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Adrianerik


Newbie
   
My bad.  That link didn't work.  I forgot to capitalize some letters.  It is:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_US/COINTELPRO60s_WAH.html

Those of you older Brazilians will recognize that some of the practices are similar to the period from 1966 to the late 70's in Brazil.  (most of my friends in Ilha are lawyers and were students then and lost several friends during that period.)  It's interesting.  Because another very close friend in Rio is a retired military person....really nice guy....but very solemn when I press him about this period in Brazil.

peace

Marqueseazy - If the FBI wanted to recruit an 'agent provacateur' to continue tactics at divide and conquer they would recruit you.

There are major problems within the African-American community and they are discussed daily on Blackvoices.com, Blackplanet.com, TWBT.com (The Black World Today) and other sites.  Some of us have sold our souls to the god of Consumer Capitalism choosing to buy 'things' over helping people and we have deserted our people in the inner cities.  And our failure to join our voices in solidarity with those innocent Arabs here who were caught up in the new vicious fascism that this government has unleashed indicates many of us have now become "The White Man".  I choose not to discuss these things here because it would divert the focus of this site but they exist.

A question for you.  Are you personally involved with any social activist groups in your area?  Tutoring our kids?  Maybe adopting one?  Ending male violence against our women?  Encouraging responsible fatherhood?

I would like to hear about them.

Peace


Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:58 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Markysleazy:

“70% BLACK HUH THATS NOT WHAT MY FRIEND SAID WHEN HE WENT TO SAO PAULO HE SAID IT WAS MOSTLY WHITES AND JAPANESE EXPLAIN THAT HUH”

Y’know, you have the god given gift of shooting yourself in your own ass. I mean, here you are, ranting on and on (and on and on...) about how most Brazilians would be Black if they saw themselves the way Americans do. And when I agree with you and say that 70 percent of Brazil is Black, even adding in the explanation “by your standards at least”, you ask me what do I mean.

So tell me Marquey are most Brazilians “really” black or aren’t they? You can’t ahve it both ways...

Re: your friend’s story, this only highlights two things: 1) that you yourself have no first hand info about Brazil and 2) your friend only stayed in the center or business district and wasn’t a very good observer. São Paulo is the biggest NORTHEASTERN city in Brazil. The vast majority of its population is descended from immigrants from that region. By your hypodescendant lights, they are all black as they have far more than “one drop” of African blood in them. In fact, many of those “Japanese” your friend saw (most probably Chinese or Korean in this day and age) are also Black by the same logic. Many, many Asian-Brazilian paulistas are the result of mixed marriages.

“NOW WASHINGTON DC ON THE OTHER HAND IS 80% BLACK ITS WHAT US AFRICAN AMERICANS WOULD CALL A CHOCOLATE CITY.”

Over all, I found D.C. to be about as dark-skinned as Rio. So if D.C. is a “chocolate city”, so is Rio. São Paulo is perhaps a touch less, but also more Indian in comparison.

“I BET THE ONLY REASON THAT GERMAN BRAZILIAN WHITE WOMAN MARRIED YOU WAS SO SHE CAN BECOME AN AMERICAN CITIZEN BECAUSE BRAZILIAN WOMEN WHO COME TO AMERICA DO THAT ALL THE TIME.”

Spoken like a true redneck, Marquey. I’d like to thank you for once again showing that white people don’t have a lock-hold on ignorance and bigotry.

“IF THATS ALWAYS THE CASE THEN HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE ALMOST 1 MILLION BRAZILIANS LIVING IN THE U.S HUH.”

Sorry, again, MarqueyMark, but there are probably not even 1 million Brazilians living overseas, period. The last reputable stat I saw placed their numbers at around 500,000 in the States. The U.S. census counts far less than 100,000. Seeing as how there are around 150,000 Anglo-Americans living in Brazil, the gap isn’t all that wide when one takes into consideration the obvious money making opportunities to be had in the U.S.

Re: your disdain for immigrants, I hear the KKK is looking for volunteers to keep Amuricuh safe from the foreign threat, Marquey. Why don’t you sign up and integrate them?


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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:10 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Adrianerik,

It’s hardly an obsession to point out historical facts. I think Karenga is a murdering scumbag who killed his own under the direction of the FBI. If you’re uncomfortable with that, fine, but it would probably be more appropriate to talk about your obsession of avoiding the unsavory history of Kwanza’s inventor. While invention can be important to survival, it becomes dangerous when invented fantasy is used to cover up fact.

“I have heard forgiveness asked and forgiveness given.  And I’ve seen the community grow stronger because of this open exchange...”

I wonder what Carter and Higgins’ families would have to say about that. But whatever. My point isn’t that kwanza is a bad thing, or even that one can’t separate the message from the messenger. Like I said, if I were you, I’d light all the Kwanza candles I cared to. But I’d also make sure I lit an extra one for the souls of Bunchy and Jon. In spiritual matters, karma sticks.


“I even felt bad just saying COINTELPRO….folks don’t know what the hell I’m (we’re) talking about.”

Oh, but I do. I used to work with Ward Churchill. Ever hear of him?

“On the other hand, I have a small advantage (maybe…I don’t know your history) because I am not some 19 year old who read books about this issue.  And what I know comes from a very inside view.”

Either am I, sport. I’m a 36 year old who’s been busted 12 times for peace and justice work in the States. The last time I got worked over by Klan cops in New Orleans for 5 hours. I worked in the squatting movement in D.C. and NYC, was active at Big Mountain back during the ‘80s and was involved in far too many smaller initiatives and actions to go into here. The reason I started reading about this stuff was in order to make sense of WHY the FBI found it necessary to break into my roommate’s car and bug our phone when we were non-violent activists working for legal change. So it’s been a dog’s age since I was a naive 19 year old, cracking books on this subject and even then, my study stemmed from trying to make sense of practical experience, not the other way around.

So take it to the PSN chapter at Temple.

“I just feel that there is a bigger lesson for Brazilians in a thorough analysis of the Black Power Movement than a parochial analysis of Karenga.”

No one here is suggesting that Brazilians undertake such a parochial analysis. What I AM suggesting is that an analysis of Karenga’s past and some of the more unsavory aspects of black nationalism NEEDS to be discussed in Brazil at some point, if only so that we avoid making the same mistakes. Tell the truth, Adrianerik: you were surprised as hell that I even knew who Karenga WAS, let alone what he did. You were all set to pass him off as the unambiguously cool, afro-crunchy father of kwanza ‘til I had the bad form to bring up his unsavory past. And it occurs to me that in all the conferences I’ve attended here on race issues, I’ve never seen ONE black American activist like yourself bring up the problematic parts of the black nationalist past when talking to Brazilians. Brazilian activists are curious about what happened in the States in the ‘60s and you guys are in a great position to teach about this history, which I think we can both agree is important and vital. But it’s always the ol’ ofay here who ends up teaching classes on the Panthers ‘cause you folks seem to feel that it’s much more important to talk about stuff like kwanza. So the REAL knowledge that you guys have and that you could pass along far more effectively than I always seems to end up on the cutting room floor.

Perhaps this is because you folks have an ideology to sell and looking into this stuff is unpleasant and embarrassing? Ah, but if you want to escape the charge of imperialist proselytizer, Adrian, and really make use of your long experience, THIS is the kind of stuff you need to talk about, too. I can probably GET funding for you to come here and teach for a semester if you’d be interested in doing a class with me on something like this. Then you can tear me a new asshole ao vivo e em cores. ;-)

“I have met too many ‘gringos’ in Brazil who revise American history to suit their own purposes before a captivated but ignorant Brazilian audience...”

EXACTLY what I am talking about. Do you think Angela Gilliam, Francis Windance Twine, or Mike Hanchard mention this stuff in conferences down here? HELL NO!

“I have a very big issue with deviating on threads in which the lack of context causes more confusion than clarification.”

Having seen your performance here and your obvious intelligence, I really doubt that that’s your problem. I think you have an issue of orchestrating discussions so that they cause the political effect you desire. When they threaten to escape your control or show up some of the more problematic holes in your philosophy, well, that’s when your problems with “confusion” start.

“And it is Brazilians who, for lack of resources or sometimes lack of caring, who do not verify these things for themselves.”

Do you realize how patronizing your description of Brazilians sounds? Hell, if I were to say some of the things you said here, I’d be called a racist and rightly so! Whether or not the average Brazilian student has access to the same amount of information as you do, she is  no less intelligent or perceptive. I don’t think her mind needs to be treated with kid gloves or that history needs to be “spun” so that she gets the “proper” take on it. I think one can give her one’s version of the facts and let her decide for herself what’s true or not.

That said, the scene you describe doesn’t sound that unfamiliar to me. I wonder, however, how you were able to judge this “awe” that the girl in question was showing, as well as its supposed source, your American friend’s blond hair and blue eyes. Seeing as how I do have blue eyes and what passes for blond hair down here, inspiring this sort of awe in Brazilians would be a rather useful trick for me to learn. So far, my hair and eye color have gotten me nowhere in convincing people of the rightness of my opinions. I think you may have mistaken your Brazilian friend’s cultural tendency to take the side of people who are dear to her for racist indoctrination. As I’ve mentioned before, real family and friends are more important to most Brazilians than theoretical cries to peoplehood. So when loved ones say bullshit, sometimes folks here have the unfortunate tendency to nod their heads in agreement.

“The oppression of a people is multi-layered.”

No doubt. As Stuart Hall points out, however, these axis’s of oppression don’t line up pointing in the same neat way. As a working class white guy, I’m oppressed in class terms, but in racial terms, I have privilege. As an American Black man, presumably professional, you confront racial oppression but benefit from imperial privilege as compared to a Black Brazilian.

No one here has complained against cultural nationalist initiatives to improve the self-esteem of Black people. (Your channeling tendency is showing itself here again, BTW, as you fight against an opinion you WISH I held in order to avoid dealing with my clearly expressed opinion, which seems to cause you discomfort.) What I have said is that many self-image building projects on display in Salvador have been absorbed by the media in such a way that they end up REINFORCING stereotypes and IMPEDING other, smaller and perhaps more practical initiatives elsewhere. I am suggesting that without a wider view of things and CONCRETE LINKAGES into attempts to address power and wealth disparities, imageering will very likely create a Beneton world, where black faces beam down from billboards on stark black poverty below. I am suggesting that the creation of an Afro-Brazilian Disneyland in Salvador might not be the best way to tackle our country’s race problems. Unfortunately, such a project is highly lucrative and so it will likely continue.

Great example: the Governor of Salvador, one of the most corrupt men in Bahia, has levered his vote farming into a ministerial position in Lula’s government. But, hey! I bet Ilé Aye’s Carnaval show this year will be really uplifting to the Black spirit. It should be, given the cash the state government spends to make sure the voters stay happy with circuses, seeing as how there’s no bread to go around.

In short, I wish internationals would spend a little less time partying in Salvador and a little more time learning our constitution, history and political system – not to mention our language. This is hardly “disrespectful” of any community’s way of doing things down here.




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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:10 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
Like I said the issues are a bit deeper than that.  I'll leave it at that.  

I didn't need to 'look into it'.

I was in charge of one of the groups.  I carried a .22  I needed it and would have used it.  It was dangerous times and we really didn't know what we were doing.

The chaos of that time is an open book.  If anything I would consider this community (African-American) as self-critical, if not more, than many others.  Marqueseazy is the exception....not the norm when it comes to the African-Americans critique of themselve.

No....you didn't surprise me.  You raised suspicions.   Because Karenga has been a smokescreen used by the right wing conservatives....Tony Snow the most recent...to justify a completly imbalanced attack on the events of that time.  

And Karenga is used by my dear Socialist friends whose romanticism of the Panthers makes them teary-eyed.

There were NO gods.

The Back to Africa phase of the Black Nationalist Movement did introduce a level of sexism and chauvinism (black man is god ideology) that caused one of my dear friends (tricked into a polygamous yin-yang marriage) to lose her mind.  

The literary portion that gave rise to Nikki Giovanni, Sonia Sanchez, Larry Neal, Don L. Lee and others, literally saved the lives of young black college students...the first of their families to go to college...alone on recently integrated all-white campuses it gave an insulating bubble of self-esteem to these students.  gave birth to the development of the National Association of Black Journalists and gave feminist affirmation to a major component of these struggles.

The Panthers introduced the concept of non-racial solidarity on a world-wide level and the manipulations of economics on a world-wide scale.

They also introduced the art of 'revolutionary' extortion.  The defining and attacking of legitimate black businesses because these young kids had decided that they were bloodsucking the people.  The eventual degeneration of this into virtual low-level armed robbery.

Add to this milieu that the economic arm of the Black Nationalist movement stressed the creation of black businesses and you have a gang war that produced many more bodies than those of California.

There are not enough candles....

But you are the one who mentioned Kwanzaa and you mentioned Karenga.  Not I.  They, nor the Panthers, figure into anything that I've seen in Brazil, except as a footnote.  

So it goes.........

There are books enough about this period.  A friend of mine, Dr V.P. Franklin (teaches at Drexel University) has a good one on this time on The Black Power Movement.  

I did allow a generalization to slip through.  Mea culpa. However, nothing in the sentence mentioned the "capacity" of Brazilians to know this period.  So don't introduce it.  I don't roll with those types of statements.  You've never heard me make them.  But, from personal experience, I have refuted enough mis-information from Brazilians that they 'heard' from someone else.

Okay....gotta go.  

Peace

ps - I don't drink and neither do most of my friends.  (nothing religious....just the way it is).  I think I've been to the beach once in three years in Salvador.  Hate the clubs....maybe will go to an occasional concert.

I generally try to ignore your snipes.  But you really need to get off of this partying in Salvador kick.

Unless you are up in Liberdade seeing the community involvement of Ile Aye against illiteracy, aiding in the development of small business enterprises, in trying to upgrade the quality of education of the piss-poor schools they have there then you should get off of this Nordestino bigotry trip.

There is a group of 120 hard workers.  Only two are paid.  The others are volunteers.  They have no money to keep the phone working.  So they tie  a mobile phone to a string and share it among them (between the floors of the building).

And they are there....day in an day out for these busted young kids and girls.  24/7.  365 days a year.

I 'party' more in Rio than anywhere else.  

Peace


Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:44 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
@Macunaima - I've never heard of Angela Gilliam.  But I did hear of Hanchard.  He's from here.  I'm curious about his presentation there.

There is a romanticism going on now about the Black Power period.  On both sides.  Even a small back-to-africa component.  As well as the New Black Panther Party.  

I am wary of academic conferences.  I was supposed to attend the International conference on AIDs that was held in Rio last August.  But I arrived too late.  There tends to be bit more intensity to conferences when the topic is unambiguous, real and to the gut then those that might lead to pontificating.

okay....really gotta go


Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:11 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Iverson


Newbie
   
Macunaima , you are hater , to talk like this about Kawanzaa , is insult to every black person  , i just can`t get how you speak about black culture , when you are not black even ,  racism in brazil is real  you are acting as brazilians can`t be racist , when i see racist brazilian on you , who insulting every thing black including kawanzaa.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 8:38 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Hey Adrian,

If I was around and active back during those times, I would have walked around armed, too. From what I've heard and read and based on my own experiences in the (admittedly much less hyper) '80s, things were getting very out of hand.

Still... It doesn't take much in the way of character or pure human common sense to realize that killing the people who agree with you but who are a challenge to your leadership is a bad way to run a movement. That the FBI was jerking everybody around, I can understand. That mistakes were made, I can understand. But execution style slayings of the political opposition... Well, let's just say that I feel that to order that kind of thing  takes a character flaw of a very personal nature, FBI involvement or no.

Re: your critique of MarqueyMarque. Rest assured that I do not consider him typical in any way. I only point out to you some of the odd fellow travellers who are gathered together under your banner. When I was in Earth First, I was shocked to discover that a small but vocal minority of our comrades were, well to put it bluntly, racists and fascists. Ignoring people like that doesn't help make them go away. After I looked at a lot of what we were saying, I was able to understand how that stuff, in the right light, could appeal to nazis. So the folks whom I consider to be the responsible faction of Earth First rearranged their rhettoric. They lost a lot of redneck support, but hey: them's the breaks.

Re: the Panthers. I'm not an unquestioning fan of them, either. There were plenty of what Brazilians would call "marginais" in their ranks. Nor would I suggest that whatever good came out of that epoch be dumped down the toilet because of certain peoples' fascination with urban guerilla warfare and macho posturing. However, I think those things need to be met straight on and the record set clear. THAT'S the way to nail this world's Tony Snows.

"The literary portion that gave rise to Nikki Giovanni, Sonia Sanchez, Larry Neal, Don L. Lee and others, literally saved the lives of young black college students...the first of their families to go to college...alone on recently integrated all-white campuses it gave an insulating bubble of self-esteem to these students."

Nobody is denying that it did. But look at how you yourself schedule events: real change (i.e. school desegregation) made effective through the cultural support that followed. What I'm concerned with is the fact that we're getting all frosting and no cake, here. We get Afro-Reggae t-shirts, mas poder que é bom, ninguem quer dividir. We get to dance to african rythyms at Carnaval, but do we see more funds being put into schools in the favelas? Hell no!

"There are not enough candles.... "

One would do, as long as it were consistently lit.

"They, nor the Panthers, figure into anything that I've seen in Brazil, except as a footnote."

Actually, interestingly enough, Carlos Marigelha's Manual da Guerrilha Urbana inspired many of the Panther's methods. So while they don't figure into much of what occured in Brazil, the Brazilian left had a very concrete influence on them.

" I generally try to ignore your snipes.  But you really need to get off of this partying in Salvador kick."

You're right. Sorry for the snipe. You didn't deserve it.

Look, nobody I know in the Black movement in Rio is all that impressed with what's happening Salvador, for all that that city seems to attract 90 percent of the internationals' attention. And while you, personally, may not be much of a party guy, it does strike me - and almost everyone I've talked to - that most of the internationals we meet are attracted to the, shall we say, more spectacular phenomena generated by Brazil's anti-racist movements. I'd like to see a little more critique of why, exactly, the most ostentatiously black conscious state is in the hand of the most entrenched white plutocracy. I mean, doesn't that strike you as a contradiction? I'd like to see a little more stick-to-itness over the long haul, a more permanent enagement with the Brazilian polis on a number of levels.

Just once, I'd like to see a Black nationalist lawyer or sociologist take a couple years out of his life and dedicate himself to going through our mass of affirmative action and anti-racist laws in order to make sense of what the possibilities may exist for action. Frex, in the whole debate on affirmative action here, not once did a black american activist scholar ever even define for a Brazilian audience what affirmative action really was, despite the presence of dozens of these intellectuals during the debate. So we're now lost in this surreal warren of quota debates, as if this were the sum total of affirmative action. It's been an uphill struggle over the last two years to even get people to recognize that affirmative action and quotas are not necessarily the same thing. Meanwhile, the federal government led the entire black movement down an alleyway and mugged it. Now we have quotas. Whoopee. Come to find out that even with quotas, not a single person entered into carioca universities who wouldn't have gotten in under the old system. We have just suffered a crushing political defeat, but I suspect it's going to take some time for the reality of it all to sink in to some folk's heads.

And while all this was going on, where were the American Black Brazilianists who, more than anyone else, could have given Brazilian activists the benefit of their experience with similar issues in the States? Pushing for quotas and calling anyone who wasn't a racist! They could have talked about university admissions boards, about junking the vestibular system for an admissions system that, like the U.S. system, looks at grades AND other factors. They could've talked about bringing the community into admissions boards. All these things have been tried with varying degrees of success in the States and many of these self-same black american activists actually SIT on the affirmative action boards of their respective schools. But was there any exchange of ideas? Not as far as I can see. It got to the point where Angela Gilliam accused Peter Fry and Livio Sansone, two gentlemen who, while white, have probably done more than any two other Brazilian academics to place black students in the university, of being "the gate keepers of white priviledge".

"Unless you are up in Liberdade seeing the community involvement of Ile Aye against illiteracy, aiding in the development of small business enterprises, in trying to upgrade the quality of education of the piss-poor schools they have there then you should get off of this Nordestino bigotry trip."

Great stuff. So do you think they'll be working to kick ACM's fat ass out of the government anytime soon? Or do his tentacles reach down into the grass roots social groups as well? Has anyone even attempted to ask this question, I wonder? It's of great interest to people down here in Rio.

A call for self-critique is not bigotry. It would be bigotry if I were accusing the NE groups of wasting time and of not doing any substantial work. That has not been my point. My point is that the entire country needs to work harder on translating mobilization into real power and not just carnaval floats and media coverage. Salvador, because they have been at the forefront of the mediated black cultural scene, needs to engage in this kind of self-criticism a little bit more urgently than the rest of Brazil.

Sorry I've been obnoxious of late. It's hot, I'm sick, and I'm chained to this damned computer until I get these final translations done for the Museu Goeldi and the Smithsonian. I've been at this shit for weeks now and I really, REALLY need to get out of the house and do some of that beach bumming I accused you guys of doing. ;-)

An unrelated question: what do you think of Cynthis Mcwhorter's "Carry Me Home"? I just received a copy for review and I'm finding it to be a fascinating book on the Civil Rights Movement.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:49 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Iverson, what is so hateful about pointing out that Kwanza is an invented tradition that's American, not African?

As for its inventor, I don't like him, as you've probably guessed by now.

However, everything I've said has been cautiously SUPPORTIVE of Kwanza. I mean, if black folks think the need an ethnic boundary marker at the holiday season, cool. Just, as I said, don't try to tell me that it's some milenial African tradition.

So let me understand this: NOT hating translates into lying about what Kwanza is and turning a blind eye to what it's inventor did?

I don't get it. Enlighten me.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:53 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
To put Hanchard and Gilliam in the same boat is a bit unfair as Hanchard is intellectually a hell of a lot more honest than Gilliam. But the whole Hanchard/Fry debate was taken up by Gilliam in a really unfair way. And people sometimes forget that Hanchard himself is a relative neophyte when it comes to race in Brazil. I have an article I wrote about this whole debate that I'd be happy to pass along to you for your critique if you feel you have the time to lok it over.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:57 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
Absolutely!  Send it to Adrianerik@aol.com


Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:34 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
70% OF BRAZIL AINT BLACK ITS 45% I HAVE SEEN IT ON THE CENSUS BUT IT ALSO SAIS ON THE CENSUS THAT ONLY 6% OF THAT 45% CONSIDER THEMSELVES BLACK SO IF YOU CONSIDER ONLY THE BRAZILIANS WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE BLACK THEN BRAZIL HAS ONE OF THE SMALLEST POPULATION OF BLACKS OUT THERE.THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WASHINGTON DC AND RIO IS THAT IN DC BLACKS DONT HAVE AN IDENTITY CRISIS AND THEY ALL KNOW THEY ARE BLACK BUT YOU CANT SAY THE SAME FOR THANG FOR RIO CAUSE EVERY BLACK CARIOCA THERE WILL BE CLAIMING SOMETHING ELSE.AMERICANS IN GENERAL WHETHER BLACK WHITE,OR HISPANIC WILL NEVER PRACTICE THIS MULATTO BULLSHIT THAT YALL BRAZILIANS PRACTICE.LIKE I SAID EVEN THE LIGHTIEST SKINNED AFRICAN AMERICANS STILL CONSIDER THEMSLEVES AS BEING BLACK LIKE FOR EXAMPLE HALLE BERRY,BOB MARLEY,PRINCE,MARIO VAN PEEBLES,VANESSA L. WILLIAMS,LISA BONET ARE ALL MIXED BUT YOU DONT SEE THEM IDENTIFY AS MULLATTOES CAUSE THEY ARE BLACK JUST LIKE ME MY FATHER IS WHITE BUT MY MOM WHO IS AFRICAN AMERICAN TAUGHT ME TO IDENTIFY AS BLACK AND I AM PROUD TO SAY I DO.I BET NOT A SINGLE CAST MEMBER FROM THE MOVIE CIDADE DE DEUS CONSIDERS THEMSELVES BLACK SO CIDADE DE DEUS IS NOT CONSIDERED A BLACK MOVIE ITS CONSIDERED A MULATTO MOVIE BRAZIL WILL NEVER HAVE A PRO BLACK MOVIE LIKE MALCOLM X,DO THE RIGHT THANG,AND GET ON THE BUS JUST TO NAME A FEW.BRAZIL WILL NEVER HAVE BLACK LEADERS WITH A VOZ ATIVA LIKE A SPIKE LEE,A MALCOLM X,A MARTIN LUTHER KING JR,A JESSE JACKSON,A JOHN SINGLETON,A 2PAC SHAKUR,OR A LOUIS FARAKKAN,OR A NELSON MANDELA,OR A BISCHOP TUTU.WHERE IS THE BRAZILIAN VERSION OF THE NAACP HUH?OUT OF ALL OF THE GREAT BLACK LEADERS OF THE WORLD NON OF THEM WERE BRAZILIANS EXPLAIN THAT HUH BRAZIL AFROCENTRIC MY ASS IT NEVER HAS BEEN AND IT NEVER WILL BE AMERICA,CUBA,JAMAICA,HAITI,TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO,THE BAHAMAS,THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC,PANAMA,BARBADOS,SOUTH AFRICA,NIGERIA,ANGOLA,SENEGAL,AND MANY OTHERS ARE WAY MORE AFROCENTRICS THEN BRAZIL AND THEY WOULD PUT BRAZIL TO SHAME WHEN IT COMES TO AFROCENTRICS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM AND BRAZIL IS THAT IN THOSE COUNTRIES THEY ACTUALLY CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE BLACK UNLIKE BRAZIL.BRAZIL IS THE FIRST AND ONLY MULATTO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD SO THATS THE ONLY THANG THAT MAKES BRAZIL STAND OUT FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD.SALVADOR IS NOT THE BLACK ROME ITS THE MULATTO ROME AND THAT BAND CALLED CIDADE NEGRA SHOULD BE CALLED CIDADE MULATTA LOL

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:54 pm on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Guest



Anonymous
   
Ah, Marqueseasy,

if you didn't exist someone would have to invent you.

Keep typing. Don''t give up. You are a delight.

Your fan

A mulatto Brazilian on the sideline

(Edited by Guest at 1:38 pm on Feb. 7, 2003)

Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 1:37 pm on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Estudante de Ingles


Newbie
   
Marqueseasy for president of Brazil !
At this Carnival, let's give him the key of the Rio de Janeiro City. Are you fat, Marquês Easy?
A hero of this forum. A man with a strong opinion. I respect you, Marquês Easy!

God bless you. And God is brazilian.



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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 1:46 pm on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
YEAH SURE GOD IS BRAZILIAN AND BILL CLINTON IS NIGERIAN LOL

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:57 pm on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
Estudante de Ingles


Newbie
   
Really? I did'nt  know that...




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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 6:21 pm on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
YUP AND BRAD PITT IS MEXICAN AND MICHAEL JORDAN IS RUSSIAN

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:31 pm on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
Estudante de Ingles


Newbie
   
living and learning...

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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 7:22 pm on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
HERE'S SOMETHING ELSE YOU SHOULD KNOW MIKE TYSON IS KOREAN AND JULIA ROBERTS IS FROM THE REPUBLIC OF CONGO LOL

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:09 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
And you are from fucking Mars, Marquesleazy.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:10 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Estudante de Ingles


Newbie
   
Caro Professor Macu:

Não obstante os atritos passados, espero em Deus que o rancor não seja uma de suas qualidades. E sabendo do seu perfeito domínio da Última Flor do Lácio, inculta e bela,  como bom estudante de inglês, imploro-te alguns esclarecimentos ( isto serve para qualquer outro esgrimista do inglês ):

fucking mars significa que o deus Marte era um grande fodedor, que comia todas as Deusas do Olimpo.

fucking mars significa que o deus Marte era um famoso pederasta entre as divindades gregas

fucking mars significa que o planeta Marte é um lugar muito esquisito, onde ninguém é de ninguém, e de lá veio, além do bonequinho verde da Veja, um outro bonequinho chamado Marquês Easy, a man with a strong opinion.

Aguardo resposta.






(Edited by Estudante de Ingles at 3:45 pm on Feb. 10, 2003)

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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 6:01 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Estudante de Ingles


Newbie
   
Let's  try to understand  Portuguese, gente fina.
It's impossible underStand Brazil without Portuguese.

Os milagres são efeitos especiais de Deus
A. Jabor

Eu estava com medo de não gostar de "Deus é brasileiro". Pensava: "Esse
filme-fábula, 'de estrada', mostrando paisagens e povoados brasileiros, em
meio a este mundo pós-pós , sob o ritmo delirante das grandes produções
americanas de ação e porrada, sei não, esse filme pode estar na contramão,
fora de época...".

Também, como vários filmes brasileiros ótimos ("Cidade de Deus", "Edifício
Master", "Madame Satã" denunciaram fortemente nossas anomalias, narrados
com a fúria de "mise-en-scènes" vertiginosas, pensei que o filme de Cacá
talvez ficasse "leve demais".

Aí, fui ver o filme e, além de gostar, tive vontade de chorar e percebi: eu
estava com uma bruta saudade do Brasil e não sabia. "Deus é brasileiro" não
denuncia nada, não reclama de nada; apenas mostra a grande riqueza de nossa
pobreza, a discreta poesia de nossas precariedades, a beleza humana de
"contradições" e atrasos que o progresso "moderno" condena como
"inferiores".

Há muitas maneiras de se amar um país. Alguns amam seus países com febre e
orgulho, com arrogância bélica, com arrancos sanguíneos de patriotas. Mas
há uma maneira de amar o Brasil que é mais frugal, mais carinhosa,
sossegada, mesmo na contemplação de nossos defeitos, compreendendo a
poética do atraso, como só grandes escritores, músicos e cineastas sacam,
como Guimarães Rosa, que recusou generalizações políticas e descobriu a
psicologia dos campos gerais e de seus "miguilins", como Tom Jobim entre
passarinhos e florestas e, no cinema, Cacá Diegues, que sempre amou a
pátria não como mãe, mas como filha, tão humilde, tão pobrezinha, tão
desamparada... Por isso, vi o filme e percebi que estava morrendo de
saudade do Brasil, saudade das beiras de rio, das canoas furadas, dos azuis
de anil tosco, dos rosas desmaiados nas fachadas das casinhas, das músicas
toscas, da linguagem errada dos falantes, da paisagem como personagem. E,
mais ainda, estava com saudade do ritmo brasileiro de narrar, saudade do
"era uma vez", do "então", do "aí", do ritmo narrativo que flui da lentidão
da cultura sem alfabeto, das estradas sem condução, do ritmo que não
obedece às leis do espetáculo mercantil. "Deus é brasileiro" tem o canto de
um "causo" contado, tem as hesitações do papeador da vendinha da beira da
estrada. Aí reside sua beleza.

O ritmo americano que tomou o mundo, no cinema e no cotidiano, quer nos
dominar tanto quanto as bombas de Bush, nosso Hitler globalizado. Trata-se
de um ritmo paranóico e ansioso que não deixa buraco para nenhuma reflexão,
nenhum vazio, pois no vazio pode entrar a liberdade e a discordância. É
preciso que nada pare, que ninguém se livre da enxurrada das receitas e
certezas que nos empurram: a otimização, a eficiência, a rapidez dos fluxos
de capital. Esse ritmo não invade apenas os bancos e o mercado. Invade
nosso tempo para amar, para ler, para não fazer nada. O tempo nos é imposto
como uma obrigação produtiva. O ritmo é a mensagem. "Deus é brasileiro" nos
devolve o tempo que nos roubaram.

O conjunto dos atores também emociona. Temos Antônio Fagundes, o prodigioso
suporte para qualquer personagem, temos a participação de lendas vivas do
Cinema Novo, como o grande Hugo Carvana, inventor de um estilo, como
Castrinho, filho da chanchada e do teatro de revista, como o Stepan
Nercessian, outro inventor de tipos brasileiros. E temos os jovens atores
como os malazartianos Wagner Moura e Bruce Gomlevski, iluminados pela
beleza de Paloma Duarte e da inteligência que faísca em seus olhos.

Finalmente, apesar da sabotagem de oportunistas e/ou ignorantes radicais da
esquerda burra ou de provocações de jornalistas militantes imaginários, o
filme tem um parentesco com o tempo de esperanca que começa com o governo
Lula, que, depois de oito anos de oposição albanesa ou coreana, parece ter
entendido que a adesão às causas do Brasil pode ser feita não através de
vinganças, rupturas e ressentimentos - mas de integração e tolerância. A
expressão "paz e amor" é muito mais profunda que um slogan de campanha.

Creio que o PT compreendeu que o país precisa de um olhar de amor, de paz,
para reencontrar nosso ritmo, nossos rostos, nossa cultura. Lula e o PT
parecem ter entendido que, com nossa tradição autocrática e oligárquica, o
regime mais revolucionário no Brasil é a democracia. Ela, por si só,
ajudará a corroer nossa tradições corruptas, injustas e arrogantes, pois
democracia é o amor à diferença. E o filme de Cacá é premonitório, pois nos
fala da tolerância para nossas imperfeições, fala que o verdadeiro milagre
brasileiro não é feito de mercados a pleno vapor, mas que milagre de
verdade é a sobrevivência cultural desse povo, debaixo de 400 anos de
exploradores.

E apesar de falar do tosco, o filme é de rara qualidade tecnológica:
Super-35mm, som dolby digital incrível, computação nas trucagens perfeitas,
mas tudo a serviço de uma poética brasileira. Surgem efeitos especiais
tropicais - não são foguetes espaciais que se chocam, nem homens-aranha
voando, nem supermetralhadoras fálicas, mas toda a técnica moderna criando
o milagre dos peixes, das flores, das cachoeiras, de Paloma flutuando nas
ruas.

O cinema, desde sua invenção, sempre foi uma busca de milagre, tentando
apreender o mistério do real no nitrato de prata. "Deus é brasileiro" nos
mostra que somos um milagre. E os milagres são os efeitos especiais de Deus.















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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 6:12 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Pedro


Newbie
   
Jabor é o comuna-festivo mais lírico do Brasil. Ele arruma suas fantasias de um jeito tão bonitinho que até fico com pena de desmanchar... mas vamos ao trabalho!


"sob o ritmo delirante das grandes produções            americanas de ação e porrada"

"Trata-se de um ritmo paranóico e ansioso que não deixa   buraco para nenhuma reflexão, nenhum vazio"

O cinema americano é assim porque, ao contrário do brasileiro, ele é orientado ao mercado. Aliás, é justamente por este prosaico motivo que os produtores americanos tem dinheiro para fazer seus filmes, e os brasileiros não tem. No dia em que resolvermos fazer filmes mais comerciais, ao invés daquela lenga-lenga de querer mostrar que bandidos e terroristas são heróis oprimidos, as bilheterias com certeza vão melhorar, haverá mais financiamento e boas idéias poderão sair da gaveta.


"O ritmo americano que tomou o mundo, no cinema          e no cotidiano, quer nos dominar tanto quanto as bombas de Bush, nosso Hitler globalizado..."

Porra meu! Que viagem. Bush está mais para sherife de cidadezinha do que para Hitler.


"É preciso que nada pare, que ninguém se livre da          enxurrada das receitas e certezas que nos empurram: a otimização, a eficiência, a rapidez dos fluxos de capital"

E isto é mal? Querer ser eficiente e progredir é mal?

"Lula e o PT parecem ter entendido que, com nossa tradição utocrática e oligárquica, o regime mais revolucionário no Brasil é a democracia"

Corrupção não tem a ver com regime político, e no nosso caso, a democracia até ganhou da ditadura em termos de roubalheira. Essa ingenuidade deriva da crença de que só os ricos é que são corruptos, e o povão é bonzinho e inocente... quem foi mesmo que inventou o jeitinho?

Total Posts: 17 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:38 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Estudante:

Nesye caso, a palavra "fucking" está sendo usado como o bom e velho adjetivo universal. ;-)

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:02 pm on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
Jabor um comuna? Em que mundo? Ele pode ter enchido o saco de ouvir abobrinha dos seus companheiros do "Manhatan Connection" e ter se tornado azedo em relação aos E.U.A., mas Jabor é tão comuna quanto Jarbas Passarinho.

De fato, filmes americanos são muito "pipoca", raramente sai alguma coisa que mereça o tempo a eles destinado.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:22 pm on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Ahn, a cinema america é uma bosta.

Fora, é claro, a obra dos Irmãos Coen, Woody Allen, Ridley Scott...

Peraí, tem um monte de americanos que são bom de cinema! Será que a gente 'tá reagindo ao fato que eles tem uma indústria cinematográfica que é tão grande e tão rica que poem produzir toneladas de besteirol ALÉM de filmes bons...?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:38 am on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
Não, a reação é ao fato de que nossos circuitos de cinema quase que só passam besteirol americano. Tudo bem que eu ficaria mais irritado se tivesse que assistir filmes indianos, mas ainda assim o cinema americano deixa muito a desejar em relação ao europeu ou ao iraniano.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:12 am on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
Ze you generalize the 'American Film Industry'.  

For each 1 film that those who control Brazilian media  allows into Brazil through their cousins....the 40 to 50 jerks who 'control'  American media  there are hundreds of great movies that have limited showing or are shown through the independent film festival circuit.

So, how do you define the American Movie Industry?

For us....the works of the mass multitudes of independent filmmakers and small studios are American Cinema.  And so far the exchange of creativity in the mass cinema between the countries has been purely on a profit basis (the big blockbusters).  There is a big enough market here for some of the smaller budget films to survive but I doubt that you would ever see them in Brazil.  Perhaps.  I don't know if your cable stations get the Bravo or Sundance channels.  

I don't watch much TV.

The cinema images Brazilians receive are as much manipulated and filtered by the media gatekeepers as are the images received of Brazil by the American public.

Peace

ps - I love Iranian cinematography but their stories tend to be cutesy folksy allegories.  Like an Iranian LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRE.  

And when you say Europe do you MEAN all of Europe or are you making a distinction between the works coming out of England and that of France and that of Germany and the emerging cinema from the other countries.
They are very different and range from the mediocre to the superb.

(I know that this is all a matter of personal preference but just wanted you to expand your explantations a bit).  There are many American movies that I've seen where 'pipoca' is the last thing on my mind.

Sorry - Estudante - I read Portuguese much better than I write it.


Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:26 am on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
@Macunaima - I didn't mean to blow you off on an earlier post about the course.

It's just that I am a big critic of folks who assume a level of authority above their background and don't want to be a hypocrite about that.  

One of the biggest problems in post-colonial nations are academicians trained as....let us say....philosophers...also feeling that they should be project managers of the Water department....or some other area.

My academic background is electrical engineering, with Masters in Computer Science and MBA.  My other experience comes from involvement as Coordinator of Communications and Cultural Coordinator with several groups in Philadelphia a few years before the Mumia Abu Jamal incident.

It was an area that required one to keep abreast of everyone else's move in order to counter it or respond to it.  In a way it also helped to foster a respect for the other side's opinions.  When I look at let us say....the Press Secretary for Clinton or Bush I know their difficulty because in order to lie they need the know the truth.

Don't know if I want to get into the money thing but have no problem freely assisting in an outline of that period, from what I know....not as an academic authority.

Also might be possible for someone from Brazil to deliver a paper and/or particpate in a panel discussion at any one of the October or March conferences.

Would like to sit in on one of the classes at your school.

Peace

Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:23 am on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Hey, I don't want to be a manager, far from it. I'd rather just philosophize away all day long. Unfortunately, the university has been and still is Brazil's primary social testing ground so I'm involved in this whether I like it or not. Happily, race, ethnic studies and nationalism are right up my alleyway as that's what I specialize in, so...

It's the monumental bad faith that's being demonstrated on all sides of the "racism in Brazil" debate that appalls me the most. There's hardly any historical perspective being shown. People just take their rhetorical ball and run with it. Oddly enough, in this debate I'm one of the few people who CAN open my mouth. Many of my black colleagues are against quotas but won't say anything as it might jepordize their alreadyuncertain positions in academia. Many of my white colleagues won't say anything for fear of being called a racist. I, however, have no position that I can really lose, so I'm in the enviable position of being able to call them like I see them. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that history will bear me out on the fact that quotas are a tremendous tarbaby, so I'm not too worried about being outspoken on this  issue.

One thing that's struck me is the MAJOR difference  that one sees between the Movement's public rhetoric around quotas and what members say over beers at night. Everyone is out there on the battle lines screaming, but in private most people I've talked to agree that quotas are simply a shuck, a piss-poor idea that will be next to impossible to effectively implement. Why are they wasting their breath on the issue, then? Simple: it gives folks a great public stage from which to denounce racism. In that sense, I welcome the battle over quotas and hope it leads to better things.

What really annoys me, however, are certain self-annointed movement leaders who come to our school and trash on black students who speak out against quotas. Every seminar and public debate we've had on this issue has seen some semi-professional militant call certain non-quota supporting black students "brainwashed" simply because these kids have tried to tell them what the score was based on their own personal experience. As one of my black colleagues, Ana Maria, puts it: "I had to bust my ass to get in here and I did it because I was GOOD. Now, with the quota law, everyone will say it was because I was black, as if I needed one more reason for employers to discriminate against me. And to add injury to the insult, the quotas aren't even bringing in appreciably more black students. So at the end of the day, my being at IFCS, which was once seen as 'a victory against the odds' will now be transformed into the fruit of a political gimme."

As for you coming down here, it would be great for students to talk to someone who actually went through the black nationalist movement in its armed propaganda stage. I'll keep my eye open for opportunities. Maybe during black history month in November some year...

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:10 pm on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
Oh.....I wasn't refering to you.

I'll be living in Salvador (quiet.....say not a word against them) for the next 1 year at least.  Maybe two if my dear president gets too trigger-happy.

With the advent of the digital video camera and computers with video editing any individual with decent skills can give the big media boys a run for their money.

Anybody with a computer could stream video to others and become their own production company.  (Brazil does have a bandwidth problem though).

So....might try to turn a few of these future leaders of Brazil into filmmakers.

We'll see.........


Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:16 pm on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
So let me specify then, I don't like the comercial movies that arrive here. As to the european movies that arrive here, they are so rare that I won't bother to discern their nationalities.
If you call the american movie industry the mass number of independent films, then I confess that I'm ignorant...

... and a little bit skeptical to.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:23 pm on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
cool. If all goes well, I may be up there in August as I'm apllying to attend a racism workshop being hosted by UFBA. Seeing as how the scholarships are going on an affirmative action basis, however, I'll probably be last in line for cash. Still, some white people always get picked and if I don't toss my hat into the ring, I'm only guaranteed to not get the money.

You might check into this course. It's a month long and all the major lights in Brazilian race and ethnic studies will be giving lectures. The idea is to inform students of basic issues in race and ethnicity in Brazil from as wide a range of academic backgrounds as possible.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:27 am on Feb. 12, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
@Ze - my definition of anything is the populist definiiton.

I actually agree with you on a particular level of comparisons.  And so do many Americans as they slowly begin to avoid the junk coming out of Hollywood and search for things of more substance.

It's easy to prove.  Just log onto the Sundance site or the Toronto film festivals site or the Philadelphia Festival of World Cinema's site and many others and determine how many of the 'American' films are of the special effects-action movies genre (type) and how many have great stories, great characters and delve into unexplored areas of the human emotion.  

I try not to reward the rich and powerful as being representative of the people(or representative of the industry) just because they are rich and powerful and have the money to release movies in 3000 theatres at a time while the independents and small studios have to rely on perhaps 5 theatres total at a time.

Even in music for every hip-hop garbage on the radio there are perhaps five (I'm guessing the number) hip-hop artists who are underground who do NOT sell their souls to the record industries and are actually in cultural war with those artists who think that violence and anti-woman lyrics are necessary.  (thought I'd throw that in)

But their days are numbered.  Eventually the lack of a good story....the lack of credible characters causes their house of cards to fall upon itself.  There is only but so many ways that you can film a car chase, explode a building or blow up a boat.

These fat cats destroyed the gun-slinging cowboy movies.  They destroyed the horror movie.  They are destroying the space ship movies.  They are running out of the "cute no-acting young white kids in danger" scenarios or the "cute no-acting young whites kids having sex scenarios".

And now they are coming to the Independents.  Looking for ideas.

The problem is that while the American public is slowly turning against this crap they know that the world is still into this "Americana trash" and they dump it into the Caribbean, Mexico, even the Middle East.

The same as how another group here claims to fight against cancer by changing their cigarettes while they push the worst of these cancer sticks in Asia and Europe.

Okay....I'm ranting.  Haven't had my breakfast.  (you see why Gringos need to eat breakfast.........)

Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:57 am on Feb. 12, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
You forgot one essential thing on your logic, memory is short...

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:43 pm on Feb. 12, 2003 | IP
mooseboy84


Newbie
   
you know, i always love when intellectuals and "learned" men can bend over backwords at every chance to attack black people and black culture. in america or otherwise.
constructive criticism is one thing, a full fledge attack is another.

how many in brazil are catholics? at least 50% if not more.


why do all you christians and catholics celebrate a holiday that has nothing to do with the birth of jesus?

the bible never states when jesus was born. most biblical scholars esitmate he was born in the fall. [assuming he was ever born in the first place]

if you celebrate christmas your celebrating a Pagan holiday of worshiping the winter solstice.  
it was a pope that made christmas dec 25 based on a roman pagan holiday that had been celebrated milleniums before anyone heard of jesus christ.

what does this day have to do with jesus?

should chritians and catholics around the world stop celebrating it?

i think they should. especially if you consider all the murders and deaths and tortures that have been conducted under the direction of, and while condoned by catholic popes.


(Edited by mooseboy84 at 4:02 am on Feb. 19, 2003)

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<<because i f**kin said so>>

Total Posts: 12 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:57 am on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
Brazzuca


Newbie
   
My, my... Americans lecturing Brazilians on race! Whatever next?

A prominent American (I think a vice president) once advised: "always watch what people do, not what they say they do".

I think his advise is particularly pertinent and instructive to much of the debate regarding how Americans and Brazilians view, and act toward, race.

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 7:17 am on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
Try burning books like Hitler did, you'll drastically decrease the number of learned and intellectuals in your country.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:48 am on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
IF THERE WAS EVER A WAY OF BLACKS EXPRESSING THEMSELVES ITS THROUGH HIP HOP MUSIC RAPPERS LIKE NWA,PUBLIC ENEMY,AND 2PAC MAY HAVE BEEN CONTROVERSIAL BUT THEY HAD TO BE TO GET THEIR POINT ACROSS PLUS THEY ARE PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF SPEECH ANOTHER PERK THAT WE HAVE HERE IN THE U.S

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:03 am on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
mooseboy84


Newbie
   

Quote: from Ze on 8:48 am on Feb. 19, 2003
Try burning books like Hitler did, you'll drastically decrease the number of learned and intellectuals in your country.



wtf are you talking about?

i made my statement in regards to mancunimai and his remarks about kwanzaa. he made the statement that he would not want to celebrate a festival by a murder like karenga was, and that kwanzaa has nothing to do with africa.

thats why i ask the question why should christians celebrate a religon that has nothing to do with the birth of christ, especially considering the things that popes have done and condoned.

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<<because i f**kin said so>>

Total Posts: 12 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 1:18 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Well, Mooseboy, seeing as how I'm hip to the bullshit behind the church, you can bet your sweet ass that I don't celebrate X-mas, either.

As for Kwanza being African, it just manifestly ain't. X-mas is a European rite based on prior pagan rituals that celebrates the birth of a Jewish messiah. The people who claim that it's anything else are just as much fools (IMHO) as the folks who claim Kwanza is African.

Look, celebrate whatever you want, OK? I'm just picky about my rituals and magic, which is one of the reasons you don't catch me in church praying for the health of Hizholiness the Pope.

As for "Black culture", sorry, I don't see it anywhere, just like I don't see "White culture". Culture doesn't have a color and if you think I'm talking out of my ass on this, then I'd like you to enlighten me as to what you mean by "Black" culture.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:04 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
BLACK CULTURE CAN ANYBODY SAY HIP HOP AND R&B WHICH BLACKS CREATED AND IT STARTED IN THE BRONX IN THE LATE 70'S AND NOT TO MENTION ROCK N ROLL BUT ELVIS STOLE THAT FROM US.WE ALSO CREATED JAZZ TO WHICH IS KING IN NEW ORLEANS WHICH HAPPENS TO BE 65% BLACK.SOUL FOOD IS PART OF OUR CULTURE TOO

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:54 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
Boricua


Newbie
   
I need clarity here. Damnit I said I'd stay away from here.

Macunaima, now I agree "culture" has no race. I think America has culture, things we do ritualistically, and was carved by the American way. Now being that there are Blacks in America like Latins, of course they contributed to American culture, like so many immigrants and settlers here. Am I making any sense here? No there is not Black culture or White culture per se lol, but I do know what Black and White Americans mean when they say these things. It's an odd thing to say, but it's the constant bickering between the two groups of people. Whites hate Blacks and vice verse, and it's always about who created what lol and how much worth the other has over the other. A never ending cycle, that sadly many Latin/Hispanics have gotton themselves into. It's truly The AMERICAN WAY lol. But I agree culture has no color, because Americans have their own culture like Brazilians etc and it doesn't matter that one person is White, Black, Asian, Native American.

Now Marque, a correction. Hip-Hop/Rap was actually inspired by Reggae music and artists. The style of rapping, how rapping itself came about. Hip-Hop (which most people who don't get are confused by) ventured from the Bronx, breakdancing, lingos, clothes, and everything that made Hip-Hop a culture. People often confuse rap music with the Hip-Hop culture lol, it's an included part, but not the whole. It's a style of dress, the way people move, live, and speak. I mean how else can Japanese who don't speak a word of English sing alon to their favourite rapper or even know to dress a certain way. Hip-Hop doesn't belong to any one group, Blacks and Latins help to birth it, but once you create anything it's bound to draw people who didn't see it's growing process. Again so much territorial bullcrap goes on that the whole point gets missed. Just my opinion though and so off topic.


Culture has no color.

Total Posts: 25 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:44 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
mooseboy84


Newbie
   

Quote: from Macunaima on 5:04 pm on Feb. 19, 2003
Well, Mooseboy, seeing as how I'm hip to the bullshit behind the church, you can bet your sweet ass that I don't celebrate X-mas, either.

As for Kwanza being African, it just manifestly ain't. X-mas is a European rite based on prior pagan rituals that celebrates the birth of a Jewish messiah. The people who claim that it's anything else are just as much fools (IMHO) as the folks who claim Kwanza is African.

Look, celebrate whatever you want, OK? I'm just picky about my rituals and magic, which is one of the reasons you don't catch me in church praying for the health of Hizholiness the Pope.

As for "Black culture", sorry, I don't see it anywhere, just like I don't see "White culture". Culture doesn't have a color and if you think I'm talking out of my ass on this, then I'd like you to enlighten me as to what you mean by "Black" culture.



christmas was never, "based on prior pagan rituals that celebrates the birth of a Jewish messiah."
it was turned into a holiday by pope pius I.  he made it dec 25, which was a day that romans celebrated saturnailia. in other parts of europe they celebrated the winter solstice and other gods.
heres a link from a christian site.
http://www.biblestandard.com/q_a/Questions_Answers_C_23.htm



http://www.m-w.com
culture
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"5 a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man's capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a company or corporation"

theres an american culture, theres black culture, and theres boston irsih culture or subculture[s] if you want to be more proper.

from that definition, anyone of with a little common sense will be able to extrapolate a meaning of what 'black culture' is. since i dont feel like typing a 1000 word post, then ill give you a few links, like the
schomburg center for starts.
http://www.nypl.org/research/sc/sc.html



(Edited by mooseboy84 at 8:18 pm on Feb. 19, 2003)

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<<because i f**kin said so>>

Total Posts: 12 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 8:08 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
THEY WERE INSPIRED BY REGGAE MUSIC WHICH ORIGINATES FROM JAMAICA AND WHAT IS THE DOMINANT RACE IN JAMAICA ITS BLACKS SO EITHER WAY YOU LOOK AT IT HIP HOP STILL ORIGINATED FROM US BLACKS FOLKS CAUSE LAST TIME I CHECKED JAMAICANS LOOK JUST LIKE US AFRICAN AMERICANS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THE ACCENT

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:34 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
Boricua


Newbie
   
I digress Marque, perhaps you missed what I said. I never said it wasn't a creation by Blacks, but it's not a soley Black creation. Latins actually did help, as well as Jamaicans.

Now I know you like to claim all that is Black but with that causes friction, because last I check the entire carribean had it's own culture, different and separate than America's and any other place. Jamaicans in fact don't eat the same way say a Black American does. So please spare me this "well if a Black created, then it's "we" cause that's weak water in my eyes. That's like me claiming all that Mexico did, just because they are of the Latin diaspora. I'm Puerto Rican and although it's politically correct to say "we Latins" I do know that we are culturally all different. Mexico and Puerto Rico don't eat the same, or speak the same Spanish, just like Spain and Columbia and so on. So in that I feel some respect should be given to the different cultural views of each country.

Oh and not all Jamaicans look like African-Americans just like not all African-Americans look like Africans, they are just as diverse. There are Japanese Jamaicans, White Jamaicans, etc. And what does the average Black look like? I doubt you'd be able to say, because there is no one set look.

Sometimes Marque I think you do more harm with your comments to "your" people than you do helping.

Do you actually re-read your posts? Do you read all the posts you respond to completely? Because if you had then you wouldn't have responded to me as if I didn't agree with you.

Total Posts: 25 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:20 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
YEAH NOT ALL JAMAICANS ARE BLACK BUT THE MAJORITY OF THEM ARE AND BY THE WAY WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW A WHITE JAMAICAN REGGAE ARTIST TRY NEVER

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:34 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
ITS NOT LIKE THERE IS A BUNDLE OF BLOND HAIRED BLUE EYED JAMAICANS.AND BY THE WAY IF I WENT TO JAMAICA I GUARANTEE YOU I WONT STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB.I MEAN ITS JAMAICA NOT MONTANA FOR CRYING OUT LOUD

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:45 pm on Feb. 19, 2003 | IP
Brazzuca


Newbie
   
Back to the Brazil "blacks" and race question:

Man, if I was "white" and racist against "blacks", heck, the idea of marrying a "black" and producing mongrel kinds with her would disgust me. And if I was a "black" who hated "whites", then I sure as hell wouldn't think of marrying one and producing kids with her.

So maybe a syllogism can be employed here. If it can be fairly assumed that people who discriminate racially don't marry those against whom they discriminate, and since Brazil is the most miscegenated country on earth, then how on earth can the people (Brazilians of German and Japanese descent excepted) be considered racist?

Also, if I was a Brazilian "black" who wanted to marry a Brazilian "white" and thereby "marry up", why should I assume that the Brazilian "white" would want to "marry down" my marrying me? How would that make any sense: "Here's the deal, Brazilian "white": if you marry me, I'll get to 'marry up' while you'll get to 'marry down'. Fair deal? Interested? Any takers?"

Question: how do you Aryanize a nation by de-Aryanizing it? How do you purifiy the "white" race by diluting it? Obviously a people who think like this cannot be expected to be taken seriously on the matter, since they themselves don't take the matter seriously.

How on earth can the Brazilians be considered racist when their actions over the last five hundred years (German and Japanese Brazilians excepted) have been to the contrary? Remember: if you hate "niggas", you sure as hell don't go and marry 'em! That's what U.S. history is all about, not the color-blind Brazilian history.

(Edited by Brazzuca at 1:18 am on Feb. 20, 2003)


(Edited by Brazzuca at 1:27 am on Feb. 20, 2003)

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 1:13 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Sick



Newbie
   
Hmm....El Hombre is that you?

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I have the best hair on this website.

Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 1:31 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Brazzuca


Newbie
   
Sick, is that last comment directed at me or to someone else altogether?

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 1:37 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
 

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