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        How hard is to be Black in Brazil
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Macunaima


Member
   
Y’know, Adrianerik, I got to thinking about your implied criticism that I’m attributing Brazil’s racial problems to outside agitators... In fact, I’m charging just the opposite. I’d LOVE to see some outside agitation on social justice issues in Brazil. I’d love to see anti-racist Americans – of whatever color – willing to put their lives, fortune and sacred honor on the line in order to help make this country a better place. I see very little agitation at all on race and class issues, however, almost none of it from outsiders.

What I DO see are people pushing ethno- and eco-tourism. I see some academics making a reputation by decrying Brazilian racism. There’s a handful of people dedicated to building a few minor, local liberal initiatives, like teaching favela kids to box as a counterpoint to the multi-billion real drug trade.  

I see no gringos with any understanding of the Brazilian legal system, electoral politics, or constitutional law, however. I see no gringos wishing to acquire this kind of understanding at all. In fact, most of the time I see gringos of any color open their mouths, it’s to decry the very notion that Brazil HAS a working government or constitution.

Like it or not, those were the fields in which activism concretely aided black U.S. Americans. Karenga and his crowd were a loud, messy side-show, occasionally insightful, but manifestly unable to bring REAL change to America’s oppressed multitudes.

So get it right, Adrian. I’m not accusing certain diasporists of being outside agitators: I’m accusing them of being ineffective rebels, of not being revolutionaries, of offering inoperative solutions to relatively minor problems while helping direct attention away from the real meat-and-potatoes issues that affect millions of poor and black Brazilians. I’m accusing certain people of worrying about the goddamned frosting when they haven’t even got a cake. And I’m accusing “the Movement” (or whatever euphemism you’d like to put behind your royal “we”) of having lost control of the one game that should concern you most, the fight against anti-racism in the U.S., while you lecture Brazilians on how to run their affairs.

Agitators? I’d love to see an American equivalent of the freedom riders come on down to Brazil. Such devotion and commitment would be a refreshing change. Instead, Brazil gets to host post-modern Amos and Andy purveyors who aid in the construction of an endless stream of media-friendly “black” cultural artifacts to feed the global market’s maw.

If this is “agitation”, then Bull Connor can rest easy in hell.


Re: your point five. My point is that "pride" won't feed you. It's a good thing to have, undoubtedly, but the many ills so many have cited here - lack of housing, education, employment and health care in Brazil - will not be solved by pride.

Furthermore, having lived in many afro-brazilian communities, I wonder where you're getting this idea that Black Brazilians feel humble and inferior?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:06 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Whoops. That should be the "fight against racism" or the "anti-racist fight" in that last post. Not the "fight against anti-racism". Though come to think of it, the U.S. fight against anti-racism should also concern Adrianerik and his pals.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:14 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
ELEGANTGENT



Junior Member
   
Darren, i could not have said it better myself.

Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:13 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
BLACKS IN BRAZIL MAY NOT SEE THEMSELVES AS BLACK BUT IF THEY COME TO AMERICA THEY WILL GET A MAJOR REALITY CHECK CAUSE NOBODY IN AMERICA IS GONNA SEE THEM AS WHITES OR MORENOS LIKE BACK IN THEIR COUNTRY ITS A WHOLE ANOTHER BALLGAME HERE

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:53 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
Good for them that they don't come né?

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:28 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Thanks for telling us the extremely obvious, MArques.

In the future, the merely obvious will do.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:45 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
You've introduced another topic.  The original point was not how big or massive various social activist thrusts are.  You had placed a definitive parameter on what that involvement should be and what it should not be.  That is what I replied to and you gave examples with which I disagreed.

My friends have been intimately involved in Cuba, South Africa and Haiti (I helped there) and Australia.  It is our own time, our own money, except for South Africa (that was an initiative of the American Friends Service Committee). At the same time lawsuits on behalf of Black Farmers were filed against the Farm Bureau (and won), against Denny's (and won), against Marriott (and won).  The point being that we are perfectly capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.

The topic also was not a referendum on Karenga.  The 'movement' is a tapestry.  We are a diverse people...not lemmings led by one super black god.  Karenga offered what he offered.  We are very good at chewing the meat and spitting out the bones.  But we will not get into the game of dissing this or the other because they are not pleasing to some outside agenda.

There are over 2000 national black organizations across this country.  It's been known a long time ago that there is a weakness in being psychologically attached to one charismatic leader.  There is enough expertise in the various communities to create, develop leadership and pursue their own agendas.  The organizations help to share experiences, shorten learning curves and give leverage when necessary.

The Movement are the thousands of little courageous groups and peoples tutoring and sweeping schools and taking in orphaned kids in South Carolina, taking people to court, saying 'no' when necessary, saying 'yes' when necessary...motivated by the knowledge that they are not alone but part of others who have resisted....in the words of the Cultural Nationalists....."expose, accuse, attack and present viable alternatives".

Same as Brazil.

And this forum is about Brazil....not African-Americans.

That is why the agendas and the parameters of their activism will not be set by your 'WE' or my 'WE'.  Any outsider serves the direction of an organized community.  Any so-called politico in Brazil needs to know that the problems in Brazil do not emanate from the ground....or the trees....or the water....but from people.  And before this "we" dictates what the shape of activism in Brazil will be they also have to be more than holders of a Brazilian birth certificate and make the term 'Brazilian Solutions' more than an oxymoron.

I have no doubt that there are shysters and hustlers and poverty pimps in Brazil.  That neither was the topic.  We had (have) them also.  You slap flies and mosquitoes when they get annoying.  But the agenda for social activism should not have as its main priority chasing flies and mosquitoes.

I've been approached by several folks wanting to increase ethno and eco tourism.  That's not my bag.  But I've seen several motives.  Some only see American dollar signs.  But there are others who see the young european couples (boy and girl) who have no interest in sexual trysts but backpackt through the countryside and others see the older African-Americans (mostly women) who, in the words of the auther of Cream to Coal "don't see Baianas but tired black women trying to survive...same as their mothers and grandmothers".

Everything can be leveraged if there is an agenda.

The effort at boxing is admirable.  It is pragmatic but as Maya Angelou says "you do the best that you can given the knowledge and resources available at the time".

A Black Consciousness movement is more than pride.  And that is why it remains viciously attacked anywhere the ideology of white supremacy and the supremacy of western civilization is the dominant 'ism'.  Why the Mormon Church waltzes into Brazil, with its doctrine that the violent Cain after killing Abel was cursed and turned black and there is no Brazilian outcry but native born Brazilians are labeled as divisive because they embrace the heritage of their formerly enslaved grandmother.  Black Consciousness attacks the false worldview of history codified in racist churches, in false history books.  The whitewashing of history (a-la Rudyard Kipling's THE WHITE MANS BURDEN).  It scares whites who, deep in ther heart, rests upon the acceptance of white privlege (my spelling), who speak one way, but would not know what to do when the psychic foundation of false white history is peeled away and they are forced to be (oh-my-god!) normal human beings, products of a civilization that has done some good things, some bad things...some better than others...some worse than others.

In Cuba Afro-Cubans have education, housing and jobs but, even in a Socialist System, they are relegated to the bottom.  Afro-Cuban music struggles to survive.  The Socialist leaders prefer 'light' Cubans to work in the preferred businesses.  It is the blacks and browns and tans selling their bodies to the same Europeans who can't afford a ticket to Brazil.  

The point being that a people without a connection to themselves, not some sports/entertainment/big-butt connection but a sense of peoplehood that is greater than some political or economic system....then that people are just well-cared for slaves.

One of these days I'll introduce you to a few of the others.  Not a movement.  Just a few folks agitating.  The others came from the States but they went to the forum in Porto Alegre.  

Peace

Actually....Macunaima - I'd prefer you to 90% of the white americans i've met.  We're pulling on the same rope....same direction....your rhythm is just 1/3...and mine is 2/4.    (scientific fact)  


Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:16 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
ELEGANTGENT



Junior Member
   
macuaniama, adrianerik, you both have valid points, but it appears that you both are letting personal feelings and opinions support your post. you both have great information. basically, there is difference somewhat between brazil and america and there is also some simuliarities. very broad span, no generalizing. in my opinion.

brazil always was a country of the future.

Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:38 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
THERE IS A SAYING HERE THAT US AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE AND THAT IS THE BLACKER THE BERRY THE SWEETER THE JUICE AND HERE IS ANOTHER ONE SAY IT LOUD I AM BLACK AND I AM PROUD SEE WE DONT DENY WHO WE ARE UNLIKE BLACK BRAZILIANS.THE CARIBBEAN IS ALSO VERY AFROCENTRIC TOO CAUSE THEY ARE PROUD OF WHO THEY ARE.WITHOUT BLACKS THERE WOULD BE NO CARIBBEAN CULTURE OR MUSIC AND THE SAME THANG FOR HERE IN THE U.S US BLACKS INVENTED THE BEST GENRES OF MUSIC LIKE JAZZ,R&B,AND HIP HOP.AND THE CARIBBEAN BLACKS INVENTED REGGAE AND THE AFRO CUBANS INVENTED ROMBA.AFRO CUBANS ARE PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST IF NOT THE MOST PRO BLACKS IN ALL OF LATIN AMERICA.I REMEMBER CASTRO SENT OVER 20,000 CUBAN SOLDIERS TO ANGOLA TO TRY TO HELP STOP THE WAR OVER THERE YOU KNOW WHY BECAUSE THE BLOOD OF AFRICA RUNS DEEP THROUGH THE ISLANDS OF CUBA AND THE REST OF THE CARIBBEAN.IMPORTANT BLACK LEADERS LIKE MALCOLM X EVEN VISITED CUBA BEFORE AND ANOTHER THING TOO WITHOUT BLACK CUBANS THERE WOULD BE NO CUBAN SPORTS FOR EXAMPLE LOOK AT THE CUBAN VOLLEYBALL TEAM MALE AND FEMALE THEY ARE ALL BLACK AND THEY WIN ALOT OF MEDALS WHETHER IT BE IN THE OLYMPICS OR THE PAN AMERICAN GAMES.I ALSO READ IN AN ARTICLE ONCE THAT CUBA HAS THE SECOND HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF BLACK DOCTORS SECOND ONLY TO THE U.S NOW THATS SAYING SOMETHING IF BILL CLINTON WAS THE U.S'S QUOTE "FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT" AS MANY AFRICAN AMERICANS JOKE ABOUT THEN I WOULD SAY FIDEL CASTRO IS CUBA'S "FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT" BECAUSE BEFORE CASTRO CAME ALONG AFRO CUBANS HAD IT REALLY BADLY

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:06 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
ELEGANTGENT



Junior Member
   
markeasy, don't know about that. castro and bubba are an insult to all humanity. also
question:
cuba, stop the war in angola?

Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:20 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
I REMEMBER FORMER BLACK PANTHER AFENI SHAKUR LIVED IN CUBA BUT I DONT KNOW IF SHE STILL DOES THOUGH

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:10 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
God, Marquesleazy, you are your own worst parody.

Adrianerik, THIS is the black consciousness you're on about? American imperial arrogance and hallielujahs to black consumer T.V.? Wow, what an advance in human thought we're missing out on down here...

"You've introduced another topic.  The original point was not how big or massive various social activist thrusts are.  You had placed a definitive parameter on what that involvement should be and what it should not be."

Excuse me, but what definitive parameter are you talking about? I merely criticized certain trends I've noticed coming out of Salvador. That's hardly a definitive parameter. I suggested that internationals supporting this stuff have some deeper thinking to do. That's hardly a definitive parameter. And finally, I pointed out that cultural initiatives, while nice, have a piss-poor record of building lasting change if not tied to real political and economic power. That most definitely is not laying down a definitive parameter.

So what exactly are you talking about? I don't know about where you come from, Adrian, but where I'm sitting, this sort of slick rhettorical move you've just made is what gets you trashed at conferences.

"At the same time lawsuits on behalf of Black Farmers were filed against the Farm Bureau (and won), against Denny's (and won), against Marriott (and won).  The point being that we are perfectly capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time."

Which is why, of course, things are going so well for blacks in the U.S. Are you folks so capable in Brazil, I wonder? What legal initiatives are you backing here? Do you have lawyers on call? Can you provide legal support to Brazilians looking to get legislation passed? Can you folks even READ a legal document in Portuguese?

"Karenga offered what he offered.  We are very good at chewing the meat and spitting out the bones.  But we will not get into the game of dissing this or the other because they are not pleasing to some outside agenda."

I just found it ironic that you were supporting even part of the social agenda of a man responsible for the death of other black activists. The only meat and bone I've heard of Karenga chewing was that belonging to Bunchy Carter and Jon Huggins. But I suppose the Black Panthers were part of that "outside agenda" you're talking about...

"There are over 2000 national black organizations across this country."

Then what's this royal "we" stuff that comes out of your mouth everytime you talk about American blacks? Again, you call me imprecise and overly vague?

"And this forum is about Brazil....not African-Americans."

Excuse me, but didn't you just make a claim in your last post that it's the same shit everywhere? Why the sudden 180 degree turn?

"That is why the agendas and the parameters of their activism will not be set by your 'WE' or my 'WE'."

My "we" is simply the Brazilian polis, the citizens of Brazil. You can bet your Afro-Reggae commemorative poster that the agendas and parameters of Brazilian activism will be set by my "we". What your "we" is doing, other than buying tickets to party in Salvador or Porto Alegre, I have no idea. What little I've seen doesn't impress me. Perhaps I'm ignorant. Show me I'm wrong! It seems that the only time "we" can get "you" to work with us on issues is when there's a party involved. Lots of gringos at Porto Alegre right now. How many of them do you think will stay on in Brazil after Carnaval?

"I have no doubt that there are shysters and hustlers and poverty pimps in Brazil.  That neither was the topic.  We had (have) them also.  You slap flies and mosquitoes when they get annoying. "

They're getting out of control and here in the tropics, they carry disease. Only a Northerner would rate mosquitoes and flies as a nuisance. If you'd ever had to suffer through dengue, you'd never choose such an unfortunate (or perhaps serendipitous) metaphor.

"But the agenda for social activism should not have as its main priority chasing flies and mosquitoes."

Which, despite the annoyance, isn't what I'm proposing. Out of the six or seven things I've had to say about race in Brazil, only one - my wariness of the whole Salavador afro hype scene - got your nose out of joint and we've been arguing about that ever since. I stand by my original staement: Salvador doesn't impress me. If you don't like that, fine, but that's hardly a call for an anti-Bahian crusade on my part.

"Everything can be leveraged if there is an agenda."

No kidding. I just wish certain diasporists would be just a wee bit more honest with themselves and others about what their agendas in Brazil might be. What's yours?

"The effort at boxing is admirable."

No it isn't. It's fucking ridiculous. The CV is laughing their asses off at these people. Kids aren't getting involved with drugs because they lack excitement, they're doing it because it's a real, concrete job opportunity that pays better than ANYTHING else they are liable to get. To the degree that this program convinces people that "something is being done" about drugs in the favela, it detracts from real solutions. we can do muchj better work than this with what we've got, if we just had the balls to be honest with ourselves as to what's going on. They'd be better off taking all the program's cash and simply handing it out on the hill.

But hey: it gives a few American liberals something to put on their resumes when they leave here for their next career move, so I guess it's all worthwhile.

Re: white fear of black consciousness. Only someone who's never really sat down and chatted with hardcore racists face to face would make a statement like that. Sorry to bust your lil' red, black and green bubble, but none of the white racists I grew up with give a flying fuck about "Black Consciousness" one way or another. They probably couldn't even pronounce the words and they certainly don't know who the hell Kipling was. Fear is not what's motivating them: bone deep ignorance and self-loathing is what moves Bubba and you shouldn't be kidding yourself that it's anything but.

Re: Kipling's WHITE MAN"S BURDEN, the most ironic thing about it is that many diasporists seem to be engaged in a post-modern version of it, bringing light, happiness and civilization to the ignorant, humble, underdeveloped (or whatever adjective you favor) natives overseas. Kipling's poem talks about the "noble" sacrifice "civilized" men must make to uplift their less-fortunate brethern in far-off pagan lands. I'd like to think that you have more capacity for self-critique than this, but a civilizing mission is certainly what Marqueseazy is all about and he seems to be a fellow traveller of yours. MarqueMarque here considers himself to be a proponent of "black consciousness" and I have rarely seen such an extreme example of imperial chauvinism. WHITE MAN"s BURDEN, indeed...

Re: Brazil and outside agitators. You've made several of these rather generic yelps that you're being criticized by anonymous Brazilians who see you as being a dangerous outside agitators Would you care to supply us here with the names of these gentlepeople? I hear a lot about them, but I see very, very few folks with the viewpoint you describe. If it's such a common syndrome, then surely you can provide me with the names of at leats three Brazilians who are currently opposing your work in this fashion.

As for the Brazilian government's relation to the Mormons, having seen what's been going on in mission law makes me believe that you simply don't know what you're talking about. The Mormons and every North American missionary church are seen in very bad light in Brasilia and the Ministério dos Estrangeiros is up the Later Day Saints' gringo asses in a very big way. It is not at all easy for them to get visas and permission to prosletyze doiwn here, despite what your friends in Salvador might think.

"The point being that a people without a connection to themselves, not some sports/entertainment/big-butt connection but a sense of peoplehood that is greater than some political or economic system....then that people are just well-cared for slaves."

Again, I ask you: who is this "we", this "people"  you're talking about? You're postulating a "people" that simply doesn't exist on ground level in Brazil and - I daresay - in the States. There's no "there" there except in theory! Are my friend's white and Indian relatives part of her "people", or do youn think she should cut them off so that you North Americans can feel more comfortable about an arbitrary color line draw during the closing days of U.S. slavery?

"Actually....Macunaima - I'd prefer you to 90% of the white americans i've met.  We're pulling on the same rope....same direction....your rhythm is just 1/3...and mine is 2/4.    (scientific fact)."

Actually, Adrianerik, I'm more of speed-metal thrasher or a samba and choro man, myself. The waltz just doesn't do it for me. Scientific fact. And if you think that European music is limited to 1/3 time, you need to rethink some of your history. There's nothing scientific at all about your belief nor are your ideologies "African" as opposed to my supposedly "European" ones. You're too smart a guy to be repeating this namby-pamby "my sacred people" shit without realizing where its philosophical roots come from. I'll give you a hint: it ain't Africa.

As for whether you like me more than other white people, well... I'll let you in on a little secret. Having grown up redneck, I'm a HELL of a lot more afraid of the Bubbas of this world and their Yuppie allies than I am of any passel of angry black activists. I'm not in this for my academic career, or to be seen as a nice liberal white guy by black folks, so I have no need to be politically correct or mealy-mouthed. And I'm informed enough about my own history to realize that racist theories were applied to white folks like me long before they were applied to blacks. Or do you really believe that the Powers That Be in this world consider all white people to be the same type? That's the kind of trash they may hand out to their Klan thugs, but it's not what they talk about among friends at the country club. I'm always suprised when I hear black people passing this kind of nazi propaganda back to me as if it were God's millenial wisdom.

"Listen to your own people first...", indeed. Who are my people Adrian, have you ever considered that? When you say trash like that, I hear the racists of my youth in black voice. That's the philosophy of social darwinism, your spouting there, Adrian, not the wisdom of seven genreations of black grandmas. Even ignerint trailer trash like me can recognize that. Pretty scary that you seem to think it's such hot shit.


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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:17 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
That's Assata Shakur, Sleazy. Get your fuckin' history right.

Shit. Kid claims he's into black consiousness and can't even remember his ancetor's names.

Sad.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:19 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
Guest



Anonymous
   
Gawd this is boring. Aren't some of you tired of the books you've written on this topic? Some of you need a podium or something.

. . .still waiting to hear the thoughts of a Black Brasilian, like first hand experience from them.

No offense but yawn to all this Black and White American redderick.

Can we somehow steer this topic back to the original question? I know I don't have to read, but I am trying to learn, the rest I don't care about personally and since some of you just want to go on and on and on and on and on off topic. Well it's just kinda a bore. I'm not trying to be offensive. It's just that if I wanted to learn about Black and White issues, I'd go go a board that caters to that, it's like who bought America into the topic. I felt the original question was pretty specific.

Well carry on. I'm sure you will no matter.

God Speed.

(Edited by Guest at 7:26 pm on Feb. 4, 2003)

Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:07 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
Adam


Junior Member
   
obrigado

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Tchau

Total Posts: 64 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:55 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
You still have faith that one "afro-brazilian" will care to enter this forum, and then answer your question in the middle of this warzone? Hop into the shadows and have fun, it is hard to find such an interesting discussion nowadays.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:07 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
GOOD LUCK IN FINDING A BLACK BRAZILIAN FOR THIS FORUM ODDS ARE IF YOU FIND ONE  HE OR SHE PROBABLY WOULDNT CONSIDER HIM OR HERSELF BLACK ANYWAYS THEY WOULD PROBABLY CONSIDER THEMSLEVES BRANCO OR MORENO,MULATTO,MESTIZO ANYTHANG BUT BLACK.ATLEAST US AFRICAN AMERICANS DONT HAVE AN IDENTITY CRISIS WE KNOW VERY WELL WHO WE ARE THATS WHY YOU CAN NEVER REALLY HAVE BLACK MOVEMENTS IN BRAZIL SINCE MOST BLACK BRAZILIANS DONT EVEN SEE THEMSELVES AS BLACK ONLY 6% DO THE OTHER 45% SURE AS HELL DONT.IN AMERICA WE DONT HAVE THIS MULATTO CRAP ALL OF US AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE BLACK WE DONT TURN OUR BACKS ON OUR AFRICAN ANCESTORS LIKE BLACK BRAZILIANS DO.AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE BLACK REGARDLESS IF WE'RE LIGHTSKINNED OR DARKSKINNED BUT WE STILL BLACK TO SAY OTHERWISE IS RIDICULOUS.THE SAME THANG WITH BLACK CARIBBEANS THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE AND BLACK BRAZILIANS ARE THE ONLY BLACKS IN THE WORLD WITH A SERIOUS IDENTITY CRISIS I BET NEXT TIME BRAZIL HAS A CENSUS INSTEAD OF 6% OF BRAZILIANS SEEING THEMSELVES AS BLACK IT WILL PROBABLY BE 1% WHILE THE OTHER 5% WILL BE WHITEWASHED INTO THINKING THEY ARE SOMETHING ELSE

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:33 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Hey MarqueMarque!

Stopped beating your wife yet?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:17 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
To get back to the original topic, I'd rather be Black and rich in Brazil than white and poor by a loooooong fuckin' country mile.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:25 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
DONT YOU MEAN RICH AND MORENO REMEMBER SINCE MOST BLACKS IN BRAZIL DONT SEE THEMSELVES AS BLACKS CAUSE THEY IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS BEING MORENOS.BRAZIL SHOULD START A MORENO CONSCIOUS MOVEMENT,MET MORENO ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION,AND THE MORENO PANTHERS LOL BRAZIL A MORENO DEMOCRACY VERY MORENOCENTRIC AINT IT LOL

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:49 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
SO IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT SALVADOR AINT REALLY PREDOMINANTLY BLACK SALVADOR IS REALLY PREDOMINANTLY MORENO SO I GUESS PELE,BENEDITA DA SILVA,MILTON NASCIMENTO,AND THE CAST OF THE MOVIE CITY OF GOD ARE REALLY ALL MORENOS RIGHT SINCE FROM YOUR BRAZILIAN PEOPLE'S DEFINITION OF RACE THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT THEY COULD POSSIBLY BE BLACK RIGHT I MEAN GOD FORBID IF ANY OF THESE MORENOS ARE CALLED BLACK LOL

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:01 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Next time I talk to Bené or Ivanir de Santos, I'll say that according to some BET fan in San Francisco, they don't exist as rich, powerful self-identified black Brazilians.

That should be good for a laugh.

Now don't you have some gyrating moreno butts to go jack off to, MarqueMarque?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:37 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Guest



Anonymous
   
I'm at another computer.  I don't want to go cut and paste and show the path and context of your comments.   Rhetorical change?  Interesting.  

I'm not complaining.  Any of our efforts have not been rejected by anyone.  Where did that come from?

A final point......The battle between US and the Panthers was as a result of the letters planted by the operations of COINTELPRO to foster a battle between them.  (info available de-classified documents).

Our lesson today is their inability to have established communications between themselves.

That's all.

Ta-ta!

ps - I have met many of your racists face to face.  I'm from South Carolina.  I have three cousins in the ground because of them.

Racism is more than 'yahoos' with 2 by 4s in South Carolina.  You know that.

Adrianerik

Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:29 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
"I'm not complaining.  Any of our efforts have not been rejected by anyone.  Where did that come from? "

I haven't the slightest notion of what you are talking about.

The US/Panther split existed long before COINTELPRO used letters to intensify it. Though the FBI is certainly as much to blame as Karenga, it was he who went ahead and ordered the killings and the blood of Huggins and Carter ultimately can't be washed off his hands by bleatings that "The FBI made me do it!" If Karenga was that gullible that a poorly conceived and executed COINTELPRO would induce him to kill fellow black nationalist activists, then he wasn't playing with a full deck anyhow. Everything I've seen about the man indicates that he's learned nothing since.

"I have met many of your racists face to face.  I'm from South Carolina.  I have three cousins in the ground because of them."

I have two good friends who are dead because of white siupremacists, too, so please don't call them "my" racists. And though racism is certainly more than the Klan and affiliated baboons, my point was never that it wasn't. My point was, simply, that racists aren't "afraid" of black consciousness, as you claimed. Would that they were. They are by-and-large motivated by the same "my sacred people" feelings as yourself. Surely YOU know that.




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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:06 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Theory, Practice and Race in Brazil and the U.S.

The debate here on whether or not Brazilians of African descent consider themselves to be “Black” – though brought up by the ever ignorant Marquesleazy – sheds some light on differences between race in Brazil and the U.S.

As the founder of modern ethnography, Branislaw Malinoswki, pointed out close to a century ago, the actual functioning of any human community is generally not congruent with the way its members SAY it should function. Malinowski identified the two sides of this split as “theory” and “practice” and showed that, whatever the theory was about a given social phenomenon, practice was usually quite different.

Race in Brazil and the U.S., while working, practically, in very similar ways is seen from very different theoretical underpinnings.

Americans, theoretically, believe in hypodescendency, the idea that one drop of “black blood” makes one black. Brazilians, again theoretically, believe in a range of human colors stretching from black to white with a wide mestiço ground in the middle.

In life as it’s lived, however, both systems recognized a bilateral division between white/not white AND a hierarchically organized color-graded scheme.

While Americans love painting the world in black and white, no shade of gray needed or wanted, even a short jaunt to the States will show anyone that the lighter a black person is, the better off he or she is liable to be. The vast majority of America’s “black” elite probably wouldn’t call itself black or be called such in Brazil. Many, in fact, would and do say they are white. “Passing”, as I’ve mentioned above, is a very American phenomenon in which a light-skinned Black person reinvents himself or herself socially as white. So it’s completely incorrect to say that the U.S. is a nation divided between blacks and whites and that color counts for nothing. Obviously, it does. When was the last time you saw a very black man who was not a sports star or musical celebrity on U.S. T.V.?

Brazil, on the other hand, likes to think it’s escaped this neat black/white duality. In reality, however, there is a divide between white and not white that’s as radical in practice as it is in the States. Though Brazilians like to portray themselves as “mestiços”, when push comes to shove, it’s always the person that’s one tone darker than the one talking that’s “really” black.

Now the funny thing about all this is that Brazilianists of all nationalities and colors waste tons of ink debating the theoretical side of things but rarely, if ever, look into how race practically works in Brazil. When we get down into the nitty-gritty daily life, we find that racial accusations, labels and epithets are all CONDITIONAL. The person who proudly claims African heritage for herself today will be trashing on someone else’s “nappy” hair tomorrow. Is this really all that different from the way things work in the U.S.?

50 years ago, Oracy Nogueira said that if we were really interested in looking at racism in Brazil, we should perhaps study Black Americans own racial prejudice. This would give us a better model for the way things work in Brazil than looking at white American race prejudice.


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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:22 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
BRAZIL IS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHERE PEOPLE REFER THIS MULATTO CRAP THE U.S,THE CARIBBEAN,AND AFRICA DONT CERTAINLY DONT PRACTICE THIS THANK GOD CAN YOU IMAGINE FOR EXAMPLE IF BOB MARLEY CALLED HIMSLEF A MESTICO THEN ONE OF HIS FRIENDS WOULD SAY WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MON YOUR BLACK WHAT THE HELL IS A MESTICO YOU BE SMOKING THAT GANJA AGAIN MON LOL.EVEN THOUGH BOB MARLEY WAS HALF WHITE HE STILL DECLARED HIMSELF BLACK BECAUSE HE IS NOT GONNA TURN HIS BACK ON HIS AFRICAN ANCESTORS NOW THATS AFROCENTRIC FOR YOU.BRAZIL CAN NEVER CAN TO BE AFROCENTRIC WHEN ITS PEOPLE DENY THEIR AFRICAN BLOOD YOU CANT HAVE AN AFROCENTRIC SOCIETY IF THE PEOPLE ARE ASHAMED TO ASSUME THEY ARE BLACK BRAZIL IS FAR FROM A PRO BLACK SOCIETY BRAZIL SHOULD LEARN A FEW LESSONS FROM THE U.S,CUBA,JAMAICA,THE BAHAMAS,AND EVEN THEIR NORTHERN NEIGHBORS WITH A PREDOMINANTLY BLACK POPULATION THAT BEING THE GUYANAS

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:11 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
JAMAICANS ARE ALSO ANOTHER PROUD GROUP OF BLACK FOLKS AND THEY ACTUALLY HAVE THEIR OWN AIRLINES AIR JAMAICA ITS GOOD TO SEE MY PEOPLE DOING THINGS AND FOR ONCE THE PILOT WAS BLACK AND SO WERE ALL STEWERDESS THERE SHOULD BE MORE BLACK OWNED AIRLINES LIKE AIR JAMAICA

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:20 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Loco


Newbie
   

Brazilians see the diferents races as the way that we want, will not be americans who are going to teach us what is black and what is white.

When some north american say to me that brazilians are murders because are killing indians I think funny...its the old american hipocrysy....

US its one of the most racist countries of the world, the only diference is that you have many blacks living better there  than in others countries.




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SEI LÁ

Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:29 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Actually, according to my friend Beto who worked in Jamaica for several years, "mulato" is also a race category there. he was always called a "brown man" by the locals, never a "black man", though North americans unhesitatingly label him black.

I wouldn't say that a person who calls themselves a mulato is necessarily turning his or her back on anything. I think s/he has the right to look to all their "peoples" if they want to.

Y'know, it's funny Marquesleazy: neither you nor Adrianerik have answered the question I posed two or three times now.

My friend Silvia is a self-described Black Brazilian who's also working on her doctorate at my school. She's been watching this debate develop with great interest but has not, as of yet, decided to enter it.

Her one question - after showing me the pictures of her family - is this:

"These two black guys there go on and on about 'their people' and how I'm supposed to be part of it, but they probably don't even speak my language. This Marqueseazy guy looks to be a real idiot who knows nothing about Brazil. Adrian seems smarter, but I still wonder what basis he thinks he has for calling me 'sister'? Here's my grandfather: Portuguese. Here's my other grandmother: Indian. I have no problems calling myself Black and being happy and proud of who I am. But listening to these two guys' arguments, I should, based on the color of my skin, cut real life family out of my definition of 'my people' in order to close ranks with black gringos? Why would I consider Marqueseazy to be 'my people' over, say, my white cousin, when Marqueseazy can't even show the smallest degree of respect for my country? Who the hell does he think he's talking to, anyhow?"

So that's a brief transcription of her rant. Maybe I can convince her to come on here and rap with y'all in Portuguese later.

Before that, though, how about showing some respect and attempting to answer her question, folks? To whit: why should Silvia cut family out of "her people" to close ranks with folks like Marqueseazy whose chauvinism against Brazil and Brazilians is - judging from his posts here - immense? why is Marques "her people" but her Portuguese granddaddy not?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:47 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Face it guys: you're hypodescendists. That's fine. but implying that that is the only way that one can look at the world is pure bullshit chauvinism, as well as being a great example of that "either/or" binary mentality that Adrianerik classifies as "European".

Funny. You want to be afro-centric, but the most non-African thing imaginable - binary division of humans based on skin color - is the one rock-solid given that underlies your philosophy.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:00 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Guest



Anonymous
   
Obrigado Loco!!!!

I'd like to hear from your Black Brasilian friends Macunaima, under their name of course. Damn I am keeping a vigil for Black Brasilians and this topic.

Can I suggest a message board that this whole race in America topic should go? There are a ton of websites that cater to this.

Hey Ze sadly I am wishing for that answer.


Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:55 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
DONT HOLD YOUR BREATH WHY DONT YOU JUST SETTLE FOR A MESTICO BRAZILIAN CAUSE FINDING A BRAZILIAN WHO IDENTIFYS HIMSELF AS BLACK IS ABOUT AS RARE AS SEEING A WHITE CUBAN VOLLEYBALL PLAYER LOL

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:39 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
HERE'S ANOTHER ONE FINDING A BRAZILIAN WHO IDENTIFYS HIMSELF AS BLACK IS ABOUT AS RARE AS A WHITE PERSON LIVING IN THE MIDDLE OF 110TH STREET IN HARLEM LOL

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:44 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Guest



Anonymous
   
Marqueseazy, I have concluded that all you do is speak out of your ass. I have also concluded that you will say anything to get a rise out of the posters on this board. Why because you make some of the most uninformed and ignorant comments I have ever read.

I live in Harlem, white people live on 110th Street, from Broadway to CPW, to Amsterdam etc. You clearly have never heard of Columbia University which is at 116th and Broadway (not to mention the University extends higher and lower than that) oh yeah it's an Ivy League University.It happens to sit right in the downtown version of Harlem. Lots and lots of white students, professors, and regular working folks live in and around the area. In fact my favourite eateries are in that area. Not to mention it's a nice part of the city. There are all sorts of affluent people living in that area, and not just white, but the majority are white. So where you getting this information is beyound me, it certainly doesn't seem you've ever visited the area, or even Harlem.

Man what sickness. Why don't you take your Brazil hating ass to some other board, you are truly making us Black folk look bad, as well as just about all Americans. Come on man lay off the 40's ounces and spliffs, from one Black man to you. Damn man you set us back with this misinformation.

I wonder if some beautiful Brazilian woman rejected your ass, must've been something or your just one of those internet stalkers or no-lifers. Man get an education already, pick-up a book, turn on CNN why don't you. Can somebody throw him a vowel, better yet a clue and a book.

Darren.

Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 6:25 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
Doggone it!  After a long post...my computer crashed.

Must be telling me to go to bed.

Lay-tah!


ps - Macunaima...tell your friend that she can call herself whatever she wants.  Why do you ask me that question? You are the anthropologist.  You know that race (a falsity), ethnicity (quite real), national identity (always changing..constant state of flux....rarely has mores), social identity (concrete but usually biased) are much more complicated than who your grandmother or grandfather was.

But if she chooses a label that is infected with the color-caste-system that Brazil has modified from 433 to....what is it is now....about 13 with a sense of higher or lower.....and does not fight to change it because an accident of genes makes her 'safe' than she does a disservice to her indian, portuguese and african blood.

I have never weighed in on what Brazil hopes to be.

Back at cha!  Particularly on your partial description of the lessons of Black Nationalist/BlackPanthers/Nation of Islam/Pan-African milieu.

Not to mention the SCLC/NAACP split.

There were no gods.....just humans.  

And blame all around.  

There is a difference between the natural rivalry between the Nationalists and the Socialists that existed across the board and the conflagration that erupted on the East Coast.

I'm out.

ps - you woke up on the wrong side of the bed on an earlier post.  I'll respond to that.



Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:47 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
THIS IS FOR THE GUEST WHY YOU ON BRAZILIAN PEOPLE'S NUTTZ NIGGA THEY JUST A BUNCH OF UNCLE TOMS AND I SEE YOU ARE ONE TOO HOW CAN YOU DEFEND A COUNTRY WHERE 95% OF THE BLACKS DONT EVEN IDENTIFY AS SUCH WHY DONT YOU TAKE YOUR BITCH ASS TO BRAZIL AND CHANGE YOUR IDENTITY FROM BLACK TO MULATTO CAUSE THATS WHAT THEY ARE GONNA CALL YOU DOWN THERE YOU WANNA BE KNOWN AS A FUCKIN MULE GO AHEAD.

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:05 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
TO ME BRAZIL IS THE MOST RACIST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD ITS  THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TODAY WHERE BLACKS ARE STILL MAIDS,BUTLERS,AND NANNYS TO RICH WHITE FAMILIES REMINDS ME OF SLAVERY DAYS ITS 2003 BUT BRAZIL STILL GOT ITS HEAD IN THE COTTON FIELDS AND PLANTATIONS.BRAZILIAN BLACKS STILL GOT THAT YES MASTER MENTALITY

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:15 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Guest



Anonymous
   
Damn my system crashed too haha. Must be a bug in the system.

Marqueseazy, my name is Darren, which is at the bottom of my posts. I promise to register soon so you can keep-up.

I also doubt that any Brazilian would call me a mulatto man I look like Miles Davis and I love it. I love the  skin I'm in and so do women.

I won't even touch that cursing your doing, because again you are the ignoramous not me.

But may I suggest a new hobby for you? One that doesn't involve this message board or even Brazil. I'd like to see you go to Brazil with this bullshit, you'd get your ass kicked for sho'. Get it together sleazy no one is listening anymore.

Oh and I love Brazil. My beautiful woman, mother of my child is Brazilian and she's a German Brazilian how you like them apples, we have a beautiful brown son haha. I know that shit eats you up haha.

Oh and there are several Black American nannies, maids, cleaning ladies, right here in America. We won't go back to the history lesson I gave you on the baffonary of some of our people man. You need to be honest, we are not saints in this perpetual game of stereotypes and we damn sure ain't free of racism within the black community and in America so kill the long-winded, ill-informed speeches. The fat lady is singing all over you, wake-up man and reach for a book while your at it. Me saying all of this doesn't mean I don't love being Black in fact it means I'm honest about our conditions WHICH ARE NOT THE SAME AS BLACK BRAZILIANS. OUR RACIAL ISSUES IN AMERICA ARE NOT THE SAME. Understand that sleazy and get over this hollier than thou bull you keep preaching. America is no rose on race til' this day.

Darren.

(Edited by Guest at 8:05 pm on Feb. 5, 2003)

Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:52 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
AMERICA HAS MANY BLACK OWNED CLOTHING LINES LIKE FUBU WHICH MEANS FOR US BY US AND I CANT FORGET SEAN JOHN'S NOW WHAT ABOUT BRAZIL HMMM?

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:58 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Adrianerik,

Re: US/BPP split, I don't presume that anyone involved were gods. Quite the contrary. I just wonder if an 8th candle shouldn't be lit at Kwanza to the memories of Jon and Bunchy. It seems to me the least one could do, but that's just me. I'm rather persnickety about looking into where the traditions I pick up come from, especially when they are spiritual.

I'm more of an eclectic christian pagan myself, but I'm not so sure I'd be wanting to mess with any tradition someone like Karenga invented in the same way that I keep my hands off of anything Alestier Crowley made up. One can say that the ritual and the inventor are separate, I suppose, but I personally believe that karma sticks like tar to that kind of stuff.

Re: Silvia's activism... I think what we have here in Brazil is a mentality that is much more comfortable with apparent contradictions than the North American one. Silvia chooses to define herself as Black and is an anti-racist activist. From that, it doesn't logically follow for her that "her people" includes anyone with a drop of "african blood" anywhere the world over. Ethnic identity, as you well know, comes in many forms and degrees of openess, tolerance and inclusion.

Looking over my comment on race and class the other day, this is what she had to say:

"More important than your class or color in this country is WHO YOU KNOW. Look at X, a black woman. But she married the right guy, comes from a shabby genteel but very well-connected family and LOOK at how scholarships rain down upon her. Look how many job offers she gets. Then look at you: you're a white guy and pretty well educated, right? But as an immigrant, nobody KNOWS you. You have to struggle for even a third of the stuff x gets. And then there's me: I have the same schooling as X and was, in fact, a better student when we were coming up together. But I'm my familiy's only bread earner and no one would call my folks "influential", so I'm in the same boat as you, struggling for crusts from the high table. Finally, there's Y (a white female friend of ours who just dropped out of the program) who comes from lower middle class roots and gets no support from her husband or family for the "crazy" idea of going for her doctorate. What good did having white skin do her when push came to shove?She needed help from the right people but, being an unknown, got jack."

Looking at my comment that I'd rather be black and rich over white and poor in Brazil, any day, Silvia sez:

"Ha! You can paint me green and call me a Martian. Just give me a rolodex with the right phone numbers and invitations to the right parties and I'll do fine in Brazil."

Adrianerik sez: "...social identity (concrete but usually biased) are much more complicated than who your grandmother or grandfather was."

Agreed. So how does that tie in with "the wisdom of seven generations of black grandmothers"? Seems to me that Silvia has a pretty damn good notion of who she is and where she's coming from without having to jump on the "my people" bandwagon in order to work against racism. she knows she's black. But she also knows that part of her heritage is Portuguese and she doesn't have a problem with that, either. As she says: "The Portuguese were assholes, but you have to admit, they were tough, smart assholes who knew how to glad-hand everybody. We wouldn't be what we are today if it weren't for them, the good and the bad."

MarqueyMarque:

Er, we never had too many cotton fields in Brazil, Marquey. Sorry. Black slaves planted sugar, coffee and mined here. What cotton picking occured was done by free labor. And yes, while there are plenty of black maids in Brazil, more than should be the case, there also always will be black maids here because its a job and 70 percent of our population IS black (by your standards at least). So if the proof that Brazil isn't racist is that there are no longer any black maids, then we'll be waiting a looooong time for the Jubilee, won't we? And surely you aren't telling me there aren't any black maids in the U.S.? When I was in DC at X-mas, it seemed like every janitor, check out person and security guard I met was black. I don't recall seeing ONE white person in these professions.

As for "Uncle Tom"... Y'know, I've always hated that term. It was turned into an insult by a bunch of fools who never bothered to read "Uncle Tom's Cabin" in the first place. If you had actually read the book instead of mindlessly adopting the term, MarqueyMarque, you would've realized by now that Tom was one smart motherfucker. He was running a station on the underground railroad and NONE of the white slaveholders found out about it because he kept a respecting smile glued to his face. I wonder how many peoples' lives Tom saved with his little shuck-and-jive routine. Smart man. Would that I were as smart. There's a lot worse things in this world that one can be called than "Uncle Tom."

Now, Thomas Driscoll, from Twain's Puddinhead Wilson... THERE'S an unsavory human being for you, whatever color you want to call him. I'd fight anyone who called me a Tom Driscoll. What you should be objecting to are Blacks like him who sell other Blacks down the river, Mistah Marquey, like... well, like your pals over at BET, to tell the truth.

Now, according to MarqueyMarque, Black Entertainment Television is one great advance for Afro-American kind. Having actually watched it, I'm not so sure. 90 percent of what it places on the screen is exactly the kind of programming Brazilian Black anti racists OPPOSE! From long experience, folks here know where the relentless objectification and sexualization of the black female body leads to.

Darren:

So your wife's a teuto-brazilian? Cool! from Santa Catarina or elsewhere? What's her family like? Some of those folks down there can be real biggoted scum. Many are very, very cool though.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:19 am on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
A bit busy.  

Knowing the right people to get you THINGS is different from knowing the right things to make you a person.

Heritage is one thing.  It is what others DID not you.

Legacy is another.  It is a willful respect of the others before you who worked and died specifically for you and a willful committment to accept and continue that legacy.

It determines why we need 'things' in the first place and what we do with 'things'.

It is willful.  A former friend of mine decided NOT to continue the legacy of the Indian (from India) side of her family.  It was a legacy steeped in the caste system and bigoted to the bones.  Her choice.  She breaks from that and focuses on another.

When the essences of heritages and legacies of different people in your ancestry concur wonderful.  Smile with the one group when they celebrate and smile with the other group when they celebrate.  And defend both vicously.

When the heritage and legacy of one is of lies and destructive then be the beginning a blessed generation and cut the destruction.  Chew the meat....spit out the bones.  

All cultures and clans are not ordained by God to last forever.  

Your friend's choice.  But someone poured into her.  She was not cloned.  And someone nurtured the person who nurtured her.  If she has no sense of contribution from her people into what she is (not just two X chromosomes finding each other)  then fine.  

She is 'self-made'.

Heritage accepted implies a legacy evaluated....perpetuated....or cast aside.

Peace

more on the lessons of the Black Power Movement later.
for me it was history lived not history studied.

Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:54 am on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
While I can agree with your bit on "heritage" and "legacy" Adrianerik, rarely do I find this things to be couched in unambiguously black and white terms, physically or metaphorically. Your Indian friend might have found that her particular relatives were bigoted, but I wonder if one could then say that "Indian heritage" is unambiguously bigoted.

"Your friend's choice.  But someone poured into her.  She was not cloned.  And someone nurtured the person who nurtured her.  If she has no sense of contribution from her people into what she is (not just two X chromosomes finding each other)  then fine."  

And it turns out that those people are both white andd black.

NO cultures or clans are ordained by God to last forever.

Re: the Black Power Movement, thinking some more on your comment that Karenga was not God...

"Thou shalt not kill" is hardly a rule for Gods to follow.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:16 am on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
70% BLACK HUH THATS NOT WHAT MY FRIEND SAID WHEN HE WENT TO SAO PAULO HE SAID IT WAS MOSTLY WHITES AND JAPANESE EXPLAIN THAT HUH

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:04 pm on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
NOW WASHINGTON DC ON THE OTHER HAND IS 80% BLACK ITS WHAT US AFRICAN AMERICANS WOULD CALL A CHOCOLATE CITY I KNOW SINCE I HAVE GOT RELATIVES THERE AND I HAVE BEEN THERE AND I KNOW BET IS LOCATED THERE

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:08 pm on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
WHEN MY FRIEND WAS AT GUARULHOS INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT HE SAID HE FELT ALIENATED SINCE HE WAS THE ONLY BLACK PERSON THERE UNTIL HE GOT TO THE CITY AND EVEN THERE HE DIDNT SEE TOO MANY BLACK FACES AND HE SAID EVEN IN SAN FRANCISCO YOU SEE WAY  MORE BLACK FOLKS THEN YOU DO IN SAO PAULO NOW THATS SAYING SOMETHING HE SAID THE ONLY NONWHITE POPULATION THAT YOU DO SEE ALOT IN SAO PAULO ARE THE JAPANESE.

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:16 pm on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
Macunaima, I have no desire to get into your Karenga obsession.  I had been one of Karenga’s critics and not because of the issue with the Panthers.  It was because of his treatment, at the time, of the women in his organization.  

I am, on one hand, at a disadvantage here, because, in trying to be more directed, I had decided that the context does not exist on this forum for a discussion on Karenga and the ‘experiment’ of the Black Power Movment in the United States from the mid-60s to the mid 70’s.  I even felt bad just saying COINTELPRO….folks don’t know what the hell I’m (we’re) talking about.  

On the other hand, I have a small advantage (maybe…I don’t know your history) because I am not some 19 year old who read books about this issue.  And what I know comes from a very inside view.  

But more importantly, I’ve seen the ability of people to get away from the personal to the needs of the community.  I was a major opponent against Karenga participating in the various academic conferences in Philadelphia.  But I’ve seen John Henrik Clarke (noted African-American historian…now deceased), Bobby Seale (co-founder of Black Panthers…living in Philly) and Elaine Brown (former chairperson of Communications for the Panthers) share a dias (at the CHEIKH ANTA DIOP conference and the DuBois conferences), hug and feed us their lessons on their mistakes, their successes.  I have heard forgiveness asked and forgiveness given.  And I’ve seen the community grow stronger because of this open exchange and it has helped not to romanticize the excesses of the ‘Back-To-Africa’ Black Nationalist group and the ‘adventurism’ of the various Socialist groups, including the Panthers.  

And you are right….we do separate the message and the messengers.  We suck the juice out of what Elijah Muhammad had to teach us as well as agreeing with Malcolm that he fathered children with his secretaries (Elijah Muhammad was the founder of the Nation of Islam).  Amiri Baraka (poet and community activist) beat the hell out of his wife on a Greenwich street but that doesn’t stop us from absorbing the lessons from his activism  in Newark and in igniting the new literary renaissance.  I can even manage to respect Eldridge Cleaver (former Panther) despite the fact that in his book,  SOUL ON ICE, he struck out at the man by raping white women.  But only after he PRACTICED by raping BlackWomen.

I won’t question your right to harbor whatever personal animosities you’d prefer.  However though I have taught  my strengths are as an organizer and how to prioritize strategies for a specific result.  I just feel that there is a bigger lesson for Brazilians in a thorough analysis of the Black Power Movement than a parochial analysis of Karenga.  Some of the groups in Salvador that you don’t seem to like were the major initiators of the annual Zumbi celebration.  It would cause confusion if you, or anyone else, decided to disparage the Zumbi celebrations because of their animosity towards one or the other of the founders.

Whether the lessons of the Black Power Movement in the United States complements the activists in Brazil is an issue for Brazilians to decide but I think that the ability for Brazilians to know what these lessons are for themselves get lost .

And that is a sore point with me.   I have met too many ‘gringos’ in Brazil who revise American history to suit their own purposes before a captivated but ignorant Brazilian audience  (that is not an accusation…it is a statement of my experiences.  I don’t know you or your friends).  And it is Brazilians who, for lack of resources or sometimes lack of caring, who do not verify these things for themselves.  I had to cuss out my friends boyfriend (she….black girl from Ilha and he…blonde hair boy from Iowa) because he wanted to impress her by spreading the most vile stereotypes in America about African-Americans (and he knew none!) and she…gulping it down, in awe of this blonde-hair blue eyes showing attention to her.

I have a very big issue with deviating on threads in which the lack of context causes more confusion than clarification.  

The oppression of a people is multi-layered.  It is not just capitalism (or socialism).  Not just racism (or regionalism).  It is not just personal bigotry (or institutional bigotry).  And activist successes have to be measured only in the light of what layer is trying to be defeated.  And respect must be given to those local communities who know better than others what their needs are and what layers of oppression need to be defeated.  Culture Nationalists defeat the oppression of imagery, of motivation, of self-esteem.  There was a study and documentary done years ago that showed that black children up to the age of 6 had much more self-esteem than white kids.  However, AFTER entering the school system…by age 9 these same kids saw no heroes that looked like them….saw no history of achievement of people who looked like them.  They began to hate themselves.  Their hair…their color.  And these same kids would draw cartoons but the characters would have no eyes, or no feet or no hands….all the symbols of powerlessness).  Those who defeat the racism in televison might not feed the masses but they defeat the partriarchal definition of authority only being in the mouths of ‘old white men’.  They redefine what ‘an authoritative figure’ is.  Those who study African dance (or other ethnic dance) defeat the chauvinistic idea that European ballet defines class.  (this was the major avenue by which the Aborigines used an African-American developed arts movement (the two women are from Philly) to branch out into a strong community movement of the Aborigines.

It is for this reason I choose not to continually try to respond to each accusation that this or that initiative did not change THE PROBLEM!  A clear agenda allows a respectful analysis of each initiative and where it fits into the multi-pronged fight against oppression.  

The primary weapon against any people has always been Divide and Conquer.

In my personal opinion, Brazil is a diverse nation with various communities suffering different layers of oppression.  And respect should be given to the voices of those communities as to which layers they want to deal with.

We have learned (are are learning) that the hard way in the States.  African-Americans are diverse.  The issues of urban New Yorkers are different than rural South Carolina and each has to respect the priorities of the other.

Okay….didn’t mean to make a long post (but the Michael Jackson interview is getting boring).


Peace

ps - Me and MARQUESEASY are quite different.  Just as you and Brent are quite different.

For those interested in American Counter Intelligence Operations.  Not the best site but a quick summary

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_Us/COINTELPRO60s_WAH.html

And...just to be vain...here is a flyer about a play about this period that Macunaima is talking about.




Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:03 pm on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP
Guest



Anonymous
   
Macunaima, my wife's parents were reluctant to accept me at first. For one I didn't speak a word of Brazilian Portuguese nor German and that was reeking havoc on our getting our points across. When they saw me for who I am and not some Black gringo trying to rape, cheat, kill, steal their daughter away they eventually let their guards down and respected me for the man I am.

I am light with my translations but I do catch some negative words about me. But we don't live in Brazil (anymore) and for me that made the difference in our lives. I plan to move back with her if she wants to and I am slowlying learning Brazilian Portuguese as her English when I met her was par to none. I love my woman I didn't expect to fall in love with her but I did and the heart doesn't get to pick and choose.

What part of Brazil are you in Macunaima? I will be coming their for Carnaval this year with wife and son. She is dying to get back to her country, until we get there then she's dying to be back in NY. I don't get women at all haha.

Darren. Oh my parents well they are finding it hard to accept my non-speaking perfect English woman, but they are learning. I think people fear the unknown and that to me is what I see the most from everyone who encounters us, is fear of the unknown. I'm a man with a Master's degree in computer science. I don't have a million kids, I'm a good person and that to mean matters more than my skin. But hey life is like that sometimes just gotta prove em wrong.

Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 11:28 pm on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
I BET THE ONLY REASON THAT GERMAN BRAZILIAN WHITE WOMAN MARRIED YOU WAS SO SHE CAN BECOME AN AMERICAN CITIZEN BECAUSE BRAZILIAN WOMEN WHO COME TO AMERICA DO THAT ALL THE TIME.WHAT YOUR PARENTS THINK ABOUT YOU MARRYING A WHITE WOMEN.YOUR BRAZILIAN WIFE IS PROBABLY GONNA DISCOURAGE YOU FROM CALLING YOUR SON BLACK AND INSTEAD SHE'S GONNA SUGGEST YOU CALL HIM PARDO,MORENO,MESTICO,OR MULATTO SINCE BRAZILIANS THINK THATS POLITICALLY CORRECT IN BRAZIL CONSIDERING YOURSELF BLACK IS VERY TABOO THATS WHY I LOVE MY AFRICAN AMERICAN BROTHAZ AND SISTAZ CAUSE WE EMBRACE OUR BLACKNESS SOMETHING BLACK BRAZILIANS WOULDNT BE CAUGHT DEAD DOING AND FINDING A BRAZILIAN WHO IS PROUD TO BE BLACK IS ABOUT AS RARE AS A WHITE BOY LIVING IN EASTSIDE SOUTH COMPTON

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:24 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
fernandobn


Junior Member
   
Hey Marques What do you think that Brazilian women want to become American Citizen? They come stay for a while and then they go back! As Americans are proud to be Americans we Brazilians are proud to be Brazilians! All the Brazilian women that I know living here in US only one opted to become an American Citizen. Even so, she is always with the Brazilian community.

-----
Fernando B.

Total Posts: 55 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 2:25 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
IF THATS ALWAYS THE CASE THEN HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE ALMOST 1 MILLION BRAZILIANS LIVING IN THE U.S HUH

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:34 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
 

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