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        How hard is to be Black in Brazil
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MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
WELL THE WHITE SLAVEOWNERS HATED BLACK FOLKS TOO BUT THAT DIDNT STOP THEM FROM HAVING SEX WITH THE SLAVE WOMEN WHETHER IT WAS BY FORCE OR VOLUNTARY.MALCOM X HATED WHITE FOLKS BUT HE HAD AN AFFAIR WITH A WHITE WOMAN BUT OFCOURSE AFTER MALCOM WENT TO THE MECCA HE CHANGED HIS EXTREMIST VIEWS ABOUT WHITE FOLKS BUT ANYWAY THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE IS JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE SEX WITH SOMEBODY OF ANOTHER RACE IT DONT MEAN YOUR TOLERANT OF THAT RACE ESPECIALLY IF THAT SEXUAL ENCOUNTER WAS RAPE WHICH MOST OF THE TIME THESE BLACK WOMEN WERE FORCED INTO I BET VERY FEW OF THEM WERE VOLUNTARY AND I HOPE THEM REDNECKS BURN IN HELL FOR WHAT THEY DID

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:40 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Sick



Newbie
   
Sorry Brazzuca I thought you may have been someone else.

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I have the best hair on this website.

Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 2:13 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Brazzuca


Newbie
   
MARQUESEAZY, you talk about rape. So are all those mezclados in Brazil the result of rape? Cuz when I was there, there still seemed to be a whole lot of rapin' going on! And the women didn't seem to mind, neither -- they was happy bein' raped! And in many cases, from what I saw, it was the women who were doin' the rapin' -- and the guys didn't seem to mind neither, even when the negresses rapin' them were butt ugly. Besides, I'm talking about marriage and raising a family, not the rape-and-forget that went on in the United States. (though this, no doubt, took place in Brazil as well)

And Sick, who's this person you mistook me for? Was he relevant to what we're talking about? Cuz he must have been for you to bring him up. Does he have anything interesting to say on the issue?


(Edited by Brazzuca at 2:39 am on Feb. 20, 2003)

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 2:33 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Sick



Newbie
   
Brazzuca I thought you may have been El Hombre from a past discussion on this board about race.  And no, he would have nothing interesting to say on this issue.  

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I have the best hair on this website.

Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 2:50 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
WHAT THE HELL IS A MEZCLADO IS THAT WHAT THEY CALL BIRACIALS DOWN THERE NOW

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:51 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Brazzuca


Newbie
   
And no, he would have nothing interesting to say on this issue.

So by you assuming that I was this guy, does that mean I haven't anything interesting to say?  

WHAT THE HELL IS A MEZCLADO

A mezclado is simply someone who's mixed -- something that's very common in Brazil, unlike the United States, unless you insist on counting those rape-and-forgets from way back when.



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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 3:02 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Sick



Newbie
   
So Hombre, how have you been and where have you been? You've been missing out on your favorite topic.



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I have the best hair on this website.

Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:04 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
BRAZZUCA ARE YOU BRAZILIAN

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:15 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Brazzuca


Newbie
   
Where have I been?

Mate, where the heck's Nady-boy -- O-Homem, Mr Paul, et.al.?

Only you left, mate. Only you and that bastard Ze.

Man, I've occasionally checked -- by the way, in case you are wondering, I did have the last word -- the forum and done a search for my buddy Nadelstich, but he seems to have disappeared after my thread. Not another peep from him since. And the same with O-Homem. Mr Paul seems to have hung around for quite a bit, but he seems to have disappeared also, otherwise he'd be in the thick of things here.

I thought I'd have a peak here for old time's sakes -- and what do I find? A reincarnation of the old bugaboo topic, where everyone tries to deny the blindingly obvious through pernicious sophistry. I've been seeing plenty of that on this particular thread, plenty of it -- though that marksleazy guy (or whatever) has been mighty entertaining. So I've been spending much of last night and today reading this whole thread and catching up. Now we got a bunch of lefty academics, eh! Certainly high-brow now! So the crap we see produced now is of a more sophisticated nature! Oh, well, at least it makes the reading more interesting.

Good to be back. Good to see you again (thanks again for finding that article by Klor de Alva). And I guess it's also good to see you too, Ze. If you insist on lambasting me in Portuguese again, my mastery of the language has improved just that one bit. I'll be fluent by the end of this year -- promise!


(Edited by Brazzuca at 3:38 am on Feb. 20, 2003)

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 3:24 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Sick



Newbie
   
Haha you're funny. It is good to see you too. I hope you've been well. I look forward to see how your "paradigm shift" holds up here.

Tchau

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I have the best hair on this website.

Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:33 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
HEY SICK ARE YOU OBSESSED WITH APU

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:43 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Jeromy


Junior Member
   
I may be making a point that already has been made.
In my opinion there definitely is racism in Brazil. All one has to do is look at the percentage of blacks who live in poverty to prove that.
I in two different U.S. cities had Brazilian friends who were surprised to see so many Afro-Americans prospering, and commented that you rarely see this in Brazil.
The difference I have seen in Brazil. Is that there is not such a separation socially between the races as in U.S.. You have more mixing of races and colors in social circles. I mean is inter-racial couples even a concept in Brazil? It seems that this is such an accepted thing, much more than in the U.S..
For instance I had a girlfriend who was Afro-Brazilian. Not one time around Brazilians did someone look us strangely because we were an inter-racial couple. But many times, from both blacks and whites we would get those funny looks from Americans (though they didn't have the balls to say anything).    

Total Posts: 55 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 3:44 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Brazzuca


Newbie
   
BRAZZUCA ARE YOU BRAZILIAN

Yep. Fair dinkum, true-blue Brazilian, matey!

Sick, so what gave me away? I even tried employing American spelling (Aryanize instead of Aryanise) and felt illiterate doing it -- just so's I could get away from the Wrath. But no matter.

I like to think that I affected Nadelstich et.al. to such an extent that they quit the forum altogether, taking a sabbatical and going off to a cabin home in the hills of Montana to sit and reflect, rocking themselves backwards and forwards to sleep everyday in the foetal position. I obviously had no effect on you!

Tchau

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 3:50 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
MY MOM WHO IS MIXED RACE TOLD ME WHEN SHE WAS GROWING UP IN JACKSON,MISSISSIPPI THAT PEOPLE WOULD STARE AT HER AND HER MOTHER BECAUSE HER MOTHER IS WHITE AND PEOPLE WOULD COME UP TO HER BOTH BLACK AND WHITE AND ASK HER IF THAT COLORED GIRL WAS REALLY HER DAUGHTER AND SHE WOULD RESPOND WHAT DO YOU THINK.MY MOM IS MIXED RACE BUT SHE IDENTIFYS HERSELF AS BLACK HER DAD WHO IS BLACK TOLD HER THATS HOW THE WORLD WILL SEE YOU AS CAUSE SHE STILL HAD TO SIT IN THE BACK OF THE BUS THIS WAS THE 1950'S BY THE WAY

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:55 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Sick



Newbie
   
Brazzuca, only you would refer to Brasil as a "color-blind society". I just sat there shaking my head thinking "Damn, that's El Hombre!" . I remembered you using mezclado in the other thread and it stuck with me because I had never heard that term before. And finally, your signature "Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do. " ...this is what you often implored us to consider when thinking of Brasil.  Plus, I have a good memory in general.

Marqueseazy, I chose the Apu avatar becuase it was the only one that has hair that even approached the greatness of mine.

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I have the best hair on this website.

Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:03 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
dean


Newbie
   
<<And in many cases, from what I saw, it was the women who were doin' the rapin' -- and the guys didn't seem to mind neither, even when the negresses rapin' them were butt ugly.>>

Most men of any race wont turn done a piece if it's thrown at them . Still how many Blancas do you see raping "black" men not named "Pele"? How morenas many want  children who may be darker or   hair more nappy?  White men have historically had access over women of color, does that imply racial tolerance or domination? This question might be tough to answer from a a "white" Brasilian's perspective...

(Edited by dean at 5:04 am on Feb. 20, 2003)

Total Posts: 4 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 5:03 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Brazzuca


Newbie
   
All one has to do is look at the percentage of blacks who live in poverty to prove that.

Jerome, I actually confronted Mr John Fitzpatrick, who contributes to this magazine, by e-mail over what I believe is the fallacy that because the "blacks" are generally poorer in Brazil, then this must be because they're discriminated against. If you like, I can post my long e-mail to him here.

MY MOM IS MIXED RACE BUT SHE IDENTIFYS HERSELF AS BLACK HER DAD WHO IS BLACK TOLD HER THATS HOW THE WORLD WILL SEE...

WRONG, Marksleazy -- your maternal grandpa ought to have told your mother not that that's how the world is going to see her but that that's how American society is going to see her. Brazilian society definitely wouldn't have seen her like that or attached that social stigma to her or forced her to ride at the back of any bus. Quit shoving your American dysfunctions on Brazil. Not everywhere's like America (US). Not everyone thinks like an American (US).

Still how many Blancas do you see raping "black" men not named "Pele"?

Not everyone's an American (US). Not everyone thinks like an American (US). Why don't you come and visit Australia and New Zealand and see how your fellow Anglo-Saxon women act toward negritos? You know, I think it's this false but pervasive assumption that lies at the root of this whole thing -- the automatic assumption that because Americans (US) think in a particular manner, then everyone ipso facto must think likewise, regardless of all evidence to the contrary.

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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 5:24 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
RE: Black culture...

MULATINHO sez: "BLACK CULTURE CAN ANYBODY SAY HIP HOP AND R&B..."

Well, that might be black american culture, yes. But it's about as "African" or globally "black" as the Charleston.

There are as many European influences in "black" music as there are African, starting with the language the songs are sung in and many of the instruments that are used. The whole idea of "spectacle", a group of musicians playing on a stage, is a European thing. Though african-american musical forms tend to leave more room for audience feed back, they are still relatively passive spectacles.

And as for "stealing", culture simply doesn't work that way. There's no patent or origin to cultural forms, no beginning or end. They evolve from mixes of influences and spin off into new things. Elvis' music was just as heavily influenced by poor white rural culture as it was black. It went on to influence both black and white musicians. Who's steealing from whom?

MULATINHO seems to feel, like most people, that culture has an inherent "owner". It doesn't. Culture itself is neutral. It's a medium of exchange. It's no more "black" or "white" than, say, money is. But that doesn't mean that people don't fight over it. Culture is something we all create. where it goes after we create it, no one can predict.

Different from property or money, however, culture isn't finite or even fixed in place and time. That is to say, my learning how to use a certain cultural category of yours doesn't deprive you of that same cultural category. Thus MULATINHO'S "robbery" metaphor is stupid twice over. Saying jazz "belongs" to blacks is like saying English "belongs" to the English. It's a form of communication that one can learn or not.

Boricua, these same comments can be applied to Brazil and the U.S. there's nothing inherently "Brazilian" or "American" about the cultures that are created within those two nations. They are simply mediums of exchange, which anyone can learn to use.

MOOSEBOY sez:

"christmas was never, "based on prior pagan rituals that celebrates the birth of a Jewish messiah."
it was turned into a holiday by pope pius I.  he made it dec 25, which was a day that romans celebrated saturnailia. in other parts of europe they celebrated the winter solstice and other gods."

Er, Moosie, don't get me wrong here, but I think you're having trouble with the word "Pagan". You think the saturnalia and these "other gods" you talk about were what, exactly, Islamic?

Your comment proves precisely what I said. X-mas is a European ritual (I assume we agree that Pope Pius I wasn't African or Asian) based on prior pagan rituals (the saturnalia and celtic solsitice rituals, frex) which celebrated the birth of a Jewish messiah (Jesus had a trimmed weenie and celebrated his bar mitzvah with the finest New York kosher caterers). So what, exactly, are you objecting to in my description of x-mas?

Re: your description of culture, beliefs are not primordial. They are transmitted and change in the transmission. The "traditional beliefs of any social group" are culture, yes, but they are not rigidly in place and do not transmit in a 'pure" fashion. To say that a certain belief "belongs" to a given social group simply because they celebrate it is stupid and goes against the first part of the definition you quoted to us.

MULATINHO sez jazz in "black" culture. But jazz could never have existed without cultural influences from all over the world. Why is it "black", then? Because people say it is, nothing more or less. That's POLITICS at work, friend, not nature.

Boricua, hate to take MUILATINO'S side on this, but just because you're willing to fuck someone doesn't mean you see them as an equal. Women were for centuries seen as being inferior to men but that didn't stop men from marrying them.

That said, I find it interesting, again, the dichotomy demonstrated by American and Brazilian reactions to miscegenation. Americans always seem to feel that mestiços are the fruit of rape, carried out under slavery. Brazilians see mestiços as living proof that the human heart and desires cannot be bound by racist dogmas. Both ideas are full of crap. There was plenty of rape under slavery and since then. There was also plenty of consensual sex. There's no proof, one way or the other, that one form of sexual mixture weighed out over the other.

The major problem with this whole debate, people, is that you're taking politically defined human differences and trying to turn them into "natural" divisions. "Blacks", "latinos" and "whites" are artifical divisons created by history and politics. There's no essential "there", there folks. you guys are like the 19th century Germans and the French arguing over whether alsace-lorraine was "naturally" French or German. It was a piece of land that wasn't "naturally" anything. That didn't mean that two peoples couldn't fight over it, however.


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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:28 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Jeromy


Junior Member
   
Macunaima said "Culture itself is neutral. It's a medium of exchange. It's no more "black" or "white" than, say, money is. But that doesn't mean that people don't fight over it. Culture is something we all create. where it goes after we create it, no one can predict."
I think this is an excellent point. I second it.

Total Posts: 55 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 5:54 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Brazzuca


Newbie
   
There's no proof, one way or the other, that one form of sexual mixture weighed out over the other.

Yeah? Look, there's obviously a difference between rape-and-forget and marrying someone in order to sire kids and raise a family and so on. If I was a "white" racist who felt "blacks" were biologically inferior, then why would I choose to marry a "black" woman over a "white" woman and sire kids with her? Would not the superiority of my kids be compromised by the miscegenation? Are you suggesting that Brazilians are mightily confused people -- that they mean one thing yet to the complete opposite? There's a big difference between raping someone and not caring the slightest about any offspring produced and marrying someone you love and raising a family you also love with her.

Come on, mate, how's about making a little sense? I know you're an academic, but please try.


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Always watch what people do, not what they (or anybody else) say they do.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 6:01 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Brazuca, I say that there's no proof that one of these forms was more prevelant than the other and you think I'm saying there's no DIFFERENCE. Reboot, read what I said again, and see if you understand it this time. I'm not saying there's no difference between rape and consensual sex. I am saying that we have no solid proof that one is more prevalent than the other in miscegenation, even during slavery.

Re: your other points, look, plenty of slave owners in Brazil had kids with slaves and NEVER assumed that those kids were theirs. Sex doesn't mean "settle down and raise kids" necessarily. Plenty of men today - regardless of nationality or skin color - generate kids through consensual sex whom they then cheerfully abandon.

What I'm reacting to here is the Brazilian feeling that all interacial mixture is the result of love and the American feeling that it is the result of rape.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:07 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Oddly enough, Brazuca's opinion is similar to the one I gave above. The differences apparent in Brazilian and American racism are mostly on the ideological level. When one looks at what people actually DO, one sees that things are pretty similar.

"If you're white, you´re alright. If you're brown, stick around. If you're black, get back." That's a U.S. American racist saying that maps over perfectly onto Brazilian racist practice. Apparently, despite the preachings of guys like MARQUES MULATINHO, Americans are a hell of a lot more color conscious in practice than they'd like to admit. "Everyone's black or white in the U.S." my ass. If that's true, why are American black celebrities almost always lighter-skinned mulatos?

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:27 am on Feb. 20, 2003 | IP
 

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