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In Brazil's Inhumane Jails Almost Half the Inmates Were Never Convicted PDF Print E-mail
2010 - August 2010
Written by Katherine Haas   
Sunday, 29 August 2010 21:10

Brazilian jailSince its transition from dictatorship to democracy in the mid 1980s, Brazil has undergone an extraordinary transformation, becoming the political and economic leader of Latin America. But despite Brazil's rise as a world power, willing on occasion to challenge the hegemony of the United States, a dark stain of human rights violations can still be found in the country's prison system.

Soaring crime rates and increasing public hostility toward anyone suspected of being a criminal has led to steadily increasing incarceration rates, which the Brazilian penitentiary system has been unequipped to handle.

The result is some of the hemisphere's harshest prison conditions, described by the BBC in 2004 as being "medieval," (1) and frequently condemned by human rights experts from both the UN and NGOs such as Amnesty International.

Although the federal government has acknowledged this problem's existence for more than a decade, it has failed to produce any meaningful remedy for the system. The situation is undoubtedly a complex one, dealing with the intersection of judicial, penitentiary, and crime prevention components.

However, the fact remains that while Brazil is making international headlines for its independent foreign policy and stunning economic successes, tens of thousands of incarcerated Brazilian citizens are suffering unfairly. Outside of prison walls, even more are victims of their government's failure to reform the prison system, as terrible conditions strengthen gangs and create a vicious cycle of violence that Brazilians must contend with daily.

Both binding international law and Brazilian federal law insist that the nation hold itself to high human rights standards. It is time that law is translated into reality, and Brazil begins to take meaningful strides toward improving its prison conditions.

The Stuff of Nightmares

Any discussion of improving Brazil's prison conditions must begin with a frank acknowledgement of their current reality. Inquiries conducted by various advocacy and legal rights groups provide a glimpse into the dark world of Brazil's detention centers. These include not only prisons, but also police station lock-ups where detainees are sometimes kept for months or even years without trial, a practice that is, of course, illegal.

According to an Amnesty International report, 25 prisoners were burnt to death in a Minas Gerais prison in August 2007. (2) The U.S. State Department reported that in Minas Gerais, 30 inmates were kept in a 320 square foot space with rats and scabies, deprived of any access to sunlight. (3)

Torture is frequent: the UN reported in 2001 and again in 2005 that the use of beatings and torture to intimidate prisoners or extract confessions is "meted out on a widespread and systematic basis," (4) One method described in various human rights reports is the pau de arara, or "parrot's perch," where a prisoner is hung upside down and then beaten.

Although the number of women in Brazil's detention system is very low, they often suffer particularly harrowing experiences. In November of 2007, for instance, a 15-year-old girl in Pará was arrested on suspicion of petty theft. For almost a month, she was held in a cell with at least 20 adult men who "treated her as their plaything, raping and torturing her repeatedly," according to The New York Times. (5)

As this girl's fate makes clear, aside from terrible overcrowding and abusive, poorly trained prison officials, detainees must also routinely worry about violence directed at them from other prisoners. This is largely a result of prison gang rivalries, which frequently lead to riots and violence.

One of the worst of these incidents took place in 2006, when one gang organized a revolt that eventually spread to 18 prisons in São Paulo. The dead and injured included not only inmates, but also police and other officials brutally attacked by the gang's gunmen.

Furthermore, prisoners accused of petty, non-violent crimes are often kept in the same cells as the country's most violent criminals and gang lords. This, along with the inability of prison officials to improve conditions or guarantee safety, gives gangs an enormous amount of power, sometimes even more than the authorities.

Some prison administrators even require incoming detainees to choose a gang to affiliate themselves with upon arrival at the facility. If they refuse to choose, prison administrators will assign them to a gang.

These gangs are responsible for distributing food, medicine, supplies, and internal discipline among their members. According to The Economist, these gangs are "simply occupying the space left vacant by the legitimate authorities." (6) As one UN report put it, this "essentially amounts to the state recruiting prisoners into gangs." (7)

In other prisons, the situation may not be as extreme, yet gangs still frequently play a powerful role. In these facilities, gangs gain recruits by advocating for better conditions and promising to protect members from violent guards. "Neutral" prisons, without a distinct gang affiliation, have almost become the exception. Although these gangs paint themselves as the friends of prisoners in order to gain recruits, and sometimes actually do provide services to prisoners that authorities cannot, they should not be viewed as prisoner advocacy groups.

A final verdict on this matter would find that these gangs make life within Brazil's prisons absolutely brutal, and their leaders do not hesitate to use violence against inmates affiliated with rival gangs. This violence can reach frightening levels of cruelty. Amnesty International said in its 2010 World Report that it had received accounts of prisoners dismembering each other. (8)

Overcrowding is perhaps the most serious problem within Brazil's prisons, and a cause of many of its others. In 2001, The Economist reported that prisons meant to hold 145,000 detainees were in fact holding 220,000. (9) In June 2008, DEPEN, the Brazilian government's National Penitentiary Department, reported that the number of prisoners in jails exceeded the number the facilities were designed to hold by 40%.

According to a report published by the International Bar Association (IBA) Human Rights Institute in February 2010, which cited the 40% statistic, overcrowding has only increased since DEPEN released those numbers. (10) This document also made reference to a 2008 report by Philip Aston, the UN Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial, Summary, or Arbitrary execution, where Mr. Aston notes that Brazil's prisons frequently held three times as many people as they were designed to accommodate. (11)

Overcrowding makes prisons unmanageable and leaves prison officials desperate to maintain order. Administrators then turn to gangs or abusive measures to control detainees, which leads to many of the horror stories reported by Amnesty International, the State Department, and other agencies.

Stagnancy and Cycles

Startlingly, Brazilian prison conditions have barely improved in more than a decade, despite numerous reports highlighting the problem and the federal government's acknowledgement that something must be done to remedy the situation. In 1999, Amnesty International published a report called "No One Here Sleeps Safely: Human Rights Violations Against Detainees," in which it said of Brazilian prisons and lock-ups:

"Many of these penal facilities are violent, life-threatening places. Prisoners live in constant fear of assault by other prisoners. Every year, scores of deaths in custody occur as a result of violence on the part of police and prison officers, denial of medical care, and negligence on the part of the authorities in preventing violence between detainees" (12).

Compare this with Amnesty International's most recent World Report, released in early 2010, which said of Brazil's prison conditions:

"Detainees continued to be held in cruel, inhuman or degrading conditions. Torture was regularly used as a method of interrogation, punishment, control, humiliation and extortion. Overcrowding remained a serious problem. Gang control of detention centers resulted in high levels of violence between prisoners" (13).

It is clear that, during the 11 years between these two reports, very little change was recorded. Although some prisons have seen improvement, others have further deteriorated, and the overall pattern of abuse and human rights violations remains.

Part of the reason for this is a vicious cycle of high crime rates and horrendous prison conditions. Not only did an increase in criminal activity lead to more incarcerations, but inhumane cell conditions led to even higher crime rates by preventing the effective rehabilitation of detainees.

For example, the founding of São Paulo's most vicious and notorious crime gang, Primeiro Comando da Capital (PCC), was intimately linked to the failures of the Brazilian prison system. In 1992, police and prison officials brutally suppressed an uprising by prisoners in the Carandiru Casa de Detenção, who were protesting the conditions in which they lived.

One hundred and eleven inmates were killed, and the survivors were tortured. The PCC was formed in response to these deaths, and since then has wreaked havoc both inside and outside of prisons. (14)

Brutal prisons have failed to rehabilitate prisoners or prepare inmates to be reintegrated into society. This usually leads to higher rates of recidivism, as released prisoners begin to commit crimes of escalating violence, leading some to label Brazil's prisons as "schools for crime."

Government Responsibility, Popular Hostility

Popular opinion toward suspected criminals is extremely hostile in Brazil. Many Brazilians oppose the idea of extending rights to the imprisoned, and are not particularly concerned by inhumane prison conditions or brutal tactics employed by prison officers. After the 1992 massacre of 111 prisoners at Carandiru, public opinion polls showed that a significant number of people supported the actions taken by police. (15)

As The Economist put it, "The public tends to feel that if Brazil's prisons are hell, so much the better." (16) This is an obstacle to success for many reformist politicians, because they are perceived as being "soft" on crime. It seems to many officials that no matter what policy is most effective, they have only two choices: appear "tough" on crime by advocating harsh policies toward alleged criminals, or advocate "soft" policy based on rehabilitating convicts and lose the next election.

There is, of course, great value in the democratic principle that the government should pursue policies that reflect the will of the people. However, human rights are not subject to popular referendum in the same way that other policy matters may be.

Moreover, Brazil is party to many international instruments that guarantee human rights, and Brazil's constitution and federal laws contain a series of rights that apply to all Brazilian citizens, including accused criminals. Unfortunately, many of these rights are currently being violated in Brazil's penal system.

In addition to instances of torture, inhumane treatment, and other human rights abuses, violations of legal procedural rights are also extremely common. For instance, the Brazilian Constitution of 1988 provides that any citizen accused of committing a crime has the right to a defense lawyer, which should be provided at government expense if the accused cannot afford private counsel. However, although more than 80% of prisoners in Brazil cannot afford a lawyer, very few have been provided with adequate defense. (17)

Defensoria Pública, the body that is constitutionally mandated to provide these free legal services, does not have enough funding or staff to deal with the huge number of cases that come its way. As a result, many prisoners are never provided with a lawyer, and public defenders do not have the time or resources to give each case the attention it is constitutionally entitled to.

Furthermore, a large number of Brazilian prisoners have never even been convicted of a crime. These pre-trial detainees make up 44% of Brazil's total prison population, which is almost 500,000 in total. (18)

Although Brazilian law does allow pre-trial detention for a limited time as a precautionary measure, judges are currently overusing the practice. Prisoners remain in pre-trial detention for months or years, in some cases for longer than the maximum sentence for the crime of which they have been accused.

One stopgap attempt at reform of Brazil's prison system has been the creation of mutirões, groups of judges who review the caseloads of specific states, and release prisoners who have been detained illegally. As of November 2009, mutirões had freed 20% of pre-trial detainees whose cases they examined. This means that 16,466 people had been in jail illegally, and many more almost certainly still are. (19)

It is undoubtedly the responsibility of the Brazilian federal government to correct this situation, no matter what public opinion polls say. This will involve not only penitentiary reform, but also reform of Brazil's sluggish judiciary which, due to its tendency to resort to pretrial detention, is at least partly to blame for prison overcrowding.

To his credit, President Lula has made attempts to reform the judiciary, but most of these efforts have been blocked. (20) But even if his attempts had been successful, the improvement of prison conditions would still be necessary to create true and sustainable change.

As both the BBC and The Economist have reported, federal officials argue that it is the responsibility of state governments to ensure that prison conditions are adequate, and that the federal government is "largely helpless if state authorities refuse to cooperate." (21)

Although it is true that most of the responsibility technically rests with state governments, it is far from true that the federal government is "helpless." Firstly, they are able to provide funding. Secondly, the National Council on Criminal and Penitentiary Policy is an instrument of the federal government, and is supposed to inspect detention sites and report on their adequacy. (22)

By taking full advantage of this opportunity and committing the Council to frequent and unannounced inspections with publicly-released results, the federal government could potentially assert much more control over prison conditions.

Furthermore, the federal government certainly has the power to pressure states into improving detention facility conditions by making penitentiary reform a national priority. The federal government has not done this, most likely because of the negative political consequences such an effort would entail.

However, as Lula's presidency nears its end, it seems that an important opportunity for improving Brazil's prison system has been missed. Lula, with his unique and resilient popularity, may have been one of very few officials who could have taken a stand for penitentiary reform and politically survived it.

In any case, the next federal government has a responsibility to at least make an attempt at encouraging penitentiary reform, since leaving it to state governments is obviously not working. Perhaps it could mitigate political fallout by pointing out that the current system doesn't just put criminals through hell, it also allows many of them to escape punishment.

Brazil's criminal justice system is so overloaded that, according to the IBA, a great number of sentences go un-served. Some convicts never see the inside of a cell, as they slip through the cracks of inefficient bureaucracies, becoming fugitives to the law. The IBA estimated that the number of people who have been sentenced to jail time but are not serving it is currently around 60,000. (23)

Applying Pressure - The Role of the United States

Just as it may be necessary for Brazil's federal government to pressure its state governments into penitentiary reform, perhaps it is necessary for an outside force to apply pressure on Brazil's federal government before change will take place.

Human rights NGOs and international bodies like the UN and the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights have been doing this consistently, but to no avail. The obvious alternative is that the United States government urge Brazil to make penitentiary reform a priority. As the dominant power in the hemisphere, the U.S. arguably has a responsibility to promote human rights in the region.

But in this case, the United States has very limited power to influence events. Lula has made huge progress in ensuring that Brazil pursues policies decided in Brasília, rather than those that Washington would prefer. This has been especially clear in his foreign policy decisions, most notably in Brazil's relationship with Iran.

However, growing Brazilian independence means that Lula is able to resist Washington's influence not only when its preferences are bad for Brazil, but also when they are in Brazil's best interest, as would be the case if the U.S. began to seek improvement in the Brazilian prison system.

Furthermore, the United States' own record of human rights violations inhibit its authority to call for prison reform in Brazil. The Guantanamo Bay detention facility is still operating, despite highly publicized human rights violations that took place there and the fact that virtually all of its prisoners could be called "pre-trial detainees."

It is now undeniable that the United States has used torture, or "enhanced interrogation techniques" as they are sometimes euphemistically called, in the recent past. The horrifying photos leaked from Abu Ghraib are still floating in the public consciousness. If the government of the United States were to publicly call for the improvement of prison conditions in Brazil, it would most likely be accused of hypocrisy, and rightly so.

Strategies for Improvement

Even if the Brazilian authorities pursue penitentiary reform, the question of which solutions would be most effective would be a difficult one. Several approaches, however, can be ruled out. Simply building more prisons, for instance, would not be effective. In fact, this strategy has already been tried and failed.

In 2000, The Economist, along with then-Rapporteur to the United Nations High Commission for Human Rights Nigel Rodley, predicted it would not work. (24) This year, the IBA reported that they were right: building more prisons only encouraged judges to sentence more people to incarceration, increasing the prison population more rapidly than new cells were being built. (25)

Several strategies to reform Brazil's penitentiary system have been suggested by both domestic and international NGOs, and all of them must be pursued if change is to take place. Sentences involving community service and fines, rather than jail time, should be used as frequently as possible for non-violent crimes, and pre-trial detentions should be cut back.

Conditions in prisons must be improved to meet minimum human rights standards. This can be done by putting greater effort into inspections, which should be conducted without previous warning. The culture of impunity that now exists for prison and police officials who abuse detainees must also end. The legal rights of accused criminals must be met. Expanding Defensoria Pública so that it is able to handle its large caseload would be a step in the right direction.

The Brazilian authorities should not be criticized too heavily. To say they have completely ignored this problem would be an exaggeration; in fact, most of the strategies suggested above have already been tried at one time or another.

The problem is that implementation has not been widespread, and attempts at reform have only been half-hearted. The political will to truly transform the penitentiary system simply does not exist.

As Brazil rises to the status of a leading democratic power in the region, it must raise its human rights standards as well. The United States has often been criticized because, despite the fact that it is a world leader economically and militarily, other developed nations frequently do a better job of protecting the human rights of their people and promoting human rights around the world.

As Brazil begins to emerge as a true world power, perhaps it can avoid this fate. However, in order to do so it must comply with the standards required by both its own constitution and international law, and it can start by improving the Brazilian prison system.

(1) Branford, Becky, "Brazil's 'Medieval' Prisons," BBC News, 2 June 2004, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3768145.stm
(2) Brazil Submission to the UN Universal Periodic Review, First session of the UPR Working Group, 7-11 April 2008, AI Index: AMR 19/023/2007, pp. 4, http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/amr19/023/2007/en/5f56cf8e-a2bf-11dc-8d74-6f45f39984e5/amr190232007en.pdf
(3) 2008 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, Brazil, U.S. Department of State, Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, 25 February 2009, http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2008/wha/119150.htm
(4) "One in Five: The crisis in Brazil's prisons and criminal justice system," International Bar Association, Human Rights Institute Report, February 2010, pp. 15
(5) Barrionuevo, Alexei, "Rape of Girl, 15, Exposes Abuses in Brazil Prison System," New York Times, 12 December 2007, http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/world/americas/12brazil.html
(6) "Tackling the Chaos in Brazil's Prisons," The Economist, 22 Feb 2001, http://www.economist.com/node/511505
(7) Report of the Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, Mr. Philip Alston, Mission to Brazil, A/HRC/11/2/Add.2 future, 28 August 2008, pp. 26, http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/11session/a.hrc.11.2.add.2_en.pdf
(8) Amnesty International Report 2010: The State of the World's Human Rights, AI Index: POL 10/001/2010, pp. 85, http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/air2010_az_en.pdf#page=31
(9) "Tackling the Chaos"
(10) "One in Five," pp. 7
(11) "One in Five," pp. 11
(12) "No One Here Sleeps Safely: Human rights violations against detainees," 23 June 1999, AI Index: AMR 19/09/99, http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/amr19/009/1999/en/b659eadf-e1e1-11dd-a03a-6b5b1e49bce3/amr190091999en.pdf
(13) Amnesty International Report 2010, pp. 85
(14) "One in Five," pp. 12
(15) "One in Five," pp. 33
(16) "Tackling the Chaos"
(17) "One in Five," pp. 5
(18) "One in Five," pp. 7
(19) "One in Five," pp. 8
(20) See "Not-so-swift justice," The Economist, 25 Mar 2004, http://www.economist.com/node/2542089
(21) Branford, "Brazil's 'Medieval' Prisons"
(22) "One in Five," pp. 52
(23) "One in Five," pp. 17
(24) "In the House of Horror," The Economist, 9 Nov 2000, http://www.economist.com/node/417839
(25) "One in Five," pp. 7

Katherine Haas is a research associate at the Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA) - www.coha.org. The organization is a think tank established in 1975 to discuss and promote inter-American relationship.



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Comments (22)Add Comment
Soaring crime rates and increasing public hostility toward anyone suspected of being a criminal has led to steadily increasing incarceration rates
written by ch.c, August 30, 2010
Come on, come on !
Just ask whoever Brazilians or Americans forum members on this site.
A well known fact...as per them....that the quality of life is VERY HIGH in brazil. Even in jail the prisoners have vacations and Christmas holiday so that they can go home !

Come on, come on
Life is great is the brazilians many many thousands favelas. So much pleasure they cant stop sniffing coke and drinking Coke !

Come on, come on
As per an article on this site, a few months ago, poverty is now at 4 % due to Lula the magician, second to God as per his own words !
Suffice to take ONE dollar per month out of 40 millions citizens and INDIGENT they are again !
A true prowess and pride....in stats manipulation.

5) Come on, come on
As per Robbing Hook own words, developed nations should copy Brazil.
Yessss HE wants developed nations with trade surplus to have their exports....COLLAPSE ! And that life is so good in the brazilians favelas, developed nations should create AS MANY SLUMS than in Brazil !

Come on, come on
Simply ask ASP, WISEMAN AND SIMPELTON, both love Brazil. Much better than the USA as per the Wiseman !

come on, come on
Justice is perfect in Brazil. Politicians are entitled to corruption and votes buying...one way or the other.


Hmmmmm....hmmmmmm

smilies/shocked.gifsmilies/shocked.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/wink.gif

And about the lasst sentence of the article "and it can start by improving the Brazilian prison system"
Ohhhh yesssss and double the vacations for the prisoners.
Ohhhh yesssss and reduce the prison time to 1/10th from 1/6th for the convicted who have good records during their prison time. This would reduce further the crowding in their jails.

Hmmmmm....hmmmmm !

smilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gif
Conviction is not required
written by Simpleton, August 30, 2010
for spending 6 plus years in Bangu with not a single one of the group of individuals rounded up being convicted of anything - was a fact for a woman I know. One of the group died in prison. What happened to the others or whether they are still incarcerated is unknown.

You can imprison the body but you can not imprison the mind and soul.
the prison situation is f**ked in brazil....
written by asp, September 03, 2010
it is certainly an indication that there are serious problems to be addressed

it certainly is an indication that there is a sub world and and sub economy that is in effect

and a lot of neglect

among the large prison population ,there are some realy bad viscious people in the prisons,and gangs that rule inside and out.

they should be incarcerated, but, not in conditions that look like the middle passage of slavery on the ships

marijuana should be legalised to clear out of the prisons anyone buying or selling marijuana

who should be in prison is violent criminals or people stealing or huge corruption rip offs

unless any society faces the incarceration of individuals for just drugs and tries to change that, then that society will be ingulfed with huge over crowding and violent criminal mixed with people who arent violent and just used or sold drugs
...
written by gringox3, September 03, 2010
This idea that the jails are full of nice innocent people is a joke. The joke is that there is NO LIFE SENTENCES handed out. ALL THE TRASH in these jails will one day be littering he streets again. THERE is the injustice.
...
written by gringox3, September 03, 2010
"marijuana should be legalised to clear out of the prisons anyone buying or selling marijuana"

Let's legalize all crimes, of course the crime rate would drop. I like the fact that pot is illegal, that means most of the violence is committed between drug traffickers and drug users. Neither of which, when killed, will be missed. Sure, some of that violence flows into the public, but if you were to take away the number one way for these s.hittheads to make money, you don't think they'll come looking to the public for recoup their lost profits?

Naaaa, let the blood flow in the ranks of the traffickers and users. For every dead trafficekr, it keeps one out of prison.
naive, gringo 3
written by asp, September 03, 2010
that is one narrow minded way to look at it

the amount of money wasted on busting any one having to do with buying or selling marijuana could be put to going after the violent criminals and people who would be stealing or high leval corruption.

many people who are in the marijuana business use guns...if they leglalised marijuana, any one who still wants to use a gun should be thrown in jail

the system is hugely over taxed now and seriously over crowded

the load should be lightened

the system has to put the preasure on the criminals who are really hurting society whether violent traficars or corrupt officials or street theifs and muggers

crack is too dangerous

needless to say, there needs to be a way to get people who dont have hope to be albe to have oportunities to be a part of the society instead of having to go into a sub world economy for upward economic oportunity

the violent ones in society will be violent anyway. and all attention in the world has to be put on law enforcing that, and, corruption . of course, that isnt happening now at all...all over the world

the world is swimming in hypocracy
i dont think like you , gringo 3
written by asp, September 03, 2010
i beleive there are a lot of young men and women who can make mistakes when they are young, and they are not violent or vindictave, and they go to jail for making a naive mistake in their lives

i dont cross them off my list as potential good citizens in society , if they didnt hurt someone in their mistakes.

people who are violent , and will do the most horrendous things ought to be singled out and gone after

i dont have any sympathy for them. but, i do want to see people who dont see much hope in life and make a silly mistake trying to make their own way , get thrown in a prison system that will guarentee they will not be the same when they come out.
asp
written by João da Silva, September 03, 2010

i dont think like you , gringo 3


May I remind you again, sir, that you are extremely vindictive, obnoxious, opinionated, anti democratic, etc; etc; etc;

Welcome to the "CLUB". smilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gif
...
written by gringox3, September 04, 2010
I don't know why you are calling me naive, I agree with much of what you wrote. What I don't agree with is this notion that the prisons are filled with innocent people who have done no wrong other than smoke a joint. Poppyc**ks.

The majority of the prison population is trash. Pure trash. And given the trash still on the streets, Brazil should be building MORE prisons and loading them up too.

There are very few who are in there simply because they smoked a joint. that's a fairytale. And certainly smoking pot shouldn't be a criminal offense, however, the idea that you legalize the entire drug industry and then VOILA, Bermuda wearing incomprehensible parasites from the favelas and middle-class bored playboys will simply say " well it was a nice run of easy cash while it lasted" and move on to legitimate and honorable trades, the domino effect leading to a less violent society, is not only ridiculous but absurd.

No, in all probability, as we've seen when major drug shipments are confiscated, and the market dries up in areas, kidnappings and personal assaults on the middle class increase because these vermin still want their easy cash. That's the crux of the matter. This drug war is all smoke and mirrors, and one of the reasons governments don't want to legalize drugs is because these criminals will redirect their energies to maintain their profits and that doesn't bold well for society.

Most of the violent crimes committed are between users and traffickers, or traffickers and traffickers. I say let them exterminate one another. Sadly, yes, the violence spills out into the general population at times, and that is where we need MORE resources to go after those who I considered the REAL terrorists of the world. But legalizing pot will do nothing to bring down violence. It's not that easy of a fix.

And once again, anyone who commits a crime against another person in this country should simply be locked up forever - but there is NO forever in Brazil's penal system, and THAT's a problem, too.

Violence is high in Brazil, not because resources are poorly distributed and we're locking up innocent people for smoking pot, but because the authorities are either incompetent or corrupt, the judicial system ineffective, politicans self serving, and the population, sadly to a large degree, simply uneducated, ill informed, and apathetic in regards to others.

i dont have any sympathy for them. but, i do want to see people who dont see much hope in life and make a silly mistake trying to make their own way , get thrown in a prison system that will guarentee they will not be the same when they come out.


Nobody does, but you make this out to be the rule and not the exception, where I'd say it's the exception and not the rule.
i never said it would stop the violence...
written by asp, September 04, 2010
i say it would redirect law envorcement more than ever towards the violent criminals


any energy what so ever put into busting shipments of marijuana, and , there is always news about another marijuana bust, could be put into going after violent thugs and arms traficing.

yeah, keep busting crack , but you hardly see reports about arms busts.

and the real problem is letting poverty fester with no hope or future for the young people stuck in the grinding crunch of poverty, where only a few are able to raise themselves out of

in mv bills outstanding docu, the overwelming amount of people getting killed in the traficing game in the favelas are young kids

did you ever raise any kids ? anyone with a son out here can see a point where , through peer preasure, raging testerone and anger at the world in general, that a young person can easily make mistakes

add in brutal poverty (let alone the bull in the china shop , racism)and young people, who are very perceptive to their status in the world , can easily be sucked into some really bad desicians

you just seem to lump everyone into one cesspool that you would like to see destroyed

i say, yeah, go after the violent thugs, but you also have to give a chance to young people in society to find there place, and that doesnt exist in many situations all over the world, not just brazil

i see legalising marijuana and all the tax revenue it would generate to aply to lifting up society,as a big step in the right direction.

in the usa, during the bush years, you cant beleive how many individuals were arrested and jailed for just pot smoking. ill be happy to look for statistics ive seen before and just dont have at hand , to show you. the numbers are astounding and ridiculas. the amount of money for law enforcement to go after pot and pay for incarcerating an individual is unbeleivable.

no , i dont agree with you that legalising pot is small and wont make a differance. its not going to stop violent crime, but it will free up law enforcement to spend more time going after violent individuals and arms traficing, and create jobs and revenue to make some bad situations better. many of these kids you think would just go to other crime might be able to have work growing and or selling legal pot

i agree about going after violent crime , but i see a human face on too many young people getting sucked into crime , and want to change things in society for the ones who want to just find their place in the world

joao...flattery will get you nowhere....
All in favor
written by Simpleton, September 04, 2010
I'm all in favor of enslaving the kids to tend to the garden. I had a choice, go pull weeds or go to Sunday School. Regardless of which I chose my folks would be happy with but it's simple to figure out which one now isn't it.

I see lots of promising kids amongst the pobre. Lots of parents "doing the right thing". The risks for these kids later on are very real even with the best and brightest of them with support structures in place. Early this year one such kid who actually was very well off relative to his friends in the favela having all the video game stuff, a moto, etc., etc., still went and stole something he really didn't need at a store and got caught. Off to jovem prison for the duration of his youth. Strong message to his companions and their families. The mother still can not stop crying - they had done everything right and everything they could all along the way prior.

The traficantes will run anything and everything and those with nothing or less will sometimes come to the aid of desiring users for a negligible benefit and end up getting busted for peddling. I'm sorry asp, but pulling pot out of the mix on the top and upper middle end of the chain won't stop them with all the other stuff and gringass is probably right, they'll just turn to something more sinister and menacing to society to make up the profits.
well, i didnt say it would stop the violence....
written by asp, September 04, 2010
what is said and i dont understand what is so hard to get this, it will stop wasting valuable police enforcement time and money on busting pot , and , allow the focus to be on the violent crime and corruption and arms dealing...

i mean you do understand that there are lots of big marijuana busts in brazil. how much time and money was invested in that ? how much attention did law enforcement officers give that , that took away from attention they could give to policing violent areas of a favela...

it took lots attention, man hours and money , i guarentee you...

these drugs are enormous business stretching a lot farther than just favelas with payoffs in every leval of society.

the figures are astounding. the marijuana figures should start coming directly into society in a legal taxable way...

but, more than anything, it was letting favelas fester in the first place , with no help to the poor people in them , for decades and decades that has led to this.it let gangs take over, there was no monitering and real addressing the problem . and it just has grown to a sub world and economy....

i dont buy the if you legalise marijuana they will just do something else (they already are, look at internet theft). it will give much more recource and attention to the law enforcement to be able to go after the real violent thugs who would do in anyway.

why you and gringo 3 cant understand that is beyond me

but, most important of all is having some kind of support system for young people so they wont be so left out hanging in the wind in society and fall into peer preasure to do bad things.there is a lot of hopelessness in poverty ....everywhere in the world

there is a lot of violence in poverty , all over the world...

there a lot of coldness , indifferance and violence coming from a lot of the uber rich people in the world
the truth is....
written by asp, September 04, 2010
these problems could be solved

all kinds of creative solutions exist that could solve many problems in the world

it is cold hypocrisy that keeps these problems in place and prevents good solutions from taking hold
asp
written by João da Silva, September 04, 2010

joao...flattery will get you nowhere....


I wasn't flattering you,but..but..but.. complimenting you for your ruthlessness.smilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/grin.gif

these problems could be solved

all kinds of creative solutions exist that could solve many problems in the world


I am impressed with this statement of yours, written with passion and conviction. Hope ch.c gets to read this while he is in the (Un)Democratic Republic of Congo on his philandering trip.smilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/grin.gif
...
written by WTLB, September 04, 2010
How admirable!
to see lightning and not think
life is fleeting.
there are reasons things get to be the way they are....
written by asp, September 05, 2010
ASP I post this again, because I don't think you read it
written by gringox3, September 05, 2010
Violence is high in Brazil, not because resources are poorly distributed and we're locking up innocent people for smoking pot, but because the authorities are either incompetent or corrupt, the judicial system ineffective, politicians self-serving, and the population, sadly to a large degree, simply uneducated, ill informed, and apathetic in regards to others.


You don't need to redirect efforts, just improve the pathetic efforts that exist. Agreed, busting an idiot for smoking a joint is absurd, but legalizing pot will do nothing, other than force criminals to double their efforts in pushing crack at schools. The advantage of the drug war is that drug dealers kill one another saving everyone time and effort and resources.
gtingo 3, understand what i always said....
written by asp, September 05, 2010
i never said legalising pot would stop the violence...

i always said it would free up law enforcement to better address violence...and put more effort into busting more crack and arms dealing

i also always said then they would have that much recource to go after the violent thugs and the CORRUPTION ......

i dont see any conflict to what im saying...

...
written by gringox3, September 06, 2010
You keep missing the point. legalizing pot could increase violence in good neighbourhoods as dealers and other s**theads look for other ways to earn fast cash...

Freeing up law enforcement does nothing, when law enforcment is incompetent from the start.

Having drug dealers shoot one another helps society more than making their profession legal.

Jails are NOT filled with innocent dope smokers, that's a red herring. I don't see any conflict in what I am saying either.
its illegal and things just get more violent already...
written by asp, September 06, 2010
you are saying it "could " get worse

its illegal and things are just getting more violent anyway

i dont get any kind of feeling like "oh im safe because they are just shooting each other"

you paint broad strokes as though there are hordes of favela thugs who would just start being violent to the rich people , looking for more illegal activities , if pot was legal..

i say that people who are violent are going to be violent anyway

i just dont beleive that all the young people , in the marijuana traficing, who carry guns and shoot at each other would just automaticly start going out looking for violence in other communities

their violence has as much to do with protecting their own territory than just looking for anywhere outside their neigborhood to look for violence.

the violent people, that need to be cracked down on ,are the ones that are violent anyway, who do crimes anyway like asaults, kidnapping, rapes , armed robberies , muggings...those people fade into the network of marijuana traficing, but if pot was legalised, there could be more focus on these people who would be violent anyway

and beleive me, pot dealing is not curtailing these peoples kidnapping, muggings , asaults etc

more important than legalising marijuana , is creating some oportunities for the young people that are into drug traficing , in violent gangs protecting their territory , so they have some alternatives and oportunities to get out of the poverty that drives them to drug traficing.

corrupt police ? well, they exist everywhere, and , that just has to be addressed all on its own. stopping violent criminals wont be happen if the police dont have more integrity
Hand clap!
written by adrianerik, September 16, 2010
smilies/smiley.gif

Hey ASP, I had been wanting to give a shout out for your posts on this issue. They have been dead on. Malcolm X once said (paraphrase) that we need to avoid defining social situations with 'labels' thereby placing things in an emotional context rather than concrete words that can be measured, evaluated and confirmed.

"Animals' are savage creatures that we shoot.

"Addicts" are human beings who stumbled.

Considering that 70% of drug use is by the middle class, including many professionals, then we should be happy to see more of these 'animals' killing each other off.

America's police was not responsible for the reduction of the crack epidemic in the 80's and 90's.

It was the proliferation of jobs.

What a miracle!
Will Brazil ever change?
written by Edson Bernardo, September 20, 2010
I have been back in Brazil for 2 years now, during these last couple of years I had the channce to visit the numerous favelas, ghettos, charity institutions, and rich people, and my sad conclusion is:

It will take hundreds of year before Brazil can turn into a wealthy and developed nation. Many people think that wealth brings education and intelligence, and it is the contracy, the more evoved the citizens of a country become, fighting for a right cause, for rights the more prosperous it will get.

My experience in Brazil haven´ been the best, and I doubt it it will get better. Poor people in Brazil are highly prejudice, the prejudice only ends when it comes to buying out some beers to your compadres.

Women dress like sluts, and gays act vulgarly, police officers become serial killers low classes idolize criminal factions.

I am still shocked that we will host a world cup and an Olimpic games.
My experience being a Brazilian, seeing the quality of life deteriorating day by day and the hipocrisy of many people has led me to believe, that the problem in Brazil is not only governmental, it is also due to an ignorant population, whom once have been given the right drugs and right alcohol, or once their religion steals up some heavy cash, they will be okay.

We developed unfortunately this reputation that we are warm hearted people, I tell you we are not, we can be as brutal as the most brutal civilizations, we are destroying our population, we have motto to justify robbery : Ele rouba, mas faz, estupra mais nao mata! WE have funk groups singing hail to PCC and and to the criminal activities.

We sing to God, but destroy our nature, and many Braziians do expect that United States fail,so they can tell to themselves look they failed.
No we are no better than any poor miserable nation, and I think it is time for us to open up our eyes, and the world to see that Brazil does not give a damn to Human Rights, don´t you think if we truly did, a bunch of educated men, judges, doctors, borgeous and that jazz, would have done something about it.

It make take more than thousands of years, and we may never get there.

While Brazilians continue to idolize corruption, easy sex, and all that fun, and not read, not study and steal from their neibhboors, Brazil will only be Brazil, we are far from being a wealthy nation, and far from being civilized.

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