Brazzil Forum
Message Board
» back to brazzil.com
Register | Profile | Log-in | Lost Password | Active Users | Help | Search

» Welcome Brazzil: Log out | Messenger | Check New Posts | Mark all posts as read

    Brazzil Forum
    General
        A strategic plan to Brazil development
Mark all forum posts as read   [ help ]
» Your last visit to this forum was: Mar. 25, 2003 - 6:12pm «

Topic Jump
<< Back Next >>
Single Page for this topic
Forum moderated by: No One
 

 
BlackBaron



Newbie
   
Hi All:
First, sorry due to my low english language level...i will try improve it step by step..corrections will be welcome.

Well, i have heard around here in Brazil that President Lula has no alternatives to improve Brazil development fast, and he should to keep things as they are....this sounds to me as a foolish.
Uthopy is necessary...dreams are the start of everything trully great that has happened in the human history. Only cowards do not have dreams...

I have a dream....I think this my dream could be a seed for a true development plan to Brazil.
Let me present it for you guys...i would like to know your opinions...and jokes too

1) Petroleum is now the main energy moving the world..but it is finite...what substance could substitute petroleum with eficacy?....the answer is INDIRECT solar energy.
Why "indirect?"....cause I mean BIOMASS energy...large plantations absorving solar energy by photossinthesys..and after that releasing it as  alchool and heavy vegetable oil.
Alchool shoud  be the unique fuel admited here in Brazil...all small cars should  use it...this techonology exist here for ages.
Oil for heavy cars, trucks, ships, trains, machinery, etc (diesel oil and combustible oil) could be both substituted by heavy vegetable olive (babaçu, dendê oil)..this is just technology proved as well.

So..we could make Brazil a petroleum exporter country!..a OPEC member!...and we could get billions of dollars selling oil in the world market, avoiding IMF loans and others financial problems....this is totally possible just now!..it depends on Lula´s political will ..and lots of courage to face international oil lobbies.

2) In order to produce the large quantities of alcoohol and heavy vegetable oils, lots of people could be atracted from the shantytowns (favelas) around brazilian big capitals, to country cities, where the private agroindustries should be located, as well large sugar cane, dendê and babaçú  (kinds of  coocnut  that  produces heavy oil) , it could employ millions of them solving three problems :  a) workers for plantations and factories, b) jobs for unemployed people and c) reducing the huge social pression and criminality in the big cities!

3) Progressively, the internal substitution of gasoline-moved cars , diesel-moved trucks and oil-machines,  by their bio-oil correspondants ,  it should release brazilian petroleum for exportation, making Brazil an OPEC member and getting dollars abroad due to the brazilian oil sales in the international market.

I know this idea can be a too simple point-of-view, and iI do not ignore the huge obstacules to face, but..i feel it is possible...if Lula, his staff and the brazilian people support the idea.

I would like to make clear that only part of this idea is mine, the basis of it is of the great brazilian PHD MIT physicist Mr.Bautista Vidal, who was a former Science and Technology Secretary during the dictatorship, but a man with large ideas and a creator of many brazilian research centers in 70´s . Please, read his books, among them: " Poder dos Trópicos" ....you will become a fan of his ideas certainly!

What are your opinions, guys?...i sent this suggestion to  Labour Party (PT) site...i hope i give my contribution to my country. (do not laugh ...I am not plagiarizing Mr.Kennedy

BlackBaron

Total Posts: 2 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:48 am on Jan. 4, 2003 | IP
Guest



Anonymous
   
I say give Lula a chance. I believe he will seriously try to ease poverty, hunger and homelessness. He may not succeed but he WILL try.
Keep sending this plan to all levels of government. Someone might just pick up on it and see great value in it. Anything to get Brasil into a leaadership role will be welcomed especially in South America which needs a counterbalance to the advances and promises of the US.

Good luck. Keep us updated.

Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:56 am on Jan. 4, 2003 | IP
Lucas


Newbie
   
O óleo de soja "super" refinado funciona em motores a diesel sem nenhum adaptação, pelo que ouvi falar. No oeste baiano estão fazendo testes, basta o governo dar um empurrão.

Os maiores problemas dos brasileiros são esse complexo de inferioridade e apego pela inércia, necessitamos de um catalisador, se é o Lula eu não sei, mas espero que sim.


(Edited by Lucas at 9:25 pm on Jan. 4, 2003)

-----
Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh

Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:22 pm on Jan. 4, 2003 | IP
fernandobn


Junior Member
   
I agree with Lucas, we need a "Catalizador" and maybe Lula is the one! This is not for my time, but I think is the beggining. We cannot waste more time and resources! We have so many bright ideas and good technologies to develop. I've seen a lot of promises and nothing changed. Now I am living in USA, but I realize that now is the time to go back and make a difference.  

-----
Fernando B.

Total Posts: 55 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:06 pm on Jan. 4, 2003 | IP
Sick



Newbie
   
BlackBaron,

A couple questions leap to mind. The first one is when did Vidal put forth this idea? I am wondering if it is a bit outdated. I am under the impression that hydrogen fuel cell technology is the leading alternative energy source at present. This doesn't negate what you are presenting simply because I do not know the science of it all, just curious what you think about it.

The second question follows from the first in that the politics surrounding an endeavor like you are proposing can be quite complicated these days. Specifically, the impact on the environment. Not only in regards to the potential negative environmental effects of burning the fuels you propose, but also in producing it. It would take a lot of land, fuel, chemicals, etc. to produce enough needed to do this. Again, I do not know the details of what you propose, especially the science of it, I just wonder how you would address these issues.

You are right about dreams, my only criticism of your dream is it isn't bold enough. You presented an "old economy" solution. There is a place for this no doubt and a natural place to begin but the new economy is not focused on natural resources. It is focused on information and technology. Brasil already has a good technology base, it has a space program for starters and technology is where, in my opinion, Brasil should focus. Of course this costs money and educational reforms will be needed, they are long overdue anyway. Brasil could easily raise the money because it is so rich in natural resources. So, I am not suggesting a US style consumer based economy but a technology based economy that is more flexible and not constrained by demand for natural resources. In other words, technology would be the focus and Brasil's natural resources the foundation but not the main creator of wealth for the nation. Brasil is one of only a few countries on the planet fortunate enough to be blessed with so much natural wealth. You do have a good seed of an idea, I just think you should set your sights higher.

By the way, your English is just fine.

-----
I have the best hair on this website.

Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:33 pm on Jan. 4, 2003 | IP
USCIT


Newbie
   
Just for continued comment, the idea of hydrocarbons from renewable sources (grains, vegetable oils, alcohol) etc. is a very good one and certain ventures in that direction have been made in the area where I am. The problem however is the infrastructure of distribution and consumption. In order for it to become economically feasible, it has to be done in huge quantities. At present, there is neither the distribution facilities nor the consumer. For such as automobiles, all combustion systems would have to be revamped to burn straight alcohol. In essence, a completly new engine developed. That is the first big holdup. The auto manufacturers won't build the engine (which is easy enough to build) because no one is set up to provide filling stations world wide, or nation wide, to make use of them and make them a selling item. And, no one will build the distribution systems because there isn't enough usage. A Catch 22.

Things that are also needed in the world are advanced hydrogen manufacturing facilities. Natures most abundant element, but for some reason it seems to be very expensive to produce. I would like to see someone come out with an economical fuel cell. Were it done I feel that company or whatever would have a corner on the world market. The fuel cells have been fairly well refined, but not the fuel supply for them.

And, the greatest of all fuels is cold fusion. As I understand it Briton has invested something like 4 billion dollars in a cold fusion plant. The US something like 11  billion. Then I read about a guy in Texas who invested 50 Thousand, and has a working plant in his own garage. Must be something wrong with his system, or these billion dollar investors would be jumping on it. Yet it is working, so it must be possible.

Just a few thoughts about alternate fuel sources.  A great advantage for anyone who gets a working system going.

-----
USCIT

Total Posts: 21 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:13 am on Jan. 5, 2003 | IP
BlackBaron



Newbie
   
Hi All!

Guest: .." ...I say give Lula a chance. I believe he will seriously try to ease poverty, hunger and homelessness. He may not succeed but he WILL try.
Keep sending this plan to all levels of government. Someone might just pick up on it and see great value in it...."

I agree with you..Lula is going to try...and that is the main aspect...others before him only promised to try...because they are representative of the corrupt brazilian "elite", whose purpose is " Changing... to keep the status quo"...Lula is a true brazilian...he does not think that himself  is a european living in Brazil (I do not have nothing against europeans) as FHC--who likes to show off his sociological culture,  speaking in many languages, for people abroad,  inside rich palaces, while millions of brazilians do not know if they are going to eat a piece of  bread tomorrow, even living in a 8.500.000 km2 country!--No!..now we have a brazilian running our country....an illiterate leader?...no..he was approved with honour  in the most hard university: the life.
Finally, thanks very much for your encouragment...I still continue sending this Mr.Vidal´s idea to many representatives, press, unions, etc...this is what I can do now for my country...and i will do it, certainly.

To Lucas: " O óleo de soja "super" refinado funciona em motores a diesel sem nenhum adaptação, pelo que ouvi falar. No oeste baiano estão fazendo testes, basta o governo dar um empurrão. Os maiores problemas dos brasileiros são esse complexo de inferioridade e apego pela inércia, necessitamos de um catalisador, se é o Lula eu não sei, mas espero que sim...."

Well, I have read here in Brazil we have the total domain of this technology--engines moved by vegetal oil.
There is no doubt about. Certainly, some adjustments should be done ir order to make engines more effective, but those are small problems when its production becames a priority. Needs,brains, knowledgment, investiments, focusing and political will...make miracles fast.
I do not agree with: " brazilians have inferiority complex and inercy.." this is a mistaken  view of our society in my opinion...our root- problem is only one: hard or impossible access to education and culture!....and this is not a genetic trace...this is a heritage of 500 years of the political domain by a corrupted , selfish and racist elite...this story began with the traditional portuguese families for whom Brazil was donated (remember Capitanias Hereditárias) in XVI century...that selfish, racist  and corrupted elite planted strong roots inside our society (read Casa Grande e Senzala, by Gilberto Freire)...these roots are  well reflected in our obsolet civil law code--with laws that protect the richs, sons of this original elite, crossing centuries without changes-- in customs and traditions, social behaviours, etc...always keeping privilegies for rich and white people. The elite is smart...it knows that iliterate people is easy to manipulate...education and culture are the most dangerous weapons that a people can use against a corrupt elite...so...why the elitists emperors and corrupted presidents, along Brazil´s history,  should make easy the acess to education to the common people?....this should  be as  " to shot their own feet.."........give opportunity to acesss education and culture to common people...and we will see this stereotype disapeear as smoke in the air.


to Fermandobn: "I agree with Lucas, we need a "Catalizador" and maybe Lula is the one! This is not for my time, but I think is the beggining. We cannot waste more time and resources! We have so many bright ideas and good technologies to develop. I've seen a lot of promises and nothing changed. Now I am living in USA, but I realize that now is the time to go back and make a difference.   "

Yes, man...Lula is the "catalyst" ...I agree with you and Lucas, certainly...but...it is time --for all of us..brazilians..living here or anywhere in the world--to join forces to give Lula the necessary support, in order to let him know that we are together in this cruzade..a peaceful one, but a cruzade where the social justice and  right laws became the sword cutting heads of this extreme corrupted elite that has controlled our destiny since the XVI century!...give him his support...there are many forms to contribute...choose one and do it!..and do not forget : the main one is to spread out information for our illiterate people.

to Sick "A couple questions leap to mind. The first one is when did Vidal put forth this idea? I am wondering if it is a bit outdated. I am under the impression that hydrogen fuel cell technology is the leading alternative energy source at present. This doesn't negate what you are presenting simply because I do not know the science of it all, just curious what you think about it. "

Well, i am no an expert in alternative energy as well, but i have read the news for common people ..i know that Hydrogen cells tech is in the center the attention...but...i think this is an expensive technology that is not being developed in my country,Brazil. We are very far from getting this knowledgement...and certainly, for a huge debtor country as Brazil...is not an intelligent option pay high royalties for it...do you agree?...certainly, small efforts in order to develop this technology here will be made (as we did towards getting nuclear energy tech), but i think is not our best alternative AT THIS MOMENT; besides, Hydrogen tech it seems to me will take a medium-long time to be dominated considering safety aspects (i am not sure about)..and..we, brazilians can not wait anymore. We need action just now...or...a social explosion as that happened in Venezuela, Argentine, can be hit us.
Bio-gas and bio-oil are cheap and totally dominated techs for us...and the effect of its use could be almost immediate, solving part of our emergency social problems faster than any other alternative...this is my opinion in this moment, considering my information level.

...."The second question follows from the first in that the politics surrounding an endeavor like you are proposing can be quite complicated these days. Specifically, the impact on the environment. Not only in regards to the potential negative environmental effects of burning the fuels you propose, but also in producing it. It would take a lot of land, fuel, chemicals, etc. to produce enough needed to do this. Again, I do not know the details of what you propose, especially the science of it, I just wonder how you would address these issues. "

Well, i can deduce from this part that you do not live in Brazil, am i rigt?...listen: a) plants depends basically on 3 things: good land, water and sun. take a world map..look... which landmass are located in the tropical latitudes?...Africa (upper half is a desert, and lots of  wars or big troubles in south)....Australia (a huge inner desert as well) and part of the South America, where Brazil is the largest country, with the greatest useful land extention in the world ! The rest of the world  is located in temperated zone, where the sun does not shine strongly all the year and the crops are limited by winter..right?
b) Brazil is an expertise in alchool and sugar production tech since XVI century. Here are huge sugar cane plantations farms associated with lots of destillery for alchool and sugar. ..and there are milions of acres in Brazil waiting for more plantations (not necessary one acre im Amazon!..northwestern, certerwestern and southeastern brazilian regions have enough land for this big project, believe me) ..enough to produce oil and alchool for  Brazil market  and even export the excedent!
There are no doubts about..Mr.Vidal made all scientific calculus considering land extension, solar incidence rates, vegetal species, productivicty/acre, crops/year, chemicals to correct some lands, workforce, energy/acre, etc, etc...and demonstrate that scientifically. He is a psysicist with MIT (USA) PHd , and a true scientist.
About environmentals problems...well...the bio-oils combustion do not produces substances in quantity or quality worse than ones produced by petroleum derivatives...this is not a doubt anymore, its a scientific data. Here in Brazil, we have lots of alchool-moved cars since the 80´s ...during a time, the car production of Ford, Wolks, Gm, Fiat, etc. here reached 90% alchool-cars!
Even our gasoline is about 20% mixed with alchool..and this was intensively studied and approved by environmental authorities and some ONG´s.
The environmental problems concerning production are  under control, for example: alchool is produced from sugar cane, but "vinhoto" as well..its a liquid with organic substance that smells very badly and --if reach the rivers can kill all fishs and organisms--is a solved problem, because now it is re-used for feed the new growing plants by a duct system, at same time irrigates with water ans supply the soil with minerals and organic molecules..and..the solid cane rests, after dry, are used as fuel in boiled water-machines that produces steam ...that make giants turbines ran and produce electric power ....that feed other machinery, houses, facilities...a fantastic and totally closed system!..and this is a reallity here for ages!..but not in the appropriate scale as proposed now.


..."You are right about dreams, my only criticism of your dream is it isn't bold enough. You presented an "old economy" solution. There is a place for this no doubt and a natural place to begin but the new economy is not focused on natural resources. It is focused on information and technology. Brasil already has a good technology base, it has a space program for starters and technology is where, in my opinion, Brasil should focus. Of course this costs money and educational reforms will be needed, they are long overdue anyway. Brasil could easily raise the money because it is so rich in natural resources. So, I am not suggesting a US style consumer based economy but a technology based economy that is more flexible and not constrained by demand for natural resources. In other words, technology would be the focus and Brasil's natural resources the foundation but not the main creator of wealth for the nation. Brasil is one of only a few countries on the planet fortunate enough to be blessed with so much natural wealth. You do have a good seed of an idea, I just think you should set your sights higher...."

Well, you are totally right saying that this is an old economy solution...and partly about new tech is focused in information and technology....because this idea is useful only for first world country, where the basics population problems are solved and the budget and scientific research are free to try solutions by new edge techs..but it is not a way for countries like Brazil...we can not use our small budget with basic research (the craddle of the useful science) . ..and we are too delayed to compete against the seven-first world countries tech..is a Davi-Goliath fight..do not you see?; besides, first world-countries never abandoned their primary (food production) and secondary (industrial) economy sectors ..they keep them well ...large mechanized plantations in middle USA and California Valley are good examples, are not?...and protect their farmers with fito-barriers, quotes, subsidies (USA, France, etc) against third world exportations...do not them do that?
This question, as Alvin Toffler has aproached in his books, have a side that I do not agree completely..it is impossible the entire world dedicate its efforts only for information tech...the primary sector (food production) is the engine of the economy if you think the world as a unique country...as a closed system). Look: people need feed...always...machine-industry (2nd sector) and information services (3rd sector)  does not feed anyone!..they only make money circulates....think using the "absurd method": ..if all countries in the world put their efforts to create techonology...who will buy it?...who will give food for them?...this Toffler´s theory is valid if one thinks that is possible some countries keep his status forever...third world producing only food and 1st world only producing technology....is this possible?...i do not believe...step by step, third world will produce both...Brazil is an example...we have now the  4th airplane industry in the world (Embraer)...but..must we abandon our giant land extension only to produce more sophysticaded spacecrafts?.. while our people die by starvation?...I think the righgt way is the "balance"..all economic sectors must be developed, but with emphasys in the one where we can compete and made our country independent ...as totally as possible.
We have a main question here too, a philosofical question: ..what is the basic goal of a governor of a country?...i think the answer is in Maslow´s behaviour thesis: mankind need first food, shelter ans safety (basics needs)...after that (or paralel) , it must try satisfy the needs more sophysticated)...one can not begin to build a house starting the roof...instead basement..do you agree?

to USCITS: ...well, i belive my answer to Sick clarified my idea....and those infra-structure problems are not a big problem here in Brazil...there are here an huge oil and alchool (an now natual gas) distribution network. Lots of gas sation here sells alchool and now some are starting sell natural gas for cars ans buses..now we have 3 types of fuel in the Brazil streets . I do not think this is a big problem.....and cold fusion isa only a dream for us.

Thnks all for criticism....and for tolerate my english

Total Posts: 2 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:44 am on Jan. 5, 2003 | IP
Sick



Newbie
   
Blackbaron,

Thank you for the responses to my questions. I think we are saying the same thing in only slightly different ways. Given Brasil's wealth in natural resources, the immediate focus should be to use that in Brasil's favor. That is exactly what you propose, and I agree, agriculture and industrial-agriculture should be the foundation of the Brasilian economy, because you will always have that.  So I agree with you about what Lula should do first. When I said you aren't being bold enough in your dreams, I meant what does Brasil do AFTER Brasil's economic base can be solidified. I put it to you this way because I think, historically, developing nations rightly initially focus on their natural resources but simply remain there and are then subject to the whims of supply and demand for raw materials. That initial prosperity can be lost in an instant when technology advances. Brasil could easily rival the US economically, it just requires bold vision beyond exploiting natural resources.

The challenge for Lula, beyond addressing immediate concerns that got him elected, is to follow through with some vision. Personally I believe, and you alluded to this, education has to be a priority and one of his legacies. It will be interesting, as an outsider, to see how Lula balances the demands of his traditional supporters with a vision for the future of Brasil. I say this because, he is the first elected left wing Latin American leader that made it to office without resorting to extreme demagoguery, like say, Chavez did. From what I gather, Lula seems to understand that wealth needs to be created BEFORE it can be redistributed. I think this is what you are suggesting and something Chavez types have no concept of. Despite my disdain for left wing solutions, I see promise in Lula and for Brasil. Afterall, following the inception of the US, it was no modern model for economic or social freedom. The extension of these freedoms became the vision, eventually. Dismantaling inequities does take time but can be done. The US has probably been the most successful to date, although far from perfect. It is now Lula's turn to do the same.

-----
I have the best hair on this website.

Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 11:46 am on Jan. 5, 2003 | IP
fernandobn


Junior Member
   
Thanks BlackBaron, I just want to say that there is a long way to go, so is it not for my time, maybe for my kids or their kids! I always believed in Brazil! In 1992 my friends and I tired of been explored by employers, decided to practice a very good idea in terms of  participation on the company wealth, called COOPERATIVE work! It is a true COOPERATIVE not the one's that you see today, like companies creating their own COOPERATIVES, just to get rid of the workers charge required by CLT, this is not right! The COOPERATIVE exists because of their members, does not have few owners, but every member is a OWNER! Its is impossible to do this correctly in our country! We joined others and created an association of the COOPERATIVES in the Rio de Janeiro State to defend our believes in Congress because the IT companies created a lobby in congress to change the COOPERATIVISM rules, because they were loosing money, Why? Because COOPERATIVE work  is executed by members,  and the payment goes to the one's who did the job and not to the company, only a small amount goes to the cooperative to pay for the infrastructure. So, is a company working for you! But this is not easy to do, in a corrupted market! So people who contracted the services is happy because they are paying the fair amount of "Reais", because the member(s) who executed the service has the Highest interest that the job done was the best possible for his sake! And as a COOPERADO the member cannot sue the client claiming he did not receive all the benefits after three months of work, because this situation in our country configure an employment status.  So, I still believe in this idea! People working this way can have more "reais" for themselves and be proud of their work! To start a COOPERATIVE you need at least 20 Members, in our case each one gave $700 to start the COOPERATIVE, as you see, is not that impossible to start something with few dollars! But the most chalenging thing is the consciousness that now you need to make things happens, no more bosses telling you what to do! This is only an example that how Brazil is feasible, participation of all! I know, first things first! More education is necessary, Law changes and etc! I want to believe that what Lula said about "feed the Brazilian people" means creation of opportunities of employment, work fronts and etc!

-----
Fernando B.

Total Posts: 55 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 2:17 pm on Jan. 5, 2003 | IP
Lucas


Newbie
   
Sick>> "From what I gather, Lula seems to understand that wealth needs to be created BEFORE it can be redistributed."
Ohh nooooo.... We've heard that before! "Vamos deixar o bolo crescer para depois dividi-lo" Delfim Neto, 70's.

BlackBaron>> PT is a shit party, literally! They were oposite to almost all actions of FHC government and now they're doing the same, probably PT noticed that governing a country isn't like "com uma canetada eu resolvo tudo isso"..


(Edited by Lucas at 8:56 pm on Jan. 5, 2003)

-----
Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh

Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 2:55 pm on Jan. 5, 2003 | IP
Guest



Anonymous
   
Blackbaron. I am European. I love Brasil more than my own country. Don't ask why it is a love developed over many years. I see the potential and the love of life in Brasil. The natural and human resources available to any leader who has the foresight to take advantage of them and drag Brasil into the modern world and into a leadership role in this world. They are quite capable of this.
I would give my right arm to proclaim myself Brasilian. So be proud of your country and fight for everything you can there. Fight for the hungry, the homeless, the street kids. They are all worth it.

GOD BLESS BRASIL

Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:24 pm on Jan. 5, 2003 | IP
 

Topic Jump
<< Back Next >>
Single Page for this topic

Topic Options: Lock topic | Edit topic | Unlock topic | Delete topic | Move topic

© 2003 Brazzil | Our Privacy Statement

Powered by Ikonboard 2.1.9 Beta
© 2001 Ikonboard.com