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Macunaima
Member
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Y’know, Adrianerik, I got to thinking about your implied criticism that I’m attributing Brazil’s racial problems to outside agitators... In fact, I’m charging just the opposite. I’d LOVE to see some outside agitation on social justice issues in Brazil. I’d love to see anti-racist Americans – of whatever color – willing to put their lives, fortune and sacred honor on the line in order to help make this country a better place. I see very little agitation at all on race and class issues, however, almost none of it from outsiders.
What I DO see are people pushing ethno- and eco-tourism. I see some academics making a reputation by decrying Brazilian racism. There’s a handful of people dedicated to building a few minor, local liberal initiatives, like teaching favela kids to box as a counterpoint to the multi-billion real drug trade.
I see no gringos with any understanding of the Brazilian legal system, electoral politics, or constitutional law, however. I see no gringos wishing to acquire this kind of understanding at all. In fact, most of the time I see gringos of any color open their mouths, it’s to decry the very notion that Brazil HAS a working government or constitution.
Like it or not, those were the fields in which activism concretely aided black U.S. Americans. Karenga and his crowd were a loud, messy side-show, occasionally insightful, but manifestly unable to bring REAL change to America’s oppressed multitudes.
So get it right, Adrian. I’m not accusing certain diasporists of being outside agitators: I’m accusing them of being ineffective rebels, of not being revolutionaries, of offering inoperative solutions to relatively minor problems while helping direct attention away from the real meat-and-potatoes issues that affect millions of poor and black Brazilians. I’m accusing certain people of worrying about the goddamned frosting when they haven’t even got a cake. And I’m accusing “the Movement” (or whatever euphemism you’d like to put behind your royal “we”) of having lost control of the one game that should concern you most, the fight against anti-racism in the U.S., while you lecture Brazilians on how to run their affairs.
Agitators? I’d love to see an American equivalent of the freedom riders come on down to Brazil. Such devotion and commitment would be a refreshing change. Instead, Brazil gets to host post-modern Amos and Andy purveyors who aid in the construction of an endless stream of media-friendly “black” cultural artifacts to feed the global market’s maw.
If this is “agitation”, then Bull Connor can rest easy in hell.
Re: your point five. My point is that "pride" won't feed you. It's a good thing to have, undoubtedly, but the many ills so many have cited here - lack of housing, education, employment and health care in Brazil - will not be solved by pride.
Furthermore, having lived in many afro-brazilian communities, I wonder where you're getting this idea that Black Brazilians feel humble and inferior?
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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!
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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:06 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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Macunaima
Member
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Whoops. That should be the "fight against racism" or the "anti-racist fight" in that last post. Not the "fight against anti-racism". Though come to think of it, the U.S. fight against anti-racism should also concern Adrianerik and his pals.
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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!
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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:14 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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ELEGANTGENT
Junior Member
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Darren, i could not have said it better myself.
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Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:13 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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BLACKS IN BRAZIL MAY NOT SEE THEMSELVES AS BLACK BUT IF THEY COME TO AMERICA THEY WILL GET A MAJOR REALITY CHECK CAUSE NOBODY IN AMERICA IS GONNA SEE THEM AS WHITES OR MORENOS LIKE BACK IN THEIR COUNTRY ITS A WHOLE ANOTHER BALLGAME HERE
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:53 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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Ze
Junior Member
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Good for them that they don't come né?
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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:28 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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Macunaima
Member
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Thanks for telling us the extremely obvious, MArques.
In the future, the merely obvious will do.
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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!
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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:45 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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Adrianerik
Newbie
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You've introduced another topic. The original point was not how big or massive various social activist thrusts are. You had placed a definitive parameter on what that involvement should be and what it should not be. That is what I replied to and you gave examples with which I disagreed.
My friends have been intimately involved in Cuba, South Africa and Haiti (I helped there) and Australia. It is our own time, our own money, except for South Africa (that was an initiative of the American Friends Service Committee). At the same time lawsuits on behalf of Black Farmers were filed against the Farm Bureau (and won), against Denny's (and won), against Marriott (and won). The point being that we are perfectly capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.
The topic also was not a referendum on Karenga. The 'movement' is a tapestry. We are a diverse people...not lemmings led by one super black god. Karenga offered what he offered. We are very good at chewing the meat and spitting out the bones. But we will not get into the game of dissing this or the other because they are not pleasing to some outside agenda.
There are over 2000 national black organizations across this country. It's been known a long time ago that there is a weakness in being psychologically attached to one charismatic leader. There is enough expertise in the various communities to create, develop leadership and pursue their own agendas. The organizations help to share experiences, shorten learning curves and give leverage when necessary.
The Movement are the thousands of little courageous groups and peoples tutoring and sweeping schools and taking in orphaned kids in South Carolina, taking people to court, saying 'no' when necessary, saying 'yes' when necessary...motivated by the knowledge that they are not alone but part of others who have resisted....in the words of the Cultural Nationalists....."expose, accuse, attack and present viable alternatives".
Same as Brazil.
And this forum is about Brazil....not African-Americans.
That is why the agendas and the parameters of their activism will not be set by your 'WE' or my 'WE'. Any outsider serves the direction of an organized community. Any so-called politico in Brazil needs to know that the problems in Brazil do not emanate from the ground....or the trees....or the water....but from people. And before this "we" dictates what the shape of activism in Brazil will be they also have to be more than holders of a Brazilian birth certificate and make the term 'Brazilian Solutions' more than an oxymoron.
I have no doubt that there are shysters and hustlers and poverty pimps in Brazil. That neither was the topic. We had (have) them also. You slap flies and mosquitoes when they get annoying. But the agenda for social activism should not have as its main priority chasing flies and mosquitoes.
I've been approached by several folks wanting to increase ethno and eco tourism. That's not my bag. But I've seen several motives. Some only see American dollar signs. But there are others who see the young european couples (boy and girl) who have no interest in sexual trysts but backpackt through the countryside and others see the older African-Americans (mostly women) who, in the words of the auther of Cream to Coal "don't see Baianas but tired black women trying to survive...same as their mothers and grandmothers".
Everything can be leveraged if there is an agenda.
The effort at boxing is admirable. It is pragmatic but as Maya Angelou says "you do the best that you can given the knowledge and resources available at the time".
A Black Consciousness movement is more than pride. And that is why it remains viciously attacked anywhere the ideology of white supremacy and the supremacy of western civilization is the dominant 'ism'. Why the Mormon Church waltzes into Brazil, with its doctrine that the violent Cain after killing Abel was cursed and turned black and there is no Brazilian outcry but native born Brazilians are labeled as divisive because they embrace the heritage of their formerly enslaved grandmother. Black Consciousness attacks the false worldview of history codified in racist churches, in false history books. The whitewashing of history (a-la Rudyard Kipling's THE WHITE MANS BURDEN). It scares whites who, deep in ther heart, rests upon the acceptance of white privlege (my spelling), who speak one way, but would not know what to do when the psychic foundation of false white history is peeled away and they are forced to be (oh-my-god!) normal human beings, products of a civilization that has done some good things, some bad things...some better than others...some worse than others.
In Cuba Afro-Cubans have education, housing and jobs but, even in a Socialist System, they are relegated to the bottom. Afro-Cuban music struggles to survive. The Socialist leaders prefer 'light' Cubans to work in the preferred businesses. It is the blacks and browns and tans selling their bodies to the same Europeans who can't afford a ticket to Brazil.
The point being that a people without a connection to themselves, not some sports/entertainment/big-butt connection but a sense of peoplehood that is greater than some political or economic system....then that people are just well-cared for slaves.
One of these days I'll introduce you to a few of the others. Not a movement. Just a few folks agitating. The others came from the States but they went to the forum in Porto Alegre.
Peace
Actually....Macunaima - I'd prefer you to 90% of the white americans i've met. We're pulling on the same rope....same direction....your rhythm is just 1/3...and mine is 2/4. (scientific fact)
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:16 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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ELEGANTGENT
Junior Member
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macuaniama, adrianerik, you both have valid points, but it appears that you both are letting personal feelings and opinions support your post. you both have great information. basically, there is difference somewhat between brazil and america and there is also some simuliarities. very broad span, no generalizing. in my opinion.
brazil always was a country of the future.
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Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:38 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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THERE IS A SAYING HERE THAT US AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE AND THAT IS THE BLACKER THE BERRY THE SWEETER THE JUICE AND HERE IS ANOTHER ONE SAY IT LOUD I AM BLACK AND I AM PROUD SEE WE DONT DENY WHO WE ARE UNLIKE BLACK BRAZILIANS.THE CARIBBEAN IS ALSO VERY AFROCENTRIC TOO CAUSE THEY ARE PROUD OF WHO THEY ARE.WITHOUT BLACKS THERE WOULD BE NO CARIBBEAN CULTURE OR MUSIC AND THE SAME THANG FOR HERE IN THE U.S US BLACKS INVENTED THE BEST GENRES OF MUSIC LIKE JAZZ,R&B,AND HIP HOP.AND THE CARIBBEAN BLACKS INVENTED REGGAE AND THE AFRO CUBANS INVENTED ROMBA.AFRO CUBANS ARE PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST IF NOT THE MOST PRO BLACKS IN ALL OF LATIN AMERICA.I REMEMBER CASTRO SENT OVER 20,000 CUBAN SOLDIERS TO ANGOLA TO TRY TO HELP STOP THE WAR OVER THERE YOU KNOW WHY BECAUSE THE BLOOD OF AFRICA RUNS DEEP THROUGH THE ISLANDS OF CUBA AND THE REST OF THE CARIBBEAN.IMPORTANT BLACK LEADERS LIKE MALCOLM X EVEN VISITED CUBA BEFORE AND ANOTHER THING TOO WITHOUT BLACK CUBANS THERE WOULD BE NO CUBAN SPORTS FOR EXAMPLE LOOK AT THE CUBAN VOLLEYBALL TEAM MALE AND FEMALE THEY ARE ALL BLACK AND THEY WIN ALOT OF MEDALS WHETHER IT BE IN THE OLYMPICS OR THE PAN AMERICAN GAMES.I ALSO READ IN AN ARTICLE ONCE THAT CUBA HAS THE SECOND HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF BLACK DOCTORS SECOND ONLY TO THE U.S NOW THATS SAYING SOMETHING IF BILL CLINTON WAS THE U.S'S QUOTE "FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT" AS MANY AFRICAN AMERICANS JOKE ABOUT THEN I WOULD SAY FIDEL CASTRO IS CUBA'S "FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT" BECAUSE BEFORE CASTRO CAME ALONG AFRO CUBANS HAD IT REALLY BADLY
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:06 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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ELEGANTGENT
Junior Member
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markeasy, don't know about that. castro and bubba are an insult to all humanity. also
question:
cuba, stop the war in angola?
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Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:20 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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I REMEMBER FORMER BLACK PANTHER AFENI SHAKUR LIVED IN CUBA BUT I DONT KNOW IF SHE STILL DOES THOUGH
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:10 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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Macunaima
Member
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God, Marquesleazy, you are your own worst parody.
Adrianerik, THIS is the black consciousness you're on about? American imperial arrogance and hallielujahs to black consumer T.V.? Wow, what an advance in human thought we're missing out on down here...
"You've introduced another topic. The original point was not how big or massive various social activist thrusts are. You had placed a definitive parameter on what that involvement should be and what it should not be."
Excuse me, but what definitive parameter are you talking about? I merely criticized certain trends I've noticed coming out of Salvador. That's hardly a definitive parameter. I suggested that internationals supporting this stuff have some deeper thinking to do. That's hardly a definitive parameter. And finally, I pointed out that cultural initiatives, while nice, have a piss-poor record of building lasting change if not tied to real political and economic power. That most definitely is not laying down a definitive parameter.
So what exactly are you talking about? I don't know about where you come from, Adrian, but where I'm sitting, this sort of slick rhettorical move you've just made is what gets you trashed at conferences.
"At the same time lawsuits on behalf of Black Farmers were filed against the Farm Bureau (and won), against Denny's (and won), against Marriott (and won). The point being that we are perfectly capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time."
Which is why, of course, things are going so well for blacks in the U.S. Are you folks so capable in Brazil, I wonder? What legal initiatives are you backing here? Do you have lawyers on call? Can you provide legal support to Brazilians looking to get legislation passed? Can you folks even READ a legal document in Portuguese?
"Karenga offered what he offered. We are very good at chewing the meat and spitting out the bones. But we will not get into the game of dissing this or the other because they are not pleasing to some outside agenda."
I just found it ironic that you were supporting even part of the social agenda of a man responsible for the death of other black activists. The only meat and bone I've heard of Karenga chewing was that belonging to Bunchy Carter and Jon Huggins. But I suppose the Black Panthers were part of that "outside agenda" you're talking about...
"There are over 2000 national black organizations across this country."
Then what's this royal "we" stuff that comes out of your mouth everytime you talk about American blacks? Again, you call me imprecise and overly vague?
"And this forum is about Brazil....not African-Americans."
Excuse me, but didn't you just make a claim in your last post that it's the same shit everywhere? Why the sudden 180 degree turn?
"That is why the agendas and the parameters of their activism will not be set by your 'WE' or my 'WE'."
My "we" is simply the Brazilian polis, the citizens of Brazil. You can bet your Afro-Reggae commemorative poster that the agendas and parameters of Brazilian activism will be set by my "we". What your "we" is doing, other than buying tickets to party in Salvador or Porto Alegre, I have no idea. What little I've seen doesn't impress me. Perhaps I'm ignorant. Show me I'm wrong! It seems that the only time "we" can get "you" to work with us on issues is when there's a party involved. Lots of gringos at Porto Alegre right now. How many of them do you think will stay on in Brazil after Carnaval?
"I have no doubt that there are shysters and hustlers and poverty pimps in Brazil. That neither was the topic. We had (have) them also. You slap flies and mosquitoes when they get annoying. "
They're getting out of control and here in the tropics, they carry disease. Only a Northerner would rate mosquitoes and flies as a nuisance. If you'd ever had to suffer through dengue, you'd never choose such an unfortunate (or perhaps serendipitous) metaphor.
"But the agenda for social activism should not have as its main priority chasing flies and mosquitoes."
Which, despite the annoyance, isn't what I'm proposing. Out of the six or seven things I've had to say about race in Brazil, only one - my wariness of the whole Salavador afro hype scene - got your nose out of joint and we've been arguing about that ever since. I stand by my original staement: Salvador doesn't impress me. If you don't like that, fine, but that's hardly a call for an anti-Bahian crusade on my part.
"Everything can be leveraged if there is an agenda."
No kidding. I just wish certain diasporists would be just a wee bit more honest with themselves and others about what their agendas in Brazil might be. What's yours?
"The effort at boxing is admirable."
No it isn't. It's fucking ridiculous. The CV is laughing their asses off at these people. Kids aren't getting involved with drugs because they lack excitement, they're doing it because it's a real, concrete job opportunity that pays better than ANYTHING else they are liable to get. To the degree that this program convinces people that "something is being done" about drugs in the favela, it detracts from real solutions. we can do muchj better work than this with what we've got, if we just had the balls to be honest with ourselves as to what's going on. They'd be better off taking all the program's cash and simply handing it out on the hill.
But hey: it gives a few American liberals something to put on their resumes when they leave here for their next career move, so I guess it's all worthwhile.
Re: white fear of black consciousness. Only someone who's never really sat down and chatted with hardcore racists face to face would make a statement like that. Sorry to bust your lil' red, black and green bubble, but none of the white racists I grew up with give a flying fuck about "Black Consciousness" one way or another. They probably couldn't even pronounce the words and they certainly don't know who the hell Kipling was. Fear is not what's motivating them: bone deep ignorance and self-loathing is what moves Bubba and you shouldn't be kidding yourself that it's anything but.
Re: Kipling's WHITE MAN"S BURDEN, the most ironic thing about it is that many diasporists seem to be engaged in a post-modern version of it, bringing light, happiness and civilization to the ignorant, humble, underdeveloped (or whatever adjective you favor) natives overseas. Kipling's poem talks about the "noble" sacrifice "civilized" men must make to uplift their less-fortunate brethern in far-off pagan lands. I'd like to think that you have more capacity for self-critique than this, but a civilizing mission is certainly what Marqueseazy is all about and he seems to be a fellow traveller of yours. MarqueMarque here considers himself to be a proponent of "black consciousness" and I have rarely seen such an extreme example of imperial chauvinism. WHITE MAN"s BURDEN, indeed...
Re: Brazil and outside agitators. You've made several of these rather generic yelps that you're being criticized by anonymous Brazilians who see you as being a dangerous outside agitators Would you care to supply us here with the names of these gentlepeople? I hear a lot about them, but I see very, very few folks with the viewpoint you describe. If it's such a common syndrome, then surely you can provide me with the names of at leats three Brazilians who are currently opposing your work in this fashion.
As for the Brazilian government's relation to the Mormons, having seen what's been going on in mission law makes me believe that you simply don't know what you're talking about. The Mormons and every North American missionary church are seen in very bad light in Brasilia and the Ministério dos Estrangeiros is up the Later Day Saints' gringo asses in a very big way. It is not at all easy for them to get visas and permission to prosletyze doiwn here, despite what your friends in Salvador might think.
"The point being that a people without a connection to themselves, not some sports/entertainment/big-butt connection but a sense of peoplehood that is greater than some political or economic system....then that people are just well-cared for slaves."
Again, I ask you: who is this "we", this "people" you're talking about? You're postulating a "people" that simply doesn't exist on ground level in Brazil and - I daresay - in the States. There's no "there" there except in theory! Are my friend's white and Indian relatives part of her "people", or do youn think she should cut them off so that you North Americans can feel more comfortable about an arbitrary color line draw during the closing days of U.S. slavery?
"Actually....Macunaima - I'd prefer you to 90% of the white americans i've met. We're pulling on the same rope....same direction....your rhythm is just 1/3...and mine is 2/4. (scientific fact)."
Actually, Adrianerik, I'm more of speed-metal thrasher or a samba and choro man, myself. The waltz just doesn't do it for me. Scientific fact. And if you think that European music is limited to 1/3 time, you need to rethink some of your history. There's nothing scientific at all about your belief nor are your ideologies "African" as opposed to my supposedly "European" ones. You're too smart a guy to be repeating this namby-pamby "my sacred people" shit without realizing where its philosophical roots come from. I'll give you a hint: it ain't Africa.
As for whether you like me more than other white people, well... I'll let you in on a little secret. Having grown up redneck, I'm a HELL of a lot more afraid of the Bubbas of this world and their Yuppie allies than I am of any passel of angry black activists. I'm not in this for my academic career, or to be seen as a nice liberal white guy by black folks, so I have no need to be politically correct or mealy-mouthed. And I'm informed enough about my own history to realize that racist theories were applied to white folks like me long before they were applied to blacks. Or do you really believe that the Powers That Be in this world consider all white people to be the same type? That's the kind of trash they may hand out to their Klan thugs, but it's not what they talk about among friends at the country club. I'm always suprised when I hear black people passing this kind of nazi propaganda back to me as if it were God's millenial wisdom.
"Listen to your own people first...", indeed. Who are my people Adrian, have you ever considered that? When you say trash like that, I hear the racists of my youth in black voice. That's the philosophy of social darwinism, your spouting there, Adrian, not the wisdom of seven genreations of black grandmas. Even ignerint trailer trash like me can recognize that. Pretty scary that you seem to think it's such hot shit.
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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!
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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:17 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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Macunaima
Member
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That's Assata Shakur, Sleazy. Get your fuckin' history right.
Shit. Kid claims he's into black consiousness and can't even remember his ancetor's names.
Sad.
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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!
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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:19 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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Guest
Anonymous
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Gawd this is boring. Aren't some of you tired of the books you've written on this topic? Some of you need a podium or something.
. . .still waiting to hear the thoughts of a Black Brasilian, like first hand experience from them.
No offense but yawn to all this Black and White American redderick.
Can we somehow steer this topic back to the original question? I know I don't have to read, but I am trying to learn, the rest I don't care about personally and since some of you just want to go on and on and on and on and on off topic. Well it's just kinda a bore. I'm not trying to be offensive. It's just that if I wanted to learn about Black and White issues, I'd go go a board that caters to that, it's like who bought America into the topic. I felt the original question was pretty specific.
Well carry on. I'm sure you will no matter.
God Speed.
(Edited by Guest at 7:26 pm on Feb. 4, 2003)
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:07 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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Adam
Junior Member
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obrigado
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Tchau
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Total Posts: 64 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:55 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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Ze
Junior Member
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You still have faith that one "afro-brazilian" will care to enter this forum, and then answer your question in the middle of this warzone? Hop into the shadows and have fun, it is hard to find such an interesting discussion nowadays.
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Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:07 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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GOOD LUCK IN FINDING A BLACK BRAZILIAN FOR THIS FORUM ODDS ARE IF YOU FIND ONE HE OR SHE PROBABLY WOULDNT CONSIDER HIM OR HERSELF BLACK ANYWAYS THEY WOULD PROBABLY CONSIDER THEMSLEVES BRANCO OR MORENO,MULATTO,MESTIZO ANYTHANG BUT BLACK.ATLEAST US AFRICAN AMERICANS DONT HAVE AN IDENTITY CRISIS WE KNOW VERY WELL WHO WE ARE THATS WHY YOU CAN NEVER REALLY HAVE BLACK MOVEMENTS IN BRAZIL SINCE MOST BLACK BRAZILIANS DONT EVEN SEE THEMSELVES AS BLACK ONLY 6% DO THE OTHER 45% SURE AS HELL DONT.IN AMERICA WE DONT HAVE THIS MULATTO CRAP ALL OF US AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE BLACK WE DONT TURN OUR BACKS ON OUR AFRICAN ANCESTORS LIKE BLACK BRAZILIANS DO.AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE BLACK REGARDLESS IF WE'RE LIGHTSKINNED OR DARKSKINNED BUT WE STILL BLACK TO SAY OTHERWISE IS RIDICULOUS.THE SAME THANG WITH BLACK CARIBBEANS THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE AND BLACK BRAZILIANS ARE THE ONLY BLACKS IN THE WORLD WITH A SERIOUS IDENTITY CRISIS I BET NEXT TIME BRAZIL HAS A CENSUS INSTEAD OF 6% OF BRAZILIANS SEEING THEMSELVES AS BLACK IT WILL PROBABLY BE 1% WHILE THE OTHER 5% WILL BE WHITEWASHED INTO THINKING THEY ARE SOMETHING ELSE
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:33 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
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Macunaima
Member
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Hey MarqueMarque!
Stopped beating your wife yet?
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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!
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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:17 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Macunaima
Member
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To get back to the original topic, I'd rather be Black and rich in Brazil than white and poor by a loooooong fuckin' country mile.
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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!
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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:25 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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DONT YOU MEAN RICH AND MORENO REMEMBER SINCE MOST BLACKS IN BRAZIL DONT SEE THEMSELVES AS BLACKS CAUSE THEY IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS BEING MORENOS.BRAZIL SHOULD START A MORENO CONSCIOUS MOVEMENT,MET MORENO ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION,AND THE MORENO PANTHERS LOL BRAZIL A MORENO DEMOCRACY VERY MORENOCENTRIC AINT IT LOL
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:49 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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SO IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT SALVADOR AINT REALLY PREDOMINANTLY BLACK SALVADOR IS REALLY PREDOMINANTLY MORENO SO I GUESS PELE,BENEDITA DA SILVA,MILTON NASCIMENTO,AND THE CAST OF THE MOVIE CITY OF GOD ARE REALLY ALL MORENOS RIGHT SINCE FROM YOUR BRAZILIAN PEOPLE'S DEFINITION OF RACE THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT THEY COULD POSSIBLY BE BLACK RIGHT I MEAN GOD FORBID IF ANY OF THESE MORENOS ARE CALLED BLACK LOL
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:01 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Macunaima
Member
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Next time I talk to Bené or Ivanir de Santos, I'll say that according to some BET fan in San Francisco, they don't exist as rich, powerful self-identified black Brazilians.
That should be good for a laugh.
Now don't you have some gyrating moreno butts to go jack off to, MarqueMarque?
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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!
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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:37 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Guest
Anonymous
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I'm at another computer. I don't want to go cut and paste and show the path and context of your comments. Rhetorical change? Interesting.
I'm not complaining. Any of our efforts have not been rejected by anyone. Where did that come from?
A final point......The battle between US and the Panthers was as a result of the letters planted by the operations of COINTELPRO to foster a battle between them. (info available de-classified documents).
Our lesson today is their inability to have established communications between themselves.
That's all.
Ta-ta!
ps - I have met many of your racists face to face. I'm from South Carolina. I have three cousins in the ground because of them.
Racism is more than 'yahoos' with 2 by 4s in South Carolina. You know that.
Adrianerik
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:29 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Macunaima
Member
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"I'm not complaining. Any of our efforts have not been rejected by anyone. Where did that come from? "
I haven't the slightest notion of what you are talking about.
The US/Panther split existed long before COINTELPRO used letters to intensify it. Though the FBI is certainly as much to blame as Karenga, it was he who went ahead and ordered the killings and the blood of Huggins and Carter ultimately can't be washed off his hands by bleatings that "The FBI made me do it!" If Karenga was that gullible that a poorly conceived and executed COINTELPRO would induce him to kill fellow black nationalist activists, then he wasn't playing with a full deck anyhow. Everything I've seen about the man indicates that he's learned nothing since.
"I have met many of your racists face to face. I'm from South Carolina. I have three cousins in the ground because of them."
I have two good friends who are dead because of white siupremacists, too, so please don't call them "my" racists. And though racism is certainly more than the Klan and affiliated baboons, my point was never that it wasn't. My point was, simply, that racists aren't "afraid" of black consciousness, as you claimed. Would that they were. They are by-and-large motivated by the same "my sacred people" feelings as yourself. Surely YOU know that.
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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!
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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:06 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Macunaima
Member
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Theory, Practice and Race in Brazil and the U.S.
The debate here on whether or not Brazilians of African descent consider themselves to be “Black” – though brought up by the ever ignorant Marquesleazy – sheds some light on differences between race in Brazil and the U.S.
As the founder of modern ethnography, Branislaw Malinoswki, pointed out close to a century ago, the actual functioning of any human community is generally not congruent with the way its members SAY it should function. Malinowski identified the two sides of this split as “theory” and “practice” and showed that, whatever the theory was about a given social phenomenon, practice was usually quite different.
Race in Brazil and the U.S., while working, practically, in very similar ways is seen from very different theoretical underpinnings.
Americans, theoretically, believe in hypodescendency, the idea that one drop of “black blood” makes one black. Brazilians, again theoretically, believe in a range of human colors stretching from black to white with a wide mestiço ground in the middle.
In life as it’s lived, however, both systems recognized a bilateral division between white/not white AND a hierarchically organized color-graded scheme.
While Americans love painting the world in black and white, no shade of gray needed or wanted, even a short jaunt to the States will show anyone that the lighter a black person is, the better off he or she is liable to be. The vast majority of America’s “black” elite probably wouldn’t call itself black or be called such in Brazil. Many, in fact, would and do say they are white. “Passing”, as I’ve mentioned above, is a very American phenomenon in which a light-skinned Black person reinvents himself or herself socially as white. So it’s completely incorrect to say that the U.S. is a nation divided between blacks and whites and that color counts for nothing. Obviously, it does. When was the last time you saw a very black man who was not a sports star or musical celebrity on U.S. T.V.?
Brazil, on the other hand, likes to think it’s escaped this neat black/white duality. In reality, however, there is a divide between white and not white that’s as radical in practice as it is in the States. Though Brazilians like to portray themselves as “mestiços”, when push comes to shove, it’s always the person that’s one tone darker than the one talking that’s “really” black.
Now the funny thing about all this is that Brazilianists of all nationalities and colors waste tons of ink debating the theoretical side of things but rarely, if ever, look into how race practically works in Brazil. When we get down into the nitty-gritty daily life, we find that racial accusations, labels and epithets are all CONDITIONAL. The person who proudly claims African heritage for herself today will be trashing on someone else’s “nappy” hair tomorrow. Is this really all that different from the way things work in the U.S.?
50 years ago, Oracy Nogueira said that if we were really interested in looking at racism in Brazil, we should perhaps study Black Americans own racial prejudice. This would give us a better model for the way things work in Brazil than looking at white American race prejudice.
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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!
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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:22 am on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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BRAZIL IS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHERE PEOPLE REFER THIS MULATTO CRAP THE U.S,THE CARIBBEAN,AND AFRICA DONT CERTAINLY DONT PRACTICE THIS THANK GOD CAN YOU IMAGINE FOR EXAMPLE IF BOB MARLEY CALLED HIMSLEF A MESTICO THEN ONE OF HIS FRIENDS WOULD SAY WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MON YOUR BLACK WHAT THE HELL IS A MESTICO YOU BE SMOKING THAT GANJA AGAIN MON LOL.EVEN THOUGH BOB MARLEY WAS HALF WHITE HE STILL DECLARED HIMSELF BLACK BECAUSE HE IS NOT GONNA TURN HIS BACK ON HIS AFRICAN ANCESTORS NOW THATS AFROCENTRIC FOR YOU.BRAZIL CAN NEVER CAN TO BE AFROCENTRIC WHEN ITS PEOPLE DENY THEIR AFRICAN BLOOD YOU CANT HAVE AN AFROCENTRIC SOCIETY IF THE PEOPLE ARE ASHAMED TO ASSUME THEY ARE BLACK BRAZIL IS FAR FROM A PRO BLACK SOCIETY BRAZIL SHOULD LEARN A FEW LESSONS FROM THE U.S,CUBA,JAMAICA,THE BAHAMAS,AND EVEN THEIR NORTHERN NEIGHBORS WITH A PREDOMINANTLY BLACK POPULATION THAT BEING THE GUYANAS
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:11 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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JAMAICANS ARE ALSO ANOTHER PROUD GROUP OF BLACK FOLKS AND THEY ACTUALLY HAVE THEIR OWN AIRLINES AIR JAMAICA ITS GOOD TO SEE MY PEOPLE DOING THINGS AND FOR ONCE THE PILOT WAS BLACK AND SO WERE ALL STEWERDESS THERE SHOULD BE MORE BLACK OWNED AIRLINES LIKE AIR JAMAICA
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:20 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Loco
Newbie
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Brazilians see the diferents races as the way that we want, will not be americans who are going to teach us what is black and what is white.
When some north american say to me that brazilians are murders because are killing indians I think funny...its the old american hipocrysy....
US its one of the most racist countries of the world, the only diference is that you have many blacks living better there than in others countries.
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SEI LÁ
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Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:29 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Macunaima
Member
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Actually, according to my friend Beto who worked in Jamaica for several years, "mulato" is also a race category there. he was always called a "brown man" by the locals, never a "black man", though North americans unhesitatingly label him black.
I wouldn't say that a person who calls themselves a mulato is necessarily turning his or her back on anything. I think s/he has the right to look to all their "peoples" if they want to.
Y'know, it's funny Marquesleazy: neither you nor Adrianerik have answered the question I posed two or three times now.
My friend Silvia is a self-described Black Brazilian who's also working on her doctorate at my school. She's been watching this debate develop with great interest but has not, as of yet, decided to enter it.
Her one question - after showing me the pictures of her family - is this:
"These two black guys there go on and on about 'their people' and how I'm supposed to be part of it, but they probably don't even speak my language. This Marqueseazy guy looks to be a real idiot who knows nothing about Brazil. Adrian seems smarter, but I still wonder what basis he thinks he has for calling me 'sister'? Here's my grandfather: Portuguese. Here's my other grandmother: Indian. I have no problems calling myself Black and being happy and proud of who I am. But listening to these two guys' arguments, I should, based on the color of my skin, cut real life family out of my definition of 'my people' in order to close ranks with black gringos? Why would I consider Marqueseazy to be 'my people' over, say, my white cousin, when Marqueseazy can't even show the smallest degree of respect for my country? Who the hell does he think he's talking to, anyhow?"
So that's a brief transcription of her rant. Maybe I can convince her to come on here and rap with y'all in Portuguese later.
Before that, though, how about showing some respect and attempting to answer her question, folks? To whit: why should Silvia cut family out of "her people" to close ranks with folks like Marqueseazy whose chauvinism against Brazil and Brazilians is - judging from his posts here - immense? why is Marques "her people" but her Portuguese granddaddy not?
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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!
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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:47 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Macunaima
Member
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Face it guys: you're hypodescendists. That's fine. but implying that that is the only way that one can look at the world is pure bullshit chauvinism, as well as being a great example of that "either/or" binary mentality that Adrianerik classifies as "European".
Funny. You want to be afro-centric, but the most non-African thing imaginable - binary division of humans based on skin color - is the one rock-solid given that underlies your philosophy.
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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!
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Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:00 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Guest
Anonymous
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Obrigado Loco!!!!
I'd like to hear from your Black Brasilian friends Macunaima, under their name of course. Damn I am keeping a vigil for Black Brasilians and this topic.
Can I suggest a message board that this whole race in America topic should go? There are a ton of websites that cater to this.
Hey Ze sadly I am wishing for that answer.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:55 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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DONT HOLD YOUR BREATH WHY DONT YOU JUST SETTLE FOR A MESTICO BRAZILIAN CAUSE FINDING A BRAZILIAN WHO IDENTIFYS HIMSELF AS BLACK IS ABOUT AS RARE AS SEEING A WHITE CUBAN VOLLEYBALL PLAYER LOL
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:39 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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HERE'S ANOTHER ONE FINDING A BRAZILIAN WHO IDENTIFYS HIMSELF AS BLACK IS ABOUT AS RARE AS A WHITE PERSON LIVING IN THE MIDDLE OF 110TH STREET IN HARLEM LOL
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:44 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Guest
Anonymous
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Marqueseazy, I have concluded that all you do is speak out of your ass. I have also concluded that you will say anything to get a rise out of the posters on this board. Why because you make some of the most uninformed and ignorant comments I have ever read.
I live in Harlem, white people live on 110th Street, from Broadway to CPW, to Amsterdam etc. You clearly have never heard of Columbia University which is at 116th and Broadway (not to mention the University extends higher and lower than that) oh yeah it's an Ivy League University.It happens to sit right in the downtown version of Harlem. Lots and lots of white students, professors, and regular working folks live in and around the area. In fact my favourite eateries are in that area. Not to mention it's a nice part of the city. There are all sorts of affluent people living in that area, and not just white, but the majority are white. So where you getting this information is beyound me, it certainly doesn't seem you've ever visited the area, or even Harlem.
Man what sickness. Why don't you take your Brazil hating ass to some other board, you are truly making us Black folk look bad, as well as just about all Americans. Come on man lay off the 40's ounces and spliffs, from one Black man to you. Damn man you set us back with this misinformation.
I wonder if some beautiful Brazilian woman rejected your ass, must've been something or your just one of those internet stalkers or no-lifers. Man get an education already, pick-up a book, turn on CNN why don't you. Can somebody throw him a vowel, better yet a clue and a book.
Darren.
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 6:25 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Adrianerik
Newbie
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Doggone it! After a long post...my computer crashed.
Must be telling me to go to bed.
Lay-tah!
ps - Macunaima...tell your friend that she can call herself whatever she wants. Why do you ask me that question? You are the anthropologist. You know that race (a falsity), ethnicity (quite real), national identity (always changing..constant state of flux....rarely has mores), social identity (concrete but usually biased) are much more complicated than who your grandmother or grandfather was.
But if she chooses a label that is infected with the color-caste-system that Brazil has modified from 433 to....what is it is now....about 13 with a sense of higher or lower.....and does not fight to change it because an accident of genes makes her 'safe' than she does a disservice to her indian, portuguese and african blood.
I have never weighed in on what Brazil hopes to be.
Back at cha! Particularly on your partial description of the lessons of Black Nationalist/BlackPanthers/Nation of Islam/Pan-African milieu.
Not to mention the SCLC/NAACP split.
There were no gods.....just humans.
And blame all around.
There is a difference between the natural rivalry between the Nationalists and the Socialists that existed across the board and the conflagration that erupted on the East Coast.
I'm out.
ps - you woke up on the wrong side of the bed on an earlier post. I'll respond to that.
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Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:47 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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THIS IS FOR THE GUEST WHY YOU ON BRAZILIAN PEOPLE'S NUTTZ NIGGA THEY JUST A BUNCH OF UNCLE TOMS AND I SEE YOU ARE ONE TOO HOW CAN YOU DEFEND A COUNTRY WHERE 95% OF THE BLACKS DONT EVEN IDENTIFY AS SUCH WHY DONT YOU TAKE YOUR BITCH ASS TO BRAZIL AND CHANGE YOUR IDENTITY FROM BLACK TO MULATTO CAUSE THATS WHAT THEY ARE GONNA CALL YOU DOWN THERE YOU WANNA BE KNOWN AS A FUCKIN MULE GO AHEAD.
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:05 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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TO ME BRAZIL IS THE MOST RACIST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD ITS THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TODAY WHERE BLACKS ARE STILL MAIDS,BUTLERS,AND NANNYS TO RICH WHITE FAMILIES REMINDS ME OF SLAVERY DAYS ITS 2003 BUT BRAZIL STILL GOT ITS HEAD IN THE COTTON FIELDS AND PLANTATIONS.BRAZILIAN BLACKS STILL GOT THAT YES MASTER MENTALITY
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:15 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Guest
Anonymous
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Damn my system crashed too haha. Must be a bug in the system.
Marqueseazy, my name is Darren, which is at the bottom of my posts. I promise to register soon so you can keep-up.
I also doubt that any Brazilian would call me a mulatto man I look like Miles Davis and I love it. I love the skin I'm in and so do women.
I won't even touch that cursing your doing, because again you are the ignoramous not me.
But may I suggest a new hobby for you? One that doesn't involve this message board or even Brazil. I'd like to see you go to Brazil with this bullshit, you'd get your ass kicked for sho'. Get it together sleazy no one is listening anymore.
Oh and I love Brazil. My beautiful woman, mother of my child is Brazilian and she's a German Brazilian how you like them apples, we have a beautiful brown son haha. I know that shit eats you up haha.
Oh and there are several Black American nannies, maids, cleaning ladies, right here in America. We won't go back to the history lesson I gave you on the baffonary of some of our people man. You need to be honest, we are not saints in this perpetual game of stereotypes and we damn sure ain't free of racism within the black community and in America so kill the long-winded, ill-informed speeches. The fat lady is singing all over you, wake-up man and reach for a book while your at it. Me saying all of this doesn't mean I don't love being Black in fact it means I'm honest about our conditions WHICH ARE NOT THE SAME AS BLACK BRAZILIANS. OUR RACIAL ISSUES IN AMERICA ARE NOT THE SAME. Understand that sleazy and get over this hollier than thou bull you keep preaching. America is no rose on race til' this day.
Darren.
(Edited by Guest at 8:05 pm on Feb. 5, 2003)
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Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:52 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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MARQUESEAZY
Junior Member
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AMERICA HAS MANY BLACK OWNED CLOTHING LINES LIKE FUBU WHICH MEANS FOR US BY US AND I CANT FORGET SEAN JOHN'S NOW WHAT ABOUT BRAZIL HMMM?
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Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:58 pm on Feb. 5, 2003 | IP
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Brazzil Forum
How hard is to be Black in Brazil
