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To Be Black or Not Black? In Brazil...Who Cares! PDF Print E-mail
2010 - May 2010
Written by Carmen Joy King   
Thursday, 27 May 2010 02:00

Black in white handA couple of months ago, an older, well-educated female student in my intermediate conversation class asked me if I was concerned about Marcelo's dark skin color. You see, we had been discussing M and I's move to Canada and I was anxious about how quickly he would get a job in his field. Marcelo is a DBA (Database Administrator) and though people working in IT generally fair well as immigrant workers, we were still prepared for him to work in an entry level position - perhaps not in his area.

In any case, the fact that his skin is mulatto had never entered into the equation for us. We hadn't even discussed it. I hadn't thought about it until she asked me, "Are you worried about Marcelo's race?" as if all North Americans were bogged down by the color of our skin.

Race is a funny issue in Brazil. I have not met a Brazilian who didn't boast that "there is no racism in Brazil". They scoff at race issues in the US.  "What's the big deal," they might say, "that Barack Obama is black? So what? Us Brazilians don't see people in those terms. We're color blind."

Yet I have not seen one black politician and certainly not a black president. They openly joke about blackness and it's not considered taboo or racist. In my family they call each other "Negrão," which means something like "Big Blackie". Non-racism is a Brazilian "fact" that was probably in large part created by Gilberto Freyre who wrote the infamous work "The Masters and the Slaves".

In his book published in the 1930s, Freyre describes in intricate detail the culture of colonial sugar plantations and though not explicit in his descriptions, he links the masters and slaves through sex. Peter Robb writes in his book "A Death in Brazil": "It was sex enhanced by the gorgeousness of the climate and the sweetness of the sugar, and also sex made perverse by the cruel relationship of masters to slaves, of the Roman Catholic Church to African practices and indigenous forest life. Every new theme he turned to became an aspect of sexual life."

And so sexual mixing laid the groundwork for a "...benign equality in diversity of all of Brazil's races and cultures, once the institution of slavery dropped away..." However, the white Brazilians of the 1930s ruling class who were shaping the society were not as easily seduced by the idea of Brazil as racially benign and were focused on creating a Brazil of "order and progress"- a seemingly European Brazil that would not be held back by its voluptuous, humiliating past.

Indeed it's here we continually encounter the Brazilian paradox: a white ruling class embarrassed by its backwards, rural northeastern culture and yet exuberantly proud of its unique mixed results. In conversations with wealthy, fair-skinned Brazilians, they often express shame at the problems in Brazil's Northeast, although conversely they are fiercely proud of Carnaval and other Brazilian festivals which originated there.

Furthermore, they like to emphasize the progressive ways of Brazil's more European southern states predominantly populated by Germans and Italians, yet condemn the cold nature of those very same people. The culture is defined by these temperatures.

The wealthy, middle-class people who surround me here in Brooklin (São Paulo) compliment Brazil when it's doing something very "First World" and deride the nation when it's acting "Third World"; they venerate their hot-blooded festas (which one could assert are very African in nature) but are working very hard, especially here in São Paulo, to create a respectable society free of its overheated and lazy Third World chains.

Ultimately, what are the catalysts in forming this idyllic Brazil of the future? President Lula wants to shape Brazil by implementing "poor and black" quotas in top public universities and giving poor people free money or "bolsas". Other Brazilians, especially those of retirement age desperately in need of pension money they feel is now going to poor people, believe that high quality public education is the key.

According to Marcelo's parents, when they were children (in the 40s and 50s) public education from elementary until high school in Brazil was top notch. They received a fine education and went on to finish university. Marcelo's mom was a school teacher and his dad worked his way up in a computer company. When the military coup took place, public schools disintegrated and from the rubble emerged a multitude of private schools who gladly charged eager, middle class parents their hard earned dollars for a guaranteed chance of a "better life", one could even call it a First World life.

My brother and sister-in-law pay 1000 reais a month (US$ 540) to send their 2-year old to a pre-school for half a day, five days a week. That is almost double what an average nanny is paid monthly to look after children for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week.

Though it's certainly not fair to directly compare schooling and all that entails with basic child care, the numbers still speak. The majority of Brazilian nannies are often poor, black women who leave their families and their own children to tend to wealthy, predominantly white children.

My maid Manoela once told me that she married an alcoholic abuser and had six children with him because no one ever taught her any different - not her impoverished parents, not her school, and certainly not the wider community. And why? Is it because she's a black woman? Brazilians might reply, "No, of course not. It's because she's poor."

Ah ha, so this is how race works here: it's disguised as class. Manoela was given two choices in her youth: have babies and clean houses, anything beyond those would have required someone close to her to suggest a solid education and demand more for herself.

Herein lies an example of contemporary Brazilian racism: poor black women do not generally receive a decent education and work for rich white families. The rich white parents need this black woman because they're both working, they're both working because they need to pay for private health and education for their children.

You get the picture. It would be impossible to build this so-called Brazil of the future if there wasn't a lower class of predominantly poor, black females carrying it (like it would have been impossible to build the Brazil of the 17th century without slave labor).

Brazilians may be color blind, but they're certainly not blind to class and I've yet to witness an angry march in street demanding better education for all Brazilians, rich or poor. It's just not happening.

Somehow middle-class Brazilians support the illiteracy of poor Brazilians by continuing to pay private educational institutions.

When you ask them about this, they will be quick to tell you that they have no choice. It's either pay the private school or raise a "loser". And no one, especially those raised in the middle class, want to be viewed as poor.

Back in my intermediate conversation class, I laughed in response to her question. I honestly thought she was joking and when I saw that she was completely serious, I replied, "Well I hadn't really thought about that. He's a Brazilian, right? He doesn't really have a color."

Carmen Joy King is a freelance writer and Canadian expat living in São Paulo. You can read more by her here: http://thenewbrooklin.blogspot.com/



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Comments (124)Add Comment
To Be Black or Not Black? In Brazil...Who Cares ?
written by ch.c, May 27, 2010
Welll.... then SIMPLY ask Brazilians Blacks how they are treated by the Brazilians Whites !
No doubt that Brazilians Whites DONT CARE about their Brazilians Blacks !

Thus so true that.....In Brazil...Who Cares ?
No Mention Made of the WORST OFFENDERS!
written by Brazuca, May 27, 2010
One of the most flagrant abusers in Brazil of the cherished principle of equality is the powerful social group known as Nippo-Brazilians. Constituting only 1% of the population, they have unfairly managed to reserve for themselves something like 20% of university spots in South America's most prestigious university, the University of São Paulo.
The courses this racial coterie tends to retain for itself through influence and connections, withholding them from other equally deserving Brazilians, are the ones that lead to prestigious professions and well-paying careers, like those in medicine, engineering, etc.
Thus, other Brazilians like European-Brazilians and African-Brazilians, simply on the basis of their race or skin color, are excluded from enjoying an equitable representation in the most prestigious university in South America, and from there many of the prestigious professions that follow. All because of the greed of this tiny but ruthlessly oppressive racial elite.

Unless one is prepared to confront head-on and as an absolute priority the blatent inequality and discrimination the Japanese are responsible for perpetrating in Brazil, then one can't be considered serious in challenging the racial exclusion and discrimination prevalent in Brazil.
Japanese are responsible for perpetrating in Brazil
written by ch.c, May 27, 2010
Yeahhhhhhhhhhh !
But....but....but..... are these "Japanese" not as Brazilians as YOU THE BRAZ-ZERO Brazuca ?
Funny....sometimes it is the "blue eyes" responsible....as much Brazilians as all brazilians.
And sometimes the Americans are responsible....of course !

Are you a Country....or just a bunch of idiots coming from different origins !
In such a case...You Brazuca....is just as guilty toward the INDIANS....to my knowledge !
Your Ancestrors stole THEIR LAND !
Thus get out of your own country...regardless if you have a Brazilian passport !
YOU ARE NOT....BRAZILIAN....BY YOUR OWN DEFINITION until proven otherwise !
And go back to the country of your ancestrors.
Reading your idiot comments....may be that is what you are thinking what Blacks Brazilians should do as well !
After all they come from....AFRICA.....INITIALLY !

And if you disagree with me then spell out clearly WHO ARE BRAZILIANS....AND WHO ARE NOT BRAZILIANS in your Einstein's view !

Ohhh my....Ohhhhh my....


Ahhhh....ahhhhhh !
Here We Go Again....
written by fried CHC, May 27, 2010


Frustrated gringos taking their hang-ups on us....

F.U.C.K.-OFF (.....O.....) holes!

Before giving advice, why don't you turn your racial concerns to the new non-white laws of Arizona?

Get lost freaks of nature,

Costinha

PS: Butt butt butt, I think the metal nose-ring hanging off CHC short circuited the small brain mass he had left!
...
written by King Tubbs aka Jaja, May 27, 2010
@Brazuca, I recognise that sarcasm anywhere, a fellow refugee from the old Brazzil forum pre "The Big Hack"!!! Nice to see your still around, ever wonder what happened to Spinny, Grady, young buck, Marina, PRJose, Bi99a, maica et al? I'm a bit surprised you said "African Brazilians" rather than Masochist Brazilians-LOL!! Take Care mate!smilies/smiley.gif
FedEx's Inhumane Treatment!!!!
written by Maurice, May 27, 2010
See how FedEx treat their employees.

Go to YouTube, search word: FedEx Inhumane Treatment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YnbcC...
.
Memories...
written by Brazuca, May 27, 2010
Hi King Tubbs, nice to see someone still remembers me from the old forum!

When I was in Rio recently, it crossed my mind to try and meet up with that super-comedian guy -- I can't think of his name right now -- ah, It's Jaboo! (I remember him mentioning that his kids attended that school in Jardims Botanico.) Anyway, I thought of it but didn't do so. But then again, last I saw on his status on the Forum he was in the Amazon or something.

Spinarooni was creepy. He was actually some sort of white supremacist (or should I say, wog supremacist) all along. What a crazy persona to maintain for such a long period!

Jose, with whom I had big debates in the Religion section of the forum, I spoke to by phone when I was in Rio, but we didn't get a chance to meet up personally. He's published some articles here and has a Youtube channel centered on his English-teaching practices.

I'm still close friends with adrianerik and we continue to engage in amicable conversations in the comments section of some articles published here. Most recently was when I published an article here recently ("Brazil's Debt to the Ford Foundation: E Unum Pluribus") and we exchanged some pleasantries in the comments below the article.
FEDEX INHUMANE ???????
written by ch.c, May 28, 2010
Braz-zeroesssssss you better look at what is happening in your sh.tty country......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i3UKmcZU_0

I bet that all brazilians slaves are dreaming to have employers such as FEDEX.
And their salaries and social coverage too !


Ahhh....ahhhh !
Warm comments
written by adrianerik, May 28, 2010
Sim... senhor. the fact that you admitted to listening to hip hop and jazz has changed my view of you...just a bit.

Your "nippo Brazilian" example, is still weak, however and I still insist that it proves a point made by every immigrant group who, faced with an antagonistic group, be it racial (white) or ethnic (as in some asian and african societies) that the correct response to images that deify one group as heroes, heroines and the "resolver of world problems" group and rejects another group who are labeled as 'victims", "followers" and the "cause of world problems" then one must raise up your children surrounded by the comforting and affirming values of their own myths, legends and history...such as the Japanese in Brazilian.

Those Asians who do not do this diminish and are "absorbed" into racist white culture diminish in their achievements.
i could use a jazz discussion around here....
written by asp, May 28, 2010
or even better, one about the incredible amount of brazilian instrumentalists there are that dont get much attention in the media (although id be happy to engage anyone on the fine points of differance of the miles davis quintets with coltrane, and the one with wayne shorter or george coleman)

i feel like i want to say something about this article, but, i just dont get this authors point exactly
...
written by asp, May 28, 2010
http://ego.globo.com/Gente/fot...EXH,00.jpg

"Those Asians who do not do this diminish and are "absorbed" into racist white culture diminish in their achievements"

you mean like sabrina , adrian ? ( sorry man, just kidding, its rainy out lately with very little beach action, i just habitualy brought that in )
...
written by João da Silva, May 28, 2010

just kidding, its rainy out lately with very little beach action,


You could organize a Tea & Crumpets party for all your buddies, instead of complaining about the weather which is certainly going to get worse.smilies/cool.gif
And to fried CHC......."Frustrated gringos taking their hang-ups on us.... "
written by ch.c, May 28, 2010
then why not ask the more than 1 million braz-zeroes ILLEGALS and the more than 1 million braz-zeroes LEGALS in the USA...do the same....and go....BACK HOME ?

Same for those in Europe.

Asia is growing fast. Move there. Provided they will accept you...of course. NOT PROVEN FOR NOW !

and to Costhina....the TRANNY....no doubt you like to be fried both way ! Thus your ID is quite appropriate !

smilies/shocked.gif

Ohhhhh....smart Costinha....my country is Switzerland. Not yet part of the USA. Thus calling me a gringo is quite...laughable !
...
written by Dr.Yamaguchi, May 28, 2010

It is so amusing to read the Gaijins putting the blame for all Brazil´s woes and sorrows on Nippo Brazilians. One idiot doesn't even know that entry into the government universities is based on merit in Brazil and even the emperor of Japan does not have influence in the selection process.

dr.....
written by asp, May 28, 2010
its this guy brazuca thinking he is being sarcastic , because he detest people who want some equal oportunities for black brazilians, who are left out of a big slice of the pie.this sarcasm does get tired after a while, just ignore him

real funny joao......you will be shivering under the covers like me come monday..i did body surf some nice waves earliar in the week....
True Democracy
written by adrianerik, May 28, 2010
Regarding the article, as an absolute, unapologetic believer in the principles of democracy I would prefer to focus on projects in Salvador whereby you guys can hear FROM actual black Brazilans. (not "afrodescendentes"...believe me...black brazilians have debated and dealt with that issue a while ago).

So far ago, I believe that only Ana Paula has referred to herself in that sense.

Why not let that 7% ( a joke number but so your census claims) speak for themselves as to how they feel about Brazil's "racial democracy". Isn't that fair?
...
written by Dr.Yamaguchi, May 28, 2010

this sarcasm does get tired after a while, just ignore him


Thank you so much for your kind guidance, my honorable sir. If this Gaijin needs a lobotomia, he may seek a Nippo-Brazilian surgeon who will charge half the price he would pay in his native country.
for sure, dr yamaguchi..... ...adrian erik-
written by asp, May 28, 2010
id be happy to read any lincs you could offer up

and, id be happy to find out much more about your work and what you are doing up in salvador

just hook me up
Dr Yamaguchi...
written by Brazuca, May 29, 2010
It is so amusing to read the Gaijins putting the blame for all Brazil´s woes and sorrows on Nippo Brazilians. One idiot doesn't even know that entry into the government universities is based on merit in Brazil and even the emperor of Japan does not have influence in the selection process.


Exactly! I was making fun of the reasoning of these people by reducing their argument to absurdity -- reductio ad absurdum. And of course they're too dense to logic and reason for it to do any good, unfortunately, and seems to be happy to continue being dupes manipulated by foundations to achieve the selfish ends of the Anglo-American oligarchy.

There's an almighty struggle going on right now between the multipolarists and the unipolarists, the Anglo-Americans falling into the latter category. The multipolarists recently helped avert WWIII (Brazil featuring prominently there, together with Turkey), which bizarrely is in the interests of the unipolarists. However, let's see how this sinking of the Cheonan plays out (was it an Israeli sub?). Hopefully the multipolarists will avert war there, too.

If the multipolarists win, then it's a win for countries like Brazil, and by implication an end to the divide-and-rule efforts of such foundations as the Ford Foundation. If the unipolarists win ... then it's the end of all of us, what with 90% of us culled and the 500 million or so left serving as serfs for the uber-elite represented in the Bilderberg Group.

I'm a postmillenialist. So I'm optimistic.smilies/tongue.gif
I'm a postmillenialist. So I'm optimistic.
written by ch.c, May 29, 2010
Will then see you in years 3001 and see if fundamental changes occured.

No doubt until then that the NON Nippo Brazilians will eat daily the Nippo Brazilians all types of FRUITS AND VEGETABLES GROWN IN BRAZIL !
Without them, Brazilians vitamins would be from imported CENTRUM label vitamins. And provided free of charges from the International Community.

All Brazilians should thank the Nippo Brazilians instead of bashing them.
A well known fact that Brazilians dont like those who succeed in producing something !
Jealousy and Envy is what drive most brazilians. Suffice to look at your corruption levels. Stealing one way or the other is better than working and producing is the brazilian motto.

Stay proud.....idiots brazilians. 90 % of your grains production comes from foreign seeds companies. And 100 % of your cars production is from FOREIGN CAR MAKERS, AND ZERO FROM BRAZILIANS CARS MAKERS !
Nearly the same ratio for your trucks and locomotives.


Same for your nuclear power plants. Only 2 in a country with a 200 millions population. And for over 30 years you are promising to build the Third. Nothing on the horizon....even now, except promises promises and more promises.

Ohhhh and is your BR 163 finally 100 % fully paved NOW despite your over 30 years of promises ? And are your paved roads potholes by the millions been filled....by now ?

Ahhhh....ahhhhh !

Dont forget what De Gaulle said decades ago.....something like.....Brazil is a developing country and always will be.

Meaning that never ever will Brazil end up as a DEVELOPED NATION !

Dont worry about your scientists and engineers. They sweared and "proved" than the Brazilian ethanol is oil competitive at US$ 35.- per barrel.
Reality has shown that Cosan LOST MONEY when oil was OVER 100 dollars per barrel !

Another brazilian "fairy tale" and LIE !

Everyone has forgotten what brazilians "experts" have promised in ostriches investments, teak investments.

Ohhhh now the name of the game is Petrobras with their billions and billions barrels of VERY deep sea oil....profitable at Us$ 35.- per barrel as per Petrobras "experts" cheaters !

Cheating and lying is good. It generates BAD investments from suckers. And BAD investments generate JOBS and taxes.
But at the end reality will always surface.....sooner or later.
Meaning WRITE OFFS AND WRITE DOWNS will be the future.
And....oil spills too !

Ahhhh....ahhhh !
Philosophy 101
written by adrianerik, May 29, 2010
The problem, Boo, is not that you're postmillenialist but it is also your interpretation of Dominion Theory, which makes you no different from an authoritarian fascist. There is a battle among you Posties, isnt' there? Those who will let God bring in this 1000 years of paradise and bliss and those, like you and the nuts who influenced the Congress and Presidency, who pushed foreign policy based upon their biblical hermeneutics and multi-syllabic rantings from their eschatological fog. (after all that's the only place that soteriology has meaning...isn't it).

Listen, our foray into Iraq was based upon the inner PostM circle that surrounded Bush. And you talk about "reduction in logic"!

There is still a call by the Posties to demolish Russia because they are GOG. And obliterate China.

And you think that Petrobras' (I mean Lulas) accord with Crazy Akmaj, who has hundreds of bodies of Iranians swinging from ropes, was a good thing?

And am I the only one who knows that your advocacy of so-called "race-mixing" has an agenda very different from that "suggested" by G.F. in Casa Grande e Senzalo? Or that your subtle suggestion that "absorption" and "assimilation" is the same as "integration" has other ulterior motive. Despite the fascist undertones of the former.
The ultimate domination of the Apps versus the Dionys). (a philosphical view flawed in itself).

But, Boo, you like jazz and positive hip-hop. I like that. Check out Floetry and Jill Scott and Rakim. Read your books to some Wes Montgomery, some Chick Corea, some Coltrane, some early Miles (before he went electro-crazy), and some Pharoah Saunders. Chick Corea goes well with Beethoven and Mozart. And some of the positive hip-hop goes well Wagner (I say that with the reservations since Wagner was the favorite of two of the biggest killers in human history: Hitler and Stalin). But....can't blame the music for that. Can we?
Take your Jim Crow elsewhere...
written by Brazuca, May 29, 2010
Look, Dude. Jim Crow and Brazil just don't mix.smilies/grin.gif

The Ford Foundation gave up trying to persuade Brazilians to adopt their Jim Crow and settled instead for force-feeding it through law. But they've hit a snag. It's being challenged on constitutional grounds in the STF. (Uncomfortably for the segregationists, one of the judges hearing the case is Barbosa, who somehow managed to achieve the apparently impossible without the Foundation's help, evidently having misplaced the script!)

And the Iraq War was driven by the "inner PostM circle that surrounded Bush"?! I thought it was the Project for the New American Century who had that whole thing planned a few years earlier. And if you go back far enough, it was Netanyahu's pet project for many, many years. You'll find that it all has something to do with Likud Olami and their Greater Israel project.

Obviously Zionists depend heavily on the support of Christian Zionists in the US; but postmillenialists are by definition not Zionists. The Destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 represented the end of that covenant, so postmillenialists do not view Jews as the "chosen people", instead treating them as they would any other non-Christian. So you'll find few Zionists amongst postmillenialists.

Regarding Russia and China -- again, you're confusing postmillenialists with pre- or amellenialists. I've personally got nothing against Russia or China. In fact, as a postmillenialist I think very highly of China and am putting most of my eggs in that basket. (Some of my eggs are in Brazil.)

And, chill, I'm not into music that much. I know there are people who are into it so much that they know all there is to know about this individual or that group and about this style or that -- I only have a superficial knowledge of that stuff. If I think it's worth my time knowing and studying about all that, then I will. But right now I can't justify it and feel no pressing need to acquire that sort of knowledge.

You may remember our having a discussion on the Religion thread of the Forum and I boiled things down to the really basic fundamental level, the most basic philosophical question of how men ought to live. Ought we listen to jazz? Ought we fight for this or struggle for that or work for this or fulfil that passion? You of course got stuck. Because in reality, you have no idea what you're doing, where you're going, why you're doing what you're doing. Of course you think you're "right" ... but you have your feet firmly planted in mid-air. You're a man made of water trying to climb out of the water with a ladder made out of water. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
yeah
written by asp, May 29, 2010
i like guru, tupac, dmx, os racionais ,jz with beyonce ,actualy, i am a big break dance fan (of course james brown is the godfather).....

and ,i got to have bezeira da silva, elza soares, clara nunes, gilson peranzzetta, paulo russo, luizao maia,alcione (doing samba, not ballads) coco raises de arcoverde, aurinha do coco, luiz avilar,barrosinho, djavon etc on my box, too, and i have to see that samba with passistas at various intervals,and some nacao pernambuco , maracatu, and mangue beat from recife, and bloco afro or i start to go down

and throw in some uptempo bop , trane , miles etc and fire clave mambo gua gua co

that is my ticket
If it makes you feel any better...
written by Brazuca, May 29, 2010
... I really liked Mart'nalia's "Mart'nalia em berlim ao vivo", where she does her version of various famous Brazilian songs as well as some of her own. I particularly liked "Pra Mart'nalia" (Fred Camocho/Jorge Ariao); "Nas aguas da Amaralina" (Martinho da Vila/Nelson Rufino); "Benditas" (Mart'nalia/Zelia Duncan); "Entretanto" (Mart'nalia/Mombaca); "Pe do meu samba" (Caetano Veloso); "Renascer das cinzas" (Martinho da Vila); "Alguem me avisou" (D. Ivone Lara); "Todo menino eh um rei" (Nelson Rufina/Ze Luiz da Imperio); and finally "Chega" (Mart'nalia/Mombaca).

A Nordic-looking Lebanese fellow (yes, blue eyes and brown hair) invited me to some well-known samba club in Lapa for some birthday. All the time he was bad-mouthing it, saying this was the crappy commercialized stuff and that he really preferred going to some place in Zona Norte to hear the real, unadulterated stuff rather than the sanitized, "whitened" stuff (even though all the players that night were from Zona Norte). He very much liked to racialize things -- the "pure" "black" samba stolen by "whites" and mass produced, etc. -- and would have been disappointed at my anti-Apartheid stance. I reasoned with him briefly through the noise various times, and what I said seemed to make him stop and think, but I'm yet to shock him and explain to him that I actually don't think there are any "black" people or "white" people in Brazil! (Don't worry, y'all, it makes sense once I explain it! LOL)
The author of this article is part of the problem
written by A Brazilian, May 29, 2010
Racism is a system, and just like any system it depends on the interaction between its components in order to function.

For example, a fire only happens when there are three elements: fuel, a firestarter and oxygen. If you take one of those components out, then the "fire system" won't function.

On the other hand, racialists in general instead of simply disabling racism by doing the same thing to the "racism system", only further increase it by adding to it and enforcing arbitrary definitions.

Can you extinguish a fire by throwing more gasoline on it?

Politicians and individuals like the author aren't interested in fixing it, but instead only in exploiting it.

That's why the American race system is a joke. Any average person would see how illogical and irrational it is.

I hope the author learns something in her stay in Brazil. Americans need to learn a lot.

BTW, Gilberto Freyre is one of the finest intellectuals in Brazil. His seminal work is of a major importance. And mixing didn't happen only in the farms of the past, but it happens everyday between all kinds of people. The author really needs to do some research.
Stuck?
written by adrianerik, May 29, 2010
Nah, boo, I wasn't stuck. I remembered the reams of threads from the forums on relativism, nature of man, etc on the forums. I also remembered the hours of discussion in my courses in hermenuetics, etc. I know your conclusions and simply disagree with it.

No, I did not mix up the pre's and posts. They're mixed up. They move fluidly from one to the another. When religion is politicized and mixed with a heavy dose of eurocentricity ==> racism, then Christian philosophy is bastardized and the religion, which you feel dictates defined moral/ethical guidelines, simply serves as a free-for-all justification for the arrogant implementation of a ethnocentric society.

Pre-millenialists, who happen to be racists are then beguiled by the political manifestations of the Posties...their universities, using legislation to dominate human lives, their access and use of repression when available. The doctrinal line between the Pre's and Posties remain...The Harold Canty's and the Dr James Boices...but their political lines blur.

I know of which I speak, Boo.
...
written by adrianerik, May 29, 2010
@a brazilian

Let me add to your analogy. A social system does not simply exist by definition. A social systems manifests and sustains itself by infecting the institutions of that society: the churches, the schools, the textbooks, the accepted mythologys, the medias (radio, tv, newspapers), etc with its own reason for being.

This is a true in a racist and non-racist society.

Simply by declaring a thing not to exist does not eradicate the system. The system is self perpetuating. It is like a cancrous disease in the body that infects anything born of that body. Peter Fry, Y Maggie, Dimitri miss the point when they think that they can eliminate an existing racist system by "un"defining race.

One simply looks at Brazilian society "Any average person could see how illogical and irrational it is". "Brazilians have a lot to learn."
Adrianerik
written by A Brazilian, May 29, 2010
You either didn't understand what I said or pretend not to understand it.

The very idea of race is not scientifically sound. There is only one human race. That's why the only ones doing declarations are racialists themselves, who fabricate concepts that don't exist in reality.

The "racism system" depends on its components like any other. The way to undo it would be to gradually disable them.

For example, one of the components is the, much cherished by Americans, racial classification system. In such system the classifications of individuals are arbitrary, defined by the "Powers That Be", and strict. In other words, there can't be anything in between, it is this way or the other way (see the One Drop Rule).

This is a way of hiding the human diversity and creating the illusion that people are homogeneous and share the same characteristics.

Relaxing such definitions through mixing and gradually removing them is one way to disable racism.

There are others as well, but that's the idea. It is effective and doesn't require political activism nor expenditures with campaigns and propaganda. Actually, people can do it from their couches by living it.
...
written by asp, May 29, 2010
http://wysinger.homestead.com/...pora3.html

i think we need to take a real look at what we are talking about here

even though these photos are actualy of slaves being rescued from an arab ship, it is a very chilling reminder of what was going on in the atlantic slave trade since the 1500's

lets also read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade

just so we have a fundimental backdrop as to what we are addressing here
lets see if the linc is easiar now
written by asp, May 29, 2010
Asp
written by A Brazilian, May 29, 2010
Thousands of years ago some tribes were destroyed by the Roman Empire and the women and children sold as slaves.

Should we have affirmative action for them too?

The idea that something that happened hundreds of years ago is relevant today is ludicrous.
Slaves.
written by Ederson, May 29, 2010
Good point A BRAZILIAN. The root word of "slave" refers to the SLAVIC peoples, not African. The Vikings would kidnap Slavs and sell them to the Persians, Arabs, and people of North Africa. But around 900 AD, the Vikings discovered that the Irish also made fine slaves, as did the Scots and Pics. The big difference between the Viking and African slavers is that the Vikings went elsewhere to capture slaves; the Africans sold their own people into slavery. Either way, it was bad business.
oh is it, a brazilian
written by asp, May 29, 2010
when was salvery abolished in brazil ? 1888 ? you know they did bring slaves into porto de galinhas after that even...that isnt too long ago at all

you know, the ravages of slavery and the consequences are easily and as readily passed down generation to generation the same way wealth and power is passed down generation to generation

freed slaves didnt get any help from society, and, do you think that the masters just abandoned their outlooks of how they veiwed slaves ? sure, some very advanced minds did, but, you know many didnt , with atitudes that explain exclusion and discrimination up to today .

you see, a brazilian, any brazilian nationalist, any brazilianist, any lover of brazil with the desire to see this great nation progress into the future brining all its wonderful people along with it, has to face the legacy of slavery of brazil, on brazils terms.

forget about all this debate of who is black , who is white , who is pardo, what brazil has to face , like any country in the ameicas who brought slaves over from africa, is its slave past and the consequences of that.

i totaly agree with you, brazil is incredibly mixed , in the most beautiful and astounding way, brazil doesnt have to follow any ones lead on how to deal with their problems, but, brazil does have to deal with its slave past and how it is affecting the social dynamic right now.

things didnt magicly change into fairy land kumbyya of racial harmony and every one included in the properity.

if there was large amounts of mixture, you can believe that mixture didnt drag along with it , a place in society for the people who became more and more mixed.much of that mixture was facilitated with masters having sex with their slaves. i guarentee you, the off spring of those unions were not included in the prosperity and wealth of brazil

its just a matter of fact that any lover of brazil should only root for better ways that it can understand the events that shaped its dynamic that lead into today , so , it can deal with these truths to make a much more inclusive society for properity for all
first three parts of an interesting docu for anyone interested
written by asp, May 29, 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...embedded#!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruQEONFI2EE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDY8lfFrgWM&feature=related

...
written by asp, May 29, 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...re=related

part 5 these clips have some relevant information about what affects brazi today

its kind of a hassle to hook it all up, but, for those interested, it has great info
Asp
written by A Brazilian, May 29, 2010
You are so comical. What can I say against irrationality? You refuse to debate with arguments.

Let's see, what does "to face the legacy of slavery of brazil" really means in logical terms? Do you have a list of things? Can you enumerate them?

And who comes up with these rules anyway? And why?
you are comical , a braziian
written by asp, May 29, 2010
ive done nothing but bring in facts and youtubes from this thread and others

you just talk....you dont have the athority that antonia nobrega does, do you think ?

you couldnt way anything to reports i brought in about neo nazis attacking blacks in two differant locations in brazil

you are useless to shed any real light on the subject

you dont really have brazils interests at heart

a real brazilian nationalist wants to look at the history of the country and the real dynamic of the country

i see in this country all the time, brazilians wanting to face this reality. on tv, on public service anouncements ,in articles

to deny this is happening in brazil is what is ludicriss

i aplaud brazilians who are examining the real things in society that are affecting the country

i aplaud people like antonio nobrega who are shedding real light on the culture and its origins

who are you to think you are above these wonderful brazilian experts?
ill tell you what
written by asp, May 29, 2010
dont worry about my words, just listen to the brazilians in the docus i brought in

and, by the way, its in the laws in brazil

so, forget about me, but, you can listen to a whole lot of great brazilians talking about it

i sure am listening to them
A Brazilian
written by adrianerik, May 30, 2010
Senhor, if only it had been so easy to dismantle racism. Let me tell you my biggest disagreements with my anthropologist friends: there exist many societies in the world who have existed for many centuries, who believe in "Race" and NOT developed a system of racism...true racism...not that bullcrap of the academics. The belief that one 'race' of people are superior and another inferior. What you have decided not to deal with is the mechanics of the existing white racism and color casting of white supremacy that exists in Brazil.

The difference I see in American racism and Brazilian racism is superficial.

Brazil is not a non-color society based upon being colorless "human beings". The construction of "self" in Brazil is based upon mythologies, imbedded in your euro-centric church, your euro-centric history, your education, etc that lifts up "whiteness" and the phenotypical variants of "whiteness" and creates a pathological scramble among the "excluded" as they run from the "dirty", "dark" "valueless" cartesian opposite of your self-defined 'goodness.
...
written by A Brazilian, May 30, 2010
Brazil is not a non-color society based upon being colorless "human beings". The construction of "self" in Brazil is based upon mythologies, imbedded in your euro-centric church, your euro-centric history, your education, etc that lifts up "whiteness" and the phenotypical variants of "whiteness" and creates a pathological scramble among the "excluded" as they run from the "dirty", "dark" "valueless" cartesian opposite of your self-defined 'goodness.


Yes, Euro-centric because Brazil was created by Europeans. Indians never had a developed civilization and slaves arrived later. What is wrong with that?

You are the one associating value to color. Projecting much?

Brazil is radically different from the US. The fact that "white" is such a wide category in Brazil, with all kinds of mixes included in it, is evidence that people don't have a racialist view of it. Instead it proves that people associate the individual's color to the word that more closely resembles it, without any further reason.

A true racist, i.e., an African-American, can't accept it because in his head "colors" are the difference between "dirt" and "cleanness". And those are values to be enforced, because his existence depends on it.

Keep your African-American filth in the US, where it belongs.
tsk...tsk
written by adrianerik, May 30, 2010
It simply means that rather than "whites" rising out of their racism, they have opened their doors and pulled more into their depths.

Such as Martinique, Haiti, South Africa, etc, where color-based oppression was managed thoroughly or partly by "mesticos".

Simple!

ch.c
written by João da Silva, May 30, 2010

Cheating and lying is good. It generates BAD investments from suckers. And BAD investments generate JOBS and taxes.


Great quote, Komrad.smilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/grin.gif

As for your statement:

No doubt until then that the NON Nippo Brazilians will eat daily the Nippo Brazilians all types of FRUITS AND VEGETABLES GROWN IN BRAZIL !


You must also know that their activities are not restricted only to producing fruits and vegetables. They also make other VALUE ADDED PRODUCTS, such as Doctors,Engineers, etc; I have worked with some of them and they indeed make great team mates in any project. Cost conscious,idea generating and very focused. The first immigrants from Japan might have come to São Paulo state to dig the soil and grow the fruits and vegetables a hundred years ago. But...but... their children and grand children still maintain many virtues of their forefathers from Japan.

Joao
written by ch.c, May 31, 2010
Without the Nippo Brazilians, your country would not be as developed as it is today.
NO DOUBT !
The funny thing in Brazil is that brazilians are NEARLY ALL FROM not so long FOREIGN ANCESTRORS......and you criticize EACH other as not being TRUE brazilians. Some criticize the "blue eyes" whites, some the nippo brazilians, some criticize the blacks and others criticize....resident foreigners !
And your middle class criticizeS....the HIGHER & LOWER class regardless of the skin color or blue or briddled eyes !



Ohhhhh...to ALL BRAZILIANS.....continue to criticize YOUR OWN ANCESTRORS and CO-CITIZENS !
After all if you are not from Indian ancestrors, YOU ARE NOT A TRUE AND REAL BRAZILIAN using your own critics against other Brazilians !

Ahhhh....ahhhhh !

In short ALL BRAZILIANS NOT FROM INDIANS ANCESTRORS SHOULD LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

Hmmmmm ! Ahhhhh.....ahhhhhh !

AND Robbing Hook criticizes...THE DEVELOPED NATIONS !!
Reality being that
- without the developed nations, Brazil would not be where it is today, while developed nations would be where they are today WITHOUT BRAZIL !
- Brazil could no longer be in development in the years ahead without MORE MONEY from developed nations and without their actual and futures technologies !

Fact being that Brazil is JUST A LARGE GARDEN and brazilians are SECOND CLASS gardeners using foreign developed seeds and tools.

And I must underline that you are not very productive PER HECTARE !
Reality being that using your own CEPEA as source, it comes out that your national wheat production per hectare is just above 2 tonnes. Against 6 tons in my country.
Potatoes production is around 25 tons per hectare in Brazil. Against 42 tons in my country !
Corn production is around 3-4 tons per hectare in Brazil. Against well above 8 tons in my country !
Better yet, most of your grains exports to developed nations are for ANIMALS FEEDS......NOT HUMAN CONSUMPTION !


And concerning your mega production of sugarcane it is either for local consumption or export to NON DEVELOPED NATIONS.

Europe is producing more than enough sugar !
We even reduced our production....to let YOU produce more ! Ahhhh....ahhhh !

Keep working harder and harder.....using OUR INPUTS !
Without OUR inputs, Brazil would have a much much lower OUTPUT than your existing one, already not that great....as stated above !

YOU depend on us and not the opposite, regardless of what you may pretend or read time and again !

MOST MEGA POPULATION COUNTRIES HAVE THEIR OWN CAR MAKERS.
NOT BRAZIL !!
Proof that Brazil REMAINS A SECOND CLASS BACKWARD COUNTRY FOR YEARS TO COME......until proven otherwise !

And as to your actual or future OIL production ? Welllll.....look at Iran or Nigeria or Angola ! None are developed countries.....to my knowledge !
Better yet, even assuming the most rosy scenario for your future oil production.....ON A PER CAPITA BASIS.....IT IS NOT MUCH.....FOR SURE !
Ohhhh and your oil production costs will be VERY VERY HIGH in view of its depth. Reducing further the PER CAPITA BENEFITS !

The actual Gulf oil spill is just a sample of what is going to happen in BRAZIL !!!
Even blue eyes brazilians will have their skin DARK BLACK....after a day at the beach ! And it wont be suntan lotion ! Smiles !

Keep dreaming and dancing the Bossa Nova !

It was just a tit and tat !



Dsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/wink.gifsmilies/wink.gif
ch.c
written by Ederson, May 31, 2010
Okay, granted Brasil is far from perfect. But you just wait until Brasil gets those 36 new French Rafales, the four French submarines and a fifth that will be converted to nuclear power with French help. Just wait until Brasil finally modernizes the old, surplus French aircraft carrier that is so desperately needed. [Zimbabwe doesn't even have an aircraft carrier!] And that isn't even to mention the new French helicopters! I could add a lot more, but I'm so busy searching for a French flag to raise in my yard that I don't have the time.
Can you imagine a better way in which to spend a surplus? smilies/sad.gif
Ederson
written by ch.c, May 31, 2010
And do you strongly believe that with 36 French Rafales Brazil will go a long way....if war occur, even more so in such a large country ???????? Ahhhh....ahhhhh !
Keep dreaming and dancing the Bossa Nova

Same for your french submarines. First you should review what was clearly stated from the french side. Namely they will provide the design but NOT the NUCLEAR technology.
So, humbly, my view is that your nuclear powered submarineS working effectively will remain...A FAIRY TALE FOR FAR LONGER YOUR MIND CAN LOOK INTO THE FUTURE !
Somewhat similar to your nuclear powered plant Angra do Reis III !
Talked talked, talk talk talk and still not built 20 years later !

In Brazil promises tend to remain eternal promises. Rarely a reality.
Just as your over 30 years promises of paving entirely BR 163 !
Still not entirely paved to my knowledge !

So your...JUST WAIT THIS AND THAT....certainly doesnt impress me !

Furthermore you stated yourself how right I was in my initial arguments : ALL BRAZILIANS CAN DO IS BUY FOREIGN TECHNOLGIES....BUT NOT DEVELOP THEIR OWN !
You get lost in your own argumentation. Sorry for you !

And this is as true for cars and trucks manufacturing. As true for tractors and harvesters. Also True for seeds, pesticides, fongicides, meds, services of whatever. True for semiconductors, mobile phones, TVs, etc etc.
But for pollution per unit of production you shine.
Normal when using OLDER technolgies. Ahhhh.....ahhhhh !

You have "sweared to God and under oath" thousands of times that your ethanol is oil competitive at US$ 35.- per barrel.
But reality was quite different as usual. Cosan lost money in 2008 when the daily average price for oil was 99.- dollars !
Yeaps...Ederson ! Was there a manipulation of your software ?
Or simply a PURE BRAZILIAN LIE....AS USUAL ?

I can continue on and on and on.
Even your "Magical & World Best" Flex fuel engines were not invented by brazilians engineers.....contrary to what Braz-zeroes pretended thousand and thousand of times.
Your own dept of sciences awarded the medal to BOSCH AG !
I did not know that BOSCH AG was a brazilian company.
I thought it was and still is a GERMAN COMPANY !
But You Ederson the Braz-zero who knows better, please tell us !

Ohhhh and a "little" additional detail :
- while the world best brazilian engineers have not yet developed their first nuclear power plant, my midget country, with 1/25th the brazilian population, have developed their own nuclear power plants TECHNOLOGY....DECADES AGO !
Yesss...we built 5 nuclear power plants with OUR technology.
BRAZIL ZERO...FOR THE TIME BEING !!

Idiots are always 1000000 % certain that right they are !
Losers always pretend time and again that tomorrow will be different.
And 100 years later their grand children continue to insinuate....THE SAME !
My answer to their answer is.....NORMAL....WHAT ELSE CAN/COULD YOU SAY ?

And the Technologies of tomorrow are NOT in the BRIC countries, wether you like or not !

AND THE WORLD GOES ON !

The Chinese President said a few years ago....China needs to produce and export 800 millions pairs of socks....to buy 1 latest Boeing or Airbus !

And Brazil is Nooooo different ! 10 tons of animal grains feeds against ONE Rolex !! Guess who needs the most capital, generates the most profits on ROI and the best salaries for employees and management !!!!
Worse than that.....Brazil cant even produce cheap watches produced in China, Taiwan or Thailand !
And in technolgies in the BRIC club, orverall, you are well behind China and Russia. And India is progressing at a fast clip, therefore will shortly surpass Brazil if not already done. Afterall they are good in software development due to their cheap educated labor. They Mastermind the atomic bomb, not Brazil. India has a vast industry of cars and trucks manufacturers, not Brazil ! Agreed their cars are still lousy...but they learn fast. They even bought Jaguar and Range Rover !
And India is getting better and bigger in the drugs industry, not Brazil ! If you disagree...please spell a brazilian drug maker company LISTED in the BOVESPA !

Ederson and el al braz-zeroes YOU ARE JUST A BACKWARD country.
And because your country has a very large population, foreign companies obviously have a good reason to produce IN YOUR COUNTRY.
- Not only to avoid the mega brazilians imports taxes, such as about 100 % for foreign cars not even the luxurious ones, and far more than 100 % for luxurious ones.
- Foreign companies produce goods your local companies are unable to produce at the same price/quality and that you the citizens are willing to buy.
Even in ready to eat foods products. After all Nestlé alone has now 28 manufacturing plants in Brazil. NONE of them with Brazilian money funding ! And No Brazilian technologies either !! This is just one example within hundreds others !

ch.c
written by Ederson, May 31, 2010
The French would never share or transfer nuclear technology? Israel and Iraq were anomalies, as are a number of transfer programs the French are believed to be involved in? Great. I feel better.
Okay, Brasil has problems, I agree. But the Bossa Nove and Samba more than make up for it. In addition, Brasil will soon be a complete strategic partner of France with all of the many benefits thereof.
You are just jealous!
Actually, ch.c, you kind of made my point. Thanks. smilies/wink.gif
continued for Ederson
written by ch.c, May 31, 2010
We all know how smart you are....looking hard for a french flag.
So why dont you take an old towel and paint it in blue, white and red ?
Simple isnt it ?
Or you may as well buy one in any shipshandler around the globe or in Brazil and buying it from Internet !

You see, me the idiot, did not need to have gone to the SP Univeristy to find simple solutions to my simple problems.

But you a very right to compare Brazil and Zimbabwe. After all you are both the world champions historically for having added then substracted so many zeroes in your local currencies !

As to aircraft carriers, neither Zimbabwe nor my country Switzerland are ever going to buy an old or new one, be it
French or not !
For my country it would not be a question of costs BUT....Where would we put them ? In our lakes ? Hmmmmm !

And as to the French-Brazilian deals on armaments, what will Brazil get in reciprocal trade ?
NEXT TO NOTHING....AT BEST !
France is the country getting by far the biggest European Union subsidizes on agriculture and there is no value added products Brazil could sell them !
May be a few millions brazilians tangas...MADE IN CHINA....NOT BRAZIL !
And lets be fair but the french lingerie and/or women underwears or clothes are still the world best ! Not necessarily in quality but in overall design, textures, textiles,shapes and fashions !

I from my side will put a flag in my backyard for Argentina red meats. Truly delicious and so much superior quality to Brazilian meats....when Argentina meats are not banned due to sanitation reasons.
So when Argentina meat is banned I will lower their flag.


smilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/grin.gif
you're killing me ch.c!
written by Ederson, May 31, 2010
Okay! Beat me down, tear Brasil apart, praise Argentinian beef, but be careful when disgracing the University of Sao Paulo!smilies/wink.gif My sense of humor only extends so far!
Ch.c, do you take me for a simple idiot? I might be a peasant, but a flag worthy of being called French cannot be constructed from a towel. Have you no sense of etiquette? We are speaking of the cradle of western civilization! Merci!
I am also shocked that you believe Brasil will get nothing from this purchase of magnificent French arms! The parade value alone is enormous.
You are a man after my own heart, ch.c; maybe the French aren't the strategic partners for Brasil that the press releases might lead us to believe, but the bikini did originate from there, so even in light of their many failures, we must still give the French some credit for their magnificent contribution to culture. smilies/wink.gif
ch.c
written by Ederson, June 01, 2010
My family, [the Hoovers] left Switzerland long ago. Some think they wanted a warmer climate and their own farm. I think they wanted to learn the Samba.smilies/wink.gif
ederson
written by asp, June 01, 2010
that was my reason..............
Ederson
written by João da Silva, June 01, 2010

maybe the French aren't the strategic partners for Brasil that the press releases might lead us to believe, but the bikini did originate from there, so even in light of their many failures, we must still give the French some credit for their magnificent contribution to culture.


After carefully reading the exchange of though provoking and highly informative comments between you and Komrad ch.c, I am of the humble opinion that we should further expand our strategic partnership with France by importing their know-how to manufacture Bikinis,lingerie, garter belts and other stuff. Perhaps, ch.c will use his influence among his banker friends to lend money at 1.7% a year interest rate?

Oh, another question to a better informed peasant like you:

Don´t the French have the technical know-how to develop amphibious air craft carriers and subs exclusively for landlocked countries like Switzerland and Paraguay?
If it's French, buy it!
written by Ederson, June 01, 2010
Joao! You've done it again! There is now ample evidence, at least from the Brazilian politician's point of view, that owning a retired French aircraft carrier makes you taller, wiser, more attractive, and restores significant hair loss. That alone should be enough of a reason to buy an older, surplus French aircraft carrier for Lake Geneva.
Before the idea is dismissed as ridiculous, I think the Swiss government ought to query their short, fat, dumb, and bald citizens and see what they think. If it works in Brasil, it might work elsewhere. Don't the Swiss want to be taller?smilies/wink.gif
Cradle of Civilization
written by Simpleton, June 01, 2010
Sorry Eddie but I simply must disagree with your assertion that the French in anyway represent the cradle of civilization. I have found them to be the absolutely least civil people on the planet that I have encountered to date. Just because one does not speak French? The pasty white Portuguese in Rio are not far behind. I've truly enjoyed their company on rare occasion but I had to be darn certain I divorced / separated / distanced myself from the brasileiros that with apparently good reason despise them. I think that's more based on caste / caste envy / caste behavior than on fascism or melanin.

As to textiles in Brasil, it was a very booming industry there in the past. I know retired folks now in their 70's that are collecting relatively decent pensions from having been lowly workers in that arena. Can it possibly return and be competitive again in any significant way? Not with the current work ethics of the greater populace.

Anyway, asp, our preferences for music aren't in vogue / what's clicking these days. Check out the AfroReggae driven social progress being pushed forward in places like Favela Vigario Geral where I spent a pretty good chunk of Carneval week this past year. I see G1.Globo has an article on it today.
Does Anybody Wants to Do the Rebolation?
written by fried CHC, June 01, 2010


Butt....butt....butt

Costinha
Rebolation?
written by Simpleton, June 01, 2010
No thanks Costinha, I prefer "A Mulher" (when I can afford it) - Here's the real story for that good old popular tune:

CUSTO A MULHER (POR ANO):

Uma Mulher (Esposa) R$ 130,400
Dois Mulher (Namorada) R$ 4000
Tres Mulher (Amante) R$ 15,000
Quatro Mulher (Empregada) R$ 6,630
Cinco Mulher (Escrava) R$ 0
Seis Mulher (Enfermeira) R$ 27,400 (Com Mama Molhada?)
Sete Mulher (Advogada) Tudo O Resto De Sua Dinheiro! (Importante)

Agora todo mundo canta: "A Mulher, A Mulher, A Mulher!"
Joao and Ederson on SUBMARINES FOR LAKES
written by ch.c, June 02, 2010

Welllll....wellllll......you are for sure not familiar with my country.

Never ever heard about PICARD ?? You should ! A GENIUS !
Even inspired to become the Pr Tournesol...in the TINTIN serie !

A Swiss at the forefront on submarines deep depth...DECADES AGO ! WORLD RECORD !

Even today his grand son is doing some different world records, not necessarily with submarines. He is preparing an NON STOP Around the World with a SOLAR PLANE !!!!
And already made a world record with a Around the World on an air balloon !

smilies/grin.gif but very true !!!!

And Joao, you have a short memory that even without sea access, THE SWISS WON TWICE THE AMERICA CUP !!!!
Ahhh....ahhhh !
Ohhhhhh....where do stand the Braz-zeroes with their 7000 kms of ocean border ?????
smilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/shocked.gif

And to Ederson....if you like french...tell them to become tourists in Brazil.
French are ranked as the World Worst Tourists...if you did not know !
smilies/grin.gif but very true too.

And also very true......the latest rumor ( I repeat....RUMOR) IS that FRANCE MAY LOSE THEIR TRIPLE A RATING !

Back to Joao on the Euro.....
Do you recall when I, ch.c., had written here at the end of 2008 on the euro, well before THE RECENT NEWS became fashionable ?
Stating that there is no such thing as the EURO ?
That the euro currency is basically THE STRONG GERMAN CURRENCY to which all other euro BAD currencies are glued ?

Welllll...here you have it now...for the last 6 months ! Starting with Greece, followed now by Portugal and Spain and sooner or later
by Ireland, Italy and...FRANCE !

The APEX of currencies crisis are most of the time in the September - November months.
What an interesting period ! Time will tell !

And had I not said that America is the World Best EMERGING COUNTRY ?

HERE YOU HAVE IT NOW !!!!

And a last remark to Ederson on his France...the cradle of Western Civilization !!!
I bet that your University SP teachers never ever heard about Romans and Greeks !
Ahhh....ahhhhh

And just read Ricardo Amaral articles. His great great great grand sons will even pretend that the Western Civilization started in....BRAZIL !


Were you a student at the U. SP, a teacher or a canteen dishes cleaner ?
smilies/shocked.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gif
The Swiss attack Brazil!
written by Ederson, June 02, 2010
ch.c! You can just keep your Mr. Picard! We have Antonio Carlos Jombin, Helio Castroneves, and the Girl of from Impanema!smilies/wink.gif I haven't heard of any "Girl From Lake Geneva!"
And there's nothing worse than the Swiss when they're right! No one likes them; that Swiss pilot is flying around the world because he can't find any country that will let him land, no doubt! Everyone just keeps telling him to keep on moving.
Yeah, something else! Dishwashing is a skilled art, bordering on science, when I do it. Ask my wife!
smilies/cheesy.gif
Other than those few miracles you've just described, few good things have ever come out of Switzerland other than my family.smilies/cheesy.gif
The Swiss are just, again, jealous!
You're killing me, ch.c! Romans. Greeks? Aren't they some minor province of France?smilies/cheesy.gif
ch.c
written by João da Silva, June 02, 2010

Back to Joao on the Euro.....
Do you recall when I, ch.c., had written here at the end of 2008 on the euro, well before THE RECENT NEWS became fashionable ?
Stating that there is no such thing as the EURO ?
That the euro currency is basically THE STRONG GERMAN CURRENCY to which all other euro BAD currencies are glued ?


You dont have to remind me, Komrad. I distinctly remember your repeated advice! Also I still get the uneasy feeling about the "20 year cycle" of the Brasilian bank accounts being frozen.smilies/sad.gif As you may recall, in 2011, it will be 20 years since the last "confiscation".smilies/angry.gif
confiscation
written by Ederson, June 02, 2010
ch.c, you made my day. Thanks.smilies/angry.gif
ch.c
written by João da Silva, June 02, 2010

Never ever heard about PICARD ?? You should ! A GENIUS !


When Mr.Picard lands his Solar powered plane in our city, I shall be happy to make his acquaintance and serve him with some cachaça.smilies/cheesy.gif
...
written by Fergie, June 03, 2010
The difference between Brazil and the US is that after slavery was abolished in the US, private groups and the churches setup programs to start educating the blacks. In Brazil, there was nothing done to help the blacks after slavery was abolished in that country. The few that were lucky enough to get an education developed a stigma about being black and refused to call themselves blacks. This is why a state like Bahia that is eighty five per cent black has hardly no elected officials. Many blacks in Brazil don't call themselves black like in the US. This is true for many Latin American countries where the blacks practiced self hate and refused to be call black. I know a family that came to the US, his father told one of his son that ware make racial comments about the blacks in the US, that he was black, he bugged out.
Fergie
written by A Brazilian, June 03, 2010
In the US calling someone "black" has nothing with to do with education. As a matter of fact if people were indeed educated they wouldn't call mixed individuals black because that's not biologically correct.

In the US the ODR is used to this day to segregate people according to ideals of racial purity. That's the only reason race is such a big deal for Americans.

Playing this game does nothing to solve racism because it is not disabling it, it is just building on top of it.

The rest of your comment is worthless. Affirmations without anything to back it up and other non-sense.
...
written by Fergie, June 03, 2010
I don't think you understand what I am talking about,how you sell people like livestock and tell them they free without giving them help. You can't understand how three hundred years of slavery impacted these people.
Fergie
written by A Brazilian, June 03, 2010
Nobody alive today was sold or lived slavery. As a matter of fact they are better off today than the wealthy individuals were like 200 years ago in terms of access to education and quality of life.

It is no excuse.

You adhere to this One Drop Rule for two reasons: either someone does it because he IS an old-fashioned racist and truly believes that races are different and must be treated differently, or someone has a political agenda and thinks he can use it for his own gain.

Either way the people loses.
brasileiro é racista sim, e como!
written by Joelma, June 03, 2010
You can see more black people in American sitcoms than on Brazilian soap operas. They are racists.
PLEASE MAKE SOME SENSE!
written by Brazuca, June 04, 2010
This is why a state like Bahia that is eighty five per cent black has hardly no elected officials.


But according to the one-drop rule, Bahia's elected representatives are ALL "black", since they'd all no doubt have at least one drop of "black" blood running through their veins.

So what are you complaining about?! You say that Brazil is racist because there are few elected "black" representatives, and an adoption of the one-drop rule will fix this. But when we adopt the one-drop rule -- we suddenly find that the majority of Brazil's elected representatives are "black"! So you end up taking two steps forward ... only to immediately take two steps back!

What the hell are you people trying to do? Do you even want to make sense?! Do even care whether you make any sense or not?! Does reason and logic mean anything to you people?! What exactly have you got against making sense?!

You can see more black people in American sitcoms than on Brazilian soap operas. They are racists.


According to the one-drop rule, pretty much all of those actors on Brazilian soap operas are "black".

Interestingly, many of them had no trouble passing themselves off as Indians in the recent and successful soap opera Caminho das Indias. I remember about a day or two after arriving in Brazil in January 2009 watching on television as these actors, in India, were being interviewed behind the scenes about the making of the soap opera. To my surprise and confusion, these Indians -- dressed as Indians -- were speaking in Portuguese! I speculated that they may be Indians from Goa, which was a Portuguese territory for many centuries. But as I continued to listen, the Portuguese these Indians were speaking was decidedly Brazilian; the accents were Brazilian. It was only when the novela started soon after that the cloud causing my confusion was lifted. These were Brazilian actors dressed up as Indians! And pretty much all of them looked convincingly Indian ... except when they tried to dance like Indians, perhaps (though there was a Brazilian child actress who seemed to have mastered Indian dancing perfectly, and the audience was frequently treated to brief performances by her usually when the scene switched back to India). It ought to be kept in mind that novela actors are recycled time and time again, being the same faces over and over again. And these regularly featured actors were so Nordic in appearance that they had no trouble passing themselves off as Indians! I've never heard anyone yet try to describe Indians as being "white"!

Also, I remember talking to someone who'd probably be considered a member of the elite in Brazil; he was high up in management in Seguros Generali do Brasil. He had a German surname (he later informed me he was of Swiss background) and was completely Nordic in appearance -- blue eyes, brown hair, ruddy skin. While conversing once, he spoke of his sister being morena. I was surprised and wondered how this could be. He explained that one of his great-grandfathers was black, or a slave -- I can't remember which. To try and surprise him in turn, I suggested, "Do you know in America you'd probably be considered "black", because over there they've traditionally had this thing called the one-drop rule, which means that if you have one drop of black blood from your forbears, then you're black." Instead of surprise, he just shrugged indifferently and said, "probably".

But this anecdote just goes to show that in Brazil, many of the Nordic-looking people are actually "black" -- if we are going to insist on applying the American understanding of what constitutes "white" and "black". And if this is the case, then why complain about the lack of "blacks" on the soapies when it is quite likely that ALL of the actors are "black"?!

So please, people, MAKE SOME SENSE!
"Black" leading ladies, Gloria Maria, etc.
written by Brazuca, June 04, 2010
Speaking of novelas, the leading lady in the most recent novela during the horario nobre was Thais Araujo -- considered "black" in anybody's book. The segregationists here will be unhappy to learn that her character in the novela was married to a "white" billionaire ... though strictly speaking, if we were to adopt the American one-drop rule, he would most likely be "black" himself.

Incidentally, I celebrated reveillon in a new club in Barra, which is half open-air (as you exit the tunnel to enter Barra and descend on that long bridge, it is on the left with a thatched roof). I was invited by a friend who's friend owns it and it was the club's inaugural night (I can't remember what it's called, but I think it has the word "Ibiza" in it).

Anyway, the actors who play the parents of Thais Araujo's character were attending the night, as it was a semi-beautiful-people event (somehow I and my housemates and their friends made it in, thought the photographer going around taking pictures for some gossip mag didn't stop to take any pictures of us). Brazilians and Americans would be in agreement that these actors are of course "black", the female one being quite tall and having been a professional volleyball player who represented Brazil. The segregationists here will be bitterly disappointed to learn that the respective partners of these actors were decidedly "white", one being blonde.

In another novela that started earlier (there are four back-to-back novelas six days a week!). I think this novela was called Caras e Bocas, and all of the leading actress's children were preto/mulato, from her character's former marriage to a preto. (But of course most, if not all, of the actors on that program, even if appearing Nordic, would have been "black" if we were to adopt the American one-drop rule.)

And speaking of the supposed "black-out" on Brazilian television, who is perhaps the most prominent and respected of Rede Globo's reporters and presenters, perhaps over the last decade or two? Why, Gloria Maria, of course! And she's "black" in anybody's book!
f**k this "one drop" bulls**t
written by asp, June 04, 2010
that is a left over from bulls**t from the south jim crow laws

it has absulutly no relevance in these issues , so please shove it

id like for you, brazuca , to give your perspective of what happened to freed slaves, just so i can get some idea of what you think about reality

anybody who thimks brazilian tv is hunky dorey with great representation of black brazilians has bats in the belfry

the only real black tv in brazil are imports of american tv shows like "everybody hates chris", which they run back to back on record , comercial free every day in the business week.

the rest of brazil tv looks like "post julia" tv on america , where after the first american tv show with a leading black actress, you suddenly had a bunch of shows with "token " black actors in parts, and some leads like bill cosby in i spy.

i mean america, with all its racist to the bone reality, celibrated its black artists like loius armstrong and duke ellington,and, nat king cole ,in the late twenties and thirties....that didnt diminish its horrible racism and discrimination against black americans one iota
Then walk the walk...
written by Brazuca, June 04, 2010
If you don't believe in the one-drop rule, asp, then why don't you accept the simple fact that "blacks" in Brazil are a small minority of only 6% or thereabouts?
Please learn to make sense!
written by Brazuca, June 04, 2010
i mean america, with all its racist to the bone reality, celibrated its black artists like loius armstrong and duke ellington,and, nat king cole ,in the late twenties and thirties....that didnt diminish its horrible racism and discrimination against black americans one iota


Let me see if I get this straight. The prominence of "black" artists like the ones you mention in the 1920s did not diminish the racism of "black" Americans "one iota". But if the prominence of the 6% of "blacks" in Brazil is increased, it will make all the difference to the alleged discrimination they face?

If what you're so proud of America didn't give "one iota" of benefit, why suggest the same for Brazil if not "one iota" of benefit will come from it?

When are you going to start making sense?

By the way, you keep talking about "blacks" being the poorest, and this is because of the legacy of slavery, and that they make the overhwelming majority of those in the favelas and in jail, etc. But the reality is, the nordestinos are the poorest, and they make up the majority of those in the favelas, from what I saw (by nordestinos, I mean those of the sertanejo). I would go through the large favela Rio das Pedras every week, for example, on my way to Freguesia and I barely saw any "blacks" -- mostly nordestinos. While I never went into Rocinha, I went past it all the time, the bus stopping right in front of it routinely; and from the passengers who got on and off at that point, I saw few "blacks".

When I went up Cantagalo favela in Copacabana in early February in 2009 (before the UPP was installed in November 2009), the people looked just as they did on the street, that is, few "blacks". But as I went deeper, I reached a sort of small square where I saw of group of "black" teenaged boys sitting around. They greeted the person who was walking in front of me with his shopping. But as I walked on following him, I heard a very small pebble bouncing behind me, having evidently been thrown in my direction. Now, this may not seem much, just some play larking from some teens, but by Brazilian standards this was very aggressive. I didn't look back and kept walking and looked eagerly for the next exit, which I eventually found. It subsequently occurred to me that having gone that deep, it would have been obvious to them that I wasn't a local; I'd notice how quickly porteiros around the neighborhood you live would very quickly come to recognize you, even if you were one of the hundreds, if not thousands, of people who live there, given the population density of apartment living.

So anyway, Cantagalo favela was the only one where I saw an actual group of "blacks" together, as opposed to the one or two you'll see around. Other than that, nordestinos overwhelmingly make up the favelados, at least in Zona Sul and Zona Oueste.

brazuca, stop putting your percentages on my arguments...
written by asp, June 04, 2010
i dont buy your perecntages or your twisted arguments

what happened to the slaves when they were freed in brazil ? tell me how they were worked into the fabric of society

ive already told you that brazil is one of the most mixed countries in the world , but, that mixing that went on with african slaves, only sentenced those mixed to poverty. it just expanded the affects that bringing african slaves in the country caused ...which happened to any country that brought slaves to the americas. all these countries have to face up to these realities to bring all their citizens along with them for prosperity for all

and very concerned brazilians are talking about this and understand it and i listen to them, not to you

dont bulls**t me trying to press my arguments into your f**ked up logic with your references to "one drop", "6% pure black". that is not what im saying, im saying you cant deny the affects that bringing african slaves , and, not working them into society , when freed , has had.

ive been to the northeast more than you have and you can definitly see many citizens that are definitly black by any strech of the definition.

i dont go by blood percentages, i go by vision. you just have to use your eyes to see most faces on tv are white by any definition and most faces in congress are white, and most university students are white and most people flying on the airlines are white and most people in gated condominiums are white.

you can nitpick all you want, thank god for the incredible mixture in brazil, f**k the ford foundation and brazil knows how to cope with its problems, and doesnt need anybody from the outside telling them what they hage to do...

but it has to deal with the reality of its history and how it is playing out in every day life for the people who live here
...
written by Fergie, June 04, 2010
@ASP, for a long time there was a stigma attached to being black in Brazil. Many physical black Brazilians didn't not want to be called black and lived in a denial of themselves. In the Brazil, the dark skin Brazilians know their place in this country. I went into a restaurant in Rio and I am dark skin but everyone came up to me trying to talk English. I looked around in the restaurant and saw that I was a fly in a bowel of milk. A German man walk over to me and asked me what part of the states I came from. I asked him how did he know I was from the US and he said because black Brazilians don't come in these restaurants on the COPE. I have been told that the relationship between the blacks and the plantation owners and the workers are almost like slavery. For a long time the only blacks that have moved up the ladder are one who had white family members. I met such family that grandfather came from Europe and had three children with this black woman, he left them land so they were able to move up the ladder.
I asked him why they look down on the blacks like he did even though he was black. This person bugged out and would not talk to me for five days. I think that you should look at the pathology of the blacks in Brazil and then you would understand what many of us on the page are trying to articulated.
RIO DE FAVELERO
written by Joelma, June 04, 2010
Go to your morro and shut up. smilies/tongue.gif
Follow the Flying Bullets
written by adrianerik, June 04, 2010
If you want to find the "negros" in the favelas...just follow the PM in Rio and Sao Paulo when they invade. Their bullets are very good at zigging and zagging around all of those "non" negros Peter de Mambla "didn't" see and finding "dark meat". Of course, those bullets "only" hit 'traficantes', even the ones who have jobs or are students or are dentists or are motorboys, working hard for a living.

In Sao Paulo, 50% of the massacres of dark bodies are committed by those PM. In Salvador, a few weeks ago, they murdered 17, then the next week they murdered 9. Shooting them in the armpits with arms raised, tearing them from their parents arms and shooting them in the face, shooting three of my kids returning from work, shooting 14 and 15 teen-age girls and hiding their bodies in the bushes.

What a f**king ee-dee-it!

In 1930's America, if you went through the poor American south would find mostly poor whites. You would find crime committed mostly by the dirt poor Irish (in the South and in the Northern ghettoes), yet the bullets of the rabid policemen only found black meat.

In 1915 America, W.E.B Dubois went to the University of Pennsyslvania, literally created the field of investigative sociology, Paul Robeson was a Rhodes Scholar, Ida B Wells was a master journalist, Mary Church Terrell was a Harvard graduate, George Washington Carver was a master scientists....and racism was alive and well!!!

Eee--dee--it! Talk some f**king sense.

The difference between racism in Brazil and the U.S. is superficial.

Your census figures represent a slice of Brazil under seige. Yet, even taking the absurd figure...so what? African Americans in 1915 were 7% of the population (including everyone from blue-black to passing white). We were numerically less than the 6% (ridiculous!!!) of "negro" Brazilians. So what!!!!! Even the absurdity is absurd!

Numbers totally at odds with the multi-hued reality of those who fight against racism and social injustice in Brazil.

Numbers tossed about by the racists, minimalists and apologists.
The japinhas will give you your answer
written by Brazuca, June 04, 2010
you can nitpick all you want, thank god for the incredible mixture in brazil, f**k the ford foundation and brazil knows how to cope with its problems, and doesnt need anybody from the outside telling them what they hage to do...

but it has to deal with the reality of its history and how it is playing out in every day life for the people who live here


You just contradicted yourself there! Anyway, after you find the answer to the question why japinhas make up 20% of students at USP when they constitute 1% of the populations, you'll find the answer to your constant question. First answer the japinha question and the other one will take care of itself.
Class is the issue
written by Brazuca, June 04, 2010
Many physical black Brazilians didn't not want to be called black and lived in a denial of themselves
.

The Brazilians do not subscribe to the notion of hypodescent, so one drop of "black" blood does not necessarily make you "black" by that fact. So what many people consider "black" in the US simply would not be considered "black" in Brazil, for the simple reason that Brazilians do not subscribe to the racist notion of hypodescent (I've already explained why hypodescent is by definition racist). Beyonce Knowles would not be considered "black" in Brazil for the simple reason that she's not; remember, the one-drop rule does not operate in Brazil! Kelly Rowland, on the other hand, would be "black". Colin Powell would not be considered a "black" in Brazil but a mulato, for the simple reason that that's what he is! Again, the hypodescent paradigm is not operative in Brazil. To an American steeped in the racist notions of hypodescent, this might seem like denialism. But it is in reality a rejection of the notions of "white" supremacy inherent in the idea of hypodescent.

I went into a restaurant in Rio and I am dark skin but everyone came up to me trying to talk English. I looked around in the restaurant and saw that I was a fly in a bowel of milk. A German man walk over to me and asked me what part of the states I came from. I asked him how did he know I was from the US and he said because black Brazilians don't come in these restaurants on the COPE


Let me translate things for you: people who are poor don't go into restaurants! Get it? Poor "whites", poor nordestinos, poor whatever would not go into those restaurants. The issue was class. If the issue was race, then you would have been barred from entering the restaurant a la Jim Crow segregation laws or the Apartheid laws of South Africa. But Brazil simply never has had any such laws. If you have the money, you enter wherever you like. Simple as that.

I have been told that the relationship between the blacks and the plantation owners and the workers are almost like slavery


How so? Labor is not free? It's indentured servitude? And are these workers exclusively "black"? Or are they every color under the rainbow?

I met such family that grandfather came from Europe and had three children with this black woman, he left them land so they were able to move up the ladder. I asked him why they look down on the blacks like he did even though he was black.


You really need to understand that hypodescent (e.g., one-drop rule) is not operative in Brazil. Also, "white" and "black" to describe people may be used as metaphors. Somebody may be born "black" but end up "white". How? He may become wealthy later on in life and therefore be metaphorically "white". "Money whitens" is a saying in Brazil. To translate it so that Americans may better be able to understand its import, it would be like saying, "diligent study makes your eyes go slanty", alluding to the disproportionate academic success of Asians in countries like the US, Australia, Brazil, etc. People look down on the poor, and this is universal, not something unique to Brazil. If you're Aryan and you're poor in Brazil, the wealthy will look down on you.

I think that you should look at the pathology of the blacks in Brazil and then you would understand what many of us on the page are trying to articulated.


I don't ascribe the wrong cause to the effect. Brazil has many poor. The solution lies not in dividing the people up and bringing in Jim Crow and the racism of hypodescent, but in concentrating on development, on economic growth, on a concerted effort to improve education, etc. Brazil is continuing to improve on all this as it grows, but it seems to me the political elite seem to lack the maturity to smell a foreign attempt to sow divisions for strategic reasons.

The Chinese government full well knows why the Anglo-Americans support the Tibet cause (but not the Basque or the Northern Ireland cause) and who funds the Uighur separatist movement. The Russian government fully well knows who's behind the Islamic groups sowing terror in its soft underbelly, the Caucusus region. It's called destabilization, and it's used for strategic reasons by governments (or the elites behind them) not averse to hitting below the belt.

The Brazilian government seems to be blind to this long-term destablization effort carried out against a major emerging power, and it reflects badly on them. Let's hope they'll mature a bit more and become more sophisticated.
O BOPE Vai Te Pegar!
written by Brazuca, June 04, 2010
BOPE is an assassination squad. If you want your students arrested, talk to CORE (or whatever equivalent they have in Bahia).

Homem de Preto, qual é sua missão?
Entrar pela favela e deixar corpos no chão!
Homem de Preto, que é que você faz?
Eu faço coisas que assusta o Satanás!


I suppose I need not add that Os Homems de Preto are all "black" if we for the moment adopt the American one-drop rule.
...
written by asp, June 05, 2010
"You just contradicted yourself there! Anyway, after you find the answer to the question why japinhas make up 20% of students at USP when they constitute 1% of the populations, you'll find the answer to your constant question. First answer the japinha question and the other one will take care of itself. "

what a peice of crap for an answer

no, you answer the question i asked you . slavery has nothing to do with japanese immigration. people who had a choice about immigrating, built a network of family and freinds, and , had a chance to bring recourses

seriously, brazuca, you are the least important opinion about brazil i will ever listen to. how long were you there? and you run off at the mouth like you really know what is going on...

like i said, i listen to brazilians about it, and, for every one that thinks like you, there are 10 that are understanding that they have to deal with issues that relate to slavery , culture , discrimination and prejudice...its in the laws, what the f**k does that tell you ? prejudice and racial discrimination is recognised as a reality by the laws of the land...not the ford foundation, brazuca or a brazilian

get a f**king life and ask yourself why did australia prevent blacks from entering the country in their past.
God help us!
written by Brazuca, June 05, 2010
The worst thing is that we might have Brazilian clones of you running around in the not-too-distant future! God help us!
...
written by Fergie, June 05, 2010
When I was in Brazil,I met a black Brazilian who spoke English, he told me that Brazil got better results with their apartheid system then SA or the US. Brazil was able to do this without putting up signs or passing anti black laws. For years the dictators in Brazil built soccer stadiums but no schools for the poor and most of the blacks are extremely poor. If one travel through Brazil one will find that the non whites in Brazil are not part of the mainstream in that country. As a matter of facts, the rich have special elevators for the non whites to use in most of the rich apartment houses. I was just reading about how a black Brazilian was attacked for using the wrong elevator and he brought a civil right suit and won. A few years ago this would not be possible because there were no civil right laws to protection the people in Brazil like in the US. So one can see the ford foundation is not bringing division to Brazil because it's already there. For over a hundred years in Brazil nobody had civil rights so the dictators kept everything swept under the rug and now it's coming out in the washing. The Brazilian women were treated no better and now they calling for gender equality in Brazil.
Eh?
written by Simpleton, June 05, 2010
Fergie: "I asked him how did he know I was from the US and he said because black Brazilians don't come in these restaurants on the COPE."

I am assuming you mean Copacabana.

Brazuca (aka Paulo): "people who are poor don't go into restaurants! ... The issue was class. If the issue was race, then you would have been barred from entering the restaurant"

I'm ok with the first part of your response but the second part shows just how much of an idiot you are. If you spent any time at all in Brasil you would know that the laws are very very clear and carry significant penalties - there is simply not a chance in hell that anyone would be barred based on race - the racial bias and how it is conveyed is much more subtle. Yes, black bucks from the US there on a lark are always accepted - they are seen as green not black and treated accordingly but the locals I can tell you are certainly not.

I have very strong friendships with several very black Brasileiros. These restaurants of which you speak do very much in fact have color based bias as well as money based ones. Me they know well. They will always kindly take from me the later but what tends to happen is that if I bring any of my black black friends to my table the familiarity / cordial interchanges drop significantly off and I end up with a numbskull bottom of the heirarcy waiter vs top end (or the chief Maitre d' / host himself). Nothing is said outright and when I return again without such company in tow, things go back to the usual. One of these establishments actually got shut down based on the discrimination laws not all that long back. What happened was there was a black Brasileiro dining there with his wife, when the bill came he reviewed it and found they had stacked up a few drinks on it that were not theirs / they had not ordered nor consumed. (That happens all too often so keep your watch, make your own tally on a napkin or something.) In the process of protesting and insisting the bill be corrected some things were said that should not have been said, forbidden words were used. Big big mistake, the gentleman was not only moneyied but was also a well positioned government official. Bam!! doors closed and the poor saps that worked there (remember pretty much all bar and restaurant staff in Copacabana work for salaria minimo) were out of a job for a long time. During my visits this past year one of my friends took me into another place not so touristy. He was flush with cash as business had recently been good so it was his turn to buy me a few beers. I was basically an unknown there but had walked past the place and looked in / stood out on the walk and listened in to the live music that they had from time to time but I had actually sat down and had a bite to eat and some beers there only once. The clientele were all more or less local pastey white Brasileiros. My friend appearantly picked up on the fact that I was a bit on the apprehensive side about he and I using that establishment and he jumped right in to repeatedly reassure me it was quite ok - he was accepted and treated decently there and then he took me by the arm and dragged me in to the one open table back in the back. No problems with the propietor and staff that I could pick up on but I could just feel the daggers burrowing into the back of my skull from the clientele - how dare I bring this black man into their space. My friend very much too loudly indicated something like "no problem if I didn't have any money, have whatever you like / get some food - he was going to pay for everything." Even the mother of one of my mulato friends who is, in appearance, the classic african woman (but not black black) who was originally from Milan lets loose on how horrible the negao are viewed / treated when she's out back of her house with a snootful of whiskey. I treat this woman as my "Mom", she is very classy and intelligent even if not highly educated or moneyied. If she feels / thinks this way underneath it all, I for one would never doubt it.

Brasil a place where the 6% of it's own population that is black black is not routinely subject to racism? I'm having a hard time buying into that - class / caste / money just doesn't justify what I have seen, heard and experienced first hand. As to racism in the US, I can speak to that too. The woman who adopted the twin older full blooded brothers of the two boys I adopted grew up being treated a white trash due principly to the "one drop rule". She is rather vocal about this and she has zero visble characteristics of being anything other than pure white. Reverse bias (blacks being racist) is also something I've seen. Leave it to say both Brasil and the US (and I suspect most of the rest of the world) have a long long way to go.

Paz
...
written by Fergie, June 05, 2010
Speaking of the Japanese, many people in Brazil don't know it but, many of the people from Japan were shipped out of japan because they were mixed with blacks after this country was occupied by the US. The Japanese government paid the Brazilian dictators a lot of money to settle these people after the war. As a matter of facts, the government of Japan bought land for these people to settle on when they came to Brazil. There was nothing done like this for the ex slaves in Brazil or any place in South America.
...
written by A Brazilian, June 05, 2010
peaking of the Japanese, many people in Brazil don't know it but, many of the people from Japan were shipped out of japan because they were mixed with blacks after this country was occupied by the US. The Japanese government paid the Brazilian dictators a lot of money to settle these people after the war. As a matter of facts, the government of Japan bought land for these people to settle on when they came to Brazil. There was nothing done like this for the ex slaves in Brazil or any place in South America.


This is problably the dumbest thing I have ever read in my entire life.

You sure are black, it shows in your writing.
Simpleton
written by Brazuca, June 05, 2010
Brazil is not a racially divided country but a class divided country (which makes it no different from any other country in that respect, except that the class divisions tend to be quite vast). I can't imagine STF judge Barbosa, for example, not being allowed into any of these restaurants or being given trouble. In fact, one of my friends in Rio told me of bumping into him in one of the classiest restaurants in Leblon and commending him on he's then-recent outburt at the head judge of the STF.

I'm very mistrustful of such anecdotes, because people can be conditioned to start thinking in a certain way and to therefore start interpreting things in a certain way, whether they understand what they're doing or not. This skepticism especially became so when, a number of years ago, I was watching a discussion show on Australian television (SBS's Insight program) and the subject was about children adopted from overseas. The host, in the course of discussion, asked one girl in the audience who had an Indian-born brother whether she'd experienced any racial discrimination. She said she had; many times, in fact. Thankfully, the host asked her to elaborate, because I had one set of images playing in my mind when she said this and, when she spoke, I realize she mind something else entirely in mind! The look she had on her face (she would have been in her late teens or early twenties) was one of defiance, as if she was determined not to let these experiences hold her down. She explained that often when she and her brother went to the movies together, people would assume that they were boyfriend and girlfriend rather than brother and sister -- because he looked Indian while she looked "white". That was it. That was the "racism" she was talking about! I've also been disappointed to see the Maori in New Zealand adopt an African-American-type "black" identity since the Sixties and have headed in the direction of separatism and away from New Zealand's traditional assimilation. Since New Zealand never had any segregation laws to speak of, Maori activists have been searching ardently for discrimination to fit the narrative they've adopted, and have mainly had to make do with making a mountain out of a molehill over alleged infractions over time of the Treaty of Waitangi.

In short, when people are given a certain narrative and pressured to force the facts to fit the narrative, they'll start seeing all sorts of things and "interpreting" them in the way they know that they're supposed to. People will make assumptions about people's class in Brazil, especially when their experience confirms these assumptions; and mistakes will be made, where somebody will be told to use the elevador servico instead of the elevador social, and it turns out that this is the rare occasion where that class assumption is incorrect. This is not malicious, and it is fundamentally different from racism. Racism is when Colin Powell, when a full colonel in the US Army, is driving in the South, in uniform, and a racist police officer pulls him over and proceeds to treat him disrespectfully, using racial epithets and so forth, in spite of the fact of Powell's evident position and standing. Now, can anybody seriously claim the same could possibly happen in Brazil -- a uniformed colonel being treated like that by a cop?! Here, class means nothing to this person, because he is a racist; race is the issue. See the difference?

Besides, these anecdotes make it out to seem as if there's this atmosphere in Brazil of cruelty based on race and so forth. I found Brazilians to be the most diplomatic and non-confrontational people I've ever come across. In fact, in the year that I was there, I never once saw in public a single example of anyone being rude, mean or nasty to anyone else. If a class assumption were made about which elevator it was appropriate to use, nobody would have been rude about it. For someone to throw a tantrum at this unmalicious class assumption -- almost certainly delivered from an unaggressive sertanejo nordestino (who, from what I saw, make up 95-99% of porteiros) -- indicates that the person would have been schooled and grieved in Ford Foundation grievance hyperbole mindset and would have been psyched up to find a "test case", as it were, to justify his adopted paradigm. In other words, such a person is an unwitting destabilization agent of a foreign power/interest -- a dupe, a patsy.
...
written by João da Silva, June 05, 2010

This is problably the dumbest thing I have ever read in my entire life.


De acordo.smilies/wink.gif
...
written by Fergie, June 06, 2010
@Da Silva, you can't accept the truth about Brazilian history. This is a country that the none whites for a long time hate themselves and refused to call themselves black. Most of the things that I am talking about were never put in the history books in Brazil.
...
written by João da Silva, June 06, 2010

@Da Silva, you can't accept the truth about Brazilian history.


That is because I never studied history and never claimed myself as a historian. What intrigued me is about your statement that the Japanese were forcefully shipped out to Brasil after the American occupation. You must be talking about the occupation at the end of WW 2. ie in 1945-unless you are talking about other "occupations" which I am unaware of.

From what little I know of the Brasilian history, the first Japanese immigrants came to this country about 102 years ago. That was much before WW2 and I don't think that the American blacks were "occupying" the Islands of Japan at that time.

Please do correct me if I am wrong. It is always nice to be corrected by historical scholars.smilies/wink.gif
...
written by Fergie, June 06, 2010
I said many people of mixed blood after WW2 were shipped out of Japan to Brazil. This was done by the Japanese government to keep the people in Japan pure. I didn't say all of the Japanese like you are trying to switch what I said around came to Brazil this way. You should go into key words and down load the information about this subject. There is a lot of information that the dictators in Brazil kept out of the history books in Brazil. This is why the history books in Brazil are being rewritten to reflex Brazil true history now.
ANTI-Anecdotes
written by Simpleton, June 06, 2010
Yes unpeeling social precepts and long accepted / practiced norms to get down to seeing what the underlying and rarely spoken of basis may be for some behaviors can be quite challenging. I'm a bit of a rogue and some actually have garnered a bit of appreciation for it. My so brazenly and blasphemously tossing out the caste differentiations and violating all manner of local sense of propriety by my very heart felt and personable associations with people both far below and far above my own station, being all are just people, sometimes drives some of them a bit nuts but in so doing I often get a chance to see a bit deeper down into what drives them which is clouded by that. In Brasil it is not all entirely caste driven plain and simple but the Abe's (A Brazilian's) and Brazuca's visage will never see that nor let it be acknowleged even despite understanding why the laws on that subject were so recently created.
Speaka da English?
written by Brazuca, June 06, 2010
Why are African-Americans so inarticulate? Maybe adrianerik's right. If they rescind the Civil Rights Act and go back to segregation, then maybe things will improve and what they write will be legible.

But one thing's for sure. They certainly make for easy dupes/patsies.
Segregation
written by Simpleton, June 06, 2010
African-Americans have already comenced segregation amongst themselves out of their own volition from what I see. The hospital administrator, doctors and business owners that bought homes in my subdivision, currently 7.3 percent of our tiny population, could hardly be classified as inarticulate, dupes or patsies.
Negro! Pleeeez!
written by adrianerik, June 06, 2010
Attributing ideas to me that aren't my own...ahh...the consistency of christian right wing LYING. Isn't there a commandment against that boo-boo?

Oh, but I forget, you have never been known to let a little facts get in the way of your bigotry and stereotyping.

Listen Petah, I hate tangential discussions and you righty wackos are good for that.

African Americans created 55 private universities (besides the 55 created by the state governments) which essentially educated the Caribbean and African middle class, back when they were barred from the white dominated universities. I could close my eyes and pick any 10 of these students and they could easily deal with your sophomoric philosphical arugments. Don't get them confused with the young black soldiers you've met who use the military as a last-choice option.

Now...if the figures on the Brazilians of Japanese descent are correct, I applaud them. They are following in the footsteps of African American scholars out of Tuskeegee, Fisk, Howard, Florida A&M (who have more National Merit scholars than Harvard), Morehouse, Spelman, etc who could compete professionally with most whites in America.

Now deal with this fact. Japanese in Brazil have been the most NON-MIXED social group in Brazil. Even under Brazil's supposed miscegenation, they were considered an undesirable group with which to marry. Currently, the estimates are that only 28% of "Japanese" have non-Japanese blood (yeah...yeah...I know that there is no such thing as "racial blood").

Therefore, the success of Japanese in Brazil DO NOT REPRESENT THE INTEGRATION OF A NON-WHITE SOCIAL GROUP INTO A RACIST, TO SOME DEGREE, WHITE SOCIETY.

And in those societies where Asians have been "absorbed" by a dominant social group which still maintains its implicit racism ins white-judeo/christian orientation, these groups are average to mediocre after 3 generations.

So the success of the Japanese comes from circling the wagon around their community and confronting racism by the development of their own myths and raising well-adjusted kids within the cocoon of these myths (as ALL societies do).

Children raised in a hostile environment, where society's myths, religious, historic and phenotypical norms DENY the very image of those children become psychologically damaged starting from around age 7 (the age where children search for heroes who look like them) and this damage becomes locked by age 12. The majority of the pyschosis of adults were not formed as adults but represent fears locked in their psyche by age 12.

So considering the success of the Japanese, YES!, I would urge Afro-Brazilians to imitate them...EVERYTHING! Not just the hard work but turning off the venom of white dominated novellas and cocooning their children in a social structure that values them and affirms their images....IRRESPECTIVE OF THEIR SOCIAL CLASS!

Got that, Petah?
...
written by Fergie, June 06, 2010
There are only 1.6 millions Japanese in Brazil and didn't come there in chains. I think you should read the history of Vargas rule in Brazil and how he wanted to lighting Brazil. The government policies were not to help the dark skin people in Brazil but, the light skin people of Brazil.
You're crazy! (1 of 2)
written by Brazuca, June 07, 2010
Now deal with this fact. Japanese in Brazil have been the most NON-MIXED social group in Brazil.


Firstly, they were the last major group to migrate to Brazil, so that explains that. Secondly, Japanese are famously racial/biological in their identity; Koreans who are second- or third-generation residents of Japan are still not considered Japanese, for example, because Japanese subscribe to the jus sanguinis concept of nationality. Marrying exogamously was anathema for them, and it's taken them longer to adopt the Brazilian way of thinking than other immigrant groups. In other words, it's taken them longer to become Brazilians proper than other groups, and presumably had Vargas not closed down their separatist schools, they'd still be a Japanese colony in Brazil rather than citizens who are Brazilians by virtue of jus solis.

You talk about the importance of Japanese circling their wagons in order to withstand the supposed oppression they face. If this is their mentality, then it begs the question, Why come to Brazil? If they want to remain Japanese, then why not stay in Japan, or go back to Japan? This is the debate that's going on in Australia right now. Why come to Australia if you don't intend to become Australian? (It's especially directed at the Muslims, many of whom subscribe strongly to your mentality, tending to have a strong separatist and endogamic mentality, sometimes to the extent of advocating for their own separate Sharia law in their own segregated areas or neighborhoods. Needlessly to say, Australians, being assimilationist rather than segregationist, hate this type of thinking.)

Brazil is not a state with many nations in it -- the "black" nation, the "white" nation, the Hispanic nation, etc. It is one nation. It is a nation of Brazilians. And foreign oligarchical interests are manipulating dupes like you to divide and weaken what could become a major power that is outside of their control and domination, a prospect they find unacceptable. (Hey, you may be able to catch them in Spain, if they haven't finished their Bilderberg meeting yet, to get your medal from the Anglo-American delegation!)

They are following in the footsteps of African American scholars out of Tuskeegee, Fisk, Howard, Florida A&M (who have more National Merit scholars than Harvard), Morehouse, Spelman, etc who could compete professionally with most whites in America.


Ah, so "separate but equal" was correct, because your African-Americans nowadays are worse off in many respects. One in three of your bruvvas will be processed through the penal system in their lifetime. A shocking 90% of "your" children in Washington, DC, are born out of wedlock. "Who'se your daddy?" is a phrase your bruvvas coined, because these kids all too often have no idea who their daddies are. My family and some friends were talking over dinner the other day and somebody mentioned how a young African-American woman they'd met told them that one of the first questions they ask a prospective suitor is their surname. Why? Because they want to reduce the chances of dating a half-brother!

So, yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe the Civil Rights Act was a mistake and y'all oughta return to that Edenic state of Jim Crow, where African-Americans were still uncorrupted by much interaction with "white" people, when they were still beautiful and unspoilt in their innocence.
You're crazy! (2 of 2)
written by Brazuca, June 07, 2010
Which begs the question ... what the hell are you doing in Brazil?! Run back home and launch Segregation 2.0! After all, it'll be much easier there as the society's already de facto segregated anyway. People already live in "black" neighborhoods and "white" neighborhoods and "Hispanic" neighborhoods and so forth. Why start in Brazil, where you have to teach people such unbelievable basics as "you're 'black', you know" and a balkanized nation is much better than a unified, homogenous nation.

But anyway, regarding this circling-the-wagons segregationist mentality, if we adopt the one-drop rule, circle the wagons against whom? The "white" novelas? But pretty much all those actors are "black", if we accept the logic of hypodescent. Therefore who is the "them" against whom "we" must circle "our" wagons?

The "we", the "us", already dominate the country -- those who, according to hypodescent, are "black" by virtue of having one drop of "black" blood in them. Fernando Henrique Cardoso -- he's "black", he said so himself. Lula? "Black". No doubt. Dilma? She a nigga fo sho! The right-wing guy who'll run against her? Serra's black as night.

They're pretty much all "black", the ones that are in control. The actors? Pretty much all "black", including the blondes with blue eyes. Academia Brasileira das Letras? Founded by niggas; most of its members are and have been "blacks". The family that owns Rede Globo? "Black". Etcetera, etcetera.

So who are all these "blacks" meant to be circling their wagons against? The remaining 10% who do not have one drop of "black" blood and so are "white"? The 90% should circle their wagons against the less-than-1% of "pure-blooded" japinhas, correct?

And then there are those of "pure" Italian blood. But then Italians (at least south of Milan) look rather swarthy, and therefore suspiciously compromised. Weren't these people overrun by Moors some time in their history and must have been defiled and spoilt? Can Silvio Berlusconni therefore be considered "white", given the distinct possibility that his blood has suffered an oil spill some time in the past? Same-same for people of "pure" Spanish and Portuguese descent. What was it -- seven hundred years under Moorish domination?! That's longer than Brazil's history! Which means when the Spaniards and Portuguese came to the New World, they were already niggas! Which means the only "whites" ever to exist in the Americas are and have always resided in the United States and Canada!

Ah, now I understand your reasoning about circling wagons against "whites"! Since the Brazilian elite has never been "white" and has always been "black" (even before they started mixing with their African slaves), they have historically struggled to circle their wagons against the oppressive "whites"! And the only oppressive "whites" to have ever lived in the New World have resided in the far north of the Americas. So by Lula going against America in refusing to support sanctions against Iran, for example, he is simply doing as you advise and circling his "black" wagon of Brazil against the oppressive "white" Injuns in the United States foreign policy establishment.

Now I get ya! Hey, maybe you're not so crazy, after all. smilies/wink.gif
90 percent racist brazucas
written by Simpleton, June 07, 2010
The only racism I perceived going on was by the 90 percent (minus 6 percent) you say are black against those that all see via skin pigment as black-black and occasionally those that are predominantly unmixed african but somewhat lighter in appearance. You also may have missed the mark somewhat trying to suggest that the 10 percent white are Americans or Canadians. Not so much immigration from there that I am aware of but please do educate us on that colonization movement. Maybe you should try Germans, Dutch and Brits instead as the priciple make up of that segment since you've tossed the Italians, Spanish and Portugues onto the other side of the white line. Just like anywhere you'll find them much easier to locate - just search for their annual local community festas where they band together and dress up in what they perceive as the traditional garb from their homelands from many generations back.

Do you have an answer yet as to why Brasil has the anti-racial laws it has on it's books? The Americans or Canadians or other foreign uberlords, the Ford Foundation, some other external world view somehow forced Brasil to make them up / brought them into being? Being nearly all Brasileiros are black and there is no racism in Brazil, I myself can't imagine why those were necessary in the least.
Non sequitur
written by Brazuca, June 07, 2010
Do you have an answer yet as to why Brasil has the anti-racial laws it has on it's books?


Using that logic, when Apartheid South Africa had no anti-racist laws on its books, this was prima facie evidence that racism wasn't a problem there. Because a country only has such laws only if it has a serious problem with racism.
...
written by Ederson, June 07, 2010
Great debate! I'm enjoying it. However, I pity the poor blonde-haired, blue-eyed folks that haven't done anything to anybody and are just living. Surely, by now, they must be feeling guilty being just who they are. smilies/wink.gif
Yeah, those folks south of Milan, you have to watch them. I have relatives who resemble that remark.smilies/cheesy.gif
THANKS BRAZUCA!
written by Simpleton, June 07, 2010
Sorry I used a bit of a trick on you, you're a decent sort in my book, I was just trying to get someone / anyone to finally peice together what you have so eloquently done. Now all you have to do is convince the A Brazilian's and many many other Brasileiros / Brasileiras that have come to this site to cease with their America bashing and reverse course with their absolute denial of there being racial problems in Brasil (which they have been doing over the past 4+ years). Good luck with that but I think maybe they would, without ever admitting it, very much wish to recind the laws Brasil has on the books.
No pity?
written by Simpleton, June 07, 2010
Eddie, I feel so hurt you didn't extend your pity to us brown haired green eyed types. Guess I'm just going to have to suffer with being just another one of those wholely underserving minorities.
Simpleton!
written by Ederson, June 07, 2010
I wouldn't dare extend any pity to my wife! She says I'm pitiful enough!smilies/cheesy.gif
Labels
written by adrianerik, June 07, 2010
Really there is no one to feel sorry for. At least my attempt is to always use racist as opposed to white. If I ever mixed the two then "my bad".

There is a problem when the non-racist whites are silent about racism in any society. Not just the overt racism but the institutional racism. Blondes or brunettes or aryan or whatever should be demonstrating against history books that purport the "discovery" of one people or land by another. In the name of humanity they should support the blacks and indigenes in this cause.

Blondes and Brunettes and hazel-eyes should support the critical analysis of the "euro-centralizing" of the Christian gospel: the depiction of the face of Michaelangelo's uncle as The Christ: the Italian politicizing of the church, beginning with Constantine and sealed by the Council of Nicae: the joining of European colonialism and conquests with "the will of god".

Blondes and Brunettes and blue-eyes should protest that yet another season of novellas (Riberao de Ouro, Passisone, etc) bring the same forumla of bem brancos, representing a minority of Brasil's population, and mixed or black characters being peripheral, or, if they have an ass, being the goo-goo eyed sexual toy of some (again) bem branco male (nearly 20 of 21 depictions of interracial couples are of white men and non-white women).

To be quite honest, there are a number of blondes and brunettes and blue eyes supporting the cause of humanity and fairness. We just need more.
Nice samba
written by adrianerik, June 07, 2010
@brazuca - nice footwork, Petah. You dance well. Hopped all over the issue. Don't worry, you many return to your cowering behind eschatological yin-yang and Appy/Diony nonsense, anytime you please.

It ain't personal, boo-boo. I kinda like you.

In about another 10 years (you'll be 40, right?) when you finally get to know a woman (in the biblical sense) and some big-butt momma locks her legs behind your back...or as Leviticus says...you "enter" her...after marriage, of course), maybe she'll gasp some Dionysian reality into your world.
Director
written by Brian Knight, June 07, 2010
"fair-skinned Brazilians"

Just a quick note here, this is just one of the loaded expressions in this article that I think were unnecessary! Why is it that Caucasian skin type is considered "fair"? It implies darker skin is inherently unfair?

Brazil's unique racial history has created a society of people of color who largely reject the notion they are colored, and therefore delude themselves into thinking discrimination does not exist merely because 80%+ of the population has minimum 2% African or native indian blood. Hence why in Brazil you do not have the concept that you are either PURE WHITE or otherwise black or asian or indian. Instead you have a desperate attempt by 80% of the population to to recognize ones WHITENESS first, mixed with some level of blackness. Its why you have morena, mulata, negra, preta. Less than 1% of Brazil would simply call themselves NEGRO as opposed to American Blacks, where even Obama and Alicia Keys who are less than 50% Black still call themselves by their most visibly dominant genetic character.
Ederson
written by João da Silva, June 07, 2010

Great debate! I'm enjoying it.


Yeah, the debate is as exciting as to watch the grass grow during the winter time.smilies/cheesy.gif
Joao, Adrianerik's blog.
written by Ederson, June 07, 2010
Actually, Joao, I'm trying to make sense of Adrianerik's blog, but I'm afraid I'd just add more fuel to the fire if I commented on it.
However, it is a pleasure to learn that as observers of nature, you and I do have something in common. I, too, enjoy watching grass grow, especially Gamba grass when used for cattle forage.
You're a man after my own heart, Joao!smilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/grin.gif
...
written by Fergie, June 07, 2010
There was a stigma attached to being called black in Brazil and many physical black Brazilians were ashamed to be called black. This was brought about by the the repressive dictators that ruled Brazil and didn't allowed any discussion about race in Brazil. All one has to do is download the history of Vargas rule in Brazil and other dictators that ruled Brazil. The sad thing about this whole subject matter of race, most Brazilians know very little of their history that I have met.
Fergie
written by Ederson, June 07, 2010
I promise I will do that. I, for one, will read it for sure tomorrow. I always need to expand my cultural awareness. 'Been outside in the sun too much anyway. It'll give me something to do that normally I give very little thought.
Beyonce Knowles ... dump Jay-Z and marry me!!!
written by Brazuca, June 08, 2010
In about another 10 years (you'll be 40, right?) when you finally get to know a woman (in the biblical sense) and some big-butt momma locks her legs behind your back...or as Leviticus says...you "enter" her...after marriage, of course), maybe she'll gasp some Dionysian reality into your world.


I'll be 42 (time waits for no man!). Ironically, speaking of "big-butt mommas", you'll be happy to know that my concept of the idealized female form changed while I was in Brazil. Prior to going, I'd have thought that Beyonce Knowles was was a little to big in some areas. Now I recognize that she actually has the perfect female form! I caught myself the other day thinking, when I briefly saw Serena Williams on the TV about to do a serve at the French Open, "Wow, she's got nice legs!" Needless to say, I simply wouldn't have thought this prior to going, since her legs look like tree trunks!

I remember first realizing how different the Brazilian standard of beauty was when one of my housemates was, as usual (given a fragile self-image), lamenting her physical form. "I wish I wasn't so skinny and had bigger thighs and a bigger butt," she would often complain as she'd observe herself in the mirrored wall in the living room. Not understanding this attitude, I would say to her that she had the idealized physical form and that many girls in the English-speaking world would die to have her figure. She laughed surprised, and turned to our other housemate, a model (see link below; it's a publicly available photo, so she wouldn't mind) and exclaimed somewhat still skeptical, "Did you know that our slim figure would be considered attractive in the English-speaking world?" The model turned around from the computer screen and, unsurprised, said that, sure, she knew that. After all, she, given her work, would have long been aware that the slim figure is what is idealized in much of the world. In fact, while I was there, I didn't get the impression that men found Giselle Bundchen attractive and many were probably a bit perplexed as to why she was so famous overseas.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fabiokotinda/3993664061/in/photostream/

Anyway, this helped to later explain why, when I showed a Brazilian friend a photo on my phone of my housemate the model, he didn't seem particularly impressed; whereas my Australian friends, when I first returned for three months, were in universal agreement that they were all (three) very attractive. Then again, during the 2009 Carnival, they took me out with them on the last day (the previous days they just disappeared and left me alone, the bitches; though probably because, as I would see, these were hunting expeditions for them) to some place in Baixa Gavea and then on to Santa Teresa, they had no trouble attracting a constant stream of males with whom, if they deemed them suitably attractive, they would passionately ficar for a few minutes ... and then all would be forgotten and they'd be strangers again (perhaps exchanging phone numbers), only to ficar with someone else fifteen or thirty minutes later -- and so on like this! I'd say each that night ficou with five or six guys. So I guess the svelte figure is also considered attractive in Brazil and not just the thighs-like-tree-trunks-and-generous-bunda look! LOL

Oh, and blonde hair is a definite plus. Blonde hair together with thighs-like-tree-trunks-and-generous-bunda is absoultely perfect. It doesn't matter if the woman in question couldn't possibly be a natural blonde (though if she is, all the better), what matters is that she's a blonde. One of the housemates was a morena-clara, but she had blonde streaks. To my consternation, at a party they were hosting, a girl who didn't know everyone (and was practicing her English with me) was asking me who everyone was, and as she went around asking people's names, she matter-of-factly asked, "and the blonde?" when she reached the morena-clara. The blonde?! LOL (Oh, and I also saw a magazine at a news stand dedicated to blondes, which is presumably to say, girls who aspire to be blondes, as I don't think the girl on the cover page was a natural blonde. Also, I saw a mag (got a picture) especially dedicated to the subject of plastic surgery.)

But I think all Brazilian men think Beyonce Knowles is absolutely hot (and I must say, I can see what they're talking about now). Even though she's not "blonde".
Race is as important as oxygen in America
written by Brazuca, June 08, 2010
Yeah, the debate is as exciting as to watch the grass grow during the winter time.


I understand Brazilians have great difficulty understanding why English-speakers like talking about such immaterial things as people's skin colors or the idea of "race", but the reality is that anglophones have traditionally placed a great deal of importance on the idea of race, putting it right up there with oxygen; they base their whole identity around this idea of skin color or race! This is especially so in America. And now some of these Americans, principally funded by the Ford Foundation (for strategic divide-and-rule purposes), are trying to bring this disease into Brazil. Of course the overwhelming number of Brazilians will not touch the subject, because they are practically incapable of understanding it, but thankfully some will do, like those in the Movimento Mestico and Contra a racializacao do Brasil.
A África do Sul é aqui
written by Brazuca, June 08, 2010
The future of Brazil if the Ford Foundation and its minions gets their way:

http://nacaomestica.org/blog4/?p=481
Fergie
written by Ederson, June 08, 2010
Believe it or not, I Googled Vargas and his racial policies; didn't learn a great deal more than I already knew. The big question still remains; how do you resolve it. Whatever the answer might be, I hope it doesn't guide Brasil toward socialism and moral and financial bankruptcy, as has reform in the States. I think the Yanks threw their wallets at the solution and abandoned other logical alternatives. A good start would be to keep the surplus at home rather than invest in a jobs program for the French or Chinese.
I don't know. Like Joao said, it's interesting. Kind of like watching grass grow. Joao is a real nature lover.smilies/wink.gifsmilies/cheesy.gif 'Will be following this debate closely.
Ederson
written by João da Silva, June 08, 2010

Like Joao said, it's interesting. Kind of like watching grass grow. Joao is a real nature lover.


Please do not disturb me.I am too busy running around all over the town in search of stores that are selling "Revised History" books. So far no success. If I find any, shall lend you to read.

Actually, Joao, I'm trying to make sense of Adrianerik's blog,


Dr.McCray is too complicated to understand when he is overly verbose. But..but.. I can easily discern what is saying, in spite of my being an uneducated peasant. He places more faith on "brainpower" than "color power".smilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/grin.gif
...
written by João da Silva, June 08, 2010

A África do Sul é aqui


No worries, mate. Our next president has been declared by our current one as the Brasilian version of "Nelson Mandela". I bet she wouldn't let our country become an "Africa do Sul".

Onde esta nossa Ana Paula?
written by Simpleton, June 09, 2010
Adrianerik, in going back through the comments in this thread I noted your correct statement regarding Brasileiro / Brasileira usage of the "afrodescendentes" description of themselves. I have not seen anything posted from our Ana Paula for a long time - does she still visit these sites or some forum you are aware of from time to time? Last I knew some of her dearly departed husband's coworkers were helping her out a bit and that she might take her son to Brasil to be with her shoe-shop family or possibly go back to California to rejoin the Ameri-Brazzo community she had connections with there. If she moved she must have found someone else willing to buy her somewhat damaged / partially broken down car from her. Perhaps the Professor or someone else came through for her and found her a teaching job back down in Brasil which was another option she was hoping for.
isnt this special.....
written by asp, June 09, 2010
for those of you who think in brazil , there is no colorism , check this out :

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/world/americas/08models.html?src=me&ref=homepage

kind of makes everything brazuca sais , have the consistancy of soft diaria
see if the linc can be clicked from here
written by asp, June 09, 2010
think of Brazil this way
written by Jamesddd, July 02, 2010
On paper, Brazil is an economic powerhouse. It's a part of the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, China) emerging economies. However, in reality, Brazil is a poor country, where a small white elite controls everything. The vast majority of Brazilians don't have enough food to eat, hence President Lula's "fome Zero" program. The Zero Hunger program feeds millions of children and women who otherwise would be starving to death.
Brazil racist? Of course
written by theman, July 12, 2010
It amuses me that anyone who has ever lived in Brasil or spent considerable time here could think anything other than the fact that Brazil is a racist country. Those who do not believe Brasil is racist are not living in my Brasil.

And clearly the way to battle racism in Brasil is not to diminish it by claiming other countries are more racist. That helps nobody in Brasil. I'm sure if you look hard enough you can also find a few countries more violent than Brasil. That also does not help Brasilians. The dead remain dead and the targets or racism remain the targets of racism.
It is more complicated than it seems...
written by luciana, August 22, 2010
I dont think we got a high level of racial prejudice, specially because most families are mixed so is pretty stupid to see black or white or the enrmous tones in between as an issue... But..

Is not that simple, In Brazil our slaves (blacks) were not deported back to africa like most the US slaves, they instead formed the favelas and whatnot.

The Masters who did not keep their slaves (cos yes in some farms the slaves were well treated as far as the time period goes and enough to not want to leave the Masters lands) would rather pay for the italian and japanese colonists because it was more lucrative. (thats a long story short to go to the point)

Point is... the blacks became the poors, with no land to take care in its vast majority the slave were the excluded ones, as centuries unfold, our poor people, our illiterates, our marginalized and our cutpurse type of criminal that showed in the pages of the newspapers were dark skinned as their ancestors, so what we have here is a very unique (as far as i know) sociological issue, we got skin as a marker from Poverty.

So why not black politicians or so many black rich folks? Because their opportunities as poor people were not as plenty as those who were richer.

So no it is NOT racial (in most cases) It is social with a color marker. The difference?

Well with the poor people having more acess to education and other opportunities we are seeing the descendants of this poverty class that happens to be black to be more represented.

This is much different of what happens in the US where you have an enimity, in brazil you got suspicion at most, it is very rare to have actual RACIAL prejudice,happens yes, but not nearly as common as most other countries we know
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written by Stewart, December 31, 2010
i am just reading this, i am brazilian living a abroad in north europe.

white brazilians always been "minority" in brazil, the pro black, anti - white movement created in north america must not be accepted in brazil. IS a supreme racist movement, that is sweping europe and north america and moving south.

but i have an idea. we all should campaing to help those black in brazil to move out to africa , europe or north america, since brazil is no good for them. would u agree.???

every one should have the right of a good life in brasil , including whites, but since the nazi black movement of north america was created to spread all over, why not give people an option.
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