Brazzil
Debate
Jan/Feb 2003

How Hard Is to Be Black in Brazil?

Brazzil Forum
A total of 271 postings

Guest

Anonymous

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I have heard more than once that there is no racism in brazil. Hard to believe when you know that at least half of the Brazilian population is black and there are very few black people that we see in the news: Pele, Xica, Benedita da Silva, Marina Silva, Gilberto Gil and a few more soccer players and musicians.

What's going on? Don't blacks have the same opportunities as white people? Does it make sense to call these disparities economic prejudice instead of racism?

What's your take?

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:44 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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Yes, there is racism in Brazil. It happens in a diferent way than in US, but it exists. There are some discussions on the old forum on this matter if it interests you.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:28 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP

Lucas

Newbie

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Yes, there is racism, but it's nothing compared to racism that occurs on USA.

If you are a good professional and owns a good mind you'll have the same opportunities. The problem is the majority of black people in Brasil does not have enough money to pay a good education.

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Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh

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Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:14 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP

Joe Gahona

Newbie

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Quote: from Lucas on 12:14 am on Jan. 8, 2003

Yes, there is racism, but it's nothing compared to racism that occurs on USA.

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I'd love to hear how the racism in Brazil is different from the racism in the U.S. Can you think of any examples?

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Total Posts: 13 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:32 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP

Lucas

Newbie

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I've never heard about a brazilian Klu Klux Klan, did you?

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Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh

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Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:46 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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There are no guetos.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:26 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP

USCIT

Newbie

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Hmmm. Not trying to be argumentive here, but Lucas; you have the land owner and industrialist shooting the landless. Not the same as the Klu Klux Clan, but a similar mentality is depicted. Somewhat more tragic in my opinion as it isn't the landowner or industrialist who goes out and personally does the shooting, just minions they hire who are actually no better off than those they are killing.

And Zé, if a favela isn't a ghetto, what is it?

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USCIT

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Total Posts: 21 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:24 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP

Lucas

Newbie

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We aren't talking about ilegal land invasions, it's a completely different matter.

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Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh

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Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:08 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP

Joe Gahona

Newbie

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Lucas,

I wasn't being sarcastic; I really want to know. I've read on this and the old forum things like "Brazil has racism, but it is different from the racism in the USA." Well, how is it different? Is racism not as much of a problem in Brazil? Are there programs like affirmative action? What is the percentage of blacks in brazil? People of European decent? Does this have an obvious bearing on who is a hard-core racist. (I don't know many latinos who are members of the Klan.)

Not asking for a book report, just curious what you mean by "different." Is racism projected in different ways, or by "different" do you (general "you" ) mean that it's not as much of a problem as it is in the USA? If a Brazilian asked me if Ireland had folk music, and if I said, "yes, there is folk music in Ireland, but it is different from the folk music of Brazil," that wouldn't explain a whole lot.

Thanks.

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Total Posts: 13 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:32 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP

Lucas

Newbie

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hum... I tried to write in english, but I couldn't, sorry.

O racismo aqui é muito mais leve, com certeza. Nunca houve nenhum grupo radical racista significante, eles nunca foram proíbidos de freqüentar universidades, o exército nunca impôs restrições pra postos mais elevados, etc.

Racismo é crime aqui já há algum tempo, pode dar até cadeia...

A porcetagem da população que é negra deve estar beirando os 30%, 40%, mas não há tantos aqui no sudeste como nos estados lá pra cima.

No entanto os negros geralmente ganham menos e não existem muitos em cargos de chefia, eles têm menos oportunidades do que a parcela restante de população justamente por serem mais pobres e não poderem pagar por uma universidade. As faculdades públicas são as melhores, só que muito concorridas. Os que estudaram em uma escola privada e fizeram cursinho levam vantagem, infelizmente. Eles até estão cogitando criar uma cota nas universidades para estudantes de escolas públicas, mas não sei como esse projeto anda.

O fato dos negros serem mais pobres é um problema que vem se arrastando desde o fim da escravidão, eles acabaram ficando sem onde ir e tiveram que morar em qualquer lugar. Junta-se isso com a falta de assistência do governo e pronto.

O racismo não é um problema aqui, mas sim a falta de oportunidade para os menos afortunados...

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Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh

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Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 11:15 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP

fernandobn

Junior Member

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I think that racism exists because of the human nature, and yes I think that is more an economic prejudice issue, less racism as the races get melted. In Brazil even in favelas you see more mixed races than before. I cannot think a place in Brasil that one could say there lives only blacks or is a Black gheto, but you can tell which bairro lives only wealthy people.

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Fernando B.

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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:24 pm on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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I beg to differ with you Lucas on the degree to which racism is a problem in Brazil.

There were just two articles in O Globo stating that Afro-Brazilians and so-called 'mulattos' with the SAME education as so-called 'white' Brazilians earn less than them and are rarely promoted to higher positions even when their credentials are equal or even superior to 'white' Brazilians.

There was another article in A Tarde about 1 week ago about the discrimination in hiring at the malls and other shopping areas in Salvador.

Rascism is racism. It is not just individual discrimnation. It is a systematic denial and repression of the humanity of a group of people.

As an African-American who volunteers in Liberdade (Bahia) and Bangu (Rio) the self-esteem of Afro-Brazilians are worse than what African-Americans had in the early part of this century. I have a friend in Rio who is insulted much by members of her own family because she is the darkest of the family despite the fact that, by American standards, she is infinitely the most beautiful. And even she acknowledges that darker Brazilian women are easy prey for lighter men and mediocre white tourists because they want 'light babies'. Those are her words....not mine.

The racism of the Brazilian media (newspaper and television) is similar to that of the early white media in the United States in the 40s and 50s that only portrayed the pathologies of a people and not the human efforts and achievements.

Similar to these early white racist papers black coverage is only given to entertainment, sports and sensual women.

The images presented of a people determine, for many of them, their expectations in life. RACA (the Afro-Brazilian magazine) is trying to change this but it is a very small effort.

Brazilian racism is different than U.S. racism but as we say in the American South..."the lesser of two evils is still....EVIL!"

And unlike the United States...racism is not the only evil that affects the misery in Brazilian society. There is a classism that affects Brazilians of all colors and ethnicities. But the evil of one does not deny the evil of the other.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:58 pm on Jan. 12, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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>>>And unlike the United States...racism is not the only evil that affects the misery in Brazilian society. There is a classism that affects Brazilians of all colors and ethnicities.<<<

EXACTLY. And the concept of classism is one that most Americans have no idea about. As an American, I had no idea what classism even was. It wasn't until my third trip to Brasil, in São Paulo, that I saw it happening firsthand to people before my eyes. It's a very cruel system, and for that reason alone, I am glad that I don't live in Brazil.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:51 pm on Jan. 12, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Perhaps I'll clarify my view on that. Classism is very much a part of the American society. But the United States is a mega-producing country and the abundance of material things makes the separation between our classes not a separation between the 'haves' and 'misery' but between those who have very much, those who have something, those who are kinda comfortable, and those who survive.

But the labor class in America has to uproot their lives to survive just as those in the Sertão and other Brazilians Northeasterners flood Rio and São Paulo searching for a better life.

The greatest population growth in America has been the South and Southwest as poor Americans, made jobless by the shutdown of the coal mines and the loss of manufacturing jobs in the old Northeastern (American) cities have uprooted their families and fled to these areas in search of jobs.

American racism has so blinded whites in America that these whites who share the same problems as African-Americans refuse to unite in common cause (except in some instances) despite the fact that the rural whites, the rust belt whites, the suburban poor are victims of the same greedy, profit driven downsizing as the urban and Southern African-Americans.

I think by ''classism" you mean the term "elitism" (forgive me for interpreting your meaning). And yes...I personally feel (with my limited knowledge) that that is a major issue in Brazilian society.

At least from what I have experienced and the attitudes I have received here in Brazil because many 'white' Brazilians do not know that I am not Brazilian and as an African-American...we just ain't in the mood for taking that kind of sh-t from anyone.

I do believe that the multi-racial, multi-ethnic coalition that elected Lula shows the ability of Brazilians to unite across color and ethnic lines that we Americans have yet to match.

Racism in Brazil does not seem to be cultural as it is here in the States. "White" culture versus "Black" culture. My 'white' friends in Rio would be considered culturally African-Americans (and only 1 would be considered white) whereas when Elvis Presley started singing he was considered a sellout to 'white culture' by singing in a Black style.

I have an older lawyer friend in Rio who is purely of english ancestry but the only music that brings tears to his eyes is that of Jorge Aragão and others who play the 'roots of Samba'.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:09 am on Jan. 13, 2003 | IP

stark114

Newbie

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<>

Exactly what kind of crap did you go through? Do Black Brazilians just accept this type of treatment do to their alledged lack of self esteem?

Also, I've heard that interracial marraiges are not uncommon in Brazil. Is this not contradictory in some sense? Perhaps it is a case of "marrying up"? If a white or lighter skill Brazilian women marries a Black Brazilian man, is he usually better off financially?

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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:01 am on Jan. 13, 2003 | IP

Sick

Newbie

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In Latin America, race and class are inextricably linked, whereas in the US it is not. This link of class and race is sometimes given the name "polite racism". An oxymoron if there ever was one. In other words, the racism is not overt, as it is and has historically been in the US.

The class and race link has ramifications in regards to globalisation because in general Latin American nations are dominated by an ethnic minority (people who tend to be whiter than the average population and tend to be of mostly of European descent). Five hundred years of political and economic domination by this ethnic minority is coming to a head with globalisations free markets and democracy. A good example of the potential risks in all this is Venezuela where Hugo Chavez, who was legitimately elected, ran a campaign of demagoguery proclaiming Venezuela for the Pardos! and playing on class/ethnic tensions. It is easy to applaud the democracy but when a demagogue, playing on ethnic tensions, is elected and begins to implement plans to return the nation to it's "rightful owners" this can result in a backlash by the group generally targeted, thus the coup attempt. The US, leader of the globalizing forces, seems to have not taken this ethnic dynamic of some developing nations into account. Essentially, sudden democratization coupled with laisez-faire economics (economics even the first world nations reject) could actually be a recipe for disaster. I just hope Venezuela is the exception and not the rule.

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I have the best hair on this website.

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Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 5:50 am on Jan. 13, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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ALL BLACK BRAZILIANS ARE ASHAMED OF THEIR SKIN COLOR CAUSE ALL OF THEM WISH THEY WERE WHITE

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:03 pm on Jan. 15, 2003 | IP

stark114

Newbie

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Comments?

< Within days of the refused bribe, all of her posters were painted over with the words Negra Feia, Ugly Black Woman. Unable to discredit her honesty or merits, her opponents orchestrated a smear that focused solely on race. Long-time friends and even some relatives, most likely paid off, suddenly were working against her. Margarida lost by a landslide. When Margarida's nephew caught his girlfriend tearing down Margarida's posters, she responded, I'm not going to waste my vote on that ugly, black thing.

Margarida's story of racial discrimination is not isolated to the rural areas of the Northeast. Every day millions of Afro-Brazilians experience racism. From the family living room, where darker skinned children are often discriminated against, to Church pews, barbershops, classrooms, and the Halls of Congress, racism gnaws at the fabric of Brazilian society. The South American giant is often considered by foreigners and Brazilians as a racial democracy because of the high number of interracial marriages and seemingly easy banter between the races in every day life. Racial Democracy, coined by the Brazilian Sociologist Gilberto Freyre in early 20th century, is the theory that a history of extended miscegenation has created a cultural melange in which all races are equally valued. Nothing is farther from the truth in contemporary Brazil.

Race in Brazil is complex and distinct. Most Brazilians claim a mixed African, European, and indigenous ancestry. In practice, however, the weight of racism causes people to continually whiten themselves. For example, many morenos straighen their hair, people search for lighter-skinned marriage partners, and people identify themselves and each other with nicknames indicating a lighter skin tone, such as moreninho (browny), cafe (coffee), mulato, bronzeado (tanned), and escurinho (darky) to name a few. Rarely will someone assume an identity as Negro (black). Even those who call themselves black often have a hard time convincing other Brazilians not to identify them as moreno or mulatto. Calling someone black, for many, is still an insult.

Skin color profoundly influences life chances. According to a 1992 study by Carlos Hasenbalg and Nelson do Valle Silva, Brazilian nonwhites are three times more likely than whites to be illiterate. The numbers deteriorate in the high echelons of academic study. Whites are FIVE times more likely than people of mixed ancestry and NINE times more likely than Blacks to obtain university degrees. This pattern repeats itself in the work force where according to government statistics whites have access to the highest-paying jobs, earning up to 75% more than blacks and 50% more than people of mixed ancestry.(1) Brazil's prisons and youth detention centers are bursting at the seams. The vast majority of detainees and victims of police brutality are non-white Brazilians. Not surprisingly, health statistics paint a similar picture. For example, non-white Brazilian infants are almost twice as likely to die as their white counterparts.

Not all of the consequences of racism can be neatly packaged into statistics and charts. Effects on self-esteem are not easily measured. At a recent reflection group of Afro-Brazilian Women in Joao Pessoa, Paraiba, Cida painfully recounted the termination of her relationship. For several years, she dated Chico, a lighter-skinned black, and their color difference never created difficulties. When they got engaged, Chico's family exploded with his mother leading the attack, This little blackie is going to pollute our blood. Go and find someone who will purify our blood. Chico caved in and broke the engagement within days. Two years later Cida painfully asked in the group, How can you tell me not to feel inferior because of my color? Brazil's black movement struggles to address this question by introducing a positive black identity and fighting racism at all levels of society.>>

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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:54 am on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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The above was excerpted from a Brazzil magazine story that ran in November 1999.

The author is Kathleen Bond who works with the Maryknoll Mission Association of the Faithful in Brazil.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:11 am on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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No offense, but I find the first story highly suspicious, since politics aren't exactly that easy. You don't demoralize your opponent simply saying that he is black, there is quite a context missing here.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:40 am on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP

fernandobn

Junior Member

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Ah! Complex Human Nature! I think that racism is a particular Case of Discrimination. Even having Portuguese, Italian heritage My Family and I suffered Discrimination in US. At work, I was treated as a 3rd Class professional...not being invited to meetings where all my team was, and other small things (this is not because of the language). At School my kids geting the thoughest reprimand than the american kids for similar childish things. I wrote a letter to the principal talking about the problem and I was called for a meeting with all staff because they were afraid that the letter could reach the School district. So, things like... You are prepy... you are popular and I am not!, you are a Loser! and so on. Human beings, start early tagging themselves as Losers, winners and etc. This, in my point of view, is wrong. We should strive to accept differences better! Because we never know the next day or next life!

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Fernando B.

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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 11:22 am on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Racism and Discrimination are like the Dragon and the Lizard. An 'ism' is institutionally supported by society in the culture, laws, and accepted behaviour of its people.

Most American immigrants intially suffered 'racism', the Irish, the Poles, the Italians, etc. Because initially the false concept of a 'white' race only applied to WASPs. (white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant). Early Italians would refer to those of English ancestry as 'white people'.

(ref the book: HOW THE IRISH BECAME WHITE)

But as the social and political benefits of being 'white' became obvious subsequent generations of immigrant Americans accepted the WASPS ideals as the model, many changed their names, downplayed their ethnicness, and assimilated into 'whiteness'. In effect, these immigrants eliminated racism by simply joining the 'enemy'.

A tragedy. Outside of America the biggest supporters of the Irish were African-American leaders. The rally cry for the black nationalist Marcus Garvey "AFRICA FOR THE AFRICANS" was taken directly from the rally cry of the Irish "IRELAND FOR THE IRISH". No greater respect was given to an American than to Paul Robeson (African-American singer, activist, Rhodes Scholar) who visited Ireland often and with his baritone voice brought tears to the eyes of the Irish as he sang of their struggles against the 'whites'....the English.

Yet, the Irish in the United States were the main antagonists against African-Americans. The Irish Riots in my city, Philadelphia, killed hundreds of African-Americans and destroyed one of the largest black middle-class on the East Coast. Generally because the poor and uneducated Irish competed for the same low wage jobs as the African-Americans. But the 'whites' still had such low contempt for the Irish that, even today, the police vans are called PADDY WAGONS, 'paddy' being a derogative applied to the Irish.

The corruption of many Protestant religions to justify this racism, including Mormonism ("blacks are the children of Cain and the mark God gave on Cain was to make him black...according to the Mormons) was used to institutionalize the idea that not just England, but Europe, was the home of 'whites'. For many decades the Italians were still not considered to be white and faced a particular 'racism' well into the late sixties.

In my opinion, the greatest 'sin' of the Brazilians was to accept and perpetuate this false idea of race and accept not just the 'term' white but the social and political caste structure inherent in the American definition.

Without the caste structure the various names are meaningless. Even we African-Americans call ourselves light-skinned, dark-skinned, redbone, high yellow, etc. But, except in small instances, we ascribe no human potential to these titles. The achievements of 'light-skinned' Colin Powell (Secretary of State) or the 'dark-skinned Condoleeza Rice (head of the National Security Agency) are expected by us. I am a member of the National Black MBA Association. We would never choose a light-skinned person over a dark-skinnned person for president because of their color.

But when I talk to many, not all, but many of my friends here (Brazil) I can hear the judgement being made when a racial term is applied to other Brazilians. It is not just a harmless term to describe ancestry but a judgement of that ancestry and limitations put on the expectations of a particular individual.

I'll correct myself to say, maybe not all Brazil, but in my experiences. And I don't spend times at clubs and bars. I am in the houses talking to mothers and fathers and grandmothers and grandfathers.

Many of whom are praying for and distressed over their child selling themselves to depraved tourists on the streets of Pelourinho, Copacabana, etc.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:48 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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IF YOU TAKE AWAY RIO AND SALVADOR BRAZIL BARELY HAS ANY BLACK PEOPLE AT ALL.THIS WHOLE THANG ABOUT BRAZIL HAVING THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION AFTER NIGERIA IS B.S.MOST OF BRAZIL IS EITHER WHITE OR MESTIZO.IF YOU GO TO THE SOUTH,THE CENTRAL WEST,OR THE AMAZON BLACKS ARE AN ENDANGERED SPECIES THERE ALMOST INVISIBLE.THE U.S HAS A WAY LARGER BLACK POPULATION THEN BRAZIL SO WHY ISNT THE U.S CONSIDERED THE THE NATION WITH THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION AFTER NIGERIA CAUSE IT MAKES MORE SENSE DONT YALL THINK.IN THE U.S THERE ARE CITIES THAT BLACKS MAKE THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION LIKE EAST L.A,ATLANTA,WASHINGTON DC,AND NEW ORLEANS JUST TO NAME A FEW BRAZIL DOSENT HAVE PREDOMINANTLY BLACK CITIES, TO ME BRAZIL IS LIKE THE SOUTH AMERICAN VERSION OF MONTANA MEANING WHITES ARE OVER 90 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION.I LIVE IN NEW YORK AND I HAVE NEVER EVEN SEEN A AFRO BRAZILIAN ALL THE BRAZILIANS THAT I HAVE EVER MET ARE WHITE IAND I HAVE PASSED BY LITTLE BRAZIL A COUPLE OF TIMES AND THATS SAYING SOMETHING.

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:26 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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To Adrianerik:

Maybe it is because you spend your time in such specific enviroment, you lack something of the whole.

To MARQUESEAZY:

Actually those of pure african ancestry are more rare than those of pure european ancestry, but if you consider the mestizos black as in the US, Brazil does have a marjority of black.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:34 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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@Ze - Perhaps.

I don't know what you mean by 'specific environment'.

Nevertheless I'm not one to generalize (okay...maybe a little). I'm mostly in Bahia, Rio, Sao Paulo and Rondonia. My friends there span the range from poor young black kids to upper middle class white lawyers and engineers. My experiences are the same in all of those places. Actually in Rondonia the blacks are catching a bit more hell.

I can't speak for the other 22 states.

Would I find them to be different? Are the education rates, the upper level employment rates, the self-esteem among blacks, indians and mulattos higher in these other states?

I don't know and would expect that Brazil, like the United States, also has the same social complexities, and for every social hell have areas of social harmony.

Perhaps in April, when I have some time, I'll take some time to visit some others. I'm finishing a book THE DOGS OF BAHIA which is fiction but is influenced by some of my experiences.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:41 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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Is your experience in these four states really similar?

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:15 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP

Loco

Newbie

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In my opinion the black people from Brazil have some fault too about all this problem.

I can give you an example.

Most of the population of Rio Grande do Sul is white, almost 86%.

In Bahia almost 90% is black.

Rio Grande do Sul had the first black governator of Brazil and was the first state to gave freedom for the slaves. There is a black senator for this state too nowdays.

Bahia population only vote for white politians, blacks dont have power there.

The black people from Brazil dont complain, they are too passive.

But I dont think that Brazil is racist like US, here most of the problems is because of the money.

You dont see racism against japanese, jews, arabs....because most of they r not poor here.

And there is another thing, the black culture of Brazil is really strong, the white population of Brazil is almost invisible to the rest of the world.

Its really normal for a white brazilian go to other country and heard "how can you be brazilian? You are white" or "you have blond hair, you cant be from Brazil"

The white population of Brazil iss to big to be compared with the white minorities from other latin countries.

Some1 here wrote that the brazilian black population is small outside Rio and Salvador, this is not true, go to São Paulo, Minas or any Northeast state. Brazil have the second largest black population of the world.

Sorry for my bad english

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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:22 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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HOW DOES BRAZIL HAVE THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION IN THE WORLD WHEN BLACKS ONLY MAKE UP 6% OF THE POPULATION IN BRAZIL THATS A VERY SMALL MINORITY AND THATS FAR FROM THE MAJORITY.WHITES WAY OUTNUMBER BLACKS CAUSE WHITES IN BRAZIL MAKE UP 55% OF THE POPULATION.SO BRAZIL IS FAR FROM PREDOMINANTLY BLACK AND IT NEVER WILL BE EITHER.NOW OTHER LATIN COUNTRIES LIKE THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC,CUBA,AND PANAMA IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY CAUSE IN THOSE COUNTRIES BLACKS AND MULATTOES ARE THE MAJORITY CAUSE THEY MAKE UP OVER 70% OF THE POPULATION.SO THIS WHOLE THANG ABOUT BRAZIL HAVING THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION IN THE WORLD IS JUST A MYTH AND STATISTICS PROVE IT NOW HOW DID IT GET THIS MYTH BEATS ME.BUT PEOPLE DO OVER EXAGERATE THE POPULATION OF BLACKS IN BRAZIL AND I AM WILLINGLY TO BET THAT EVEN EUROPE HAS A LARGER BLACK POPULATION THEN BRAZIL.

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:47 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP

Sick

Newbie

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Ha. This thread is proving why racial classifications are so pointless.

First, Ze, not being picky here just a clarification. I think you meant "mulatto", not "mestizo". Mestizos are considered "hispanic" in the US (assuming you define mestizo as a european and indian mix).

Second, Marqueseazy, if you are using the Brasilian definitions of race, then what you say is technically correct and valid in that regard. However, North American definitions differ. The US uses the "one drop rule", meaning if someone is of so-called mix race, and displays about any stereotypical feature of the non-white mix, that person is considered non-white and labeled whatever the non-white mix is. Therefore, mulattos are generally considered black. So comparing statistics between the two countries is pointless, the definitions are different.

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I have the best hair on this website.

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Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:53 am on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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@Ze - Specifically in regards to the condition of black people the experiences are the same...or perhaps similar is a better word. The situation in Rio and Sao Paulo is similar to our major cities....not only is there the poverty and lack of higher education there is also the same anger (zangrado) typically found in urban settings where the disparity between the haves and have-nots is in your face every day and the need to control the anger of the have-nots can be manifested quite brutally. My work in Bangu with Jovems Pra Jovems and Caixa Da Supressa (two initiatives to help the youths there (mostly black but not all black) gives evidence of this.

Bahia and Rondonia are similar to our American South where we have many towns that are majority Black and the biting anger is not there but the same degree of exclusion as in Rondonia where I work with the GRUPO DE MULHERES NEGRAS DE RONDONIA.

But those are just my experiences. I am not qualified to write a book on racism in Brazil. I will make a hypothesis on what I expect to find based upon on how racism has manifested itself in various forms around this world.

But I am quite teachable. No pet agendas.

I would wish that I found none at all in Brazil. I like the people there of all ethnicities.

Feel free to offer other visions to me.

There always are several structural differences to the way racism manifests itself , rural versus urban, minority population versus majority population but when you get to the roots of the negative images that people are being fed and the allocation of resources, whether much resources or few resources their issues are the same.

@loco - You are addressing the symptoms and not the cause. Read WRETCHED OF THE EARTH by Frantz Fanon (and though it is a flawed work) it gives insight on how a pathology imposed upon a people is perpetuated by that people.

I have heard rumors of Rio De Sul excluding other Brazilians from migrating there. I don't state that as a fact but I've been told by friends in Rio. If that is not the case or only happened in small instances then my apologies.

In California they elected the first African-American mayor though African-Americans are only about 15% of Los Angeles. We African-Americans are far beyond this idea of 'firsts'. The question is whose interests an individual represents. Black skin does not make a person godly. When the Nazis initially rounded up the Jews, in some cases, they were aided by other Jew.

Finally this is just a reply to this thread. Racism is not the sole issue in Brazil. And blacks and mulattoes are not the only victims. That is a fact. My friends in a favela in Ilha called Cocota are struggling to survive...they are the loveliest people in the world and they are brancos.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:09 am on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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To Sick: Thanks, we use the word "Mestiço" as mixed race, including mulato, and others, and so I thought that it was a cognate.

To Marqueseazy: There is no myth, this data was aquired in the last census, 6% think themselves as black, and I-don't-remember-the-number-but-know-it-is-big are "mestiços" which we use as a politicaly correct word for mulato on statistics.

To Adrianerik: There is one type of racism that I think that you will find stronger in Rio and São Paulo where you work, it is against "Nordestinos". Have a good look on it, and see if it isn't true.

(Edited by Ze at 9:26 am on Jan. 17, 2003)

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:23 am on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP

ELEGANTGENT

Junior Member

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ADRIANERIK, WHAT TYPE OF WORK DO YOU DO?

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Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:39 pm on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP

Patinho

Junior Member

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Adrianerik-

I can kind of verify Ze's last statement about "Nordestinos". I thought that the States were divided because of the whole civil war thing, but Brazil is even worse.

For Example: I bought some portuguese lesson cassettes a few years ago. My Carioca freind found this interesting and wanted to listen while we were in the car. Upon hearing that the teacher on the tape had a Northern accent... she ejected the tape and threw it out the window. I could not beleive she did that. She said "That's not portuguese.... I'll teach you portuguese."

Since all of the portuguese influence I had so far was form the Nordeste, she made it her mission to rid me of that accent and replace it with a Carioca one. Now I tend to speak a mixture of both places along with my horrible, but getting better American accent.

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"Quem quer viver faz magica"

--Guimaraes Rosa

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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:33 pm on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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I have no doubt of the bias against Nordestinos but elitist bigotry should not be confused with racism which infects the educational material, religion, the judiciary laws, etc while elitist bigotry can be a regional bias, similar to the past disdain of Northern 'yankees' against the American South...something that has only begun to change in recent years.

It's also interesting that the heart of Carioca culture is not native Carioca but imported from the Nordeste...from the white clothing at Revellion, to Carnaval (initiated by Nordestinos or the children of Nordestinos at Manguiero), to the celebrations to Iemanja on Copacabana on New Year's Eve.

Three of my closest friends are of European ancestry from Rio De Sul and they all came to Rio De Janeiro and married the daughters of Nordestinos.

Viva Brazil! but God Bless the Nordestinos. My family is from South Carolina (southern state in the United States) and we were dirt poor and called 'country' by the Northerners (the equivalent of the Cariocas and the Paulistas). I know of the struggles of the Nordestinos and relate to them.

@elegantgent - You can go to my web site at "http://members.aol.com/adrianerik for information on what I am doing. I don't believe in being anonymous on web sites. Love me or hate me I don't hide 'cause I can handle myself.

We (myself and friends) have free english classes, teach web site development, are beginning to assist groups that are trying to help the disadvantaged score higher on the vestibular and recently are beginning to sponsor the tuition to the Faculdade for women in Rondonia. (this is a new effort that is not fully developed).

There are some initiatives in the sciences, mathematics and business development that are possibilities. There are many African-Americans who initially come to Brazil as tourists but find similarities to our former oppression in the United States and what is happening in Brazil and wish to do more than take advantage of the disadvantaged. So we attempt to channel African-American resources to viable areas in Brazil that are serious. We've submitted proposals to Escola Criativa Do Olodum to work with their kids and that is being considered also.

We are focused on Afro-Brazilians but not exclusively. You cannot ignore misery because of someone's color or ethnicity.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:02 pm on Jan. 18, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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Adrianerik, those are not the heart of carioca culture, they are an integral part of brazilian culture, altough their origin is in nordeste.

Don't close your eyes, the prejudice against "Nordestinos" is racism.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:42 pm on Jan. 18, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Okay....I won't argue the point. It really doesn't matter what is the exact motive when a person is firing a gun at another person. Only that, regardless, the other person has to protect himself/herself.

If you slap a man because he is black or slap a man because he is a Nordestino we still have to teach that same man not to worry about WHY he is being slapped but how to resist...how to protect...how to defend...

It is such an ironic situation in Brazil because so-called 'brancos' have not created such an awesome civilization that they should be thumbing their noses at anyone.

But then that is the other complication of Brazilian society. With the Brazilian definitions of 'brancos' 'pardos' 'pretos' 'caboclo' 'mestizo', etc the sin of racism is able to be manifested in various layers in Brazil. My 'bronzada' friend in Ilha (in Rio) is insulted by her 'cinnamon' Tia (aunt) because she is the darkest in the family. I had no idea what she said until I saw the tears in her eyes and she explained the insult.

The whole idea of racism and silly racists is so foolish.

We hope to number their days.

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:05 pm on Jan. 18, 2003 | IP

Loco

Newbie

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The name of the state is Rio Grande do Sul, not Rio do Sul.

There is no law against migration here.

Many people from the south region states get worry about the "nordestinos" because of what they heard from "paulistas" and "cariocas".

Many people from São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro usually say that the nordestinos are destroying their cities and they are all dirty and dangerous.

The brazilian media sometimes is like the foreing media, they only show poor and bad things about the northeast region...or they show only big parties and naked people, in the same way that foreing media shows Brazil.

People from the south of Brazil are ignorants about the northeast, Im from Santa Catarina and now I live in Rio Grande do Sul, I can say that 90% of my friends hates people from northeast but they are not racist against blacks from here.

The south and the norteast are the extremes of Brazil, one is white and "rich" compared with the rest of the country and the other is black and poor.

But its hard to understand how some people from Rio can be so racist sometimes, they live in a city where all the races and cultures of Brazil get mixed, where many people from others states of Brazil lives and people from all the world go visit.

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SEI LÁ

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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:08 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP

Patinho

Junior Member

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Can't we all just....... get along?

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"Quem quer viver faz magica"

--Guimaraes Rosa

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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:34 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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@Loco - And the black woman who was elected there. Does she challenge this bigotry of the 'gauchos' or does she keep quiet.

Some of my Carioca friends have told me stories of what happens when certain people try to migrate to the south. I'm told that its partially economics and partially regional and or racial.

For example....a poor Italian immigrant with no money would be welcome but a Nordestino would be asked to leave the town.

Of course..this is illegal. According to the Brazilian constitution poverty is unconstitutional.

Que será...será.

Are there many in Rio Grand de Sul who still want to secede from Brazil?

@Patinho - "Power yields nothing without a demand" (Frederick Douglass)

We cannot plant the seeds of apathy every day and hope to see change the next morning.

That is a lesson we Americans learned in 1776. We should teach others our history.

Peace

(I think someone is trying to attack my computer...have to deal with that).

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:45 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP

Patinho

Junior Member

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"Without struggle, there can be no progress."

--Fredrick Douglass

Thought maybe that applied too.....

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"Quem quer viver faz magica"

--Guimaraes Rosa

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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 8:55 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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MOST NORDESTINOS ARE NOT BLACK BUT MEZTIZO THE AMERICAN SOUTH HAS WAY MORE BLACKS THEN BRAZIL'S NORTHEAST. I WOULD EVEN GO AS FAR TO SAY THAT ATLANTA HAS A LARGER BLACK POPULATION THEN SALVADOR WILL EVER HAVE IF YOU'VE BEEN TO BOTH CITIES THEN YOU KNOW I AM TELLING THE TRUTH

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:48 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP

Loco

Newbie

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What black woman?

I dont know about this stories.

Many people from Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina, Parana and São Paulo wants to secede, but they are not the majority.

"That is a lesson we Americans learned in 1776. We should teach others our history."

You should learn about brazilian history too and you could know why Rio Grande do Sul wanted to secede, I think you would be in the "gaúchos" side.

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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:57 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Ma bad! (my mistake). I assumed that the first black governor of the state was a woman.

I am aware of some of the history of the Brazilian south. I don't think that I ever would be considered a supporter of the secession of the south.

There are many fundamental differences between the development of the South and that of the central and North of Brazil. The greatest advantage has been the massive land grants given to the Germans and Swiss in 1824 and later to the Japanese and Poles.

While the those of the Sertão and freed Africans were given nothing. Many Africans are descendants of the greatest cattle herders in Africa and were quite cabable of developing their own cattle-raising industries. As a matter of fact....though they were not slaves...many of the early 'gauchós' workers were these runaway Africans.

But the rulers decided to Europeanize the South thus giving an advantage to foreigners while native Brazilians were being killed just to have the same opportunity at land.

And much of the gauchos reputation for fierceness and independence was as a result of the border wars with Spain. However it was the spanish who ensured the protection of the christian indian missons at the time. It was these missions who first introduced the idea that a certain type of agriculture and cattle could be raised there.

However, the way was cleared for the later european immigrants with the complete destruction of these seven missions.

This was an advantage 'given' to the South not earned by the South. Therefore I would never support any idea of their secession from Brazil.

I do honor the achievements of the South AFTER they were given this advantage. Very efficient...very productive.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:08 am on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Loco

Newbie

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Rio Grande do Sul wanted the secession because of many things.

My english is not good, so I will write in portuguese.

Você sabia que antigamente o Nordeste era rico e o Sul era pobre?

O Rio Grande do Sul lutou por causa dos altos impostos ao charque daqui enquanto os concorrentes da Argentina e Uruguai ganhavam o mercado brasileiro com a ajuda do próprio Império.

Mas esse não foi o único motivo, havia também o fato de os gaúchos serem sempre mandandos aos campos de batalha na primeira linha e em maioria, e o Império não ajudava em quase nada.

O Rio Grande do Sul também lutou pela liberdade dos negros, aqui os escravos nunca foram tratados da maneira como ocorreu no resto do Brasil. Claro que depois da guerra o Império Brasileiro ordenou que os negros se tornassem novamente escravos mas anos antes de a escravidão acabar eles já eram livres aqui, mesmo isso sendo ilegal.

Os gaúchos também lutavam pela formação de uma república, queriam o fim do Império.

Tenho muito respeito pelos cariocas e pela cultura deles, mas eles não podem falar nada dos gaúchos porque o Rio de Janeiro sempre estive no centro das atenções do governo e sempre se mantiver ao lado dele, foram passiveis aos mandos e desmandos.

A colonização do RS,SC e PR não foi fácil, o Império só deu terras para os primeiros imigrantes, e ainda por cima no meio de florestas, sem quase nenhuma ajuda.

O resto do país pode falar muita coisa ruim sobre o RS, mas eles nunca lutaram a favor da liberdade dos negros, contra o império e a favor da democracia como ocorreu em 1962.

Quando eu morava em SC também não sabia muito sobre a História do Rio Grande do Sul e também achava os gaúchos um pouco idiotas, mas depois que vim morar aqui aprendi muita coisa e posso dizer que eles são os mais politizados e preocupados com os rumos do país.

Numa recente pesquisa feita em todos os estados do Brasil os gaúchos ficacaram no topo da lista entre os que mais tinham orgulho de ser brasileiros, só perdendo para o habitantes do Distrito Federal.

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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:53 am on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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@Loco - You are quite correct. That much I know. But, in my opinion, much of the confict between South, North and Central has been business interests battling business interests and not because of a belief in the ideals of liberty, freedom and brotherhood.

The North hated the South because the idea of paying free men to produce goods and services challenged every institution of slavery in the North.

When the United States ended slavery in 1865 it was not because of any love for African-Americans but as a political and military leverage against the war with the South.

But I am not an expert on the the Brazil south.

From what I here there are areas that are very conservative and right-wing and then there are areas that are left. Is that true?

And though the South supported Vargas did they not also support the coup and the rule of the generals?

I am asking. I don't know these things.

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:07 am on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

BRENT

Newbie

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Adrianerik said: "But I am not an expert on the the Brazil south."

You're not an expert on the U.S. south, either. There are far more reasons that the North hated the South other than the ONE you state.

Inevitably when one talks about slavery, someone moans how "it wasn't ended because of any love for blacks." Of course desire for equality factored in. To say otherwise is straight-up ignorant.

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Total Posts: 22 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:18 am on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Did you get lost bitch! Go back to your other silly posting site on your upcoming trip with your other scum!

I was referring to the North of BRAZIL you moron!

The antagonism was the reverse of the United States, as was the slavery.

So now...get lost.

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:11 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

BRENT

Newbie

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You should be more clear with your writing. That I "misunderstood" your post is your fault, not mine.

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Total Posts: 22 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:29 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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I don't understand how anyone can give extact numbers on how many Black Brazilians there really are, when the way in which you conduct your census is soo blurred. I mean you have a section for people who are neither black nor white lol. So to say the numbers are small is not correct just as to say the numbers are high. No one really knows and that's very sad. Brazil has so many labels for their people especially if they aren't white. It's really a shame and I see Brazil as worst than the United States on this matter. So I can't dispute it one way or the other, because your own government can't agree. Which leads me to believe that life as a Black in Brazil must be pretty shitty if they are hoping everyone is anything but a Morena. Thank God for Spanish countries!

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:14 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Liz

Newbie

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JOE GAHONA, LUCAS is right.

Racism is different in Brazil and a subtle breeze if compared to the tornado of what we see here in the USA.

AND IT'S A SHOCKING DIFFERENCE. I FEEL REALLY BAD LIVING IN THIS ANIMOSITY ENVIRONMENT.

When in Bahia, where the population is predominantly black, I have never been treated differently or badly for being white. HERE I AM.

In the southernmost parts of Brazil, where the European culture predominates, no black guy will be treated differently for being in a restaurant that has only white people.

On the other hand, here, the first doctor that I chose was black, and so were his nurses and all of the patients. Unaware of those strong and horrible habits of racism practiced in everyday situations, only after half an hour in the waiting room I realized why everyone looked at me with an angry face: I was the only white person there.

AGAIN, I AM NOT SAYING RACISM DOESNT EXIST IN BRAZIL. YES, IT DOES. But it's only a little spice in the food. In the USA it seems to be the main dish.

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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:58 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Loco

Newbie

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É até ironico isso, pois muitos ditadores do Brasil eram gaúchos ou estudaram no Rio Grande do Sul, mas quando em 1962 o exército tentou chegar ao poder a população gaúcha foi contra.

Por muito pouco o estado não entrou em guerra com o resto do país, muitas pessoas começaram a se alistar e a montar barricadas.

Quando souberam que o exército mandaria aviões para bombardear Porto Alegre milhares de pessoas ficaram em volta do palácio do governo em vigilia.

O exército só não conseguiu destruir porque os soldados gaúchos não deixaram os aviões voarem.

Esse acontecimento ficou conhecido como a Campanha da Legalidade e o Brasil continuou uma democracia por mais dois anos, depois os militares chegaram ao poder.

Essa é uma história que poucos brasileiros conhecem.

Os paranaenses e catarinenses são mais moderados, hoje em dia esses estados apesar de não serem governados pelo PT são aliados do Lula. Já o RS é bipolarizado, de um lado estão os petistas e do outros os anti-petistas. Apesar de o PT ter nascido em São Paulo foi no Rio Grande do Sul que ele ganhou força, apesar de aqui os petistas serem mais radicais enquanto no resto do país são moderados.

Os gaúchos ficaram a favor de Vargas porque estava cegos pelo fato de um deles ter chegado ao poder, hoje em dia muitas ainda se orgulham mas conheço mais gente ainda que se envergonha. Apesar de tudo eu acho que o Vargas teve algumas coisas boas.

Mas quam voce acha que estava certo? O sul que preferiu o trabalho livre ou o nordeste que preferia o trabalho escravo...?

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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:03 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Liz

Newbie

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OH, JOE GAHONA, LUCAS IS RIGHT FOR ONE MORE REASON ... HE IS A "MAC INTOSHICO"!!!! I've never net a Mac Intoshico that was not a nice guy. :^) Now, speaking seriously, ...

JOE, YOU DON'T NEED TO TELL BRAZILIANS TO STUDY THEIR ORIGINS. They do it a lot better than many Americans. Even more so if we consider the lack of infrastructure, money and education level of the country => THERE'S AN IMPRESSIVE PART OF THE POPULATION IN BRAZIL DEDICATED TO THE AFRO-BRAZILIAN RELIGIONS, TO CAPOEIRA, TO SAMBA, TO BRAZILIAN DANCES, SO MUCH SO THAT A LOT OF THEM END UP BECOMING FAMOUS HERE AND TEACHING THOSE AFRO-ORIGIN CULTURE PRACTICES.

On the other hand, the only black manifest that we can see bunches here in the USA is the rap music that, frankly, lacks a real sense of art and creativity, something that is quite abundant in all Brazilian arts.

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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:06 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Liz

Newbie

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LOCO, ISSO AI', DA' DE RELHO!!!

(and if you need any help with your English, it will be a pleasure to help you, to the extent and limit of my English knowledge, of course, but it would be interesting to have all the guys being able to read what you've said)

Actually, I bought some interesting books about the southern Brazilian history, and in English. In case anyone is interested, I can tell you the title, Publisher, year ...

TELL US MORE, LOCO!

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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:24 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Liz

Newbie

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Well, guys, I guess we are talking about two totally different worlds and cultures and, as it seems, there's no way to compare them with the intent of saying one or the other is better or worse. THEY ARE DIFFERENT.

As for self-esteem of black people in Brazil, there's an interesting issue. Brazilian black women look like they are proud of being black. And that is something to compliment. They are beautiful for what they are. They don't have, for instance, the necessity to get they hair straightened out each and everyday.

Just a thought.

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"Tudo vale a pena se a alma não é pequena"

Fernando Pessoa, Portuguese Poet

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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:51 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Cleary you have NEVER lived in America the good ole' USA. Blacks aren't treated bad in restaraunts anymore, what era are you speaking of? Blacks are a thriving people in America, the average Black in a America is educated, attends college, and is middle class. The numbers are not huge like in Brazil between the rich, middle class, and the poor. I think you are sorely mistaken about race relations in America. I can't speak on the racial issues in Brazil, because I am not there and have never lived there. I have visited and I have been inside your ghettos and it ain't pretty. I've even interviewed some up and coming wannabe rappers inside the shantytowns. In fact the story I worked on was in the american hip-hop magazine Vibe.

Whoever said that rap music isn't creative is truly lacking in the history of the music. First of all rap music and hip-hop is two different things. Second of all Rap music is not a SOLEY a Black invention, in fact the Puerto Ricans in the Bronx helped this creation come about along with Jamaican artist known as Reggae artist. Please research before speaking so uninformed. And Hip-Hop is seen as a culture it has reached far more people than I know Bossa Nova and Samba has. You go to any corner of this beautiful earth and you will find the influence of Hip-Hop. From Bosnia, Isreal, Japan, UK, India, and yes even Brazil, to Africa and so on. This music has joined more cultures together than any other kind of music. So before you so sarcastically disrespect a culture understand it. Again Hip-Hop and Rap music are not the same. And the music is extremely creative, with some very poweful artist. Lauryn Hill, Common, Erykah Badu, Nas, Jay Z, Biggie, Tupac, Jill Scott, Talib Kweli, The Roots, Dead Prez, Run DMC, LL Cool J, KRS1, 50 Cents, Eminem, Dr. Dre, Snoop, and the list goes on and on and on.

Lastly this isn't about whose better than anyone else. But clearly you ave no clue about the contributions that Blacks have made to the American culture. I am sure you are using something in your household invented by a Black American. For instance the lawn sprinker used to spray grass with water, ironing board, Guess who the "Real McCoy" was coined after, yep a Black inventor, the variation on classical music known as regime Black again, the perm or relaxer that women use to straighten their hair, yes a Black woman Madame CJ Walker, the sanitary belt which is known now as the seat belt in cars, to remove catarcts from the eyes, and so on. How about you go here and read some, just because you may not be educated on what contributions Blacks have made to this world besides music, sports, and movies you may be using. Essence Magazine, Ebony, Jet, Black Enterprise all exsisted way before Raca came out.

http://www.blackinventionsmuseum.com/

Again this all about educating ourselves.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 8:50 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Not to mention Jazz musicians, the greatest of all time were all Black Americans. We could go on for days. I don't knock the contributions of Brazilians, but let's not be so hasty and speak ill about things we do not know. It's better to educate there are a plethora of webites on the internet to better educate all of us on different cultures. I am not sure of the racial climate with Black Brazilians, I've only read and heard stories, none of which I've witnessed first hand. I however have lived in America and this isn't the 1960's, we are at least trying to better ourselves and we have come a long way.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 8:55 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Mark E. Dean was born on March 2, 1957 in Jefferson City, Tennessee. Dean knew from a child that technology would play a major role in his life and wanted to work for IBM. In elementary school, he excelled in math in the grades 1 to 4, and was taking the same math courses as the older children. Building his first computer, radio and amplifier during high school, Dr. Dean went on to obtain his bachelor's degree from the University of Tennessee, his Masters at Florida Atlantic University, and his Ph.D. from Stanford University. Dr. Dean has been working for IBM since 1980 and was named an IBM Fellow. He holds more than 20 US patents including three of IBM's original nine PC patents.

Dr. Dean's PC patents include those geared toward allowing people to add new devices to their personal computers - simplifying the way printers, scanners or graphics are added, or devising a technology friendly to vendors who build plug-ins. Many of his patents are in the area of new features such as a set of graphics so that elements - pictures on the screen - are cleaner.

Dr. Mark E. Dean is one of the scientists responsible for creating the computer technology currently being used in more than 40 million personal computers produced each year. In 1998, a team led by Dr. Dean produced the 1 GHz chip (which would be something like a Pentium 1,000 but faster), which contains 1 million transistors and will eventually be applied to microprocessors. The 1 GHz chip's potential is limitless

and he is a Black American haha. Ok I'm done I just wanted to prove a point. No one is better than or worst than we all contribute to the world good and bad. I know Brazilians has some the greatest writers of all time, and where would we be without the watches if a Brazilian hadn't invented the wrist watch and the list goes on.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:00 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Oh and my response was to Liz. And there are Black women who don't have to get their hair permed or straightened as you say and besides the average Black perms her hair maybe 3 times a year. So I can see that as every other day haha! Cleary you are misinformed or I am misreading you. Also in America some of our White women get their hair permed or straightened from curly so it's not exclusive to Blacks, Latins do as well as Asians in America.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:05 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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I HAVE PROOF THAT AMERICA'S BLACK POPULATION IS WAY BIGGER THEN BRAZIL'S BLACK POPULATION FOR EXAMPLE BRAZIL ONLY HAS ONE PREDOMINANTLY BLACK CITY AND THATS SALVADOR BUT THE U.S ON THE OTHER HAND HAS ALOT OF PREDOMINANTLY BLACK CITIES LIKE EAST L.A,DETROIT,OAKLAND,ATLANTA,NEW ORLEANS,BATON ROUGE,WESTSIDE OF CHICAGO,BALTIMORE,WASHINGTON DC,ANNAPOLIS,PARTS OF NEW YORK NOW THATS JUST FROM THE TOP OF MY HEAD PLUS I HAVE VISITED THOSE CITIES SO I KNOW AND ANOTHER THANG CITIES LIKE NEW YORK AND MIAMI HAVE A LARGE CARIBBEAN POPULATION AND WE ALL KNOW THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE FROM THE CARIBBEAN ARE EITHER BLACK OR MIXED AND VERY FEW OF THEM ARE WHITE.SO THERE IS MY PROOF THAT AMERICA HAS MORE BLACKS THEN BRAZIL.I WOULD EVEN GO AS FAR AS TO SAY BRAZIL HAS MORE JAPANESE AND ITALIANS THEN BLACKS

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:02 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Loco

Newbie

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Oh my God!

Do you know why only 6% of the brazilians are black? Because the government ask they!

Many people can be black and say that they arent.

Race in Brazil its a really crazy thing, I even saw white people sayng that they were "morenos".

But many people in Brazil try to be "more" white" than black.

Lets think....6 million of europeans came to Brazil since 1825, in this time 4 million of africans "came" too.

Many of the europeans had sex wirh black woman but they had white children with white girls too.

2 millions of the blacks died few years later, most of them were men.

The white and "pardo" population are the predominant in Brazil.

If you use the ONE DROPP OF RULE in Brazil you could say that Brazil have the second bigest black population of the world, but if you dont use it you could only say that Brazil have the second bigest population with "black oring".

Brazil is 50% white, 40% pardo, 6% black, 3% yellow and 1% others (Im not sure if it is right).

But I believe that Brazil is 40% white, 40% pardo, 16% black and 4% others.

I read in a magazine that 30% of brazilians are pure white and 20% are pure black.

I dont know why we are talking about this...its too crazy to talk about races and numbers in Brazil....Im going to stop here...hehehehehhe

Eta...q locura!

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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:02 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP

Patinho

Junior Member

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Liz-

I think you are the same Liz that lives near me. I too see the prejudice that goes on here. Not just against one color, but everyone here seems very divided.

Sometimes not divided in a bad way.... maybe a cultural way, but more often than not, those cultures collide accidentally.

In our area it is very concentrated... and separated. Mixed race neighborhoods are rare.

This is a major problem in our city. There are a few others similiar to ours... Nashville and St. Louis are the first that I think of.

Anyway.. I agree with the "main dish" sentence. But I hope I can restore some of your faith by saying that not all of America is this bad. Our city is an exception

Of course, if this is not the same "Liz"..... then forget everything I just said.

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"Quem quer viver faz magica"

--Guimaraes Rosa

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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 1:30 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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@Liz - Please! Racism is manifested in Bahia by the almost completely white secondary schools in Bahia. By the almost completely white faculdades. By the fact that the low self-esteem in Bahia has a people that represents 80% of the population having little to no say in the government of that state.

Racism has nothing to do with how YOU are treated.

In the early days of the American south African-Americans were docile, sweet, friendly and smiled and welcomed everyone regardless of their race. The southern whites insisted that their 'darkies' (you call them 'neguinhos') were happy. They ALSO accepted their state of being second-class citizens without putting up a fight.

People can be friendly and still oppressed.

If there was not the pent-up anger among Afro-Brazilians you would not have had the success of Ile-Aye, Olodum, DiDa, the magazine RACA, grupo Stephen Biko, Ara-Ketu, Cidade Negra, the Diasporan Center in Pelourinho and many other spokespersons for the Afro-Brazilian pride and anger.

It was only until recent that the majority of 'blocos' in Salvador required a photograph so that all black people would be excluded from particpating.

In the United States when two black people meet each other and they are the only ones around they go out of their way to greet each other. You might now know this because you are white but I observe how in Brazil an Afro-Brazilian in a group of whites will drop their eyes or turn away from another black person when they meet them.

I really don't thing that many whites in Brazil appreciate the growing effects of all-white 'novelas', daily negative images of blacks in the newspaper, and the lack of role models and what this has done to the black population in Brazil.

I'll repeat...the last two reports out of O Globo will disagree with you. Afro-Brazilians (including so-called "mulattoes" with the same education and level of skills are still being excluded from managerial positions and still being paid approximately 65% of the salary of whites.

I also don't know which black doctor you went to or which city you were in but I find it difficult to believe that African-Americans in a doctors waiting room find the time to show 'hate' towards you for being white. ALL OF THEM. I know my people and that is difficult to believe. On the streets of Philadelphia homeless whites (yes...we have many of them) will beg from a black person before begging from a white person because we tend to have softer hearts towards towards the disadvantaged. In out meetings, African-Americans always discuss how we are sometimes more accepting of other people (whites and asians) than even our own people.

But if you did really experience this then let me apologize for the behavoiur of a small part of my people. Try it again. There are many white Brazilians in Philadelphia and we have surrounded them with friendship. They always attend our concerts, poetry readings and festivals. And we African-Americans are always amazed to meet 'white' people who are funky and have a sense of culture.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:36 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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@Liz - I just read the second page of your posts and I have no words.

You are naive and know little about African-Americans and less about american society and show signs of the same shallow racism as whites here.

The Afro-Brazilians activists use the African-Americans as a model for organization. We have been successful in combating racism. The theme of Carnaval in 1994 - was BLACK AMERICA - LAND OF BLACK DREAMS.

Afro-Brazilians want to be doctors, lawyers, nurses, CEOs, architects, engineers, not only known for waving their asses for sordid tourists and playing the berimbau and selling acarajé for 1 real.

And one of the biggest industries in Brazil is 'mega-hair'. You know what that is.

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:03 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

stark114

Newbie

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<>

Can any Blacks is Brazil speak on this? I've heard the opposite it true. Liz, if white skin is preferred in Brazil, why would you expect poor treatment from Bahians?

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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:15 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Marqueaseazy, the only proof you have is your oppressive Brazilian government. The truth of the matter is that the Unitd Nations has told Brazil that they lack an effective system to monitor the different ethnic make-ups in their census queries. For example in the United States they have added "Bi-racial" which means a person made-up of two racial groups, on the side the person is asked to print which two racial groups their parents are. Hence Black and White, or Puerto Rican and Black or even Japanese and White. This box isn't for just people who are mixed with Black. In Brazil the call "bi-racial" people "pardos" meaning NOT Black or White, which is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE. If not neither than how the hell did you get here. It was a big convern of everyones in the last census in the United States that people would choose bi-racial" who weren't by the government standards. What they then say is your biological parents, and grandparents thats it. Now I have you know that the average Black person in the United States has WHITE in thier family. This is a known fact. I think you are really speaking out of your ass Marqueseazy.

The truth of the matter is Brazil's numbers can't be trusted with a faulty system for recovering them. So perhaps talking about race in Brazil like always is futile because some of you seem to believe it doesn't exsist, while your Blacks there are far less educated and given a fair chance than any other Black in other countries. In fact your shit tetters on third-world treatment. I'd like to see some of money borrowed from American Banks used to get a proper system. We are such bad people we US citizens, but yet in still Brazil borrows to no end.

To Patinho, one small ass town is NOT indicative of all of AMERICA. You need to get out more. There are parts of America that is void of any Whites, same goes for Blacks etc. I still feel most of you speak out of your ass and have never been past your "little town" mentality.

Racism, classism, and every other ism exsist in Brazil and for a country the prides itself on "racial harmony" you sure do have a lot of poor, and your governments lack to prove to outside countries that you indeed are the paradise of racial harmony, it's as crock of bull. The daspareties between the rich and poor is so devasting I pray your economy never gets a depression. Cause then the truth shall be set free and you will see just how racial harmonyed you really are.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 6:02 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Liz

Newbie

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Hey, it looks like only Patinho KNOWS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, BECAUSE HE LIVES IN THE SAME CITY.

Besides, yes, as one of you said "maybe I didn't read what Liz said". You definetely didn't.

RACISM AGAINST BLACKS, AGAINST WHITES, YELLOWS OR REDS, ARE ONLY DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE SAME POISONED UGLY COIN THAT SHOULD BE BURNT LIKE THE RING IN THE LORD OF THE RINGS MOVIE.

PATINHO KNOWS WHAT I MEAN. I AM TALKING ABOUT HAVING FELT PREJUDICE AGAINST ME, MYSELF, A WHITE PERSON, FOR BEING IN A PREDOMINANTLY COLORED POPOLATION IN TOWN, AS WELL AS IN RESTAURANTS AND MEDICAL CLINICS, SOMETHING I NEVER FELT WHERE I LIVED IN BRAZIL.

ABOUT BRAZIL:

If there's little black population, there's little white people as well. EVERYONE IS A ONE AND ONLY MIXED RACE. Almost everyone has a mixing of race in their families in Brazil. I AM NOT GUESSING. I HAVE SEEN THAT LIVING THERE FOR MORE THAN 3 DECADES. In all social levels.

THAT IS MY EXPERIENCE. MAYBE NOT YOURS.

AGAIN, PATINHO KNOWS WHAT I MEAN BECAUSE HE LIVES IN THE SAME PLACE.

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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:49 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Liz, you are a sad case. You still use the word "colored" in America and you wonder why some may not like you. No Black person wants to be called "colored" that shit went out with the civil rights uproar. Get a clue, read a book, and if you are going to live in the America at least have the respect to learn English both written and spoken. In this country every person needs to defend him or herself. Why should someone else speak for you, you obviously made assumptions. If you would've said "from where I live, this is what goes on" no you made sweeping statements about all of America. Don't speak where you can't backup. I honestly don't think you have a clue and your sentences are incoherent to me.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:08 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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To be honest everyone is making good points. But you have to know people are going to defend where they come from. I would still like to hear from a Black Brasilian and not a White one on this matter. It would seem to me that only they can really answer our questions. But this is cyber space so anyone can lie and say what they are. I guess when I go to visit I will get a better idea of what's the energy like in Salvador da Bahia.

Everyone has argues thier sides nicely. Just keep the insults down. I would hope we are all adults on here.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:20 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Loco

Newbie

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Brazil racism is not like the US.

Why we dont have Ku Klux Klan (I dont know the name of this shit) here?

Why we didnt had apartheid here?

Our "apartheid" is social, not racial.

Most of white brazilians dont hate blacks, buy they get worry if they find one in a empty street at night.

You dont know how is to live in one of the most dangerous country of the world, and in the jails blacks are the majority because of their social problems.

I know that there is some brazilians who hates blacks, but there is no strong racist groups here, I only heard about skinheads in São Paulo...

Why there is no strong racist group in a country with more whites than England and the second black population of the world?

Its should have one...at least...

You can say a lot of things...but Brazil racism is not like the US one.

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SEI LÁ

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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:54 am on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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THIS IS FOR THE GUEST WHO WAS REFERRING TO ME FIRST OFF I NEVER SAID THAT BLACK AMERICANS WERENT MIXED WITH WHITE IN I KNOW ALOT OF BIRACIALS SINCE I AM ONE MYSELF I AM BLACK/BRITISH,AND NATIVE AMERICAN WHAT I WAS SAYING IS THAT OUR COUNTRY'S POPULATION OF PEOPLE OF AFRICAN DESCENT WAY OUTNUMBERS BRAZIL.HERE'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE BRAZIL'S BLACK POPULATION IS SO SMALL THAT BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS DONT EVEN EXIST THERE I CAN GUARANTEE BRAZIL DOES NOT HAVE THEIR OWN VERSION OF HARLEM BUT IN AMERICA MOST MAJOR CITIES HAVE ONE BUT YOU'LL BE HARD PRESSED TO FIND ONE AND BRAZIL IS THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT I HAVE BEEN TO THAT HAS BLACK PEOPLE BUT NO BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS.AMERICA HAS THEM,LONDON TOO,AND EVEN HAVANA,CUBA HAS PREDOMINANTLY BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS I KNOW SINCE I VISITED THERE.ANOTHER DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AMERICA AND BRAZIL IS THAT IN AMERICA A MIXED PERSON WILL STILL ACKNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS BLACK BUT IN BRAZIL A MIXED PERSON IS ASHAMED OF HIS BLACK BLOOD AND WILL DENY HE HAS ANY AND WILL EVEN TRY TO PASS FOR WHITE.I AM MIXED BUT I STILL PUT DOWN BLACK ON ANY APPLICATION FORM BECAUSE I EMBRACE MY BLACK HERITAGE I DONT TRY TO HIDE IT LIKE MOST BLACK BRAZILIANS DO.BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POINT IS THAT BAHIA IS THE ONLY PREDOMINANTLY BLACK STATE IN BRAZIL ALL THE OTHER BRAZILIAN STATES ARE PREDOMINANTLY WHITE SO OFCOURSE WHITES IN BRAZIL WAY OUTNUMBER BLACKS SO BRAZIL IS FAR FROM BEING THE COUNTRY WITH THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION IN THE WORLD I CAN NAME A BUNCH OF COUNTRIES WITH WAY MORE BLACK PEOPLE THEN BRAZIL AND HERE THEY ARE THE U.S,JAMAICA,HAITI,CUBA,THE BAHAMAS,TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO,BELIZE,PANAMA,COLOMBIA,AND THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC,ENGLAND,AND FRANCE AND THOSE COUNTRIES ARENT EVEN IN AFRICA.BECAUSE OF BRAZIL'S POLICY OF WHITENING THE POPULATION BRAZIL IS GONNA END UP LIKE ARGENTINA ONE DAY WHERE BLACKS WILL BE EXTINCTED FROM BRAZIL.DID YALL KNOW THERE WAS A LAW WHICH I THINK STILL APPLIES TODAY THAT EXCLUDES BLACKS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES FROM EMMIGRATING TO BRAZIL THATS WHY THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT ENCOURAGED EUROPEAN MIGRATION TO MAKE BRAZIL'S POPULATION WHITIER CAUSE THEY DIDNT WANT BRAZIL TO BECOME ANOTHER HAITI GOD FORBID THOSE RACIST WHITE POTUGUESE WOULD NEVER WANT THAT WAS THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT'S WORST NIGHTMARE TO HAVE A BLACK MAJORITY BUT I GUESS THEY FIXED THAT SINCE IF YOU GO BRAZIL TODAY YOUR MORE LIKELY TO SEE BLOND HAIRED BLUE EYED BRAZILIANS THEN A BRAZILIAN WITH BLACK SKIN.EVER WATCHED BRAZILIAN TELEVISION LETS JUST SAY ITS SO WHITE IT MAKES ABC LOOK LIKE BET LOL

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:18 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Jo

Newbie

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Guest: "So to say the numbers are small is not correct just as to say the numbers are high. No one really knows and that's very sad. Brazil has so many labels for their people especially if they aren't white. It's really a shame and I see Brazil as worst than the United States on this matter."

And this is one of my pet peeves about the U.S. Why in the world do we need to classify everyone according to "race"? I always write "human" in the blank for race as I think it's ridiculous to need to know for a driver's license, for example. There's a picture, for God's sake!

The last U.S. census was a problem because people who were nicely mixed didn't know what blank to fill in. I think Brazil's attitude toward race is healthier. People are polite to one another in nearly all cases, regardless of race. Not so in the U.S. Also, of course, Brazil never had laws on the books segregating according to race...at least to my knowledge.

I do sometimes see evidence of "marrying" white, though,....the idea of mixing with a lighter human to lighten children...is embedded in the culture and the culture of other Latin American countries as well.

But I also see pride in color. One African-Brazilian hairdresser told me she's proud of her color. I'm happy she feels that way. And another very well-educated, wealthy, very white Brazilian is proud that her father was a mix of Indian, African, Portuguese, and Italian.

I think mixes are great, healthy, and the only place for a question on race should be at the doctor's office where they need that information to know susceptibility to certain diseases.

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Total Posts: 8 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:26 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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THE BLACK RACE IS ALMOST NONEXISTENCE IN BRAZIL SINCE THE WHITENING OF BRAZIL WITH THE MASSIVE EUROPREAN MIGRATION OF THE GERMANS,PORTUGUESE,SPANIARDS,POLISH,RUSSIANS AND ITALIANS PLUS ADD THAT TO THE FACT THAT BLACK COUPLES ARE VERY RARE IN BRAZIL CAUSE 99.99% OF AFRO BRAZILIANS MARRY OUTSIDE THEIR RACE TO WHITE PEOPLE.AND WHEN THEIR KIDS ARE BORN THEY WILL GROW UP TO MARRY CAUCASIANS UNTIL THEIR AFRICAN ANCESTRY IS TOTALLY WIPED OUT THATS WHAT HAPPENED IN ARGENTINA AND THATS WHATS HAPPENING TO BRAZIL.THERE WILL BE ONE DAY WHEN THAT 6% OF BLACKS WILL TURN INTO LESS THEN 1% AS BRAZIL'S WHITE POPULATION JUST QUADRUPLES AND BRAZIL IS EASILY LATIN AMERICA'S WHITEST COUNTRY ALONG WITH ITS NEIGHBORING WHITE COUNTRY ARGENTINA.THE ONLY PREDOMINANTLY BLACK COUNTRIES OF SOUTH AMERICA IS THE GUINEAS AND THE CARIBBEAN COAST OF COLOMBIA.I WOULD SAY THE ONLY SIZABLE NON WHITE GROUP IN BRAZIL ARE THE JAPANESE SINCE I THINK THEIR NUMBERS ARE CLOSE TO A MILLION IN BRAZIL.I BET BRAZIL HAS LESS THEN 100,000 BLACKS AND NEIGHBORING URUGUAY HAS WAY MORE BLACKS THEN THAT.AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE WAY MORE ADVANCED THEN AFRO BRAZILIANS TOO.HAVE YALL EVER HEARD OF BLACK COLLEGES IN BRAZIL NO BECAUSE THEY DONT EXIST.WHITES IN BRAZIL HAVE THEIR HOLIDAYS AND FESTIVITIES TO CELEBRATE THEIR WHITE HERITAGE LIKE OCTOBERFEST IN SANTA CATARINA.BLACKS IN BRAZIL HAVING NOTHING THATS EXCLUSIVELY THEIRS NOT EVEN CARNAVAL CAUSE EVEN CARNAVAL IS PREDOMINANTLY WHITE.CUBA'S AFRICAN CULTURE IS WAY STRONGER THEN BRAZIL'S PLUS BLACK CUBANS ACTUALLY EMBRACES THEIR BLACKNESS UNLIKE THESE UNCLE TOM BRAZILIANS WHO DENY THEIRS.AFRO CUBANS ARE VERY PRO BLACK AND WITHOUT THEM CUBAN MUSIC WOULD HAVE NO RHYTHM.BLACK CUBANS ARE SOME OF THE BEST SPORTS ATHLETES IN THE WORLD FROM BASEBALL AND BOXING TO VOLLEYBALL.CUBA AND THE CARIBBEAN HAVE THE STRONGEST AFRICAN CULTURE OF ANY NON AFRICAN COUNTRY.IF YOU WANT TO GO TO A COUNTRY WITH STRONG AFRICAN TIES WITHOUT EVEN GOING TO AFRICA THEN GO TO THE CARIBBEAN WHERE BLACK CULTURE IS EVIDENT EVERYWHERE THERE FROM THE LOCAL PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY BLACK UNLIKE BRAZIL, TO THE CLOTHES THEY WEAR,TO THE MUSIC TO THE FOOD.AFRO CUBAN JAZZ AND REGGAE IS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT.NOW ONTO DIVERSITY WHEN IT COMES TO TELEVISION THE U.S HAS A BROAD RANGE OF DIVERSE SHOWS THAT CATERS TO BLACKS AND HISPANICS LIKE MY WIFE AND KIDS,THE GEORGE LOPEZ SHOW,ONE ON ONE,HALF AND HALF,COSBYS,FAMILY MATTERS,THE BROTHERS GARCIA,FRESH PRINCE,THE HUGHLEYS,THE STEVE HARVY SHOW,AND THATS NOT JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG NOW BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK SITCOMS THE ONLY TIME YOU SEE A BLACK PERSON ON BRAZILIAN PROGRAMMING IS WHEN THEY ARE MAIDS OR BUTLERS FOR RICH WHITE FAMILIES ON WHAT THEY CALL NOVELAS CAUSE BLACKS IN BRAZIL STILL GOT THAT YES MASTER MENTALITY RACIAL DEMOCRACY MY AZZ ITS MORE LIKE A SLAVE DEMOCRACY AND BLACKS IN BRAZIL JUST EXCEPT THEIR ROLES CAUSE THEY DONT HAVE A VOZ ATIVA AS BRAZILIANS SAY.

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:29 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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You know what another pet peeve of the US is loaning money to countries like Brazil.

Jo, let me explain something to you no matter how lame your claim is. Race is needed in the breakdown process. Let me break down the USA for you. Black colleges, prodominately Hispanic colleges (which did you hear the news Hispanics are the largest minority in America now, there are 36.1 million Blacks and 37 million Hispanics, which is as per our Census Bureau. I'm sure some uproar will happen on both ends) anyways the reason why America breakdown races is because MONEY is delegated to certain communities. You know like Black colleges get more money if say Atlanta is proved to have more Blacks than any other race, etc etc. We know your freaking human, BUT if we looked away from RACE and went solely on Humans then some of your Portuguese ancestors and some of my White ones wouldn't classify as human but inhuman for the shit they did. Now my real point is the whole freaking medical community would never excel. Why because some ethnic groups are prown to having one of kind of health problem over another. Also we use race also for statical facts, to keep accounts and we choose to. The reason is so we can see where the freaking justice system breaks down, and the trends of an ethnic group. You may not like it doesn't mean it doesn't work. See we get to monitor if laws need to be put into place so that you immigrants and miniorites need help getting jobs, education, loans, housing. See we have laws we don't tolerate discrimation. Thats why people get to sue in America. We can't turn down people based on the color of their skin, it's against the law. These laws were put into place try and right the wrongs this country has done to certain people.

Brazil does have racsim like Marqueseazy said. I heard about your tv's, magazines, movies, and shit the city life. Man at least the immigrants and miniorities in America are allowed to be represented. I mean Latinos have thier own magazine, Blacks have theres, Asians, and every other group the flees to America with a fucking dream. Call us what you like but I don't see people not trying to come here. People have such a negative tone for Americans but are fucking quick to move here and populate our fucking states. And we allow you to. I will have to research if there is a law prohibiting Blacks from other countries from becoming citizens in Brazil. That I don't know but if it is that speaks volumes about your country compared to ours.

People keep saying America is worst then why the fuck come here? I really wish Immigration was tighter on checking people out to see if they have such communist views about our country. Why come here and use us for our hard earned money? I mean your country can't be that perfect if your leaving it. Give me a fucking break man!

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:45 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Well according to the Brazilian government that 6% of people who say they are Black in Brazil is about 7 million people, so I don't know where you get 100,000 from. I am strictly going on articles on this site and on that Brazilian government site.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:54 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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Since when did Marqueseazy become brazilian?

For someone that never even touched his feet on this land he is very sure of his convictions.

(Stop pushing around with this half baked idea, it is not true, and is starting to stress my patience and cordial words as well)

To "guest"

You know why people immigrate to U.S.A., it is not because they have any kind of love to the american way of life, but because they need money. To enlighten you, they do ask if you have any kind of "comunist" view of the world, and a few other degrading and stupid questions. Also the so called immigration law that you are talking about, was extinguished before the IIWW, earlier than U.S. own actions on this matter.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:26 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Loco

Newbie

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Sorry Marquez, but you are crazy.

I live in Porto Alegre, a city where 80% of the population is white and there is few mixed people, but here there is 300000 blacks too.

Porto Alegre have more blacks than all Brazil together?! hehehehehehehehehehehhehehe

Our country have a big black population, stop with this shit ok! You sound like a racist.

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SEI LÁ

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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:34 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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To Ze, darling you could never "enlighten" me. I know the very reason why immigrants come to America, and as an American I find it pretty sad that people and disrespect my country and still find a reason to lie to get here. It's not to better our country or to help us, it's use our resources. But such is life, oh and the questions that are asked aren't "stupid" we have every right to know who you are. Remember it is you seeking to enter here, not the other way around. I've been asked similar questions by your Brazilian government, so let's not call the kettle black, shall we.

Oh and it wasn't me who mentioned the antiquated laws that didn't allow Blacks into Brazil. I simply stated I'd never heard this, perhaps you should re-read what was said and then gather your contentions. Other than that this diatribe is futile and senseless.

I'm still waiting on a Black Brazilian's perspective. But alas that seems fruitless as well. Don't expect me to defend my country. You better hope to everything Brazil never ends up in a financial ruins like Argentina, because Americans are ruthless when it comes to their money. We will invest but never without a return on something. Shit that would be hilarious if we ended-up owning Brazil lol. Ok no more jokes. I'm done, this is tired. I love my country and I have much respect for Brazils and Brazilians. Just don't expect me to spit back when you diss America. Capiche.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:40 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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PORTO ALEGRE DOSENT HAVE 300,000 BLACKS ITS MORE LIKE ITS JUST 300 LOL

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:56 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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I think we all need to move on. This whole discussion has turned into a whole new topic. Who cares anymore? I mean everyone keeps on insulting eachother. Who is better who is not. Please no one is perfect. Get over yourselves

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 8:01 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Joe Gahona

Newbie

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Ze said: "You know why people immigrate to U.S.A., it is not because they have any kind of love to the american way of life, but because they need money."

I'm sure most immigrants who come to the U.S. prefer their original "way of life" to the U.S. way of life, just as I'm sure the average American prefers his American way of life to the way of life in, say, China. It's human to prefer the way of life that you're familiar with.

So I'm not sure what your point is. If the American "way of life" is unbearable for someone (even though he is making more money here), he will leave. Those who do stay? Obviously their indifference/dislike of the American way of life is overridden by their desire to live here anyway.

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Total Posts: 13 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:28 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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I WOULD RATHER LIVE IN THE PROJECTS SOMEWHERE IN QUEENS THEN LIVE IN A BRAZILIAN FAVELA THATS FULL OF DISEASES LIKE DENGUE AND NOT TO MENTION ALL THE VIOLENCE WHERE THE DRUG TRAFFICKERS ARE ALWAYS IN A SHOOTOUT WAR WITH THE COPS.PLUS I'VE HEARD ABOUT ALL THE OLD WHITE GRINGOS WHO ARE MOSTLY EUROPEAN WHO GO TO BRAZIL TO PAY TO HAVE SEX WITH MINORS ESPECIALLY DURING CARNAVAL.BRAZIL IS A PARADISE FOR CHILD MOLESTERS AND WHITE BRAINWASHED SELF HATING BLACKS

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:26 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 | IP

Patinho

Junior Member

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To Guest-

You know, I really like this forum. I like the people here, the interesting discussions and sometimes, even the arguments that always end with us learning something new from one another.

But then someone like you comes along. Now we all know that the issue of "race" is a very sensitive subject that must be handled with care... that aside, did you even read my post?

You said "To Patinho, one small ass town is NOT indicative of all of AMERICA. You need to get out more. There are parts of America that is void of any Whites, same goes for Blacks etc. I still feel most of you speak out of your ass and have never been past your "little town" mentality. "

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with my post. I don't even know where to begin.

First, Memphis is a major metropolitan area with a population reaching nearly 2 million inhabitants. Is that a "small ass town"?

Second, I get out just fine. If you would read my post again. I didn't say that all of America is like this. Hell, I even stated it with "But I hope I can restore some of your faith by saying that not all of America is this bad. Our city is an exception."

When I was talking to Liz in my post I said several times "here" and "our city". How the fuck does that imply "ALL" of America? I think YOU are the one that needs to learn english.

Then you go on attacking Liz for her use of the word "colored" and the fact that she felt a little uncomfortable in her situation.

The woman comes to a forum to share her experiences and opinions and she gets attacked for it. What kind of a person are you? That is what a forum is for, dumbass.

So what if she uses the word "colored"? I know some.. uuumm gee... what word should I use here.. I might get into trouble.... oh... here we go.... I know some "persons of African ancestry" that don't like the term "black", but have no problem with "colored".

I have several black freinds. When I hang out with them they call me "nigga" (as in slang for guy or freind), and have no qualms with me using the word freely with them either. However I do not use the word with everyone, due to the fact that this word coming from a white guy can be highly offensive to some. My point is, that "colored" being offensive is a matter of personal opinion.

I am sure Liz did not mean to use the word offensively. To the contrary, I found nothing in her post to be offensive. The girl was just trying to share her thoughts freely and openly... then a net nazi like you has to attack her. You make me sick. (No offense to our fellow member "Sick"

And as far as "don't speak what you can't back up". People can say whatever they want. Making mistakes and learning from them is part of life. Get over it.

I am finished with you. I find your posts to be insulting and they do not contribute a thing to this forum except bitteness and ignorance. If you continue to spout stupid things from that hole in your face, I will have no choice but to ignore you.

So in conclusion. Please try to read my short and simple post again. I used small words, so I am sure you should not have a problem comprehending it by the 3rd or 4th time. I eagerly await your intelligent response.

Have a nice day, sir.

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"Quem quer viver faz magica"

--Guimaraes Rosa

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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 12:21 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

Patinho

Junior Member

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P.S.- Grow some balls and pick a name... you are giving all of the other "Guest" posters a bad image.

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"Quem quer viver faz magica"

--Guimaraes Rosa

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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 12:28 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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BRAZILIANS ARE THE SOUTH AMERICAN VERSION OF REDNECKS THATS HOW RACIST THEY ARE BECAUSE BRAZILIANS HAVE SAYINGS THAT BLACK WOMEN ARE ONLY GOOD FOR BEING COOKS IN THE KITCHEN.SOME OF MY FRIENDS WHO HAVE VISITED BRAZIL BEFORE SAID WHEN THEY WENT TO HIGH RISE BUILDINGS THEY WERE TO ENTER THE BACK WHERE THE MAIDS ENTERED EVEN THOUGH THEY WERENT MAIDS BUT BUSINESS PEOPLE.WHEN NELSON MANDELA RETURNED TO SOUTH AFRICA AFTER HIS TRIP TO BRAZIL HE DENOUNCED BRAZIL AS A RACIAL DEMOCRACY SAYING IT COULDNT BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.THE SMALL AFRO BRAZILIAN MINORITY IS TOO SCARED TO STAND UP TO BRAZIL'S MASSIVE WHITE MAJORITY.BRAZILIAN TELEVISION SHOULD BE CALLED WET WHITE ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION.THE BLACK POPULATION IN BRAZIL IS SO SMALL THAT IF YOUR AN AFRICAN AMERICAN AND YOU GO THERE YOU STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB AND IT WOULD BE A VERY UNCOMFORTABLE FEELING NOW A WHITE AMERICAN WOULD EASILY BLEND IN BRAZIL AND IF YOUR JAPANESE TOO.SO HOW CAN BRAZIL HAVE THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION IN THE WORLD WHEN MOST BRAZILIANS ARENT EVEN BLACK AT ALL 94% OF BRAZILIANS ARE NONBLACK I THINK THE PEOPLE WHO DID THAT B.S CENSUS MUST BE SMOKING CRACK BECAUSE THEY ARE OVER EXAGGERATING CAUSE BRAZIL DOES NOT HAVE MORE BLACKS THEN THE U.S,AFRICA,OR THE CARIBBEAN HECK NOT EVEN EUROPE CAUSE EVEN LONDONHAVE THEIR BLACK COMMUNITY AND THATS BRIXTON THATS WHERE THE JAMAICAN DESCENDENTS LIVE BUT A BLACK COMMUNITY IN BRAZIL DOSENT EVEN EXIST BRAZIL DOSENT HAVE THEIR OWN VERSION OF HARLEM NOT EVEN THE FAVELAS CAUSE MOST FAVELADOS ARE POOR WHITE TRASH AND POOR MESTICOS FROM THE NORTHEAST BUT NOT BLACK.BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK ENREPEUNERS LIKE THE U.S HAS AND BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK HISTORY MONTH LIKE THE U.S BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK BEAUTY PAGENTS LIKE THE U.S BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK COLLEGES LIKE THE U.S BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK PROGRAMMING ON TV LIKE THE U.S AND BRAZIL HAS NO IMPORTANT BLACK POLITICIANS WORKING NEXT TO THE PRESIDENT LIKE THE U.S HAS WITH COLLIN POWELL AND CONDOZOLA RICE WORKING SIDE BY SIDE WITH BUSH SI HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT BRAZIL DOES NOT PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH THEY DO NOT PRACTICE DIVERSITY SO THEY HAVE NO RIGHT IN CALLING THEMSELVES A RACIAL DEMOCRACY CAUSE THATS A BIG FAT LIE THERE NO EXAMPLES TO PROVE BRAZIL EVEN COMES CLOSE TO A RACIAL DEMOCRACY ATLEAST THE U.S GIVES BLACKS AND HISPANICS THE CHANCE TO COMPETE AGAINST WHITES WITH THINGS LIKE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION SO THAT IT CAN BE AN EQUAL PLAYING FIELD FOR BLACKS BUT HOPEFULLY BUSH WONT SCREW THAT UP.HOW COME BRAZIL HAD AFFIRMITIVE ACTION HUH BECAUSE THE WHITE POLITICIANS IN BRASILIA WOULD NEVER LET THAT HAPPEN.IN BRAZIL THE WHITE MAN ONLY USES BLACK WOMEN FOR SEX AND FOR BEING THEIR MAIDS AND HOUSECLEANERS JUST LIKE SLAVERY DAYS ITS 2003 BUT BRAZIL IS STILL STUCK IN 1803

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:11 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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The majority of Liz's post was not a sharing of experiences but a JUDGEMENT of people.

There is a massive difference.

She tried to reduce 450 years of African-American history to rap music.

I've read about 11 books on Brazilian history before trying to understand that country.

I challenge her to name one book on American or African-American history that she has read to try to understand this people that she judges.

I could cut and paste 4 parts of her post that were offensive.

She is probably a nice person but I don't pander to ignorance.

And I question her judgement of Tennessee. You said that you have black friends. Why are they friends with you and not with her? Introduce them to her.

I will tell you one thing about my people. We can sense snobbery in anyone. We can discern when someone has turned up their noses. When someone has a 'tude' (attitude).

And we accept anyone who even makes half an effort to accept us. 'Cause that's how we roll.

I question totally her generalization of African-Americans in Tennessee....let alone the whole of America.

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:14 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

stark114

Newbie

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But getting back to the subject, it seems to be difficult to find any Black Brazilians who will post here. Are there any Black Americans who has been down to Brazil? What were your experiences? I keep getting conflicting accounts. My brother's best friend went down to Rio 2 years ago and said that American brothers are well liked down there. But I'm not sure how much being American had to do with this. Comments?

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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:18 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Ok Patinho, it would be really hard for me to give an intelligent response when you've stepped below my level. Let's see what's your problem, you called me "dumbass" and several other things. Now if I were to step to the low level you've gone to I'd be considered even worse, because Americans ya know we are horrible to pick on the lowly. Anyways you display such primitive ways. Can't come with it so attack the very thing you say you like about this forum. First you say your done with me, then at the end of your post, you tell me you await my response. Which is it? I suggest you pick-up a book on debating, because clearly you don't know how to.

I'm entitled to my opinion. This is a free forum. I am allowed to counter, disagree with, or agree with anything posted, hence the "public" part of this forum. I read the rules before posting--there were none. Just that "Brazzil.com, doesn't take any responsibility". I choose to be under "guest" for my own reason. I could choose a name, but to be honest I rarely do read the forum, I actually do subscribe to the magazine. Besides it's MY choice. Remeber that, a name doesn't add more validity to your statement. Anyways classic behavior of a person who has no legs to stand on. Find any reason to attack, and I'm sorry if you feel I make the "other guest" look bad, that's life. Because right now you make Brasilians look kinda well, nevermind.

Liz is an adult (I hope), I would think she could speak for herself. Please don't decipher her for me, I can read and I did read your responses and hers several times before responding. I hope that makes you feel better.

Now, I won't doubt that SOME Blacks don't mind being called "colored" and I know they use the "N" word (see us White Americans are usually politically correct) amongs themselves. I find it silly, because I come from the "old school" and was big in civil rights, anyways I know it does exsist. BUT let me explain something to you, get a spot on national American TV and call ALL Blacks "colored" and see what happens. On that I rest my case. I'm a white man defending his fellow brothers and sisters. A Black person in Nashville is very different than a Black person in New York City or even Florida.

You live in a small town. 2 million is nothing compared to the 8 million where I live, or the 15 million my mother lives in. Man travel around America and get a feel for things.

The thing is I want to learn, but I've only read insults after insults. If a Black person came on here and found Liz's comments about their contribution to History and the word "colored" would you attack them too? I doubt you or your friend Liz have read a book about the history of this country you now reside in. I believe you go strictly on what you hear. Prove me otherwise.

Oh and there is no need for me to add to anything. I stand behind my previous posts as "guest". I could lay an assault of verbal attacks on you P buddy, but why? I will be the bigger person here and try and learn something.

Now I await your intelligent response.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 6:21 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

Tais

Newbie

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Hmm

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Total Posts: 8 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:28 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Two quick points

1) @MARQUESEAZY - I have many poor white friends in Brazil. Some live in favelas. They are NOT "poor white trash". They are some of the most admirable people I have ever met.

You should not use the same language as the bigots, the racists and the elitists. It makes you no different from them.

2) I will try to e-mail my black friends in Brazil to give their input. The problem is that...though some have e-mail addresses not many speak english nor read english and this site might be beyond them. There are a few in Washington D.C. and I'll e-mail them.

There are two types of African-Americans who go to Brazil. A mostly male group who are just as much part of the sexual tourism as any other group of people (we are not all noble people).

And there is a large culturally conscious group. First of all Americans tend to receive a degree of respect from Brazilians in general. These African-Americans receive much respect from Afro-Brazilians. My friends from New York had rented a house in Boca Do Rio (Salvador) where I now live. The maid who worked for them was shocked because they called her "irmá" (sister) when they referred to her. My friends were nervous about hiring a maid (they felt that they were exploiting them) but other Brazilians made it clear that these women needed the work and would welcome the chance to work for someone who actually respected them. To them she is just another sister friend.

Among our group we always use the term "irmão" (brother) when addressing other Brazilians.

But I also think that we African-Americans have to realize that the hard divide that used to exist between white and black Americans does not always exist between the various colors in Brazil. I've had some bad experiences with white Brazilians and I've had many good ones. My white friends have bent over backward and have doubled up in one bedroom just to give me a room to myself.

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:44 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

Tais

Newbie

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What I would like to know is how can someone you've never met make you sick?

There are excellent points from several people here. I did find some offensive but for the most part everyone made sense.

My parents are both Black and from Brasil. I wasn't raised in Brazil so I am afraid I can't comment.

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Total Posts: 8 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:44 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

Tais

Newbie

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Adrianerik: You have made some excellent points. I like some of the points made by others but you seem to have stay focused to the original question. I will see if my parents will come to the board and answer or I can answer for them.

My parents were raised in Salvador and moved when they had my brothers and I to London. My father actually got a job with a company there. Later he was transferred to Los Angeles California, where they still live and where I was raised. I live in Miami now. I have only been to Brasil on visits. I feel because I lack long periods there I personally can not answer some of the questions asked. My parents however may be able to give some insight. Now the conversation seems to be going upward. I would like to learn myself.

I will say my parents have always taught me that I was a Black woman with parents from Brasil. I will have to ask them why this was this way and if it had anything to do with race in Brasil. This is going to be informative on my end because I have never had this talk with my parents.

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Total Posts: 8 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:52 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

Loco

Newbie

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Marquez...you are crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brazil received more africans than all American Continent together, we have a big black population.

I live in Porto Alegre and I can say that there is 300000 black people living here.

Go to Bahia, you will find millions...

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SEI LÁ

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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:06 am on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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PEOPLE FROM BAHIA ARENT BLACK THEY ARE MESTICOS AND THEY ARE WHITES THATS A BIG DIFFERENCE I HAVE SEEN MANY BAIANOS IN NEW YORK AND NON OF THEM ARE BLACK EXPLAIN THAT HUH YOUR AVERAGE EVERYDAY BRAZILIAN HAS SNOW WHITE SKIN AND BLONDE HAIR BRAZILIANS REFLECT MORE EUROPEANS AND DEFININTLTY NOT AFRICANS IF YOU DO SEE ANOTHER BLACK PERSON IN BRAZIL HE IS PROBABLY AN AFRICAN AMERICAN TOURIST WHO'S DOWN THERE ON VACATION LIKE I SAID THE LARGEST NONBLACK GROUP IN BRAZIL ARE THE JAPANESE THERE ARE 10 TIMES MORE JAPANESE PEOPLE IN BRAZIL THEN THERE ARE BLACK PEOPLE AND THERE ARE 100 TIMES MORE WHITE PEOPLE IN BRAZIL THEN ARE BLACK PEOPLE SO IT SHOULD BE BRAZIL HAS THE SECOND LARGEST WHITE POPULATION IN THE WORLD BECAUSE YOU CAN EASILY SAY THAT THERE ARE OVER 100 MILLION WHITE PEOPLE OUT OF 175 MILLION WHICH THEIR TOTAL NATIONWIDE POPULATION IN BRAZIL

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:29 pm on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

Patinho

Junior Member

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To Guest-

Good post. I apologize for being so insulting and calling you "dumbass", etc.... You truly are the "bigger man". I guess I was just in a really bad mood.

Now... just a few points.

#1 The "finished with you" line meant that I would not throw anymore insults in future posts.

#2 I happen to think I am an excellent debator.

#3 I was refering to Liz's original post that I responded to. Not the posts that followed.

#4 The reason I said read my posts again is because you said I was saying all of America is like this. Yet, I said quite the contrary and you argued a point that I never even made.

#5 I do have a feel for America. New York City 1 year, Houston 3 years, San Diego 1 year, Huntsville 4 years and Memphis has been on and off through the years. I visit Miami, New York City, Buffalo, Little Rock, and Lexington on a regular basis. Some for business, some for pleasure. The point is, I get around plenty.

#6 As far as using the "N" word... I stay away from that completely. You do know there is a large distinction between "N" and "Nigga", right?

#7 Your statement "see us White Americans are usually politically correct" can easily be taken the wrong way. Get me?

#8 two million is big enough for me. Hell, we even have our own pro-basketball team.... shouldn't that count for something?

#9 I have never met Liz, we met on the forum just as you and I.

#10 I am in college studying to become a history teacher. I have a great respect for history. So, yes, I have read several books on American and Brazilian history, as well as other parts of the world.

# 11 You do know that I am also a Caucasion American male, right?

#12 I really wish you would log in a name, it's simple and quick, and it would be much easier responding to you in the future. I usually remember someone's past posts and it often makes it easier to talk to a person that you know a little about. Besides, I think you would be a welcome member to the forum.

ok.. so that's it. I sincerely apologize again for being so rude. That is not an example of my normal behavior.

I look forward to your response.....

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"Quem quer viver faz magica"

--Guimaraes Rosa

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Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:54 pm on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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BRAZIL MAY NOT HAVE THE KU KLUX KLAN BUT THEY GOT WHITE SKINHEADS SO THAT DOSENT MAKE IT ANY BETTER NOW THERE'S MORE PROOF THAT BRAZIL ISNT NO RACIAL DEMOCRACY

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:09 pm on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

Loco

Newbie

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I dont know what to say....this guy is too crazy.

I live in Brazil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know that here we millions of blacks.

And Brazil do not have the second white population.

1.USA, 2.Russia, 3.Germany

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SEI LÁ

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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:22 pm on Jan. 22, 2003 | IP

ELEGANTGENT

Junior Member

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MARQUESEAZY WHERE ARE YOU FROM? JUST WONDERING.

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Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:11 pm on Jan. 23, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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I AM FROM THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC BUT I AM CURRENTLY LIVING IN WASHINGTON HEIGHTS IN NEW YORK WHY

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:08 pm on Jan. 23, 2003 | IP

Alex Furtado

Newbie

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I would like to express my point of view, but my english is a nightmare. so, i you write in Portuguese, i pray i have time, someday, to traduce it, very hard to me and my poor english skills.

Bem,

A pergunta inicial desta discussão foi quanto é penoso ser negro no Brasil. Contudo, lendo as mensagens percebo uma poralização: o racismo é pior no Brasil ou nos Estado Unidos?

Quando um indíviduo chega a conclusões sobre as habilidades racionais, morais e físicas de outra pessoa baseando-se exclusivamente na observação da cor de seus cabelos, pele e nas feiçoes do seu rosto, todos concordamos, está sendo racista. Este comportamento é comum em todas as culturas, sem exceção. Ele é transmitido das gerações mais velhas para as mais novas. E serve como ideologia de justificação da superioridade daqueles que detém o poder. Ora, os portugueses e ingleses colonizadores do continente americano seriam naturalmente superiores aos seus escravos negros... Isto estaria na claro na cor da pele. Creio se fossem os negros os conquistadores, a cor da sua pele seria valorizada, e os brancos seriam discriminados como inferiores por serem brancos. Pensar diferente é pensar que os negros são gente melhor que a gente branca, o que é racismo puro.

Mas afinal, onde o racismo é mais leve, onde ele é mais exarcerbado? É interessante notar que os brasileiros ivariavelmente não negam que há racismo no Brasil mais que o racismo cá é menos violento que nos EUA. Os americanos, por seu lado, procuram desmistificar a idéia de que o Brasil é uma democracia racial, citando vários exemplos de racismo no Brasil, alguns pertinentes, outros um absurdo fruto do desconhecimento do país.

Contudo os americanos, em nenhum momento, afirmam que o racismo nos Estados Unidos é menos violento que no Brasil. Isto ocorre porque eles sabem que a verdade é justamente o inverso. Não vou citar exemplo. Basta consultar livros de história.

Para não dizer que não lancei mão de nenhum argumento, basta dizer que a população brasileira é a mais miscigenada do mundo. Não há paralelo em nenhum lugar do planeta. Será que nesta história de mistura de corpos e cultura não há espaço para o amor puro e simples, interracial? Não se pode reduzir tudo a vontade dos negros de ter filhos clarinhos ou a vontade do português de conquistar pela prenhez de índias e negras.

O Brasil é um lugar de muitos problemas. Mas não é um lugar de intolerância racial, de choques raciais sangrentos. E do nosso jeitinho, sem conflitos e com muita acomodação de opostos, estamos, aos poucos dando voz ativa a negros e mulheres. Vide o ministério do presidente Lula.

Viva o Brasil.

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Alex Furtado

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Total Posts: 1 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 6:24 pm on Jan. 23, 2003 | IP

fernandobn

Junior Member

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Marqueseasy

By IBGE an Institution in charge of the Census in Brazil, the 2000 Census says that from the population (169,872,856), (91,296,042) 53.7% are white, (10,554,336) 6% are Black, (65,318,092) 38% are Pardo (mixed). Black Baianos cannot afford a ticket to visit New York, that's why you never find any. Say that Brazilians are rednecks of South America is too hard. You do not see the issues in Brazil that black folks in US have or any other place in the world. Skinheads are a bunch of idiots that you rarely hear about in Brazil. People in Brazil are more interested in their survival day in day out and they don't hesitate to celebrate life whenever it is possible.

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Fernando B.

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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:05 pm on Jan. 23, 2003 | IP

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How hard is to be Black in Brazil

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mooseboy84

Newbie

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wow. i have read all through these post and it has been informative and interesting. this post shows how stupid the whole human construct of race is.

-

i have a question for adrianerik.

how are black americans treated there?

on tony browns journal, he had a show that talked about black americans living in brazil, and how they liked it.

gladys night, or some black singer has a huge apartment and villa in brazil. during that tony brown show, [maybe 8 or 9 years ago it was on] many of the people said it was better for them there than america.

is this because they had money? not all were rich, but had enough money to stay there.

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aslo, for everyone. how is pele treated? he is really dark skin and i dont think he can be called anything but black. or, is he special because hes a national celebrity?

and lastly, not to throw a whole wrench in the engine, but what is "white" by brazilian terms? there are those that have white skin and blue eyes and are undeniably "white" in brazil. but some of the "white" people in brazil may be considered "latino" and not white by american standards.

for instance. my mother works with a woman thats from argentina. shes considers herself to be "white", however, by american standards she would be called latino or hispanic since shes looks a little "ethnic" and has a swarthy hue, and would probably not be called "white" by most "white" people in america.

would this definition be applied to many "white" brazilians as well?

god, race is the stupidist thing, lol.

(Edited by mooseboy84 at 4:20 am on Jan. 24, 2003)

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<>

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Total Posts: 12 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:18 am on Jan. 24, 2003 | IP

Loco

Newbie

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Brazilians standards are diferent from the US, but you cant say what standard is the right one, many italians are considered white in Italy but not in US.

The white race is divided in many types like latins, anglo-saxon, aryans, russians and others.

But for many people in US latin means some1 who looks like mexican...hehehehehehe...thats true because when I say that Im latin on the internet chatrooms evry1 from US call me mexican.

I know that americans from this Forum knows the diference betwen some1 from Brazil and some1 from Mexico, but many people dont.

I have white skin (my german origin)... and brown eyes and hair(my italian)...I dont know how I would be considered in US, but if you want to call me Latin its ok, Im proud of my latin culture.

Bye

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SEI LÁ

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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:08 am on Jan. 24, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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BLACKS IN BRAZIL ARE JUST AS POOR AS BLACKS LIVING IN SOUTH AFRICA

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:54 pm on Jan. 24, 2003 | IP

ELEGANTGENT

Junior Member

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MARQUESEAZY, I ASKED YOU IN ORDER TO PROVE A POINT ABOUT YOUR COMMENTS. NO OFFENSE.

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Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:00 pm on Jan. 24, 2003 | IP

ELEGANTGENT

Junior Member

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loco, a lot of americans (white or black) are only familiar with mexicans for the most part. my idea is that there is very little exposure of other latins through the media and poor public education and segregation ( not political but by choice ). that is unless you live in south florida, or the big cities on the coast. i am in the midwest. surprizingly most people do not know nor have they heard of rio, sao paulo, bogota and on and on. although there are many ways for access, people here are geographically ignorant. it is sad but true. for many their interest lies in entertainment more than information. very few can tell between people from brazil and columbia, nigeria or madagascar, japan or china because of the exposure. one time i saw a lady ask an italian lady if she was from mexico. the italian lady was very offended and accused the american lady of racism and being predjudiced. i thought that it was highly illogical to accuse her of that. then i wondered if it was because she no gusto chicanos.

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Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:53 pm on Jan. 24, 2003 | IP

Jo

Newbie

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Elegantgent, what you say is certainly true. I, too, am a midwesterner (now living and working in the Nordeste do Brasil).

Most educated Americans, in spite of their wealth compared to other people in the world, are geographically and culturally ignorant compared with educated Brazilians They really have no concept of differences among peoples south of their own border. One reason is that they don't travel much at all, partly because they don't have time off work, and partly because they don't have the desire, tradition, or the language. Those that do know a foreign language usually know Spanish which is of little use here.

(Not really true, with a few weeks of study with a good teacher, the Spanish speakers will be able to pick up Portuguese very rapidly compared to those who know no Spanish, but many of the educated don't even know Portuguese is spoken in Brazil.)

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Jo

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Total Posts: 8 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:13 am on Jan. 25, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Hey Patinho, it's cool man. I've learned a lot from you here, and I've learned alot period. I think we become very passtionate when we feel someone is attacking who we are, and where we come from. So I overstand, and say I completely understand where you came from, and I myself apologize for any misunderstanding.

I understand and don't deny that Americans have a certain "air" about them. I am American, and I do get offended when people use sweeping stereotypes about us. I won't even get into the whole battle again. But I'm very proud of my country, especially after the World Trade Center devestatuon, we as Americans showed such solidarity and not to mention the support from all over the world. So that alone makes me know that when pushed we can become cohesive as a world. We aren't perfect, but we are a trying country. Sometimes our politicians, movies, and sports, and just overall appeal to other countries isn't indicative of how we all see things. Not every American is dumb as some would make us out to be, some of us truly want to learn. Besides what makes America to me a truly diverse place, is the immigrants and their culture. And despite popular belief and our past, we do have a culture, and we do know how to accept and understand. I don't feel any country has a "perfect" system, but we all try to do the best that we can, with what we have. As a world we can all learn from eachother, especially if we lay down the assumptions and stereotypes upon meeting people. If we can try and accept people as they come to us and not from preconcieved notions, perhaps then and only then can learning of two cultures and the acceptance of diversity in each person by their character as opposed to the color of their skin, then perhaps we as a whole can truly be free.

But thanks everyone for the opinions and passtionate responses. It's been an experience and I have learned a lot.

Now, I must now prepare my college students for a test on culture. Be well.

Bryan.

(Edited by Guest at 9:58 am on Jan. 25, 2003)

(Edited by Guest at 10:10 am on Jan. 25, 2003)

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:49 am on Jan. 25, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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WHO CARES MOST AMERICANS WILL NEVER VISIT BRAZIL ANYWAYS AND THEY COULD CARE LESS THE ONLY SOUTH I CARE ABOUT IS ATLANTA

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:04 pm on Jan. 25, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Hmmm. Interesting post. I have a few comments to make...

1) "More or less racist" is ridiculous as nobody has come up with an objective way of quantifying racism. What it all comes down to is that you'll think Brazil or the U.S. is less racist depending on which form of racism you prefer.

2) Racism isn't a singular phenomena. There are types of racisms and the ones in the U.S. don't necessarily match over to the ones in Brazil.

3) Class is a seperate issue and, though entwined with racism, the one is not and should not be reducible to the other. Many Americans find Brazilian classim to be racism as they (the Americans) tend to be blind to the classism on display in their own culture. Class is really something Americans don't like to think about and race is something Brazilians don't like to think about. Both systems are classist and racist however.

4) I'd say the racial prejudice is quite different from racism, though most people conflate the two. This is the difference: prejudice is a purely psychological thing while racism is social in nature. One can change or remove one's prejudices, but that won't change racism. I might be the most unprejudiced guy in the world, but if the police were to find me and a similary dressed black man walking alone at night in Flamengo (or Beverley Hills), guess who they'll probably stop? That's racism at work and I can't do much about it with my individual actions. To the degree that I treat the priveledges I get from having white skin as natural rights, however, I am supporting racism.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:17 am on Jan. 28, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Great reponse, but no one is debating if Brasil is the country of the future or not :-)

You make some great points, although some have already been pointed out by others in this topic. Either way great post!

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 12:55 pm on Jan. 28, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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YEAH I SEE BRAZIL'S FUTURE AND ITS FULL OF VIOLENCE,FAVELAS,CRIME,HOMICIDES,POVERTY,CORRUPTION,CHILD MOLESTING GRINGOS,AND RACISM

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:11 am on Jan. 30, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Hey Sleazy, it's amazing how many humorless people take my tagline at face value. Think about it a bit. I'll wait.

RE: the issue at hand, I suggets that anyone who wants an informed black american's take on racism in Brazil read Eugene Robinson's "From Coal to Cream".

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:32 am on Jan. 30, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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@macunaima - That book introduces many great topics and I've always wondered whether it was ever translated into Portuguese.

And considering the illiteracy rate in Brazil and the racial/ethnic demographics of that illiteracy I don't know if a translation would have any meaning.

I'm curious.

In light if this book what is the source of your optimism for Brazil?

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:33 pm on Jan. 30, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Adrianerik,

Why do you think I'm being optomistic about Brazil? I'm confused...

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:10 pm on Jan. 30, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Actually not by your posts. I only made a guess based upon the concluding phrase in all of all of your posts.

I am optimistic to the extent that Frederick Douglas' statement "power yields nothing without a demand' is slowly being played out in Brazil.

But it also, to us a metaphor, is just the third inning in a long 9 inning baseball game. So I'm optimistic about the third inning....I don't know about the entire game yet.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:37 am on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Adrianerik,

You REALLY consider my tagline to be OPTOMISTIC?! That's a hoot! Think about a bit and get back to me...

Re: race... Look, things ARE getting better than they were before. The issue is at least out in the open now and Brazilians are being forced to talk about it.

However, looking around me - and I know it's very not-PC to say this among a certain crowd - I can't help but shake the feeling that our major problem is CLASS. We can give all the visibility in the world to Afro-Brazilians on billboards and the like, elect numbers of them to public office, establish quotas for them in federal schools but you know what? At the end of the day, none of that's going to do much to redistribute wealth and power away from the 5 percent who have it in Brazil to the 95 percent who don't.

Furthermore, it's worth pointing out that probably 92 percent of Brazil's white people are also poor and uneducated. Even if we were able to manage to distribute priveledge equally, based on race, Brazil would STILL be the worst country in the world for wealth distribution.

Given all this, I think it's incredibly important to work on racism issues here. I think there will be no solution to our problems without dealing with these. However, unlike many north americans involved in this issue, I do not think that increased racial consciousness will be a social panacea for Brazil.

It certainly hasn't worked to bring justice to the U.S.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:56 am on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Adrianerik,

Let me tell you a bit about myself so you know where I’m coming from. I’m an immigrant to Brazil, having lived here for 15 years, who has extensive experience in race and ethnic studies in the States. I’m working on my doctorate in social anthropology at the National Museum with Dr. Giralda Seyferth, perhaps the best ethnic studies theorist in Brazil. My professors are part of an intellectual circle that includes such researchers into race as Yvonne Maggie, Peter Fry, Olívia Cunha and Lívio Sansone, among many others. I’ve pretty much dedicated my entire adult life to studying and comparing race in the U.S. and Brazil. I, myself, am white and come from working class, almost white trash roots in North America (primarily).

Now, given all the above, I can say very few things for sure about race in Brazil. Here’s a list of what I DO know...

1) Any Brazilian who talks about “the Brazilian race” or about how we are all just one happy mocha-flavored mix is talking out their ass. The roots of this ideology are well mapped by now and stretch back to the branqueadora philosophies of the last century. Interestingly enough, it’s almost always pale-skinned, middle and working class Brazilians who claim this sort of thing exists, usually just prior to affirming “I have black and indian blood in me, too, so I can’t be racist.” I’m sure I don’t have to tell you why this argument is a load of B.S. First of all, one’s ancestry DOES NOT define ones race and CERTAINLY doesn’t define one’s attitudes. Secondly, as I’ve stated above, even if one isn’t prejudiced, that doesn’t mean one isn’t racist.

Bottom line: when Brazilians talk about the “Brazilian race”, check to see if your wallet’s still there. The only reason they do it is to AVOID talking about substantial issues involving race and racism.

2) Yes, race does not exist. However, people BELIEVE it exists and that belief motivates behavior. It’s a lot like astrology: it doesn’t matter how many times people have pointed out its illogic, millions still believe in it. This is why social scientists still look at race. It is a social reality. Belief in it causes things to happen and we need to map those things out. Brazilians believe that their way of looking at race is different from the way Americans look at it, ergo, it is. Q.E.D.

3) Given that, the U.S. American essentialist, hypodescendency take on race is simply fucking ridiculous. We do not need to import a U.S. American perspective into Brazil to resolve our problems. Let’s face it: the U.S. perspective has done a piss-poor job of even allowing you guys to get a handle on your own problems. Why we should import ideologies that have manifestly NOT WORKED to resolve racism elsewhere is beyond me. Instead, we should concentrate our efforts on understanding how Brazilians see and organize physical difference that is codified as race. Your comment on the 1994 carnival theme shows a potential dangerous lack of understanding: the “America” in the theme “America – Land of Black Dreams” refered to the western hemisphere as a whole, not the U.S. exclusively.

4) A great article for you to read, if you haven’t already, is Oracy Nogueira’s “Preconceito de marca e preconceito de cor.” Though I don’t agree with everything Oracy says, I think this article is a true stepping off point for discussions of comparative racism in Brazil and the U.S. Re: Robinson’s book, my take on it is up for all to see at Amazon.com. Basically, though I think Robinson makes several interesting points, he misses many more. Frex, I don’t think his command of Portuguese is very good. How else can one explain the fact that he spent an entire decade in Brazil, the decade when afro-descended Brazilians finally achieved a public voice and got some real legislation passed in their favor, and not, apparently, have noticed a single bit of the political and intellectual ferment going on around him? Robinson finally comes back to the old, hackneyed statement that “things never change in Brazil”. Now this is simply stupid and a cop-out: things HAVE changed, a lot and mostly for the better, since Gene first put his foot in Brazil.

5) Salvador and the whole Afro-mumbo-jumbo tourism thing going on up there is very, very questionable in my eyes and in the eyes of many of my Black friends and colleagues. Salvador has basically crowned itself the ruling city of afro-brazil, forgetting that MANY other areas in Brazil have other, equally valid, even more rooted African traditions than Salvador. Much of what has been passed off as “roots” tradition in Bahia has been made up, whole cloth, over the last few decades. It’s about as “roots” as kwanza. Meanwhile, other, smaller and less mediated Afro-Brazilian communities find it hard to get a word in edgewise given all the hype over whatever media-friendly afro-crunchy fad is coming out of Salvador THIS carnaval season. I’m not impressed with Salvador, no. In order to make that wonderful afro-touron paradise that is the Pelourinho, they pushed out thousands of poor families of all colors and gentrified the neighborhood. And while the artists and musicians of Salvador have pushed Black Brazilians into visibility, they have not had hardly any success in translating that visibility into real change or power. The bancada congressional of Salvador and its government continue to be the same reactionary fuckers as ever before.

Salvador, to me, is living proof of Paul Gilroy’s recent commentaries on the marketing of blackness within a social structure where power and race are not challenged. Just putting black faces on T.V. does not change power structures.

Finally, Rio de Janeiro has an Afro-Brazilian tradition that is as strong or stronger than Salvador’s, but which is frequently pooh-poohed by Black Nationalists because of its historical willingness to cross-over with whites. However, many Black carioca cultural activists I know are much more in favor of representing REAL traditions that may have contradictory elements within them, than inventing new ones off the fly that translate Brazilian realities into comfortable shades of black and white so that gringo media conglomerates might have an easier time digesting them.

6) As a corrollary to number 5, above, I take with a huge, whopping grain of salt any claims to the “purity” of any “African” traditions encountered in Brazil. A GREAT example of this is capoeira. Now, capoeira is a BRAZILIAN tradition with African roots. There is no proof, anywhere, that it came over in from Africa in anything like its current form. In Rio, the capoeristas of the 19th century formed a sort of royal guard for the imperial family. They were street gangs, mostly dark in color, but also including many, many whites and lighter-skinned mulattoes. THEY certainly didn’t consider themselves to be a living representation of Africa in Brazil, though they did acknowledge that their fighting form had African roots.

In the 1940s, Vargas decided that capoeira was a living monument to Brazilian folklore and from then on ‘til the ‘80s, that’s what you heard coming out of the mouths from most capoeiristas. Again, it was acknowledged that its roots were in slavery, but the idea that it was an AFRICAN art form, miraculously preserved through centuries of oppression, was not bandied about. Only with the recent growth of Afro imagery as (mainly white) tourist consumption item has capoeira been recast as an AFRICAN martial art.

Bottom line: nothing made it through the colonial period here in “pure” form, wherever it may have come from and to claim otherwise is not only ludicrous, but intellectually dishonest. Not that that stops many self-described “afro-brazilian” leaders from doing just this. We may not all be generically “Brazilian”, but none of us are pure, either!

7) Finally, 9 out of 10 North Americans, of whatever color, who come here get hung up on their own racial issues and try to extrapolate them to Brazilians. The proper way to appreciate what’s going on here is only through long term living and studying. Nothing scares me more than meeting some well-meaning twenty-something gringo who’s earnestly working for an NGO here in Brazil and who believes they have all the answers for our social problems at the tips of their fingers in their laptop memory. Frequently, these people aren’t even culturally savvy enough to be able to watch the nightly news or read Veja and understand what’s going on. My suggestion to folks who want to help out here is that it’s a long term project that requires one to work a lot on oneself, first. We have enough well meaning ignorant Brazilians. We don’t need to import new ones from over seas.

(Please understand that this last comment isn’t directed towards you. You seem to be trying to educate yourself, at least, which puts you light years beyond the average gringo yahoo I have to deal with. Keep going in the direction you are, as it seems to me that you are on the right track.)

That’s it for now. Maybe I’ll think of some more things later.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:17 am on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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You've earned my respect.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:33 pm on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Where are the Black Brazilians at? Everyone is yapping away but and some of the yapping makes a lot of sense. The last few posters are making a lot of sense. But I have read this entire topic, and I still don't see anyone that is Black and Brazilian on here, not an implanted person who loves Brazil, not White Brazilians, but a Black one, born and raised in Brazil. Are there none on this board?

My comments above is not to be disrespectful to any Brazilian I just feel since the headline is asking a specific question of a specific people, why aren't they answering?

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:07 pm on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Interesting post. And this is not a derogatgory statement....you evaluate some history of the African Disapora from a purely white perspective. Questions of authenticity are not an African-American arguement.

The fluid and always moving phenomenon that is called the Black Movement is also one of the biggest critic of many 'authentic' African cultures.

We've learned not to take a snapshot of a moment in time in Africa and deem it to be the authentic thing. We allow the affirmation of a people that whatever they create for their own survival is just as 'authentic' as the snapshot. Kwanzaa was never billed as an African holiday. It is African-American. It is authentically African-

American. And even though almost all (though not totally) of sub-saharan Africa can be traced to the area now called Nigeria and Cameroon the harvest festivals are different because these Africans created what they needed for their time and environment. The clothing was different because they created authentic 'African' clothing for their environment.

It's polemical at what point the creations and expressions of a people are no longer 'that' people but 'another' people. No longer 'African' but 'Brazilian'.

But we are adults. It's not worth the time. We African-Americans submit that 'jazz' is an American music (though before it became popular it was derisively colored'). But we know that it would have never existed had not the African poly-rhythms and syncopation in the spirituals met urban cool (and urban anger). But....sem problema....it is American.

And let's get specific about Salvador. There is the one question about the politics of power and who controls the images of a society. Are the Black dominated radio stations and black dominated newspapers in Salvador the ones dissing the efforts of black people in other parts of Brazil? And who are these 'made-for-tourist' attractoins in Salvador? Are you talking about the young people flipping upside down for tourists in Terreiro De Jesus or the work of the organization Stephen Biko or DIDA? Which is an orchestrated facade for white toursim? Both? Which does not impress you?

We have a group that works directly with Ile Aye - whose group created that Black America theme. (it wasn't the theme of Salvador's Carnaval...but just this group). Our information including the dressing up of Ile Aye as Malcolm, King, Garvey, and other African-American activists is very different from yours. I'm interested in your source.

Really don't have time Brazzil forum right now. (ya wouldn't think it) but I am interested in a dialogue.

But you raised some good discussion points. I like to be specific. So I'll ask some questions. And I'll try to get back here more intently on Sunday. I need to know who the 'WE' is in your statements. I need to know what black american 'ideology' you are talking about. We have many ideologies. Some successful. Some not. Some that should be emulated by the entire world...and some to avoid. I'm looking for some clarification there.

And also your understanding about what we, African-

Americans, understand the defeat of racism to be in America....the de-clawing of the system...or the empowering of those affected by the system. And what parameters you are using to judge the success of it.

I'm also curious about these black friends in Rio. I work with some of the groups there and perhaps, one day, we can all sit down one day for an afternoon talk. (I'll be there February 20th). It's in Rio where, when comparing like educated blacks and mulattoes, that they are still denied their equality in positions and salary.

We, in the United States, at the beginning of the century also thought that as the general tide of the American economy rose that along with the exploited whites, and european immigrants (two different groups) that African-Americans would also rise. That was an error.

I don't like to play class versus race. We have two feet to stomp on both.

But...a much peaceful weekend. People will gravitate towards that which changes their lives. It doesn't matter where it comes from.

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:14 pm on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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I'm intrigued by this dialogue. Adernik, my wife is a Black woman and American ( I am a very White man haha and both loveeeeeee Brasil) she is over here going "you go boy!" she says she loves the points you make, like you it seems she wasn't clear on what the M (sorry I couldn't remembe how to spell your name please forgive, but the intelligent M person) poster was trying to say. I think her nose began to flare when she read "rootless"jaja. Either way I am looking forward to learning here. Great dialogue fellas and this is my idea of a decent and respectful conversation, if I may so so myself.

I'd like to hold off on commenting and register so I can be identified among the sea of "guest" posters.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:11 pm on Jan. 31, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Adrianerik,

Questions of authenticity aren’t what I’m about. As a social anthropologist, I believe that ALL traditions are invented. If Black Americans feel the need for a Kwanza, more power to them. Cool. Just don’t tell me that it’s a millennial tradition imported from Africa and not expect me to laugh.

And that, my friend, is EXACTLY what many promoters of Afro-Brazilian culture (particularly in its media-friendly hyped-to-the-gills Salvadorean variants) do. I’m not the one calling for authenticity checks: THEY ARE. When the entire sport of capoeira can follow its tail down Alice’s rabbit hole arguing endlessly over which form “regional” or “angolano” is more “pure”, then obviously SOMEBODY involved thinks authenticity a worthwhile label to struggle for. When Candomblé terreiros in Salvador claim to be “pure” representations of African religion, then certainly authenticity is an issue among their adherents.

I think you are evaluating the history of Afro-Brazil through North American eyes when you make the flip statement that “Questions of authenticity are not an African-American argument.” Not to attack you, simply an observation: only someone very unaware of recent changes in law and due process in Brazil, particularly as regards Black people and land, could make a statement like that. Since 1990 (IIRC) proven descendants of quilombo communities have the same rights to land as Indian tribes. So you can bet your Olodum t-shirt that “authenticity” is a HUGE issue for many Afro-Brazilians, if only because real, material benefits are tied up in the struggle for it.

The tradition-inventing we see occurring around black issues and images has actually made it harder for many african-brazilians to get their due. I’ll give you one example: because of the popularization of the idea of the “quilombo”, most Brazilians have an ahistoric, romanticized notion of what these maroon communities were about. Along comes a small rural black community that is trying to get land based on the fact that they are descendants of quilombeiros. They have to fight an uphill struggle, simply because their ancestors don’t have a history that’s anything like that being presented for the quilombos on the telenovela das 8:00 or in the Carnaval de Salvador. In this case, invented tradition is trampling PROVABLE HISTORY and many Black people, precisely those from the poorest, more rural communities that are likely to maintain more African cultural traditions, are being overwhelmed by a wave of flashy glitz that does very little to put power, land or money into Black hands.

“Are the Black dominated radio stations and black dominated newspapers in Salvador the ones dissing the efforts of black people in other parts of Brazil?”

When they present African-Brazilian cultural forms in Salvador as “real” and “pure” and those in other places of Brazil – such as Rio and Sampa – as somehow not “roots” enough then, yes, they are dissing the efforts of Black people in other parts of Brazil. They contribute to the occultation of real history in favor of a media friendly version whose major goal is to sell more Brahma. Now, obviously this is not the only thing these stations and newspapers do, but many, if not all of them periodically engage in this kind of sloganeering. It’s something I think they need to think harder about. I’m certainly not suggesting they be shut down or that they are useless, however.

“And who are these 'made-for-tourist' attractoins in Salvador? Are you talking about the young people flipping upside down for tourists in Terreiro De Jesus or the work of the organization Stephen Biko or DIDA? Which is an orchestrated facade for white tourism? Both? Which does not impress you?”

The expulsion of thousands of poor from residency in Pelourinho didn’t impress me, for starters, and there’s plenty of blame to go around for that. I want to make it clear, however, that I’m not saying that everything that’s going on in Salvador sucks. There are, of course, many fine groups at work up there. What I AM saying is that the media orchestrated image of Salvador as the capital of black Brazil is more trouble than it’s worth for many, perhaps most, black Brazilians. Furthermore, just based on what I’ve heard and seen over the years, many Black Salvadoran activists are very complacent when it comes to promoting that image.

“We have a group that works directly with Ile Aye - whose group created that Black America theme. (it wasn't the theme of Salvador's Carnaval...but just this group). Our information including the dressing up of Ile Aye as Malcolm, King, Garvey, and other African-American activists is very different from yours. I'm interested in your source.”

Ah. So it wasn’t the Carnaval theme. IIRC, there was a “Blacks in the Americas” carnaval theme in Salvador some 6, 7 years ago and I assumed that was what you were speaking of. That “Blacks in the U.S.” was one particular bloco’s theme, I can buy. Was it part of the larger theme? I would have been interested in seeing their take on these historical figures. Marcus Garvey in gold lamé. Now there’s a thought. But perhaps that would be too carioca... ;-)

“I need to know who the 'WE' is in your statements.”

Provisionally, you might say members of the Brazilian polis: those who live, work, vote and raise their children here. In short, Brazilian citizens who are, of course, primarily responsible for our country’s political choices, who are the major movers in Brazilian cultural activism of all forms and who I presume – given that it’s written into our constitution – mostly feel that racism is an issue that needs to be dealt with on the level of government policy. Call me a conservative, but I think if you’re going to mess with the politics of a country, you should be a member of the polis. Otherwise, you’re moving perilously close to colonialism.

“I need to know what black american 'ideology' you are talking about. We have many ideologies.”

I might better say American ideology, as it seems to be pretty well distributed across race lines. Here are its hegemonic elements as far as I see them: hypodescendency, exclusivism, pluralism and a focusing upon race to the clear detriment of class or other political-identitary issues. I think these are themes that historically run through discussions of race in the U.S. on all sides of the color-line and I think that there’s a clear bias among certain North Americans that the only way “progress” will occur on racial issues in Brazil is for Brazilians to be “educated” to see the world through a lens crafted from these elements. To me, this is missionary proselytizing of the worst sort, the kind of stuff one would expect 19th century proponents of “the white man’s burden” to engage in and it surprises me that so many supposedly “anti-racist” anti-imperialist” Americans engage in it.

“And also your understanding about what we, African-

Americans, understand the defeat of racism to be in America....the de-clawing of the system...or the empowering of those affected by the system. And what parameters you are using to judge the success of it.”

OK. The defeat of legally mandated apartheid in the U.S. was an obvious good. However, I’d say that the majority of Black Americans are worse off economically and politically today, relative to whites, than they were, say, 30 years ago. In spite of Black Nationalism, there has been a huge backlash in the U.S. and the States is probably FARTHER away from eliminating racism than in was in 1968 (given either of your definitions of racism). So I’d have to say that while laudable and based on much analysis that is correct, exclusivist, hypodecendent, pluralist Black Nationalist thought in the U.S. has pretty much been a failure in terms of getting the goods for the people it claims to support. Given this, one wonders why anti-racist activists in Brazil should feel the need to adopt this perspective.

“I don't like to play class versus race. We have two feet to stomp on both.”

Me too. However, name one national political leader of any color in the States who does this. Jesse Jackson tried, for a while. From where I’m sitting – and I could be wrong – the movements up there pretty much look like one pony circuses. When I read the works of Black Brazilianists like Angela Gilliam I certainly don’t see any understanding of class being displayed. When I talk to U.S. students down here on study grants or exchange programs (many of them black), I see very little awareness of class issues. What I DO hear is a lot of rhetoric; stuff like “We are against classism and racism”. Well, if one is, then it strikes me that one needs to reach out to white poor and working class communities as well as black and latino ones. In the States, the whites are the majority of the poor, aren’t they? Yet I don’t see ANY Americans doing this, certainly not on a national level. So it seems to me that a lot of empty rhetoric is being spouted about class issues: you folks talk about stomping with two feet, but when the time comes to kick, both always seem to be kicking somewhere else... I wonder, if MLK’s vision of a poor, urban alliance had come about, where would you folks be now? Probably a lot better off. Maybe I’m wrong. Enlighten me if I am.

Guest, re: the “rootless” stuff, I suggest the next time your wife comes down here, she take a step or two back from the folks involved in the community radio stations and such and see how the images they are crafting re: black identity are being utilized and regurgitated by the larger Brazilian media. Two things are happening simultaneously here: Black Brazilians are crafting more assertive images for themselves. I think this is good and shouldn’t be stopped. However, these images are then being absorbed by the media and sent back at Black Brazilians in order to get them to buy “ethnic” soap and watch “historical” soap operas. What I’m trying to say is that community-based image and tradition crafting, in and of itself, ultimately leads nowhere if not linked to strategies that redistribute wealth and power. The States has not become any less racist just because more black people appear on U.S. T.V. In fact, one can make the argument that it’s become MORE racist. So Afro-Brazilian orientated media culture doesn’t impress me as a way out of our dilemma and most of what I see coming out of Salvador has major ties to this sort of imageering and promotion.

If you think I’m exaggerating Salvador’s role, take a look at Marqueseazy’s post above where he blithely says “Salvador is the only Black city in Brazil”. This is what the hype is causing at ground level across the nation, but in order to see it, one needs to step back from the black NGO and community associations and look at what’s going on in the larger society. Marqueseazy’s statement, though ignorant, is unfortunately what most Brazilians believe and what many Salvadorans are happy with.

My major point in all of this isn’t that Salvador is bad or that the people who are doing (often good) work up there are evil and wrong. It is simply this: the deification of Salvador as the cradle and root of all things Afro-Brazilian causes more problems than it solves and I think you internationals should think about that a bit next time you feel the urge to laud the city to the skies as a “black paradise”.

Re: your visit to Rio, we can meet, sure. If I'm not overloaded with my thesis project defence, we could go for a beer.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:20 am on Feb. 1, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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you can not take the statement of one idiot to represent how everyone feels about salvador. and who is to blame for a perpetuation that isn't 100% true? aren't all countries that rely on tourism to a degree guilty of selling rose colored glasses? i love how people who are not of a country like to dissect and say what should and shouldn't be done. it's very interesting to say the least.

but respect is given because some of you hold strong opinons some i share some i don't. at this point everything becomes redundant.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 11:04 am on Feb. 1, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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BRAZIL IS SO RACIST BECAUSE ITS 2003 AND BLACKS IN BRAZIL DONT EVEN HAVE THEIR OWN TV SHOW.AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE THEIR OWN TV SHOWS SINCE THE 50'S WITH THE FIRST BEING NAT KING COLE.ALMOST 100% OF THE FACES YOU SEE ON BRAZILIAN TELEVISION IS WHITE.WHERE IS THE BRAZILIAN VERSION OF THE COSBYS OR MY WIFE AND KIDS NOWHERE BECUASE THEY DONT EXIST.I DONT THINK THERE ARE EVEN ANY UPPER CLASS BLACK FAMILIES IN BRAZIL THEY ARE NON EXISTENT.COUNTRY OF THE FUTURE MY AZZ BRAZIL IS ONLY A RACIAL PARADISE IF YOU HAVE WHITE SKIN BUT ITS WORST THEN HELL IF YOU ARE BLACK LIVING IN BRAZIL.BRAZIL DOSENT PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH ABOUT RACIAL EQUALITY FOR ALL AND CANT NOBODY PROVE ME WRONG ON THAT.ATLEAST IN THE U.S THERE IS CIVIL RIGHTS GROUPS AND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.WHERE IS THE BRAZILIAN VERSION OF JESSE JACKSON HAHAHA THAT DOSENT EXIST EITHER NOT TO MENTION THE MANY BLACK COLLEGES IN THE U.S AND NON IN BRAZIL NOT EVEN SALVADOR HAS BLACK COLLEGES.BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK ENREPEUNERS IN MUSIC LIKE THE U.S HAS WITH RUSSEL SIMMONS,MASTER P,AND P DIDDY JUST TO MAKE A FEW.

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:11 pm on Feb. 1, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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WHITE PRIVELEDGE IN BRAZIL IS WAY MORE ACCEPTED IN BRAZIL THEN IN THE U.S

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:15 pm on Feb. 1, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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You mean that black colleges is not an apartheid legacy?

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:16 am on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Guest,

Marqueseazy's opinion regarding Salvador is, unfortunately, the norm, not that of an isolated fool.

Marquesleazy:

Regarding the "non-existant" black middle and upper-class in Brazil, Marqueseazy, one of them is staring over my shoulder right now and laughing at your silly ass.

"BRAZIL IS SO RACIST BECAUSE ITS 2003 AND BLACKS IN BRAZIL DONT EVEN HAVE THEIR OWN TV SHOW."

Try A Turma do Ghetto and O Show do Netinho on Rede record. There are more, too.

ALMOST 100% OF THE FACES YOU SEE ON BRAZILIAN TELEVISION IS WHITE.

True. Whereas in the U.S. it's around 90 percent. And as we can easily see, the increased T.V. presence of Blacks has resulted in increased prosperity across the board for black people. The American black lower and working classes are so much more better off economically and politically now than they were in, say 1970, when there were hardly any black faces on American T.V. My hat's off to you, Marqueseazy: you've found the solution to racism in Brazil. All we need are a few more African-Brazilian faces in our toothpaste commercials and we'll be on the high road to prosperity and justice for all.

Frankly, I see very little real improvement in race relations that has come about because of the increased black presence on T.V. in the States. Spike Lee deals with this issue rather well in bamboozled, I feel.

I'd rate the lack of black faces on Brazilian T.V. as "annoying" and "highly insulting", myself. It's more of a symptom of a problem than an actual problem. What say we attack the problem and trust that the symptoms will resolve themselves?

I DONT THINK THERE ARE EVEN ANY UPPER CLASS BLACK FAMILIES IN BRAZIL THEY ARE NON EXISTENT.

Bullshit. There aren't that many of them, but they very definitely exist. Remember the "Cinderella of Espirito Santo" story from a few years ago? Worse than ignoring Brazil's piss-poor race and class situation is exagerating it to the point where one ignores the many important, real changes which have ocurred. One shouldn't pooh-pooh the existence of people who, in spite of all the problems we have here, have managed to beat the odds and GAIN some measure of economic and political power.

I should also remind you that less than 5 percent of Brazilians of ANY COLOR make more than 400 US dollars a month. There aren't that many rich or middle class Brazilians to begin with. This is a stark contrast with the U.S., where black poverty is embedded in overall prosperity. If race were eliminated as a factor in the economy in the U.S., almost half of the U.S. poor would disappear. In a similar situation in Brazil, we'd STILL have the worst wealth distribution in the industrialized world.

COUNTRY OF THE FUTURE MY AZZ.

You, like many humorless people, have obviously not thought about the multiple meanings in my tagline. I suggest you mull it over.

BRAZIL IS ONLY A RACIAL PARADISE IF YOU HAVE WHITE SKIN BUT ITS WORST THEN HELL IF YOU ARE BLACK LIVING IN BRAZIL.

Well, my friend now says she's off to shovel some coal into the furnace. Hysterical hyperbole doesn't help us deal with this problem, Marques. Because of people like you who are obviously talking out of their asses, people who actually have something constructive to say about ending racism in Brazil are not listened to. Your bullshit actually helps to make racism stronger.

BRAZIL DOSENT PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH ABOUT RACIAL EQUALITY FOR ALL AND CANT NOBODY PROVE ME WRONG ON THAT.

Uh huh. Of course, the United States ALWAYS practices what it preaches re: human equality, right? That's why, with the greatest concentration of wealth in human history to draw upon, its education, health and environmental stats are among the worst of the first world nations. Everyone gets equal treatment in the States.

ATLEAST IN THE U.S THERE IS CIVIL RIGHTS GROUPS AND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

Your belief that these things don't exist down here simply shows how ignorant you are of Brazilian realities and how unqualified you are to even be talking about this issue. Brazil has many affirmative action programs and more are being implanted every day. And Brazil has hundreds - perhaps thousands - of civil rights groups. How do you think that quilombo land provision got into the constitution? Why do you think racism is against the law here? Do you think the white elite just woke up one morning and said "Gee, let's put these things into law just for shits ang giggles"?

If there's one thing I can't stand more than the average bliss-ninny take on Brazil as a "racial paradise", its little soldiers of the apocalypse like you, Marques, who blithely denounce all the hard work that's been done as "useless" and lable every advance, personal or social, as "non-extant".

WHERE IS THE BRAZILIAN VERSION OF JESSE JACKSON

At this moment? Heading up the Ministries of Urban Development, Culture and Environment, for starters.

There are dozens of well known black politicians across the Brazilian landscape. I'll just name my favorite, for now: Benedita da Silva, former federal senator, former vice-governor and governor of Rio de Janeiro, currently urban planning minister. Bené grew up and has lived all her life in the favelas. Still lives there.

HAHAHA THAT DOSENT EXIST EITHER

As I said above, what doesn't seem to exist is any substantial knowledge that you may have about Brazil. It's hard to believe that someone could be so ignorant as you about this issue, Marques and yet still have such strongly held opinions regarding it. What's up with that? One would presume that if you were truly concerned about race and class issues in Brazil that you would at least bestir yourself to acquire SOME basic information about the topic. It's apparent to me, however, that you're just plain butt-ignerint on this issue. So why all the noise?

NOT TO MENTION THE MANY BLACK COLLEGES IN THE U.S AND NON IN BRAZIL NOT EVEN SALVADOR HAS BLACK COLLEGES.

Some 20 percent of the student bodies of UERJ and UFRJ, the best universities in Rio, are afrodescendant. I wonder what the percentage is at Harvard, Yale and Princeton, hmmm?

BRAZIL HAS NO BLACK ENREPEUNERS IN MUSIC LIKE THE U.S HAS WITH RUSSEL SIMMONS,MASTER P,AND P DIDDY JUST TO MAKE A FEW

Oh, man. Now you are REALLY talking straight out your asshole. If there's ONE area where blacks have done very well for themselves in Brazil, it's the music industry. First of all, I don't think Brazil has music entrepeneurs of any color like they do in the States. But if we're talking about blacks who run their own careers and work to find new talent, opening space in the market for it, and incidently making a buck off it as it goes by, then we'd have to talk about people like Gilberto Gil, Carlinhos Brown, Milton Nascimento and a host of other black musicians/cultural entrepeneurs.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:22 am on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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One other thing I think needs to be emphasized, that Marquesleazy's point bring up...

Listening to guys like him, one gets the impression that all white folks in Brazil are rich while all blacks are poor. The truth of the matter, the vast majority of all Brazilians, whatever their color, are poor.

When one looks at the U.S., one sees a poverty situation that simply doesn't need to exist. With a minimum of effort, the U.S. government could give everyone health care, a roof over their head, decent education and good nutrition. This wouldn't strain the economy. We're talking about providing for the lower 25 percent ot the U.S., the clear minority, a disporoprtionate number of whom are not white.

Now in Brazil, probably 90 percent of the country doesn't have anything approaching what Americans would consider to be a "reasonable" life style. even if we redistributed all wealth in this country in such a way as to eliminate race (i.e. equal, representative percentages of upper, middle and lower class peoples across color lines), we'd STILL be one of the world's most economically unjust nations.

So how many of these problems Sleazy sees in Brazil are due to race and how many due to class? Race nationalism in Brazil is simply a waste of time as it doesn't even come close to addressing the problems of the vast majority of Brazilians.

But the Yanks like it, so hey: there's lots of grant money to be made off of it.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:08 am on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Macunaima, you have my respect dawg! I am a Black man and I don't share the views of this Marquesleazy person, he is totally speaking out of his ass!

You made some excellent points, ones I've heard expressed by some Black Brasilians I've met during my visits to Rio, Recife, and Salvador. I contribute the issues mostly with class, and their issuses are very different than African-Americans and I think we all need to remember that when visiting or learning about Blacks in Brasil. It's not the same even I had to hang that theory up. I do agree and blame the bullshit that was laid on me by some not to well intended people from Brasil and America. It's crazy because I listen to this Urban radio station in New York City and they always go to Salvador every year. I know it's well intended but even they were misinformed. The commercial was like "the mecca of African culture, come and visit and discover Salvador da Bahia." So I called-up there and laid some knowledge on the brother Doug Banks and he was like "well man this is what they ask us to say." I knew he knew better than that, but Macunaima is correct when he says it's not a correct statement or even an correct assessment if you spent even a week in Rio, Recife, and especially Salvador. But that's my opinion. I am still learning about Brasil so I am a long way from understanding the country as a whole. I'd like to spend some time in Sao Paulo now.

I don't think this sleazy person has even visited let alone lived in Brasil. I honestly think he's a mole put here to stare fires and continue to spit ass oil on the entire topic.

Peace People and stay up!

-----Darren

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 12:36 pm on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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WHERE IS THE BRAZILIAN VERSION OF MOTOWN HUH OH WAIT THAT DOSENT EXIST EITHER.WHERE IS THE BRAZILIAN VERSION OF SHOWTIME AT THE APOLLO OH WAIT THEY DONT HAVE ONE.AMERICA HAS BLACK HISTORY MONTH WHERE IS BRAZIL'S BLACK HISTORY MONTH HUH EXPLAIN THAT

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:08 pm on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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AMERICA IS MORE AFROCENTRIC THEN BRAZIL WILL EVER BE.IN AMERICA AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE PROUD TO BE BLACK UNLIKE BLACK BRAZILIANS WHO WOULD RATHER CLAIM THEY ARE MORENO THEN BLACK CAUSE THEY ALL HAVE LOW SELF ESTEEM WHEN IT COMES TO BE BEING BLACK ONLY 6% OF BRAZILIANS CLAIM TO BE BLACK THATS A VERY PATHETIC SMALL NUMBER

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:14 pm on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Marqueseazy,

What do you mean "Where's Brazil's Motown?" If you mean a music industry principally owned and operated by and catering to blacks, then Salvador and Rio have plenty of comparisons. Just because YOU don't like what passes for popular black music in Brazil doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Brazil's black history month falls in November around the week of celebrations in memory of Zumbi.

Re: America's supposed Afro-centrism, here's what I've got to say about it and this may hurt some people's feelings...

Black America's Afro-Centrism has very, very little to do with Africa. Denied real participation in the U.S., they constructed a parallel culture. To avoid the pain of being orphans in a strange land, they've invented a mythical homeland. To call Black America's culture "African" in any meaningful sense of the word is simply misleading: in its moral outlook on the world, it is American as the day is long. It just happens to be black.

Despite the often brutal racism Brazilian Blacks have suffered, there never was a question of whether or not they were part of Brazil. Since before abolition, blacks have considered themselves and have been considered to be the most typical and basic component element of Brazilian nationality. Ask any Black Brazilian and he'll tell you: Africa may be where his great grandmother came from but HE is Brazilian and proud of that. The best, most honest and moral mãe de santos and mestres will also tell you "We respect Africa, but THIS is our home. Brazil. What we build here is what will last." As far as I can see, there is no slippage between the idea of being black and being Brazilian. I have never heard a Black Brazilian say "I don't feel like I am Brazilian". I've heard many Black Americans say this.

The racism Brazil expressed in the late 19th century, while aborrent by today's standards, was considered RADICAL back then. It was essentially a biologicalizing version of "uplift the race". The basic idea behind branqueamento was the salvation of a barbarian race through intermixture. This is not all that disimilar to what certain Afro-American luminaries were preaching in the U.S. at the same time, the one difference being that the Brazilian ideologues also believed in physical admixturing and not just cultural assimilation. However, in the U.S., "uplifting" Black Americans were fought tooth and nail as the white working class and bourgeoisie stuggled to keep Blacks OUT - culturally, economically, and socially - of the United States. Down here, this ideology was enshrined as the only way to give Brazil a future.

American "afrocentrism" is a survival mechanism created to deal with a society that was never, in any way, shape or form, going to accept black citizens as part of its body public. It's questionable to me how such a mechanic would work in Brazil, where rigid boundaries are abhorred by one and all and Black citizens have always been encouraged to be proud to simply be Brazilian, no need for hypens.

It is revealing to me that Black America feels the need for a Black Christmas and so invented Kwanza, a synthetic holiday that falls opposite the Christian celebration. Depite all the hype about the 7 traditions (or however many they are) all Kwanza is to most people is the Black x-mas, the way Haunakah is the jewish x-mas. It is a classic Barthian ethnic boundary marker, erected to do one thing and one thing alone: salient difference. Cada macaco em seu galho.

Yesterday, February 2nd, was Iemanja's day and all over Brazil, people were setting offerings afloat in boats. My friend picked up his 2 year old Irish/Bahian son off the kitchen floor and took him down to the bay to celebrate. The kid is light-skinned enough that he'll probably be valenced as white when he's older. In his day-to-day life, he's learning respect for the orixá. At the celebration, I saw thousands of white faces. Iemanja is part of THEIR culture, too. The orixá mean something to them. Sadly, I think the majority of Black Americans don't even know what that word means.

That's Brazilian afrocentrism at work for you. People here don't often need to stand out in the streets screaming "I'm African, dammit!" because the cultural knowledge that goes along with that proposition is part of every Brazilian's day-to-day life. I live in a world where the orixá walk around daily dressed in peoples' bodies. You can run into Ogum or Exu at any busstop in Rio if you're not careful. I live in a world where if I come down with a cold, my friends and neighbors immediately advise me to take a discharging bath with rock salt. I live in world where polyrythyms abound and where what people say is nowhere near as important as what they imply, where my roomate maintains an altar in our back room to his cigana. I live in a world where Africa is part of everyone's daily life. We don't need to light seven candles at x-mas and dream of a mythical wherever in order to touch it: it's right there in front of our face, everyday, for eveyone to reach out and grasp if they choose.

Your belief that American afrocentrism proves that they are less racist is nothing more than the flip side of the tired old argument that Brazilians accept miscegenation and thus are less racist, Marquesleazy. Both American afrocentrism and Brazilian miscegenation developed as survival mechanisms for Black people to get along in an unfriendly and often arbitrary world. One worked better up there, the other worked better down here. To say that Brazil should have done things the way the States did, aside from being ignorant, is reductionist and chauvinist. It travels perilously close to racism as it posits an innately supperior social/economic grouping against which all others must be measured. You simply declare the U.S. way of doing things to be better and, to the degree that Brazil doesn't precisely immitate this, it is worse.

This is the exact same logic that maintained social darwinism and good 'ol boiler plate racism alive and well for so long.

The irony of your commentary, Marquesleazy, is that it shows exactly how deeply you believe in traditional American ideologies of exceptionalism, pluralism, exclusivism and messianism. All of these ideologies have roots, not in Africa, but in white, Protestant Europe. In your desire to trumpet your "afrocentrism", you simply show yourself to be a puritan dressed in a dashiki.

There's your "afrocentrism" for you.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:22 am on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP

stark114

Newbie

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Macunaima,

Nice post. Question for you regarding beauty standards in Brazil. Are "african" features universally degraded in Brazil? Are there any role models for "Black" brazilians in this department? What's worse in Brazil? Being poor? Black? Or to be considered "Ugly".

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Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:32 am on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP

dean

Newbie

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As a child in England I used to have a real boyhood adulation for Brazil. I love football and in the 1980's we had FEW high profile black players in England. So consequently black people in England supported Brazil. To me Brazil seemd like heaven Flair players like Zico and Socrates and with Pele a black man as an international hero it seemed the model of integration.

However when I started my teaching career in London. I actually met Brazilians for the first time. I think over a period of 5 years of about 1000 students I taught in London only one was properly black and maybe about 20-30 were mixed race and it shocked me even more that those mixed race Brazilians considered themselves white or said that race was irrelevant in their life. When I pointed to the fact that it must be relevant since so few people of dark complexion travelled outside of the country there were often embarassed silences. They were bemused as to why mixed race (black/white) people in England often identified more with their blackness.

Of the white Brazilians I met many seemed visually disappointed to see a non-white teacher teaching them. One middle aged man even challenged me saying "How can you be English you have a foreign name (my family name is African)?"

I asked him "How can you be a Brazilian you have a Portugeuse name?!" The point seemed lost on him though. Some also said to me that if they saw a black guy in Brazil driving a nice car they usually associated him with drug dealing. If they saw a light skinned person driving a nice car they would assume there was white money in the family.

Anyway it's not all negative I did meet some really sincere and decent people and many seemed to have a spontaneity and genuiness that we don't have in England but it saddened me that the country I had once idolized seemed fairly racist at the end of the day.

Anyway I digress. I haven't been entirely put off infact I'm actually planning a trip to Brazil next year as one of my buddy's has married and emmigrated to Rio. How is life there as a black person? Are you treated with respect?

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Total Posts: 4 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 6:51 am on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Stark,

One thing I think the new Afro wave really HAS helped with is that it's helped make African beauty standards more acceptable. Still, we got a lot of bottle-blonds here, too.

Dean, I'm not black. Life for black people here is much like anywhere else, I gather. Even the rich have to deal with racism and the poor are screwed. I would say, however, that Brazil has come a long way int he last twenty years towards addressing its racism. At least people finally admit we have a problem down here!

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:31 am on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP

Tais

Newbie

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Excellent comments Macunaima, Obrigado!

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Total Posts: 8 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:19 am on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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LETS TALK ABOUT BRAZILIAN CINEMA WHERE'S THE BRAZILIAN VERSION OF SPIKE LEE AND JOHN SINGLETON DAMN BRAZIL DOSENT HAVE THAT EITHER.BLACK WOMEN HERE HAVE WON MISS AMERICA BEFORE CAN BRAZIL SAY A BLACK WOMAN HAS WON MISS BRAZIL BEFORE HMMM?

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:02 pm on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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WHERE IS BRAZIL'S VERSION OF BET BLACK ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION AMERICA HAS ONE WHY DOESENT BRAZIL GEE I WONDER WHY

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:10 pm on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP

fernandobn

Junior Member

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And then! You guys have a such necessity to show the world that everything in America is fine just because you have Black versions of everything, like programs only for blacks, so no whites are allowed, this is hypocrisy. I remember back in 1965 in washingnton DC. My father openned the door for a black lady and she said I will gonna sue you! My father just entered in a seven eleven to buy cigarettes, and only black were there everybody start to staring at my father, this is not the way things goes in Brazil. We don't do a lot of things America does because we don't see and feel as you, and what is good for America isn't necessary good for Brazil! Got it! Yes, we have racism, but who doesn't and besides after a fair amount of reincarnations I bet you gonna start to accept and understand better the Human differences.

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Fernando B.

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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 2:17 pm on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Marquesleazy.

I suggest you see Onibus 174, Cidade de Deus, Cidade dos Homens or de Notícias de uma Guerra Particular for cinema that deals with the realities of black Brazil. This stuff makes Singleton and Lee's work look positively conservative and pedestrian by comparison.

Regarding "Miss Brazil" in 15 years of living here, I've never seen or heard of a pageant. It must exist, but frankly, I really don't think people pay much attention to it. Several Black Brazilians have represented the country at the Miss Uiverse pageant however.

Regarding BET, I'll just quote "Boondocks" and say that I'm not sure how providing more pictures of black women's gyrating asses helps black Americans' self-esteem or socio-economic position. We get exactly what BET shows on our normal T.V., year in and year out, and double doses at Carnaval.

You're really reaching, Marques, but you haven't answered my one question, to whit:

Why are you so vehement about racism in Brazil seeing as how you are so butt-ignerint about what's going on down here? Usually folks who hold strong opinions at least have some facts to back them up. They study the stuff they obsess upon. You don't seem to know jack about Brazil and less about the lives of Black people here.

So 'sup with that?

All you show is your massive ignorance re: Brazilian culture and history. EVERY TIME you've claimed Brazil doesn't have something, I've shown that you are simply talking out your ass. "Brazil doesn't have affirmative action." We do. "Brazil doesn't have Black history month." We do. "Brazil doesn't have black musical entrepeneurs." We do. "Brazil doesn't have black T.V. shows." We do. And now "Brazil doesn't have black cinema".

Sorry. We do.

I suggest you learn something about Brazil before you start trying to compare it to the States. Otherwise, you're just going to continue looking like a chump.

I'm going to stop responding to your idiot accusations unless you're willing to answer the one simple question I posed you above. Your accusations re: racism in Brazil are along the lines of a man asking another "So have you stopped beating your wife yet?" Refuting them is like shooting fish in a barrel: a cheap thrill, but ultimately unsatisfying.

I think it's clear to everyone by now that you're just a fool with a big mouth, so I suggest you put up or shut up.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:26 pm on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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THE ONLY TIME YOU SEE BLACKS ON BRAZILIAN TELEVISION IS WHEN THEY ARE SLAVES OR MAIDS AND NANNY'S FOR RICH WHITE FAMILIES CAN SOMEBODY PROVE ME WRONG ON THAT.I HAVE A FRIEND WHO WENT TO BRAZIL AND HE SAID MOST BLACKS DONT IDENTIFY AS SO THEY IDENTIFY WITH BEING MORENOS NOW WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW AN AFRICAN AMERICAN DENY HE WAS BLACK NEVER BECAUSE WE ARE PROUD OF WHO WE ARE CAN YOU SAY THE SAME THANG FOR BLACK BRAZILIANS NO BECAUSE THEY WOULD RATHER BE MULATTOES THEN BE BLACK.IN AMERICA EVEN THE LIGHTEST SKINNED BLACKS ARE STILL PROUD OF THEIR HERITAGE AND DONT CLAIM TO BE SOMETHING ELSE.WE HAVE THE NAACP WHERE IS BRAZIL'S VERSION OF THE NAACP.WE HAVE BEEN MAKING BLACK MOVIES BEFORE BRAZIL EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT MAKING CITY OF GOD.EVER SEEN BOYZ IN THE HOOD,MALCOLM X,DO THE RIGHT THANG,BARBERSHOP,FRIDAY,COMING TO AMERICA,DEAD PRESIDENTS,THE COLOR PURPLE,ANTWONE FISHER,BOOMERANG,MENENCE TO SOCIETY,AND THATS NOT EVEN THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG BECAUSE THERE'S ALOT MORE AMERICAN BLACK MOVIES THEN THAT SO NOW LET ME SEE YOU BEAT THAT.

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:11 pm on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Wait hold-up Marquesleazy. As an Black man living and working in Harlem (Sugar Hill to be exact) I will have to stop your crazy ass comments here.

I've read every single post in this thread, and I do remember you saying somewhere on this site, that you are "bi-racial" and either didn't consider yourself Black, as in both parents are Black, but you considered yourself "bi-racial"? Am I correct, please allow me to stand properly if I'm not.

As far as Blacks being proud of saying their Black, well that's not true my friend. Although it saddens me as a Black man, in which both of my parents are Black. The truth is there are several and have been several people in America who are clearly Black, but hate their race, hate their heritage. Including several of our most famed Black politicians. I can't remember his name now, but there is one who says "don't call me Black, or African-American, I am only American." There have been evidence of Blacks "passing" for White, there have been the upper-class Blacks of "Martha's Vineyard" who have their famous "paper bag" test. Where by the test your skin colour to a paper bag, to see if you are darker or lighter, and of course the lighter you are the better. There is out "lIL Kim" (who doesn't represent all Black women, but some and a growing number of them at that) who hates being dark-skinned, with her wide nose, she's had surgery to look like Pamela Anderson, and this she has said herself and wears blue contacts. In fact every single Black woman she named that she felt was beautiful was of the lighter persuation. So please let's kill the "Black Americans are wayyyy better than Brazilians, when it comes to race." This is soooo not true my brotha. I hate to inform you and let you see the light, but most famous Blacks are more and more "claiming" some other ethnic make-up. I think Lauryn Hill is the only one they couldn't convince to say she was something other than a Black woman. Yes they tried, they even said "you must be more than Black" lol, and she laughed because clearly she's not, but of course that's Americans for you. Oh and let me not forget the fact that Black women routinely want to marry men with "good hair" NOT ALL, but a large majority are growing very ignorant in their quest to find a place within the American Dream. Not to mention Black men who become very well off and or famous routinely choose the lighter skinned Black woman with Eurocentric features, or even White women (some think it's a crime, some don't) but this so telling of the state of Black people. The lighter you are in American the US OF A the better off you are as far as success and treatment.

It's a fact, people like to deal with people who are more like them, hence Eminem's success over even Biggie or Tupac. Racism exsists all over music, movies, and sports. So don't play your self.

Fool yourself all you want Mr. Marque, but the truth is Blacks are just as fucked-up as anyone else. I live and breath Harlem baby. All my life, I was born and raised in the mecca of the Black Yankee Movement, so please we can go toe to toe about the issues of my people. And to think I'm considerd a "Buppie" you know Black version of a "Yuppie" lol. It's crazy you really are blowing hot air man. BET sucks, and sadly even the music videos dipict better of the state of young Black Americans, rarely do you see a DARK SKINNED SISTAH (Black woman), you see the lighter and the Latina looking ones, shaking her ass, shaking it fast--watch yo self. So fuck what you heard Marque, consider what you know.

Theres no shame in me laying out Black folks dirty little secrets, there is racism within our own communities. My litte sis use to get teased because her hair was "good" and she was "light-skinned", yeah by her own Black people. It's amazing how much we haven't changed. Oprah is lucky she can speak so eleloquently, because she'd be just another negroe if she didn't create a niche for herself. Look at how many Black women have won Oscars, for leading roles. Halle (whose mother is White and father is Black) in like 30 years, HA! We haven't moved , and when White actressed were polled about who they'd like to look like, they didn't name Angela Basset or Whoopi Goldberg, most named Halle, a bi-racial woman, why because "she has a lil white a lil black" lol. Oh and Blacks play baffons in movies, we play maids still, nannies, the same shit just dressed-up differently.

As far music moguls, man please ONLY ONE BLACK WOMAN SITS ON THE CHAIR OF A MAJOR MUSIC LABEL. That's Sylvia Rhone of Elektra/Wea/Warner Bros. Even Black execs complain. ALL BLACK A&R executives work in the URBAN OR BLACK MUSIC DEPARTMENTS, NEVER in Rock n' Roll, never in POP, or hell WORLD MUSIC. But still these Blacks promote whorish images, gansta music, and baffonary. The rest well, sell us shorter than we sell ourselves. So kill the bullshit Marque man. I could go on for days. BET is a joke, as them why they are scraming to re-vamp their programming, it's a damn shame, so much potential and all they do is play "shake your ass real fast, big booty girl", "hey boo, baby mama" crap. I don't mind that sometimes, but not ALL THE TIME, there is more to the Black experience than movies, music, and sports. The best thing on BET is TEEN SUMMIT, which speaks the truth in helping our youth understand it's not all about the "bling bling".

It is sad how we with all the progress, really haven't progressed, we'd rather play victim instead of realizing the power we have as a whole, we are some divided as people and any Black person who is honest about this knows I speak nothing but the truth. It hurts like hell, but we get no where with sprouting around like out shit don't stink, or that we are far more advance than say Brazil. Cause buddy-boy were not, we are just as ass backwards. We allow others to dictate us and this is truth. We are religious to a fault, we want to be lead rather than lead. Its' truth and we are hung-up on race so much that we don't move, we just stay stagnant.

My generation has yet to fight for anything, no my ancestors and people before me faught, all we do is make claims, blame, and stay complacent. Please my rother kill the bull, cause I can tell you a million things that show we are no better or far advance than Brazil.

Oh and out of all the music Blacks contribute each year to the American culture less than 5% of the members on NARAS (GRAMMIES) are Black, this has been an issue as well, even less on the Academy (OSCARS). So don't fool yourself, and even less work behind the scenes or are "shot callers" you know, studio execs, development people, sign the checks, screenwriters. Hell it's so bad that book publishers have to create a "black bookline" and offshot of their major book lines. So fucking sad, and all we get are either "black romance, black violence, black world" the shit can be mind-blowing and numbing. It's like can we get out the box for a minute. Oh and what about all the Blacks who refuse to vote, or fill out the census report? Holding on to some old ass notion that we are somehow not helping ourselves if we vote, come on give me a break. Laziness lies within out community, and I know why, but that's no excuse. We have more opportunites than the average African or Black anywhere else, what do we do--NADA! We make slow ass snail movements. We' much rather shake our butts, sing to a rap song, or play victims in every situation.

Oh and racism exsists remember James Byrd, Amadou Diallo, man the KKK, shit it's still here. If America was so perfect we wouldn't need Affirmative Action, something that's a double edge sword. We have to be told how to treat eachother.

Everyone is afraid of being snuffed-out, everyone is afraid of losing their place in the world. So sad, and it's not just exclusive to Blacks. Every group of people have this issue, it's usually fear that we act on.

How about you for once speak like a person with some sense, and answer some questions. I think you just like to add shit to add it, and sadly I'm sorry your Black.

I'm just tired of your stance that "we are the champions" bull, because we aren't my friend, we are in many ways just as sad as the state of any country where two groups can't and refuse to understand eachother. Yeah we try, but hey man we all use excuses.

So to Brazilians on this forum please know and note not all BLACKS in America feel or even share the same feelings as Marquesleazy. The educated ones know that we can't compare our issues with yours.

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Fernando B, while I respect your opinion. Please note that BET has shown Whites and Latins on it's channel, especially the music videos, and even movies they re-run. BET is not the only channel in America that caters to a certain group of people, we do have Univision and Telemundo both which service the Latin community. There is the country music channel, which has basically no Blacks or Latins, but this is mainly because of the lack of both in country music mainstream. I have seen The Neville Brothers (Black men) on there. Some could argue that most Network TV in America doesn't show the true America, meaning void of any color be it Latins, Blacks, or Asians. BET, Telemundo, and Univision were created out of the issues stated above, the lack of representation of these groups of people on mainstream television, not to exclude. But to show our stories our way, but sadly some of these channels lost the vision that it began with. BET isn't the only one who makes their people look stupid. Telemundo and Univision have some serious issues as well, in fact you rarely see darker skinned Latins on either of those channels unless they are some famous singer. It's crazy American have yet to really change.

Darren.

(Edited by Guest at 8:18 pm on Feb. 3, 2003)

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 8:07 pm on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

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Hey Marques...

I could refute everyone of your claims, but why waste breath on an ignerint mother fucker?

So I'll content myself with asking just one question:

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? You really should, you know, as the police are on to your shit.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:47 am on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

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RE: Blackness and national identity.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I think most blcak Brazilians see their skin color in relation to their nationality in the same way they do their gender.

"Black" doesn't necessarily negate or modify "Brazilian" for them in the same way that male of female doesn't. People recognize both as identity categories but don't recognize the one identity as wiping out or even having anything to with the other.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:36 am on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

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Getting back to the point.

1) It is silly for any Black person to play games of 'COMPARATIVE OPPRESSION 101'. I don't have time for this 'who is more fucked-up arguement'. For those who play those games...."a pox 'pon both your houses" Whether the Belgians chopping off the hands of the Cameroonians, the Afrikaners roasting black people over bar-b-cue pits, the Australians herding the Aborigines like rats to the edge of cliffs and pushing them off, the Americans hanging them up in trees or the 'cordial racism' in Brazil that objectifies aspects of African culture while still trapped in a color based that daily destroys the soul of Afro-Brazilans... these ALL are in the category of 'FOUL SHIT'. And it is silly to compare shit with shit.

Or to compare the efforts of Ku-Klux-Klan racists or Patronizing Liberals. They eat of the same pot. They appoint themselves the arbiters of black progress. Buck-Tooth killers in the night or benovolent Tarzans they select and choose the 'good ones' and the 'bad ones'.

2) @Macunaima - every Black Consciousness Movement...every movement for Black pride....every movement for Black empowerment is NOT a BLACK NATIONALIST MOVEMENT. Black Nationalism was one of many ideologies. Martin Luther King was not a Black Nationalist, neither was Julian Bond, neither was Paul Robeson, neither was W.E.B. Dubois, neither (in his last days) was Stokely Carmichael a.k.a Kwame Toure. The Nation of Islam has elements of Black Nationalism in its tenets but also is not a Black Nationalist Movement.

You really need to get off of this 'African-Americans just want to imitate Africa' kick. Unless you understand the difference between the schools of thought of Molefi Asante (proponent of Afrocentricity) and Henry Louis Gates (at Harvard), a proponent of African-American history as an end in itself then you need to stop spreading some of these telescoped generalizations that you are making.

I have not encountered many Black Nationalist Movements in Brazil. But many Black Pride and Black Consciousness and Black Empowerment movements.

3) @Macunaima - (rather to all) You can go to the official Kwanzaa site to see what Kwanzaa has to say about itself (www.originalkwanzaasite.org) and not the interpretations of a white american ex-patriate in Brazil. This is the site of the Kwanzaa creator Ron Karenga. I'm sure that it was a figure of speech or the shorthand of the internet when Macunaima says "When he is told...." as if Karenga singled him out to explain Kwanzaa. If he didn't understand what 70 million others clearly understand well......okay. Kwanzaa is a derivation of what we feel was the glue of African communities. Africans have never copied other Africans and neither do we. There are many aspects of certain African cultures that are dysfunctional in today's world. Just as Picts and the Angles and the Saxons of England united into the Anglo-Saxons and took the best of their cultures and the rest disappeared. That is a fundamental teaching of Ron Karenga. That is the fundamental purpose of the priniciple of Kuumba - Creativity. We draw upon our past successes at survival and adapt to our current environment.

We take shit like legumes and rice and in Jamaica we make Rice and Peas, in Trinidad, we make Peas and Rice (small word competition), in South Carolina we make 'hoppin Johns' (rice and black-eyed peas) and in Brazil we make fejoada. If you think it's due to some Brazilian soul....fine. National pride...and all that. It's understandable. And there is a degree to which an ethnic culture is absorbed as a national or regional culture (consider the entire white American south whose every nuance and food and speech is the direct imitation of the Africans they oppressed.)

The Christmas season was chosen because owing to our dependence upon the American economy Karenga knew that poor families could not just take time off for an African-American created, but not officially sanctioned holiday. Most families would already see each other during the Christmas holidays and the goal of the Black Power Conference of 1966, at which many initiatives of Black Consciousness was initiated, was to not create elitist symbols for our people, attainable only by the middle class....but a clearly attainable one. I am both Christian and a profound celebrant of Kwanzaa, as are many in my church who have no problems with a celebration of Christ and a celebration of our culture and our achievements and our hopes for the future. What white liberals and their opinions are....who gives a shit. Actually Kwanzaa has helped to focus the African-American Christmas to a less commerical celebration.

4) @Macunaima - I'm wondering if you include Benedita Da Silva on your list of 'WE'. Considering that, by her own words, her impetus to run for elective office was by the man she admired, Martin Luther King. And later, in 1997 and 1998 she enlisted the aid of Jesse Jackson, Alice Walker, Toni Morrison...gave many speeches on the similarities (and dis-similarities) of the struggles in Brazil and other Diasporan communities. At that time her views did not echo thoss of Macunaima. I have not followed her statements since then.

5) The issue of class versus race. The European concept of duality....of either/or versus an African concept of parallelism (both/and) can be contrasted here. It seems that the contention is since a pride in yourself, in your people and your history....the ability to look into your own personal mirror....or the mirror reflected back to you in your grandmothers eyes or the eyes of your black playmates........that since this will get you a job.....then fuck it.

If that is the basic contention (or one of the basic contentions....) then there is a profound lack of understanding of the destruction caused by your racist images perpetrated in Brazilian society and the destruction of the soul, worldview and aspirations of the people that it affects.

And it affects Brazilians of all colors. The color caste system in Brazil affects all of those 'colors' in between. (and that is another discussion beyond the scope of this forum). The concept of 'colorhood' and the concept of 'peoplehood'). And perhaps Macunaima does not see it or chooses not talk about it but I can talk to any number of black, brown, tan Brazilians and (maybe because I'm a good listener) it does not take long to see the affects of the psychic burden of people trying to balance a demonic system with the 'horrivel niggers grasping for them at the bottom' and the 'glorious but never attainable "bem-brancos" at the other end.

As our people did here, you see a people who hide behind the objectification of themselves. (Whatever could not be hidden by crass materialism.) A big ass, the ability to shake their ass, or kick a football.) Dying their hair blonde.

6) It's so interesting that the attitudes of many Brazilians parallel that of the Southern white racists who insisted that their idyllic ante-bellum south was a land of racial harmony until the 'outside agitators' arrived. Because their 'nigras' ain't smart enough to conceive of this black consciousness communist stuff on their own.

In a study by Folha da Sao Paulo 90% of Brazilians (actually of the sampling) acknowledged racism as a big concern in Brazil but only 10% acknowledged that they ever did any thing racist. Okay. That's fine. However the study analyzed this same group on racist attitudes (intelligence, achievements, etc) and 87% strongly held racist viewpoints of black people. Okayyyyyyy! And it's interesting that my friends who seem to ignore the fact that I am proudly African-American will (and they are really nice people) display their clear bigotry in comments they make to me. Most recently, at a visit to Salgueros Samba school rehearsal.

So...not to get too carried away because I really need to eat breakfast. For Macunaima, I do have a problem with your use of absolutes and generalizations ("all", "never". You would be slaughtered at any of the academic conferences we have because of such statements. The question would be "are you led by your academics" or by a worldview of color.

An example: Several years ago over 200 'scholars' on Thomas Jefferson (all white and pompous) laughed and giggled and tittered because of the claims of some poor old 'colored' folks that they were the descendants of Thomas Jefferson throughh his slave Sally Hemings. This family had much evidence passed down by their ancestors. But these whites were academics....PhDs who had devoted their life to Jefferson. They laughed...they pooh-pahed.

Well....enter the world of DNA...and conclusively the men of this black family were descended from Thomas Jefferson.

Which I could care less. (I am descended from my glorious black grandmother and she was a Goddess...anything else can't compare).

But the question of how these academics had so blinded themselves in their worship of Jefferson that years of study could not change their idolatry of while male virtue.

Regarding authenticity: It was you who raised the point. It was raised in the context of cultural authenticity and not various activist intiatives. Those should be worked out by the people involved.

If those black people are looking over your shoulders...let me offer them some a piece of African-American ideology....on unity.

A nigger in Rio is a nigger in Salvador...is a nigger in Rondonia. Think big...not parochial. Listen to YOUR people first and others second. Among the gripes of my Brazilian friends in the States is the quickness in which the Blacks who have made it desert their people.

A bit of ideology from the American indians....consider the impact of all of your decisions on your 7th generation (thank you grandmother and grandfather...God rest your souls).

A final word on Jesse Jackson and uniting across racial lines. During his run for the presidency Jesse Jackson succeeded in creating a Rainbow Coalition (blacks, whites, hispanics and asians) that generated 33 percent of the vote at that time. And not one of those entities had to sell out their ethnic souls to respect the peoplehood of the other. Many academics have studied that phenomenon. And I am not a big fan of Jesse.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:16 am on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

BRENT

Newbie

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^^^^^^^^ Still Sweating ^^^^^^^^

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Total Posts: 22 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:27 am on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Adrianerik,

1) I agree completely. As Fanon says, arguing about which kind of inhuman behavior was more inhuman is worthless way to spend one's time.

2) I'm aware of that. Of course, the groups I'm talking about here are very open about their "afrocentricity", as, apparently, are you. I'm talking about the people Chico Cesar is directing his song "Mama Africa" to and their international cheerleading squad. If you think I'm dumping every black activist into the same category, you're mistaken. Finally, if you're talking ethnic identity over national identity, you are talking about ethnic nationalism, whatever label you want to give it.

"This is the site of the Kwanzaa creator Ron Karenga...."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there some controversy over Karenga's US organization's role in the deaths of certain Black Panthers during the COINTELPRO period?

Aside from Karenga's perhaps rather dicey politics, I think the whole idea of a unified Africa giving rise to any sort of cultural form is rather silly. And you accuse me of generalizations?! And no, Karenga didn't personally explain his vision to me, but I'm rather more interested in how its being used by the folks in the street, several of whom HAVE made the claim I've repeated above - that kwanza culturally came from Africa when in fact it was invented, whole cloth, in the 1970s by Black american nationalists. (BTW, if you're worried about potentially ludicrous claims, I certainly wouldn't imply that 70 million blacks celebrate Kwanza - maybe 7 million. E olha lá...) Whether you celebrate Kwanza or whether it's positive is not my point at all. I could really care less if it's traditional or synthetic. And, frankly, I DO think it's slightly had a positive, anti-consumerist effect as you state.

HOWEVER... I would not say that kwanza has African cultural content at all. I think it's simply a boundary marking stone, one more way of dividing the world into "us" and "them", built by black Americans. Insofar as that might be a necessary thing to have, I have no complaints about it.

The only reason I mentioned authenticity in the first place is due to certain Black activists' claims of it. I am not worried about whether something is authentic or not, but I will insist on setting the historical record straight when invented tradition is touted as millenial survival!

RE: Bené, I've translated for her in the U.S. and Brazil. I'm pretty well convinced that she thinks of herself as a Brazilian citizen and I thus very definitely include her in that "we", yes. I've voted for her. I've heard her give several choice speaches on how American solutions are not always appropriate to Brazil, too.

That she may have been inspired by certain Black Americans is no doubt true and I'm not at all suprised that she chooses to salient this when she's pitching her message to North American audiences. It makes good political and fiscal sense. However, I've also read interview after interview with her in the Brazilian press where she's said her main inspiration came from her family's history. I think her motives are far too complex for any one set of influences to account for.

As for what point you're trying to make by bringing Bené up, I'm at a bit of a loss, because I've never said or implied anywhere that Brazilian anti-racist struggle should isolate itself from its north american counterpart.

"Just as Picts and the Angles and the Saxons of England united into the Anglo-Saxons and took the best of their cultures and the rest disappeared."

Er... sorry. that's a rather romanticist view of British history. What current day phenomena do you see as being founded in these cultures, may I ask? I certainly don't see anything, but perhaps I'm not as well informed. Enlighten me.

"If you think it's due to some Brazilian soul....fine."

Huh? Where did I ever say that? I'm 100 percent against the idea that cultures have "soul", "spirit", "personality" or whatever sort of pseudo-religious mumbo-jumbo anyone would like to name. I don't think there IS a "Brazilian culture". I don't even think culture can be meaningfully objectified in that sense for ANY group of people.

"It seems that the contention is since a pride in yourself, in your people and your history....the ability to look into your own personal mirror....or the mirror reflected back to you in your grandmothers eyes or the eyes of your black playmates........that since this will get you a job.....then fuck it."

I'm a bit confused about what you're trying to say here. Perhaps you could be more clear.

In any case, I'm not quite sure I share your innocent, black/white, hypodescendant view of who "my people" are or are supposed to be. I was looking through the family album of a very black friend this weekend. It was full of white, mulato and caboclo cousins, aunts and grandparents, all of whom are in contact with one another, living a family life. Who are this woman's "people", then? Should she ignore her Portuguese grandfather because he's not phenotypically like her? And as for playmates, again, she had all colors. Now, none of this reduces the impact that racism has on her life, but if one wants to talk about "either/or" dualities, surely the binary black/white split preached by american hypodescendency is one of the worst!

"...it does not take long to see the affects of the psychic burden of people trying to balance a demonic system with the 'horrivel niggers grasping for them at the bottom' and the 'glorious but never attainable "bem-brancos" at the other end."

Like I said before, presume we manage to get rid of the race cut here. We'll still have a horrible system in which 90 percent of the population is in the hole. Something tells me, then, that race isn't the only - perhaps not even the main - source of our difficulties. Class has a whopping big role to play, too. If you think white skin uncomplicatedly translates into cash and power in Brazil, I know some rural communities in the south you can go visit.

"It's so interesting that the attitudes of many Brazilians parallel that of the Southern white racists who insisted that their idyllic ante-bellum south was a land of racial harmony until the 'outside agitators' arrived. Because their 'nigras' ain't smart enough to conceive of this black consciousness communist stuff on their own."

Of course, that has been no one's contention anywhere on this post, but I'm not suprised that you bring it up. After all, it's much easier to tar any Brazilian criticism of black American diasporism with this particular slander than it is to look into your soul and discover that yes, you too are capable of reproducing imperialism. I'm worried how international capital may be reinforcing a limited and limiting view of blackness in Brazil and for this I'm implicated of being the worst sort of commie-baiting redneck.

"For Macunaima, I do have a problem with your use of absolutes and generalizations..."

That's an interesting comment to hear from someone who speaks as if he were an elected representative of Black America. I've given you a couple of very specific instances where I feel that the afro-hype coming out of Bahia has worked to the detriment of black communities. That is certainly not an absolute or a genralization. When you asked about the more general terms I've used, I've immediately given you very crisp, workable definitions. This is in frank contrast toy your use of the royal "we" whenever you've bring up anything up dealing with black north american cultural phenomena. Talk about the pot calling the kettle afro-descendant...!

"You would be slaughtered at any of the academic conferences we have because of such statements. The question would be "are you led by your academics" or by a worldview of color."

First of all, no I wouldn't, if the academics in question were responsible and not a pack of ridiculous ideologues. My "all" or "never" statements refer to my personal, anecdotal experiences and are perfectly acceptable as such. If I were to say "All Black Brazilians say this", then maybe you'd have a point. When I say "All Black Brazilians I've met say this," it is, asside from being the truth, an acceptable annecdotal statement pertaining to the question at hand.

Secondly, I've gone to several academic conferences and I've published my views. To talk about "a worldview of color" as if such a thing existed independent of the real life networks of power, capital and priviledge is naive. There is no neutral ground upon which one can stand and have this kind of view. You cannot have a "worldview of color" independent from the privledged position you hold as an academic within American empire, just as I cannot have one that can be seperated from the position society affords me as a white man.

Were black brazilianists to analyze their connections to the lived structures of empire, critiquing their use of power and recognizing the multiple power imbalances they teeter upon, I wouldn't find their position so precarious or offensive at times. But I don't see this critique taking place anywhere. To hear people like Angela Gilliam (and I daresay Marqueseazy) talk, a certain quantity of melanin in one's skin is all one needs in order to implicitly understand everything about Brazil. This is ludicrous!

Am I wrong? Again, enlighten me if I am. Point out one black Brazilianist who's taken Paul Gilroy and Stuart Hall's warnings on American exceptionalism to heart. As they have repeatedly pointed out, being oppressed along one identary axis doesn't guarantee that one isn't the oppressor along others.

Yes, black American diaporists have an awful lot to offer brazil, but they need to engage in anti-imperialist self-critique in order to do so. To the degree that they do not, they risk recreating a civilizing mission mind state among themselves. We can see a GREAT example of this right here on this board in the comments od Marqueseazy. Many Brazilian activists and academics, of all colors, who privately agree with me would NEVER risk their funding by criticizing our Big American Brothers to their faces. You can rest assured, however, that the arrogance of imperial power is a topic that's never quite worn to the bone when I talk to black Brazilian activists about their experiences among their anti-racist American counterparts.

I can say what I say because I have little to lose and I feel that someone needs to point out certain aspects of the Emperor's attire that are perhaps unappropriate. The fact that you feel secure enough in your worldview to threaten me with the destruction of my academic reputation for thinking as I do WITHOUT EVEN ENGAGING MY CRITICISM HEAD ON, hiding instead behind a shopworn metaphor from the American south, shows all anyone needs to see about where real power lies along THIS particular axis of interaction.

Re: your commentary on Thomas Jefferson. I haven't a clue as to what your getting at here. If you feel I'm "idolizing white male power" then come right out and tell me how. I have nothing to do with whatever a pack of racist historians in the U.S. may or may not have done around this issue and refuse to be held responsible or connected in any way to their acts. Where I come from, this kind of argument would raise a lot of eyebrows if ever presented at an academic conference in conjunction with what we're talking about. People would find it superfluous.

"A nigger in Rio is a nigger in Salvador...is a nigger in Rondonia. Think big...not parochial. "

Really? Given that that's such a provable theorem, perhaps you'd like to translate "nigger" into Portuguese. "Criolo" doesn't even come close in terms of offensivness. And while one needs to think globally, one also needs to realize that every situation is different. Just because you ideologically proclaim something to be the same doesn't make it so.

"Listen to YOUR people first and others second."

Yes, as we can see with the current plans for the war in Iraq, you Americans are very, VERY good at this sort of thing, aren't you? I, on the other hand, try not to be so chauvinistic as I'm not even sure who "my people" are and I certainly don't think that ANY of the human groups I'm associated is unquestionably right about everything.

But then again, maybe that's because I'm just a blue-eyed devil made by the mad scientist Yakub and am thus genetically incapable of grasping these sort of deep human truths.

"Among the gripes of my Brazilian friends in the States is the quickness in which the Blacks who have made it desert their people."

Which is, of course, something that happens in both countries. This alone should tell you about the power class has to divide your mythopoetic "people".

What's really scary, Adrianerik, is how your romanticized vision of a "people" is something that Adolph Hitler would have recognized as very similar to his own. Adolph would be nodding his head going "Just so. That is why we must remove all the jews from Germany, which is OUR land, made by OUR people." The more I dela with you North American diasporists, the more I'm forced to conclude that Paul Gilroy knows what he's talking about.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:29 am on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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A correction on point #5

5) The issue of class versus race. The European concept of duality....of either/or versus an African concept of parallelism (both/and) can be contrasted here. It seems that the contention is since a pride in yourself, in your people and your history....the ability to look into your own personal mirror....or the mirror reflected back to you in your grandmothers eyes or the eyes of your black playmates........that since this will get you a job.....then fuck it.

Should read:5) The issue of class versus race. The European concept of duality....of either/or versus an African concept of parallelism (both/and) can be contrasted here. It seems that the contention is since a pride in yourself, in your people and your history....the ability to look into your own personal mirror....or the mirror reflected back to you in your grandmothers eyes or the eyes of your black playmates........that since this will NOT get you a job.....then fuck it.

Peace

(I think someone got lost. The forum for stupid people is on the old forum)

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:43 am on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

dean

Newbie

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Have any "black" Brazilians responded?

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Total Posts: 4 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 11:41 am on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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Nope, sold out. But we still have some tenacious rabid activists if you like. Just be carefull with their bite, it hurts.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:59 am on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

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How hard is to be Black in Brazil

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Macunaima

Member

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Y’know, Adrianerik, I got to thinking about your implied criticism that I’m attributing Brazil’s racial problems to outside agitators... In fact, I’m charging just the opposite. I’d LOVE to see some outside agitation on social justice issues in Brazil. I’d love to see anti-racist Americans – of whatever color – willing to put their lives, fortune and sacred honor on the line in order to help make this country a better place. I see very little agitation at all on race and class issues, however, almost none of it from outsiders.

What I DO see are people pushing ethno- and eco-tourism. I see some academics making a reputation by decrying Brazilian racism. There’s a handful of people dedicated to building a few minor, local liberal initiatives, like teaching favela kids to box as a counterpoint to the multi-billion real drug trade.

I see no gringos with any understanding of the Brazilian legal system, electoral politics, or constitutional law, however. I see no gringos wishing to acquire this kind of understanding at all. In fact, most of the time I see gringos of any color open their mouths, it’s to decry the very notion that Brazil HAS a working government or constitution.

Like it or not, those were the fields in which activism concretely aided black U.S. Americans. Karenga and his crowd were a loud, messy side-show, occasionally insightful, but manifestly unable to bring REAL change to America’s oppressed multitudes.

So get it right, Adrian. I’m not accusing certain diasporists of being outside agitators: I’m accusing them of being ineffective rebels, of not being revolutionaries, of offering inoperative solutions to relatively minor problems while helping direct attention away from the real meat-and-potatoes issues that affect millions of poor and black Brazilians. I’m accusing certain people of worrying about the goddamned frosting when they haven’t even got a cake. And I’m accusing “the Movement” (or whatever euphemism you’d like to put behind your royal “we”) of having lost control of the one game that should concern you most, the fight against anti-racism in the U.S., while you lecture Brazilians on how to run their affairs.

Agitators? I’d love to see an American equivalent of the freedom riders come on down to Brazil. Such devotion and commitment would be a refreshing change. Instead, Brazil gets to host post-modern Amos and Andy purveyors who aid in the construction of an endless stream of media-friendly “black” cultural artifacts to feed the global market’s maw.

If this is “agitation”, then Bull Connor can rest easy in hell.

Re: your point five. My point is that "pride" won't feed you. It's a good thing to have, undoubtedly, but the many ills so many have cited here - lack of housing, education, employment and health care in Brazil - will not be solved by pride.

Furthermore, having lived in many afro-brazilian communities, I wonder where you're getting this idea that Black Brazilians feel humble and inferior?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:06 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Whoops. That should be the "fight against racism" or the "anti-racist fight" in that last post. Not the "fight against anti-racism". Though come to think of it, the U.S. fight against anti-racism should also concern Adrianerik and his pals.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:14 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

ELEGANTGENT

Junior Member

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Darren, i could not have said it better myself.

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Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:13 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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BLACKS IN BRAZIL MAY NOT SEE THEMSELVES AS BLACK BUT IF THEY COME TO AMERICA THEY WILL GET A MAJOR REALITY CHECK CAUSE NOBODY IN AMERICA IS GONNA SEE THEM AS WHITES OR MORENOS LIKE BACK IN THEIR COUNTRY ITS A WHOLE ANOTHER BALLGAME HERE

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:53 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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Good for them that they don't come né?

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:28 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Thanks for telling us the extremely obvious, MArques.

In the future, the merely obvious will do.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:45 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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You've introduced another topic. The original point was not how big or massive various social activist thrusts are. You had placed a definitive parameter on what that involvement should be and what it should not be. That is what I replied to and you gave examples with which I disagreed.

My friends have been intimately involved in Cuba, South Africa and Haiti (I helped there) and Australia. It is our own time, our own money, except for South Africa (that was an initiative of the American Friends Service Committee). At the same time lawsuits on behalf of Black Farmers were filed against the Farm Bureau (and won), against Denny's (and won), against Marriott (and won). The point being that we are perfectly capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.

The topic also was not a referendum on Karenga. The 'movement' is a tapestry. We are a diverse people...not lemmings led by one super black god. Karenga offered what he offered. We are very good at chewing the meat and spitting out the bones. But we will not get into the game of dissing this or the other because they are not pleasing to some outside agenda.

There are over 2000 national black organizations across this country. It's been known a long time ago that there is a weakness in being psychologically attached to one charismatic leader. There is enough expertise in the various communities to create, develop leadership and pursue their own agendas. The organizations help to share experiences, shorten learning curves and give leverage when necessary.

The Movement are the thousands of little courageous groups and peoples tutoring and sweeping schools and taking in orphaned kids in South Carolina, taking people to court, saying 'no' when necessary, saying 'yes' when necessary...motivated by the knowledge that they are not alone but part of others who have resisted....in the words of the Cultural Nationalists....."expose, accuse, attack and present viable alternatives".

Same as Brazil.

And this forum is about Brazil....not African-Americans.

That is why the agendas and the parameters of their activism will not be set by your 'WE' or my 'WE'. Any outsider serves the direction of an organized community. Any so-called politico in Brazil needs to know that the problems in Brazil do not emanate from the ground....or the trees....or the water....but from people. And before this "we" dictates what the shape of activism in Brazil will be they also have to be more than holders of a Brazilian birth certificate and make the term 'Brazilian Solutions' more than an oxymoron.

I have no doubt that there are shysters and hustlers and poverty pimps in Brazil. That neither was the topic. We had (have) them also. You slap flies and mosquitoes when they get annoying. But the agenda for social activism should not have as its main priority chasing flies and mosquitoes.

I've been approached by several folks wanting to increase ethno and eco tourism. That's not my bag. But I've seen several motives. Some only see American dollar signs. But there are others who see the young european couples (boy and girl) who have no interest in sexual trysts but backpackt through the countryside and others see the older African-Americans (mostly women) who, in the words of the auther of Cream to Coal "don't see Baianas but tired black women trying to survive...same as their mothers and grandmothers".

Everything can be leveraged if there is an agenda.

The effort at boxing is admirable. It is pragmatic but as Maya Angelou says "you do the best that you can given the knowledge and resources available at the time".

A Black Consciousness movement is more than pride. And that is why it remains viciously attacked anywhere the ideology of white supremacy and the supremacy of western civilization is the dominant 'ism'. Why the Mormon Church waltzes into Brazil, with its doctrine that the violent Cain after killing Abel was cursed and turned black and there is no Brazilian outcry but native born Brazilians are labeled as divisive because they embrace the heritage of their formerly enslaved grandmother. Black Consciousness attacks the false worldview of history codified in racist churches, in false history books. The whitewashing of history (a-la Rudyard Kipling's THE WHITE MANS BURDEN). It scares whites who, deep in ther heart, rests upon the acceptance of white privlege (my spelling), who speak one way, but would not know what to do when the psychic foundation of false white history is peeled away and they are forced to be (oh-my-god!) normal human beings, products of a civilization that has done some good things, some bad things...some better than others...some worse than others.

In Cuba Afro-Cubans have education, housing and jobs but, even in a Socialist System, they are relegated to the bottom. Afro-Cuban music struggles to survive. The Socialist leaders prefer 'light' Cubans to work in the preferred businesses. It is the blacks and browns and tans selling their bodies to the same Europeans who can't afford a ticket to Brazil.

The point being that a people without a connection to themselves, not some sports/entertainment/big-butt connection but a sense of peoplehood that is greater than some political or economic system....then that people are just well-cared for slaves.

One of these days I'll introduce you to a few of the others. Not a movement. Just a few folks agitating. The others came from the States but they went to the forum in Porto Alegre.

Peace

Actually....Macunaima - I'd prefer you to 90% of the white americans i've met. We're pulling on the same rope....same direction....your rhythm is just 1/3...and mine is 2/4. (scientific fact)

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:16 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

ELEGANTGENT

Junior Member

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macuaniama, adrianerik, you both have valid points, but it appears that you both are letting personal feelings and opinions support your post. you both have great information. basically, there is difference somewhat between brazil and america and there is also some simuliarities. very broad span, no generalizing. in my opinion.

brazil always was a country of the future.

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Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:38 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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THERE IS A SAYING HERE THAT US AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE AND THAT IS THE BLACKER THE BERRY THE SWEETER THE JUICE AND HERE IS ANOTHER ONE SAY IT LOUD I AM BLACK AND I AM PROUD SEE WE DONT DENY WHO WE ARE UNLIKE BLACK BRAZILIANS.THE CARIBBEAN IS ALSO VERY AFROCENTRIC TOO CAUSE THEY ARE PROUD OF WHO THEY ARE.WITHOUT BLACKS THERE WOULD BE NO CARIBBEAN CULTURE OR MUSIC AND THE SAME THANG FOR HERE IN THE U.S US BLACKS INVENTED THE BEST GENRES OF MUSIC LIKE JAZZ,R&B,AND HIP HOP.AND THE CARIBBEAN BLACKS INVENTED REGGAE AND THE AFRO CUBANS INVENTED ROMBA.AFRO CUBANS ARE PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST IF NOT THE MOST PRO BLACKS IN ALL OF LATIN AMERICA.I REMEMBER CASTRO SENT OVER 20,000 CUBAN SOLDIERS TO ANGOLA TO TRY TO HELP STOP THE WAR OVER THERE YOU KNOW WHY BECAUSE THE BLOOD OF AFRICA RUNS DEEP THROUGH THE ISLANDS OF CUBA AND THE REST OF THE CARIBBEAN.IMPORTANT BLACK LEADERS LIKE MALCOLM X EVEN VISITED CUBA BEFORE AND ANOTHER THING TOO WITHOUT BLACK CUBANS THERE WOULD BE NO CUBAN SPORTS FOR EXAMPLE LOOK AT THE CUBAN VOLLEYBALL TEAM MALE AND FEMALE THEY ARE ALL BLACK AND THEY WIN ALOT OF MEDALS WHETHER IT BE IN THE OLYMPICS OR THE PAN AMERICAN GAMES.I ALSO READ IN AN ARTICLE ONCE THAT CUBA HAS THE SECOND HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF BLACK DOCTORS SECOND ONLY TO THE U.S NOW THATS SAYING SOMETHING IF BILL CLINTON WAS THE U.S'S QUOTE "FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT" AS MANY AFRICAN AMERICANS JOKE ABOUT THEN I WOULD SAY FIDEL CASTRO IS CUBA'S "FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT" BECAUSE BEFORE CASTRO CAME ALONG AFRO CUBANS HAD IT REALLY BADLY

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:06 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

ELEGANTGENT

Junior Member

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markeasy, don't know about that. castro and bubba are an insult to all humanity. also

question:

cuba, stop the war in angola?

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Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:20 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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I REMEMBER FORMER BLACK PANTHER AFENI SHAKUR LIVED IN CUBA BUT I DONT KNOW IF SHE STILL DOES THOUGH

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:10 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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God, Marquesleazy, you are your own worst parody.

Adrianerik, THIS is the black consciousness you're on about? American imperial arrogance and hallielujahs to black consumer T.V.? Wow, what an advance in human thought we're missing out on down here...

"You've introduced another topic. The original point was not how big or massive various social activist thrusts are. You had placed a definitive parameter on what that involvement should be and what it should not be."

Excuse me, but what definitive parameter are you talking about? I merely criticized certain trends I've noticed coming out of Salvador. That's hardly a definitive parameter. I suggested that internationals supporting this stuff have some deeper thinking to do. That's hardly a definitive parameter. And finally, I pointed out that cultural initiatives, while nice, have a piss-poor record of building lasting change if not tied to real political and economic power. That most definitely is not laying down a definitive parameter.

So what exactly are you talking about? I don't know about where you come from, Adrian, but where I'm sitting, this sort of slick rhettorical move you've just made is what gets you trashed at conferences.

"At the same time lawsuits on behalf of Black Farmers were filed against the Farm Bureau (and won), against Denny's (and won), against Marriott (and won). The point being that we are perfectly capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time."

Which is why, of course, things are going so well for blacks in the U.S. Are you folks so capable in Brazil, I wonder? What legal initiatives are you backing here? Do you have lawyers on call? Can you provide legal support to Brazilians looking to get legislation passed? Can you folks even READ a legal document in Portuguese?

"Karenga offered what he offered. We are very good at chewing the meat and spitting out the bones. But we will not get into the game of dissing this or the other because they are not pleasing to some outside agenda."

I just found it ironic that you were supporting even part of the social agenda of a man responsible for the death of other black activists. The only meat and bone I've heard of Karenga chewing was that belonging to Bunchy Carter and Jon Huggins. But I suppose the Black Panthers were part of that "outside agenda" you're talking about...

"There are over 2000 national black organizations across this country."

Then what's this royal "we" stuff that comes out of your mouth everytime you talk about American blacks? Again, you call me imprecise and overly vague?

"And this forum is about Brazil....not African-Americans."

Excuse me, but didn't you just make a claim in your last post that it's the same shit everywhere? Why the sudden 180 degree turn?

"That is why the agendas and the parameters of their activism will not be set by your 'WE' or my 'WE'."

My "we" is simply the Brazilian polis, the citizens of Brazil. You can bet your Afro-Reggae commemorative poster that the agendas and parameters of Brazilian activism will be set by my "we". What your "we" is doing, other than buying tickets to party in Salvador or Porto Alegre, I have no idea. What little I've seen doesn't impress me. Perhaps I'm ignorant. Show me I'm wrong! It seems that the only time "we" can get "you" to work with us on issues is when there's a party involved. Lots of gringos at Porto Alegre right now. How many of them do you think will stay on in Brazil after Carnaval?

"I have no doubt that there are shysters and hustlers and poverty pimps in Brazil. That neither was the topic. We had (have) them also. You slap flies and mosquitoes when they get annoying. "

They're getting out of control and here in the tropics, they carry disease. Only a Northerner would rate mosquitoes and flies as a nuisance. If you'd ever had to suffer through dengue, you'd never choose such an unfortunate (or perhaps serendipitous) metaphor.

"But the agenda for social activism should not have as its main priority chasing flies and mosquitoes."

Which, despite the annoyance, isn't what I'm proposing. Out of the six or seven things I've had to say about race in Brazil, only one - my wariness of the whole Salavador afro hype scene - got your nose out of joint and we've been arguing about that ever since. I stand by my original staement: Salvador doesn't impress me. If you don't like that, fine, but that's hardly a call for an anti-Bahian crusade on my part.

"Everything can be leveraged if there is an agenda."

No kidding. I just wish certain diasporists would be just a wee bit more honest with themselves and others about what their agendas in Brazil might be. What's yours?

"The effort at boxing is admirable."

No it isn't. It's fucking ridiculous. The CV is laughing their asses off at these people. Kids aren't getting involved with drugs because they lack excitement, they're doing it because it's a real, concrete job opportunity that pays better than ANYTHING else they are liable to get. To the degree that this program convinces people that "something is being done" about drugs in the favela, it detracts from real solutions. we can do muchj better work than this with what we've got, if we just had the balls to be honest with ourselves as to what's going on. They'd be better off taking all the program's cash and simply handing it out on the hill.

But hey: it gives a few American liberals something to put on their resumes when they leave here for their next career move, so I guess it's all worthwhile.

Re: white fear of black consciousness. Only someone who's never really sat down and chatted with hardcore racists face to face would make a statement like that. Sorry to bust your lil' red, black and green bubble, but none of the white racists I grew up with give a flying fuck about "Black Consciousness" one way or another. They probably couldn't even pronounce the words and they certainly don't know who the hell Kipling was. Fear is not what's motivating them: bone deep ignorance and self-loathing is what moves Bubba and you shouldn't be kidding yourself that it's anything but.

Re: Kipling's WHITE MAN"S BURDEN, the most ironic thing about it is that many diasporists seem to be engaged in a post-modern version of it, bringing light, happiness and civilization to the ignorant, humble, underdeveloped (or whatever adjective you favor) natives overseas. Kipling's poem talks about the "noble" sacrifice "civilized" men must make to uplift their less-fortunate brethern in far-off pagan lands. I'd like to think that you have more capacity for self-critique than this, but a civilizing mission is certainly what Marqueseazy is all about and he seems to be a fellow traveller of yours. MarqueMarque here considers himself to be a proponent of "black consciousness" and I have rarely seen such an extreme example of imperial chauvinism. WHITE MAN"s BURDEN, indeed...

Re: Brazil and outside agitators. You've made several of these rather generic yelps that you're being criticized by anonymous Brazilians who see you as being a dangerous outside agitators Would you care to supply us here with the names of these gentlepeople? I hear a lot about them, but I see very, very few folks with the viewpoint you describe. If it's such a common syndrome, then surely you can provide me with the names of at leats three Brazilians who are currently opposing your work in this fashion.

As for the Brazilian government's relation to the Mormons, having seen what's been going on in mission law makes me believe that you simply don't know what you're talking about. The Mormons and every North American missionary church are seen in very bad light in Brasilia and the Ministério dos Estrangeiros is up the Later Day Saints' gringo asses in a very big way. It is not at all easy for them to get visas and permission to prosletyze doiwn here, despite what your friends in Salvador might think.

"The point being that a people without a connection to themselves, not some sports/entertainment/big-butt connection but a sense of peoplehood that is greater than some political or economic system....then that people are just well-cared for slaves."

Again, I ask you: who is this "we", this "people" you're talking about? You're postulating a "people" that simply doesn't exist on ground level in Brazil and - I daresay - in the States. There's no "there" there except in theory! Are my friend's white and Indian relatives part of her "people", or do youn think she should cut them off so that you North Americans can feel more comfortable about an arbitrary color line draw during the closing days of U.S. slavery?

"Actually....Macunaima - I'd prefer you to 90% of the white americans i've met. We're pulling on the same rope....same direction....your rhythm is just 1/3...and mine is 2/4. (scientific fact)."

Actually, Adrianerik, I'm more of speed-metal thrasher or a samba and choro man, myself. The waltz just doesn't do it for me. Scientific fact. And if you think that European music is limited to 1/3 time, you need to rethink some of your history. There's nothing scientific at all about your belief nor are your ideologies "African" as opposed to my supposedly "European" ones. You're too smart a guy to be repeating this namby-pamby "my sacred people" shit without realizing where its philosophical roots come from. I'll give you a hint: it ain't Africa.

As for whether you like me more than other white people, well... I'll let you in on a little secret. Having grown up redneck, I'm a HELL of a lot more afraid of the Bubbas of this world and their Yuppie allies than I am of any passel of angry black activists. I'm not in this for my academic career, or to be seen as a nice liberal white guy by black folks, so I have no need to be politically correct or mealy-mouthed. And I'm informed enough about my own history to realize that racist theories were applied to white folks like me long before they were applied to blacks. Or do you really believe that the Powers That Be in this world consider all white people to be the same type? That's the kind of trash they may hand out to their Klan thugs, but it's not what they talk about among friends at the country club. I'm always suprised when I hear black people passing this kind of nazi propaganda back to me as if it were God's millenial wisdom.

"Listen to your own people first...", indeed. Who are my people Adrian, have you ever considered that? When you say trash like that, I hear the racists of my youth in black voice. That's the philosophy of social darwinism, your spouting there, Adrian, not the wisdom of seven genreations of black grandmas. Even ignerint trailer trash like me can recognize that. Pretty scary that you seem to think it's such hot shit.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:17 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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That's Assata Shakur, Sleazy. Get your fuckin' history right.

Shit. Kid claims he's into black consiousness and can't even remember his ancetor's names.

Sad.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:19 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Gawd this is boring. Aren't some of you tired of the books you've written on this topic? Some of you need a podium or something.

. . .still waiting to hear the thoughts of a Black Brasilian, like first hand experience from them.

No offense but yawn to all this Black and White American redderick.

Can we somehow steer this topic back to the original question? I know I don't have to read, but I am trying to learn, the rest I don't care about personally and since some of you just want to go on and on and on and on and on off topic. Well it's just kinda a bore. I'm not trying to be offensive. It's just that if I wanted to learn about Black and White issues, I'd go go a board that caters to that, it's like who bought America into the topic. I felt the original question was pretty specific.

Well carry on. I'm sure you will no matter.

God Speed.

(Edited by Guest at 7:26 pm on Feb. 4, 2003)

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:07 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Adam

Junior Member

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obrigado

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Tchau

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Total Posts: 64 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:55 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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You still have faith that one "afro-brazilian" will care to enter this forum, and then answer your question in the middle of this warzone? Hop into the shadows and have fun, it is hard to find such an interesting discussion nowadays.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:07 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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GOOD LUCK IN FINDING A BLACK BRAZILIAN FOR THIS FORUM ODDS ARE IF YOU FIND ONE HE OR SHE PROBABLY WOULDNT CONSIDER HIM OR HERSELF BLACK ANYWAYS THEY WOULD PROBABLY CONSIDER THEMSLEVES BRANCO OR MORENO,MULATTO,MESTIZO ANYTHANG BUT BLACK.ATLEAST US AFRICAN AMERICANS DONT HAVE AN IDENTITY CRISIS WE KNOW VERY WELL WHO WE ARE THATS WHY YOU CAN NEVER REALLY HAVE BLACK MOVEMENTS IN BRAZIL SINCE MOST BLACK BRAZILIANS DONT EVEN SEE THEMSELVES AS BLACK ONLY 6% DO THE OTHER 45% SURE AS HELL DONT.IN AMERICA WE DONT HAVE THIS MULATTO CRAP ALL OF US AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE BLACK WE DONT TURN OUR BACKS ON OUR AFRICAN ANCESTORS LIKE BLACK BRAZILIANS DO.AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE BLACK REGARDLESS IF WE'RE LIGHTSKINNED OR DARKSKINNED BUT WE STILL BLACK TO SAY OTHERWISE IS RIDICULOUS.THE SAME THANG WITH BLACK CARIBBEANS THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE AND BLACK BRAZILIANS ARE THE ONLY BLACKS IN THE WORLD WITH A SERIOUS IDENTITY CRISIS I BET NEXT TIME BRAZIL HAS A CENSUS INSTEAD OF 6% OF BRAZILIANS SEEING THEMSELVES AS BLACK IT WILL PROBABLY BE 1% WHILE THE OTHER 5% WILL BE WHITEWASHED INTO THINKING THEY ARE SOMETHING ELSE

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:33 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Hey MarqueMarque!

Stopped beating your wife yet?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:17 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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To get back to the original topic, I'd rather be Black and rich in Brazil than white and poor by a loooooong fuckin' country mile.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:25 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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DONT YOU MEAN RICH AND MORENO REMEMBER SINCE MOST BLACKS IN BRAZIL DONT SEE THEMSELVES AS BLACKS CAUSE THEY IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS BEING MORENOS.BRAZIL SHOULD START A MORENO CONSCIOUS MOVEMENT,MET MORENO ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION,AND THE MORENO PANTHERS LOL BRAZIL A MORENO DEMOCRACY VERY MORENOCENTRIC AINT IT LOL

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:49 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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SO IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT SALVADOR AINT REALLY PREDOMINANTLY BLACK SALVADOR IS REALLY PREDOMINANTLY MORENO SO I GUESS PELE,BENEDITA DA SILVA,MILTON NASCIMENTO,AND THE CAST OF THE MOVIE CITY OF GOD ARE REALLY ALL MORENOS RIGHT SINCE FROM YOUR BRAZILIAN PEOPLE'S DEFINITION OF RACE THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT THEY COULD POSSIBLY BE BLACK RIGHT I MEAN GOD FORBID IF ANY OF THESE MORENOS ARE CALLED BLACK LOL

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:01 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Next time I talk to Bené or Ivanir de Santos, I'll say that according to some BET fan in San Francisco, they don't exist as rich, powerful self-identified black Brazilians.

That should be good for a laugh.

Now don't you have some gyrating moreno butts to go jack off to, MarqueMarque?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:37 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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I'm at another computer. I don't want to go cut and paste and show the path and context of your comments. Rhetorical change? Interesting.

I'm not complaining. Any of our efforts have not been rejected by anyone. Where did that come from?

A final point......The battle between US and the Panthers was as a result of the letters planted by the operations of COINTELPRO to foster a battle between them. (info available de-classified documents).

Our lesson today is their inability to have established communications between themselves.

That's all.

Ta-ta!

ps - I have met many of your racists face to face. I'm from South Carolina. I have three cousins in the ground because of them.

Racism is more than 'yahoos' with 2 by 4s in South Carolina. You know that.

Adrianerik

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:29 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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"I'm not complaining. Any of our efforts have not been rejected by anyone. Where did that come from? "

I haven't the slightest notion of what you are talking about.

The US/Panther split existed long before COINTELPRO used letters to intensify it. Though the FBI is certainly as much to blame as Karenga, it was he who went ahead and ordered the killings and the blood of Huggins and Carter ultimately can't be washed off his hands by bleatings that "The FBI made me do it!" If Karenga was that gullible that a poorly conceived and executed COINTELPRO would induce him to kill fellow black nationalist activists, then he wasn't playing with a full deck anyhow. Everything I've seen about the man indicates that he's learned nothing since.

"I have met many of your racists face to face. I'm from South Carolina. I have three cousins in the ground because of them."

I have two good friends who are dead because of white siupremacists, too, so please don't call them "my" racists. And though racism is certainly more than the Klan and affiliated baboons, my point was never that it wasn't. My point was, simply, that racists aren't "afraid" of black consciousness, as you claimed. Would that they were. They are by-and-large motivated by the same "my sacred people" feelings as yourself. Surely YOU know that.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:06 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Theory, Practice and Race in Brazil and the U.S.

The debate here on whether or not Brazilians of African descent consider themselves to be “Black” – though brought up by the ever ignorant Marquesleazy – sheds some light on differences between race in Brazil and the U.S.

As the founder of modern ethnography, Branislaw Malinoswki, pointed out close to a century ago, the actual functioning of any human community is generally not congruent with the way its members SAY it should function. Malinowski identified the two sides of this split as “theory” and “practice” and showed that, whatever the theory was about a given social phenomenon, practice was usually quite different.

Race in Brazil and the U.S., while working, practically, in very similar ways is seen from very different theoretical underpinnings.

Americans, theoretically, believe in hypodescendency, the idea that one drop of “black blood” makes one black. Brazilians, again theoretically, believe in a range of human colors stretching from black to white with a wide mestiço ground in the middle.

In life as it’s lived, however, both systems recognized a bilateral division between white/not white AND a hierarchically organized color-graded scheme.

While Americans love painting the world in black and white, no shade of gray needed or wanted, even a short jaunt to the States will show anyone that the lighter a black person is, the better off he or she is liable to be. The vast majority of America’s “black” elite probably wouldn’t call itself black or be called such in Brazil. Many, in fact, would and do say they are white. “Passing”, as I’ve mentioned above, is a very American phenomenon in which a light-skinned Black person reinvents himself or herself socially as white. So it’s completely incorrect to say that the U.S. is a nation divided between blacks and whites and that color counts for nothing. Obviously, it does. When was the last time you saw a very black man who was not a sports star or musical celebrity on U.S. T.V.?

Brazil, on the other hand, likes to think it’s escaped this neat black/white duality. In reality, however, there is a divide between white and not white that’s as radical in practice as it is in the States. Though Brazilians like to portray themselves as “mestiços”, when push comes to shove, it’s always the person that’s one tone darker than the one talking that’s “really” black.

Now the funny thing about all this is that Brazilianists of all nationalities and colors waste tons of ink debating the theoretical side of things but rarely, if ever, look into how race practically works in Brazil. When we get down into the nitty-gritty daily life, we find that racial accusations, labels and epithets are all CONDITIONAL. The person who proudly claims African heritage for herself today will be trashing on someone else’s “nappy” hair tomorrow. Is this really all that different from the way things work in the U.S.?

50 years ago, Oracy Nogueira said that if we were really interested in looking at racism in Brazil, we should perhaps study Black Americans own racial prejudice. This would give us a better model for the way things work in Brazil than looking at white American race prejudice.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:22 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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BRAZIL IS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHERE PEOPLE REFER THIS MULATTO CRAP THE U.S,THE CARIBBEAN,AND AFRICA DONT CERTAINLY DONT PRACTICE THIS THANK GOD CAN YOU IMAGINE FOR EXAMPLE IF BOB MARLEY CALLED HIMSLEF A MESTICO THEN ONE OF HIS FRIENDS WOULD SAY WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MON YOUR BLACK WHAT THE HELL IS A MESTICO YOU BE SMOKING THAT GANJA AGAIN MON LOL.EVEN THOUGH BOB MARLEY WAS HALF WHITE HE STILL DECLARED HIMSELF BLACK BECAUSE HE IS NOT GONNA TURN HIS BACK ON HIS AFRICAN ANCESTORS NOW THATS AFROCENTRIC FOR YOU.BRAZIL CAN NEVER CAN TO BE AFROCENTRIC WHEN ITS PEOPLE DENY THEIR AFRICAN BLOOD YOU CANT HAVE AN AFROCENTRIC SOCIETY IF THE PEOPLE ARE ASHAMED TO ASSUME THEY ARE BLACK BRAZIL IS FAR FROM A PRO BLACK SOCIETY BRAZIL SHOULD LEARN A FEW LESSONS FROM THE U.S,CUBA,JAMAICA,THE BAHAMAS,AND EVEN THEIR NORTHERN NEIGHBORS WITH A PREDOMINANTLY BLACK POPULATION THAT BEING THE GUYANAS

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:11 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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JAMAICANS ARE ALSO ANOTHER PROUD GROUP OF BLACK FOLKS AND THEY ACTUALLY HAVE THEIR OWN AIRLINES AIR JAMAICA ITS GOOD TO SEE MY PEOPLE DOING THINGS AND FOR ONCE THE PILOT WAS BLACK AND SO WERE ALL STEWERDESS THERE SHOULD BE MORE BLACK OWNED AIRLINES LIKE AIR JAMAICA

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:20 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Loco

Newbie

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Brazilians see the diferents races as the way that we want, will not be americans who are going to teach us what is black and what is white.

When some north american say to me that brazilians are murders because are killing indians I think funny...its the old american hipocrysy....

US its one of the most racist countries of the world, the only diference is that you have many blacks living better there than in others countries.

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SEI LÁ

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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:29 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Actually, according to my friend Beto who worked in Jamaica for several years, "mulato" is also a race category there. he was always called a "brown man" by the locals, never a "black man", though North americans unhesitatingly label him black.

I wouldn't say that a person who calls themselves a mulato is necessarily turning his or her back on anything. I think s/he has the right to look to all their "peoples" if they want to.

Y'know, it's funny Marquesleazy: neither you nor Adrianerik have answered the question I posed two or three times now.

My friend Silvia is a self-described Black Brazilian who's also working on her doctorate at my school. She's been watching this debate develop with great interest but has not, as of yet, decided to enter it.

Her one question - after showing me the pictures of her family - is this:

"These two black guys there go on and on about 'their people' and how I'm supposed to be part of it, but they probably don't even speak my language. This Marqueseazy guy looks to be a real idiot who knows nothing about Brazil. Adrian seems smarter, but I still wonder what basis he thinks he has for calling me 'sister'? Here's my grandfather: Portuguese. Here's my other grandmother: Indian. I have no problems calling myself Black and being happy and proud of who I am. But listening to these two guys' arguments, I should, based on the color of my skin, cut real life family out of my definition of 'my people' in order to close ranks with black gringos? Why would I consider Marqueseazy to be 'my people' over, say, my white cousin, when Marqueseazy can't even show the smallest degree of respect for my country? Who the hell does he think he's talking to, anyhow?"

So that's a brief transcription of her rant. Maybe I can convince her to come on here and rap with y'all in Portuguese later.

Before that, though, how about showing some respect and attempting to answer her question, folks? To whit: why should Silvia cut family out of "her people" to close ranks with folks like Marqueseazy whose chauvinism against Brazil and Brazilians is - judging from his posts here - immense? why is Marques "her people" but her Portuguese granddaddy not?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:47 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Face it guys: you're hypodescendists. That's fine. but implying that that is the only way that one can look at the world is pure bullshit chauvinism, as well as being a great example of that "either/or" binary mentality that Adrianerik classifies as "European".

Funny. You want to be afro-centric, but the most non-African thing imaginable - binary division of humans based on skin color - is the one rock-solid given that underlies your philosophy.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:00 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Obrigado Loco!!!!

I'd like to hear from your Black Brasilian friends Macunaima, under their name of course. Damn I am keeping a vigil for Black Brasilians and this topic.

Can I suggest a message board that this whole race in America topic should go? There are a ton of websites that cater to this.

Hey Ze sadly I am wishing for that answer.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:55 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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DONT HOLD YOUR BREATH WHY DONT YOU JUST SETTLE FOR A MESTICO BRAZILIAN CAUSE FINDING A BRAZILIAN WHO IDENTIFYS HIMSELF AS BLACK IS ABOUT AS RARE AS SEEING A WHITE CUBAN VOLLEYBALL PLAYER LOL

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:39 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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HERE'S ANOTHER ONE FINDING A BRAZILIAN WHO IDENTIFYS HIMSELF AS BLACK IS ABOUT AS RARE AS A WHITE PERSON LIVING IN THE MIDDLE OF 110TH STREET IN HARLEM LOL

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:44 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Marqueseazy, I have concluded that all you do is speak out of your ass. I have also concluded that you will say anything to get a rise out of the posters on this board. Why because you make some of the most uninformed and ignorant comments I have ever read.

I live in Harlem, white people live on 110th Street, from Broadway to CPW, to Amsterdam etc. You clearly have never heard of Columbia University which is at 116th and Broadway (not to mention the University extends higher and lower than that) oh yeah it's an Ivy League University.It happens to sit right in the downtown version of Harlem. Lots and lots of white students, professors, and regular working folks live in and around the area. In fact my favourite eateries are in that area. Not to mention it's a nice part of the city. There are all sorts of affluent people living in that area, and not just white, but the majority are white. So where you getting this information is beyound me, it certainly doesn't seem you've ever visited the area, or even Harlem.

Man what sickness. Why don't you take your Brazil hating ass to some other board, you are truly making us Black folk look bad, as well as just about all Americans. Come on man lay off the 40's ounces and spliffs, from one Black man to you. Damn man you set us back with this misinformation.

I wonder if some beautiful Brazilian woman rejected your ass, must've been something or your just one of those internet stalkers or no-lifers. Man get an education already, pick-up a book, turn on CNN why don't you. Can somebody throw him a vowel, better yet a clue and a book.

Darren.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 6:25 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Doggone it! After a long post...my computer crashed.

Must be telling me to go to bed.

Lay-tah!

ps - Macunaima...tell your friend that she can call herself whatever she wants. Why do you ask me that question? You are the anthropologist. You know that race (a falsity), ethnicity (quite real), national identity (always changing..constant state of flux....rarely has mores), social identity (concrete but usually biased) are much more complicated than who your grandmother or grandfather was.

But if she chooses a label that is infected with the color-caste-system that Brazil has modified from 433 to....what is it is now....about 13 with a sense of higher or lower.....and does not fight to change it because an accident of genes makes her 'safe' than she does a disservice to her indian, portuguese and african blood.

I have never weighed in on what Brazil hopes to be.

Back at cha! Particularly on your partial description of the lessons of Black Nationalist/BlackPanthers/Nation of Islam/Pan-African milieu.

Not to mention the SCLC/NAACP split.

There were no gods.....just humans.

And blame all around.

There is a difference between the natural rivalry between the Nationalists and the Socialists that existed across the board and the conflagration that erupted on the East Coast.

I'm out.

ps - you woke up on the wrong side of the bed on an earlier post. I'll respond to that.

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:47 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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THIS IS FOR THE GUEST WHY YOU ON BRAZILIAN PEOPLE'S NUTTZ NIGGA THEY JUST A BUNCH OF UNCLE TOMS AND I SEE YOU ARE ONE TOO HOW CAN YOU DEFEND A COUNTRY WHERE 95% OF THE BLACKS DONT EVEN IDENTIFY AS SUCH WHY DONT YOU TAKE YOUR BITCH ASS TO BRAZIL AND CHANGE YOUR IDENTITY FROM BLACK TO MULATTO CAUSE THATS WHAT THEY ARE GONNA CALL YOU DOWN THERE YOU WANNA BE KNOWN AS A FUCKIN MULE GO AHEAD.

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:05 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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TO ME BRAZIL IS THE MOST RACIST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD ITS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TODAY WHERE BLACKS ARE STILL MAIDS,BUTLERS,AND NANNYS TO RICH WHITE FAMILIES REMINDS ME OF SLAVERY DAYS ITS 2003 BUT BRAZIL STILL GOT ITS HEAD IN THE COTTON FIELDS AND PLANTATIONS.BRAZILIAN BLACKS STILL GOT THAT YES MASTER MENTALITY

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:15 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Damn my system crashed too haha. Must be a bug in the system.

Marqueseazy, my name is Darren, which is at the bottom of my posts. I promise to register soon so you can keep-up.

I also doubt that any Brazilian would call me a mulatto man I look like Miles Davis and I love it. I love the skin I'm in and so do women.

I won't even touch that cursing your doing, because again you are the ignoramous not me.

But may I suggest a new hobby for you? One that doesn't involve this message board or even Brazil. I'd like to see you go to Brazil with this bullshit, you'd get your ass kicked for sho'. Get it together sleazy no one is listening anymore.

Oh and I love Brazil. My beautiful woman, mother of my child is Brazilian and she's a German Brazilian how you like them apples, we have a beautiful brown son haha. I know that shit eats you up haha.

Oh and there are several Black American nannies, maids, cleaning ladies, right here in America. We won't go back to the history lesson I gave you on the baffonary of some of our people man. You need to be honest, we are not saints in this perpetual game of stereotypes and we damn sure ain't free of racism within the black community and in America so kill the long-winded, ill-informed speeches. The fat lady is singing all over you, wake-up man and reach for a book while your at it. Me saying all of this doesn't mean I don't love being Black in fact it means I'm honest about our conditions WHICH ARE NOT THE SAME AS BLACK BRAZILIANS. OUR RACIAL ISSUES IN AMERICA ARE NOT THE SAME. Understand that sleazy and get over this hollier than thou bull you keep preaching. America is no rose on race til' this day.

Darren.

(Edited by Guest at 8:05 pm on Feb. 5, 2003)

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:52 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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AMERICA HAS MANY BLACK OWNED CLOTHING LINES LIKE FUBU WHICH MEANS FOR US BY US AND I CANT FORGET SEAN JOHN'S NOW WHAT ABOUT BRAZIL HMMM?

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:58 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Adrianerik,

Re: US/BPP split, I don't presume that anyone involved were gods. Quite the contrary. I just wonder if an 8th candle shouldn't be lit at Kwanza to the memories of Jon and Bunchy. It seems to me the least one could do, but that's just me. I'm rather persnickety about looking into where the traditions I pick up come from, especially when they are spiritual.

I'm more of an eclectic christian pagan myself, but I'm not so sure I'd be wanting to mess with any tradition someone like Karenga invented in the same way that I keep my hands off of anything Alestier Crowley made up. One can say that the ritual and the inventor are separate, I suppose, but I personally believe that karma sticks like tar to that kind of stuff.

Re: Silvia's activism... I think what we have here in Brazil is a mentality that is much more comfortable with apparent contradictions than the North American one. Silvia chooses to define herself as Black and is an anti-racist activist. From that, it doesn't logically follow for her that "her people" includes anyone with a drop of "african blood" anywhere the world over. Ethnic identity, as you well know, comes in many forms and degrees of openess, tolerance and inclusion.

Looking over my comment on race and class the other day, this is what she had to say:

"More important than your class or color in this country is WHO YOU KNOW. Look at X, a black woman. But she married the right guy, comes from a shabby genteel but very well-connected family and LOOK at how scholarships rain down upon her. Look how many job offers she gets. Then look at you: you're a white guy and pretty well educated, right? But as an immigrant, nobody KNOWS you. You have to struggle for even a third of the stuff x gets. And then there's me: I have the same schooling as X and was, in fact, a better student when we were coming up together. But I'm my familiy's only bread earner and no one would call my folks "influential", so I'm in the same boat as you, struggling for crusts from the high table. Finally, there's Y (a white female friend of ours who just dropped out of the program) who comes from lower middle class roots and gets no support from her husband or family for the "crazy" idea of going for her doctorate. What good did having white skin do her when push came to shove?She needed help from the right people but, being an unknown, got jack."

Looking at my comment that I'd rather be black and rich over white and poor in Brazil, any day, Silvia sez:

"Ha! You can paint me green and call me a Martian. Just give me a rolodex with the right phone numbers and invitations to the right parties and I'll do fine in Brazil."

Adrianerik sez: "...social identity (concrete but usually biased) are much more complicated than who your grandmother or grandfather was."

Agreed. So how does that tie in with "the wisdom of seven generations of black grandmothers"? Seems to me that Silvia has a pretty damn good notion of who she is and where she's coming from without having to jump on the "my people" bandwagon in order to work against racism. she knows she's black. But she also knows that part of her heritage is Portuguese and she doesn't have a problem with that, either. As she says: "The Portuguese were assholes, but you have to admit, they were tough, smart assholes who knew how to glad-hand everybody. We wouldn't be what we are today if it weren't for them, the good and the bad."

MarqueyMarque:

Er, we never had too many cotton fields in Brazil, Marquey. Sorry. Black slaves planted sugar, coffee and mined here. What cotton picking occured was done by free labor. And yes, while there are plenty of black maids in Brazil, more than should be the case, there also always will be black maids here because its a job and 70 percent of our population IS black (by your standards at least). So if the proof that Brazil isn't racist is that there are no longer any black maids, then we'll be waiting a looooong time for the Jubilee, won't we? And surely you aren't telling me there aren't any black maids in the U.S.? When I was in DC at X-mas, it seemed like every janitor, check out person and security guard I met was black. I don't recall seeing ONE white person in these professions.

As for "Uncle Tom"... Y'know, I've always hated that term. It was turned into an insult by a bunch of fools who never bothered to read "Uncle Tom's Cabin" in the first place. If you had actually read the book instead of mindlessly adopting the term, MarqueyMarque, you would've realized by now that Tom was one smart motherfucker. He was running a station on the underground railroad and NONE of the white slaveholders found out about it because he kept a respecting smile glued to his face. I wonder how many peoples' lives Tom saved with his little shuck-and-jive routine. Smart man. Would that I were as smart. There's a lot worse things in this world that one can be called than "Uncle Tom."

Now, Thomas Driscoll, from Twain's Puddinhead Wilson... THERE'S an unsavory human being for you, whatever color you want to call him. I'd fight anyone who called me a Tom Driscoll. What you should be objecting to are Blacks like him who sell other Blacks down the river, Mistah Marquey, like... well, like your pals over at BET, to tell the truth.

Now, according to MarqueyMarque, Black Entertainment Television is one great advance for Afro-American kind. Having actually watched it, I'm not so sure. 90 percent of what it places on the screen is exactly the kind of programming Brazilian Black anti racists OPPOSE! From long experience, folks here know where the relentless objectification and sexualization of the black female body leads to.

Darren:

So your wife's a teuto-brazilian? Cool! from Santa Catarina or elsewhere? What's her family like? Some of those folks down there can be real biggoted scum. Many are very, very cool though.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:19 am on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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A bit busy.

Knowing the right people to get you THINGS is different from knowing the right things to make you a person.

Heritage is one thing. It is what others DID not you.

Legacy is another. It is a willful respect of the others before you who worked and died specifically for you and a willful committment to accept and continue that legacy.

It determines why we need 'things' in the first place and what we do with 'things'.

It is willful. A former friend of mine decided NOT to continue the legacy of the Indian (from India) side of her family. It was a legacy steeped in the caste system and bigoted to the bones. Her choice. She breaks from that and focuses on another.

When the essences of heritages and legacies of different people in your ancestry concur wonderful. Smile with the one group when they celebrate and smile with the other group when they celebrate. And defend both vicously.

When the heritage and legacy of one is of lies and destructive then be the beginning a blessed generation and cut the destruction. Chew the meat....spit out the bones.

All cultures and clans are not ordained by God to last forever.

Your friend's choice. But someone poured into her. She was not cloned. And someone nurtured the person who nurtured her. If she has no sense of contribution from her people into what she is (not just two X chromosomes finding each other) then fine.

She is 'self-made'.

Heritage accepted implies a legacy evaluated....perpetuated....or cast aside.

Peace

more on the lessons of the Black Power Movement later.

for me it was history lived not history studied.

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:54 am on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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While I can agree with your bit on "heritage" and "legacy" Adrianerik, rarely do I find this things to be couched in unambiguously black and white terms, physically or metaphorically. Your Indian friend might have found that her particular relatives were bigoted, but I wonder if one could then say that "Indian heritage" is unambiguously bigoted.

"Your friend's choice. But someone poured into her. She was not cloned. And someone nurtured the person who nurtured her. If she has no sense of contribution from her people into what she is (not just two X chromosomes finding each other) then fine."

And it turns out that those people are both white andd black.

NO cultures or clans are ordained by God to last forever.

Re: the Black Power Movement, thinking some more on your comment that Karenga was not God...

"Thou shalt not kill" is hardly a rule for Gods to follow.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:16 am on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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70% BLACK HUH THATS NOT WHAT MY FRIEND SAID WHEN HE WENT TO SAO PAULO HE SAID IT WAS MOSTLY WHITES AND JAPANESE EXPLAIN THAT HUH

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:04 pm on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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NOW WASHINGTON DC ON THE OTHER HAND IS 80% BLACK ITS WHAT US AFRICAN AMERICANS WOULD CALL A CHOCOLATE CITY I KNOW SINCE I HAVE GOT RELATIVES THERE AND I HAVE BEEN THERE AND I KNOW BET IS LOCATED THERE

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:08 pm on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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WHEN MY FRIEND WAS AT GUARULHOS INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT HE SAID HE FELT ALIENATED SINCE HE WAS THE ONLY BLACK PERSON THERE UNTIL HE GOT TO THE CITY AND EVEN THERE HE DIDNT SEE TOO MANY BLACK FACES AND HE SAID EVEN IN SAN FRANCISCO YOU SEE WAY MORE BLACK FOLKS THEN YOU DO IN SAO PAULO NOW THATS SAYING SOMETHING HE SAID THE ONLY NONWHITE POPULATION THAT YOU DO SEE ALOT IN SAO PAULO ARE THE JAPANESE.

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:16 pm on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Macunaima, I have no desire to get into your Karenga obsession. I had been one of Karenga’s critics and not because of the issue with the Panthers. It was because of his treatment, at the time, of the women in his organization.

I am, on one hand, at a disadvantage here, because, in trying to be more directed, I had decided that the context does not exist on this forum for a discussion on Karenga and the ‘experiment’ of the Black Power Movment in the United States from the mid-60s to the mid 70’s. I even felt bad just saying COINTELPRO….folks don’t know what the hell I’m (we’re) talking about.

On the other hand, I have a small advantage (maybe…I don’t know your history) because I am not some 19 year old who read books about this issue. And what I know comes from a very inside view.

But more importantly, I’ve seen the ability of people to get away from the personal to the needs of the community. I was a major opponent against Karenga participating in the various academic conferences in Philadelphia. But I’ve seen John Henrik Clarke (noted African-American historian…now deceased), Bobby Seale (co-founder of Black Panthers…living in Philly) and Elaine Brown (former chairperson of Communications for the Panthers) share a dias (at the CHEIKH ANTA DIOP conference and the DuBois conferences), hug and feed us their lessons on their mistakes, their successes. I have heard forgiveness asked and forgiveness given. And I’ve seen the community grow stronger because of this open exchange and it has helped not to romanticize the excesses of the ‘Back-To-Africa’ Black Nationalist group and the ‘adventurism’ of the various Socialist groups, including the Panthers.

And you are right….we do separate the message and the messengers. We suck the juice out of what Elijah Muhammad had to teach us as well as agreeing with Malcolm that he fathered children with his secretaries (Elijah Muhammad was the founder of the Nation of Islam). Amiri Baraka (poet and community activist) beat the hell out of his wife on a Greenwich street but that doesn’t stop us from absorbing the lessons from his activism in Newark and in igniting the new literary renaissance. I can even manage to respect Eldridge Cleaver (former Panther) despite the fact that in his book, SOUL ON ICE, he struck out at the man by raping white women. But only after he PRACTICED by raping BlackWomen.

I won’t question your right to harbor whatever personal animosities you’d prefer. However though I have taught my strengths are as an organizer and how to prioritize strategies for a specific result. I just feel that there is a bigger lesson for Brazilians in a thorough analysis of the Black Power Movement than a parochial analysis of Karenga. Some of the groups in Salvador that you don’t seem to like were the major initiators of the annual Zumbi celebration. It would cause confusion if you, or anyone else, decided to disparage the Zumbi celebrations because of their animosity towards one or the other of the founders.

Whether the lessons of the Black Power Movement in the United States complements the activists in Brazil is an issue for Brazilians to decide but I think that the ability for Brazilians to know what these lessons are for themselves get lost .

And that is a sore point with me. I have met too many ‘gringos’ in Brazil who revise American history to suit their own purposes before a captivated but ignorant Brazilian audience (that is not an accusation…it is a statement of my experiences. I don’t know you or your friends). And it is Brazilians who, for lack of resources or sometimes lack of caring, who do not verify these things for themselves. I had to cuss out my friends boyfriend (she….black girl from Ilha and he…blonde hair boy from Iowa) because he wanted to impress her by spreading the most vile stereotypes in America about African-Americans (and he knew none!) and she…gulping it down, in awe of this blonde-hair blue eyes showing attention to her.

I have a very big issue with deviating on threads in which the lack of context causes more confusion than clarification.

The oppression of a people is multi-layered. It is not just capitalism (or socialism). Not just racism (or regionalism). It is not just personal bigotry (or institutional bigotry). And activist successes have to be measured only in the light of what layer is trying to be defeated. And respect must be given to those local communities who know better than others what their needs are and what layers of oppression need to be defeated. Culture Nationalists defeat the oppression of imagery, of motivation, of self-esteem. There was a study and documentary done years ago that showed that black children up to the age of 6 had much more self-esteem than white kids. However, AFTER entering the school system…by age 9 these same kids saw no heroes that looked like them….saw no history of achievement of people who looked like them. They began to hate themselves. Their hair…their color. And these same kids would draw cartoons but the characters would have no eyes, or no feet or no hands….all the symbols of powerlessness). Those who defeat the racism in televison might not feed the masses but they defeat the partriarchal definition of authority only being in the mouths of ‘old white men’. They redefine what ‘an authoritative figure’ is. Those who study African dance (or other ethnic dance) defeat the chauvinistic idea that European ballet defines class. (this was the major avenue by which the Aborigines used an African-American developed arts movement (the two women are from Philly) to branch out into a strong community movement of the Aborigines.

It is for this reason I choose not to continually try to respond to each accusation that this or that initiative did not change THE PROBLEM! A clear agenda allows a respectful analysis of each initiative and where it fits into the multi-pronged fight against oppression.

The primary weapon against any people has always been Divide and Conquer.

In my personal opinion, Brazil is a diverse nation with various communities suffering different layers of oppression. And respect should be given to the voices of those communities as to which layers they want to deal with.

We have learned (are are learning) that the hard way in the States. African-Americans are diverse. The issues of urban New Yorkers are different than rural South Carolina and each has to respect the priorities of the other.

Okay….didn’t mean to make a long post (but the Michael Jackson interview is getting boring).

Peace

ps - Me and MARQUESEASY are quite different. Just as you and Brent are quite different.

For those interested in American Counter Intelligence Operations. Not the best site but a quick summary

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_Us/COINTELPRO60s_WAH.html

And...just to be vain...here is a flyer about a play about this period that Macunaima is talking about.

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:03 pm on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Macunaima, my wife's parents were reluctant to accept me at first. For one I didn't speak a word of Brazilian Portuguese nor German and that was reeking havoc on our getting our points across. When they saw me for who I am and not some Black gringo trying to rape, cheat, kill, steal their daughter away they eventually let their guards down and respected me for the man I am.

I am light with my translations but I do catch some negative words about me. But we don't live in Brazil (anymore) and for me that made the difference in our lives. I plan to move back with her if she wants to and I am slowlying learning Brazilian Portuguese as her English when I met her was par to none. I love my woman I didn't expect to fall in love with her but I did and the heart doesn't get to pick and choose.

What part of Brazil are you in Macunaima? I will be coming their for Carnaval this year with wife and son. She is dying to get back to her country, until we get there then she's dying to be back in NY. I don't get women at all haha.

Darren. Oh my parents well they are finding it hard to accept my non-speaking perfect English woman, but they are learning. I think people fear the unknown and that to me is what I see the most from everyone who encounters us, is fear of the unknown. I'm a man with a Master's degree in computer science. I don't have a million kids, I'm a good person and that to mean matters more than my skin. But hey life is like that sometimes just gotta prove em wrong.

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 11:28 pm on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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I BET THE ONLY REASON THAT GERMAN BRAZILIAN WHITE WOMAN MARRIED YOU WAS SO SHE CAN BECOME AN AMERICAN CITIZEN BECAUSE BRAZILIAN WOMEN WHO COME TO AMERICA DO THAT ALL THE TIME.WHAT YOUR PARENTS THINK ABOUT YOU MARRYING A WHITE WOMEN.YOUR BRAZILIAN WIFE IS PROBABLY GONNA DISCOURAGE YOU FROM CALLING YOUR SON BLACK AND INSTEAD SHE'S GONNA SUGGEST YOU CALL HIM PARDO,MORENO,MESTICO,OR MULATTO SINCE BRAZILIANS THINK THATS POLITICALLY CORRECT IN BRAZIL CONSIDERING YOURSELF BLACK IS VERY TABOO THATS WHY I LOVE MY AFRICAN AMERICAN BROTHAZ AND SISTAZ CAUSE WE EMBRACE OUR BLACKNESS SOMETHING BLACK BRAZILIANS WOULDNT BE CAUGHT DEAD DOING AND FINDING A BRAZILIAN WHO IS PROUD TO BE BLACK IS ABOUT AS RARE AS A WHITE BOY LIVING IN EASTSIDE SOUTH COMPTON

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:24 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

fernandobn

Junior Member

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Hey Marques What do you think that Brazilian women want to become American Citizen? They come stay for a while and then they go back! As Americans are proud to be Americans we Brazilians are proud to be Brazilians! All the Brazilian women that I know living here in US only one opted to become an American Citizen. Even so, she is always with the Brazilian community.

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Fernando B.

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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 2:25 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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IF THATS ALWAYS THE CASE THEN HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE ALMOST 1 MILLION BRAZILIANS LIVING IN THE U.S HUH

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:34 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

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Adrianerik

Newbie

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My bad. That link didn't work. I forgot to capitalize some letters. It is:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_US/COINTELPRO60s_WAH.html

Those of you older Brazilians will recognize that some of the practices are similar to the period from 1966 to the late 70's in Brazil. (most of my friends in Ilha are lawyers and were students then and lost several friends during that period.) It's interesting. Because another very close friend in Rio is a retired military person....really nice guy....but very solemn when I press him about this period in Brazil.

peace

Marqueseazy - If the FBI wanted to recruit an 'agent provacateur' to continue tactics at divide and conquer they would recruit you.

There are major problems within the African-American community and they are discussed daily on Blackvoices.com, Blackplanet.com, TWBT.com (The Black World Today) and other sites. Some of us have sold our souls to the god of Consumer Capitalism choosing to buy 'things' over helping people and we have deserted our people in the inner cities. And our failure to join our voices in solidarity with those innocent Arabs here who were caught up in the new vicious fascism that this government has unleashed indicates many of us have now become "The White Man". I choose not to discuss these things here because it would divert the focus of this site but they exist.

A question for you. Are you personally involved with any social activist groups in your area? Tutoring our kids? Maybe adopting one? Ending male violence against our women? Encouraging responsible fatherhood?

I would like to hear about them.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:58 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Markysleazy:

“70% BLACK HUH THATS NOT WHAT MY FRIEND SAID WHEN HE WENT TO SAO PAULO HE SAID IT WAS MOSTLY WHITES AND JAPANESE EXPLAIN THAT HUH”

Y’know, you have the god given gift of shooting yourself in your own ass. I mean, here you are, ranting on and on (and on and on...) about how most Brazilians would be Black if they saw themselves the way Americans do. And when I agree with you and say that 70 percent of Brazil is Black, even adding in the explanation “by your standards at least”, you ask me what do I mean.

So tell me Marquey are most Brazilians “really” black or aren’t they? You can’t ahve it both ways...

Re: your friend’s story, this only highlights two things: 1) that you yourself have no first hand info about Brazil and 2) your friend only stayed in the center or business district and wasn’t a very good observer. São Paulo is the biggest NORTHEASTERN city in Brazil. The vast majority of its population is descended from immigrants from that region. By your hypodescendant lights, they are all black as they have far more than “one drop” of African blood in them. In fact, many of those “Japanese” your friend saw (most probably Chinese or Korean in this day and age) are also Black by the same logic. Many, many Asian-Brazilian paulistas are the result of mixed marriages.

“NOW WASHINGTON DC ON THE OTHER HAND IS 80% BLACK ITS WHAT US AFRICAN AMERICANS WOULD CALL A CHOCOLATE CITY.”

Over all, I found D.C. to be about as dark-skinned as Rio. So if D.C. is a “chocolate city”, so is Rio. São Paulo is perhaps a touch less, but also more Indian in comparison.

“I BET THE ONLY REASON THAT GERMAN BRAZILIAN WHITE WOMAN MARRIED YOU WAS SO SHE CAN BECOME AN AMERICAN CITIZEN BECAUSE BRAZILIAN WOMEN WHO COME TO AMERICA DO THAT ALL THE TIME.”

Spoken like a true redneck, Marquey. I’d like to thank you for once again showing that white people don’t have a lock-hold on ignorance and bigotry.

“IF THATS ALWAYS THE CASE THEN HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE ALMOST 1 MILLION BRAZILIANS LIVING IN THE U.S HUH.”

Sorry, again, MarqueyMark, but there are probably not even 1 million Brazilians living overseas, period. The last reputable stat I saw placed their numbers at around 500,000 in the States. The U.S. census counts far less than 100,000. Seeing as how there are around 150,000 Anglo-Americans living in Brazil, the gap isn’t all that wide when one takes into consideration the obvious money making opportunities to be had in the U.S.

Re: your disdain for immigrants, I hear the KKK is looking for volunteers to keep Amuricuh safe from the foreign threat, Marquey. Why don’t you sign up and integrate them?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:10 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Adrianerik,

It’s hardly an obsession to point out historical facts. I think Karenga is a murdering scumbag who killed his own under the direction of the FBI. If you’re uncomfortable with that, fine, but it would probably be more appropriate to talk about your obsession of avoiding the unsavory history of Kwanza’s inventor. While invention can be important to survival, it becomes dangerous when invented fantasy is used to cover up fact.

“I have heard forgiveness asked and forgiveness given. And I’ve seen the community grow stronger because of this open exchange...”

I wonder what Carter and Higgins’ families would have to say about that. But whatever. My point isn’t that kwanza is a bad thing, or even that one can’t separate the message from the messenger. Like I said, if I were you, I’d light all the Kwanza candles I cared to. But I’d also make sure I lit an extra one for the souls of Bunchy and Jon. In spiritual matters, karma sticks.

“I even felt bad just saying COINTELPRO….folks don’t know what the hell I’m (we’re) talking about.”

Oh, but I do. I used to work with Ward Churchill. Ever hear of him?

“On the other hand, I have a small advantage (maybe…I don’t know your history) because I am not some 19 year old who read books about this issue. And what I know comes from a very inside view.”

Either am I, sport. I’m a 36 year old who’s been busted 12 times for peace and justice work in the States. The last time I got worked over by Klan cops in New Orleans for 5 hours. I worked in the squatting movement in D.C. and NYC, was active at Big Mountain back during the ‘80s and was involved in far too many smaller initiatives and actions to go into here. The reason I started reading about this stuff was in order to make sense of WHY the FBI found it necessary to break into my roommate’s car and bug our phone when we were non-violent activists working for legal change. So it’s been a dog’s age since I was a naive 19 year old, cracking books on this subject and even then, my study stemmed from trying to make sense of practical experience, not the other way around.

So take it to the PSN chapter at Temple.

“I just feel that there is a bigger lesson for Brazilians in a thorough analysis of the Black Power Movement than a parochial analysis of Karenga.”

No one here is suggesting that Brazilians undertake such a parochial analysis. What I AM suggesting is that an analysis of Karenga’s past and some of the more unsavory aspects of black nationalism NEEDS to be discussed in Brazil at some point, if only so that we avoid making the same mistakes. Tell the truth, Adrianerik: you were surprised as hell that I even knew who Karenga WAS, let alone what he did. You were all set to pass him off as the unambiguously cool, afro-crunchy father of kwanza ‘til I had the bad form to bring up his unsavory past. And it occurs to me that in all the conferences I’ve attended here on race issues, I’ve never seen ONE black American activist like yourself bring up the problematic parts of the black nationalist past when talking to Brazilians. Brazilian activists are curious about what happened in the States in the ‘60s and you guys are in a great position to teach about this history, which I think we can both agree is important and vital. But it’s always the ol’ ofay here who ends up teaching classes on the Panthers ‘cause you folks seem to feel that it’s much more important to talk about stuff like kwanza. So the REAL knowledge that you guys have and that you could pass along far more effectively than I always seems to end up on the cutting room floor.

Perhaps this is because you folks have an ideology to sell and looking into this stuff is unpleasant and embarrassing? Ah, but if you want to escape the charge of imperialist proselytizer, Adrian, and really make use of your long experience, THIS is the kind of stuff you need to talk about, too. I can probably GET funding for you to come here and teach for a semester if you’d be interested in doing a class with me on something like this. Then you can tear me a new asshole ao vivo e em cores. ;-)

“I have met too many ‘gringos’ in Brazil who revise American history to suit their own purposes before a captivated but ignorant Brazilian audience...”

EXACTLY what I am talking about. Do you think Angela Gilliam, Francis Windance Twine, or Mike Hanchard mention this stuff in conferences down here? HELL NO!

“I have a very big issue with deviating on threads in which the lack of context causes more confusion than clarification.”

Having seen your performance here and your obvious intelligence, I really doubt that that’s your problem. I think you have an issue of orchestrating discussions so that they cause the political effect you desire. When they threaten to escape your control or show up some of the more problematic holes in your philosophy, well, that’s when your problems with “confusion” start.

“And it is Brazilians who, for lack of resources or sometimes lack of caring, who do not verify these things for themselves.”

Do you realize how patronizing your description of Brazilians sounds? Hell, if I were to say some of the things you said here, I’d be called a racist and rightly so! Whether or not the average Brazilian student has access to the same amount of information as you do, she is no less intelligent or perceptive. I don’t think her mind needs to be treated with kid gloves or that history needs to be “spun” so that she gets the “proper” take on it. I think one can give her one’s version of the facts and let her decide for herself what’s true or not.

That said, the scene you describe doesn’t sound that unfamiliar to me. I wonder, however, how you were able to judge this “awe” that the girl in question was showing, as well as its supposed source, your American friend’s blond hair and blue eyes. Seeing as how I do have blue eyes and what passes for blond hair down here, inspiring this sort of awe in Brazilians would be a rather useful trick for me to learn. So far, my hair and eye color have gotten me nowhere in convincing people of the rightness of my opinions. I think you may have mistaken your Brazilian friend’s cultural tendency to take the side of people who are dear to her for racist indoctrination. As I’ve mentioned before, real family and friends are more important to most Brazilians than theoretical cries to peoplehood. So when loved ones say bullshit, sometimes folks here have the unfortunate tendency to nod their heads in agreement.

“The oppression of a people is multi-layered.”

No doubt. As Stuart Hall points out, however, these axis’s of oppression don’t line up pointing in the same neat way. As a working class white guy, I’m oppressed in class terms, but in racial terms, I have privilege. As an American Black man, presumably professional, you confront racial oppression but benefit from imperial privilege as compared to a Black Brazilian.

No one here has complained against cultural nationalist initiatives to improve the self-esteem of Black people. (Your channeling tendency is showing itself here again, BTW, as you fight against an opinion you WISH I held in order to avoid dealing with my clearly expressed opinion, which seems to cause you discomfort.) What I have said is that many self-image building projects on display in Salvador have been absorbed by the media in such a way that they end up REINFORCING stereotypes and IMPEDING other, smaller and perhaps more practical initiatives elsewhere. I am suggesting that without a wider view of things and CONCRETE LINKAGES into attempts to address power and wealth disparities, imageering will very likely create a Beneton world, where black faces beam down from billboards on stark black poverty below. I am suggesting that the creation of an Afro-Brazilian Disneyland in Salvador might not be the best way to tackle our country’s race problems. Unfortunately, such a project is highly lucrative and so it will likely continue.

Great example: the Governor of Salvador, one of the most corrupt men in Bahia, has levered his vote farming into a ministerial position in Lula’s government. But, hey! I bet Ilé Aye’s Carnaval show this year will be really uplifting to the Black spirit. It should be, given the cash the state government spends to make sure the voters stay happy with circuses, seeing as how there’s no bread to go around.

In short, I wish internationals would spend a little less time partying in Salvador and a little more time learning our constitution, history and political system – not to mention our language. This is hardly “disrespectful” of any community’s way of doing things down here.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:10 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Like I said the issues are a bit deeper than that. I'll leave it at that.

I didn't need to 'look into it'.

I was in charge of one of the groups. I carried a .22 I needed it and would have used it. It was dangerous times and we really didn't know what we were doing.

The chaos of that time is an open book. If anything I would consider this community (African-American) as self-critical, if not more, than many others. Marqueseazy is the exception....not the norm when it comes to the African-Americans critique of themselve.

No....you didn't surprise me. You raised suspicions. Because Karenga has been a smokescreen used by the right wing conservatives....Tony Snow the most recent...to justify a completly imbalanced attack on the events of that time.

And Karenga is used by my dear Socialist friends whose romanticism of the Panthers makes them teary-eyed.

There were NO gods.

The Back to Africa phase of the Black Nationalist Movement did introduce a level of sexism and chauvinism (black man is god ideology) that caused one of my dear friends (tricked into a polygamous yin-yang marriage) to lose her mind.

The literary portion that gave rise to Nikki Giovanni, Sonia Sanchez, Larry Neal, Don L. Lee and others, literally saved the lives of young black college students...the first of their families to go to college...alone on recently integrated all-white campuses it gave an insulating bubble of self-esteem to these students. gave birth to the development of the National Association of Black Journalists and gave feminist affirmation to a major component of these struggles.

The Panthers introduced the concept of non-racial solidarity on a world-wide level and the manipulations of economics on a world-wide scale.

They also introduced the art of 'revolutionary' extortion. The defining and attacking of legitimate black businesses because these young kids had decided that they were bloodsucking the people. The eventual degeneration of this into virtual low-level armed robbery.

Add to this milieu that the economic arm of the Black Nationalist movement stressed the creation of black businesses and you have a gang war that produced many more bodies than those of California.

There are not enough candles....

But you are the one who mentioned Kwanzaa and you mentioned Karenga. Not I. They, nor the Panthers, figure into anything that I've seen in Brazil, except as a footnote.

So it goes.........

There are books enough about this period. A friend of mine, Dr V.P. Franklin (teaches at Drexel University) has a good one on this time on The Black Power Movement.

I did allow a generalization to slip through. Mea culpa. However, nothing in the sentence mentioned the "capacity" of Brazilians to know this period. So don't introduce it. I don't roll with those types of statements. You've never heard me make them. But, from personal experience, I have refuted enough mis-information from Brazilians that they 'heard' from someone else.

Okay....gotta go.

Peace

ps - I don't drink and neither do most of my friends. (nothing religious....just the way it is). I think I've been to the beach once in three years in Salvador. Hate the clubs....maybe will go to an occasional concert.

I generally try to ignore your snipes. But you really need to get off of this partying in Salvador kick.

Unless you are up in Liberdade seeing the community involvement of Ile Aye against illiteracy, aiding in the development of small business enterprises, in trying to upgrade the quality of education of the piss-poor schools they have there then you should get off of this Nordestino bigotry trip.

There is a group of 120 hard workers. Only two are paid. The others are volunteers. They have no money to keep the phone working. So they tie a mobile phone to a string and share it among them (between the floors of the building).

And they are there....day in an day out for these busted young kids and girls. 24/7. 365 days a year.

I 'party' more in Rio than anywhere else.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:44 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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@Macunaima - I've never heard of Angela Gilliam. But I did hear of Hanchard. He's from here. I'm curious about his presentation there.

There is a romanticism going on now about the Black Power period. On both sides. Even a small back-to-africa component. As well as the New Black Panther Party.

I am wary of academic conferences. I was supposed to attend the International conference on AIDs that was held in Rio last August. But I arrived too late. There tends to be bit more intensity to conferences when the topic is unambiguous, real and to the gut then those that might lead to pontificating.

okay....really gotta go

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:11 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

Iverson

Newbie

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Macunaima , you are hater , to talk like this about Kawanzaa , is insult to every black person , i just can`t get how you speak about black culture , when you are not black even , racism in brazil is real you are acting as brazilians can`t be racist , when i see racist brazilian on you , who insulting every thing black including kawanzaa.

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Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 8:38 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Hey Adrian,

If I was around and active back during those times, I would have walked around armed, too. From what I've heard and read and based on my own experiences in the (admittedly much less hyper) '80s, things were getting very out of hand.

Still... It doesn't take much in the way of character or pure human common sense to realize that killing the people who agree with you but who are a challenge to your leadership is a bad way to run a movement. That the FBI was jerking everybody around, I can understand. That mistakes were made, I can understand. But execution style slayings of the political opposition... Well, let's just say that I feel that to order that kind of thing takes a character flaw of a very personal nature, FBI involvement or no.

Re: your critique of MarqueyMarque. Rest assured that I do not consider him typical in any way. I only point out to you some of the odd fellow travellers who are gathered together under your banner. When I was in Earth First, I was shocked to discover that a small but vocal minority of our comrades were, well to put it bluntly, racists and fascists. Ignoring people like that doesn't help make them go away. After I looked at a lot of what we were saying, I was able to understand how that stuff, in the right light, could appeal to nazis. So the folks whom I consider to be the responsible faction of Earth First rearranged their rhettoric. They lost a lot of redneck support, but hey: them's the breaks.

Re: the Panthers. I'm not an unquestioning fan of them, either. There were plenty of what Brazilians would call "marginais" in their ranks. Nor would I suggest that whatever good came out of that epoch be dumped down the toilet because of certain peoples' fascination with urban guerilla warfare and macho posturing. However, I think those things need to be met straight on and the record set clear. THAT'S the way to nail this world's Tony Snows.

"The literary portion that gave rise to Nikki Giovanni, Sonia Sanchez, Larry Neal, Don L. Lee and others, literally saved the lives of young black college students...the first of their families to go to college...alone on recently integrated all-white campuses it gave an insulating bubble of self-esteem to these students."

Nobody is denying that it did. But look at how you yourself schedule events: real change (i.e. school desegregation) made effective through the cultural support that followed. What I'm concerned with is the fact that we're getting all frosting and no cake, here. We get Afro-Reggae t-shirts, mas poder que é bom, ninguem quer dividir. We get to dance to african rythyms at Carnaval, but do we see more funds being put into schools in the favelas? Hell no!

"There are not enough candles.... "

One would do, as long as it were consistently lit.

"They, nor the Panthers, figure into anything that I've seen in Brazil, except as a footnote."

Actually, interestingly enough, Carlos Marigelha's Manual da Guerrilha Urbana inspired many of the Panther's methods. So while they don't figure into much of what occured in Brazil, the Brazilian left had a very concrete influence on them.

" I generally try to ignore your snipes. But you really need to get off of this partying in Salvador kick."

You're right. Sorry for the snipe. You didn't deserve it.

Look, nobody I know in the Black movement in Rio is all that impressed with what's happening Salvador, for all that that city seems to attract 90 percent of the internationals' attention. And while you, personally, may not be much of a party guy, it does strike me - and almost everyone I've talked to - that most of the internationals we meet are attracted to the, shall we say, more spectacular phenomena generated by Brazil's anti-racist movements. I'd like to see a little more critique of why, exactly, the most ostentatiously black conscious state is in the hand of the most entrenched white plutocracy. I mean, doesn't that strike you as a contradiction? I'd like to see a little more stick-to-itness over the long haul, a more permanent enagement with the Brazilian polis on a number of levels.

Just once, I'd like to see a Black nationalist lawyer or sociologist take a couple years out of his life and dedicate himself to going through our mass of affirmative action and anti-racist laws in order to make sense of what the possibilities may exist for action. Frex, in the whole debate on affirmative action here, not once did a black american activist scholar ever even define for a Brazilian audience what affirmative action really was, despite the presence of dozens of these intellectuals during the debate. So we're now lost in this surreal warren of quota debates, as if this were the sum total of affirmative action. It's been an uphill struggle over the last two years to even get people to recognize that affirmative action and quotas are not necessarily the same thing. Meanwhile, the federal government led the entire black movement down an alleyway and mugged it. Now we have quotas. Whoopee. Come to find out that even with quotas, not a single person entered into carioca universities who wouldn't have gotten in under the old system. We have just suffered a crushing political defeat, but I suspect it's going to take some time for the reality of it all to sink in to some folk's heads.

And while all this was going on, where were the American Black Brazilianists who, more than anyone else, could have given Brazilian activists the benefit of their experience with similar issues in the States? Pushing for quotas and calling anyone who wasn't a racist! They could have talked about university admissions boards, about junking the vestibular system for an admissions system that, like the U.S. system, looks at grades AND other factors. They could've talked about bringing the community into admissions boards. All these things have been tried with varying degrees of success in the States and many of these self-same black american activists actually SIT on the affirmative action boards of their respective schools. But was there any exchange of ideas? Not as far as I can see. It got to the point where Angela Gilliam accused Peter Fry and Livio Sansone, two gentlemen who, while white, have probably done more than any two other Brazilian academics to place black students in the university, of being "the gate keepers of white priviledge".

"Unless you are up in Liberdade seeing the community involvement of Ile Aye against illiteracy, aiding in the development of small business enterprises, in trying to upgrade the quality of education of the piss-poor schools they have there then you should get off of this Nordestino bigotry trip."

Great stuff. So do you think they'll be working to kick ACM's fat ass out of the government anytime soon? Or do his tentacles reach down into the grass roots social groups as well? Has anyone even attempted to ask this question, I wonder? It's of great interest to people down here in Rio.

A call for self-critique is not bigotry. It would be bigotry if I were accusing the NE groups of wasting time and of not doing any substantial work. That has not been my point. My point is that the entire country needs to work harder on translating mobilization into real power and not just carnaval floats and media coverage. Salvador, because they have been at the forefront of the mediated black cultural scene, needs to engage in this kind of self-criticism a little bit more urgently than the rest of Brazil.

Sorry I've been obnoxious of late. It's hot, I'm sick, and I'm chained to this damned computer until I get these final translations done for the Museu Goeldi and the Smithsonian. I've been at this shit for weeks now and I really, REALLY need to get out of the house and do some of that beach bumming I accused you guys of doing. ;-)

An unrelated question: what do you think of Cynthis Mcwhorter's "Carry Me Home"? I just received a copy for review and I'm finding it to be a fascinating book on the Civil Rights Movement.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:49 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Iverson, what is so hateful about pointing out that Kwanza is an invented tradition that's American, not African?

As for its inventor, I don't like him, as you've probably guessed by now.

However, everything I've said has been cautiously SUPPORTIVE of Kwanza. I mean, if black folks think the need an ethnic boundary marker at the holiday season, cool. Just, as I said, don't try to tell me that it's some milenial African tradition.

So let me understand this: NOT hating translates into lying about what Kwanza is and turning a blind eye to what it's inventor did?

I don't get it. Enlighten me.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:53 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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To put Hanchard and Gilliam in the same boat is a bit unfair as Hanchard is intellectually a hell of a lot more honest than Gilliam. But the whole Hanchard/Fry debate was taken up by Gilliam in a really unfair way. And people sometimes forget that Hanchard himself is a relative neophyte when it comes to race in Brazil. I have an article I wrote about this whole debate that I'd be happy to pass along to you for your critique if you feel you have the time to lok it over.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:57 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Absolutely! Send it to Adrianerik@aol.com

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:34 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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70% OF BRAZIL AINT BLACK ITS 45% I HAVE SEEN IT ON THE CENSUS BUT IT ALSO SAIS ON THE CENSUS THAT ONLY 6% OF THAT 45% CONSIDER THEMSELVES BLACK SO IF YOU CONSIDER ONLY THE BRAZILIANS WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE BLACK THEN BRAZIL HAS ONE OF THE SMALLEST POPULATION OF BLACKS OUT THERE.THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WASHINGTON DC AND RIO IS THAT IN DC BLACKS DONT HAVE AN IDENTITY CRISIS AND THEY ALL KNOW THEY ARE BLACK BUT YOU CANT SAY THE SAME FOR THANG FOR RIO CAUSE EVERY BLACK CARIOCA THERE WILL BE CLAIMING SOMETHING ELSE.AMERICANS IN GENERAL WHETHER BLACK WHITE,OR HISPANIC WILL NEVER PRACTICE THIS MULATTO BULLSHIT THAT YALL BRAZILIANS PRACTICE.LIKE I SAID EVEN THE LIGHTIEST SKINNED AFRICAN AMERICANS STILL CONSIDER THEMSLEVES AS BEING BLACK LIKE FOR EXAMPLE HALLE BERRY,BOB MARLEY,PRINCE,MARIO VAN PEEBLES,VANESSA L. WILLIAMS,LISA BONET ARE ALL MIXED BUT YOU DONT SEE THEM IDENTIFY AS MULLATTOES CAUSE THEY ARE BLACK JUST LIKE ME MY FATHER IS WHITE BUT MY MOM WHO IS AFRICAN AMERICAN TAUGHT ME TO IDENTIFY AS BLACK AND I AM PROUD TO SAY I DO.I BET NOT A SINGLE CAST MEMBER FROM THE MOVIE CIDADE DE DEUS CONSIDERS THEMSELVES BLACK SO CIDADE DE DEUS IS NOT CONSIDERED A BLACK MOVIE ITS CONSIDERED A MULATTO MOVIE BRAZIL WILL NEVER HAVE A PRO BLACK MOVIE LIKE MALCOLM X,DO THE RIGHT THANG,AND GET ON THE BUS JUST TO NAME A FEW.BRAZIL WILL NEVER HAVE BLACK LEADERS WITH A VOZ ATIVA LIKE A SPIKE LEE,A MALCOLM X,A MARTIN LUTHER KING JR,A JESSE JACKSON,A JOHN SINGLETON,A 2PAC SHAKUR,OR A LOUIS FARAKKAN,OR A NELSON MANDELA,OR A BISCHOP TUTU.WHERE IS THE BRAZILIAN VERSION OF THE NAACP HUH?OUT OF ALL OF THE GREAT BLACK LEADERS OF THE WORLD NON OF THEM WERE BRAZILIANS EXPLAIN THAT HUH BRAZIL AFROCENTRIC MY ASS IT NEVER HAS BEEN AND IT NEVER WILL BE AMERICA,CUBA,JAMAICA,HAITI,TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO,THE BAHAMAS,THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC,PANAMA,BARBADOS,SOUTH AFRICA,NIGERIA,ANGOLA,SENEGAL,AND MANY OTHERS ARE WAY MORE AFROCENTRICS THEN BRAZIL AND THEY WOULD PUT BRAZIL TO SHAME WHEN IT COMES TO AFROCENTRICS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM AND BRAZIL IS THAT IN THOSE COUNTRIES THEY ACTUALLY CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE BLACK UNLIKE BRAZIL.BRAZIL IS THE FIRST AND ONLY MULATTO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD SO THATS THE ONLY THANG THAT MAKES BRAZIL STAND OUT FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD.SALVADOR IS NOT THE BLACK ROME ITS THE MULATTO ROME AND THAT BAND CALLED CIDADE NEGRA SHOULD BE CALLED CIDADE MULATTA LOL

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:54 pm on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

Guest

Anonymous

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Ah, Marqueseasy,

if you didn't exist someone would have to invent you.

Keep typing. Don''t give up. You are a delight.

Your fan

A mulatto Brazilian on the sideline

(Edited by Guest at 1:38 pm on Feb. 7, 2003)

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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 1:37 pm on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

Estudante de Ingles

Newbie

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Marqueseasy for president of Brazil !

At this Carnival, let's give him the key of the Rio de Janeiro City. Are you fat, Marquês Easy?

A hero of this forum. A man with a strong opinion. I respect you, Marquês Easy!

God bless you. And God is brazilian.

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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

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Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 1:46 pm on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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YEAH SURE GOD IS BRAZILIAN AND BILL CLINTON IS NIGERIAN LOL

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:57 pm on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP

Estudante de Ingles

Newbie

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Really? I did'nt know that...

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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

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Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 6:21 pm on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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YUP AND BRAD PITT IS MEXICAN AND MICHAEL JORDAN IS RUSSIAN

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:31 pm on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP

Estudante de Ingles

Newbie

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living and learning...

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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

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Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 7:22 pm on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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HERE'S SOMETHING ELSE YOU SHOULD KNOW MIKE TYSON IS KOREAN AND JULIA ROBERTS IS FROM THE REPUBLIC OF CONGO LOL

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:09 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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And you are from fucking Mars, Marquesleazy.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:10 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP

Estudante de Ingles

Newbie

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Caro Professor Macu:

Não obstante os atritos passados, espero em Deus que o rancor não seja uma de suas qualidades. E sabendo do seu perfeito domínio da Última Flor do Lácio, inculta e bela, como bom estudante de inglês, imploro-te alguns esclarecimentos ( isto serve para qualquer outro esgrimista do inglês ):

fucking mars significa que o deus Marte era um grande fodedor, que comia todas as Deusas do Olimpo.

fucking mars significa que o deus Marte era um famoso pederasta entre as divindades gregas

fucking mars significa que o planeta Marte é um lugar muito esquisito, onde ninguém é de ninguém, e de lá veio, além do bonequinho verde da Veja, um outro bonequinho chamado Marquês Easy, a man with a strong opinion.

Aguardo resposta.

(Edited by Estudante de Ingles at 3:45 pm on Feb. 10, 2003)

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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

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Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 6:01 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP

Estudante de Ingles

Newbie

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Let's try to understand Portuguese, gente fina.

It's impossible underStand Brazil without Portuguese.

Os milagres são efeitos especiais de Deus

A. Jabor

Eu estava com medo de não gostar de "Deus é brasileiro". Pensava: "Esse

filme-fábula, 'de estrada', mostrando paisagens e povoados brasileiros, em

meio a este mundo pós-pós , sob o ritmo delirante das grandes produções

americanas de ação e porrada, sei não, esse filme pode estar na contramão,

fora de época...".

Também, como vários filmes brasileiros ótimos ("Cidade de Deus", "Edifício

Master", "Madame Satã" denunciaram fortemente nossas anomalias, narrados

com a fúria de "mise-en-scènes" vertiginosas, pensei que o filme de Cacá

talvez ficasse "leve demais".

Aí, fui ver o filme e, além de gostar, tive vontade de chorar e percebi: eu

estava com uma bruta saudade do Brasil e não sabia. "Deus é brasileiro" não

denuncia nada, não reclama de nada; apenas mostra a grande riqueza de nossa

pobreza, a discreta poesia de nossas precariedades, a beleza humana de

"contradições" e atrasos que o progresso "moderno" condena como

"inferiores".

Há muitas maneiras de se amar um país. Alguns amam seus países com febre e

orgulho, com arrogância bélica, com arrancos sanguíneos de patriotas. Mas

há uma maneira de amar o Brasil que é mais frugal, mais carinhosa,

sossegada, mesmo na contemplação de nossos defeitos, compreendendo a

poética do atraso, como só grandes escritores, músicos e cineastas sacam,

como Guimarães Rosa, que recusou generalizações políticas e descobriu a

psicologia dos campos gerais e de seus "miguilins", como Tom Jobim entre

passarinhos e florestas e, no cinema, Cacá Diegues, que sempre amou a

pátria não como mãe, mas como filha, tão humilde, tão pobrezinha, tão

desamparada... Por isso, vi o filme e percebi que estava morrendo de

saudade do Brasil, saudade das beiras de rio, das canoas furadas, dos azuis

de anil tosco, dos rosas desmaiados nas fachadas das casinhas, das músicas

toscas, da linguagem errada dos falantes, da paisagem como personagem. E,

mais ainda, estava com saudade do ritmo brasileiro de narrar, saudade do

"era uma vez", do "então", do "aí", do ritmo narrativo que flui da lentidão

da cultura sem alfabeto, das estradas sem condução, do ritmo que não

obedece às leis do espetáculo mercantil. "Deus é brasileiro" tem o canto de

um "causo" contado, tem as hesitações do papeador da vendinha da beira da

estrada. Aí reside sua beleza.

O ritmo americano que tomou o mundo, no cinema e no cotidiano, quer nos

dominar tanto quanto as bombas de Bush, nosso Hitler globalizado. Trata-se

de um ritmo paranóico e ansioso que não deixa buraco para nenhuma reflexão,

nenhum vazio, pois no vazio pode entrar a liberdade e a discordância. É

preciso que nada pare, que ninguém se livre da enxurrada das receitas e

certezas que nos empurram: a otimização, a eficiência, a rapidez dos fluxos

de capital. Esse ritmo não invade apenas os bancos e o mercado. Invade

nosso tempo para amar, para ler, para não fazer nada. O tempo nos é imposto

como uma obrigação produtiva. O ritmo é a mensagem. "Deus é brasileiro" nos

devolve o tempo que nos roubaram.

O conjunto dos atores também emociona. Temos Antônio Fagundes, o prodigioso

suporte para qualquer personagem, temos a participação de lendas vivas do

Cinema Novo, como o grande Hugo Carvana, inventor de um estilo, como

Castrinho, filho da chanchada e do teatro de revista, como o Stepan

Nercessian, outro inventor de tipos brasileiros. E temos os jovens atores

como os malazartianos Wagner Moura e Bruce Gomlevski, iluminados pela

beleza de Paloma Duarte e da inteligência que faísca em seus olhos.

Finalmente, apesar da sabotagem de oportunistas e/ou ignorantes radicais da

esquerda burra ou de provocações de jornalistas militantes imaginários, o

filme tem um parentesco com o tempo de esperanca que começa com o governo

Lula, que, depois de oito anos de oposição albanesa ou coreana, parece ter

entendido que a adesão às causas do Brasil pode ser feita não através de

vinganças, rupturas e ressentimentos - mas de integração e tolerância. A

expressão "paz e amor" é muito mais profunda que um slogan de campanha.

Creio que o PT compreendeu que o país precisa de um olhar de amor, de paz,

para reencontrar nosso ritmo, nossos rostos, nossa cultura. Lula e o PT

parecem ter entendido que, com nossa tradição autocrática e oligárquica, o

regime mais revolucionário no Brasil é a democracia. Ela, por si só,

ajudará a corroer nossa tradições corruptas, injustas e arrogantes, pois

democracia é o amor à diferença. E o filme de Cacá é premonitório, pois nos

fala da tolerância para nossas imperfeições, fala que o verdadeiro milagre

brasileiro não é feito de mercados a pleno vapor, mas que milagre de

verdade é a sobrevivência cultural desse povo, debaixo de 400 anos de

exploradores.

E apesar de falar do tosco, o filme é de rara qualidade tecnológica:

Super-35mm, som dolby digital incrível, computação nas trucagens perfeitas,

mas tudo a serviço de uma poética brasileira. Surgem efeitos especiais

tropicais - não são foguetes espaciais que se chocam, nem homens-aranha

voando, nem supermetralhadoras fálicas, mas toda a técnica moderna criando

o milagre dos peixes, das flores, das cachoeiras, de Paloma flutuando nas

ruas.

O cinema, desde sua invenção, sempre foi uma busca de milagre, tentando

apreender o mistério do real no nitrato de prata. "Deus é brasileiro" nos

mostra que somos um milagre. E os milagres são os efeitos especiais de Deus.

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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

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Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 6:12 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP

Pedro

Newbie

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Jabor é o comuna-festivo mais lírico do Brasil. Ele arruma suas fantasias de um jeito tão bonitinho que até fico com pena de desmanchar... mas vamos ao trabalho!

"sob o ritmo delirante das grandes produções americanas de ação e porrada"

"Trata-se de um ritmo paranóico e ansioso que não deixa buraco para nenhuma reflexão, nenhum vazio"

O cinema americano é assim porque, ao contrário do brasileiro, ele é orientado ao mercado. Aliás, é justamente por este prosaico motivo que os produtores americanos tem dinheiro para fazer seus filmes, e os brasileiros não tem. No dia em que resolvermos fazer filmes mais comerciais, ao invés daquela lenga-lenga de querer mostrar que bandidos e terroristas são heróis oprimidos, as bilheterias com certeza vão melhorar, haverá mais financiamento e boas idéias poderão sair da gaveta.

"O ritmo americano que tomou o mundo, no cinema e no cotidiano, quer nos dominar tanto quanto as bombas de Bush, nosso Hitler globalizado..."

Porra meu! Que viagem. Bush está mais para sherife de cidadezinha do que para Hitler.

"É preciso que nada pare, que ninguém se livre da enxurrada das receitas e certezas que nos empurram: a otimização, a eficiência, a rapidez dos fluxos de capital"

E isto é mal? Querer ser eficiente e progredir é mal?

"Lula e o PT parecem ter entendido que, com nossa tradição utocrática e oligárquica, o regime mais revolucionário no Brasil é a democracia"

Corrupção não tem a ver com regime político, e no nosso caso, a democracia até ganhou da ditadura em termos de roubalheira. Essa ingenuidade deriva da crença de que só os ricos é que são corruptos, e o povão é bonzinho e inocente... quem foi mesmo que inventou o jeitinho?

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Total Posts: 17 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:38 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Estudante:

Nesye caso, a palavra "fucking" está sendo usado como o bom e velho adjetivo universal. ;-)

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:02 pm on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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Jabor um comuna? Em que mundo? Ele pode ter enchido o saco de ouvir abobrinha dos seus companheiros do "Manhatan Connection" e ter se tornado azedo em relação aos E.U.A., mas Jabor é tão comuna quanto Jarbas Passarinho.

De fato, filmes americanos são muito "pipoca", raramente sai alguma coisa que mereça o tempo a eles destinado.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:22 pm on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Ahn, a cinema america é uma bosta.

Fora, é claro, a obra dos Irmãos Coen, Woody Allen, Ridley Scott...

Peraí, tem um monte de americanos que são bom de cinema! Será que a gente 'tá reagindo ao fato que eles tem uma indústria cinematográfica que é tão grande e tão rica que poem produzir toneladas de besteirol ALÉM de filmes bons...?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:38 am on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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Não, a reação é ao fato de que nossos circuitos de cinema quase que só passam besteirol americano. Tudo bem que eu ficaria mais irritado se tivesse que assistir filmes indianos, mas ainda assim o cinema americano deixa muito a desejar em relação ao europeu ou ao iraniano.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:12 am on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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Ze you generalize the 'American Film Industry'.

For each 1 film that those who control Brazilian media allows into Brazil through their cousins....the 40 to 50 jerks who 'control' American media there are hundreds of great movies that have limited showing or are shown through the independent film festival circuit.

So, how do you define the American Movie Industry?

For us....the works of the mass multitudes of independent filmmakers and small studios are American Cinema. And so far the exchange of creativity in the mass cinema between the countries has been purely on a profit basis (the big blockbusters). There is a big enough market here for some of the smaller budget films to survive but I doubt that you would ever see them in Brazil. Perhaps. I don't know if your cable stations get the Bravo or Sundance channels.

I don't watch much TV.

The cinema images Brazilians receive are as much manipulated and filtered by the media gatekeepers as are the images received of Brazil by the American public.

Peace

ps - I love Iranian cinematography but their stories tend to be cutesy folksy allegories. Like an Iranian LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRE.

And when you say Europe do you MEAN all of Europe or are you making a distinction between the works coming out of England and that of France and that of Germany and the emerging cinema from the other countries.

They are very different and range from the mediocre to the superb.

(I know that this is all a matter of personal preference but just wanted you to expand your explantations a bit). There are many American movies that I've seen where 'pipoca' is the last thing on my mind.

Sorry - Estudante - I read Portuguese much better than I write it.

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:26 am on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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@Macunaima - I didn't mean to blow you off on an earlier post about the course.

It's just that I am a big critic of folks who assume a level of authority above their background and don't want to be a hypocrite about that.

One of the biggest problems in post-colonial nations are academicians trained as....let us say....philosophers...also feeling that they should be project managers of the Water department....or some other area.

My academic background is electrical engineering, with Masters in Computer Science and MBA. My other experience comes from involvement as Coordinator of Communications and Cultural Coordinator with several groups in Philadelphia a few years before the Mumia Abu Jamal incident.

It was an area that required one to keep abreast of everyone else's move in order to counter it or respond to it. In a way it also helped to foster a respect for the other side's opinions. When I look at let us say....the Press Secretary for Clinton or Bush I know their difficulty because in order to lie they need the know the truth.

Don't know if I want to get into the money thing but have no problem freely assisting in an outline of that period, from what I know....not as an academic authority.

Also might be possible for someone from Brazil to deliver a paper and/or particpate in a panel discussion at any one of the October or March conferences.

Would like to sit in on one of the classes at your school.

Peace

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:23 am on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Hey, I don't want to be a manager, far from it. I'd rather just philosophize away all day long. Unfortunately, the university has been and still is Brazil's primary social testing ground so I'm involved in this whether I like it or not. Happily, race, ethnic studies and nationalism are right up my alleyway as that's what I specialize in, so...

It's the monumental bad faith that's being demonstrated on all sides of the "racism in Brazil" debate that appalls me the most. There's hardly any historical perspective being shown. People just take their rhetorical ball and run with it. Oddly enough, in this debate I'm one of the few people who CAN open my mouth. Many of my black colleagues are against quotas but won't say anything as it might jepordize their alreadyuncertain positions in academia. Many of my white colleagues won't say anything for fear of being called a racist. I, however, have no position that I can really lose, so I'm in the enviable position of being able to call them like I see them. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that history will bear me out on the fact that quotas are a tremendous tarbaby, so I'm not too worried about being outspoken on this issue.

One thing that's struck me is the MAJOR difference that one sees between the Movement's public rhetoric around quotas and what members say over beers at night. Everyone is out there on the battle lines screaming, but in private most people I've talked to agree that quotas are simply a shuck, a piss-poor idea that will be next to impossible to effectively implement. Why are they wasting their breath on the issue, then? Simple: it gives folks a great public stage from which to denounce racism. In that sense, I welcome the battle over quotas and hope it leads to better things.

What really annoys me, however, are certain self-annointed movement leaders who come to our school and trash on black students who speak out against quotas. Every seminar and public debate we've had on this issue has seen some semi-professional militant call certain non-quota supporting black students "brainwashed" simply because these kids have tried to tell them what the score was based on their own personal experience. As one of my black colleagues, Ana Maria, puts it: "I had to bust my ass to get in here and I did it because I was GOOD. Now, with the quota law, everyone will say it was because I was black, as if I needed one more reason for employers to discriminate against me. And to add injury to the insult, the quotas aren't even bringing in appreciably more black students. So at the end of the day, my being at IFCS, which was once seen as 'a victory against the odds' will now be transformed into the fruit of a political gimme."

As for you coming down here, it would be great for students to talk to someone who actually went through the black nationalist movement in its armed propaganda stage. I'll keep my eye open for opportunities. Maybe during black history month in November some year...

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:10 pm on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

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Oh.....I wasn't refering to you.

I'll be living in Salvador (quiet.....say not a word against them) for the next 1 year at least. Maybe two if my dear president gets too trigger-happy.

With the advent of the digital video camera and computers with video editing any individual with decent skills can give the big media boys a run for their money.

Anybody with a computer could stream video to others and become their own production company. (Brazil does have a bandwidth problem though).

So....might try to turn a few of these future leaders of Brazil into filmmakers.

We'll see.........

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:16 pm on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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So let me specify then, I don't like the comercial movies that arrive here. As to the european movies that arrive here, they are so rare that I won't bother to discern their nationalities.

If you call the american movie industry the mass number of independent films, then I confess that I'm ignorant...

... and a little bit skeptical to.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:23 pm on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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cool. If all goes well, I may be up there in August as I'm apllying to attend a racism workshop being hosted by UFBA. Seeing as how the scholarships are going on an affirmative action basis, however, I'll probably be last in line for cash. Still, some white people always get picked and if I don't toss my hat into the ring, I'm only guaranteed to not get the money.

You might check into this course. It's a month long and all the major lights in Brazilian race and ethnic studies will be giving lectures. The idea is to inform students of basic issues in race and ethnicity in Brazil from as wide a range of academic backgrounds as possible.

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:27 am on Feb. 12, 2003 | IP

Adrianerik

Newbie

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@Ze - my definition of anything is the populist definiiton.

I actually agree with you on a particular level of comparisons. And so do many Americans as they slowly begin to avoid the junk coming out of Hollywood and search for things of more substance.

It's easy to prove. Just log onto the Sundance site or the Toronto film festivals site or the Philadelphia Festival of World Cinema's site and many others and determine how many of the 'American' films are of the special effects-action movies genre (type) and how many have great stories, great characters and delve into unexplored areas of the human emotion.

I try not to reward the rich and powerful as being representative of the people(or representative of the industry) just because they are rich and powerful and have the money to release movies in 3000 theatres at a time while the independents and small studios have to rely on perhaps 5 theatres total at a time.

Even in music for every hip-hop garbage on the radio there are perhaps five (I'm guessing the number) hip-hop artists who are underground who do NOT sell their souls to the record industries and are actually in cultural war with those artists who think that violence and anti-woman lyrics are necessary. (thought I'd throw that in)

But their days are numbered. Eventually the lack of a good story....the lack of credible characters causes their house of cards to fall upon itself. There is only but so many ways that you can film a car chase, explode a building or blow up a boat.

These fat cats destroyed the gun-slinging cowboy movies. They destroyed the horror movie. They are destroying the space ship movies. They are running out of the "cute no-acting young white kids in danger" scenarios or the "cute no-acting young whites kids having sex scenarios".

And now they are coming to the Independents. Looking for ideas.

The problem is that while the American public is slowly turning against this crap they know that the world is still into this "Americana trash" and they dump it into the Caribbean, Mexico, even the Middle East.

The same as how another group here claims to fight against cancer by changing their cigarettes while they push the worst of these cancer sticks in Asia and Europe.

Okay....I'm ranting. Haven't had my breakfast. (you see why Gringos need to eat breakfast.........)

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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:57 am on Feb. 12, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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You forgot one essential thing on your logic, memory is short...

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:43 pm on Feb. 12, 2003 | IP

mooseboy84

Newbie

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you know, i always love when intellectuals and "learned" men can bend over backwords at every chance to attack black people and black culture. in america or otherwise.

constructive criticism is one thing, a full fledge attack is another.

how many in brazil are catholics? at least 50% if not more.

why do all you christians and catholics celebrate a holiday that has nothing to do with the birth of jesus?

the bible never states when jesus was born. most biblical scholars esitmate he was born in the fall. [assuming he was ever born in the first place]

if you celebrate christmas your celebrating a Pagan holiday of worshiping the winter solstice.

it was a pope that made christmas dec 25 based on a roman pagan holiday that had been celebrated milleniums before anyone heard of jesus christ.

what does this day have to do with jesus?

should chritians and catholics around the world stop celebrating it?

i think they should. especially if you consider all the murders and deaths and tortures that have been conducted under the direction of, and while condoned by catholic popes.

(Edited by mooseboy84 at 4:02 am on Feb. 19, 2003)

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Total Posts: 12 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:57 am on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

Brazzuca

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My, my... Americans lecturing Brazilians on race! Whatever next?

A prominent American (I think a vice president) once advised: "always watch what people do, not what they say they do".

I think his advise is particularly pertinent and instructive to much of the debate regarding how Americans and Brazilians view, and act toward, race.

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

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Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 7:17 am on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

Ze

Junior Member

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Try burning books like Hitler did, you'll drastically decrease the number of learned and intellectuals in your country.

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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:48 am on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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IF THERE WAS EVER A WAY OF BLACKS EXPRESSING THEMSELVES ITS THROUGH HIP HOP MUSIC RAPPERS LIKE NWA,PUBLIC ENEMY,AND 2PAC MAY HAVE BEEN CONTROVERSIAL BUT THEY HAD TO BE TO GET THEIR POINT ACROSS PLUS THEY ARE PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF SPEECH ANOTHER PERK THAT WE HAVE HERE IN THE U.S

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:03 am on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

mooseboy84

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Quote: from Ze on 8:48 am on Feb. 19, 2003

Try burning books like Hitler did, you'll drastically decrease the number of learned and intellectuals in your country.

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wtf are you talking about?

i made my statement in regards to mancunimai and his remarks about kwanzaa. he made the statement that he would not want to celebrate a festival by a murder like karenga was, and that kwanzaa has nothing to do with africa.

thats why i ask the question why should christians celebrate a religon that has nothing to do with the birth of christ, especially considering the things that popes have done and condoned.

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Total Posts: 12 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 1:18 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Well, Mooseboy, seeing as how I'm hip to the bullshit behind the church, you can bet your sweet ass that I don't celebrate X-mas, either.

As for Kwanza being African, it just manifestly ain't. X-mas is a European rite based on prior pagan rituals that celebrates the birth of a Jewish messiah. The people who claim that it's anything else are just as much fools (IMHO) as the folks who claim Kwanza is African.

Look, celebrate whatever you want, OK? I'm just picky about my rituals and magic, which is one of the reasons you don't catch me in church praying for the health of Hizholiness the Pope.

As for "Black culture", sorry, I don't see it anywhere, just like I don't see "White culture". Culture doesn't have a color and if you think I'm talking out of my ass on this, then I'd like you to enlighten me as to what you mean by "Black" culture.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:04 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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BLACK CULTURE CAN ANYBODY SAY HIP HOP AND R&B WHICH BLACKS CREATED AND IT STARTED IN THE BRONX IN THE LATE 70'S AND NOT TO MENTION ROCK N ROLL BUT ELVIS STOLE THAT FROM US.WE ALSO CREATED JAZZ TO WHICH IS KING IN NEW ORLEANS WHICH HAPPENS TO BE 65% BLACK.SOUL FOOD IS PART OF OUR CULTURE TOO

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:54 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

Boricua

Newbie

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I need clarity here. Damnit I said I'd stay away from here.

Macunaima, now I agree "culture" has no race. I think America has culture, things we do ritualistically, and was carved by the American way. Now being that there are Blacks in America like Latins, of course they contributed to American culture, like so many immigrants and settlers here. Am I making any sense here? No there is not Black culture or White culture per se lol, but I do know what Black and White Americans mean when they say these things. It's an odd thing to say, but it's the constant bickering between the two groups of people. Whites hate Blacks and vice verse, and it's always about who created what lol and how much worth the other has over the other. A never ending cycle, that sadly many Latin/Hispanics have gotton themselves into. It's truly The AMERICAN WAY lol. But I agree culture has no color, because Americans have their own culture like Brazilians etc and it doesn't matter that one person is White, Black, Asian, Native American.

Now Marque, a correction. Hip-Hop/Rap was actually inspired by Reggae music and artists. The style of rapping, how rapping itself came about. Hip-Hop (which most people who don't get are confused by) ventured from the Bronx, breakdancing, lingos, clothes, and everything that made Hip-Hop a culture. People often confuse rap music with the Hip-Hop culture lol, it's an included part, but not the whole. It's a style of dress, the way people move, live, and speak. I mean how else can Japanese who don't speak a word of English sing alon to their favourite rapper or even know to dress a certain way. Hip-Hop doesn't belong to any one group, Blacks and Latins help to birth it, but once you create anything it's bound to draw people who didn't see it's growing process. Again so much territorial bullcrap goes on that the whole point gets missed. Just my opinion though and so off topic.

Culture has no color.

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Total Posts: 25 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:44 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

mooseboy84

Newbie

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Quote: from Macunaima on 5:04 pm on Feb. 19, 2003

Well, Mooseboy, seeing as how I'm hip to the bullshit behind the church, you can bet your sweet ass that I don't celebrate X-mas, either.

As for Kwanza being African, it just manifestly ain't. X-mas is a European rite based on prior pagan rituals that celebrates the birth of a Jewish messiah. The people who claim that it's anything else are just as much fools (IMHO) as the folks who claim Kwanza is African.

Look, celebrate whatever you want, OK? I'm just picky about my rituals and magic, which is one of the reasons you don't catch me in church praying for the health of Hizholiness the Pope.

As for "Black culture", sorry, I don't see it anywhere, just like I don't see "White culture". Culture doesn't have a color and if you think I'm talking out of my ass on this, then I'd like you to enlighten me as to what you mean by "Black" culture.

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christmas was never, "based on prior pagan rituals that celebrates the birth of a Jewish messiah."

it was turned into a holiday by pope pius I. he made it dec 25, which was a day that romans celebrated saturnailia. in other parts of europe they celebrated the winter solstice and other gods.

heres a link from a christian site.

http://www.biblestandard.com/q_a/Questions_Answers_C_23.htm

http://www.m-w.com

culture

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"5 a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man's capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a company or corporation"

theres an american culture, theres black culture, and theres boston irsih culture or subculture[s] if you want to be more proper.

from that definition, anyone of with a little common sense will be able to extrapolate a meaning of what 'black culture' is. since i dont feel like typing a 1000 word post, then ill give you a few links, like the

schomburg center for starts.

http://www.nypl.org/research/sc/sc.html

(Edited by mooseboy84 at 8:18 pm on Feb. 19, 2003)

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Total Posts: 12 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 8:08 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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THEY WERE INSPIRED BY REGGAE MUSIC WHICH ORIGINATES FROM JAMAICA AND WHAT IS THE DOMINANT RACE IN JAMAICA ITS BLACKS SO EITHER WAY YOU LOOK AT IT HIP HOP STILL ORIGINATED FROM US BLACKS FOLKS CAUSE LAST TIME I CHECKED JAMAICANS LOOK JUST LIKE US AFRICAN AMERICANS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THE ACCENT

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:34 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

Boricua

Newbie

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I digress Marque, perhaps you missed what I said. I never said it wasn't a creation by Blacks, but it's not a soley Black creation. Latins actually did help, as well as Jamaicans.

Now I know you like to claim all that is Black but with that causes friction, because last I check the entire carribean had it's own culture, different and separate than America's and any other place. Jamaicans in fact don't eat the same way say a Black American does. So please spare me this "well if a Black created, then it's "we" cause that's weak water in my eyes. That's like me claiming all that Mexico did, just because they are of the Latin diaspora. I'm Puerto Rican and although it's politically correct to say "we Latins" I do know that we are culturally all different. Mexico and Puerto Rico don't eat the same, or speak the same Spanish, just like Spain and Columbia and so on. So in that I feel some respect should be given to the different cultural views of each country.

Oh and not all Jamaicans look like African-Americans just like not all African-Americans look like Africans, they are just as diverse. There are Japanese Jamaicans, White Jamaicans, etc. And what does the average Black look like? I doubt you'd be able to say, because there is no one set look.

Sometimes Marque I think you do more harm with your comments to "your" people than you do helping.

Do you actually re-read your posts? Do you read all the posts you respond to completely? Because if you had then you wouldn't have responded to me as if I didn't agree with you.

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Total Posts: 25 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:20 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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YEAH NOT ALL JAMAICANS ARE BLACK BUT THE MAJORITY OF THEM ARE AND BY THE WAY WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW A WHITE JAMAICAN REGGAE ARTIST TRY NEVER

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:34 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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ITS NOT LIKE THERE IS A BUNDLE OF BLOND HAIRED BLUE EYED JAMAICANS.AND BY THE WAY IF I WENT TO JAMAICA I GUARANTEE YOU I WONT STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB.I MEAN ITS JAMAICA NOT MONTANA FOR CRYING OUT LOUD

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:45 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP

Brazzuca

Newbie

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Back to the Brazil "blacks" and race question:

Man, if I was "white" and racist against "blacks", heck, the idea of marrying a "black" and producing mongrel kinds with her would disgust me. And if I was a "black" who hated "whites", then I sure as hell wouldn't think of marrying one and producing kids with her.

So maybe a syllogism can be employed here. If it can be fairly assumed that people who discriminate racially don't marry those against whom they discriminate, and since Brazil is the most miscegenated country on earth, then how on earth can the people (Brazilians of German and Japanese descent excepted) be considered racist?

Also, if I was a Brazilian "black" who wanted to marry a Brazilian "white" and thereby "marry up", why should I assume that the Brazilian "white" would want to "marry down" my marrying me? How would that make any sense: "Here's the deal, Brazilian "white": if you marry me, I'll get to 'marry up' while you'll get to 'marry down'. Fair deal? Interested? Any takers?"

Question: how do you Aryanize a nation by de-Aryanizing it? How do you purifiy the "white" race by diluting it? Obviously a people who think like this cannot be expected to be taken seriously on the matter, since they themselves don't take the matter seriously.

How on earth can the Brazilians be considered racist when their actions over the last five hundred years (German and Japanese Brazilians excepted) have been to the contrary? Remember: if you hate "niggas", you sure as hell don't go and marry 'em! That's what U.S. history is all about, not the color-blind Brazilian history.

(Edited by Brazzuca at 1:18 am on Feb. 20, 2003)

(Edited by Brazzuca at 1:27 am on Feb. 20, 2003)

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

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Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 1:13 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Sick

Newbie

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Hmm....El Hombre is that you?

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I have the best hair on this website.

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Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 1:31 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Brazzuca

Newbie

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Sick, is that last comment directed at me or to someone else altogether?

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

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Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 1:37 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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WELL THE WHITE SLAVEOWNERS HATED BLACK FOLKS TOO BUT THAT DIDNT STOP THEM FROM HAVING SEX WITH THE SLAVE WOMEN WHETHER IT WAS BY FORCE OR VOLUNTARY.MALCOM X HATED WHITE FOLKS BUT HE HAD AN AFFAIR WITH A WHITE WOMAN BUT OFCOURSE AFTER MALCOM WENT TO THE MECCA HE CHANGED HIS EXTREMIST VIEWS ABOUT WHITE FOLKS BUT ANYWAY THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE IS JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE SEX WITH SOMEBODY OF ANOTHER RACE IT DONT MEAN YOUR TOLERANT OF THAT RACE ESPECIALLY IF THAT SEXUAL ENCOUNTER WAS RAPE WHICH MOST OF THE TIME THESE BLACK WOMEN WERE FORCED INTO I BET VERY FEW OF THEM WERE VOLUNTARY AND I HOPE THEM REDNECKS BURN IN HELL FOR WHAT THEY DID

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:40 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Sick

Newbie

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Sorry Brazzuca I thought you may have been someone else.

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I have the best hair on this website.

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Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 2:13 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Brazzuca

Newbie

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MARQUESEAZY, you talk about rape. So are all those mezclados in Brazil the result of rape? Cuz when I was there, there still seemed to be a whole lot of rapin' going on! And the women didn't seem to mind, neither -- they was happy bein' raped! And in many cases, from what I saw, it was the women who were doin' the rapin' -- and the guys didn't seem to mind neither, even when the negresses rapin' them were butt ugly. Besides, I'm talking about marriage and raising a family, not the rape-and-forget that went on in the United States. (though this, no doubt, took place in Brazil as well)

And Sick, who's this person you mistook me for? Was he relevant to what we're talking about? Cuz he must have been for you to bring him up. Does he have anything interesting to say on the issue?

(Edited by Brazzuca at 2:39 am on Feb. 20, 2003)

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

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Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 2:33 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Sick

Newbie

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Brazzuca I thought you may have been El Hombre from a past discussion on this board about race. And no, he would have nothing interesting to say on this issue.

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I have the best hair on this website.

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Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 2:50 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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WHAT THE HELL IS A MEZCLADO IS THAT WHAT THEY CALL BIRACIALS DOWN THERE NOW

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:51 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Brazzuca

Newbie

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And no, he would have nothing interesting to say on this issue.

So by you assuming that I was this guy, does that mean I haven't anything interesting to say?

WHAT THE HELL IS A MEZCLADO

A mezclado is simply someone who's mixed -- something that's very common in Brazil, unlike the United States, unless you insist on counting those rape-and-forgets from way back when.

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

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Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 3:02 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Sick

Newbie

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So Hombre, how have you been and where have you been? You've been missing out on your favorite topic.

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I have the best hair on this website.

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Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:04 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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BRAZZUCA ARE YOU BRAZILIAN

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:15 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Brazzuca

Newbie

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Where have I been?

Mate, where the heck's Nady-boy -- O-Homem, Mr Paul, et.al.?

Only you left, mate. Only you and that bastard Ze.

Man, I've occasionally checked -- by the way, in case you are wondering, I did have the last word -- the forum and done a search for my buddy Nadelstich, but he seems to have disappeared after my thread. Not another peep from him since. And the same with O-Homem. Mr Paul seems to have hung around for quite a bit, but he seems to have disappeared also, otherwise he'd be in the thick of things here.

I thought I'd have a peak here for old time's sakes -- and what do I find? A reincarnation of the old bugaboo topic, where everyone tries to deny the blindingly obvious through pernicious sophistry. I've been seeing plenty of that on this particular thread, plenty of it -- though that marksleazy guy (or whatever) has been mighty entertaining. So I've been spending much of last night and today reading this whole thread and catching up. Now we got a bunch of lefty academics, eh! Certainly high-brow now! So the crap we see produced now is of a more sophisticated nature! Oh, well, at least it makes the reading more interesting.

Good to be back. Good to see you again (thanks again for finding that article by Klor de Alva). And I guess it's also good to see you too, Ze. If you insist on lambasting me in Portuguese again, my mastery of the language has improved just that one bit. I'll be fluent by the end of this year -- promise!

(Edited by Brazzuca at 3:38 am on Feb. 20, 2003)

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

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Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 3:24 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Sick

Newbie

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Haha you're funny. It is good to see you too. I hope you've been well. I look forward to see how your "paradigm shift" holds up here.

Tchau

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I have the best hair on this website.

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Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:33 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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HEY SICK ARE YOU OBSESSED WITH APU

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:43 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Jeromy

Junior Member

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I may be making a point that already has been made.

In my opinion there definitely is racism in Brazil. All one has to do is look at the percentage of blacks who live in poverty to prove that.

I in two different U.S. cities had Brazilian friends who were surprised to see so many Afro-Americans prospering, and commented that you rarely see this in Brazil.

The difference I have seen in Brazil. Is that there is not such a separation socially between the races as in U.S.. You have more mixing of races and colors in social circles. I mean is inter-racial couples even a concept in Brazil? It seems that this is such an accepted thing, much more than in the U.S..

For instance I had a girlfriend who was Afro-Brazilian. Not one time around Brazilians did someone look us strangely because we were an inter-racial couple. But many times, from both blacks and whites we would get those funny looks from Americans (though they didn't have the balls to say anything).

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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 3:44 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Brazzuca

Newbie

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BRAZZUCA ARE YOU BRAZILIAN

Yep. Fair dinkum, true-blue Brazilian, matey!

Sick, so what gave me away? I even tried employing American spelling (Aryanize instead of Aryanise) and felt illiterate doing it -- just so's I could get away from the Wrath. But no matter.

I like to think that I affected Nadelstich et.al. to such an extent that they quit the forum altogether, taking a sabbatical and going off to a cabin home in the hills of Montana to sit and reflect, rocking themselves backwards and forwards to sleep everyday in the foetal position. I obviously had no effect on you!

Tchau

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

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Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 3:50 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

MARQUESEAZY

Junior Member

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MY MOM WHO IS MIXED RACE TOLD ME WHEN SHE WAS GROWING UP IN JACKSON,MISSISSIPPI THAT PEOPLE WOULD STARE AT HER AND HER MOTHER BECAUSE HER MOTHER IS WHITE AND PEOPLE WOULD COME UP TO HER BOTH BLACK AND WHITE AND ASK HER IF THAT COLORED GIRL WAS REALLY HER DAUGHTER AND SHE WOULD RESPOND WHAT DO YOU THINK.MY MOM IS MIXED RACE BUT SHE IDENTIFYS HERSELF AS BLACK HER DAD WHO IS BLACK TOLD HER THATS HOW THE WORLD WILL SEE YOU AS CAUSE SHE STILL HAD TO SIT IN THE BACK OF THE BUS THIS WAS THE 1950'S BY THE WAY

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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:55 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Sick

Newbie

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Brazzuca, only you would refer to Brasil as a "color-blind society". I just sat there shaking my head thinking "Damn, that's El Hombre!" . I remembered you using mezclado in the other thread and it stuck with me because I had never heard that term before. And finally, your signature "Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do. " ...this is what you often implored us to consider when thinking of Brasil. Plus, I have a good memory in general.

Marqueseazy, I chose the Apu avatar becuase it was the only one that has hair that even approached the greatness of mine.

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I have the best hair on this website.

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Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:03 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

dean

Newbie

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Most men of any race wont turn done a piece if it's thrown at them . Still how many Blancas do you see raping "black" men not named "Pele"? How morenas many want children who may be darker or hair more nappy? White men have historically had access over women of color, does that imply racial tolerance or domination? This question might be tough to answer from a a "white" Brasilian's perspective...

(Edited by dean at 5:04 am on Feb. 20, 2003)

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Total Posts: 4 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 5:03 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Brazzuca

Newbie

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All one has to do is look at the percentage of blacks who live in poverty to prove that.

Jerome, I actually confronted Mr John Fitzpatrick, who contributes to this magazine, by e-mail over what I believe is the fallacy that because the "blacks" are generally poorer in Brazil, then this must be because they're discriminated against. If you like, I can post my long e-mail to him here.

MY MOM IS MIXED RACE BUT SHE IDENTIFYS HERSELF AS BLACK HER DAD WHO IS BLACK TOLD HER THATS HOW THE WORLD WILL SEE...

WRONG, Marksleazy -- your maternal grandpa ought to have told your mother not that that's how the world is going to see her but that that's how American society is going to see her. Brazilian society definitely wouldn't have seen her like that or attached that social stigma to her or forced her to ride at the back of any bus. Quit shoving your American dysfunctions on Brazil. Not everywhere's like America (US). Not everyone thinks like an American (US).

Still how many Blancas do you see raping "black" men not named "Pele"?

Not everyone's an American (US). Not everyone thinks like an American (US). Why don't you come and visit Australia and New Zealand and see how your fellow Anglo-Saxon women act toward negritos? You know, I think it's this false but pervasive assumption that lies at the root of this whole thing -- the automatic assumption that because Americans (US) think in a particular manner, then everyone ipso facto must think likewise, regardless of all evidence to the contrary.

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

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Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 5:24 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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RE: Black culture...

MULATINHO sez: "BLACK CULTURE CAN ANYBODY SAY HIP HOP AND R&B..."

Well, that might be black american culture, yes. But it's about as "African" or globally "black" as the Charleston.

There are as many European influences in "black" music as there are African, starting with the language the songs are sung in and many of the instruments that are used. The whole idea of "spectacle", a group of musicians playing on a stage, is a European thing. Though african-american musical forms tend to leave more room for audience feed back, they are still relatively passive spectacles.

And as for "stealing", culture simply doesn't work that way. There's no patent or origin to cultural forms, no beginning or end. They evolve from mixes of influences and spin off into new things. Elvis' music was just as heavily influenced by poor white rural culture as it was black. It went on to influence both black and white musicians. Who's steealing from whom?

MULATINHO seems to feel, like most people, that culture has an inherent "owner". It doesn't. Culture itself is neutral. It's a medium of exchange. It's no more "black" or "white" than, say, money is. But that doesn't mean that people don't fight over it. Culture is something we all create. where it goes after we create it, no one can predict.

Different from property or money, however, culture isn't finite or even fixed in place and time. That is to say, my learning how to use a certain cultural category of yours doesn't deprive you of that same cultural category. Thus MULATINHO'S "robbery" metaphor is stupid twice over. Saying jazz "belongs" to blacks is like saying English "belongs" to the English. It's a form of communication that one can learn or not.

Boricua, these same comments can be applied to Brazil and the U.S. there's nothing inherently "Brazilian" or "American" about the cultures that are created within those two nations. They are simply mediums of exchange, which anyone can learn to use.

MOOSEBOY sez:

"christmas was never, "based on prior pagan rituals that celebrates the birth of a Jewish messiah."

it was turned into a holiday by pope pius I. he made it dec 25, which was a day that romans celebrated saturnailia. in other parts of europe they celebrated the winter solstice and other gods."

Er, Moosie, don't get me wrong here, but I think you're having trouble with the word "Pagan". You think the saturnalia and these "other gods" you talk about were what, exactly, Islamic?

Your comment proves precisely what I said. X-mas is a European ritual (I assume we agree that Pope Pius I wasn't African or Asian) based on prior pagan rituals (the saturnalia and celtic solsitice rituals, frex) which celebrated the birth of a Jewish messiah (Jesus had a trimmed weenie and celebrated his bar mitzvah with the finest New York kosher caterers). So what, exactly, are you objecting to in my description of x-mas?

Re: your description of culture, beliefs are not primordial. They are transmitted and change in the transmission. The "traditional beliefs of any social group" are culture, yes, but they are not rigidly in place and do not transmit in a 'pure" fashion. To say that a certain belief "belongs" to a given social group simply because they celebrate it is stupid and goes against the first part of the definition you quoted to us.

MULATINHO sez jazz in "black" culture. But jazz could never have existed without cultural influences from all over the world. Why is it "black", then? Because people say it is, nothing more or less. That's POLITICS at work, friend, not nature.

Boricua, hate to take MUILATINO'S side on this, but just because you're willing to fuck someone doesn't mean you see them as an equal. Women were for centuries seen as being inferior to men but that didn't stop men from marrying them.

That said, I find it interesting, again, the dichotomy demonstrated by American and Brazilian reactions to miscegenation. Americans always seem to feel that mestiços are the fruit of rape, carried out under slavery. Brazilians see mestiços as living proof that the human heart and desires cannot be bound by racist dogmas. Both ideas are full of crap. There was plenty of rape under slavery and since then. There was also plenty of consensual sex. There's no proof, one way or the other, that one form of sexual mixture weighed out over the other.

The major problem with this whole debate, people, is that you're taking politically defined human differences and trying to turn them into "natural" divisions. "Blacks", "latinos" and "whites" are artifical divisons created by history and politics. There's no essential "there", there folks. you guys are like the 19th century Germans and the French arguing over whether alsace-lorraine was "naturally" French or German. It was a piece of land that wasn't "naturally" anything. That didn't mean that two peoples couldn't fight over it, however.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:28 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Jeromy

Junior Member

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Macunaima said "Culture itself is neutral. It's a medium of exchange. It's no more "black" or "white" than, say, money is. But that doesn't mean that people don't fight over it. Culture is something we all create. where it goes after we create it, no one can predict."

I think this is an excellent point. I second it.

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Total Posts: 55 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 5:54 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Brazzuca

Newbie

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There's no proof, one way or the other, that one form of sexual mixture weighed out over the other.

Yeah? Look, there's obviously a difference between rape-and-forget and marrying someone in order to sire kids and raise a family and so on. If I was a "white" racist who felt "blacks" were biologically inferior, then why would I choose to marry a "black" woman over a "white" woman and sire kids with her? Would not the superiority of my kids be compromised by the miscegenation? Are you suggesting that Brazilians are mightily confused people -- that they mean one thing yet to the complete opposite? There's a big difference between raping someone and not caring the slightest about any offspring produced and marrying someone you love and raising a family you also love with her.

Come on, mate, how's about making a little sense? I know you're an academic, but please try.

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

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Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 6:01 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Brazuca, I say that there's no proof that one of these forms was more prevelant than the other and you think I'm saying there's no DIFFERENCE. Reboot, read what I said again, and see if you understand it this time. I'm not saying there's no difference between rape and consensual sex. I am saying that we have no solid proof that one is more prevalent than the other in miscegenation, even during slavery.

Re: your other points, look, plenty of slave owners in Brazil had kids with slaves and NEVER assumed that those kids were theirs. Sex doesn't mean "settle down and raise kids" necessarily. Plenty of men today - regardless of nationality or skin color - generate kids through consensual sex whom they then cheerfully abandon.

What I'm reacting to here is the Brazilian feeling that all interacial mixture is the result of love and the American feeling that it is the result of rape.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:07 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP

Macunaima

Member

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Oddly enough, Brazuca's opinion is similar to the one I gave above. The differences apparent in Brazilian and American racism are mostly on the ideological level. When one looks at what people actually DO, one sees that things are pretty similar.

"If you're white, you´re alright. If you're brown, stick around. If you're black, get back." That's a U.S. American racist saying that maps over perfectly onto Brazilian racist practice. Apparently, despite the preachings of guys like MARQUES MULATINHO, Americans are a hell of a lot more color conscious in practice than they'd like to admit. "Everyone's black or white in the U.S." my ass. If that's true, why are American black celebrities almost always lighter-skinned mulatos?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:27 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP


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