What Brazil Can Learn from the US on Race and Education

Baiacu

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:50:54 +0100

Hi, Baiacu. Only now I have come to take a look at this thread again and I am glad that you finally discovered what kind of person Thaddeus is. This was what I had to put up for dozens of comments. He twists what you say, leaves some points unanswered (because he knows they are true), make stupid simplifications and use a lot of name calling. Another common strategy of his is the "appeal to authority" argument where he disregard anything you say just because "he is the authority" and that should be enough for everybody. Other than that he wanted to "win the argument" just by flooding the forum with a lots of gigantic messages with plenty of affirmations not done by me, so he would look "right" in the eyes of the eventual reader that has not kept up with the debate since the beginning. For what it was written I think that he has no other objective than to please his own ego and satisfy his vanity. You can notice he defends no point at all, he just wants to be "the right one" by all means possible. He targets you, his arguments are meant to destroy you, not to show anything wrong about whatever you are saying. Anyway, everything I said are either historical facts (like the indians being primitive) or morally correct. I stand for everything I said here and I continue urging people to pursue a better life, even if it means to adopt values from others. Christianity offers a good basis for it. What Brazil lacks is values. Unfortunately there are plenty of idiots promoting the idea that "all cultures are equally valid" for justifying their lack of discipline and values, which led to their current state of misery. It doesn't matter how loud they scream, the truth won't stop being the truth because of it. They have no option, but facing the truth eventually, even if they hate it. - A Brazilian

Thaddeus

Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:31:39 +0100

[quote]What do not exist are universal values. Or, better, what few universal values apparently do exist certainly have little to do with the Bible. [/quote] This would be true if you don't believe in INTELLIGENT DESIGN. It is what you CHOOSE TO BELIEVE. According to the Bible this is the reason WHY we are in this mess. Everyone having their own INDEPENDENT value systems. >:( "For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.â€ (Benisis 3:5) There is enough evidence to see that this has been a FAILED EXPERIMENT - dnbaiacu

Generalizing

Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:19:00 +0100

[quote]how is it that you can still argue that these folks (i.e. Brazilians in generallized terms) have some continueing "negative thoughts about themselves"? [/quote] I am generalizing very much so. This is the realiity. Same "general" family. Those that consistently and through several generations applied some sound "family values" as you called them ( and if I might add are found in the Bible for Thaddeus) gradually went from doing self-destructive , self-limiting thought patterns and behaviors . Negative behavior comes from negative thoughts. NOT LOVING YOURSELF. It has to be leaarned and practiced and handed down through the generations. Those of my family and friends (Brazil , U.S wherever) that have not made the CHOICE to learn to LOVE themselves,, think positely, behave positively, etc ,. Remain in a state of CHAOS . ie, substance abuse , prostitution, irresponsibility , illiteracy. This all started with some of Abes comments that Thaddeus blasted. Abe made comments obviously based on very general observations. But sadly very generally true. Go to MOST of Salvador. Urban areas in the States.. It doesn't have to be that way. There doesn't have to be broken homes. There doesn't have to be ignorance in personal finances. These are choices based on an initial CHOICE to get knowledge. If you irresponsible, choose to stay illiterate, participate in substance abuse, mismanage your money, how is that NOT HAVING CONSISTENT NEGATIVE THOUGHTS ABOUT YOURSELF. You subconsciously believe that you don't DESERVE better. This is the point. And yes, not just descendants of African slaves are afflcted with this mentality in general , but it appears to be that they are more afflicted with this mentality than their European neighbors in the very same countries. Thie is what ABE observes and comments on. Again , same family group.. different outcomes. A choice.. Learn sound family and personal values ( that just so happen to be found in the worlds most widely distributed book, the Bible) , or don't. The choice will have its' subsequent effects. Nothing wrong with beating drums for fascinated tourists. But make sure this is a career choice that fits your "family planning" or "lack of planning" objectives. Otherwise you and yours will have a more difficult trek through this system that FEEDS ON IGNORANCE. We all know this. Us three. But many many people don't.!!! Again COMMON SENSE ISN'T SO COMMON. [quote]. Do your family / friends there on either side tell you that they hate themselves? Even worse, do they tell you that that's a principle factor in what causes them to act irresponsibly, illegally, enter prostitution, be illiterate, fail, etc.,etc.. Till I here it from them I stand by my view - you're pushing BS that may apply here but not there (and you may be a bit more screwed up than your own self-awareness will allow you to see). [/quote] Simpleton,, "actions speak louder than words". You don't have to tell anyone you hate yourself. It can be evident by how you think , which will result in what you say and how you behave. Anything that is self-destructive to yourself or others (because you do belong to the community at large) is HATING YOURSELF, regardless of what you may have deluded yourself to believe. Since you called me [quote]DN (DarncluelessNortherner) [/quote] What is your posting name again?????? - dnbaiacu

DN (DarncluelessNortherner)

Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:30:06 +0100

"If you are talking about Brazil, you don't have a clue. I have family and friends on both ends of the spectrum in Brazil. Those that have learned to respect themselves , love themselves and achieve. Live productive lives and hold their families together. I also have others that disdain education. Irresponsible as parents , drink excessively and do drugs. You know what the difference between the two groups are,?, a VALUE system." I think you have a couple of differnent issues. Your statement has proven quite clearly the one I was speaking of. Considering both ends of the spectrum in your family / friends that you speak of, and finding it logical, or at least a highly likely a good bet to assume, (or maybe I'm just clarvoiant) that both the good and the bad sides in your group of Brazilian family / friends have afro heredity factors which are pretty much the same, how is it that you can still argue that these folks (i.e. Brazilians in generallized terms) have some continueing "negative thoughts about themselves"? That's the BS I have never seen in the people I've gotten to know there. Are you insinuating that those in your family / friends group that have succeeded, have family VALUES (that I think we all agree are good ones), respect themselves etc., etc. are the ones that have this corrollary / consistency with their Afro-american equivalents, or that the beer drinking / drug using / irresponsible parenting side of your family / friends group are the ones that are like Afro-americans in that regard, or is it both?? It's absolutely gastly to think you believe that Brazilians are biased mentally / afflicted with such BS thoughts. Do your family / friends there on either side tell you that they hate themselves? Even worse, do they tell you that that's a principle factor in what causes them to act irresponsibly, illegally, enter prostitution, be illiterate, fail, etc.,etc.. Till I here it from them I stand by my view - you're pushing BS that may apply here but not there (and you may be a bit more screwed up than your own self-awareness will allow you to see). - Simpleton

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Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:14:29 +0100

DN, sure values exists. That never was an issue. What do not exist are universal values. Or, better, what few universal values apparently do exist certainly have little to do with the Bible. And you're right: I think we've about whipped the meat off of this particular horse's bones... - Thaddeus Blanchette

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Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:08:29 +0100

:) [quote] Values always are. What they are manifestly NOT is universal. [/quote] At least we agree some values exist.. Some .to aspire. That are written , "somewhere" to learn from , IF you CHOOSE to. You are RIGHT they are NOT universal. Just maybe THIS is the whole problem? Imagine a world of Phillipians 4:6,7 and what we know about the Law of Attraction???? [b]PARADISE[/b] ;D - dnbaiacu

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Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:54:52 +0100

[quote] It's ok Thaddeus. It's a CHOICE [/quote] Values always are. What they are manifestly NOT is universal. - Thaddeus Blanchette

Law of Attraction....

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:43:41 +0100

[quote]Do not be misled: God is not one to be mocked. For whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap; 8Â because he who is sowing with a view to his flesh will reap corruption from his flesh, but he who is sowing with a view to the spirit will reap everlasting life from the spirit. [/quote] Galations 6:7,8 [b]Problem causing thought patterns and actions[/b] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20Â idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21Â envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. Galations 5:19 [b]Thinking that promotes and attracts peace and prosperity (relative of course)[/b] [quote]Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well spoken of, whatever virtue there is and whatever praiseworthy thing there is, CONTINUE CONSIDERING THESE THINGS. 9Â The things that YOU learned as well as accepted and heard and saw in connection with me, practice these; and the God of peace will be with you.[/quote] Phillipians 4:6,7 The TRUTH is so SIMPLE It's ok Thaddeus. It's a [b]CHOICE[/b] - dnbaiacu

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Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:19:30 +0100

[quote] That is why in the New Testament with Jesus , principle became the rule and no longer the Mosaic Law. [/quote] Again, that's your opinion. Other people read the EXACT SAME BIBLE and believe differently. Whether or not you are right is completely immaterial to the main point, Dn, which we both know to be true: there are hundreds of radically different interpretations of the Bible. what you see in those words are not the same values someone else sees. [quote] Where do you think all the crime , prostitution and illiteracy is coming from? Something other than BS going on in someones head.????! Get real! [/quote] While no one actually is FORCED to do anything, it's damned sure that things don't just happen simply and only because people will them to happen. Take prostitution, for example. It's a shitty job, but very few people are actually "forced" to do it. However, many people feel that, between chosing the shit that's being a prostitute or between choosing the shit that's being a check-out counter girl in Brazil, they'd rather the second option. I don't see anything wrong with it, personally, that I don't see as wrong with a series of dangerous or unpleasant jobs which people just take with a shrug of their shoulders. So there's the "values" thing again, Dn: you think prostitution is synonymous with "crime"; I happen to think it's more synonymous with being a garbageman or a boxer. - Thaddeus Blanchette

Simpleton

Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:53:55 +0100

If you are talking about Brazil, you don't have a clue. I have family and friends on both ends of the spectrum in Brazil. Those that have learned to respect themselves , love themselves and achieve. Live productive lives and hold their families together. I also have others that disdain education. Irresponsible as parents , drink excessively and do drugs. You know what the difference between the two groups are,?, a VALUE system. I wouldn't expect you to have a clue or understand this. I really don't know who you have been dealing with besides those that would deal with tourists. And I am assuming that's what you have been especially from this statement [quote]but from what I've seen, t'aint no such BS going on in peoples heads down there. [/quote] Where do you think all the crime , prostitution and illiteracy is coming from? Something other than BS going on in someones head.????! Get real! And Yes,, I must be "screwed up", for having responded to this. :'( Let me give you one example.. Just one. Any time someone calls their own God Given hair BAD, because it is not STRAIGHT.. They have an issue with self love. Did you even read the opening article? [quote]research by Sandra Leila de Paul and Simone Loiola de Ferreira powerfully illustrates that children in public schools in Brazil have very negative and stereotypical views of black and dark-skinned children and people (2005). [/quote] I do like a comment by one poster that said, "leave them to figure it out on their own". And you know what? They are going to have to if we wait on "Brazil". And that is ok. Because ultimately it is YOUR responsibility to love yourself. I assume you came a little late in the posting. Because it is hard to see how all this went over your head. If afro-brazilians were really LOVING themselves.. I mean truly loving themselves. We wouldn't even be having this discussion. I am sure you are aware of the various black magazines in the U.S . "Ebony", "Jet", " Essence", "Black Enterprise".. Well the first of its kind in Brazil is "RACA". It is basically about seeing yourself as a person of african descent in a more positive light. But then we have the issue of illiteracy and the ridiculous cost of the magazine so it is only helping very little. But it IS a slow beginning. God knows GLOBO is not doing much. That market is trying to fullfill a desperate need. I am a little discouraged at your comment because all I can see you doing is looking the surfers, the Capoiera shows, Oludum in Pelourihno, and thinking , "Gee I don't see any BS.???" They are HUSTLING , period. And at best , distracting their minds. They are just as interested in having a normal life like everyone else out of the margins of society. And you can trust that running up and down the beach, dancing for tourist and beating drums , is not helping much to make ends meet. Try spending 365 days in their lives for real. Not as a Gringo bystander. It "t'aint" easy. Don't let the sand and sun fool you. Nice posting with all of you .. Peace :) ECCLESIASTES 3:1,7 3 For everything there is an appointed time,......a time to keep quiet. - dnbaiacu

Simpleton

Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:40:12 +0100

[quote]but from what I've seen, t'aint no such BS going on in peoples heads down there. [/quote] Where do you think all the crime , prostitution and illiteracy is coming from? Something other than BS going on in someones head.????! Get real! And Yes,, I must be "screwed up", for having responded to this. :'( Let me give you one example.. Just one. Any time someone calls their own God Given hair BAD, because it is not STRAIGHT.. They have an issue with self love. Did you even read the opening article? [quote]research by Sandra Leila de Paul and Simone Loiola de Ferreira powerfully illustrates that children in public schools in Brazil have very negative and stereotypical views of black and dark-skinned children and people (2005). [/quote] I do like a comment by one poster that said, "leave them to figure it out on their own". And you know what? They are going to have to if we wait on "Brazil". And that is ok. Because ultimately it is YOUR responsibility to love yourself. I assume you came a little late in the posting. Because it is hard to see how all this went over your head. If afro-brazilians were really LOVING themselves.. I mean truly loving themselves. We wouldn't even be having this discussion. I am sure you are aware of the various black magazines in the U.S . "Ebony", "Jet", " Essence", "Black Enterprise".. Well the first of its kind in Brazil is "RACA". It is basically about seeing yourself as a person of african descent in a more positive light. But then we have the issue of illiteracy and the ridiculous cost of the magazine so it is only helping very little. But it IS a slow beginning. God knows GLOBO is not doing much. That market is trying to fullfill a desperate need. I am a little discouraged at your comment because all I can see you doing is looking the surfers, the Capoiera shows, Oludum in Pelourihno, and thinking , "Gee I don't see any BS.???" They are HUSTLING , period. And at best , distracting their minds. They are just as interested in having a normal life like everyone else out of the margins of society. And you can trust that running up and down the beach, dancing for tourist and beating drums , is not helping much to make ends meet. Try spending 365 days in their lives for real. Not as a Gringo bystander. It "t'aint" easy. Don't let the sand and sun fool you. Nice posting with all of you .. ECCLESIASTES 3:1,7 3 For everything there is an appointed time,......a time to keep quiet. Peace - dnbaiacu

Thaddeus

Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:37:27 +0100

[quote]I think that people who take those injunctions seriously need to receive psychological care before THEY do society some irreparable harm. One set of biblical laws: two radically different interpretations of said law's worth as ethical guideposts.[/quote] You are right here Thaddeus. And I am glad you brought that up. That is why in the New Testament with Jesus , principle became the rule and no longer the Mosaic Law. But then we run into the problem of groups running away with "PARTS' of the Bible and this is where all the madness comes in. When all is said and done , individually it is a "spiritual journey". One can choose where they want to stop in their depth of understanding. But it is good to start somewhere. It gets you "thinking" and creating a better personal enviroment for better situations to come your way. - dnbaiacu

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Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:42:38 +0100

[quote]Disobeying and "cursing" (calling down evil upon your mother or father )are two entirely different things.[/quote] Yes, but you said "even remotely like", so I think this qualifies, don't you? Let's be frank and not split hairs, Dn: what the Bible is saying here is that if your snotty-nosed 15 year old brat tells you to go to hell, he deserves to die. Is that what you consider to be a good value? Capital punishment for being a typical teen? This is how we prevent moral decay...? Do you REALLY think that this is a form of capital punishment that's justified by the need to protect society? Or that we need to start offing queers and little goth chicks who play with ouiji boards in order to protect society? Or do you have a more obtuse interpretation of these rather clearly stated biblical injunctions? See, this is the "values" problem right in your face, Dn. You, apparently, seem to think Leviticus has a point whereas I think that people who take those injunctions seriously need to receive psychological care before THEY do society some irreparable harm. One set of biblical laws: two radically different interpretations of said law's worth as ethical guideposts. That is the point: one biblical law, two sets of values coming out of it. There thus isn't any "inequivocal, universal message" in the Bible, DN. QED. - Thaddeus Blanchette

zWatTaFoDi-do

Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:18:15 +0100

"African americans and brazilians continue to hold on to negative thoughts about themselves" Dn, really, you are really really living the truth as you see it. "Because the truth is , we are all screwed up." You may have the knowledge, experience, rights to say both of these in regards to yourself / those you know here which may be limited or not be limited to your locale, but from what I've seen, t'aint no such BS going on in peoples heads down there. - Simpleton

continued

Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:31:46 +0100

You know , we are clearly steering further away from the subject. The point is, we are all animate forms of energy. Protons and electrons like everything else. How we "vibe" is pretty much determined by what's in our head. And obvious , detectable progression can be easily traced back to following basic values and principles as outlined in the ancient book the Bible. Whether or not an individual or culture consciously recognized this is what they were doing or not. What is great is that you CAN choose to recognize it and Capitlize on it even more to your benefit. Afro americans and brazilians are products of generations of systematic and deliberate witholding of knowledge and breaking down of the family unit. Both critical to the types of progress Francis Wardle spoke of. No way a system that lacks Values is going to impart Values to a population that it needs to continue to subvert to oil the machine of capitalism. Fortunately "spiritual laws" are in place to give the vast majority of the human race (?) ( hate using this word) an oppurtunity to navigate through an oppresive system designed by life forms much more powerful than they are. Even better , they don't need to be very "intellectual" to understand and apply these "spiritual laws". Mental concepts that help one to ultize the now popularized "Law of Attaction" to the benefit of the individual or community. The "movers and shakers'" will attract what they are mentally focused on. And if it disregards positive thought patterns like LOVE < JOY > PEACE < LONG-SUFFERING , KINDNESS, GOODNESS , MILDNESS, FAITH , SELF-CONTROL. Suffice to do the MATH and forsee the consequences. It's so funny. Mans affinity to the old story we see in Hollywood time after time. The battle between good and evil. We see it so much we think it's just fiction. (Another Trick) All the while the planet is being "moved and shaked" to destruction. [quote] We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one. [/quote] 1John 5:19 It's so simple. And if the battle is MENTAL , which of course it is. (we are talking about education) the real issue is positive and negative thoughts. African americans and brazilians continue to hold on to negative thoughts about themselves. A by product of the horrors of slavery. You won't get anywhere that way. Obviously the State is not interested in changing that. Why should they be. ? Economic slavery still exists and is needed for Capitalism [quote] African slavery was useful and impacted much of the globe, but that doesn't make it a guide to modern ethics, does it?[/quote] Whether it is "modern" or not doesn't negate its usefullness. It's principles transcend time. And those affected most negatively by slavery can get the most benefit from them. Because it is basically about LOVE of YOURSELF as a HUMAN. It is a book about a GOVERNMENT that will solve mans problems. One of them being this ridiculous RACE issue. It is a book about learning about The CREATOR who is LOVE in whose IMAGE WE HUMANS WERE CREATED. So you learn about operating within your PURPOSE. But what is interesting is that , you have to BELIEVE that.! If you don't , you lose. Your life will be proof of that. If you THINK and ACT negatively you will just continue to feed a negative system. Your only defense IS what you put in your MIND. HOW you think or don't think. Now if you are going to an institution that claims to be teaching you a book , but you as a student aren't READING the book ,,, DUH ,, what do you expect??? This is going on far too much in African communities around the globe and the point is by nature we have a tendency towards the EMOTIONAL aspect of things. No one disputes this. US more than any other group need to think more RATIIONALLY in order have any sort of , ( I don't even know what word to use) If you are not getting a proper education by the system or at least READING and following any book out there on morals and ethics.. YOU ARE LOST. On the other hand Europeans who appear to be so RATIONAL tend to discount anything with a spiritual twist to it. Destroying the planet by not incorporating Values into their SCIENTIFIC and TECHNOLOGICAL generally "secular"efforts. Asians it appears are too busy WORKING THEMSELVES TO DEATH to be able to care less on way or the other. Yes ,,I am jokingly generalizing. But I think my point is clear. There has to be a balance. Because the truth is , we are all screwed up. We weren't MADE to figure it out on our own. Most will see that, too late. [quote]23 I well know, O Lord, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.[/quote] - dnbaiacu

Thaddeus

Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:29:58 +0100

You wrote: [quote]Would you like me to start quoting some of the Bible's Greatest Hits, too? Starting with, say, injunctions to kill your children if they disobey [/quote] You quoted: [quote]20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.[/quote] Disobeying and "cursing" (calling down evil upon your mother or father )are two entirely different things. There can be "disobedience" on the part of a child for a completely VALID reason. And a curse in this situation is a very public ostracism . You're not making a case with that one . Or any of them . There is capital punishment FOR THE BENEFIT of society in many countries. It deters others from thinking they can get away with things. And it keeps the rest of us from having to take care of these types of valueless people. If God were to allow the nation of Isreal to commit every offense you have listed , it wouldn't have been long until they would have "ceased" to be a nation. Moral decay just breaks down societies , period. And especially small ones. A classic CRIPPLED society? BRAZIL! And everyone knows this. And the only thing that is "presently" holding the U.S together is its money. But when that goes, TRUST, all hell will break loose. [quote]And if it [i.e. a feuts] be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.[/quote] Can you PLEASE stop twisting things up. >:( This is how LEVITICUS 27 verse 5 reads [quote]5 And if the age is from five years old up to twenty years old, the estimated value of the male must then become twenty shekels and for the female ten shekels. 6 And if the age is from a month old up to five years old, the estimated value of the male must then become five shekels of silver and for the female the estimated value must be three shekels of silver. [/quote] Nothing of unborn fetuses here . In fact this is what the Bible says: [quote] Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, [/quote] Psalm 139:16 [quote]Has God ever stated that a person would be called to account for injury to an unborn child? Ex. 21:22, 23: â€œIn case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul.â€ (Some translations make it appear that in this law to Israel the crucial matter was what happened to the mother, not to the fetus. The original Hebrew text, however, refers to a fatal accident to either mother or child.) [/quote] :) :) Looks like you need to do more research.. Don't bother though. Under Christ the Mosaic law was made null and void. But I am not going to spend time with all those details. - dnbaiacu

More dribbling

Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:49:03 +0100

[i]the prism of an [b]American[/b] educator [/i] Stupido guess what? Brasil is an "AMERICAN" country also. Stick the Marxist USSA propaganda where it belongs. Don't RUIN Brasil as you have ruined your own country. Chile has neo-nazis wear the uniforms the chicas have big bosoms - Grigorio

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Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:31:02 +0100

I am happy to report, however, that abortion appears to be OK with God as long as it occurs before the first month. After all, in Leviticus 27, we read the following... [quote] And if it [i.e. a feuts] be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. [/quote] A less than a month old fetus is apparently not worth anything, according to God. - Thaddeus Blanchette

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Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:25:51 +0100

[quote] If you can find anything REMOTELY similar to this [injunctions to kill disobedient children in the Bible] PLEASE let us all know. [/quote] OK. How about Leviticus 20, then? One of my personal favorites: 20:9 [i] For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. [/i] And then there's Leviticus 20:10: [i] And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. [/i] Isn't that a great value? Kill the adulterers. Nice. How about 20:13? [i]If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. [/i] The Bible mandates the death penalty for male homosexuals. Such a sublime value! Happily, if we take this one literally, dykes get off scott-free, which I am sure is a big relief to certain members of the clergy. Leviticus 20:18 says men are unclean if they sleep with menstruating women - so I hope you've never done that, Dn! And let's not forget Leviticus 20:27, which mandates folks to kill witches, always a big Christian fave. I happen to know the Bible pretty well and unlike some folks, I don't just gloss over or wave away its nastier parts. In short, I would not want to live in a world run by the values mandated by Leviticus, Dn. And our discussion is not about whether the Bible is useful and much less about whether it impacted much of the globe. The question is whether or not the Bible is simply a guide to modern ethics. African slavery was useful and impacted much of the globe, but that doesn't make it a guide to modern ethics, does it? My point is that the Bible can only be used in such a fashion with a lot of squinting, metaphorizing and sideways reading. [quote] Have you been around long enough to tell us all what is best? [/quote] Nope. I wouldn't even presume to try. You're the one selling an ethical recipe book here, Dn, not me. I don't think such questions are simply or easily resolved by any single set of moral ideas. As for humans having some innate, bare minimum standards, I can only think of two or three. Any one you're liable to name, I can give you examples of human societies which were built upon its systemic negation. Just try. [quote] The fact that there are hundreds of books written on the subject validates their importance to a great deal of people. [/quote] Sure, but that fact doesn't give such universalist notions any objective weight. The fact that people are making money by writing and selling such books could just as easily be an expression of Barnum's Law: i.e. "there's a fool born every minute". - Thaddeus Blanchette

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Sun, 23 Mar 2008 20:37:14 +0100

[quote]Would you like me to start quoting some of the Bible's Greatest Hits, too? Starting with, say, injunctions to kill your children if they disobey you...? [/quote] Careful again. You might confuse some non Bible readers (smile) If you can find anything REMOTELY similar to this PLEASE let us all know. Doesn't exist my friend. Don't waste your time. This is not your area of expertise. Just face it. It's not something you personally buy into . But it doesn't mean that it is neither useful or as impacted MUCH of the globe. The only thing that is going to help the poor, black , white , yellow , purple are some sound spiritual , esoteric , whatever you might want to call it "values and principles". That is unless you "movers and shakers" have a plan to equally distribute all the unevenly distributed wealth out there. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Even if it did , this proverb would apply "Luxury is not fitting for anyone stupid." Proverbs 19:10 We see it here all the time. [quote]It is hardly the consistent and absolute guide to ethics and morality which you make it out be. [/quote] Ok Thaddeus. Then just what are your suggestions ?? Have you been around long enough to tell us all what is best? I am sure you would have told us by now. Every other "ethic or morality " guide out there has nothing that can't already be found in the Bible. Really I am not trying to prove anything. Everything is speaking for itself.. Just the fact that we are throwing around "morals and ethics" shows that "innately" humans have some bare minimum standards. The fact that there are hundreds of books written on the subject validates their importance to a great deal of people. - dnbaiacu