using drugs to quit, more than you do in a day! He payed his penitence and his debt to society and turned something negative into something positive. You on the other hand have shown to be a person of weak character, shame on you.

Also to say that a primitive man is little more than apes, you are a racist and very uncultured. Read the Forest People and then let me know who are the primitives. Actually, you and I would not survive in the jungle, therefore survival of the fittest has to be used "in context". What does make a person primitive? Please define it because I failed to see that the indigenous people of Africa, Brazil or Trobianders are primitive. They live differently from us, but it doesn't make them primitive. They work 20 hours a day, have a lot of fun and live in harmony with nature and themselves. Please let me know if we are "all that advanced". The only thing we do as a society, a "modern" society is to kill our own kind.

AES, as I mentioned before, the UVA drug research speaks for itself. When I posted the link, I had to do it in stages (I am having problems with my PC). No point arguing with someone so racist and so full of assumptions about other's culture.
Shelly
written by aes, November 14, 2007
No point arguing with someone so racist and so full of assumptions about other's culture.

Who is racist? and what assumptions about which other's cuttures? Holland? I lived there? The South Pacific? I lived theire. Israel I lived there, France I lived there, most of America I've lived there. I have also worked in the field of drug addiction in group encounter and fund raising in Hawaii. Please be more specific. I
AES
written by Shelly, November 14, 2007
I am talking about The Brazilian! GEEZ!
AES
written by Shelly, November 14, 2007
I am talking about The Brazilian! Geez!
aes
written by Shelly, November 14, 2007
And don't forget, underneath all, I think I have a pretty good idea about the Dutch culture. My concern relates to the health care of drug addicts. As I mentioned before, drug addiction is a physiological and psychological issue, are we going to provide re-hab programs? As you may know, next year I am going to be living in The Hague area. There are several clinics, payed by the government to help those who wish to break free from the cycle of drug abuse. Drug addicts need a very supportive society and the Dutch are aware of such behaviour. We in Brazil, have yet to reach a point where we care about children's well being. The legalization of drugs and abortion will not happen, because we have a history of being told what ,when and how to do it. We still live in the shadows of a dictatorship. Social justice has to begin at the top. Yesterday, I spoke about with an Argentinian friend of mine about the 30,000 disappeared and the 300 babies that were taken from their mothers, at least some of the military are behind jail. How about Brazil? Rio alone we had over 1500 tortured and many deaths, what is going to happen? NOTHING. Brazil will continue to be a paradise for the drug cartels, for the corrupt politician, for the corrupt police and for the thugs in congress. We still have a long way to go before we begin seeing the legalization of drugs and abortion.
Shelly
written by A Brazilian, November 14, 2007
His addiction cause his immediate family pain, but society as a whole didn't loose anything. It actually gained


No, this is a social problem. People in this state are unproductive and sometimes even dangerous to society due to criminal activities. They have also their intellect affected, at least in that period. If a great percentage of people reached this state it would be a public health catastrophe. Brazil already can't meet the demand of the people we have, with a number even greater of drug addicts who would have the right granted by the constitution of treatment things would even worse and costs would go through the roof.

As I said in the beginning, both the costs and the subsequent society of diseased we will have is reason enough to avoid it. You must have a macro vision in order to see in cases more than your own personal experience.

Also to say that a primitive man is little more than apes, you are a racist and very uncultured


No, I am realistic. They are pre-historic societies. They don't even have writing! At some point in time all people were like that, even the barbarians in Europe or in Asia, but they evolved. We shouldn't value the past that much, except for information on history, because there's only superstition and ignorance there, and definitely the today's primitives aren't examples of anything.

Example, a tribe in the middle of Amazon has as part of their culture to kill babies. Yes. Is this something good?

First what makes them primitive is the lack of writing, therefore no historical records, no literature, no science or math, and a society structured as the earlier human societies. They lack the ability and technology of creating artifacts beyond the simplest tools. Anthropologists study them because they are like snapshots of what humanity used to be thousands of years ago.
...
written by A Brazilian, November 14, 2007
Some tribes in Africa even lack numbers!
...
written by A Brazilian, November 14, 2007
The legalization of drugs and abortion will not happen, because we have a history of being told what ,when and how to do it.


The legalization of abortion won't happen because it is eugenics. It derives directly from politics of the early XX centrury devised to keep the "inferior" in low numbers, so they wouldn't represent a threat to the status quo. The founder of NGO Planned Parenthood was an eugeniticist. Brazil shouldn't go this way because this is simply Nazi.

And drugs would cause only destruction of our society.

Please do some research before saying s**t like that.
A brazilian
written by Shelly, November 14, 2007
And drugs would cause only destruction of our society.

Please do some research before saying s**t like that.


Your lack of knowledge of it seems to cause your bias. Do your research before saying s**t like that. Are you talking about legal or illegal? How about alcohol, do you want to prohibit it as well? I thought you must belong to the 60's generation or emulate their vision.
and you idiot
written by Shelly, November 14, 2007
Moron, you compared the "primitive" people with apes. Which shows your lack of anthropological knowledge. You have shown to be primitive in your vision about cultures and the world in general.
Macunaima, the pot smoker
written by A Brazilian, November 14, 2007
Someone who murders someone else takes a life out of this world.


You didn't get the point. The cost of fighting crime is not an excuse for not fighting it, and, as I said, replace murder with anything you prefer, the result is the same. You make a big deal of comparing murder to consumption of drugs, which will lead to deaths but indirectly, to dodge the truth.

Marijuana does not cause drug gangs' control of the favelas.


How so if you are giving your money to them so they can buy guns? The power of drug dealers is not welcome for the dwellers of those regions and you are causing it. They keep the power through terror.

If pot were legal, there'd be no reason to have armed drug gangs selling it, would there?


They would still exist selling other drugs. And even alcohol, which is legal, is falsified and sold by gangs, so what makes you think they would stop selling it? Probably they would sell cheaper due to tax evasion. Have you ever heard of that? Only in the mind of a pot smoker the crime will magically fade away just by legalizing it. Reality is much more complex than that.

Oh, and maybe, perhaps, in a small number of individuals, other mental problems.


A recent study in the Nature magazine describe the effects of Marijuana, which are worse than tobacco and worse.Get your facts straight and stop smoking before you damage your health permantely and kill others indirectly by funding the drug lords weapons.
A brazilian the dictator
written by Shelly, November 14, 2007
The legalization of abortion won't happen because it is eugenics. It derives directly from politics of the early XX centrury devised to keep the "inferior" in low numbers, so they wouldn't represent a threat to the status quo. The founder of NGO Planned Parenthood was an eugeniticist. Brazil shouldn't go this way because this is simply Nazi.


And who the F are you to decide what I or any other woman does with its body? Ahh the dictator! Let's keep abortion illegal, however do some research on the numbers of illegal abortion clinics in Brazil and the number of deaths associated with it, get a grip and welcome to the 21 century. The number of illegal abortions deaths in Brazil are a human disgrace. It is the countries 4th leading cause of maternal death.
A brazilian Part 1 for you to educate yourself
written by Shelly, November 14, 2007
SAO PAULO, Brazil (WOMENSENEWS)--Marta won't give her last name for fear of legal recriminations.

Her ex-husband, she says, has already threatened to report her to the police.

Her offense: Undergoing an illegal abortion at the age of 26 after her husband--from whom she was separating--raped and impregnated her.
"We always used condoms, but that time, with the violence, I was so distraught, in such disgust because I didn't want to, that I didn't even realize he had penetrated me without a condom," she says. "When I found out I was pregnant, I knew I couldn't have another child from a marriage that was ending."
Although most abortion is illegal in Brazil, exceptions are made for cases of rape or where a mother's life is in danger.
But since Brazil does not recognize marital rape, Marta couldn't seek a legal abortion.

So like many women in Brazil and throughout Latin America, she decided to seek an illegal abortion.
But Marta had just gone back to school at the time and had no money for the $600 it would cost to get an abortion done in a private clinic, a widespread practice according to Catholics for a Free Choice (Catolicas Pelo Direito de Decidir).
Turning to Ulcer Drug
Friends told her about Cytotec, a pill for treating ulcers, that is widely used in Brazil, Colombia and the Dominican Republic (where abortions are also illegal) to induce miscarriages. The medication is taken orally and works to dilate the cervix, according to All Women's of New York, an organization of private physicians that offer abortion services. In Brazil, Cytotec was banned a few years ago, but is still available on the black market for about $40.
Marta found a pharmacy that sold Cytotec under the table. It worked, but she bled for 40 days afterwards. She says she avoided seeking medical help for fear she'd be denounced.
Illegal Abortions Throughout Region
An estimated 5,000 women die, and 800,000 are hospitalized every year as a result of clandestine abortions across the region, according to the International Planned Parenthood Federation.
Part 2
written by Shelly, November 14, 2007
http://www.womensenews.org/art...xt/archive
A large portion of these cases occur in Brazil, where illegal abortions are the fourth cause of maternal deaths.A 2004 study by Brasilia-based government health statistics provider DataSus found that 238,000 women are hospitalized per year in public hospitals alone for complications due to illegal abortions at a cost of about $10 billion. The total toll and cost is assumed to be much worse because private hospitals weren't counted.In April, the leftist government of President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva established a tripartite commission, composed of six members of the government, six members of the legislature and six members of civil society. The commission has been criticized for including several pro-choice groups and women's health activists. The working group will spend three months analyzing the existing abortion legislation. Their recommendations will be packaged in a bill before Congress, which could come as early as July."The idea is to open up the decision at a societal level," says Maria Jose de Oliveira Araujo, technical coordinator for the Women's Health Division of the Ministry of Health "Because punishing women obviously hasn't resolved the problem of women getting clandestine abortions."Many women's rights activists applaud the moves taking place under President da Silva, who is widely known simply as Lula.
Part 3
written by Shelly, November 14, 2007
"I think President Lula himself is very sensitive to the issue," says Ana Fatima Macedo Galati, a health counselor with the Sao Paulo-based Feminist Collective for Health and Sexuality (Coletivo Feminista Sexualidade e Saude). "Of course, it doesn't only depend on him. But I think we have a chance."In the meantime, the government has also eased abortion policy in the case of rape.Eliminating Police Report On March 28, Brazil's ministry of health issued a directive that removes the requirement for a raped woman seeking an abortion to present a police incident report.
The 1940 law that permits abortion for rape said nothing about requiring an incident report, says the Health Ministry's Araujo. The requirement of a police report, she says, evolved during the late 1990s, in response to fears within the medical community, which wanted protection from lawsuits in cases where it was later found that the women hadn't actually been raped, making the abortion providers open to criminal prosecution.
Many women's health advocates say that onerous requirement led to only 160 legal abortions in 2004. Meanwhile, they say, about 1 million illegal abortions are performed each year in Brazil, a country with a population of 185 million.
"Women who've been raped don't always want to report the aggressor," says Dulce Xavier, a coordinator with the Brazilian branch of Catholics for a Free Choice, based in Sao Paulo.

Noting that around 70 percent of the aggressors in sexual violence cases are known to the victim--an ex-husband or a father--Xavier says women often feel either threatened or obligated to the aggressor, inhibiting them from initiating criminal proceedings. "That's why we feminist organizations have long been asking doctors to simply respect women's word."

Xavier says women often use primitive methods for inducing abortions, such as inserting objects in their uterus or taking poison. Many who take these extreme measures are too poor to arrange anything safer, she says.

"Here in Brazil, women sometimes ingest a poison used to kill rats . . . It's a dramatic situation and the women who die as a result of clandestine abortions in Brazil are mainly young, black and poor. Women with money can pay to have an abortion in a private clinic."
Backlash Sparked

The government's move to eliminate the incident report has sparked a backlash.

Earlier this month, the president of Brazil's House of Representatives, Severino Cavalcanti, railed against the Health Ministry's directive for rape cases, suggesting they will open a Pandora's Box for false cases.

"The Ministry of Health is not requiring any kind of proof that a woman was actually a rape victim," he said adding that women could claim that they don't "recognize" the rapist if they were making a "false declaration." Araujo says the Federal Council of Medicine, the national regulatory body for physicians, based in Brasilia, has advised its doctors to ignore the directive and continue asking for an incident report. Ministry of Health, she says, is trying to create a legal proviso that will protect doctors who perform abortions on women later found not to have been raped.

Marta, for her part, doubts that policies on abortion are about to undergo any major change.

"I think the Lula government is at least making a positive step because before no one even discussed the issue," Marta says. "But I think there's still a long way to go before we reach a place where women are given the freedom to choose. I have no hope that we'll gain that right anytime soon."

Jen Ross is a Chilean-based freelance journalist who delves into social issues affecting women across the continent.

http://gi.unc.edu/research/pdf/cytotec.pdf (more for you to educate yourself on the issue)

Shelly, the pharaoh
written by A Brazilian, November 14, 2007
And who the F are you to decide what I or any other woman does with its body? Ahh the dictator! Let's keep abortion illegal, however do some research on the numbers of illegal abortion clinics in Brazil and the number of deaths associated with it, get a grip and welcome to the 21 century. The number of illegal abortions deaths in Brazil are a human disgrace. It is the countries 4th leading cause of maternal death


I am a citizen who is against state sponsored murder of babies. I don't really care what you do yourself, you could even take an overdose of cocaine and that wouldn't make any difference, but killing babies? No, that we can't allow.

The numbers are made up. They have absolutely no source. The offical stats point only a few deaths by abortion a year, the rest is made up in the vague assumption that "there's no way of knowing it for sure". The reasons for abotions are just lies for furthering someone else's agenda.

And if that idiot really commit this crime she ought to be punished! But I think a better punishment would be sterilization.

You are a pawn in the hands of foreigns willing to curb the fecundity of third world nations. This is simply for maintaining their status quo in a very Nazi way.
Shelly
written by A Brazilian, November 14, 2007
You should relly research more about the subject. You are buying that is really not truth. Reasearch about Planned Parenthood connections to Eugenics. Research about the real numbers from abortion on Brazil, the ones backed by real data. Research about how the abortion came to be legalized in the US (and you will see the modus operandi of abortionists, lots of lies were created to create the impression that abortion was a lesser evil).

The exact same script applied to Brazil in the legalization of abortion, the same lies, were applied in other places. Research it.You are absurdly ignorant it, and you still want to accuse others? No, do your homework first.
...
written by Shelly, November 14, 2007
The abortion law in Brazil has nothing to do with Eugenics. It has to do with the Catholic church's view on abortion.For your knowledge, I am against abortion, however I understand and I am educated enough to use a birth control pill. Also, I do not judge people on the basis of their choice. I think you have an opinion, you are pro-life right? But how can you be pro-life if you deny the facts that women are dying everyday in Brazil from abortion complication? Are you sure you are pro-life?

My work with the poorer population, shows me that they want some form of birth control, but do not understand the concepts involved. It takes a long time and dedication to instruct someone, but it can be done.I had one lady take the whole packet at once, thinking that she was protected. Guess what happened latter? She already had 5 kids and didn't want anymore kids. The only solution for her was to have the next child and go for tubaligation. Who am I to decide how many kids a woman should and should not have? The state should not infringe on my liberties and we know that the current Brazilian law does not respect my right as a woman, and I am not the master of my own body. You get more severe punishment for having an abortion than for stealing. Also, birth control isn't something that the Catholic church endorse, along with condom use. There should always be a separation of church and state. The Catholic Bishops Conference of Brazil, has a heavy hand on this issue. To deny it is a form of ignorance.
Greetings
written by Ric, November 14, 2007
From Solvang. I love watching Abe Razillion frustrate those who choose to try to enter into meaningful dialogue with him. What he does best is making you tear your hair out. He is absolutely unteachable, thoroughly illogical, totally unable to introspect, provincially xenophobic.

He is the one of whom it has been said, "Knoweth not and knoweth not that he knoweth not."

As to his knowledge of Brazil, he seems to epitomize the parable of the blind man describing the elephant.
Ric
written by A Brazilian, November 14, 2007
In order to teach you need to know something in the first place. This is blind leading the blind.

If you disagree with me then go live in a tribe which can't count until 10.
...
written by aes, November 14, 2007
" Who am I to decide how many kids a woman should and should not have? " When they starve to death and die of polio or tuberculosis, when the stench of their dead and decaying bodies wafts upon the heights of alto lablon the the soaring vultures wheel in lazy circules waiting for lunch. I guess when you can no noger stand natures solution. Or the mother no longer can. It is most likely Darwinian forces at work. Let them work, step around the stench. Stop off in a church, its cool in there and the stench of decay does not reach through the thick walls of the colonades. Everything is right with the world, everything in its place. Except for the condums, and the tuballigations, there a bit of a theological problem. But the church is nice isnt it, nice and cool on the inside, real spriitual like, and the pictures and the baby jesus, God smiling down on all of us. Build more churches at least you cant see or hear the stench from within, and the food is good and the wind, hmmm the wine, then a little nap after vespers. And everything's all right in God's heaven and everything is in its place.
AES
written by A Brazilian, November 14, 2007
Abortion has nothing to do with churches, it has to do with Nazis. It's a lot different. I'd rather kill the bastard that proposes this nonsense in order to keep our numbers low than kill a single Brazilian baby.
A.BR.
written by aes, November 14, 2007
I think I was proposing abstinance or contraception. Life is sacred though the process is treated as seriously as washing ones hands. Infanticide is the consequence of obeise thinking. There is no other there is only the self. There is no reponsibility, it is a nation of emotionally retarded adolescents feeding their senses, without any sense of consequence. And the mother Church does not sllow contraception. Lay the babies at the foot of the Catholic Church. Let the Catholic Church take responsibility for the epidemic their divinely inspired advice as wrought or rot.
...
written by Um João da Silva qualquer, November 15, 2007
Please don't call me names or anything, I'm still elaborating on the ideas here and don't have an opinion yet smilies/wink.gif, but for those that thinks that legalizing drugs is a good thing for Rio, take this in consideration:

Every time the police fights hard the drug "business" in Rio, the drug dealers send their "soldiers" to the asphalt to commit crimes like robbery, kidnap, etc, cause they are running out of money.

One thing someone said I'm sure it's correct: Those traficantes surely won't starting sending resumès and become correct citizens overnight. Of course they will commit other kind of crimes to maintain their easy profits. They do it since they are kids, that's what they do in life, they manage M-16s since 12 years old, some probably better than US Marines.

In my not well formed opinion there's only one solution to drug related violence. Strong repression and efficient prisons.
...
written by ernest in michigan u.s.a., November 15, 2007
wow, this has been very interesting....the racism and the way it thinks is the same way here in the U.S., just a bit
more hidden. one brasilian above (white i assume) that the blacks have nothing to offer brasilian "culture". his ignorance
of the people of earth is amusing in that he sincerely believes his culture is the only culture worth saving. yes, slavery
messed up the minds of the "colored" people so bad that there are millions of us so-called "mixed-race" people who will
admit every other "race" in our blood yet run from the obvious blackness. what is not understood is how bad slavery infected
the whites, some to this day still believe in their "manifest destiny" of superiority. they actually believe they are the measure
of the perfect human and no one else has anything to contribute. do they have any idea they are living a lie? do they even
care? as long as they can remain at the top of the food chain, they care not about the problems that affect the poor and
uneducated. i have worked construction over 30 years and i still run into these types of weak idiots and i'm afraid this will
never change. we put up with the same bulls**t here in america. sure, some blacks here will say it's not a problem but trust
me, s**t happens every day to remind us the fight must continue. i hope and pray my brothers and sisters in brasil continue
to fight via education, self employment and whatever must be done to earn your part of brasil. NEVER STOP FIGHTING!!!!!
A. Brazilian. An ideologue or simply stupid?
written by Macunaima, November 15, 2007
Well, A. Brazilian (which I doubt you are), you're a fine one to lecture Shelly on "proof", seeing as how you quote poorly researched pop sceince articles (Nature magazine, indeed) and MISQUOTE them as well to make your points. You also seem to enjoy making ad hominem attacks instead of backing your arguements up with logic: an infalible sign of a weak mind.

But what is really shocking is that you simply can't understand logical and historical proofs. Pot does not cause violence: ILLEGALITY causes violence in the drug trade. And no, legalizing pot will not get rid of all violence but it WILL get rid of violence linked to pot. This has been proven by history. Back in the 1920s, in the U.S., bar owners also had to have hired thugs to prevent their business because booze was illegal. But prohibition eneded and I don't see many U.S. bars surrounded by part-time, irregular soldiers today, do you?

Now, this has been explained to you in very simple terms by me and by other people and the point still seems to be flying over your head about as high as a LSD casualty. I have met many real-to-life stoners and hippies and even they have a better grasp of simple facts than you do, son. So what's your problem? Are you just stupid? Or is it your ideology which makes you believe that "facts" are only those things you believe in?

Like I said above, relativism may not be much of a life philosophy, but that fact doesn't mean that your particular brand of rabid obscurantism to the level of truth.
...
written by Macunaima, November 15, 2007
João sez:
Those traficantes surely won't starting sending resumès and become correct citizens overnight. Of course they will commit other kind of crimes to maintain their easy profits.

João, it is precisely BECAUSE one can make easier profits with legal pot than with having to maintain a private army that those guys WILL quit. If money is the motivator (and I'm sure we can both agree it is), it is more profitable to pay some taxes and kick back than it is to run an entire paramilitary operation.

While criminals may gravitate to other activities, legality takes away their profits. This is PRECISELY what happened to organized crime in the U.S. after prohibition was repealed. Sure, it stuck around. But it never had the impact - nor caused the threat to public order - that it did when it was being subsidized by ens of millions from illegal speakeasies.
A brazilian
written by Shelly, November 15, 2007
The numbers aren't made up. There are tons of studies out there. Also, when you have a vagina, maybe you can have an opinion. You are closet dictator, one who would like to subjugate women to live in the dark ages. Look at the study, is it lying as well? My sister is in med school in Rio and she sees women everyday who buy drugs or poison themselves in order to have an abortion. You are not pro-life, not pro-education and not cultured and a racist. So far you have given ideas around prohbition, solutions? NONE

AES, I am all for education of women. I would invite you and A Brazilian to visit where my dad works. Please, spend sometime with the poor, they need you WILLING men there to teach them how to take a birth control pill and to teach that abstnence is the best way to avoid having an unwanted child. No pun intended. smilies/wink.gif
...
written by Shelly, November 15, 2007
Maybe we should sterelize all man in Brazil, not you Joao, you seem like a good fella and a person which will pass good genes down the road. How about vasectomy instead of tubaligation? I have a pair of scissors ready to go.
...
written by Macunaima, November 15, 2007
Ric sez, regarding Abie Babie:
He is the one of whom it has been said, "Knoweth not and knoweth not that he knoweth not."

Or as we say in portuguese, "Ele não sabe, não quer saber e tem raiva de quem sabe."

Yep. Lil' Abie's militant ignorance is a pretty impressive thing.
...
written by Macunaima, November 15, 2007
You know, what's interesting about Janer's article is that he castigates liberals for forgetting about the poor in the favelas and developing a double standard. So what's his solution to the problem? Enshrining that double standard and underlining it with the biggest act of mass murder since Hitler stoked up the Holocaust.

So this is to be the death of relativism, is it? We go back to a world in which we simply decide that we know good and bad with absolute precision and simpy cast the evil into the fires of hell along with millions of good and let God sort them out?

What Janer and A. Brazilian are saying is that smoking a joint shoulkd result in death. Not only your death, but that of your family and neighbors too. Massive, uncontrolled death.

How can these two guys (if they are indeed two seperate people) make their claim to be civilized, superior, evolved human beings when thei morality comes straight out of Europe's Dark Ages?
Macunaima
written by Shelly, November 15, 2007
I have given sources from different places. The drug stats from the Netherlands, I gave them from UVA. The research done by a University of North Carolina, which he did not read because he is blind and likes to charade on issues not pertaining to his scope of knowledge. He is like to say "I am against" but fails to give good dissenting argument.
...
written by Macunaima, November 15, 2007
Welcome to the new face of Brazilian fascism, folks.
A dictator
written by Shelly, November 15, 2007
Here from Princeton Uni. http://gi.unc.edu/research/pdf/cytotec.pdf

educate yourself!
Brazilian dictator
written by Shelly, November 15, 2007
http://paa2007.princeton.edu/a...onId=71848

From Princeton just for you!
AES the dreamer
written by Shelly, November 15, 2007
The exact same script applied to Brazil in the legalization of abortion, the same lies, were applied in other places.

He is the kind of guy that will believe that Americans did not go to the moon. I guess Harvard, Princeton and UNC are all liers.
macunaima rocks
written by aes, November 15, 2007
. . ."Like I said above, relativism may not be much of a life philosophy, but that fact doesn't mean that your particular brand of rabid obscurantism rises to the level of truth."

obscurantism, now there's a word.
...
written by A Brazilian, November 15, 2007
The numbers aren't made up.


Of course they are. Death by unsuccessful abortion is only a few a year. These are the offical numbers. Who says "millions" is obviously lying. I have given all the arguments needed and pointed to other places where you find more things about it. Research about it.
Ernest
written by A Brazilian, November 15, 2007
What the f**k are you talking about?
Abe in Ernest
written by Simpleton, November 16, 2007
Yust p off biatch. You and your keyboard are far and away more primitive than civilized in relation to those who are ernest but with different experiences, viewpoints, life situation and beliefs which are valid to them but differ from your own.

Shell, if you would, please pass on some Rio based organization names / educational facilities connection info / potential points of contact for the good work efforts you mentioned. Are they in Urca? The college at the base of Catumbi? The research facility near to Jacare' / Maria Da Graca? Love to make time to check them out in person and see if we could donate some time, effort , whatnot.
...
written by Shelly, November 16, 2007
Simpleton,

Centro de Defesa da Vida
Orientação jurídica, cursos e oficinas de auto-estima para mulheres em situação de violência
Duque de Caxias/RJ
(21) 3774-3993

pas Brasil
Leila Adesse – presidente
Projetos: Medidas e intervenções recomendadas para tratar do problema da violência contra a mulher (2001); Violência, gravidez indesejada e aborto
Rio de Janeiro/RJ
(21) 2532-1939 / 2532-1930 / 2210-1870
ladesse@ipas.org.br
http://www.ipas.org.br/violencia.html

Abrapia – Associação Brasileira Multiprofissional de Proteção à Infância e Adolescência
Lauro Monteiro Filho – secretário executivo
Projeto: Mulheres, crianças e adolescentes que sofrem abuso sexual
Rio de Janeiro/RJ
(21) 2589-5656
abrapia@openlink.com.br
http://www.abrapia.org.br


This one is outside Rio, but worth giving them a call and see if you can help.

Associação Casa de Passagem do Vale
Silvia Cristina Feldens Wiehe – presidente
Casa-abrigo regional que abriga mulheres e filhos e atende o agressor
Vale do Taquari/RS
(51) 3748-6912
acpv@casadepassagemdovale.org.br
http://www.casadepassagemdovale.org.br
...
written by Shelly, November 16, 2007
Also I will check with my sister if she knows of specific clinics that need volunteers. I am she'll know some, she is in med school and I will talk to her sometime this weekend.

Research?
written by Macunaima, November 16, 2007
A.Brazilian sez:
Research about it.

How about putting your money where your mouth is and giving us a dirrect reference to that "Nature" article which you claim "proves" pot is more dangerous than tobacco?

That's a pretty big whopper of a claim for a man who whines about "official statistics", given that the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta rates tobacco-smoking relayed deaths in the hundreds of thousands per annum and pot-smoking related deaths almost non-extant.

It seems, A, that you're in no position to call "bulls**t" on other peoples' facts, seeing that you seem to be making yours up out of whole cloth.
Oh, shut up!
written by A Brazilian, November 16, 2007
Use Google, just like AES did. For example:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3039.html

For example, the BLF's review of previous research highlights that just three marijuana joints a day causes the same damage to the lung's airways as 20 cigarettes, mainly because of the way joints are smoked.


What fairy tale land do you live in?
Ouch That Hurt!
written by Simpleton, November 17, 2007
The impairment of lungs / respiratory efficiency, high or higher carcinogen content of one weed or brand verses another weed. It's Evil to say the least but I wouldn't trade my 20 for even one per day. The top end of either trade and distribution heirarchy and their suica money launderers would hunt me down, of that I am sure. You know what they say right? It's not paranoia when they really are after you!

And maybe you should ask if AES is from prairie land vs fairy land.
...
written by Macunaima, November 18, 2007
For example, the BLF's review of previous research highlights that just three marijuana joints a day causes the same damage to the lung's airways as 20 cigarettes, mainly because of the way joints are smoked.


Actually, this is misleading. While yes, three joints a day may cause the same damage to the lungs (and this is far from "proven": the research it`s taken from has been challenged on several points), what it doesn't cause is cancer. I've read this research and what it indicates is that very heavy pot users might face the same threat of contracting certain lung diseases as tobacco smokers. Most of these diseases are non-lethal and the research itself has been questioned by several authorities, most notably the CDC. What the research itself points out, however, is that there's no comparable cancer risk.

A.Brazilian's original point was that pot kills as much as tobacco. This is simply not true. Tobacco's main problem is the plant's heavy metal content and the chemicals its cured in: these cause cancer and the cancer rates are unbelievable for tobaco smokers.

As an aside, you'd really have to be a moron to believe that 3 joints a day is "normal" pot consumption for most people: try three joints a week, maybe.

Finally, there is no way in hell that even three joints a day will do as much damage to one's lungs - the cancer issue aside for a moment - as a pack or two a day, which is a typical tobacco habit. And all A. Brazilian needs to do to confirm this is ask any doctor. Three joints may do as much damage as three cigarettes, yes. But few people are hospitalized with lung disease from smoking three cigarettes a day. So here's another point that A. Brazilian "forgot" to point out (or is perhaps too stupid to suss out): a heavy pot habit will in no way shape or form f**k up one's lungs as much as even a NORMAL cigarette habit.

So no, A.Brazilian: your googled research is off. Or rather, you were too incompetent to read it correctly. Guess it comes from the fact that English is your second language, but in the future, maybe you should let those of us with a halfway decent education do the heavy intellectual lifting, 'tá? It's obviously beyond your means.
...
written by Macunaima, November 18, 2007
Here's much better research, done by an outstanding hospital, with a very, very large (and thus statistically significant user base):

Regular Pot Smoking Won't Kill, Kaiser Researchers Determine

David Perlman, San Francisco Chronicle, May 15, 1997

In one of the largest marijuana studies ever conducted, researchers have concluded that regular pot smoking does not cause death, but that branding its use a crime may itself pose a health hazard by exposing users to criminals and violence. And because marijuana use is so widespread in America today, the researchers called for medical guidelines warning that pot smoking can lead to risky sexual behavior, impaired driving ability and ultimately to a strong dependence akin to drug addiction.

The researchers tracked the records of more than 65,000 Bay Area members of the Kaiser Permanente health plan for an average of 10 years. Compared to the members who had never used marijuana, they found no increase in deaths among more than 14,000 of the patients who had said they were marijuana users between 1979 and 1985. People with AIDS were the only group of pot smokers found to have significantly higher death rates than the other nonsmokers. But their mortality was virtually the same as it was for AIDS patients who didn't smoke marijuana. So although the association between marijuana and AIDS deaths is clear, ``we really don't think it's a cause,'' said Dr. Stephen Sidney, who headed the research group.

The report on marijuana use and mortality was published yesterday in the April issue of the American Journal of Public Health. The researchers were from Kaiser Permanente in Oakland and the University of California School of Public Health in Berkeley. An estimated 10 million Americans now use marijuana, and because at least one- quarter of them are teenagers, Sidney said it is crucial for doctors and parents to recognize the need for credible advice about pot smoking.

``Our primary message should be `Don't use it, but if -- God forbid -- you do use it, then don't drive or let anyone who smokes it drive, and remember that marijuana can easily lead you into situations of risky sex,' '' said Sidney, who has three children, ages 15, 12 and 7.

The report noted that while marijuana smoking does not cause death, pot smokers make significantly more clinic visits for respiratory infections like coughs, colds and flu than nonsmokers. In one part of the study, the researchers compared the risk of death among the marijuana users to deaths among cigarette smokers and those who consumed three or more alcoholic drinks a day. Mortality was highest of all for the cigarette smokers, but the mortality risk among marijuana smokers and drinkers varied by gender. Among women, those who smoked marijuana had a lower risk of death than drinkers, while mortality was higher among men who smoked pot than it was among those who drank regularly.

The researchers stressed throughout their report that the links they found between pot use and deaths were associations but not an indication that marijuana was a cause of death.

The report also touched on several politically charged political issues. It said:

-- ``While reducing the prevalence of drug abuse is a laudable goal, we must recognize that marijuana use is widespread despite the long-term, multibillion dollar War on Drugs.''

-- ``The criminalization of marijuana use may itself be a health hazard, since it may expose the consumer to violence and criminal activity.''

-- ``Medical guidelines regarding its prudent use should be established, akin to the commonsense guidelines that apply to alcohol use...''
Macunaima, the pot smoker and addict
written by A Brazilian, November 19, 2007
Google for real research, with a controlled environment and real data, not statistics based on guessed numbers. You are an addict.
A. Brazilian: drunk or just a repressed homosexual? Or both?
written by Macunaima, November 19, 2007
Real data?

That "research" you're talking about certainly didn't offer that.

As for a "controlled environment"... There is such a thing - especially with highly politically motivated research as too much of a controlled environment. An environment which is "controlled" to produce precisely the one thing its researchers are looking for is not very scientific.

A broad-based study of habitual users of pot - tens of thousands of them - in the real world, comparing their health stats to that of the general population is PRECISELY what's called for here. It's EXACTLY this sort of study that pointed out the dangers of tobacco smoking decades ago. Tightly controlled studies with tiny lab populations didn't lead to the discovery that tobacco causes cancer, A.

In other words A, if your theory was correct and pot smoking kills as much as tobacco smoking, then we should see similar death stats in the population at large, living life as it's lived.

So once again, you don't have a logical or scientific leg to stand on and you're reduced to name calling. Sad.

I shouldn't be suprised, however. Even the most THC-baked stoner waste case can poke holes in the kind of paper-thin theories you use to back up your ridiculous prejudices and your need to hate.

Frankly, I wouldn't be suprised if, at the bottom of all this bitterness you seem to have against anyone who isn't precisely like you, A, we were to find a whole big load of projection. My guess is that a bigot like you is probably using vitirol against other groups to avoid looking at some nasty truths about his own life. I'd lay dollars to donuts you're a social drunk, A, a man who's probably not very successful (or doesn't feel very successful) in what he does and someone with deep-seated ambivalent feelings - perhaps bordering on heavily repressed homosexuality - towards women.

...
written by Macunaima, November 19, 2007
And anyone who "googles for real research" doesn't know the meaning of the concept "research" in the first place. smilies/grin.gif
A. Brazilian: Self determinatrion. Maslow. The Dutch manifest the quintescence of cultural humanism, they are the best of all the peoples of Europe
written by AES, November 19, 2007
The Dutch drug policy is based on the general principle of self-determination in matters of the body. Specifically, that it is not illegal to hurt yourself; however, you remain liable for the consequences of your actions. Because of this, users are not prosecuted for possession of small quantities of soft drugs ("for personal use").

In order to appreciate the Dutch approach to the drugs problem, certain characteristics of Dutch society must be kept in mind. The Netherlands is one of the most densely populated, urbanized countries in the world. It has a population of 15.5 million, occupying an area of no more than 41,526 km2. The Netherlands has a long history as a country of transit: Rotterdam is the largest seaport in the world, while the country has a highly developed transport sector. The Dutch firmly believe in the freedom of the individual, with the government playing no more than a background role in religious or moral issues. A cherished feature of Dutch society is the free and open discussion of such issues. A high value is attached to the well-being of society as a whole. The Dutch do not have a tradition of responding to social problems with the criminal law.
AES, the pot smoker
written by A Brazilian, November 20, 2007
Self-determination doesn't include the public health costs and drug addict culture that will inevitably lower the intellectual capacity of the population and hurt the country as a whole in the long run.

And stop pretending you write things. This was taken from Google too.
Macunaima, the pot smoker
written by A Brazilian, November 20, 2007
Well, you have invalidated all reasearch ever produced by humanity because they are "too controlled". Without acknowledging and limiting the quantity of variables that could affect the results it's possible to find anything you want, even that pot is healthier than tobacco. Besides statistics are the easiest thing to be manipulated, all you have to do is to omit certain aspects of the data or compare completely different things.

You are an addict, admit it. You are enraged because others judge you because of what you are, that is, an addict. The very argument of elimination of "violence" is pure baseless wishful thinking.
...
written by AES, November 20, 2007
I merely presented information that you might synthesize into your body of knowledge. It is information or it is not. Having lived in Holland, specifically Amsterdam for an extended period of time, the body of knowledge I possess is anectodal of course, but it enables me to ascertain whether a thing is true or not. The material presented from Google are points of departure. The cite was from Dutch governmental publication. It was not merely opinion it was expert opinion.
Travels With a Donkey
written by Ric, November 20, 2007
Which, by the way, I recently re-read in Brazil.

If one is thinking of acquiring one, having engaged in conversation with Abe Razillion would certainly stand one in good stead in terms of patience and expectations.
...
written by Macunaima, November 21, 2007
Well, you have invalidated all reasearch ever produced by humanity because they are "too controlled".


Nope. But research that sets out to "prove" what it already "knows" through selective culling of variables is not research at all, A. And that's what that study you googled does.

Again, you claim that pot kills more people than tobacco. That is a singular claim, seeing as how both the Brazilian Ministry of Health and the US CDC have no stats of that sort, anywhere. And if pot DID kill people by the millions, rest assured, drug warriors would be telling us about it.

There's a cure for A. Brazilian...
written by Macunaima, November 21, 2007
It's called a big, fat dick - preferably afrodescendent - straight up his a*****e.

C'mon, A: admit it: the real reason you hang out here is that you're cruising for a sugar daddy to support your coke habit. smilies/grin.gif
Comments to Janer Cristaldo
written by omodes, November 24, 2007
you are an ass.
degrading
written by Zezinho, October 23, 2009
Interesting that the discussion here started out good then turned into a high school type name calling contest between posters here..shame on you guys!

If you are educated, stick to the subject matter..
Neo Nazi Cristaldo
written by maxim599, April 24, 2011
Kill them all? This in not an intelligent discourse of a society problem. This is mindless babble of a neo-Nazi who believes in mass elimination of over a million lives.
The problem is not criminals in the favelas. It's fools like Critaldo who are blinded by their selfish bigotry.

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