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Black and White: Marveling at a Brazil Where Racial Rules Are Learned Early in Life PDF Print E-mail
2010 - September 2010
Written by Francis Wardle   
Wednesday, 29 September 2010 14:32

Girls, one white, one blackI just returned from another wonderful trip to Brazil. I have been visiting that fascinating country for over 10 years, and on each of my visits I learn something new and different. On my latest visit one of the things I did was to spend time at a little fazenda. It wasn't really a farm; rather a small vineyard, vegetable garden, and flower garden nestled on the side of a rocky, mountainous area with a small stream running through it.

There were two small houses - one for the owners, who live in a large city some 250 kilometers away, and the other one for the help - who care for the vineyard, gardens, chickens and a few horses.

I drove from the city to the fazenda with the owners. We were going to stay a couple of days, and enjoy a pick-nick with a few neighbors, friends and relatives. We turned off the hardtop road onto a very rough, dirt and boulder track. This track ended at the bottom of the steep hill at the farm.

After I explored the two gardens, marveling at a variety of healthy vegetables and colorful flowers - calla lilies and a beautiful red flower - which the owners took home with them on their return to the city (I grow both vegetables and flowers at my home in the United States, although on a smaller scale) and gazed at the dazzling swath of bright purple bougainvillea next to the house,

I joined the group for drinks and appetizers. After the appetizers and lively conversation, we settled into some great Minas Gerais country food. The group was made up of adults, with several college students (attending college activities in the nearby town), and two young girls.

One child was the daughter of the couple who care for the vineyard, garden and animals, and who prepared the wonderful food; the other was a relative of the owners. The domestic servants' daughter was about 10 years old; the other girl about 9 years old.

While socializing with the adults, I watched these two girls with interest. I am a teacher and child psychologist, so children's behaviors fascinate me. Further, it was more relaxing and enjoyable watching them play than trying to decipher the rapid Portuguese spoken all around me!

These two girls would disappear beyond the beautiful bougainvillea bush, down by the garden and the stream. They seemed to be having a great time in the wild brush and bamboo stands. They also rode a big, white horse, sitting bareback together and having a great time riding up by the vineyard. Occasionally they would dart into the house of the family who looked after the place, engaging in fantasy and housekeeping games girls this age seem to enjoy.

They were obviously very good friends, and enjoyed each other's company tremendously.

On a regular basis the girl related to the owners would join the adult group. She sat with us to listen to the latest gossip about friends and family; she also joined us to partake of the wonderful food prepared by her friend's mother. She would seamlessly slip between the world of the owners and the world of the domestic servants.

But her friend would never cross the line into the groups of adults in the main part of the house. She would occasionally come in through the back door to check in with her mother in the kitchen, but then she would retreat outside through the same door.

The family who cared for the farm and prepared the wonderful meal were what we in the Untied States would call African Americans (Afro Brazilians); the other girl, while much lighter than her friend, would probably be considered Hispanic in the U.S., based on her appearance (while labeled Moreno in Brazil), but she would also be considered white, since her family is European (Portuguese).

While I watched these two friends play, with the white girl moving between two worlds, but the black girl religiously keeping to her own, servant world, I marveled at a society that trained people so early in their lives and so effectively to play according to society's stick social rules.

[Here is where my Brazilian friends like to bring up our (U.S.) history of racism, and their belief in how racist a society the U.S. still is. It's not my intent to compare the two here. For what its worth, I have been married for over 30 years to an African American, and I have helped to raise and educate of four children of mixed-racial heritage in the U.S.].

On all my visits to Brazil, I have stayed with wonderful friends in their homes. Since most of my friends are typically from Brazil's middle and upper class, almost all of them had domestic servants - sometimes a woman; other times an entire family.

And, while these servants were of every shade of color, they invariably were a few shades darker than their bosses, who would not necessarily be considered white by U.S. standards. And when these domestic servants had children of a similar age to the owners, these children would be close friends, enjoying each other's company with little concern for social class, as children do.

While I have never seen servants mistreated, I am constantly fascinated by the relationship between the employer and employee, and the fact that a country attempting to be a world leader has such a deeply institutionalized, inequitable and racists system.

One particular example stands out in my mind. A 16-year-old girl was the servant for a single, professional woman (a teacher) and her two adult children - one with a child. She would do the laundry, cook meals, make the beds, and clean the rooms of these two adults. Yes, the beds of the grown children!

My own children were doing their own laundry by about 11-years-old, and, while they did not always make their beds, no one would do it for them. Once their rooms got too messy to tolerate, they would clean them up themselves.

Sure we have nannies in the United States. Many people also make a good living cleaning houses. And there are after-school and weekend programs, along with an entire array of sports options, available for children. But it's different.

Middle-class families in America cannot afford nannies and servants; occasionally they might hire someone to help clean their home. And these service people are not second-class citizens - they are themselves part of middle-class America (maids in hotels and motels are a different matter).

I know Lula's government has increased the minimum wage, pays parents when their children attend school, created new universities and expanded old ones  (although, given the sorry state of public schools, I am not sure where the new students will come from - see Improving Brazil's Public Schools: Nine Recommendations, in www.brazzil.com - http://www.brazzil.com/component/content/article/206-july-2009/10219-improving-brazils-public-schools-nine-recommendations.html), and is investing in preschool programs throughout the country.

But I wonder how these changes will impact this highly institutionalized, totally inequitable system, which seems so permanently embedded within contemporary Brazilian culture.

And I wonder what the future holds for the little black girl I saw ridging a beautiful white horse, and playing hide-and-seek with her friend under an expansive bougainvillea bush and behind the bamboo stands.

Francis Wardle has a Ph.D. in Education (University of Kansas). He has been a Head Start director, education director of Children's World Learning Centers (a national childcare and education corporation), a teacher, and a program director for Big Brothers & Sisters. Currently Dr. Wardle teaches for the University of Phoenix (online) and Red Rocks Community College (Denver). He has published four college textbooks and over 300 articles in a variety of educational magazines and journals.



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Comments (191)Add Comment
Nice Piece
written by Luigi Vercotti, September 29, 2010
I enjoyed your article. I'm an American/Brazilian, spent most of my life in the US but many years in Brazil. The little servant girl on the horse will become a servant soon, and eventually marry a farmhand and produce more servants. It's an almost impossible path for the lower class in Brazil to move up. (Lotto or soccer...). It always fascinates me when I hear Brazilians talk about how the US is a racist place, and that Brazil is a melting pot; wrong on both counts.
I am constantly fascinated by the relationship between the employer and employee, and the fact that a country attempting to be a world leader has such a deeply institutionalized, inequitable and racis
written by ch.c, September 29, 2010
Brazilians repeatedly say there is no racism in Brazil ! CORRECT ?????????
Laugh.....laugh.....laugh....laugh !!!!!
Everyone in this planet know how Brazilians are cheating, hiding and lying on the sad truth !

We all know how Brazilians ENJOY burning people in buses, doing horribles crimes.......OH MY!!!!!!!!! OH mY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More archaic and medieval than Brazil, it is hard to find on this planet !!!!!!
Your society is totally sick and full of perverted people !

And racism and slavery are not a world apart and they are closely linked. Has Brazil no more slaves....in 2010......despite slavery was abolished 120 years ago ????????

Strange that the only ones saying there is no racism in Brazil are the Brazilians Whites !!!!!!!!

It is like asking the KKK if they are racists ! I bet they will say NOOOOOOOO, Not at all !!!!!


Laugh.....laugh.....laugh..... !!!!!!!
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Black and White live happy together
written by daisy, September 29, 2010
Whyyyyyyyyyy so many people are interested in an interracial relationship. black woman want to have fun with white man and black guys want to have fun with white women. There are many sites focusing on this kind of relationships such as ﹏﹏﹏ black Century ﹋ C o m ﹏﹏﹏ recommend it here
But I wonder how these changes will impact this highly institutionalized, totally inequitable system, which seems so permanently embedded within contemporary Brazilian culture.
written by ch.c, September 29, 2010

LIVES ARE CHEAP....IN BRAZIL
And then Robbing Hook and his gangs DEFEND the poors, APPARENTLY !


Dont be surprised that your violence will never ever go down but up over time. GUARANTEED !

Brazil remains one of the world most UNJUST society....even with Lula as President.

Hmmmmmmm ! Brazilians medias, politicians, government members, Bin the Crook and his 4000 liars, truly excel at hiding the sad truth.....by explaining the opposite of the truth !
Dont they ?

How many times have I said that if a minority of 5-10 % eat 70 % of the cake......the remaining 90-95 % will have to share the remaining 30 % ???

That is what I have been telling here...for years !!!!!

I defy anyone to prove me wrong !

You are betrayed daily by the people you elected and you continue to elect them.....election after election !!!!
More masochists than Brazilians...there is not.
the harsher they are with you, the more you love them.

Viva the Brazilian vote buying practices. Viva the corruptions at all levels....including the red tapes !
Viva the Brazilian INJUSTICE for having one of the World Highest Social Inequality !

BRAZ-ZEROES.....BRAZ-ZEROES.....BRAZZEROES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

smilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/grin.gif
Interesting
written by Boilermaker, September 30, 2010
Two students from Brazil, one light skinned and the other looking like an African were studying in Arizona were picked up by Sheriff Arapaio's men...can you guess who got picked up? If you guess the African, you are wrong!
Class and Race - Not always the Same
written by Ben Ellis, October 01, 2010
I sometimes have to wonder whether we place emphasis on things that are not the issue, in this case race or skin colour. The scene you paint in your article happens all over Southern Africa with middle class Africans and African servants, in some countries the scene might have been a little bit less cordial, for example, the owner's children would never be allowed in the servants' quarters. The place that that little girl understands is class not race - in Brazil that is unfortunately nearly always equated to skin colour. Simply this, the white/European was the land and slave owner and therefore his descendants have already got an advantage in life - reversing 'old' money is difficult, for instance, there are generations of (white) working class people in the UK that cannot see their way out of their circumstances. For centuries, miners begat miners, blacksmiths begat blacksmiths etc. Poverty is a trend that is difficult to reverse and that it is why it is the duty of the state to provide the opportunities to allow those who wish to change their social status the opportunity to do so. I know working class people who do not want to become middle class! This issue goes very deep. Mugabe, in Zimbabwe, attempted (ignoring the manner in which it was done) to reverse this status quo with the redistribution of land, an issue Brazil itself is facing in the West and one that Namibia is attempting to address and one that South Africa will face in the very near future.

Just my 10 pence/cents worth.
written by ch.c, September 29, 2010 Brazilians repeatedly say there is no racism in Brazil ! CORRECT ????????? Laugh.....laugh.....laugh....laugh !!!!!
written by ch.c., October 01, 2010
HELLO EVERYONE THERE, ESPECIALLY TO JOAO !
WELLLL i see that someone, either a Braz-zero or a Yankee triple belly is writing comments using my ID.

Anyway...so it is !

I am doing fine. this is the first comment I make since I left several weeks ago.
Life is great and taking good care of me. Travelling here or there.

Here is an interesting Bloomberg article with comments I have made time and time again in the recent and not so recent past.

Nothing has changed....nothing has changed :

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-01/rousseff-s-election-pledges-may-lift-brazilian-rates-next-year.html

As you can see Your GDP yearly growth rate from 2003-2009 during the Robbing Hook reign was not as exceptional as he pretended to be.
And this despite Robbing Hook famous cheating in his new methodology !
3.57 %

A true joke.
A mirage, not a miracle economy !

And as to ch.c wanna be, the arsh-hole using my ID, dont worry I would not even let you lick my rear !!!
So feel free to lick your donkey stick !
That still wont make you any smarter.

Cordially to nearly all...mostly !
smilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/wink.gifsmilies/wink.gifsmilies/wink.gif
writing comments using ch.c's id
written by asp, October 01, 2010
cmon cheeky.....you're so full of s**t

same rehashed statistics you always word vomited out

again, you flunk, it gets really tired to read your endlessly long insecure posts that are so flawed....

such blatent ridiculas statements
...
written by Triple-Dot, October 02, 2010

I am doing fine.


So am I.

this is the first comment I make since I left several weeks ago.


Hopefully it is the last comment. Why did you leave your wife?

Travelling here or there.


By hot air balloon?

Here is an interesting Bloomberg article with comments I have made time and time again in the recent and not so recent past.


Yawn...yawn...yawn.....

A true joke.


What´s the joke?

BTW, what exactly does GDP mean?
...
written by A Brazilian, October 02, 2010
If indeed you educated your children in the US then all I have to say is ONE DROP RULE.

In Brazil there's no such thing. The "differences" were merely projections of your own racist mind.

The US is one of the most racist countries in the world. Brazil is paradise in comparison.
Educated?
written by adrianerik, October 02, 2010
And you? You were educated in Brazil and this is how you were taught to compare two repressive societies.

How about Hitler versus Stalin? Which one was paradise?

You are the one who think that you can use all of the poison of racism and white supremacy that is used by every racist society: your blue-eyed gods, your whitening of Iemanja, your white church with its white 'saints', your idolization of a white dominance of history, your white novellas, your hierarchical standards from white 'down' to preto, yet all you have to do is drink beer with someone darker than you and none of that affects Brazilian society.

I don't compare racist societies. None is 'better' than the other. I don't compare brutal attacks, none is better than the other. I don't compare being raped by one, versus being raped by a dozen. None is better than the other.

The goals of white supremacy is not always genocide as in the early european invasions of the so-called Americas where, in one area, a population of 11 million was reduced to 40,000 in 30 years.

The goal of white supremacy is to maintain the perception that the nobility of one color is higher than the nobility of another.

Whether evil is done with eyes wide open, as in the United States, or with eyes 'wide' closed as in Brazil...it achieves the same thing.



The US is one of the most racist countries in the world.
written by A Smart Brazilian, October 03, 2010
600,000+ Americans died in the Civil War over slavery.....the U.S. was the first country to abolish slavery.

What facts do you have that supersedes those???????????????
Black Braz-zero losers
written by ch.c, October 03, 2010

In life there are white winners and black losers.
And white winners are always smarter and better than black losers, by definition !
As true in sports (except basketsball) or economy, or development, or wealth, or infrastructure, or healthcare, or education, or pollution, etc etc etc !

And dark losers are very good at criticizing WINNERS !

And WHITE WINNERS LAUGHS !
They are telling losers, "CHOOSE YOUR CAMP!"
It is not difficult to be in the winners camp unless the camp is Swiss!
Suffice to more or less COPY what the winners do !

Unfortunately, I know I am right !

Unfortunately for you Black Brazilians, Black Gringos and Black EU members !

But that is YOUR FAULT !
Because YOU elected YOUR LEADERS !

And for example, WHEN have brazilians made several large streets demonstrations fighting CORRUPTIONS, VOTE BUYING and MEGA HIGH INTERESTS RATES ?????

NEVER EVER FOR SURE !

Reality being that MEGA HIGH BANKS INTERESTS RATES are very positive for a few, not the majority.
Yessss....yesssss it allows banks to hire too many UNNECESSARY employees !
Somewhat the same at your state owned or state controlled companies.
And same again for your various governments. from municipalities, to states to central government and its many agencies.

Ohhhh and all these UNNECESSARY jobs have also generous salaries (comparatively to the real private sector) and pensions !

Thus you all dream to be hired in public companies or governments !

But let me tell you all this :
A Billion currency over spent were it is UNNECESSARY, CANNOT be spent again where it is NECESSARY !
Such as in education, healthcare, roads, rails, utilies, garbage collection or for social projects !

Common sense will always surface ! Uncommon sense too !

You are slowly but surely going to pay a dear price in the years ahead. Dont ask me when, because I dont know.
Thus it is not a questionn of IF but WHEN !
Exactly the same than in your famous infamous past.
And nearly the same as IN THE PIIGS countries !
I said nearly as the PIIGS countries, because these countries CAN NO LONGER PRINT THEIR CURRENCY.
YOU CAN !
Thus they, they were recently punished with higher rates !

Your problem is that your government is already punished with higher rates, since Brazil has the World Highest Interets Rates, after inflation !
Thus sooner or later, it will be your currency & your rates that will be punished !

Tsssk tsssk that is not for the near term !

Every brazilian junkie, including foreign junkies, afre 100000 % sure that the recent and actual BRL strength is due to its fundamental. MY ANSWER IS NOOOOOOO BUT because you are doing ok and still pay the World Highest Rate...after inflation.
This is called...carry trades !
And who do you think make the largest and easiest profits ?
THE LENDER, NOT THE BORROWER, by definition !

Black LOSERS, LOSERS, LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How disgusting
written by skarrlette, October 03, 2010
CH.C is horrible! How can he/she say these things?
how can he/she say these things
written by asp, October 03, 2010
it's a he and he is a f**king piece of s**t

biggest insecure wind bag

disregard him......like mother f**king dog s**t on the sidewalk.....he'll dry up and hopefully go away

f**k him and f**k switzerland ......land of f**king cowards
some bitch stole my id
written by asp, October 03, 2010
ok, there is a little punk bitch who stole my id

so f**k you up the ass
ch c...
written by asp, October 03, 2010
i can see on another thread that i thought you were repeating youself, but,some a*****e just stole your id

and he did it to me in the last posts on this thread, i didnt say any of this crap
...
written by johan, October 03, 2010
The article was typical bleeding heart liberalism, yawn. The comments were written in tne main by incoherent and illerate people. What a waste of web hosting space!
...
written by Triple-Dot, October 03, 2010

And white winners are always smarter and better than black losers, by definition !


I dunno about it, ole boy. your definition is a bit illogical. What happens if you compare white losers and black winners. May be Switzerland doesn't have many blacks and plenty of white losers and thus it is impossible to set standards- even Swiss standards, by DEFINITION.

May be Switzerland doesn't have many blacks and plenty of white losers and thus it is impossible to set standards- even Swiss standards, by DEFINITION.
written by ch.c, October 03, 2010
You want the losers....we want the winners.

A little secret now : Geneva is not courting those who have lost jobs, but those who still have their offshore hedge fun.
Geneva has been ranked 2nd after Zurich for the most liveliest place on earth.
And I bet 10 to zero that people need LESS time to go to work than in SP.
Better yet, the security climate and the cleanliness is 20 TIMES better here than SP.
Not to mention the tax deals we offer....of course ! smile

Fact being this ranking is done by high business executives.....if you did not know !!!!!!

sorry buddy.....it is not me who made the rankings !

Here you will hardly need more than 20 minutes to go to work...by car !!!!!! Also I work mostly from home....I just WALK 10 minutes and I am at the center of the main shopping street...where there is also my office. I can walk 200 meters more and I am at the border of the lake. Can walk 7 minutes and I am at the rail station. The airport is a 15-20 minutes drive from the city center. Take a map and within a 600 miles radius...we have most Europeans Capitals.
And all these capitals can be reached easily by car, train or plane.
We have the world best infrastructure.
Drive 1-2 hours and I am in a ski resort, Swiss or French.
To go to Cannes, Nice, St-Tropez or Monaco is a 5-6 hours drive. Around the same for Genoa, Marseille, Milano, etc etc etc.
Paris is a 5-6 hours drive or 60 minutes or so by plane.
Nice being a 80 minutes distance by plane if I want.

Stupid question buddy : why 200 International agencies have chosen Geneva as their headquarters and not SP or Rio....if it is so good...there ?????

Finally....SP is a very dirty city ! Not Geneva....if you are not aware !!!!!

Ohhhh simple stats : the 2 SP airports in 2007 had 35 millions passengers for a state of 40 millions people.
Geneva airports had 11 millions passengers for a state 450'000 people.
Do the simple maths...and see who is the most appreciated !!!!

Laugh.....laugh.....laugh....laugh !!!!!

Ohhhhhh TRIPLE IDIOT.....before talking something you have no idea about....spend a few minutes looking for sources of informations !

SUCH AS

2009 Switzerland debts to GDP 39 %. THE LOWEST OF All developed nations...and lower than many emerging nations !

Ahhhh.....ahhhh TRIPLE IDIOT

2009 Switzerland ended with a BUDGET SURPLUS !!!!!

Ahhhhh....ahhhhh TRIPLE IDIOT with a penis the size of a clito but with a beer belly and fats at your hips and rear from your JUNK foods full of HORMONES !

smilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gif
CH
written by [eter, October 04, 2010
CH SHOULD PUBLISH. HE IS HILARIOUS ---AND WELL INFORMED
...
written by A Brazilian, October 05, 2010
I don't compare racist societies.


You don't compare because then it would obvious that very few places would match the US in terms of racal degeneracy.

Whether evil is done with eyes wide open, as in the United States, or with eyes 'wide' closed as in Brazil...it achieves the same thing.


Really? The Brack racists goals is a full blown segregation between people's and the perpetuation of racial identities.

While in Brazil there's mixing, it works both ways. The so called "african" descendents won't stay african for too long, but also the others won't stay like they are for long as well. In the end a true Brazilian kind emerges, and that's best for everyone.
Racism is societal, not biological
written by adrianerik, October 05, 2010
A mixed person raised in a racist system and accepting the hierarchy of a racist system still makes it a racist system.

All you have to do is look at the Hutu and Tutsi of Rwanda who for thousands of years lived together (along with the Twa). They did not consider their different noses and heights to be anything "racial" to judge the other.

However, when the Germans and then the Belgiums came and singled out the Tutsi because they were more "white looking" the Tutsis accepted the designation and began to believe that they were "better" than than Tutsis.

White Racism! Between two black peoples. (White because the basis of the Tutsis' bigotry was using "whiteness" as the standard.)

You have to challenge the roots of white supremacy. The skewed history. The hijacking of the gospel of Jesus by Constantine and then the so-called papacy and the political (not religious) institution of saints. The rooting of the foundation of mathematics in Greece rather than in India and then Arabia (where where the word "al-jebr" (algebra) came from. ("al-gebr" means equaling leading to the science of equations).

Just like the Tutsis, it is a fallacy to look at how skin color is merged to suggest that racism is falling. One looks at whether a "merged" worldview is being formed. Or whether white supremacy simply talks through brown, tan, cinnamon, cinnamon claro, mel, mel-claro or whatever color lips.

entendeu?
...
written by Charles Scott, October 05, 2010
"While I have never seen servants mistreated, I am constantly fascinated by the relationship between the employer and employee, and the fact that a country attempting to be a world leader has such a deeply institutionalized, inequitable and racists system".You have said all that needs to be said. @Ben Ellis, what you failed to mention is that in all those countries, there is a path for the poor to rise, become educated and be part of the middle class, further, the poorer class is not marked by color. As for Ch. c, you are an illiterate, a Black man Phillip Emegwali holds patents for computer trademarks among others. Brazillians like to say there is no racism in Brazil. The racism I have witnessed in Brazil is second only to that of South Africa. If things do not change, Brazil will be greatly embarassed during the world cup and the olympics. BTW, The writer should not hang out with such "friends" that will not allow a househelp's daughter eat from their table.They are not good people.
...
written by Triple-Dot, October 05, 2010

As for Ch. c, you are an illiterate


No he is NOT, but...but..but... you are one.
...
written by Triple-Dot, October 05, 2010

Geneva is not courting those who have lost jobs, but those who still have their offshore hedge fun.
Geneva has been ranked 2nd after Zurich for the most liveliest place on earth.


You the elected or self appointed mayor of Geneva? What is "offshore hedge fun"?
You the elected or self appointed mayor of Geneva? What is "offshore hedge fun"?
written by ch.c, October 05, 2010

TRIPLE IDIOT....TRIPLE IDIOT....TRIPLE IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My job....Independent hedge fund manager. Managing about 400 millions dollars, from my home office, no worker or assistantsss or secretaries, no salary, no office rents in the city !

Ohhhhh and I am also in partnerships with a few JV.
One is we have built from scratch a PREMIUM GOURMET COFFEE FARM IN CENTER WEST,BRAZIL USING PIVOTS CENTERS FOR IRRIGATION ! aND WE ARE NOW VERY CLOSE TO SELL THAT FARM ! What we built was not only the producing farm, but also all the distribution channel to medium and large wholesellers in Continental Europe, UK, Russia and Middle East. We also have a "small" warehouse in Italy.

ohhhh we want to do USA residential real estate in one of my other JV. But we will borrow Chwiss Francs. We are well connected with local banks. WE DO NOT WANT U.S. banks rates robbers and want to play the currency at the time than the real estate play.
so much easy...with Chwiss Banks !

OK TRIPLE IDIOT ??????????????????????????????????

And for your info only, in Geneva alone the very conservative estimates of clients assets are about 1,8 trillion dollars.
VERY CONSERVATIVE...SWISS DISCRETION OBLIGE ! The 1,8 trillion is a public estimate as of early 2009 published after Madoff !
Over here, intermediaries lost 10 billions or so. Bot bad for a 450'000 state ! But this was by far not from local investors, but foreigners !

And my cursus is 30 years of work for Americans Brokers in Geneva. 1972-2002 !
Merrill Lynch for 14 years, Prudential 14 years and 3 years in between in a small shop. Retail broker at Merrill, institutional at Prudential. Senior VP investments. But I laughed with my title. I did earn 1 cent due to my "title". We were simply paid on commissions we generated. + Bonus. Nothing else !

I am a giver. Very Generous giver. I have my own Private foundation.
And believe it or not, despite being Swiss, I dont give to Swiss charities. WHY ? Because either they are not to the standard I expect in Financial Transparency or because they are but then they are very successful and thus dont need my money.
That may seem contradictory, but it is not.
My heart goes to GENEROUS hearts, but not very smart money raisers ! I give money but then I expect THEM to be smarter on how to effectively raise money.
In short....creating a website in the hope some people will find it and give money, is a thing of the past. Failure (little money raised from individuals here and there) is almost a Guarantee !

Better to locate where the BIG money is. Namely very wealthy people, but better yet Corporate Donations.

Anyway...good luck to you TRIPLE IDIOT with a with a triple beer belly and fats at your hips!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
smilies/shocked.gifsmilies/shocked.gifsmilies/shocked.gifsmilies/shocked.gifsmilies/shocked.gifsmilies/shocked.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gif
Triple-Dot
written by ..,, October 05, 2010
Komrad ch.c's hometown is Bern and lives there for about 6 months a year. The other 6 months, he spends in Harare doing some consulting work for Bob. In case you don't know, Bob is the President of Zimbabwe and ch.c has been hired as his Minister of Finance...BUT...BUT...BUT...., he is always willing to stop in for tea and crumpets on the plantation. smilies/wink.gifsmilies/cheesy.gif
Adrianerik
written by A Brazilian, October 06, 2010
Spin, spin, spin... Excuses, more excuses, more excuses.

Arabs and Indians aren't black by the way. And the influence of Arabs were never denied by anyone, because many terms are directly derived from the Arabic language.

So, let's talk about the subject at hand. So the solution according to Americans is segregation?

The article in question says nothing of value, except the projections of the author interpreting something as a "racial" problem. Since when do you see employees behaving like the owners of the home? In other countries they wouldn't even socialize with the upper classes. They aren't "equals" in an employer/employee relationship.

So did you expect the maids wearing the owners clothes, drinking the owner's wine and using their stuff like it was nothing?

There's a path of ascension for lower class people Brazil and there always was. Many people have done it, including my family.

The US is the most racist place on Earth, let's talk about the ONE DROP RULE. How can you explain away such a thing?

And the worst part is, IT IS STILL ALIVE EVEN TODAY. This is not something that existed hundreds of years ago, it is contemporary US.

Do you need any other example of a well established racial hierarchy? I mean, in the US the white "blood" is considered so superior that any drop of any other type of blood is suficient to taint it in such a way that turns it into something completely different. It is no longer "pure" enough.

Come on, adrianerik, let's talk about your racist societ.

That's the pathological inferiority complex of American blacks. They are like dirt infecting "pure blood".

BRAZIL IS PARADISE IN COMPARISON.
...
written by Triple-Dot, October 06, 2010

In case you don't know, Bob is the President of Zimbabwe and ch.c has been hired as his Minister of Finance...BUT...BUT...BUT...., he is always willing to stop in for tea and crumpets on the plantation.


You mean to say ch.c is helping Bob to loot and rob the poor people of Zimbabwe and sharing the spoils?
adrianerik
written by adrianerik, October 06, 2010
@brazilian -

Sorry to have smoked your small brain. If you don't understand what racism is ("spin spin spin") then I understand why Brazilian society might never address it.

You understand very little of American society.

Brazil is so lucky to have "non"racists such as you. I meet "you" every day in Brazil. The "non-racists". Funny people.

It's so clear that your definition of racism has to do with your "ascension out of poverty". Economics. Good for you. I'm proud of your family.

Yet you are still a pawn to racism and affected by it when you think that it matters whether "good ole white folks" opens the doors and accepts "you" as one of "them" so that you are not one of the "others".

(that's going to go over your head). Sorry.

I don't feel bad when kindergarten kids don't let me play with their marbles.

Neither do I give one nano-tear about what one normal, no-better-than-me, no-less-than-me, gotta-pee-as-I-do, gotta-grunt-to-s**t like I go, people, who happen to have an absence of melanin, think of great ole me. The problem is theirs.

I like that about African Americans!!! Not all, but a lot of us.

It is so obvious, in my humble opinion, of Brazilian society that that is not the case.

You do care. Not all of you, but too many of you. A pity.

Adrianerik
written by A Brazilian, October 07, 2010
Your lack of objectivity only demonstrate your inability to articulate your position.

A "pawn of racism"? Only because you say so? Be objective.

Let's talk facts now. Specifics. Name names.

African-Americans are victims. Whining, begging, crying, etc. An entire "identity" created around victimhood.

Identities are evil in themselves because they are used as mind control devices. Identities, especially in the US where zombies such as Adrianerik fight so hard over them, are just templates for people. A false self provided by the Powers that Be to replace your real self, a set of rules to replace real thinking. And through which the mind control slave will be evaluated and compelled into conformance. No deviations are allowed.

Such techniques of mind control have existed since the beginning of times. They are used in religion, politics, marketing, etc. Racial politics is just another layer of control.

See, I know more about the US then all of you who write for this website. Obviously the term "land of the free" was a sarcastic quip. Such a thing never existed in the United States.

As for what we can see through the sorry excuses for human beings around here, their minds are as bound and enslaved as it can get.

Pay attention now, they never speak in individual terms, but always in collectives. Never specifics, always generalities. Never objective, always emotional.
what a bunch of idiots there are in this forum
written by ch.c., October 07, 2010
I wrote only one comment above. the one that said it is not me....for all the other comments using my ID !

And to the braz-zero talking about foreigners in Switzerland, you should first surf the net and you would find this...
Switzerland has 22 % of its LEGAL resident population WITHOUT A SWISS PASSPORT !
Geneva....50 % ! Without even counting the many forreign diplomats and their families and without the many illegals.

And this is not even including those who acquired it over the years through marriage, etc etc


And to the idiot who wrote Brazil is a paradise for blacks :
Ohhhhh yessssss in the many tens thousands favelas...of course !
And those blacks working as slave labors in the whites latifundio farms....obviously.
Right....idiot ?
and it is such a paradise that 1 million braz-zeros prefer to be illegals in the USA and around 600'000 in Europe rather than the braz-zero paradise !
Right....idiot ?

And Could you please tell the world how many brazilians blacks are high magistrates, senators, governors, enterprises captains, mayors, top managers in your government controlled agencies or companies such as Petrobras, Vale and so many others, including in your non government controlled corporations ???????

And as to slaves in the Americas, if I am not wrong there were TWICE AS MANY IN BRAZIL THAN IN THE USA !

ANYWAY....life is great.... !

Keep your rice grain in your balls and shake your body with the tempo.
But dont forget once a month to get a shower with soap. Not with ethanol.
Ethanol is just to rince your mouth. Pure ethanol otherwise bacterias wont be killed.

And I am not from Bern but from Geneva !
Geneva is always ranked as one of the BEST city...ON EARTH !

What abour the ranking or Rio, SP or whatever brazilian city of your choice ?

Stand up...idiot ! Show us what you know...if you know something else than getting an unemployment check or monthly state subsidy.


Laughs....laughs....laughs....laughs..... !
continued
written by ch.c., October 07, 2010
Hopefully a few remember what I said months ago on BP !
For British Petroleum. Right ?

But....but....but I also said for BP.....Brazil Petrobras ! Right ?

Wellllll here it is....NOW :
- The stock is down 32 percent this year, more than the 27 percent plunge for BP Plc, the driller that set aside $32.2 billion to pay for the worst oil spill in U.S. history.
- “The supposedly strong level of demand for the world- record offer was in part an illusion,”
- Petrobras may be forced to sell equity again as soon as 2013 should crude prices slump, further diluting earnings, according to Barclays and Mirae.
- Mark Mobius, who oversees about $34 billion as executive chairman of Templeton Asset Management Ltd., said Sept. 24 that the stock sale was an “abomination” that treated minority shareholders unfairly and may signal share offerings are overvalued.

DONT FORGET MY MOTTO....NEVER EVER TRUST A BRAZILIAN. PROVEN ONCE MORE.

Buy after the ethanol drinkers and suckers lost money.
Certainly a better idea to buy cheaper now than earlier.
but....but...but.... not yet....just as a small and light accumulation strategy.


Ahhhhh....ahhhhhh.....

Idiots always buy high and sell low !
And when buying idiots are always 100 % sure that right they are because smart they are.


smilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/grin.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/cheesy.gifsmilies/shocked.gifsmilies/shocked.gifsmilies/shocked.gif
...
written by Triple-Dot, October 07, 2010

And when buying idiots are always 100 % sure that right they are because smart they are.


idiots are always 1000000% and not just 100% sure, you idiot.
I wrote only one comment above. the one that said it is not me....for all the other comments using my ID !
written by Triple-Dot, October 07, 2010
All the comments look like the same repetitive nonsense you have always written. Come now old man, the truth will set you free.
ch.c
written by Bambu, October 07, 2010
I wrote only one comment above. the one that said it is not me....for all the other comments using my ID !


Liar!
ch.c
written by Leo Bonneville, October 07, 2010
I wrote only one comment above. the one that said it is not me....for all the other comments using my ID !


Fat old liar.
ch.c
written by Simpleton, October 07, 2010
I wrote only one comment above. the one that said it is not me....for all the other comments using my ID !


Yeah sure. And I suppose the Swiss weren't helping the Nazis.
ch.c
written by Nicolas (USA_Male), October 07, 2010
I wrote only one comment above. the one that said it is not me....for all the other comments using my ID !


Never trust a Swiss!
ch.c
written by asp, October 07, 2010
i mean , you do copy and paste that s**t, right ?

i mean f**k, what a task to write the same thing over and over, the very same thing about these subjects...

please tell me you have it copied and pasted...

no one could be that stiff to just repeat the same stuff over and over for what?..years now....

...
written by ..,, October 07, 2010

Some more crumpets and coffee, boys? smilies/wink.gifsmilies/cheesy.gif
ch c, you are hilarious....
written by asp, October 07, 2010
cmon ch c

please copy and paste for the umteenth billionth time about the iraq war, aghanistan, vietnam, and the amount of zeroes in the brazilian money, and, the same cliches about what you think is wrong with brazil ...

its the same phrases every time....please, for gods sake, do it one more time because i am in need of my ch c critique fix...

but , more than anything , godamnit...BUY LOW AND SELL HIGH !!!

...
written by Triple-Dot, October 07, 2010

Never trust a Swiss!


No relevant argument to back up this statement, you young fool. Why shouldn't we trust a Swiss ?

Because they are LIARS, CHEATERS, HIDERS OF THEIR TRIPLE BELLIES.smilies/wink.gif
...
written by Triple-Dot, October 07, 2010

Some more crumpets and coffee, boys?


I dunno about rest of the wimps or the snob from Barn, Swaziland, but....but...but... I sure appreciate your offer, Double.
those two posts above werent mine....
written by asp, October 07, 2010
ok, somebody has too much time on their hands...

wow, you looked all over the threads to put together my words...

brilliant....i mean you actualy get that i am a witty son of a bitch...

why dont you just write a screen play and make some money ?

f**k, you are doing me a favor, to inspire me to get the f**k out of here...all im doing now is coming in to tell people your posts arnt mine...
...
written by Triple-Dot, October 07, 2010

those two posts above werent mine...


You are guilty until proven otherwise. That is the law of Swaziland.smilies/wink.gif
asp
written by ..,, October 07, 2010


f**k, you are doing me a favor, to inspire me to get the f**k out of here...


Does someone need a little thicker skin with his tea and crumpets? smilies/wink.gifsmilies/cheesy.gif
...
written by jmill98, October 07, 2010
Finally someone told the truth about Brazil and race. I spent 7 months there and couldn't find on middle class black person.
...
written by jmill98, October 07, 2010
Finally someone tells the truth about Brazil. I spent 7 months there and never saw a middle class black person. If I were black I would much rather be born in the United States.
...
written by A Brazilian, October 07, 2010
Finally someone tells the truth about Brazil. I spent 7 months there and never saw a middle class black person. If I were black I would much rather be born in the United States.


If you are indeed an American then it is 100% certainty that none of the people you met were "white" by the American Anglo-saxon standard definition.

Every single person you saw, according to the American concept of race, was "colored" in one way or another. Either through mixture or just non-white.

Who do you think you are fooling?
...
written by Triple-Dot, October 08, 2010

If I were black I would much rather be born in the United States.


Why not in South Africa?smilies/shocked.gif
...
written by Dot-Dot-Dot, October 08, 2010

If I were black I would much rather be born in the United States.


Why not 17th century Senegal... when the kings were selling their own people into slavery?
...
written by paulo emanuel de oliveira freitas, October 10, 2010
I think the " gringos " (anyone not portuguese speaker by definition ) can´t understand DOMESTIC WORK in brazilian history and economics , you make the usual mistake that domestic work is a form of racism or a covered up slavery ...and it is not ...goes to Brazil south and you will see caucasian, blond hairs, blue eyes working in domestic services !!!I think you gringos really can´t understand Brazil singular History , the only Constitutional Monarchy in
Americas ....but keep trying !!!!!
...
written by paulo emanuel , October 10, 2010
About the comments of CH.C (???) that brazilians are medieval and archaic , yes we are , portuguese language( a mix of celtic , latin and arabian languages ) is the idiom with the less structural changes in the last 800 years , we speak like a templar knight ....
...
written by paulo emanuel, October 10, 2010
oh yes Mr. CH.C !!!we love burn people in buses in the same way other peoples love aim a crowbar at apples placed on the head of a 5 years old boy !!!!( at noon , in the city´s main square!!)
...
written by paulo emanuel, October 11, 2010
Mr. CH.C !!! I beg your pardon !!! I made a mess on two swiss national symbols !!! Where I wrote CROWBAR , please read CROSSBOW
Proper big long article coming ... soon (hopefully)
written by Brazuca, October 13, 2010
As always, exceptional stuff, A Brazilian.

You'll be happy to know that I'm working on a big article that explains the modus operandi of the Powers that Be as applied to Brazil.

I've got the outline, but the only problem is procrastination. There's some articles by Colonel Fraggapini I still have to read ... But once I get to it it'll all come out!

So, as always, keep up the good work. I look forward to making a contribution towards people's awakening, particularly Brazilians'.

As to adrienerik, he's insane. I don't know how else he can be understood.
Should read...
written by Brazuca, October 13, 2010
For example, there's some articles by Colonel Fraggapini I still have to read ...
...
written by João da Silva, October 13, 2010

There's some articles by Colonel Fraggapini I still have to read ..


Who is this Cel.Fraggapini?
The Inteligensia inside of Rio's Bars
written by adrianerik, October 13, 2010
Bra-zu-ass! You're back! Last article I read of yours you verified your information because of the views of some cariocas you overheard in some bar in Rio.

Good research, buddy!

And now...(big drum roll) you -- the African Aussie -- with a few months of Brazil under your belt are going to explain (ta-dahhhhh) the 'modus operandi' of the Big Powers.

whoooooooo.......

Oughta be fun. I wait with 'bated bref.

(you know for Bolivia and Paraguay and Uruguay, Brazil IS the big f**king power!)
f**k that, brazuca
written by asp, October 14, 2010
adrian eric is one of the few people on this board actualy trying to make differance down here in brazil

and , by the way , a brazilian , i grew up in chicago, and , seriously , cat, we never had or dealt with some kind of "one drop rule".

that is an old out of date relic from the deep south and just doesnt relate anymore

my god, any of the big cities like new york, los angeles, miami etc have so much mixture , especialy because of the fast growing hispanic populations, that your portrayal is dull and arcaic. you must be in the south in the states , or in utah.

and, ive seen so many examples right here in brazil of government, police, scholars, media, totaly refer to afro brazilians, and racial prejudice that exists in brazil, that to paint that "all brazilians are similar" in racial makeup, is just a fantacy....

the elite power holders are white in this country
My comments - Part 1.
written by Paulo, October 16, 2010
Dear Sires,

I've read the article and some comments about it, and I've had an impression that all comments are from white or foreign people (foreign to Brazil).

It's really impressive that Brazilian elite is overwhelmingly white (some elite people are Asians: Japanese), but, I'm a Brazilian black which belongs to this elite.

My parents are Top public servants, and I've always studied in elite schools, I've attended top Brazilians colleges (ITA/FGV/USP), and, in my world, almost always, only white people exists. I have NO BLACK FRIENDS apart my own family. My family is completely from Rio de Janeiro, but I live in São Paulo for more than 14 years.

I've never had problems with jobs, I've been direct victim of racism very rarely, and I've replied promptly, but, when I was studying in FGV (Fudacao Getulio Vargas), a very elite school, I've even received e-mails with racial-hate contents. But, nevertheless, racism wasn't a really important point in my life.

Since I was a child, my parents teach me and to my brothers three things:

1 - We are black
2 - We are in a white world
3 - You must understand that you are black

These things only served to show us how to maintain our self steem high. And the major problem in my Brazilian life is with a depression I've had due family problems completely apart from racism.
My comments - Part 2
written by Paulo, October 16, 2010
But, when I was studying at FGV, I've learned a thing: poor brazilians are not racists (almost always - and they are black, in the majority, after all). Very rich brazilians are racists, but, if they like you, to them, it's not important, since, with their money, they aren't looking for social upgrade and they won't need to explain their choices to anyone.

But, the remainder of Brazilians are DEEPLY RACIST, and politically-correct. They maintain an image of not racists, but they don't say they dislike you because you're black. They'll say: you bore me... The girls won't say that won't befriend with you because you're black: they will say: you're ugly. And, if they are really attracted by you, they will ask you for one night and only. I've got a lot of girls. White. Almost always with a boyfriend or any other stable relationship. I'm good to be the "other" guy. To give her vengeance against their boyfrients bad habbits. But, for a serious relationship. Never.

I've never gone outside Brasil. I've been invited to work at the USA twice and at Canada once, but I've always in personal troubles to go out from Brazil. But I've studied in a School with lots of foreigners in exchange programs. I´ve worked in an American company for three years, dealing with foreigners, american, canadians, all the time. And, dealing with them, I've realized that they are much less racists than Brazilians. Even black brazilians are racists against their own. It's terrible to see a black guy saying that he is "moreno" (tanned), or putting in High rank his "european" ancestry. I have an european ancestry too. My grandfather, father of my father, was portuguese. But my father is black, my mother is black, and I am black too. I feel black. I am black for me and for any people whom see me.
My comments - Part 3 - Final.
written by Paulo, October 16, 2010
The brazilian racism is so pernicious, that even the americans, with their legacy of Jim-Crow laws, are so racists. And a racist american is racist and show to the world that he/she is. If I know such people, I just avoid them. But in Brazil, people like me must to deal with racism on a daily basis, knowing that we are black, people see us as black and it is good. Not bad. I have my ethnic identification. It is very good. But I am not African-Brazilian. I am brazilian. Brazilian and black. It is easier for me to trace my ancestry in europe than in Africa. But it is not important to me. The important is that I AM BLACK. And Brazilians, in general, are racists hypocritical about this. I know a lot of people, from Brazil and abroad. And no people in the world is more racist than a Brazilian.

I love Brazil. Brazil is a mess, but I love this mess. But I REALLY HATE BRAZIL TOO. And the cause is that Brazilians are RACIST. Brazilians acts as racist people all the time. This has overwhelmed me before, but now, it just annoys me. It is not important for me anymore, at all.

Please, look for a book called "Raízes do Brazil" (Roots of Brazil), written by Sergio Buarque de Holanda, to take a deeper understanding about what the marvelous article written by Mr. Francis Wardle is really discussing.

And I've learned how people knows if you are rich or poor (being black or not) in Brazil at first sight: through your vocabulary, intonation and corporal language. It is strange to say: but black and poor people, in general, has an intrinsecally servant posture, bad vocabulary and a contained entonation. I have none of them. Then brazilian people know: this guy is black, but he isn't poor. Then I won't treat bad because it will create problems. Maybe he can hire me.

Regards.

P.S.: If you are a black american, or black from any other country, and want to come to Brazil, be prepared to suffer prejudice.
Meet Demetrio Magnoli...
written by Brazuca, October 18, 2010
P.S.: If you are a black american, or black from any other country, and want to come to Brazil, be prepared to suffer prejudice.


It would be terrible -- a total nightmare, I'm sure. Any such person unfortunate enough to find himself in the racist hell-hole of Brazil would embrace with tearful relief the Apartheid of South Africa and Jim Crow of the United States. Anything's better than Brazil!

Anyway, you should read Demetrio Magnoli's "Uma Gota de Sangue". An excellent book from a very astute sociologist.

Here's a good introduction to the guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7zUL9wAAKE
Paulo
written by A Brazilian, October 18, 2010
I've read the article and some comments about it, and I've had an impression that all comments are from white or foreign people (foreign to Brazil).


I am Brazilian from Brazil I can attest what you said is BS. Of course you will find racism if you are looking for it, but in Brazil it is far less than in the US.

For someone with plenty of "foreign" experience you seem pretty ignorant. I have worked abroad, with foreigners, and in multinationals too. You won't find racism in those places in the form of threats because it would hurt their career climbing.

Racism, in that case, come in a different way. They won't say you can't be somewhere because you look different, but there might be initiatives for promoting "identities" and other politically correct non-sense for making it clear about your place in the state of things.

The same One Drop Rule, Jim Crow segregation racial structure, promoted as "identities" or "diversity". Similarly to governments that try to pass segregation as some "equal rights" program. It is racism, using race in the same way it was used in the past, but they give it a different label.

But real racism is easier to find among blacks. If you actually get to know Black Americans you will soon find that race is the only thing they have.
Worse or Better - for me, the important is to people show that they are racists
written by Paulo, October 18, 2010
For someone with plenty of "foreign" experience you seem pretty ignorant.


I don't care if people are racists or not. I really don't have "plenty foreign experience". But, probably you wouldn't have "plenty" of black experience because you're probably white.

If you're suffering prejudice in foreign lands, probably it's because you're brazilian, not because you're black.

I do prefer to be threatened by racist people tha ACT AS RACISTS, SAY THEY ARE RACISTS AND EVEN DEFEND THEIR RACISM than to deal with underground racism combined with hypocrisy all the time.

You won't find racism in those places in the form of threats because it would hurt their career climbing.


In Brazil i find racism even in corporate places because people do not hide their racism. They pretend not to be racists. Between to hire a blonde girl or a black girl as a salesperson, you know, if you are Brazilian, that the white girl is always preferred, even if the black girl has better experience. I've never been subject to corporate racism in Brazil because I'm a HJIGH QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL, and people have a tendency to "forget" my ethnicity because I a clever person.

But real racism is easier to find among blacks. If you actually get to know Black Americans you will soon find that race is the only thing they have.


I DO KNOW black americans. And I know they are racists too. But against white people. If I've lived in a country with "one drop rule" or "Jim Crow" history, maybe I would be racist too.

Similarly to governments that try to pass segregation as some "equal rights" program. It is racism


I agree. I'm completely against affirmative action and titles like "African-anything", "Asian-anything", "Anything-anything".

And, to finalize, if you had prejudice in foreign lands, welcome to the club of minorities.
Racists have a problem with RACE
written by Brazuca, October 18, 2010
Between to hire a blonde girl or a black girl as a salesperson, you know, if you are Brazilian, that the white girl is always preferred, even if the black girl has better experience.


What if it was between a blonde girl and a brunette?

Being female and blonde in Brazil is generally an advantage, as it tends to be all around the world, though not as pronounced in Brazil. It is generally advantageous for a female to be pretty, buxom, sexy, etc. This is the case in Brazil as it is around the world. I'm not sure how advantageous it is in getting a professional job, blondes tend to catch men's eyes.

By the way, I saw plenty of "black" saleswomen at Sao Conrado Fashion Mall, the shopping centre of Rio's elite. At the Armadillo store in Ipanema one of the male shop assistants is "black" -- with that type of trendy spikey hair -- and Armadillo's one of those up-market stores.

I've never been subject to corporate racism in Brazil because I'm a HJIGH QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL, and people have a tendency to "forget" my ethnicity because I a clever person.


Ah, so it's class we're talking about?! After all, a racist has an issue with your "race", not with your class, ou seja, how educated you are. A racist proper will still have a problem with you regardless of your class or your education ... because he is a racist. Understand?!
...
written by João da Silva, October 18, 2010

Worse or Better - for me, the important is to people show that they are racists


Hey Paulo,

Did they teach you this in ITA? smilies/shocked.gif
Race and Class
written by Paulo, October 18, 2010
What if it was between a blonde girl and a brunette?


I don't know. But, between a brunette and a black, the brunette will be preferred almost always.

By the way, I saw plenty of "black" saleswomen at Sao Conrado Fashion Mall, the shopping centre of Rio's elite. At the Armadillo store in Ipanema one of the male shop assistants is "black" -- with that type of trendy spikey hair -- and Armadillo's one of those up-market stores.


Rio de Janeiro is a deeply divided society with a HUGE contingent of blacks. If someone avoid to hire a black in Rio (or Salvador), he/she will hire nobody, because almost all white people are upperclass. But in Sao Paulo, things are completely different. When I go to Iguatemi or Morumbi Shopping Mall, people look at me with a strange expression. But, if you are really a very beautiful person, maybe you can be hired, becase you're exotic. I, exotic, in my own coutry? AND IT'S NOT RACISM?

Ah, so it's class we're talking about?! After all, a racist has an issue with your "race", not with your class, ou seja, how educated you are. A racist proper will still have a problem with you regardless of your class or your education ... because he is a racist. Understand?!


No, I don't understand. You know that money brings opportunities and friendship very easy. Even people dislike blacks treat me well, then say miserable things about blacks behind me. I Know that because I've alredy caught "LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS" of people doing this. And saying me "look at my nephew, so handsome, he has blue eyes...". But, in front of me, they don't manifest their racism. So, I'm not a victim of racism from these people. But I'm sorry for their maids and employees. In a country deeply racist and hypocritical on this subject like Brazil, this is very common. A racist person don't need they're racist, because it is politically incorrect. And, if they do this in front of me, there is a great possibility they go to jail. EM CANA. I wouldn't be mercy.
An error from the previous post
written by Paulo, October 18, 2010
A racist person don't need they're racist, because it is politically incorrect


I have mean that: A racist person don't need to show they're racist, because it is politically incorrect.

And I won't lose my time explaining my point of view, anymore. It's just a point of view and a commentary on my own experience with racism in Brazil. For a long time I've believed that racism didn't existed. But, once I've begun to have deeper relationships with people outside my family, I realized that Brazilian racism exists, it's deep and belongs to the country ethos.

I don't want to write a treatise nor to defend an absolute truth about racism. Nor I'm a sociologist or phylosopher to deal so deeply about so complex subject.

The only thing people must know is Brazil is RACIST, the kind of RACISM in Brazil is pernicious because it is hidden, hypocritical, deeply entrenched in the society and because white people deny their RACISM all the time. They need to know that black people here suffer of low self-steem and lots of them deny their own ancestry. I've never heard about this kind of behavior in the United States. Even more after the banishment of Jim-Crow.

And I'll say again, because this site is about Brazil for FOREIGN and AMERICANS in general - Brazil is a marvelous country but:

If you are a black american, or black from any other country, and want to come to Brazil, be prepared to suffer prejudice.
...
written by asp, October 18, 2010
paulo

thank you for your testimony. i know various black brazilians who express they have experianced blatent racism in brazil.

the media is one of the most racist anywhere, and reminds me of the "julia" time in the states.

i guess brazuca was never here when the blond xuxa was queen of tv and has her all blond assistants , with a guarentee that colorism is alive and well. claudia leite , danialea mercurey and ivete sangalo are the reigning music queens in a state that is predominantly black ( at least two have some talent, but cmon, any body think there are no dynamicly talented black female singers and dancers in bahia?)

where you have every right to not think of yourself as afro brazilian, a huge amount of people are happy to be afro brazilian, to study afro brazilian culture and to discuss racism in brazil. down below are various lincs from brazil about references to cultura afro brasileiro. including government reports and laws that say there have to be courses in afro brazilian culture.

when people speak of cultures , they speak of afro cuban culture, afro american culture, afro haitian culture and afro brazilian culure , it is an extremly acceptable way to describe a culture

whether you , or any one else likes it or not, it is a reality. it is a valid culture to study and learn from.

take note , brazuca and a brazilian, these sites arnt brought to you by the ford foundation of any american interests. you may want to disagree with them , but, they exist in great numbers and are a larger voice than your opinions, they even come directly from the laws of the government.that makes your positions look like fantacy.

racism is alive in brazil and it is being confronted and discussed by brazilians about brazilians...it is hard core reality


http://www.cultura.gov.br/site/categoria/politicas/cultura-afro-brasileira/

http://www.flickr.com/groups/culturaafrobrasileira/

laws stating that afro brazilian culture has to be taught in brazil:

http://www.espacoacademico.com.br/036/36epereira.htm

http://www.brasil.gov.br/sobre/cultura/cultura-brasileira/cultura-afro-brasileira

http://www.iccab.hpg.ig.com.br/

ill try to make these sites lincable
written by asp, October 18, 2010
another
written by asp, October 18, 2010
straight from the goverment web site
written by asp, October 18, 2010
i mean what the f**k....
written by asp, October 18, 2010
just go to google and google up "cultura afro brasileiro" and just see page after page after page of brazilians, not americans, or europeans, discussing and informing each other on afro brazilian culture...

brazuca, you are getting really tired, especialy because you come from outside with little time living in brazil and start spouting bulls**t .

this weird notion that there is no racism or color break down or no afro brazilian culture , is ridiculas....

these opinions on here are very small peanut gallery notions of what brazil is all about
f**k the one drop rule...
written by asp, October 18, 2010
really motha fuggas, how many times have i had to tell you that i never heard or dealt with that one drop rule bulls**t where i grew up . it is a f**king relic from the south and it diminishes the power of your arguments, because it is cracker , deep fried southern ku klux klan bulls**t
and i really hate to break it to you all....
written by asp, October 18, 2010
but those sites i linced you to and the ones that i didnt , and the page after page after page of sits if you google up "cultura afro brasileira", is not me talking, its not dot brazzil talking,

its BRASIL talking , like it lump it , digest it , dump it
Finally a good and well grounded critique
written by Paulo, October 18, 2010
Dear asp,

finally I've got a critique that I consider good and that taught me something. I've promised no more posts, but I will deal only with this sentence:
where you have every right to not think of yourself as afro brazilian,


My problem is that when my grandparents have chosen to be protestant, and my parents ascended socially, I, and my brothers too, lost our african references. VERY UNFORTUNATELY. But I won't deny my african ancestry. NEVER.

I dislike the term Afro-brazilian or African-brazilian because it is a stereotypical label. If this categories are used in the academy or to create government programs. That's totally fine, that's OK. But, otherwise, it turns a euphemistic derogative way to call a black person - like the word "community" had turned an euphemism to "favela".

And I've never heard about brazilians calling theirselves german-brazilians, anglo-brazilians, Italo-brazilians or hispano-brazilians. They always call: I'm brazilian, but my ancestry is German/English/Italian/Spanish. Why can't I call me brazilian with African ancestry instead of African-Brazilian?

Regards to ye.
Blondes are a minority everywhere and thus always to some degree exotic
written by Brazuca, October 19, 2010
Rio de Janeiro is a deeply divided society with a HUGE contingent of blacks. If someone avoid to hire a black in Rio (or Salvador), he/she will hire nobody, because almost all white people are upperclass. But in Sao Paulo, things are completely different. When I go to Iguatemi or Morumbi Shopping Mall, people look at me with a strange expression. But, if you are really a very beautiful person, maybe you can be hired, becase you're exotic. I, exotic, in my own coutry? AND IT'S NOT RACISM?

So what you are suggesting is that "blacks" are hired in proportion to their numbers?

I disagree about what you say about Rio. "Blacks" are a minority in Rio, so Sao Conrado Fashion Mall could easily afford not to hire any "black" staff.

I, exotic, in my own coutry? AND IT'S NOT RACISM?


Would you be "exotic" in Bahia?

Blondes attract more attention here in Australia as well; many girls dye their hair blonde here, even though the majority of the population is already of northern European descent. But since blondes are relatively common here, they don't quite attract as much attention as they would in a country where they're relatively uncommon and thereby "exotic", as in Brazil or southern Europe.

And saying me "look at my nephew, so handsome, he has blue eyes...".


They say that in Sweden as well, you know. Having blonde hair and blue eyes is rare almost everywhere and is correspondingly exotic. A blonde in Manaus will be more exotic than a blonde in Blumenau.

o, I don't understand. You know that money brings opportunities and friendship very easy.


In Apartheid South Africa or Jim Crow America, it wouldn't have mattered how much money you had. You know why? Because untermenschen deserve no respect at all.

Are you beginning to understand? If money changes everything, then class is the issue. Is this getting any easier to understand?

By the way, why do you think Pele dismissed the idea of racism being a problem in Brazil, saying instead that it was something that existed in Apartheid South Africa, Jim Crow America and Nazi Germany? Is it because Pele is "white"? In an interview included in the book The Brazil Reader, by Robert Levine and John Crocitti, the dialogue (on p.255) is as follows:

Playboy: You also made a polemical statement to a foreign journalist, saying that racial discrimination does not exist in Brazil. Do you confirm saying this or was this another case of being misunderstood?

Pele: I believe that in my field, sports, there is no racial discrimination. I never had problems playing soccer with whites; I attended school with whites and was never discriminated against. I think that in Brazil the problem is social discrimination. This exists in truth, and is a big problem. Racial discrimination exists in the Unites States and in South Africa.
Newspeak of 2010 (Apologies to George Orwell)
written by adrianerik, October 19, 2010
In George Orwell's "1984" the character Syme says "It's a beautiful thing, this destruction of words!"

For in Orwell's book, the way to control society was to reduce the vocabulary in order to prevent alternative ways of thinking (thoughtcrime) and alternative ways of looking at the world. Worldview. (that's an academic term, not from Orwell.

Orwell's fears become apparent when I hear some a*****e like "A Brazilian" says "African Americans are the MOST racist because THEY KEEP TALKING ABOUT RACE!"

(hmmmm...Jews are always talking about the Holocaust...they are more fascist than the Nazis).

I begin to see the apparent of triumph of White Supremacy in Brazil through bass-ackwards statements from someone "who travels the world and is an **authentic** Brazilian raised in the educational kum-bah-yah 'beauty' of Brazil's racial democracy).

(I vomit later).

I spent some time going over the work of some of Brazuk-ass's heros (Peter Fry's no race blog, Demetri, Yvonne) and it convinces me of one thing, that SOME scholars in the line of Rudyard Kipling (White man's burden) or the Harvard 'scholar' who in the 1900's said that women's smaller brains could not do science need to be lined up with the politicians and lawyers when the purge starts.

Their so-called academic work is Orwell's Doublespeak.

White Supremacy is like AIDS, it works best when it destroys your immune system. Destroys your capacity to think. Destroys your capacity to form an idea of another world outside of the worship of 'whiteness' as being god.

Guns and whips and lynchings are the methods of second and third resort for white supremacist thinking to dominate. It needs to reduce the vocabulary like Newspeak demands, infect the mental immune system and have bitches say that African Americans - whipped and lynched and eaten by dogs and shot and dumped into rivers and raped - are the 'biggest racists".

(I vomit later).

But in truth, it's not only the mentally damaged immune systems of 'brown people' in Brazil (still sucking at the tits of white supremacy in their daily lives, hating each other's degrees of "not-whiteness" more than they hate the racist puppetmasters who dominate Brazil's society for their own interests.)

By the standards of Double-speak, President Obama is a racist. (he allows his children to wear black style braids).

In Brazil, black faces that can't be f**ked need to be shot. There is no policeman's bullets that meets a black body that isn't justified. In race saturated America, IN THE GHETTO, in 30 years, I have never had a friend killed by the police. In Brazil, in just 7 years, I have had 10! I know all of them. They were all murdered! They were all innocent of anything but being black!(somehow the police didn't realize that they were 'fellow Brazilians').

Now, to my knowledge Brazu-ass has never been to America, and, by his posts, spent several months trolling the bars between Copa and Flamengo in Rio.

But I understand, sometimes fleas must place a megaphone to their lips to cry "I am here" because, lacking any other movement in their life, they are merely...forgotten.
i hear you , paulo
written by asp, October 19, 2010
as i said, i definitly support your desire to not want to be classified as "afro brasileiro", and, individual black brazilians dont use that term on a regular basis to describe themselves , but, as you see, the cultural aspect and the term itself , "cultura afro brasileiro" is well documented and supported by laws and the government and the educational system and artists.and, i have seen many black brazilians describe them selves as afro brasileiros, and , certainly you wouldnt deny their right to do that if they want to, right?

in the south there are huge festivals that celibrate the german roots of people there and italians in the south celibrate their roots as well as acorians. and i have heard many of them describe themselves as "german", "italian", " acorian".italian, german and acorian cultures are hugly noted and celibrated on the media in the south, and, as a matter of fact, you see more tango demonstrations on the news down there than actual afro brazilian culture.

gees, brazuca, if there was ever anybody in all brazil that was , since a pretty early age, raised in a zone of being a full blown celebrity, its pele. star black brazilian athaletes reach a state of acceptance , and live a lifestyle way above the average black brazilian.pele is a genius of the sport he played and the best of all time, but, as far as a historian and social commentarist, i dont give him much credit...

there is no question that racism usa style and aparthied , south african style, is much more brutal and visable.

brazil is differant, yet, the usa has a huge amount of black people in the media, shows about their lives, awareness of their culture , diolougue about racism.the exclusion of a notable black brazilian presence on the media, in the colleges , in the government, and in any elite social events, is extremly notable, and, considering the color of the population in general, extremly strange...

no one is saying brazil doesnt have a huge mixed population that makes it unique to its own self and has its own unique problems with racism.and no one is saying they should copy the usa or do what any american comes down and sais they should do.

but get this and get it good, there is no country that brought slaves from africa to the americas that isnt wallowing in social problems exactly because of the atlantic slave trade. its just a fact. anyone who doesnt want to see that, is really blind to things that are extremly relevent to everyday social problems in these countries.

and brazil is no exception
African Americans & Racism
written by adrianerik, October 19, 2010
Yes! There are some bona-fide African American racists. Somewhere.

Now, reality.

Don't worry about most African Americans who travel suffering racism.

Quite the opposite! We don't suffer racism. Racism suffers us. The problem with most African Americans who travel is our arrogance. There exists few white people on this earth who the African American who travels thinks is better than us.

Probably none!

Neither are they worse.

They are just simply....human beings. Free to be great, or to be an a*****e...as their talents or lack thereof merits.

In Salvador, a student was amazed when a light-skinned African American who, when called 'white', said proudly "uh uhhh, baby. African American!"

The student, a black student smiled. She said that, in Brazil, if you are able to be called white, people gladly accept it. She was not used to it being the other way.

hmmmm

brazil-people.dot.com speaking.
Foolishness
written by Paulo, October 19, 2010
Dear Brazuca. Did you said:

I disagree about what you say about Rio. "Blacks" are a minority in Rio, so Sao Conrado Fashion Mall could easily afford not to hire any "black" staff.


You know nothing about Rio. My ENTIRE family is from Rio. Take a time, go out from Ipanema or São Conrado and visit Bangu, Campo Grande, Nova Iguaçu, Penha, a Maré, or any favela and you will understand me. If you have fear to go to these places, it's better. These places don't need people like you.

So what you are suggesting is that "blacks" are hired in proportion to their numbers?


No. It's the quite opposite. If "blacks" would be hired in proportion to their numbers, then 50-60% of São Conrado Mall employees would be black.

They say that in Sweden as well, you know. Having blonde hair and blue eyes is rare almost everywhere and is correspondingly exotic. A blonde in Manaus will be more exotic than a blonde in Blumenau.


I'm not saying to be exotic in Blumenau or Manaus. I'm saying about be exotic in Rio de Janeiro or São Paulo, where in almost any place you can find a black. I've already called exotic in an Upperclass night club in São Paulo. I've felt deeply offended. And I'm not saying about to have blue eyes as a terrible thing. I don't think this. I was saying about hidden-racist people uses their traits trying to show they're superior to me.

And with your kind of arguments, I realize a thing. YOU'RE RACIST. You have all features of a hypocritical brazilian racist: you deny that racism exists in Brazil all the time. This is the kind of experience I need to deal here in a daily basis. Foreigners can feel a little what I need to deal with racism in Brazil with the posts you send replying me. I don't need to explain my points of view to you. You have your point of view and I have mine. Period.

And, dear Adrianerik. I'm glad that you, Black Americans, don't suffer racism. This occurs because you have high self steem and positive ethnic identification. This, definitively, doesn't occur in Brazil.
You can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps
written by Brazuca, October 19, 2010
In Brazil, black faces that can't be f**ked need to be shot. There is no policeman's bullets that meets a black body that isn't justified. In race saturated America, IN THE GHETTO, in 30 years, I have never had a friend killed by the police. In Brazil, in just 7 years, I have had 10! I know all of them. They were all murdered! They were all innocent of anything but being black!(somehow the police didn't realize that they were 'fellow Brazilians').


For goodness's sake, you live in Bahia, don't you? I remember when they showed that footage on the news of the Bahian police making a big drug raid and later on displaying on the drugs they'd found. I think all of those arrested were "black", and I saw here the Lunatic chucking a massive tantrum that the "racist" police were arresting and killing his friends and it was only because of the color of their skin. I calmly pointed out to him here that all the police were "black" themselves (this was in Bahia, you see), or at least a mixture of "blacks" and pardos (though there's of course no difference for the adrienerik types, since "one drop" is the defining characteristic of a person's self-consciousness), but I doubt my pointing out this will do any good.

No. It's the quite opposite. If "blacks" would be hired in proportion to their numbers, then 50-60% of São Conrado Mall employees would be black.


Are you suggesting that 50-60% of Rio's population is "black"? I passed Rocinha almost every day. I saw very few "blacks" waiting for buses or getting on buses (I never went up Rocinha itself). I weekly drove through the big favela Rio das Pedras, near to Cidade de Deus, on the way to Freguesia. On the way back the bus would take a more circuitous route that drove slowly deep inside the favela. I saw almost no "blacks" in this big favela.

The only part of Zona Norte that I visited with any frequencies was Zona Norte, and about once a week for a while going by bus through Zona Norte to get to that place north of Freguesia that has a crocodile's name as part of its name instead of going through Barra da Tijuca and Av. Ayrton Senna. I saw only a slightly higher number of "blacks" in these parts than in Zona Sul. The only time I saw as many as five or six "blacks" all together (apart from the American sex tourists) was up in the Cantangalo favela. While you can always see one or two here or there, this was the only occasion I saw a significant all-"black" group together in the one place.
Correction
written by Brazuca, October 19, 2010
The only part of Zona Norte that I visited with any frequencies was Zona Norte


Sorry...should read "The only part of Zona Norte that I visited with any frequencies was Tijuca"
Don't Duck and Dodge this Time
written by adrianerik, October 19, 2010
I calmly pointed out to him here that all the police were "black" themselves (this was in Bahia, you see)


And as I pointed out to you, in South Africa, 70% of the police and military force who were killing black South Africans were black.

THEREFORE...it was NOT because of the racist apartheid system that they were being killed...by YOUR logic.

Once again, your 'research' of Brazil comes from Balanca Geral, Na Mira and other TELEVISION shows.

Do you know of the raid that killed 17? No drugs. Or the raid in Pero Vaz where they killed 9. Seven musicians and 2 teensage girls who they carried off, shot and left by the road.

Or the one where the PM killed a Civil Policeman (he didn't know that) and still tried to plant drugs...which is common. He got caught in that one because. Couldn't lie his way past the other civil policemen who were witnesses.

Or the one where the youth from Cirque de Soleil was visiting for two weeks was killed. They tried to say he was a traficante but he wasn't home for more than three days. (that was one of mine).

Or the 14 year old killed leaving a soccer game. He was carried around the corner in plain sight of all of us and shot. PM as usual.

Or the three youths murdered on the bus coming from the beach. PM as usual.

You wrote a post about the 40 youths who were at a birthday party. They found thirty five phones and three joints. That's the one you were referring to as a major drug post. Thirty five phones among 40 kids. Remember, they spread out the cheap ass phones on the table like those were the tools of traficantes to conduct business.

Thirty five phones among 40 kids. Those were some poor ass kids. That was my neighborhod. They were good kids. But it was you who saw black skin. And the TV audience saw black skin. And you assumed.

NONE were charged. They found nothing. They can arrest any ten white kids at the federal university and find more than 3 marijuana joints

This is your research(?) method...huh?

You don't know jack s**t about this reality ('cept for TV).

But I'm still waiting for this great secret of how the "Big Powers are manipulating" things.

You might get some people to sip your kool aid.

...
written by Paulo, October 19, 2010
Brazuca,

Take these statistics:

Source: ^ a b c Edward Eric Telles (2004). "Racial Classification". Race in Another America: the significance of skin color in Brazil. Princeton University Press. pp. 81–84. ISBN 0691118663, taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...e-Telles-9

And
The only part of Zona Norte that I visited with any frequencies was Tijuca


Don't go to Tijuca. Tijuca is a relatively high-middle class area. Go to Padre Miguel. Go to Santa Cruz. Visit the Barra de Guaratiba beach. Don't watch people waiting for a bus in front of Rocinha. Go into Rocinha. I have a friend from Gavea who is millionaire and when his car got problems, he had taken bus in front of rocinha.

about once a week for a while going by bus through Zona Norte to get to that place north of Freguesia that has a crocodile's name as part of its name instead of going through Barra da Tijuca and Av. Ayrton Senna. I saw only a slightly higher number of "blacks" in these parts than in Zona Sul. The only time I saw as many as five or six "blacks" all together (apart from the American sex tourists) was up in the Cantangalo favela. While you can always see one or two here or there, this was the only occasion I saw a significant all-"black" group together in the one place


Which kind of glasses do you use? Which is your definition of being black? As I know, the brazilian self-reported blacks and pardos would be considered black in any place in the world. By the IBGE research you can find here: http://www.ibge.gov.br/english...d_pagina=1, you can take notice about what I'm saying.

All the time, I've shown opinions. Now, I'm showing data. Go to discuss with brazilians experts from Princeton, with IBGE or go ahead and change the Wikipedia contents, if you disagree with them. For me, that's enough. And you win: Brazil has no racism, but it has no blacks too.
asp
written by João da Silva, October 19, 2010

i hear you , paulo


Well, I don't. Probably because I am half deaf.smilies/cheesy.gif But...but...but..., if Paulinho really went to ITA, it wasn't based on "racial quota system", but on his own merits. I have known dozens of ITA graduates of various "colors" who made great team mates while working on engineering projects. IMHO, he is not being discriminated because of his color, but...but...but....for his "brainpower" that poses a direct threat to our "plantation overseers" and their lackeys.smilies/wink.gif

It is my opinion as a simple minded peasant and may be I am wrong.smilies/cheesy.gif
A "white" Brazilian obviously protecting his priveleges!
written by Brazuca, October 19, 2010
Ah, Jose, then you must be "white" to say something like that. LOL
More data
written by Paulo, October 19, 2010
Endorsing some of my point of view:

http://socialsciences.scielo.o...7000100008

and (this link is in portuguese)

http://www.seade.gov.br/produt...Y5ONDfcqBQ

The link above shows that Rio de Janeiro State has 45% of his population BLACK. Rio de Janeiro state has a big highlands area (know as "Região Serrana", where is located Petrópolis and Teresópolis), which people are white in their majority. Rio de Janeiro Vale do Paraiba, also has a population almost all white, in a pattern very similar to São Paulo. Região dos Lagos (where it is located Búzios, Cabo Frio, São Pedro d'Aldeia) have a big pardo population, but the majority of people are white, too. These, apart the Rio de Janeiro metropolitan area, are the most populated areas in the state (and the coastal cities of Campos dos Goytacazes and Macaé, that I've never visited). If the state of Rio has 45% of its population black, and they aren't in the countryside, nor in Rio de Janeiro South Zone - where they are? In the limbo?

No, they're in the Rio de Janeiro outskirts, in the Baixada Fluminense, in West Zone (apart Barra da Tijuca and Recreio dos Bandeirantes), in the Favelas from North Zone.

Maybe they're not 50%-60% or Rio population. I commited an error. I'm black and I have my own biases. But that the amount of blacks in Rio population is huge and underrated in the work market; yes, that is. And I believe strongly in this assertion.

Now, let's go discuss with data. From SEADE (http://www.seade.gov.br/). Go ahead. Take a phone, call them liars.
The link from SEADE is broken. Take the Google cached version
written by Paulo, October 19, 2010
For (TRULY) foreign visitors
written by Paulo, October 19, 2010
If you want to know the other side of Rio de Janeiro, go to Ipanema or Copacabana, and look for a bus called "Bangu". Enter this bus (I recommend a carioca friend or a tourist guide to go with you), take a seat near the "cobrador" (I don't know how to say this in english - the guy that charge the pass), and go until the final point of the bus line. Just look outside. You will take a trip through some wealthier areas in Rio (Barra da Tijuca, São Conrado, Joatinga), then go to Jacarepagua, a middle class area in the west zone. Before reaching Jacarepagua, you'll pass through Cidade de Deus (from the movie City of God), and you will reach, I don't remember exactly, but I think, Madureira, Realengo and then, Bangu.

These west zone neighbourhoods are another world, in comparison to South Zone. You can stay at the final stop point, exchange the bus and take the trip back. The transit can be terrible. The bus can be crowded in weekdays. But this trip will give you something to think about.

If you want to take a walk around, Bangu is relatively safe. But, be discreet (it is very rare a foreigner in these places), have a portuguese speaker companion (this is mandatory) and stay far from the favelas on these outskirst neighbourhoods. These favelas are very, very dangerous, even more for foreigners, even for Rio standards.

I don't remember exactly, but you can come back to south zone by a Bus called Copacabana and another called Jardim de Alah - the garden that divides Leblon from Ipanema. A marvelous place and a local worth to visit. If these bus lines doesn't exist anymore, try Rodoviaria (and you'll take a trip through Avenida Brazil - the most horrible expressway I'fe saw in my life. São Paulo Marginais are the heaven, in comparison. But, while the Av. Brasil trip, you can take a look to the astonishing building of Fiocruz, already near the Rodoviaria). In Rodoviaria, take a bus to Flamengo or Barra da Tijuca. Or just take a taxi cab at Bangu Shopping.

Regards.
For (TRULY) foreign visitors
written by Paulo, October 19, 2010
If you want to know the other side of Rio de Janeiro, go to Ipanema or Copacabana, and look for a bus called "Bangu". Enter this bus (I recommend a carioca friend or a tourist guide to go with you), take a seat near the "cobrador" (I don't know how to say this in english - the guy that charge the pass), and go until the final point of the bus line. Just look outside. You will take a trip through some wealthier areas in Rio (Barra da Tijuca, São Conrado, Joatinga), then go to Jacarepagua, a middle class area in the west zone. Before reaching Jacarepagua, you'll pass through Cidade de Deus (from the movie City of God), and you will reach, I don't remember exactly, but I think, Madureira, Realengo and then, Bangu.

These west zone neighbourhoods are another world, in comparison to South Zone. You can stay at the final stop point, exchange the bus and take the trip back. The transit can be terrible. The bus can be crowded in weekdays. But this trip will give you something to think about.

If you want to take a walk around, Bangu is relatively safe. But, be discreet (it is very rare a foreigner in these places), have a portuguese speaker companion (this is mandatory) and stay far from the favelas on these outskirst neighbourhoods. These favelas are very, very dangerous, even more for foreigners, even for Rio standards.

I don't remember exactly, but you can come back to south zone by a Bus called Copacabana and another called Jardim de Alah - the garden that divides Leblon from Ipanema. A marvelous place and a local worth to visit. If these bus lines doesn't exist anymore, try Rodoviaria (and you'll take a trip through Avenida Brazil - the most horrible expressway I'fe saw in my life. São Paulo Marginais are the heaven, in comparison. But, while the Av. Brasil trip, you can take a look to the astonishing building of Fiocruz, already near the Rodoviaria). In Rodoviaria, take a bus to Flamengo or Barra da Tijuca. Or just take a taxi cab at Bangu Shopping.

Regards.
ITA?
written by adrianerik, October 19, 2010
I don't understand. Where did Paulo state that ITA was a problem for him?

I went to two 'elite' schools. (so-called). Mostly white (there were five of us). No real problems to speak of. But what did those schools have to do with the larger society?

I did well, still have some friends from that time. (actually will have dinner with one of them on Saturday). Two of them are married to black women.

What does that have to do with any analysis of a racist society? The fact that there is no homogeneous racist society. That is very true. Brazil's lower income whites are much less infected by racism than the lower income whites in America. However, racism infects the perpetrators and the victims (actually more so the victims). And, in my opinion, racism affects Brazil's lower income blacks much more than America's lower income whites. (this was actually a study done by one of Brazil's federal universities).

During the worst periods of apartheid you had South Africans who, by their merits, were accepted to the (mostly) English schools. In the midst of the lynchings in Americas in the 1900s, 1910s, 1920s, you had W.E.B. DuBois who went to the elite ivy league University of Pennsylvania (and who is credited with creating the field of 'field studies sociology'.) You had Paul Robeson, who went to Rutgers and was a Rhodes scholar, you had Mary Church Terrell, who went to Harvard. All of these schools were predominately white and these folks were admitted on their merits.

Yet what did that have to do with the viciously racist American society of the time?

Or the viciously racist South African society that still educated people like Stephen Biko and Bishop Desmond Tutu.

Racism is a social creation and a society is not socially homogeneous. Racism is not like air that exists everywhere.

The boundaries of what one racist society wishes to protect differs from the boundaries in another society.

Our racist southern whites drank and went fishing with, and sat on porches having intense conversations with poor southern blacks. Yet the racist British did not allow themselves to be touched by Indians nor Blacks.

Which was better? Who cares!

Racism determines it own boundaries to protect. In one, water fountains; in another, their exclusive clubs; in another, their white women; in another, their political control (such as in America0; in another their economic control, such as in Brazil; in some, their control of exports (such as the colonialists); in others, their control of domestic consumption; in others, the whiteness of their religion. In others, the whiteness of their historical heroes and manifest destiny.

Or mixes and matches of the above. Only being similar in the hierarchy of white being the top, and black being the bottom in their chosen area of oppression. The middle hues (which thoroughly confuses Brazu-boy) is optional as along as it does not challenge the top. What it does to those under them? Who cares.

When I read Ali Kamel's book Nao Somos Racistas and others, they were spectacular in their inability to define racism. That's understandable. It means getting behind the superficiality of "we don't lynch ours like they do" and addressing, challenging, and eliminating the historical and religious lies that continue to pour racist thought into a society. Dressing in white and placing flowers in the sea to honor a blue-eyed, blonde-haired Yemanja on New Year's Eve is one thing. Purging a society of the taught 'manifest destiny' of white european privilege (whether it hides in the terms of "Covenant keepers" or "judeo-christian heritage) is another thing entirely.
correction
written by adrianerik, October 19, 2010
"...racism...affects brazil's lower income blacks much more than America's lower income BLACKS..."
ITA problems
written by Paulo, October 20, 2010
I've never had problems at ITA. And the "black" alumni rate at ITA is bigger than in USP and FGV, the other Colleges I've attended. ITA is one of few brazilian colleges that give full shelter and food to its alumni (the food is terribly bad seasoned, but it's good food anyway), and I think this make all the difference. Nor in FGV I've had problems. Only the nefastous hate letters, that I've promptly shown to the College Directory and presented in the Consolação Police District. After that, never I've had any problems with race. Quite the opposite.

In FGV, people were amazed with a truly black person in such elite school. But, when I was in FGV, there were only THREE black alumni in all College, including the undergraduate and strictu sensu graduate courses. This is a universe of more than a thousand people.

But at USP, things are different. USP is a HUGE UNIVERSITY that really reflects the nature of Brazilian elite. My brother is studying at USP right now. Even segregated black groups can be seen at his College (he study at FFLCH, the School of Philosophy and Human Sciences), and he take classes at ECA (Communication and Arts School), too. The african regular students (I've known two - one from Costa do Marfim and another from Guiné), suffer two kinds of prejudice: racial prejudice and xenophobia.

Once, when I was at ITA, a guy called me a "false black", due my europeanized look under a dark skin. I can't understand what's a false black. But my face type turn me attractive to a lot of white girls and acceptable to a lot of white people. As such I'm "lite black". But my father is black, my mother is black and my traces are only a result from miscigenation, a hugely common feature of Brazilian society. As I said before, my grandfather were portuguese. But this didn't make me less black. I identify myself as a black person.
Out, damn'd IR655! out, I say!
written by Brazuca, October 20, 2010
And you win: Brazil has no racism, but it has no blacks too.


No, no, you misunderstand me! Brazil has "blacks" -- for sure. They make up as much as 6% of the population, in fact! If you don't believe me, check with IBGE.

Which was better? Who cares!


So if neither is better and what we see are merely different sides of the same coin, then why are you in Brazil sharing America's alleged best practices in order to change Brazil for the ... "better" which is impossible since no place is better than any other -- it's a pointless exercise, who cares?

Racism determines it own boundaries to protect. In one, water fountains; in another, their exclusive clubs; in another, their white women; in another, their political control (such as in America0; in another their economic control, such as in Brazil; in some, their control of exports (such as the colonialists); in others, their control of domestic consumption; in others, the whiteness of their religion. In others, the whiteness of their historical heroes and manifest destiny.


... in others, their militant "black" identity. (Happily helped along by the tax exempt foundations, so that the fragmented masses will to busy fighting amongst themselves to notice how brazenly the banksters are fleecing them.)

Adrienerik, you're being used. And, yes, even uber-Engineers who attended elite schools, who shoot down Iranian civilian airlines for target practice, can be manipulated and duped by the powers that be.

You're being played, bruva.

Hey, by the way, you never confirmed whether that was you I saw outside Sao Conrado Fashion Mall waiting for a bus heading back toward Zona Sul. They guy I was looking at was obviously African-American, as African-Americans stick out like a sore thumb in Brazil, since they tend to be quite big and bulky. You (?) had a white goatee and were with a mulata woman (Mrs Thaddeus Blanchette?)
did you get that, joao?
written by asp, October 20, 2010
paulo gave some very thorogh analasys of the state of rio de janeiro, backed up with some lincs

adrian erik gave testimony to his personal ita experiance (which by the way is not why i said "i hear you.." to paulo )

what we are getting here is informed opinion, backed up by lincs to official government studies, educational institutes and statistical reseach, defining definite patterns and trends of racism in brazil (lincs i brought in) and the way in which brazilian organisations are aware of it and are fighting it.

this, versus opinions by non afro brazilian commenters , with little statistacal back up, very few lincs of any value, full of fantacy notions of no racial discrimination , and no racial distinctions , in brazil .

it is blatenly obvious that adrian erik has far more first hand contact and interaction with black comunities in rio and bahia than brazuca does , whos anecdotal statements of his experiance with black brazil , sound naive , with absolutly stupid referances to this "one drop rule from the usa" which is complete bulls**t as a definition in general of race in the usa today.it is a relic from the redneck south , yet it keeps getting dragged in here as though it is set in stone fact....cut the goddamn bulls**t

paulo is a black brazilian , in brazil, with first hand experiance with racism, black rio , with relatives in those areas, and first hand knowledge how to get around to actualy see black rio...

ive brought in various lincs , from government sites, educational sites , etc , from brazil, for brazilians, about racism in brazil and referances to afro brazilian culture.

a brazilian doesnt even live in brazil now, and gives very little information on his personal background and no lincs to official facts on his position. only rants against blacks and the ford foundation

so , lets cut the bulls**t...
Understanding some statistics I've sent you
written by Paulo, October 20, 2010
In this IBGE page: http://www.ibge.gov.br/english...d_pagina=1, we can see this table, regarding the brazilian population racial distribution:



Please, take a look to the section IBGE’s racial categories and Controversy sections from this page from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...ategories

The categories Brown and Pardo represents the same thing. But the overwhelming majority of Browns have a high level of African Ancestry, as I've already shown in one of my posts. The Wikipedia article is full of references on these data. I am believing these references are correct. I won't look for each reference, then I would need to buy a lot of books and reports they make citation.

In according to UNO/USA classification, (IBGE also uses these classifications sometimes, as can be seen in the SEADE study I've presented to you), Brown and Pardo brazilians are all blacks. Even IBGE recognize it.

But some light skinned blacks pretending to be white. Women do this all the time, painting their hair in light colors, as Blonde or a somewhat brown/red color called Acaju.

This is a kind of passing. If you don't know what is passing, these two articles from wikipedia explain very well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(racial_identity)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(sociology)

Some brazilian blacks see this behavior with very bad eyes. They have even the derogatory term criloura, a portmanteou of crioulo (which is a derogative form to call black people in Brazil) with Loura (blonde).

Returning to SEADE study, this explain why in the IBGE study I've shown you, the number of blacks appear so low. Because that are the people that self report them as blacks. People that self report them browns or pardos are recognizing, almost always, their African Ancestry, which put them in the black (or African-Brazilian) category in international studies.

I have a cousing, a girl, which mother (my aunt) is black, and father was white (a very pleasant person, but, unfortunately, he is deceased). The girl has born very light skinned, with brouwn hair and green eyes. His brother is dark skinned, but the hair wasn't black, but brown. A very different complexion. They told me that when IBGE researcher ask them which was their race classification, they called: black. My cousing, which in any place in the world could be pass as white, preferred to give more value to her black roots. In another case, when I was in the "Ensino Medio", the Brazilian High School, I've known a guy, with a very reddish brown skin, with strongly european features and light blue eyes. He is (I think he is alive yet, but I have no relationship with him anymore) from the Maranhão State, a place with high level of miscigenation. He have said me he thinks he is black, but people couldn't understand this. But these are very, very rare in Brazil. I know only these two cases of positive African self-identification in Brazil from really mixed-race people. I've seen, from the last IBGE studies, that the trend of constant lowering of black self indetification in Brazil is reverting. Maybe some pardo people have realized that they are, indeed, black.

Unfortunately, the pardo classification is also very mistakenly, because some people with Indigenous (native-brazilian ancestry) and European ancestry call themselves pardo, and they have no African ancestry at all. But this is a very small minority, giving no harm to IBGE research, in my point of view.

I hope this explain some apparent data incoherences in the references I've shown to you.

Bye.
ok, brazuca
written by asp, October 20, 2010
a lot of information, so, ill just start with a skim over the first one...

let me say first, nothing we have talked about on here is addressing the question of cotas in brazil...that is another subject

for me, most of that first site, just affirms what i have been saying , that there are racial breakdowns and that brazil, independent of any other countries influence, is involved in discussing race issues and racism in brazil

just discussing cotas implies there are racial breakdowns. most of the sides agree there is discrimination and racism in brazil

djavon says there is racism in brazil

you mostly have been saying that most of the people would fall into a catagorie that would be black by the one drop rule from the ku klux klan...that there is no racism

most of that site admitted that there was discrimination and racism in brazil

ill keep reading the other sites
Oops! Djavan said that?
written by Brazuca, October 20, 2010
djavon says there is racism in brazil.


Oh! I hadn't realized Djavan had said that.

Well, I guess that settles it, then, folks. Sorry about all that.I had no idea Djavan had spoken.

My sincere apologies.
asp
written by João da Silva, October 21, 2010

did you get that, joao?


Not 1000000%, ASP. I am a bit dumb witted.

As far as I can perceive, both Paulinho and Adrianerik went to the best schools in the Americas and have become success stories in life, in spite of their being "persons" of African origin. So far so good.But..but...Paulinho seems to be upset that he has no black friends, his parents drilled into his head that he is black, etc; etc; I don't understand why he is upset.smilies/cheesy.gif

On the contrary, young Bazooka is whipping up frenzy among the bloggers portraying himself as the champion for the cause of Brasilian "blacks". I can understand his anger, sorrow, etc;;etc;; as he is an "Afro Aussie" and the life "down under" among highly educated and scholarly white people like our friend Jake McRann is not too easy. One thing that is not clear to me is why he is not complaining about the treatment he receives in his "second home", but about racial discrimination in Brasil.smilies/wink.gif

Your turn to serve crumpets and tea. Remember I am not too fond of Peanut butter.smilies/wink.gif
...
written by Brazuca, October 21, 2010
I'm not the one complaining, Jaoa. What I am complaining about is bringing American racialization, and the division that comes from this, to Brazil. How will Brazil gain from this? It is a strategy by outside interests to hobble the emergence of this potential power.

Aussies aren't highly educated or scholarly. In the technical, functional vocational case, then I suppose so they are, but in the more "Rennaissance man" sense, not really. I'm much better educated than the average Aussie in that respect, even though I didn't go to an "elite" school. My two sisters went to what I suppose is an elite high school (Melbourne Girls' College) and, while functionally competent, they're quite empty headed and generally clueless in the liberal-education sense, and this is the case of most people here who've gone to elite schools that I come across here.
Paulo
written by A Brazilian, October 21, 2010
This is a kind of passing. If you don't know what is passing, these two articles from wikipedia explain very well:


The word "passing" was coined by racists to designate those mixed individuals that would refuse to accept their label. It is just another racist tool for One Drop Rule.

Who defines such labels? They are totally arbitrary and invalid from a scientific point of view. If someone will invent a designation then why don't you invent your own?

Racist ideologies, such as Black American one, must be put in context. And the context is MIND CONTROL OF THE MASSES.

That's all there's to it. The State or some "community" (usually sponsored by organizations such as Ford Foundation) will establish a set of rules and values, arbitrarily, and try to impose them on you.

Some individuals feel the need "to belong" to something greater in order to feel confidence in themselves. Those will fall first.

The ones that refuse the mind programming will be persecuted by those first. That's adrianerik, for example, hates mixed Brazilians. In his One Drop Rule mindset they are the enemy.

The mixed people threaten the mind control programming because they demonstrate in practice that the controllers, i.e., the many organizations and states, aren't needed. Their success might give others the incentive to follow their own path and think for themselves.

WAKE UP.

Here is a cool video (it is actually a complete documentary divided in many parts). Take a look, especially on how marketeers manufacture "identities" in order to control people and sell more garbage. The African-American "community" work in a similar way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7MUGZ6JuRI
Paulo 2
written by A Brazilian, October 21, 2010
And by the way, there's nothing wrong about mixed people to refuse to call themselves "black". Simple because they aren't black.

Insisting that someone should call themselves black is RACISM.

And, BTW, Asp, blacks in American TV are light mixed people who decided to call themselves black because of the One Drop Rule you said it was extinct some comments ago.

The One Drop Rule is alive and well in the USA. Just look at the American TV and tell me if those "blacks" are really black. Some are, but others like this one are almost white:

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/anchors...zanne.html

This is Asp's ODR stupid nonsense of blacks on TV.

That's not a black person.
Passing
written by Paulo, October 21, 2010
"A Brazilian",

I didn't invented this term. If mixed race people refuse to call them black, that's OK too, but they won't reclaim any kind of benefits from government programs or affirmative actions. And the majority of these "non black" people accept promptly to be called black to receive any kind of advantage. It's due this I'm completely against affirmative action: because it is injust.

Now, if passing has no scientific background, nor the term race has. Biologically there is only one human race. A black person is to a white person as a black labrador is to a yellow one. As ASP said, Racism is a social construction with its own methods of self-defense.

Obviously racism in Brazil is completely different from racism in the USA. If you consider brown people not being black, it is your problem, because your definition goes against definition from IBGE, SEADE, ONU and all USA academic world. These definitions exist because they define a really true boundary among people that don't suffer prejudice due their ancestry and people that do suffer prejudice and exclusion due their ancestry. I know how very well how to defend me against racism, but the majority of black people (including brown people) don't. And they need to defend theirselves from people like you.

And as I said to Brazuca: I have my opinion. You have your opinion. Period. It is in the fields of ideas. If you want to go to the field of facts, go to discuss with IBGE, Princeton, Harvard and SEADE. Discuss with UTexas, too, which has a HUGE center of Brazilian studies. I won't discuss ideas. I discuss data. I discuss facts. And my data and facts come from these institutions. Then, discuss with'em.
An explanation more
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
I've said:
These definitions exist because they define a really true boundary among people that don't suffer prejudice due their ancestry and people that do suffer prejudice and exclusion due their ancestry.

The definitions (very, very, very shallow explained) are:

1 - Black (Or African-something): A person having majoritarily African ancestry. Do this they probably suffer prejudice in white dominated countries.
2 - Non-Black: Everybody else.

This definition has no relation to skin color. Brazilians have a tendency to think that to be black is to have dark skin color. No: to be black is to have African Ancestry and self identification with a major community that call themselves black. Otherwise, my light-skinned cousin wouldn't call herself black. She is black because his mother is black, his brother is black, he is totally integrated in a black community in Rio de Janeiro outskirts, she behaves like these people and she has positive self-identification with her African ancestry.

As I know, Brown people, in their majority, also suffer prejudice. If they refuse to accept their African ancestry, their problem. And as I know, I didn't created these terms. Go to google, look for UTexas at this link: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/ins...erview.php; or IBGE(http://www.ibge.gov.br - on the census section) and look for official academic information, not personal impressions. Due my impressions, I've thought that the majority of Rio's people was black. I was wrong. But that there is a huge concentration of Blacks in Rio's outskirts and in Baixada Fluminense, yes, there is.

And, as I've saw at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(sociology); passing really is a scientific term. It belongs to Sociology. And Sociology, as I know, is, indeed, a Science.
Brazil is its own country, no?
written by Brazuca, October 22, 2010
What has the American "definition" to do with Brazil? In America the word "motel" carries a very different meaning to the same word as used in Brazil. Does that mean that you, Paulo, will from now on start campaigning for the adoption of the American understanding of that word in Brazil?
?????????
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
Black (Or African-something): A person having majoritarily African ancestry. Do this they probably suffer prejudice in white dominated countries.



to be black is to have African Ancestry and self identification with a major community that call themselves black


What these definitions have to do with any American definition?

I already know you never will agree with me, but, I think worth to ask:

What is your definition of black?
Is Vanessa da Mata black or white?
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
Take a look at Vanessa da Mata, a marvelous brazilian singer:







Is she black or white?
Take another look at Vanessa da Mata
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
Another marvelous image from this very talented singer:

Now take a comparison with Marisa Monte
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
Marisa monte is another astonishing singer from Brazil:







What is her ethnicity? She is black or white?
Antonio Banderas
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
Now take a look on Antonio Banderas:







He has almost the same skin complexion than Vanessa da Mata. Is he black or White (just a hint, he is spanish)
Divide and rule...
written by Brazuca, October 22, 2010
...that's all I can say. Sad to watch.
Paulo
written by A Brazilian, October 22, 2010
Paulo, please stop posting pictures. Nobody cares. Only brain damaged African-Americans post pictures of people to try find traces of African blood. This is ridiculous.

Obviously racism in Brazil is completely different from racism in the USA. If you consider brown people not being black, it is your problem, because your definition goes against definition from IBGE, SEADE, ONU and all USA academic world.


I stopped a little to think about what to answer. You are so clueless I am afraid you won't understand what I mean.

There is a name for this type of "academia". It is called QUACKADEMIA.

Quackademics are pseudo-scientists who either maliciously or not create false information.

The recent global warming scandal is one example of it. In some sciences it is less problematic, especially in exact sciences, although you can still find it there.

Sociology, on the other hand, is full of it. Do you know about the scientific method at all? It is not even possible to reproduce much of what passes for science in sociology.

I urge you to watch the YouTube movie I posted here, because you are in serious need of a shake up.

And again, all those defined in the USA are based on the One Drop Rule, Jim Crow segregation mentality.

Based on what you have said so far you personally believe that to be correct? Right?

If so, then that makes you a racist. I am sorry, but that's the reality. You are a racist and start questioning yourself why.
no peanut butter, eh joao ?
written by asp, October 22, 2010
..that isnt what i get from paulo. i get that he is a black brazilian who perceives racism in brazil

a brazilian, i just dont understand you.you are stuck on this "one drop rule" thing from the arcaic south (picked up on by some black people from the south. because where i was raised, that wasnt an issue among the black people). there are huge amounts of very light skinned mixed people that arnt confronted with what their racial background is on a daily basis.

not that they arnt aware of who they are, what they look like and where they came from, because every body looks in the mirror and asks themselves that

you are painting a picture of the usa as though its stuck in some kind of rigid color code system that is screening peoples racial history every step of the way (for sure ther are some bearocratic things like social security that ask racial backgrounds that are ridiculas. i didnt know what to put for my bi racial , half brazilian son, since they didnt have a catagory that fit, i just checked "black hispanic" with nagging doubts i should have checked "other")

. last time ive passed through american cities , like miami, new york, los angeles ( all on business in the last 2 years), i saw a huge range and diversity of people that was as mixed as rio or sao paulo. there are huge amounts of people that couldnt be classified as black or white.

how people want to classify themselves is fine with me.

what im concerned with is a huge group of people blatently or subtely excluded from their rightful place in society .

where we can agree that the usa and brazil have very differant dynamics going on in this issue of racial discrimination , there are extremly similar results .that the descendants of slaves brought from west africa , have been saddled with obsticles of social and economic exclusion since they got off the boat.and these factors are plauging both societies right into today , and are roots of a huge amount of social problems in our societies.

the black white devide in the states ? great, i hope brazil never ever comes close to going through that.

but, to think there is no racism in brazil is naive. the divisions are blatently and painfully obvious.

brazuka,so now we see its just those american black militants that really stick in your craw. fine if that is what is really bugging you, but, how can you say there is no racism in brazil? how can you imply there is no "cultura afto brasileiro"? you dont fool me with "all those people in brazilian congress would be classified as black in the usa "one drop rule..."..... "

there are very real racialy discriminating dynamics in place in brazil directly related to the atlantic slave trade. they didnt just disapear with racial mixing in brazil.

the racial mixture in brazil is one of its most incredible rich and beautiful manifestations that it offers for the world to see...

but that doesnt change that it has to deal with social problems that came out of the atlantic slave trade...or dont deal with it and be at the mercy of the results of not confronting it

all the posts i brought in have absolutly nothing to do with the ford foundation or black american militants coming down telling people what to do
QUACKADEMIA
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
There is a name for this type of "academia". It is called QUACKADEMIA.


Quackademia - In Harvard? In Princeton? SEADE? IBGE?

I've got Vanessa da Mata name in a list of Brazilians with black ancestry in Wikipedia. How her nake appeared there, I don't know. I'll try to send the page to her to know if she will complain.

To make people even more confused, take a look at Camila Pitanga, a very well known self-reported black brazilian who is, indeed a multiracial person:





And if you complained about the pictures, someone do cares about them: you.
And a warning
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
I've said:

As I know, Brown people, in their majority, also suffer prejudice. If they refuse to accept their African ancestry, their problem.


I really believe in this sentence. But, as asp said, the approach over rcism in Brazil and USA are completely different. If people (white people, predominantly) continue to be blind on racism and exclusion patterns in Brazil, things won't be as bad as in the USA.

Things will be worse.

And as I know, Indigenous-brazilians (or Indian, or Native-brazilians) also suffer a high degree of prejudice. And they are a tiny minority in Brazil, in a very precarious condition.
No more a warning
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
Considering the high levels of violence in Rio de Janeiro favelas and outskirts (the famigerados subúrbios), things are, already, worse.
QUACKADEMIA again
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
"A Brazilian",

did you said:
Sociology, on the other hand, is full of it.

Reffering to Quackademia.

Sociology is a science almost entirely based in arbitrary definitions, based in Max Weber "Ideal model", Karl Marx "Historic materialism" and in a technique called "phenomenology", that Sociology has taken from Phylosophy.

If these definitions come from racist people or not, it's indifferent, because these definitions are arbitrary and science has no ideology.

These definitions are confronted from data got by statistics. That's because SEADE and IBGE are so important to social studies in Brazil. If such definitions match the reality, they are considered correct until someone disprove them. This is called science falseability. That's due this feature, these arbitrary definitions are considered science.

They are available to anyone falsify them. And to define a brown person a black is a falseable definition.

Now, go ahead. It's your chance to prove that Brazil isn't a racist place and falsify the IBGE/SEADE (none of them are American institutions) data and definitions on to be black or not, and become famous.

As I've already said. I don't discuss opinion. I discuss facts and data.

And a thing: why only brazilians (white, I think) complain when someone say there is racism in Brazil?
Clueless
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
A brazilian:

You've said:

You are so clueless I am afraid you won't understand what I mean.


I, clueless? I'm giving you a lot of official information and am I the clueless person? I explain thoroughly each detail of my point of views and am I clueless? I give you a testimony of MY OWN LIFE, and am I clueless?

To be cluefull, I would need to live abroad and take a slap in my face to prove that I suffer racism?

As I can perceive, clueless is you. Just take a read on data i've shown you, or you forgot how to read portuguese?

I don't care what do you think about me. As a black brazilian, I'm used to be offended from almost all sides, on all places I go. People even change the sidewalks when they see me (unless when I using posh clothes).

But here, in Brazil, racism doesn't exists. It's an invention from the Americans.... From Harvard, Princeton and UTexas...
...
written by João da Silva, October 22, 2010

What I am complaining about is bringing American racialization, and the division that comes from this, to Brazil. How will Brazil gain from this? It is a strategy by outside interests to hobble the emergence of this potential power.


It is a legitimate complaint and many Brasilians of all "races" would agree with you, Brazuka. The latest Census conducted by IBGE supports your theory. It is the first time ever I have been asked to define my "race" and the family income in the Census. To the first question I asked the Census taker to define it for me and refused to answer the second question. He appreciated both the answers.smilies/cheesy.gif

NO WELL EDUCATED REPLIES
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
My posts on racism, in Brazil, already become a FEUD among brazilians in a magazine for American people. I think this ridiculous.

About the anti-racism opinions, get fu**ed with'em. I'm tired of this. I don't want to bring my daily fight against racism online. Almost all white brazilians think like the people who disagree on my positions in this post. I have no arguments to them and they have no arguments to me. Gotta-hell with these arguments, at all.

Discuss all information I've sent you among you. I'M TIRED AND FU**ED FURIOUS ON THIS.

I don't want to be called ignorant, clueless, racist, americanized or someone else because I've gave a testimony.

Racism is polemical subject; but, in Brazil, it gets bitter as castor oil. I have a lot of problems to do instead to deal with this kind of stupid bitterness.

You have a link to my blog. Send your possible stupid questions regarding racism there. It would be easy for me to deal with them: I'll just delete.
dont worry , paulo....
written by asp, October 22, 2010
your testimony has been extremly valuable to the tea and crummpets brigade on here

they may not get it, since everybody on here just stays stuck in their opinion even if you bludgeon them over the head with facts , but it is sub conciously sinking in

well, joao, i hear too much tea and crummpets will change your coloring
...
written by A Brazilian, October 22, 2010
Now, go ahead. It's your chance to prove that Brazil isn't a racist place and falsify the IBGE/SEADE (none of them are American institutions) data and definitions on to be black or not, and become famous.


It is not up to me to prove anything, because you can't prove a negative.

Those affirming those things that must provide the evidence. which sociology is lacking.

Yes, those definitions are politically motivated and based on the prejudices of those who created them. THAT'S NOT REAL SCIENCE. And, BTW, neither is "getting famous".

I suggested you stopped posting pictures because it makes you look like a complete fool. But I respect your right to make a fool of yourself. Go ahead.

Paulo, you are a racist. You believe in the supremacy of one race, the black one, so much that you believe a single drop of black blood can make someone black. For you the black blood is superior to all others.

You should start thinking about it. Did you watch the link I posted here about control? You should, you are just another victim.

Quackademia - In Harvard? In Princeton? SEADE? IBGE?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A..._authority

Appeal to authority is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement is correct because the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative.


Yes, quackademia, especially in those places.
Brazuca
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
Did you said:

What I am complaining about is bringing American racialization, and the division that comes from this, to Brazil. How will Brazil gain from this? It is a strategy by outside interests to hobble the emergence of this potential power.


And said:

Paulo, you are a racist. You believe in the supremacy of one race, the black one, so much that you believe a single drop of black blood can make someone black. For you the black blood is superior to all others.


And said:

What has the American "definition" to do with Brazil? In America the word "motel" carries a very different meaning to the same word as used in Brazil. Does that mean that you, Paulo, will from now on start campaigning for the adoption of the American understanding of that word in Brazil?


My conclusion: f**k you.

Don't be worried about racialization. Brazil is already a deeply divided society, socially and racially. American racialization wouldn't bring here any harm. Someone coined the term Social Apartheid for Brazil. I hate this term because it is absurdly exagerated, but the term isn't wrong in its entirety. What a white person, which the unique North Zone has visited is Tijuca, a high-middle class one, and never gone to the Subúrbios known about racial exclusion. I think that American racialization in Brazil is welcome, because it turns the racism discussion on the top list of subjects in this enourmously divided, injust, unequal and violent country.

About Quackademia, that's OK, the definition is OK. Then the USA academia is making quackademia for almost sixty years, and Brazilians institutions have begun to make quackademia too. As I am clueless, ignorant, racist and something more else, I am a Quackademic too.

And I am blatantly racist if you want so. But I'll continue to have links with white people, white girlfriends and white friends, because, apart my family, I've known very little black people and we've not gotten friend, at all.

You must know that racialism in Brazil is huge, blatant and growing. I already know braziliam black people (I've known in FFLCH) that really hate white people. The well known rapper MV Bill, in an old interview to the magazine "Caros Amigos", a radical leftwing magazine, said that it is the hour to black people take power.

This behavior pattern from black brazilians remembers me the patterns of the old Black-Panther-Parties (from USA 1960s-70s) and Black Power movement (from USA 1930s-40s). It seems that racial discussion in Brazil is somewhat 80 years delayed, in comparison to the USA.

When, recently, black/pardo people got into consumer market, through Plano Real/Monetary Stabilization/Social Programs like bolsa-família, Fome Zero, Universidade para todos, they got a touch of American Black culture through cable TV - on Sitcoms like "The Fresh Prince of Belair", or "Me, My Wife and Kids", and many other, or movies like Clueless ("As patricinhas de Beverly Hills"), regarding upper-class blacks, or films like Malcom X, that expose blacks as heros and these american culture put black people to think: if they can there, why cannot we can here?

The brazilian racialization isn't a movement from top to down. It's quite opposite. It's down to up. The government actions on racial discussion weren't provoked by a messias or a good white soul that perceived the problem. The governement actions, including affirmative action - which one I'm against - occurr because the government knows that if the deep racial divide in Brazil wouldn't solve, very soon we'll see social upheaval. I've already saw this in Rio de Janeiro: when a big drug dealler was shot to death by police and Rocinha people closed Niemeyer avenue, in one of the most upscale and beautiful districts in the city, São Conrado. The vast majority of people were black, and they were't complaining only the death of a bandit, they were complaining about their abandonment and exclusion too.

P.S.: About pictures: I like to be fool. I have a huge tendency to behave as a fool - as replying posts about people that know nothing about black Brazil.
I realized a thing
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
I must frequent the Rio outskirts more, in the places my family live. In that place I feel at home. Maybe I open the Rio de Janeiro branch of my company there. In Realengo. Maybe I finally get a black girlfriend. Instead of go to the Disco, or any other Vila Olímpia Nightclub, may I attend "Delírio da Zona Oeste" (a Samba School) or BigField, a nighthouse from "Campo Grande", a Rio's suburban neighbourhood which name, translated to english, is exactly, Big Field. Now I won't complain to be called African-Brazilian anymore.

I've learned a lot of things with this discussions.

Thank you all. From people whom agreed me (like asp) to people that put my arguments to proof (like Brazuca and "A Brazilian").
Paulo
written by A Brazilian, October 22, 2010
You were quoting lines from Brazuca, I am "A Brazilian". You should read more carefully.

The current "racial politics" from Lula is completely orchatrated by international, mostly white, elites. It comes from some high tower and not from the people.

If the people wanted it then somewhere in the last 500 years Brazil would have seen it.

On the contrary, the miscegenation only increases, the people live as one society and one country out of their own free will, without anyone to force them.

The miscegenation only proves the lack of racism in Brazil. If people hated each other would they get married?

You are out of your mind. You should meditate carefully about this and find the correct answer.

So far you were unable to express yourself in a rational way and is desperatly trying to appeal to emotions or authority.
Information
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
The current "racial politics" from Lula is completely orchatrated by international, mostly white, elites. It comes from some high tower and not from the people.


This is a really interesting assertive. I'll look for information about this. But you won't know my opinion on these because I'm finishing my contributions to this article.

Bye.
Paulo - Welcome to the world of Doublespeak!
written by adrianerik, October 22, 2010
Where to begin? So many poppy-eyed fish swimming in the pond, stinking it up.

First, let's start with a definition.

From the United Nations - commonly accepted from the speech given by Haile Selassie concerning world racism.

Until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned, everywhere is war


THIS is the evil racism that has afflicted the world and has led to the domination and destruction of peoples.

Let's see how one of the poppy-eyed fish defines racism in his silly, ignorant way.

"they TALKING about race." Ergo - "they are the most racist in America."

That's paraphrased from A Brazilian above.

Be careful about DOUBLE-SPEAK, Paulo. It leads to mind-fuk. You'll notice that this a*****e not once can say "white racism". I offer him as my evidence number one that mixed-race has nothing to do with a person, family or group being free of being infected by 'white racism'. The first symptom is that they cannot even see it. A Brazilian, in probably one of the most sickest 'white racist country on earth' only sees "African American racism".

Here's a clip from a documentary on CNN - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m-xhE2MAY8

It mirrors the same experiment done in 1947. What does it show? Racism is not something that you TALK about. It is a belief that is wrapped around the mythological lies of a culture. The pathetic white saints evoking tears hanging in front of blonde Jesuss. White heroes who like the white man in Avatar, is needed to rescue an entire race from itself. Your mixed-race in Brazil watches bulls**t novellas that does not mirror the so-called 'racial democracy' that A-sshole Brazilian wants to proclaim.

Placing a category on a census form does NOT create social reality. It does tell the racist emperors of Brazil that they, in fact, have no clothes on. That their racism is naked. In the world of NewSpeak, it didn't have a voice. It couldn't express itself. It couldn't explain to people what was happening to them.

But they knew they were being fuked over. And A-hole Brazilian wants us to believe that they were being f**ked over...happily.

And now, finally, when a black brazilian does something as simple as look into a mirror, comb out their hair, rather than killing it with straighteners, and says, "hmmm, I look damn good."

A Brazilian howls and says "Racial talk! Brazil is becoming racist!!"

I've seen the roots of this so-called miscegnation. Young women who swear that they are dark and ugly. Yet they are beautiful. Young children who grow up ready to be fuked by anything lighter than them...not out of love, but out of rescue. I have a friend in Rio, a lawyer, the darkest in her family. To make her cry, even now, her lightskinned aunts rub their fingers over their pale, sickly skin and point at her...ridiculing her 'dark ugliness'.

Try that s**t with we dark Americans. And yes, I think that the world should reach a point where love is between equals, not a cripple.

And any people at all, white, black or mixed race still swallowing white racist semen in their culture and history and religon are mentally retarded.
The Anger Card!
written by adrianerik, October 22, 2010
The Anger Card has always been played by those not wanting to confront the facts of racism...and sexism.

The feeling is "anybody who doesn't like me...must be irrational...must be ANGRY (ie..out of control, not able to think clearly).

There is this inability to accept that a person can intelligently study your history, analyze your culture, ferret out the lies and myths and despise every myth around which you build your lives of cards.

Despise it coolly and calmly...and still enjoy a glass of wine.

Every black leader from Zumbi to Frederick Douglas to Nelson Mandela to DuBois to Ida B Wells to Michelle Obama...has been called angry.

Many white abolitionists and humanists also have been called ANGRY! They must be....'white supremacy is so...so...wonderful! that anybody against it and 'us' can't think straight...they must be...ANGRY!'

John Brown has been depicted as a crazed, old man with a long white beard and lightning around his head as if he was a well-intentioned man driven mad by a too intense belief.

Actually, he was clean-shaven, looked like any educated, lucid white man...just some average Joe.

What! An average Joe...a white man! Despising our sacred lies of white supremacy. He must be...(you got it) ANGRY! Put a crazy beard on that n****r-lover.

Paulo...you are successful. You are NOT SUPPOSED to have any affinity for those down-and-out-pretos in Brazil. You are supposed to hang out in Barra da Tijuca and tsk-tsk-tsk at the poor unfortunates in Brazilian society.

That you don't do this...makes you 'angry'.

To me, it makes you refreshing!
Dear Adrianerik
written by Paulo, October 22, 2010
I agree with you (I've promissed no more contributions, nor discussions), but I'm already accostumed to Brazilian NewSpeak (And I love 1984 book). And the history of your friend is very sad. I am the darkest in my family, including my uncles - previously I've confused uncle with cousin (I don't use english a lot, I forget the meaning of some words; but, it doesn't reduce my testimony, after all) - my parents, with the exception of my only grand-mother alive, the mother of my father. I'm even a kind of reference of a person truly black: "he is darker than Paulo". Take a look at my photo, on my blog. Never anyone tried to say me ugly due my darkness. They know the kind of reply I would give'em. A guy tried to say this and I said him that I have a mirror in my house. When I go to the nighthouses, and in areas with a huge acceptance on black people, a lot of girls get interest on me (unfortunately, almost always, to be the "other" guy - I don't know why married women like me so much!) The history of your friend is truly sad. And, as I've said, black brazilian have low self steem.

Now, opinions on posts and testimonies - I won't give more. I've gave him exception, sending this post, because this is not a discussion on different points of view and that the history of your friend is really terrible.

And I will look for references about international pressure on Brazil to deal with racism and categorize its people. It seems me conspiratory theory, but I think it worths a deeper sight.

Regards.
thanks again for your testimony, paulo
written by asp, October 22, 2010
it is good to hear your point of veiw on here ( i was going to mention the tv shows, they are showing "everybody hates chris" back to back without comercials on rede record, a great show about a black family struggling in bedford styverson ). by the way, ive lived in brazil 24 years, the first 7 in rio and i agree with your portrayal of the rio dynamic

same with your testimony, adrian erik.i know you are deeply involved with trying to better the lives of black brazilians
Good Approach!
written by adrianerik, October 22, 2010
Yes, Paulo it is good to research everything to verify whether it is so...or not. I research those I disagree with as diligently as I research those who share my views.

I've learned that it's better not to attach one's ego to a particular position. When the goal is to help others, and not "big up" yourself, then it becomes easier to adopt positions that lead to a better world for everyone.

And if society is indeed, already perfect...then good! Let's all go to the beach and have some shrimps and white wine.

Who wants to fight just for the sake of fighting. I truly would like to spend time fishing and I would like to get a boat.

But if we find that people need help, then we should help. In whatever way that we can.

tchau
Adrianerik
written by A Brazilian, October 22, 2010
The problem with your writing is that it is just racist rethoric. You don't make a point, only try to gain sympathy by appealing to emotions.

The problem is not talking about race, the problem is the source of some ideas and the context in which they are used.

Always keep track of the big picture. Then it is possible to see the strings and the puppets. The system put in place to control the dumb masses.

Again, it doesn't matter how much you kick and scream, one thing is real: people choose to live together out of their own free will. How can this be if according to you everyone hates each other so much?

Why would a white person marry a black person if, according to you, they prize "whiteness" so much?

Those are all fabrications of your racist mind.

Have anyone watched the Youtube video I posted here. There it explains how "identities" are manufactured and how they work.
asp
written by João da Silva, October 22, 2010

well, joao, i hear too much tea and crummpets will change your coloring


To avoid "discoloring", I have decided to go with the "tea and scones" crowd, as per the advice of our comrade-in-arms, Cel.Ederson.smilies/cool.gif
i checked it out, a brazilian...
written by asp, October 23, 2010
i dont know, a brazilian, i dont think im that above everyone as far as perception, but, i always knew the media was one big hype manipulation machine. and this guy has a little too much speculation going on for my taste.

ive read a few of the concspiracy theories about the assasinations of the various people and they all always come up with some loose holes

i asure you that the black militant revolution was not born out of cia mind manipulation.

adrian erik, i agree with most of what you say but this statement you made below i think was a little bit too many glasses of wine

"I've seen the roots of this so-called miscegnation.(this part next has some truth to it ) Young women who swear that they are dark and ugly. Yet they are beautiful.(this next part im not in agreement with) Young children who grow up ready to be fuked by anything lighter than them...not out of love, but out of rescue."

the brazilian mixture is one of the wonderful things that it has.its extremly more complex than how you have put it here. of course i agree with the colorism that is rampant. but, black brazilian women have more will on their own than you give credit for.

they dont just look for anything lighter. many times they come from abusive relationships with black men and they just arnt hung up to think that a white man that wants to have a relationship with them is the linc to white colonial slavery.,.a big hang up in the states...the brazilian black women is ahead of the black american women on that count.

just like the brazilian women is much more advanced than the american women who has been led to belive by militant feminists that to wear a string bikini on the beash is some kind of degrading act....nothing could be further from the truth

because , inspite of the many gains african americans have won with the hard fight, exactly where it is at now with race relations , sucks. there is a huge black white racial division. so , on some level, it hasnt reached as high a level as it could be in the usa now.there is still a long way to go. granted, i blame white racism for the position black americans are forced to be in.not that brazils racism is any better, but there are things both countries can learn from each other about this reacial problem and racism.

i know many black brazilin women who came out of abusive relationships with black brazilians who ended up marrying white foreingners and have had stable relationships for years now (this is definitly not my personal experiance, its freinds i know).

i know you have to come up with some hard points to counter some of the bs you have had to hear in here, but, you are lumping a whole lot of women into one bag , and it reflects more your personal feelings than reality.
by the way, adrian...
written by asp, October 23, 2010
i dont have much of an argument here with you, much of what you say i agree with. just not everything.

and im wondering , in earnest, what your opinion of what this black brazilian women sais in a responce to a black american. i beleive you know this women, ana paula. i dont agree with everything she has ever written , and i cant stand her bobao clown husband, but im curious what you think of her responce (i in no way consider this a responce to you, just a point of veiw of a black brazilian woman answering a black american , and im curious to your opinion) :

" Tal afirmação ignora as diferenças e histórias específcas de cada país e a pergunta que os afro americanos teimam em fazer, quando olham a experiência negra brasileira, é "por que o Brasil não passou pelas mesmos processos que resultou nos direitos civis nos EUA?". A meu ver, essa pergunta se equivale a uma tentiva de retornar ao "modelo social evolucionista de civilização", que coloca o Brasil como menos apto ao processo civilizatório e os EUA no topo desta equação. Meu caro amigo, isto é, infelizmente, uma visão imperialista, mesmo que quem a articula tenha a melhor das boas intenções.

Como diz um ditado aqui no Brasil: "De boas intenções o inferno está cheio".

Poderíamos inverter a pergunta: por que os EUA não seguiram a trajetória dos movimentos negros brasileiros? Ahn, mas esqueci um ponmto: vocês norte-americanos acham que "movimento negro brasileiro" não existe, ou é apenas um fenômeno recente. Não é? Todavia, tal visão presumiria, meu caro, a noção de que o Brasil não está tão atrasado em relação aos EUA.

A sua pretensa irmandade negra parte do princípio que nós, pobres negros brasileiros, aceitemos o fato de sermos menos educados, menos "civilizados" e que não entendemos o processo histórico e deveríamos aceitar de bom grado a ajuda de nossos irmãos afro americanos, mais ricos e poderosos a encontrarmos o caminho do "progresso" que, por sinal, é o mesmo e único que eles trilharam.

Caro Imhotep, desculpa, mas esta "ajuda" eu recuso. Enquanto os irmãos afro americanos como você não compreenderem que nós, negros brasileiros, temos uma história bastante complexa e que não merecemos ser reduzidos a condição de "pobres", "incivilizados" e incapazes de nos "livrarmos do PODER BRANCO" (por causa de nossa preguiça ou incompetência), é dificil achar que vamos querer o auxilio de gente como você.

asp
written by João da Silva, October 23, 2010

by the way, adrian...
written by asp, October 23, 2010
i dont have much of an argument here with you, much of what you say i agree with. just not everything.


You agree with him almost on many things, but not on everything? Your argument is not too convincing.smilies/wink.gif

You either agree 1000000% or 0.00%. No percentage in between.smilies/shocked.gif
Come on You guys!
written by adrianerik, October 24, 2010
1) Ana's piece. Hopefully, I'll pass through Rio in late November or early December and I'll have another late-at-night discussion with my two buddies. They already know that I believe that a long line of academics should be lined up just behind the politicians and the lawyers and the coroneis of the PM after the 'glorious revolution'.

(jesting)

But, in my opinion, your excerpt from Ana highlights what I think one of the problem is. It is clearly directed at someone called "Imhotep". I don't who that is, probably some African American 'militant' on the internet, pushing their fiery brand of 'pan-african' militancy.

And I believe that Ana's response, doesn't necessarily stem from a researched foothold in 'comparative activism' and 'comparative social movements'. I think it is the response of a very intelligent person, whose head, brimming with data and facts, hurls cannonballs at a 'movement' as defined by the loud-mouthed pan-african militant but that is not necessarily the evolving movement being shaped by people in Brazil, allied with people from many other communities. Our definitions of activism, activists and movement differ. I have a lady friend, African American young MBA out of Stanford. She spent some time in Brazil, developing a condensed version of an MBA program for excluded young black girls in Salvador, part of the Fundacao Stephen Biko, headed by Silvio with help from Nilo dos Santos, masters degrees in Econ from USP and PhD from the Sorbonne, respectively (take that! Cristaldo!). When this program was over, you could easily tell the difference in the young black women who took part in this condensed course. The way they walked, they way they dressed, the confident way that they strutted through Salvador, the glow in their eyes, their confidence at understanding a bit more the social and economic mechanics that attempts to control their lives.

This friend is to me...a 'militant'. More dangerous, happily so, than the pan-african militant that I feel are in the gazes of my friends. She is a militant, who did not set the agenda for black brazilians. It is an insult to people like Silvio and dos Santos who insist that this is done. There is this immense patronizing of Black brazilians as if they CANNOT define their own reality. Just listen to A Brazilians' words and, especially Brazuca's. They have reduced the ability of a people to affirm themselves to nothing. Activists are not slaves to their ideology. Thesis and raging debates on the internet, and debates on panels at universities are far different from people who apply them, one community at at time. What doesn't work, doesn't work. What works, works. Personally, understanding the dangers of the 'ends justify the means' viewpoint, I'm somewhat too Machiavellian than I should be. But it has its place.

Especially in an environment where I glean that, socially speaking, a number, probably a majority, of posters on this site, actually feel that the status quo of Brazil's society is acceptable.

I mentioned the absence of a cogent 'outrage' AND suggestions for solutions from Brazilians on this site (and my years on the forums.) I may be wrong, but I think that Joao was angry about that, challenging me to list MY solutions.

Interestingly, I've been consistent in saying that most of my friends don't BRING an agenda to Brazil. But an agenda exists. A large part of which I agree with. However, the opinions of black brazilians are treated like s**t, even by nice people. They are denied the ability to set their own agendas. They are too "simple", unless 'manipulated' by Ford. I could easily point towards Fundacao Stephen Biko, Cidade Mae, Ile Aiye, Centro das Artes E Cultura, A Mulherada, Dida', Tobogosis (a group of young black women) and others and easily say listen to them, and 90% of what they feel are solutions to better Brazil's society I agree with.

But no one listens to them. They are not in their right mind. They are...angry!
Help Me Shoot Myself in the Head!
written by adrianerik, October 24, 2010
When I hear A Brazilian and his ridiculous 'mixed race' rationale for the road to Eden, I can only laugh.

After much blustering and huffing and puffing, his views boils down to this, "the actual basis of Brazil's society is sound...it is working!" And as he stated, in other posts on this thread, the 'preto' is disappearing, year after year. When they are gone, the question of whether white supremacist lies and myths still poison Brazil's society will be moot because after all, the 'nasty' dark people who would be most affected by these white supremacist myths and lies won't exist anymore. So, we won't have to put up with their nastiness.

I use those words because, as much as A Brazilian pretends to be for some kum-bah-yah love for mankind, he has, in other posts on this forum, clearly indicated how much he detests these very same dark people.

I think of his rationale this way, if Hitler and his Nazi Brownshirts had succeeded in their 'Final Solution' in eliminating Jews, then, by 'definition' their would be no anti-semitism in Germany. There would be no way that the world could accuse Germany of hating Jews because, with no Jews around...where is the evidence?

There is too much to deal with in A Brazilian's confusion. He uses 'mixed-race' which is problematical. Clearly, in his mind, and based upon his other posts about the 'elimination of the preto', mixed-race to him means 'lightening'. Which is also problematical, since, unless his solution only sees white/black unions as being the ideal and the 'lighter mixed race' only mating with each other...you know...to preserve the 'purity' of 'mixed race' and avoid 'preto' throwbacks, they you WILL have preto throwbacks.

Hmmm...maybe this destruction of the preto would be an interative process. You know, fuk the girls who meet the 'requirements' and let the boys with 'too much' non-desired feature combinations (who act up because O Globo and Veja will still, quite innocently(?), project a world where all things virtuous and pure and good will trend towards the 'bem branco' world, then these poor unfortunates will have to try their luck with the PM.

In time, it might work.

Not a chance. IF Brazil is a racial 'democracy' then there is no need to say 'racial democracy'. Race doesn't exist. Every hue is afforded the power of their humanity to have equal space in the 'affirmation' sphere of society. Just as in Abdias Nascimento's Sortilegio, the economic sphere, in itself, does not affirm a human being. (if so, then let's all just become socialist or communist and enjoy paradise!)

A Brazilian 'human being' who wears dreadlocks or chooses, for their personal edification, an afro style, would just be another Brazilian 'human being' who, while manifesting their personal diversity, still finds a place in Brazil's...let's call it 'social democracy'. Actually, they should be more respected because, rather than destroying their hair with poisonous chemicals to straigten their hair, they are choosing a healthy lifestyle.

Hmmm...with character like that, they should be the first hired.
Adrienerik ... you're crazy
written by Brazuca, October 24, 2010
But if you're insistent on continuing on in your quest ... ya gotta start with the japas, man. Cuz they're the worst. They make the bem-brancos look like lazy amateurs! Start at the top, man. Start with the worst offenders. The most racist of them all. The japas.

The jaaaapaaaaaas -- remember that. Gimme a "j" ... gimme a ... anyway, you get the idea, I think.
Sex!
written by adrianerik, October 24, 2010
Has meant very little as far as the equality of a society is concerned.

Human mating has been more of a scramble for survival rather than some example of harmonious co-existance. I mean, Thomas Jefferson publicly had a thing for Sally Hemings just as Napoleon had his thing for Josephine. Yet to Jefferson, his 'n****r' slaves were just that...property. And to Napoleon, the Haitians uprising against him were not 'animals', but "African black savages'.

Racism and sexism is a poisonous mix.

To answer ASP and A Brazilian - Firstly...yes, there exists tens of thousands of 'inter-racial' matings because two human beings 'loved' each other.

Two, there exists SOME interracial matings because, the caveat to racism is, that just because a system says that you are the great 'white all that' doesn't make it so. Particularly when other great 'white all thats' are pissing in your face. So, in your scramble to feel like somebody, and not meeting the standards of the 'greatER white all thats' then second tier begins to look good.

Especially if SOME (the word 'some' is for you, ASP) second tier folks, infected by O Globo's and society's general whitewashing, and more so, by the general society's reductionism, exotic objectification, ridiculing, and downright dismissing of the culture of people who surrounded you for most of your life, then...being OUT of that has as much to do with your choices than being "INTO' some other acceptable level.

That's "some".

You wouldn't believe the number of friends I have who say "I know it's hard to believe but I'm not really into white men, like so many of my friends are."

And ASP, I don't think that black women turn to white men because they have been brutalized by their 'black' boyfriends. What of the tens of thousands of white women who have been brutalized by their white boyfriends. Do we see this trend towards "I'm ONLY going to find a black man!" Or don't white men brutalize women?

Sadly, the most vicious evidence of racism lies among the victims. It manifests itself in lack of value of life for those who look like you, in the same objectification of the women (particularly in the climate of sexism), in the defining of money, power and/or sex as signs of manhood and superficialities of beauty and sensuality as signs of womanhood. In a folklorization of culture that leans towards escapism, rather than a culture that clarifies the world and one's environment and puts one at the helm of one's own life.

Salvador is evidence number one. Which is why it is laughable to hear someone like A Brazilian say that our efforts are AGAINST whites. The first defense against social infection is to mount your own cocoon against it. Anyone who spends time talking against a particular race or people has too much time on their hands.

Anyone who gets indignant because of some individual's choice of mate has too much time on their hands. The goal of an activist is not to UN-do, but to DO. You only show a person that they are drinking dirty water by placing a clean glass of water besides them.

"Let your light so shine among men that they may see your good works..."

(that will drive Brazuca crazy. Watch!).

Just the same, African Americans have a spiritual that goes "Let your light shine, shine, shine. Might be someone in the valley trying to get home. That is militant!

That's the spiritual I would leave for the militants troubling Ana and beau.
thanks adrian, for your answer....
written by asp, October 24, 2010
i like what you said about your freinds , ana paula and her husband, who i think is blowhard . the guy is going to get his blocked knocked off at some point. he has no real concept of afro centric culture and music, and , how it has been passed on to brazil. the idiot couldnt even give credit to a bambuti pygmy rhythm that is also common in other west african beats , as being in brazilian condomble (not that it came from the pygmies, but that it is a common beat spread thoughout sub sahara africa and is part of the genius of a certain aspect of sub sahara african culture, and beleive me i am not saying all sub sahara africa is the same.but there are cultural bonds, the same as europe has many countries and differant languages, but, classical music represents a high level cultural bond of the varios countries who have contributed composers symphonies and operas to the classical music canon) . he is so stuck in his intelectualisms and the theories he is invested in , that he cant even see the big picture.

as i said, im in a lot of agreement with you.(no scones or crummpets for you tonight , joao ).

"They already know that I believe that a long line of academics should be lined up just behind the politicians and the lawyers and the coroneis of the PM after the 'glorious revolution'. "

i agree with that

i respect a lot of what you are doing up there in salvador, good luck

(didnt ana paula's husband almost get beat up in salvador for running his mouth off?)

Adrianerik
written by A Brazilian, October 24, 2010
You are losing it. You have written a lot and, as usual, said nothing.

After much blustering and huffing and puffing, his views boils down to this, "the actual basis of Brazil's society is sound...it is working!" And as he stated, in other posts on this thread, the 'preto' is disappearing, year after year. When they are gone, the question of whether white supremacist lies and myths still poison Brazil's society will be moot because after all, the 'nasty' dark people who would be most affected by these white supremacist myths and lies won't exist anymore. So, we won't have to put up with their nastiness.


That's what you are saying, with a lot of emotion by the way.

I only pointed out the reality. The picture Black racists like to paint is that blacks in Brazil are treated like s**t.

If that was true then everyone else would avoid them at all costs, and naturally the numbers of mixed race people should go down and not up.

Human mating has been more of a scramble for survival rather than some example of harmonious co-existance. I mean, Thomas Jefferson publicly had a thing for Sally Hemings just as Napoleon had his thing for Josephine. Yet to Jefferson, his 'n****r' slaves were just that...property. And to Napoleon, the Haitians uprising against him were not 'animals', but "African black savages'.


The increase in the mixed race numbers occurred in the last 50 years and not in some remote past. Brazil is an industrialized country with most of its population living in urban areas.

So where did the slaves of your sorry excuse for a rebuttal come from? You make no sense.

That's the problem with American blacks. They are so invested in all the non-sense they have invented that they just refuse the see reality.

You are racist. Admit it.
Slaves!
written by adrianerik, October 24, 2010
Precisely! We are not talking about some remote past. We are talking about when the social interaction is the greatest.

And if you understand anything about urban society, then you'll know that's where excluded people are at their weakest, where there is less community, where the general isolation of urban life leaves people to fend for themselves. AND it is where the images of urban society, of beauty, of acceptance and of rejection, are most virulent.

Sorry, kiddo, you are like the conservatives in America. If you don't hear what you WANT to hear, then you hear nothing.

That's sad.

You try to send people to some video about identity. A video!!! Just read up on basic psychology. Most adult fears are set by age 12. And it is when children are around 5 thru 12 that they search their society for images that reflect themselves. When they don't exist,they try to assume the images of that which society deems beautiful and respectable.

You, like Magnolio want to get into this yin-yang of sociological race. Everyone knows that it doesn't exit.

So....what is mixed-RACE! Boo boo?
And make it snappy
written by adrianerik, October 24, 2010
I have to prepare a lesson plan for tomorrow. Okay.
And.....
written by adrianerik, October 24, 2010
And while you're at it, give me your definiton of racism. One of the biggest mistakes of Brazil was to put racism in its constitution and to define it in such a superficial way that simple run-ins between blacks and whites in the supermarket become elevated to front page news. And when one or the other apologizes the country feels that "Wow, we are addressing racism!"

So, boo-boo, what exactly is it? Are you using Peter Fry's definition or the one accepted by most of the world for most of the 20th century?

I've been thinking...
written by Brazuca, October 24, 2010
Adrienerik, you know, I've been trying to understand you for a few years now. And I've finally come to the conclusion that you can't be understood. Just reading what you've been writing in the last few posts I sense some sort of post-traumatic stress disorder -- I'm just taking a stab here. I don't ordinarily give quackologists -- sorry, pyschologists/psychiatrists -- much time, but they can point out some useful things occasionally. Apparently there may be a "stress disorder" associated with trauma one has undergone. As I said, these are merely psychologists/psychiatrists speaking, so you need to take whatever they say with a grain of salt.

Anyway, I know I've been teasing you over time over your involvement in shooting down that Iranian civilian airliner in the 1980s and killing all on board. As psychologists like to say, there may be some "unresolved issues" associated with this event as well as issues to do with guilt and blaming oneself for what happened. You may be doing whatever it is you're doing in Brazil as some form of catharsis -- I've suggested this before in passing, though in an unkind spirit.

As I've said, I've for a long time tried to figure out how you think and how your mind works but, judging from your "emotionally unstable" rants which have seemed even more carried away than usual, I've come to the conclusion that their may be some issues you need to deal with and stop using your quest in Brazil as some sort of catharsis.

I don't know much about psychology/psychiatry and ordinarily think little of it (I can make the philosophical arguments if you really want), but I know they can sometimes offer "help" which seems, on occassion, to make a difference to those who receive it.

Think it through. I know I've been teasing you about IR655 ... perhaps I shouldn't have done so. Perhaps it cuts too deep. If that's the case, then I apologise; and suggest that you find other ways of dealing with it other than what you've been doing.
...
written by A Brazilian, October 24, 2010
You try to send people to some video about identity. A video!!! Just read up on basic psychology. Most adult fears are set by age 12. And it is when children are around 5 thru 12 that they search their society for images that reflect themselves. When they don't exist,they try to assume the images of that which society deems beautiful and respectable.


If you had watched the video then you would know that it is about much more.

Identities don't exist in reality, they are fabricated. They can't be found in the atoms that compose matter, nor in mathematical equations, nor in biological data. Every individual is an individual and not a label.

Identities are inventions created by those with some power, the masters, for those that do no have power to obey, the slaves.

An individual is not a master nor a slave.

Freedom is a heavy burden for some, that's why some choose to surrender their will to a collective and then become a slave of someone else's will.

Think about it. African-Americans are slaves. All your identity politics in the end is just another lever to control the population.
The lights are on...the baratas chegam!
written by adrianerik, October 25, 2010
Look who surfaces.

More ad hominims, Brazuca? Go back to sleep.

A Brazilian - theory and reality are two different things.

1) Anaswer my questions! They are very simple. And in answering them you will give a better indication of how much you have been 'socialized' and spoon fed by Brazil's society and how little you speak your own thoughts.

I'm curious to see if your 'worldview' is your 'individual-view' or (just by coincidence) that of others and your are just a papaguaio. So..."mixed-race" and "racism". In under 25 words.

2) I have followed YOUR posts for awhile and it's clear that, in world where white supremacy has infected societies from China to Arabia to India to Africa to the Americas, that you have an inability to identify and criticize the white supremacist creation of 'identity' in this world. And the subsequent manifestation of this white supremacist identity in people who aren't 'white'. Case in point, Brazuca's (as per his words) Tutsis in Central Africa, who thought that their narrow noses and sharp features made them superior to a fellow peoples with whom they lived harmoniously, sharing the same religion and culture for thousands of years.

Then, all of a sudden, with Belgium and German help...these Africans became 'white'. Then all hell broke loose.

So, my other question: Do you believe that a white supremacist 'identity' exists in Brazil?

Simple! Answer it! Nothing deep or philosophical! There seems to be a certain mental fear that you have, a mental no-man's land that, if entered, might turn your world topsy-turvy.

In other posts, I've already asked you to point out a period, any period, in European history, where INDIVIDUALS were the primary engine of that society. Any glimpse at Urban Studies is a study of group identity. It's a nice discussion point over a glass of red wine whether these identities are 'real' or not. It's quite another thing to say that Brazil represents the anti-thesis of this identity thing or whether there is just a rearrangement of the associative groupings.

Confront it!

tchau-tchau
I tried, mate ...
written by Brazuca, October 25, 2010
... I tried. Isn't the biggest challenge facing alcoholics admitting that they have a problem in the first place? Take the step, man. Or, if it makes you feel any better -- take the step, brother.

Case in point, Brazuca's (as per his words) Tutsis in Central Africa, who thought that their narrow noses and sharp features made them superior to a fellow peoples with whom they lived harmoniously, sharing the same religion and culture for thousands of years.


The Tutsis believed they were superior to everybody! The King would pick up Belgian colonial administrators and give them a slap across the face for their impudence. The Europeans racialized Hutu, Tutsi and Twa, which had previously been socio-economic terms, such that any ambitious Hutu or Tutsi could rise in social rank to be Tutsi, and Tutsi who lost favor or wealth or whatever could descend socially and become Hutu. But once these categories are racialized, they become immutable and solidified in "blood". This can cause problems; and indeed did.

And here you are trying to racialize the Brazilians!
atlantic slave trade
written by asp, October 25, 2010
a brazilian , since you are from brazil, your opinion about brazil is important , exactly because it gives an insight as to one opinion from someone raised in brazil (i asume).

after all, if you are discussing racisim in the usa, a white cracker ku klux klanner's opinion is extremly important to understand a certain type of mind set about that subject, not that you represent that point of veiw in brazil,i want to emphasis that, but, you definitly represent a certain mind set in brazil , and it is definitly not the universal brazilian opinion. you are not the representative of the brazilian people or their spokesperson.of course there are other brazilians that think like you.

i dont know what your background, or physical apearance is. only things you have mentioned about some of your work experiance and the fact you have a certain command of english which implies some kind o education.

i gather you have spent some time in the usa, and certainly have a right to make observations about the racial dynamic there. but, , to me , your opinion reminds me ( im saying reminds me , not that it is fact) of the immigrants who came to the usa and immediatly adopted the racist tones of the white people who are more racist in the usa. whether that is your intention or not, i have to say, some of the things you have said about black americans would be considered hostile (and im not talking about any cyber personal stuff you have said to adrian as you guys battle back and forth).

as someone who lives there, you have as much right to your observations and opinions as me and adrian (and brazuca) have a right to have our observations and opinions about brazil, living there now.

but , there are the opinion parts and then there are the factual parts.all the mind manipulation you are talking about is coming from your opinion . i see very little convincing factual evidence.the cia ? god, who trusts them anywhere, they have botched things up and down . if there is some deep seated small cadre of powerful people orchestrating secretly huge amounts of mind control ( i mean far and above regular media hype) you are going to have to do better than that to proove your point that it exists.

as far as brazil, i really dont know how much contact you have had with black comunities in brazil , but, adrian has had contact, and granted he is seeing brazil from an outsiders point of veiw, that still doesnt prevent him from giving some very keen insights on how people are feeling from those comunities, and , how certain dynamics are played out. of course he has his own personal opinion about that, but, even as a brazilian, you are giving your personal opinion.

brazuca , of course your witty sarcasm are so funny, but, many things you have tried to push off as fact have been refuted up and down, like you implied there is no racism and i brought in two reports of neo nazi attacks in differant places in brazil, and, paulo really demonstated superior knowledge of rio and the black comunities, as well as adrian is working with people in black communities in brazil. you have lived only a breif time in brazil, and, i can recognise your emotional affinity with this country and desire to make your points how it shouldnt be manipulated by outsiders.and i recognise your hostility to militant black americans (as well as a brazilian's hostility).i just find so much i dont agree with you and how little it adds up to my perceptions of what is going on in brazil as far as the racial dynamic plays out.

what i just dont get from both of you , is some kind of acknowledgement of how much the atlantic slave trade has impacted both the usa and brazil.how it has severe effects on both fabrics of these countries.

what i will say is this, brazil and the united states have a whole lot they could learn from each other about these issues.they are both a long long way from any kind of desirable solution to the atlantic slave trade legacy both countries share, and , both countries are suffering the consequences of not really confronting the realities that this atlantic slave trade has wrought.

if you all cant address that , with the obvious daily reminders in the news that there is an underworld, and, sub economy being created that affects our lives, its hard to take some of these opinions seriously
...
written by asp, October 25, 2010
"You wouldn't believe the number of friends I have who say "I know it's hard to believe but I'm not really into white men, like so many of my friends are."

And ASP, I don't think that black women turn to white men because they have been brutalized by their 'black' boyfriends. What of the tens of thousands of white women who have been brutalized by their white boyfriends. Do we see this trend towards "I'm ONLY going to find a black man!" Or don't white men brutalize women..."

i never would presume, adrian , that all black brazilian women hooking up with white men are doing it because of brutalising black boyfreinds . what i can say is that i know of many cases where that is a fact. and, not just brutalising, but also abandonment (not meaning they go hand in hand).and all that does happen to all races and sexes and the smart person will keep their options open

i never get that brazilian black women in general hold white men over black men ( looks like you have black brazilian women saying they arnt into white men).i get that they dont have hang ups about hooking up with white men, or men of varous shades and colors ,and many black american females do, and maybe for good reasons, a lot of white american men are racist dolts.

of course i agree with the media white wash affects many people in general. the media hype factor is geared to all of us to feel bad about what we look like, what we dont have , and how we smell bad...and the white wash is very prevalant, but, if you look deeper, the same message is coming to all of us . i just think black brazilian women can see through a lot of that, the same way i can , and dont agree with most of their beauty standards thrown out to get us to buy a product or look a certain way. black males , especialy artists or atheletes get white wonen swarming all over them. i saw on tv, a black artist put in a night club to test his fidelity, and, he knew it was being filmed, and white women were swarming over him.i beleive many white women in abusive or dumb relationships would like to hook up with a good black man...or any kind of man...paulo verified that white married women come on to him all the time.

this type of thing works both ways and with all sexes.as well as i agree that there are people who will develope inferior complexes about it...but just as many dont.

of course there are also power issues involved and actual underlying messages to keep groups of people down , in both countries

power , and the people in power, has always been that way , if it wasnt skin color, it was religion or nationality , or something
Uma Gota de Sangue
written by Brazuca, October 26, 2010
Ninety percent of Brazil's population is "black"! At least if we take the American definition of "black" and "white" as normative:

http://www.youtube.com/user/RTAmerica

That's the Executive Editor of the Black Agenda Report, by the way.

Uma gota de Sangue. That's how powerful "black" blood is -- it's that concentrated! Just one drop is so, so powerful!

The question is, Why?
bla hahahahahahahahahahhahahahah
written by asp, October 26, 2010
hahahahah

oh man , brazuca, i get your sarcasm you witty rascal you !!!! blahhahahah

i mean, what an artful srcastic move after bringing in a brazilian movement that is insistant on being labeled mestiça or cabocolo, as they have every right to define themselves as they want to, you sarcasticly pretend there is something wrong with this individual defining himself as black, as he should have the right to....

god , i totaly get you now...

i mean after all, this individual could fade into new york life and could pass for a number of ethnic mixes there: italian, jewish, middle eastarn,puerto rican, dominican ,etc, and never be accounted for what ever his mix is, but, he chose to identify himself as black..as he has every right to...like the brazilian mestico group you so kindly pointed out for us

not that there isnt racism in new york, there is, but, every body hates every body there...

you card you, what sarcasm blahahahahaha
The Point???
written by adrianerik, October 26, 2010
So...let me understand this...African Americans are this multi-hued 'race' that really does not get hung up into degradations of color but has an umbrella of hues from Vanessa Williams to Beyonce to Jill Scott to Wesley Snipes and does not limit any intellectual, life achievement potentials of its various hues.

However, it excludes those whites.

And Brazil is this multi-hued (what A Brazilian calls 'mixed race) society where no limits are placed upon its various hues.

However, it excludes pretos and--whether they want to admit it or not---a large number of pardos who find themselves outside of the sacred circle of "We-ness". As well as a large number of just moral, fair-minded Brazilians who dare suggest that this inverted racism is exactly that...racism.

Two societies...two offsprings of racism. Two cripples.

The unsaid assumptions...and racism...of those who so loudly hurl their spittle against the "one drop rule" is that so many people were prohibited from entering "the glory of white paradise."

In that, the Jim Crow white racists who developed the absurdism shot themselves in the foot. They allowed an African American "ethnic" group to develop with the best of the "colored" peoples.

And they proved that a white paradise never existed in the first place. Who knows, Brazuca, maybe the "one drop rule" was God's joke to racially isolate a specific white society and make their racist society the world's joke. (I actually heard that in one of the largest mostly white conservative christian conferences in America).

Go figure.

Hmmmm...maybe the so-called 'mixed race' societies were allowed to prove the same point. After all, 'brown' (mixed-race) societies like the Dominican Republic and Venezuela are some of the most viciously racist societies on Earth. The browns against the blacks. There was a sociologist on the quasi-defunct site Interracial Voice who said that the "browns" would present a problem for the "blacks". (he's originally from the Dominican Republic).

Racist societies must treat it like we treat a bad tooth. You can't brush it away with teeth lighteners. You need a root canal. You must pull out the venom that feeds racist images. You have to separate Constantines usurping of the Christian gospel in 325 and separate the European political development and image control of the church from original books of the bible. You have to challenge European 'memory' of the destruction of world civilizations and insert the memories of those peoples who were 'discovered, then destroyed'. You have to develop a society where all of the diverse communities (yes, even Germany has diversity among their mostly white society) have the resources to manifest the beauty of their various communities, the beauty of their dances, the beauty of their musics, the beauty of their men and women and not be mind-f**ked by oligarchy control of the media, dominated by 12 or 13 white men.

Maybe that's what God wants. Who knows.
Japas ought to be on the top of your to-do list
written by Brazuca, October 26, 2010
But the worst "excluders", proportionately speaking, are the japas. They're the worst offenders! They're the ne plus ultra of greedy, selfish, racist exclusion. They make the bem-brancos look positively inclusive in comparison.

So why do the worst offenders receive a free pass from you rather than your focussed effort as the most egregious example of racist exclusion in Brazil? I mean, how can 1% of the population take up to 20% of positions at the most prestigious university in Sao Paolo FOR RACIST REASONS and yet get a free pass from our anti-racist campaigner in Bahia?! Rather than in Salvador you should be taking on the japas in Sao Paulo, man! Nobody -- and I mean, NOBODY -- beats the japas in Brazil in terms of racism. The facts are there for everybody to see -- you can't argue with them. The worst cases of racism in Brazil can be seen in the University of Sao Paolo at the hands of the most racist of Brazilians, the japas.
sorry , brazuca, your other sarcasm was so much better...
written by asp, October 26, 2010
...this "jappa"thing or yours just falls flat....

excellent point here, adrian :

"You have to develop a society where all of the diverse communities ..... have the resources to manifest the beauty of their various communities, the beauty of their dances, the beauty of their musics, the beauty of their men and women and not be mind-f**ked by oligarchy control of the media, dominated by 12 or 13 white men."

id sure like to see lots more "afro brasileira " dance on the media, they show more tango ...only 7 days a year does afro brazilian dance get a shot

i really am mind boggled at any balking at terms like "afro brasileiro"...

in the south, lots and lots of brazilians describe themselves as 'alemao", "italiano", and "acoriano". its obvious they mean "germano brazilian", "italian brazilian" etc. but , when peope might want to describe a culture as "cultura afro brasileiro", its actualy met with defensiveness.

Adrianerik
written by A Brazilian, October 27, 2010
You seem to want to flood this page. Stop using rethoric and start using reason.

Identities, along with other concepts from your quack-science, aren't real. They aren't physical, nor mathematical, nor can be proven like in physics or chemistry.

They don't exist, except in some people's minds. They are just ideas. And as such they can be changed by to the individuals will.

If they are just ideas then it is just a matter of changing them. That's how you end racism, and not by perpetuating that stupid belief through generations.

All you can hope is convince a sufficient number of fools in order to keep your scam going.

And that's the difference between African-Americans and free men. Between you and I.

We have power because we create our reality and choose to apply our minds to more productive tasks. You are only a victim who receives the "identity template" with rules you have to obey.

We do what we want, you do as you are told.
...
written by A Brazilian, October 27, 2010
Does a thought that wasn't thought by anyone exist? Where does it go when nobody is thinking it?

If an idea is not hosted in someone's mind, can it exist on its own?

Do individuals have the power to change their focus to other ideas?

If ideas can't survive on their own, because they aren't real, and people can change their focus, then can people end with certain ideas by choosing others instead?

That's individual power.
Just simple questions!
written by adrianerik, October 27, 2010
Can you then think for yourself, Mr INDIVIDUAL!

Simply answer the questions!

Unfortunately, Mr Individual, you are using words and terms that belong to OTHER people. They don't belong to you. Nor can you define them anyway that you want to.

So-called 'free-thinking individuals' who cannot accept the regime and basis of intellectual thought are called something else...idiots.

Those who make up the social tautology of their own society, regardless of the contradictions, and call it progress.

Let's get on the same basis of definitions, Mr Individual...then we can talk!

Get it? Got it! Good!
...
written by A Brazilian, October 27, 2010
Adrianerik, the answer was crystal clear for those who can think.

You are the one who can't explain your own thoughts and how they work. If there's no physical reality to speak of, nor logical or mathematical then how can it exist without the individuals will?

...
written by adrianerik, October 27, 2010
Not trying to be deep here, bro! I ain't deep. We're not talking the language of mathematics or physical reality. Those realities define themselves. Humans can only partly interpret what exists.

But social 'realities' is problematic, isn't it, bro?

They aren't self-defining. Therefore, my 'hero' might be your 'villain'. Your 'beauty' might be my 'ugliness'.

So, we need to define things...bro!

By the way, I'm not trying to convince YOU of anything. You just help to line up the target.
Are American definitions normative? The cunning of imperialist reasoning, eh?
written by Brazuca, October 27, 2010
So, we need to define things...bro!

Does one drop of "black" blood make you "black"?

Does one drop of "white" blood make you "white"?

Does hypodescent apply to Brazil? If so, in what direction -- one drop of "white" blood making you "white", or one drop of "black" blood making you "black", or one drop of "Indian" blood making you Indian? Which way does Brazilian hypodescent flow? Or don't Brazilians bother with this hypodescent business?
...
written by adrianerik, October 27, 2010
Are we talking 'race' or 'ethnicity', Mr Individual Brazilian.

Oh, you're not he! Someone else is speaking for you?

Not very individualistic, are we, Mr Individual.

Does one drop of blood make you Jewish?
Does one drop of blood make you Tutsi? (check out the discussion on Paul Kagame's site on this very same issue on Facebook).
Does one drop of blood make you a Boer? An Afrikaner?

Are we talking 'race' or are we talking 'ethnicity'?

Does one drop of blood make you a Colored Person?

The answer to your last question. Yes! Brazil still believes in this hypodescent.

You are socialized into a society. The superficialities of socialization (eating feijao and wearing white on New Year's Eve) does not overshadow the dominant worldview of that socialization process. You know that yourself in the Tutsi/Hutu catastrophe. There, an entire religion and culture was shared by one people. And then a dominant white worldview was introduced and accepted by the population. Both Hutu and Tutsi.

The issue in Brazil is "what are you"?

A Brazilian wants to say that the 'question' does not exist. That each Brazilian is an 'individual'. I assume that means with individual worldviews. Individual systems of beauty. A country of 200 million 'beautiful' because every 'individual' looks into their own "non-socialized" mirror and only sees themselves compared with themselves.

Do you believe that?

Well, let's put that into the Book of Guinness. Next to the Bearded Women and Sword swallowers.

There was a long discussion on the Brazil forum some years ago about the reductionist and superficial descriptions Brazilians used to describe themselves: football, beer, praia, samba. I believe that the question was initiated by your good buddy...Dr Macunaima.

As long as life stays to this reductionist level, you tourists will only see this 'united' Brazil. Black and white in the bar, yelling their heads off over Vasco ou Fla ou Vitoria. I remember a good buddy...a ex-patriate American saying "I don't want this African American s**t in Brazil. This is the only place where I can have a beer with a black guy and not talk race."

Wonderful! That's really nice.

But, when the bar closes and this superficiality of life ends. And everyone returns to their hovels where their mirrors don't reflect their 'individual' selves but crushed spirits by a society into which they were socialized but don't fit. They make do, if they're cute and pretty (another level of objectified superficiality). Or if they kick a ball...another level of superficiality.



So...
written by Brazuca, October 27, 2010
...you're gonna start with the japas. The worst offenders by a country mile.

Right?

If you don't start with the WORST offenders, what are we left to think of your priorities? Are you simply a person with a lot of time to waste when you leave completely ignore the MOST RACIST Brazilians by a country mile?

Why do you leave the worst offenders untouched and focus your attention instead on the also-runs trailing back a very distant second?

Get your priorities right! WORST OFFENDERS FIRST!
...
written by Brazuca, October 27, 2010
Does one drop of blood make you Tutsi?


"Tutsi" is a socio-economic classification. Evidently those having this debate are infected with your type of racist thinking.

While we're at it, does pardo exist? If so, doesn't this category nullify the one-drop hypodescent of the United States (at least when applied to Brazil) since a pardo is neither one-drop "white" or one-drop "black"?
Adrianerik
written by A Brazilian, October 29, 2010
So, we need to define things...bro!


Do we? That's the problem with quack science. It is just wishful thinking.
...
written by A Brazilian, October 29, 2010
A Brazilian wants to say that the 'question' does not exist. That each Brazilian is an 'individual'. I assume that means with individual worldviews. Individual systems of beauty. A country of 200 million 'beautiful' because every 'individual' looks into their own "non-socialized" mirror and only sees themselves compared with themselves.

Do you believe that?


There's nothing to be believed there. That's easily provable by the fact that each individual is an independent biological entity, separate from all others.

But, when the bar closes and this superficiality of life ends. And everyone returns to their hovels where their mirrors don't reflect their 'individual' selves but crushed spirits by a society into which they were socialized but don't fit. They make do, if they're cute and pretty (another level of objectified superficiality). Or if they kick a ball...another level of superficiality.


What? "Objectified superficiality]" is a good one! Haha

It is like you hate the truth, and being objective is somehow bad.
Sigh!!!!
written by adrianerik, October 30, 2010
@ A Brazilian

I'll do it again!

Sighhhhh!

We're mixing biology and sociology.

Have you read the Foundation Trilogy by Isaac Assimov? Among the tens of thousands of societies on other planets he painted a picture of a truly 'individual' society. People similar to America's "Mountain Men". Now, those were some individuals. If they could hear a neighbor's gun, they were too close too each other.

Unfortunately, from what I've seen, the 'individual' amoebas in Brazil, of any color, are painfully tribal in their imitation of the values, ambitions...and biases they have swallowed from the society whose umbilical cord is attached to their belly.

@Brazuca

"Nullify?" What are we playing here...a social video game?

In actuality, I would say that the two societies "complement" each other. Two half images...mirror images...forming one whole...opposite to each other yet forming one reality.
Regarding the Japanese
written by adrianerik, October 30, 2010
We've already gone around on the merry-go-round on this one.

It's nice to hold to a position...GIVEN MORE FACTS. Anything else is being quite anal!

I think that a solution for 'pretos' in Brazil is to be MORE like the Japanese in Brazil.

Do you really know what that means. I won't waste time here. Listen, why don't you read some studies by Adriana Capuano de Oliveira done on the history of Japanese in Brazil. She's out of Unicamp, the prestigious university just outside of Sao Paulo.

Also, study up on the Japanese community in Liberdade, Sao Paulo and the recent celebrations by the Japanese community of the 100th anniversary of their arrival in Brazil. There's also a study on the 300,000+ Japanese born in Brazil who went back to Japan because of the difficulties of getting rid of those 'nasty Asian' features and being fully accepted into Brazil's 'racial democracy'. And the difficulties of these Japanese-Brazilians being accepted into Japan's very phenotypically prejudiced society. (and you hold Japanese culture in high regards...do you not, Mr. Brazuca?)

Don't take my word for it. Just do a teeny weeny itsy bitsy bit of research besides the percentage of Japanese at the universities. Understand the context of the Japanese in Brazil.

And then be very careful if you suggest that black brazilians, in order to achieve the same successes of the Japanese, should also create the same societal context these children come out of.

Because then, I would expect you to come to Salvador, put on an Olodum outfit and drum your heart out in Pelourinho, knowing that the self-esteem and educational achievements will follow.

Let's start you education with this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruBWKGgl9r8
Drums maketh the racist
written by Brazuca, October 30, 2010
So let me get this straight. The japas became the most racist of Brazilians because they kept to beating the drums they'd brought over from Japan -- is that it? And for the "Afro-Brazilians" to become as racist as the japas, they ought to beat their Olodum drums with just as much diligence and fervor? That way, everybody will be equally racist and exclusionary and everything will thereby be fixed.

You're becoming easier to understand with each passing day.smilies/cheesy.gif
What planet?
written by adrianerik, October 31, 2010
You are in your own world, Mister Brazuca. It's better that you look into a mirror and argue with yourself.

Like A Brazilian...define your terms.

In your mind, a teenage black girl who marvels at her dark skin in the mirror and says "Go ahead girl, you look good" is now a 'racist'.

It was the Brazilian Japanese male in the video who said "We are more Japanese than they are in Japan."

Why don't you go fuss with him! Call it research.

I don't have time for DoubleSpeak, sir. We call it Bulls**t.
Equality in racism
written by Brazuca, October 31, 2010
Using your own logic, the japas ought to be considered the most racist of Brazilians, given their over-representation in the most prestigious university in South America. Racism, as we all ought to know by now, is the only explanation for such phenomena. There couldn't be any other explanation.

Given this fact, why do you ignore the japas, the most racist Brazilians of all, while you claim at the same time to be a campaigner against racism?!

So you ascribe the success of the japas being so utterly racist in Brazil to their being more Japanese than the Japanese themselves. And you recommend that the "Afro-Brazilians" ought to emulate them in being successful racists.

And the "Afro-Brazilians" ought to endeavor to be supremely racist by beating loudly on their Olodum drums.

Then everything will be perfect.

Where would Brazil be without you?
?
written by adrianerik, October 31, 2010
? smilies/shocked.gif ?

People should not let the rejection by another people affect their self-esteem.

People should see a beautiful creation when they look into the mirror as opposed to what they see on television.

Individuals do not socialize themselves...that is an oxymoron. They swallow the worldview of the society around them (particularly from birth through 12years old when character is formed and fears are incubated and imbedded)

They should not swallow social poison.

(You are backing yourself into a corner, did you know that? For years, you have championed the German and Japanese societies and now, when an example surfaces of Japanese maintaining that 'covenant' so-called advantage, but in another society, you can't handle that.)

You have a paradoxical situation: you champion this so-called "mixed race" democracy with "few blemishes" yet you champion these Japanese representatives of a 'covenant' society who, for the most part, are not examples of this racial blending. The numbers (Japanese inter-mixture) hovers around 28%.

So stop your childish foot-stomping and "vain repetitions".

Explain.
Balkanization, as per the Ford Foundation directive
written by Brazuca, October 31, 2010
Balkanization, eh? Precisely what the Ford Foundation -- and the sponsors behind them -- want for Brazil, so that a powerful South American country doesn't rise that may be outside of their control.

The Roma all over Europe represent what you would call a "covenant" society, stubbornly clinging to their particular ways and their particular "identity", regardless of whatever country they may be inhabiting. No doubt their "intermarriage" rates are very low. And yet, for some incomprehensible reason, they're not as racist as the Japanese are in Brazil. Why's that?

Regarding my "championing" of the Japanese and Germans, what I'm saying is that if you want Japanese or German results, then you have to emulate German or Japanese behaviour. In other words, I am making a causal relationship between such qualities as collective discipline, rigorous education, commitment to quality workmanship, etc., and the things and reputation Germans and Japanese are so well known for. I merely use the Germans and Japanese as exemplars of certain qualities some people may be seeking to emulate -- such as being over-represented in universities and so forth.

But what you seem to be arguing in the case of Brazil is that the japas aren't being racist in, for example, being over-represented in USP but are rather simply being "covenant" (or whatever) and benefiting from the results. If this is the case with the japas in Brazil, couldn't it be the same with the so-called "whites" in Brazil whom you're constantly inveighing against for their "racism"? Why, in the case of the japas, is it "covenanting", while with the "whites" it's racism? Maybe the "whites" in Brazil all this time have simply been endeavoring to be as "covenanting" as the japas, never realizing their success but doing better than the so-called "Afro-Brazilians" in "covenanting".

So are the "whites" in Brazil "covenantors" or racists? How do you make the distinction between a "covenantor" and a racist?
You tell me!
written by adrianerik, October 31, 2010
Those are your arguments, your terms. From the Brazil forum. I don't believe in it.

Listen, why don't you go to sleep. You're tired.
The Black Knight
written by Brazuca, October 31, 2010
Ha-ha, you're stuck! Though unlike the Black Knight, with your arms and legs chopped off and only left with your torso, I think even YOU realize you're finished.

You've never been rationale. All it needed was for you to be shown this in a way even you, in your jihad against reason and logic, couldn't wiggle out of. Hence the agumentum ad hominem, in this case in the form of a reductio ad absurdum.

This Black Knight, with only his torso left, finally concedes. Tetelestai!
im a testimony to the fact that.....
written by asp, October 31, 2010
brazuca, you dont make any sence...

you cant create a convoluted , convex complexity , leave peoples heads shaking saying "what the f**k is that ?", and , do a victory dance whoop as though you have prevailed.....

Asp
written by A Brazilian, November 02, 2010
Individuals do not socialize themselves...that is an oxymoron. They swallow the worldview of the society around them (particularly from birth through 12years old when character is formed and fears are incubated and imbedded)


Those who "swallow" what society says (or anyone since you are in the minority, society isn't saying anything in this case) aren't individuals.

Individuals think for themselves and choose for themselves. They are independent.

You seem to think that an individual is some kind of human trait. Some humans are individuals, but many are not.

African-American aren't individuals, they are a collective of mindless zombies. At least most of them are like that. I still have to find one African-American who isn't racist.
im not sure, a brazilian......
written by asp, November 02, 2010
if you meant to make a point to me about that statement, or if you think i made that statement, which i didnt, but, ill try to address it.

african americans suffered brutal racism .ku klux klan style persecution and ridiculas jim crow laws, and, blatent government and real estate driven, white flight and hard prejudice in the north.what you see in most african americans , is a justifiable defence against an institutional racism (even with laws on the books) and a social racism, that frequently raises its ugly head to remind them that they are still in a racialy discriminating world.

their philosophy has been hammered out into a steely defence , out of hard, unending, struggle

now, i would say, that their particular defence, is not what would work in brazil and as a matter of fact , it has left the usa in an ugly stalemate of racial devide as wide as a 10 lane highway you could drive 10 mac trucks through. not what i would call the best situation posible . but, the gains for african americans are extremly visible and desirable.

where i feel brazil needs to conront racism and discrimination on its own terms, i find people trying to say that racism doesnt exist in brazil, or that there are no ramifications from the atlantic slave trade, ridicualas.

denying terms like "cultura afro brasileiro", while celibrating october fest and german culture in the south , is hypocritical. people proudly refer to themselves in the south as "german", "italian", or "acorian", yet the thought that someone could refer to themselves as "afrobrasileiro", is met with hard defensiveness as thought it is just wrong.

where we can agree that brazil should deal with its problems on its own terms, we have big differances about whether racism exists at all. and, i get, and , especialy from brazilians themselves, in diolougue, laws, and blatent day to day obvious implications , like tv, that racism and ramifications of the atlantic slave trade, do exist in brazil.
THE AMERICAN SYSTEM
written by Harvey, February 18, 2011
THE AMERICAN SYSTEM

In America many institution and laws establish under “Racial Rule” are not serving America today! Be it the uneven economic social disrespect and divide! Or the fact “Racial Rule” ruled the decision of white in authority! White Hatred and divide and white greed discrimination have dishonor many American institution and laws! Today many white commentator pundit reporters historian DO NOT acknowledge that fact nor report on it’s effect. 13 trillion dollars debt create under the Bush administration is never acknowledge today by pundits! The war in Iraq that was started for nothing! Took the lives of 4,400 and counting American troops under Bush for nothing not acknowledge! Today there is more attacking President Obama healthcare reform plan. That benefit and save American lives! Then the fact that American citizen are dead for nothing in Iraq at the hand of the Bush administration! The white control media in America. Has become nothing more then spreaders of propaganda and hate and lies and attacking minorities, Especially black Americans!
Turning the clocks back
written by Harvey, February 24, 2011
OUTRAGEOUS

Protecting white cops when there are clear abuse of American citizen is part of life for American citizen in America! Especially black Americans citizen! Putting up with TV judges disrespect of American litigant with name calling and yelling! Has become a part of American justice system! The show COPS shows many incident of abuse of American citizen. No one say NOTHING! So it becomes part of our American justice system! But now it’s white coaches that are caught on video knocking a student to the ground. This white coach gets a pass! Outrageous and pure sick to agree that the white coach gets a pass to assault a student! Stupid! Where is the white leadership in America? Assault is assault is assault! To put your hand on another person is WRONG! It does not matter if it is sports! The video shows the team running a rebounding drill and O’Connor screaming at Kravchuk. The coach then knock his player to the ground and kick him while he is down. As Kravchuk walked away bleeding, O’Connor is shown cursing at him.
“Get the f**k outta here. Get the f**k outta here,” he screamed as he kicked Kravchuk out of practice. Kravchuk injured his wrist and has not been able to play with the team.
“It was totally out of line for my coach to do,” Kravchuk said. “We were just doing a drill and the next thing I know, I was on the floor.” This is sick! Where is the white leadership speaking out against white on white crime? Or abuse of authority? Fox 29 New is reporting that a white doctor said it’s OK for underage teens to drink alcohol at home! What a moron what a idiot! But he is white and criticism toward white American morality is non-in-void! This sick stupid doctor are telling people to break the law OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!

WHITE PEOPLE NEED TO BE LEADERS
written by Harvey, March 13, 2011
WHITE PEOPLE NEED TO BE LEADERS

Let me start by saying that whites are the majority in America. With that static whites make many if not all the decision in America. Many times in America’s history whites have voted against America and Americans! Some whites have voted base on racist mentality. That has cause the country to be last in many area! Whites have voted base on greed that has cause this country to be financially last in many area! Whites have seen evil in other country but not seen the same evil in America! That has led to needless deaths of American troops of all races! It is outrageous and dangerous and irresponsible for Republican and white Sunday News pundits encouraging war against Libya! The citizen of Libya allow Garddifi to remain in power for decades! They need to be the first to get themselves out of their situation without Americans fighting and dying! Just as this country allow former President G.W. Bush to start a war in Iraq. Causing the needless death of American military! It took a change of President to stop the stupidity! America CAN NOT continue to start wars! (WE ARE NOT WORLD POLICE)!!! Today we are fighting two wars. Trying to end the Iraq war it is just sick to promote more war! Many of these people promoting war are too old to fight these wars! Their children will not fight and die in these wars! Republicans have made a mess of America and the lack of white leadership continue to allow them to! Both left and right wing white pundits are calling President Obama weak! Just because he won’t quickly respond with military force against Libya! America needs white leadership that is responsible and not thinking hate and divide and war!
...
written by Marina, March 15, 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icSbpCa5hJ0

This is how White Brazilian treat Black people in 2011
Interesting Article
written by Patricia Kayden, March 22, 2011
My cousin who now lives in Kenya (married to a Kenyan guy) told me that many middle class Kenyans have maids. These maids are not part of the family, but appear to be treated well.

I would think that throughout the world, including in majority Black African countries, lower class maids service middle/upper class citizenry. Not sure how this is racist -- just classist.

While I probably am middle class, I couldn't afford a live-in maid here in the US. Probably would have to be a millionaire before I could.
...
written by Harvey, March 25, 2011
NOT ALL WHITE PRESIDENT BORN IN AMERICA


Anytime in American history you could pick a time. That white Americans have use racism and hate and divide against America and Americans! This evil has stop America from being the greatest country on earth! From enslaving blacks to cheating blacks with a sharecropping con! From discrimination separate and unequal “Jim Crow“! To not allowing blacks and women to vote! White militant approach taken by white supremacist groups has caused them to be watched closely by law enforcement officials. But allowed to grow with very little problem! Many of these white enforcement institution are ran by whites that feel the same hatred of minorities! That brings me to Donald Trump who has started asking is President Obama a American! He want to see President Obama birth certificate! All 43 white pass Presidents have never been asked to see their birth certificate! BUT!!!!! Martin Van Buren (December 5, 1782 – July 24, 1862) was the eighth President of the United States (1837-1841). Before his presidency, he was the eighth Vice President (1833–1837) and the 10th Secretary of State under Andrew Jackson (1829–1831).
He was a key organizer of the Democratic Party, a dominant figure in the Second Party System, and the FIRST president not of British descent—his family was Dutch. He was the FIRST president to be born an American citizen, his pass 8 predecessors having been born British subjects before the American Revolution. He is also the only president not to have spoken English as his first language, having grown up speaking Dutch, and the first president from New York. Did the ignorance Tea Party and the down right stupid Donald Trump know THAT!!!!

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