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Anonymous
   
I have heard more than once that there is no racism in brazil. Hardly to believe when you know that at least half of the Brazilian population is black and there are very few black people that we see in the news: Pele, Xica, Benedita da Silva, Marina Silva, Gilberto Gil and a few more soccer players and musicians.

What's going on? Don't blacks have the same opportunities as white people? Does it make sense to call these disparities economic prejudice instead of racism?

What's your take?

Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 4:44 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
Yes, there is racism in Brazil.  It happens  in a diferent way than in US, but it exists. There are some discussions on the old forum on this matter if it interests you.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:28 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP
Lucas


Newbie
   
Yes, there is racism, but it's nothing compared to racism that occurs on USA.

If you are a good professional and owns a good mind you'll have the same opportunities. The problem is the majority of black people in Brasil does not have enough money to pay a good education.

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Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh

Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:14 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP
Joe Gahona


Newbie
   

Quote: from Lucas on 12:14 am on Jan. 8, 2003
Yes, there is racism, but it's nothing compared to racism that occurs on USA.


I'd love to hear how the racism in Brazil is different from the racism in the U.S. Can you think of any examples?

Total Posts: 13 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:32 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP
Lucas


Newbie
   
I've never heard about a brazilian Klu Klux Klan, did you?


-----
Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh

Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:46 pm on Jan. 7, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
There are no guetos.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:26 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP
USCIT


Newbie
   
Hmmm. Not trying to be argumentive here, but Lucas; you have the land owner and industrialist shooting the landless. Not the same as the Klu Klux Clan, but a similar mentality is depicted. Somewhat more tragic in my opinion as it isn't the landowner or industrialist who goes out and personally does the shooting, just minions they hire who are actually no better off than those they are killing.

And Zé, if a favela isn't a ghetto, what is it?

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USCIT

Total Posts: 21 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:24 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP
Lucas


Newbie
   
We aren't talking about ilegal land invasions, it's a completely different matter.



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Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh

Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:08 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP
Joe Gahona


Newbie
   
Lucas,

I wasn't being sarcastic; I really want to know. I've read on this and the old forum things like "Brazil has racism, but it is different from the racism in the USA." Well, how is it different? Is racism not as much of a problem in Brazil? Are there programs like affirmative action? What is the percentage of blacks in brazil? People of European decent? Does this have an obvious bearing on who is a hard-core racist. (I don't know many latinos who are members of the Klan.)

Not asking for a book report, just curious what you mean by "different." Is racism projected in different ways, or by "different" do you (general "you" ) mean that it's not as much of a problem as it is in the USA? If a Brazilian asked me if Ireland had folk music, and if I said, "yes, there is folk music in Ireland, but it is different from the folk music of Brazil," that wouldn't explain a whole lot.

Thanks.

Total Posts: 13 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:32 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP
Lucas


Newbie
   
hum... I tried to write in english, but I couldn't, sorry.

O racismo aqui é muito mais leve, com certeza. Nunca houve nenhum grupo radical racista significante, eles nunca foram proíbidos de freqüentar universidades, o exército nunca impôs restrições pra postos mais elevados, etc.

Racismo é crime aqui já há algum tempo, pode dar até cadeia...

A porcetagem da população que é negra deve estar beirando os 30%, 40%, mas não há tantos aqui no sudeste como nos estados lá pra cima.

No entanto os negros geralmente ganham menos e não existem muitos em cargos de chefia, eles têm menos oportunidades do que a parcela restante de população justamente por serem mais pobres e não poderem pagar por uma universidade. As faculdades públicas são as melhores, só que muito concorridas. Os que estudaram em uma escola privada e fizeram cursinho levam vantagem, infelizmente. Eles até estão cogitando criar uma cota nas universidades para estudantes de escolas públicas, mas não sei como esse projeto anda.

O fato dos negros serem mais pobres é um problema que vem se arrastando desde o fim da escravidão, eles acabaram ficando sem onde ir e tiveram que morar em qualquer lugar. Junta-se isso com a falta de assistência do governo e pronto.

O racismo não é um problema aqui, mas sim a falta de oportunidade para os menos afortunados...

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Lucas, um usuário convicto (mas não fanático) de Macintosh

Total Posts: 39 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 11:15 am on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP
fernandobn


Junior Member
   
I think that racism exists because of the human nature, and yes I think that is more an economic prejudice issue, less racism as the races get melted.  In Brazil even in favelas you see more mixed races than before.  I cannot think a place in Brasil that one could say there lives only blacks or is a Black gheto, but you can tell which bairro lives only wealthy people.

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Fernando B.

Total Posts: 55 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:24 pm on Jan. 8, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
I beg to differ with you Lucas on the degree to which racism is a problem in Brazil.

There were just two articles in O Globo stating that  Afro-Brazilians and so-called 'mulattos' with the SAME education as so-called 'white' Brazilians earn less than them and are rarely promoted to higher positions even when their credentials are equal or even superior to 'white' Brazilians.

There was another article in A Tarde about 1 week ago about the discrimination in hiring at the malls and other shopping areas in Salvador.  

Rascism is racism.  It is not just individual discrimnation.  It is a systematic denial and repression of the humanity of a group of people.

As an African-American who volunteers in Liberdade (Bahia) and Bangu (Rio) the self-esteem of Afro-Brazilians are worse than what African-Americans had in the early part of this century.  I have a friend in Rio who is insulted much by members of her own family because she is the darkest of the family despite the fact that, by American standards, she is infinitely the most beautiful.  And even she acknowledges that darker Brazilian women are easy prey for lighter men and mediocre white tourists because they want 'light babies'.  Those are her words....not mine.

The racism of the Brazilian media (newspaper and television) is similar to that of the early white media in the United States in the 40s and 50s that only portrayed the pathologies of a people and not the human efforts and achievements.

Similar to these early white racist papers black coverage is only given to entertainment, sports and sensual women.

The images presented of a people determine, for many of them, their expectations in life.  RACA (the Afro-Brazilian magazine) is trying to change this but it is a very small effort.  

Brazilian racism is different than U.S. racism but as we say in the American South..."the lesser of two evils is still....EVIL!"

And unlike the United States...racism is not the only evil that affects the misery in Brazilian society.  There is a classism that affects Brazilians of all colors and ethnicities.  But the evil of one does not deny the evil of the other.

Peace

Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:58 pm on Jan. 12, 2003 | IP
Guest



Anonymous
   
>>>And unlike the United States...racism is not the only evil that affects the misery in Brazilian society.  There is a classism that affects Brazilians of all colors and ethnicities.<<<

EXACTLY. And the concept of classism is one that most Americans have no idea about. As an American, I had no idea what classism even was. It wasn't until my third trip to Brasil, in São Paulo, that I saw it happening firsthand to people before my eyes. It's a very cruel system, and for that reason alone, I am glad that I don't live in Brazil.  

Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 10:51 pm on Jan. 12, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
Perhaps I'll clarify my view on that.  Classism is very much a part of the American society.  But the United States is a mega-producing country and the abundance of material things makes the separation between our classes not a separation between the 'haves' and 'misery' but between those who have very much, those who have something, those who are kinda comfortable, and those who survive.

But the labor class in America has to uproot their lives to survive just as those in the Sertão and other Brazilians Northeasterners flood Rio and São Paulo searching for a better life.

The greatest population growth in America has been the South and Southwest as poor Americans, made jobless by the shutdown of the coal mines and the loss of manufacturing jobs in the old Northeastern (American) cities have uprooted their families and fled to these areas in search of jobs.

American racism has so blinded whites in America that these whites who share the same problems as African-Americans refuse to unite in common cause (except in some instances) despite the fact that the rural whites, the rust belt whites, the suburban poor are victims of the same greedy, profit driven downsizing as the urban and Southern African-Americans.

I think by ''classism" you mean the term "elitism" (forgive me for interpreting your meaning).  And yes...I personally feel (with my limited knowledge)  that that is a major issue in Brazilian society.

At least from what I have experienced and the attitudes I have received here in Brazil because many 'white' Brazilians do not know that I am not Brazilian and as an African-American...we just ain't in the mood for taking that kind of sh-t from anyone.

I do believe that the multi-racial, multi-ethnic coalition that elected Lula shows the ability of Brazilians to unite across color and ethnic lines that we Americans have yet to match.

Racism in Brazil does not seem to be cultural as it is here in the States.  "White" culture versus "Black" culture.  My 'white' friends in Rio would be considered culturally African-Americans (and only 1 would be considered white)  whereas when Elvis Presley started singing he was considered a sellout to 'white culture' by singing in a Black style.

I have an older lawyer friend in Rio who is purely of english ancestry but the only music that brings tears to his eyes is that of Jorge Aragão and others who play the 'roots of Samba'.

Peace

Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:09 am on Jan. 13, 2003 | IP
stark114


Newbie
   
<<At least from what I have experienced and the attitudes I have received here in Brazil because many 'white' Brazilians do not know that I am not Brazilian and as an African-American...we just ain't in the mood for taking that kind of sh-t from anyone.>>

Exactly what kind of crap did you go through? Do Black Brazilians just accept this type of treatment do to their alledged lack of self esteem?

Also, I've heard that interracial marraiges are not uncommon in Brazil. Is this not contradictory in some sense? Perhaps it is a case of "marrying up"? If a white or lighter skill Brazilian women marries a Black Brazilian man, is he usually  better off financially?

Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:01 am on Jan. 13, 2003 | IP
Sick



Newbie
   
In Latin America, race and class are inextricably linked, whereas in the US it is not. This link of class and race is sometimes given the name "polite racism". An oxymoron if there ever was one. In other words, the racism is not overt, as it is and has historically been in the US.

The class and race link has ramifications in regards to globalisation because in general Latin American nations are dominated by an ethnic minority (people who tend to be whiter than the average population and tend to be of mostly of European descent). Five hundred years of political and economic domination by this ethnic minority is coming to a head with globalisations free markets and democracy. A good example of the potential risks in all this is Venezuela where Hugo Chavez, who was legitimately elected, ran a campaign of demagoguery proclaiming Venezuela for the Pardos! and playing on class/ethnic tensions. It is easy to applaud the democracy but when a demagogue, playing on ethnic tensions, is elected and begins to implement plans to return the nation to it's "rightful owners" this can result in a backlash by the group generally targeted, thus the coup attempt. The US, leader of the globalizing forces, seems to have not taken this ethnic dynamic of some developing nations into account. Essentially, sudden democratization coupled with laisez-faire economics (economics even the first world nations reject) could actually be a recipe for disaster. I just hope Venezuela is the exception and not the rule.

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I have the best hair on this website.

Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 5:50 am on Jan. 13, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
ALL BLACK BRAZILIANS ARE ASHAMED OF THEIR SKIN COLOR CAUSE ALL OF THEM WISH THEY WERE WHITE

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:03 pm on Jan. 15, 2003 | IP
stark114


Newbie
   

Comments?

<<During the elections of 1997, Margarida Pereira da Silva was the leading candidate for mayor in Pombal in the interior of the state of Paraiba, Northeastern Brazil. Margarida, beloved for her community work with youth, decided to run for office to offer an alternative to the corrupt, special interest politics that dominate the Northeastern region. With little money, she ran the campaign from her home. One week before Election Day, two strangers offered her a R$100,000 (US$60,000) donation for her youth program. There was just one condition -- Margarida had to drop out of the race. She politely but firmly refused, I'm running for my people not for money.

Within days of the refused bribe, all of her posters were painted over with the words Negra Feia, Ugly Black Woman. Unable to discredit her honesty or merits, her opponents orchestrated a smear that focused solely on race. Long-time friends and even some relatives, most likely paid off, suddenly were working against her. Margarida lost by a landslide. When Margarida's nephew caught his girlfriend tearing down Margarida's posters, she responded, I'm not going to waste my vote on that ugly, black thing.

Margarida's story of racial discrimination is not isolated to the rural areas of the Northeast. Every day millions of Afro-Brazilians experience racism. From the family living room, where darker skinned children are often discriminated against, to Church pews, barbershops, classrooms, and the Halls of Congress, racism gnaws at the fabric of Brazilian society. The South American giant is often considered by foreigners and Brazilians as a racial democracy because of the high number of interracial marriages and seemingly easy banter between the races in every day life. Racial Democracy, coined by the Brazilian Sociologist Gilberto Freyre in early 20th century, is the theory that a history of extended miscegenation has created a cultural melange in which all races are equally valued. Nothing is farther from the truth in contemporary Brazil.

Race in Brazil is complex and distinct. Most Brazilians claim a mixed African, European, and indigenous ancestry. In practice, however, the weight of racism causes people to continually whiten themselves. For example, many morenos straighen their hair, people search for lighter-skinned marriage partners, and people identify themselves and each other with nicknames indicating a lighter skin tone, such as moreninho (browny), cafe (coffee), mulato, bronzeado (tanned), and escurinho (darky) to name a few. Rarely will someone assume an identity as Negro (black). Even those who call themselves black often have a hard time convincing other Brazilians not to identify them as moreno or mulatto. Calling someone black, for many, is still an insult.

Skin color profoundly influences life chances. According to a 1992 study by Carlos Hasenbalg and Nelson do Valle Silva, Brazilian nonwhites are three times more likely than whites to be illiterate. The numbers deteriorate in the high echelons of academic study. Whites are FIVE times more likely than people of mixed ancestry and NINE times more likely than Blacks to obtain university degrees. This pattern repeats itself in the work force where according to government statistics whites have access to the highest-paying jobs, earning up to 75% more than blacks and 50% more than people of mixed ancestry.(1) Brazil's prisons and youth detention centers are bursting at the seams. The vast majority of detainees and victims of police brutality are non-white Brazilians. Not surprisingly, health statistics paint a similar picture. For example, non-white Brazilian infants are almost twice as likely to die as their white counterparts.

Not all of the consequences of racism can be neatly packaged into statistics and charts. Effects on self-esteem are not easily measured. At a recent reflection group of Afro-Brazilian Women in Joao Pessoa, Paraiba, Cida painfully recounted the termination of her relationship. For several years, she dated Chico, a lighter-skinned black, and their color difference never created difficulties. When they got engaged, Chico's family exploded with his mother leading the attack, This little blackie is going to pollute our blood. Go and find someone who will purify our blood. Chico caved in and broke the engagement within days. Two years later Cida painfully asked in the group, How can you tell me not to feel inferior because of my color? Brazil's black movement struggles to address this question by introducing a positive black identity and fighting racism at all levels of society.>>

Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:54 am on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Guest



Anonymous
   
The above was excerpted from a Brazzil magazine story that ran in November 1999.

The author is Kathleen Bond who works with the Maryknoll Mission Association of the Faithful in Brazil.

Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 7:11 am on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
No offense, but I find the first story highly suspicious, since politics aren't exactly that easy. You don't demoralize your opponent simply saying that he is black, there is quite a context missing here.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:40 am on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
fernandobn


Junior Member
   
Ah! Complex Human Nature! I think that racism is a particular Case of Discrimination. Even having Portuguese, Italian heritage My Family and I suffered Discrimination in US. At work, I was treated as a 3rd Class professional...not being invited to meetings where all my team was, and other small things (this is not because of the language). At School my kids geting the thoughest reprimand than the american kids for similar childish things. I wrote a letter to the principal talking about the problem and I was called for a meeting with all staff because they were afraid that the letter could reach the School district. So, things like... You are prepy... you are popular and I am not!, you are a Loser! and so on. Human beings, start early tagging themselves as Losers, winners and etc. This, in my point of view, is wrong.  We should strive to accept differences better! Because we never know the next day or next life!

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Fernando B.

Total Posts: 55 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 11:22 am on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
Racism and Discrimination are like the Dragon and the Lizard.  An 'ism' is institutionally supported by society in the culture, laws, and accepted behaviour of its people.

Most American immigrants intially suffered 'racism', the Irish, the Poles, the Italians, etc.  Because initially  the false concept of a 'white' race only applied to WASPs. (white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant).  Early Italians would refer to those of English ancestry as 'white people'.  

(ref the book: HOW THE IRISH BECAME WHITE)

But as the social and political benefits of being 'white' became obvious subsequent generations of immigrant Americans accepted the WASPS ideals as the model, many changed their names, downplayed their ethnicness, and assimilated into 'whiteness'.  In effect, these immigrants eliminated racism by simply joining the 'enemy'.  

A tragedy.  Outside of America the biggest supporters of the Irish were African-American leaders.  The rally cry for the black nationalist Marcus Garvey "AFRICA FOR THE AFRICANS" was taken directly from the rally cry of the Irish "IRELAND FOR THE IRISH".  No greater respect was given to an American than to Paul Robeson (African-American singer, activist, Rhodes Scholar) who visited Ireland often and with his baritone voice brought tears to the eyes of the Irish as he sang of their struggles against the 'whites'....the English.

Yet, the Irish in the United States were the main antagonists against African-Americans.  The Irish Riots in my city, Philadelphia, killed hundreds of African-Americans and destroyed one of the largest black middle-class on the East Coast.  Generally because the poor and uneducated Irish competed for the same low wage jobs as the African-Americans.  But the 'whites' still had such low contempt for the Irish that, even today, the police vans are called PADDY WAGONS, 'paddy' being  a derogative applied to the Irish.

The corruption of many Protestant religions to justify this racism, including Mormonism ("blacks are the children of Cain and the mark God gave on Cain was to make him black...according to the Mormons) was used to institutionalize the idea that not just England, but Europe, was the home of 'whites'.  For many decades the Italians were still not considered to be white and faced a particular 'racism' well into the late sixties.

In my opinion, the greatest 'sin' of the Brazilians was to accept and perpetuate this false idea of race and accept not just the 'term' white but the social and political caste structure inherent in the American definition.  

Without the caste structure the various names are meaningless.  Even we African-Americans call ourselves light-skinned, dark-skinned, redbone, high yellow, etc.  But, except in small instances, we ascribe no human potential to these titles.  The achievements of 'light-skinned' Colin Powell (Secretary of State) or the 'dark-skinned Condoleeza Rice (head of the National Security Agency) are expected by us.  I am a member of the National Black MBA Association.  We would never choose a light-skinned person over a dark-skinnned person for president because of their color.

But when I talk to many, not all, but many of my friends here (Brazil) I can hear the judgement being made when a racial term is applied to other Brazilians.  It is not just a harmless term to describe ancestry but a judgement of that ancestry and limitations put on the expectations of a particular individual.

I'll correct myself to say, maybe not all Brazil, but in my experiences.  And I don't spend times at clubs and bars.  I am in the houses talking to mothers and fathers and grandmothers and grandfathers.

Many of whom are praying for and distressed over their child selling themselves to depraved tourists on the streets of Pelourinho, Copacabana, etc.

Peace

Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:48 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
IF YOU TAKE AWAY RIO AND SALVADOR BRAZIL BARELY HAS ANY BLACK PEOPLE AT ALL.THIS WHOLE THANG ABOUT BRAZIL HAVING THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION AFTER NIGERIA IS B.S.MOST OF BRAZIL IS EITHER WHITE OR MESTIZO.IF YOU GO TO THE SOUTH,THE CENTRAL WEST,OR THE AMAZON BLACKS ARE AN ENDANGERED SPECIES THERE ALMOST INVISIBLE.THE U.S HAS A WAY LARGER BLACK POPULATION THEN BRAZIL SO WHY ISNT THE U.S CONSIDERED THE THE NATION WITH THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION AFTER NIGERIA CAUSE IT MAKES MORE SENSE DONT YALL THINK.IN THE U.S THERE ARE CITIES THAT BLACKS MAKE THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION LIKE EAST L.A,ATLANTA,WASHINGTON DC,AND NEW ORLEANS JUST TO NAME A FEW BRAZIL DOSENT HAVE PREDOMINANTLY BLACK CITIES, TO ME BRAZIL IS LIKE THE SOUTH AMERICAN VERSION OF MONTANA MEANING WHITES ARE OVER 90 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION.I LIVE IN NEW YORK AND I HAVE NEVER EVEN SEEN A AFRO BRAZILIAN ALL THE BRAZILIANS THAT I HAVE EVER MET ARE WHITE IAND I HAVE PASSED BY LITTLE BRAZIL A COUPLE OF TIMES AND THATS SAYING SOMETHING.

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:26 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
To Adrianerik:
Maybe it is because you spend your time in such specific enviroment, you lack something of the whole.

To MARQUESEAZY:
Actually those of pure african ancestry are more rare than those of pure european ancestry, but if you consider the mestizos black as in the US, Brazil does have a marjority of black.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:34 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
@Ze - Perhaps.  

I don't know what you mean by 'specific environment'.  

Nevertheless I'm not one to generalize (okay...maybe a little).  I'm mostly in Bahia, Rio, Sao Paulo and Rondonia.  My friends there span the range from poor young black kids to upper middle class white lawyers and engineers.  My experiences are the same in all of those places.  Actually in Rondonia the blacks are catching a bit more hell.

I can't speak for the other 22 states.  

Would I find them to be different?  Are the education rates, the upper level employment rates, the self-esteem among blacks, indians and mulattos higher in these other states?

I don't know and would expect that Brazil, like the United States, also has the same social complexities, and for every social hell have areas of social harmony.

Perhaps in April, when I have some time, I'll take some time to visit some others.  I'm finishing a book THE DOGS OF BAHIA which is fiction but is influenced by some of my experiences.

Peace

Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:41 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
Is your experience in these four states really similar?

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:15 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Loco


Newbie
   

  In my opinion the black people from Brazil have some fault too about all this problem.

  I can give you an example.

  Most of the population of Rio Grande do Sul is white, almost 86%.

 In Bahia almost 90% is black.

 Rio Grande do Sul had the first black governator of Brazil and was the first state to gave freedom for the slaves. There is a black senator for this state too nowdays.

 Bahia population only vote for white politians, blacks dont have power there.

 The black people from Brazil dont complain, they are too passive.

 But I dont think that Brazil is racist like US, here most of the problems is because of the money.

 You dont see racism against japanese, jews, arabs....because most of they r not poor here.

 And there is another thing, the black culture of Brazil is really strong, the white population of Brazil is almost invisible to the rest of the world.

 Its really normal for a white brazilian go to other country and heard "how can you be brazilian? You are white" or "you have blond hair, you cant be from Brazil"

 The white population of Brazil iss to big to be compared with the white minorities from other latin countries.

 Some1 here wrote that the brazilian black population is small outside Rio and Salvador, this is not true, go to São Paulo, Minas or any Northeast state. Brazil have the second largest black population of the world.

 Sorry for my bad english

Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:22 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
HOW DOES BRAZIL HAVE THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION IN THE WORLD WHEN BLACKS ONLY MAKE UP 6% OF THE POPULATION IN BRAZIL THATS A VERY SMALL MINORITY AND THATS FAR FROM THE MAJORITY.WHITES  WAY OUTNUMBER BLACKS CAUSE WHITES IN BRAZIL MAKE UP 55% OF THE POPULATION.SO BRAZIL IS FAR FROM PREDOMINANTLY  BLACK AND IT NEVER WILL BE EITHER.NOW OTHER LATIN COUNTRIES LIKE THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC,CUBA,AND PANAMA IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY CAUSE IN THOSE COUNTRIES BLACKS AND MULATTOES ARE THE MAJORITY CAUSE THEY MAKE UP OVER 70% OF THE POPULATION.SO THIS WHOLE THANG ABOUT BRAZIL HAVING THE SECOND LARGEST BLACK POPULATION IN THE WORLD IS JUST A MYTH AND STATISTICS PROVE IT NOW HOW DID IT GET THIS MYTH BEATS ME.BUT PEOPLE DO OVER EXAGERATE THE POPULATION OF BLACKS IN BRAZIL AND I AM WILLINGLY TO BET THAT EVEN EUROPE HAS A LARGER BLACK POPULATION THEN BRAZIL.

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:47 pm on Jan. 16, 2003 | IP
Sick



Newbie
   
Ha. This thread is proving why racial classifications are so pointless.

First, Ze, not being picky here just a clarification. I think you meant "mulatto", not "mestizo". Mestizos are considered "hispanic" in the US (assuming you define mestizo as a european and indian mix).

Second, Marqueseazy, if you are using the Brasilian definitions of race, then what you say is technically correct and valid in that regard. However, North American definitions differ. The US uses the "one drop rule", meaning if someone is of so-called mix race, and displays about any stereotypical feature of the non-white mix, that person is considered non-white and labeled whatever the non-white mix is. Therefore, mulattos are generally considered black. So comparing statistics between the two countries is pointless, the definitions are different.

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I have the best hair on this website.

Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:53 am on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
@Ze - Specifically in regards to the condition of black people the experiences are the same...or perhaps similar is a better word.  The situation in Rio and Sao Paulo is similar to our major cities....not only is there the poverty and lack of higher education there is also the same anger (zangrado) typically found in urban settings where the disparity between the haves and have-nots is in your face every day and the need to control the anger of the have-nots can be manifested quite brutally.  My work in Bangu with Jovems Pra Jovems and Caixa Da Supressa (two initiatives to help the youths there (mostly black but not all black) gives evidence of this.

Bahia and Rondonia are similar to our American South where we have many towns that are majority Black and the biting anger is not there but the same degree of exclusion as in Rondonia where I work with the GRUPO DE MULHERES NEGRAS DE RONDONIA.

But those are just my experiences.  I am not qualified to write a book on racism in Brazil.  I will make a hypothesis on what I expect to find based upon on how racism has manifested itself in various forms around this world.  

But I am quite teachable.  No pet agendas.

I would wish that I found none at all in Brazil.  I like the people there of all ethnicities.

Feel free to offer other visions to me.

There always are several structural differences to  the way racism manifests itself , rural versus urban, minority population versus majority population but when you get to the roots of the negative images that people are being fed and the allocation of resources, whether much resources or few resources their issues are the same.

@loco - You are addressing the symptoms and not the cause.  Read WRETCHED OF THE EARTH by Frantz Fanon (and though it is a flawed work) it gives insight on how a pathology imposed upon a people is perpetuated by that people.  

I have heard rumors of Rio De Sul excluding other Brazilians from migrating there.  I don't state that as a fact but I've been told by friends in Rio.  If that is not the case or only happened in small instances then my apologies.

In California they elected the first African-American mayor though African-Americans are only about 15% of Los Angeles.  We African-Americans are far beyond this idea of 'firsts'.  The question is whose interests an individual represents.  Black skin does not make a person godly.  When the Nazis initially rounded up the Jews, in some cases, they were aided by other Jew.

Finally this is just a reply to this thread.  Racism is not the sole issue in Brazil.  And blacks and mulattoes are not the only victims.  That is a fact.  My friends in a favela in Ilha called Cocota are struggling to survive...they are the loveliest people in the world and they are brancos.

Peace


Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:09 am on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
To Sick: Thanks, we use the word "Mestiço" as mixed race, including mulato, and others, and so I thought that it was a cognate.

To Marqueseazy: There is no myth, this data was aquired in the last census, 6% think themselves as black, and I-don't-remember-the-number-but-know-it-is-big are "mestiços" which we use as a politicaly correct word for mulato on statistics.

To Adrianerik: There is one type of racism that I think that you will find stronger in Rio and São Paulo where you work, it is against "Nordestinos". Have a good look on it, and see if it isn't true.

(Edited by Ze at 9:26 am on Jan. 17, 2003)

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:23 am on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP
ELEGANTGENT



Junior Member
   
ADRIANERIK, WHAT TYPE OF WORK DO YOU DO?

Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:39 pm on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP
Patinho



Junior Member
   
Adrianerik-

I can kind of verify Ze's last statement about "Nordestinos". I thought that the States were divided because of the whole civil war thing, but Brazil is even worse.

For Example: I bought some portuguese lesson cassettes a few years ago. My Carioca freind found this interesting and wanted to listen while we were in the car. Upon hearing that the teacher on the tape had a Northern accent... she ejected the tape and threw it out the window. I could not beleive she did that. She said "That's not portuguese.... I'll teach you portuguese."
Since all of the portuguese influence I had so far was form the Nordeste, she made it her mission to rid me of that accent and replace it with a Carioca one. Now I tend to speak a mixture of both places along with my horrible, but getting better American accent.

-----
"Quem quer viver faz magica"
--Guimaraes Rosa

Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:33 pm on Jan. 17, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
I have no doubt of the bias against Nordestinos but elitist bigotry should not be confused with racism which infects the educational material, religion, the judiciary laws, etc while elitist bigotry can be a regional bias, similar to the past disdain of Northern 'yankees' against the American South...something that has only begun to change in recent years.

It's also interesting that the heart of Carioca culture is not native Carioca but imported from the Nordeste...from the white clothing at Revellion, to Carnaval (initiated by Nordestinos or the children of Nordestinos at Manguiero), to the celebrations to Iemanja on Copacabana on New Year's Eve.

Three of my closest friends are of European ancestry from Rio De Sul and they all came to Rio De Janeiro and married the daughters of Nordestinos.

Viva Brazil! but God Bless the Nordestinos.  My family is from South Carolina (southern state in the United States) and we were dirt poor and called 'country' by the Northerners (the equivalent of the Cariocas and the Paulistas).  I know of the struggles of the Nordestinos and relate to them.

@elegantgent - You can go to my web site at "http://members.aol.com/adrianerik for information on what I am doing.  I don't believe in being anonymous on web sites.  Love me or hate me I don't hide 'cause I can handle myself.

We (myself and friends) have free english classes, teach web site development, are beginning to assist groups that are trying to help the disadvantaged score higher on the vestibular and recently are beginning to sponsor the tuition to the Faculdade for women in Rondonia.  (this is a new effort that is not fully developed).  

There are some initiatives in the sciences, mathematics and business development that are possibilities.  There are many African-Americans who initially come to Brazil as tourists but find similarities to our former oppression in the United States and what is happening in Brazil and wish to do more than take advantage of the disadvantaged.  So we attempt to channel African-American resources to viable areas in Brazil that are serious.  We've submitted proposals to Escola Criativa Do Olodum to work with their kids and that is being considered also.

We are focused on Afro-Brazilians but not exclusively.  You cannot ignore misery because of someone's color or ethnicity.

Peace  

Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:02 pm on Jan. 18, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
Adrianerik, those are not the heart of carioca culture, they are an integral part of brazilian culture, altough their origin is in nordeste.

Don't close your eyes, the prejudice against "Nordestinos" is racism.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:42 pm on Jan. 18, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
Okay....I won't argue the point.  It really doesn't matter what is the exact motive when a person is firing a gun at another person.  Only that, regardless, the other person has to protect himself/herself.

If you slap a man because he is black or slap a man because he is a Nordestino we still have to teach that same man not to worry about WHY he is being slapped but how to resist...how to protect...how to defend...

It is such an ironic situation in Brazil because so-called 'brancos' have not created such an awesome civilization that they should be thumbing their noses at anyone.

But then that is the other complication of Brazilian society.  With the Brazilian definitions of 'brancos' 'pardos' 'pretos' 'caboclo' 'mestizo', etc the sin of racism is able to be manifested in various layers in Brazil.   My 'bronzada' friend in Ilha (in Rio) is insulted by her 'cinnamon' Tia (aunt) because she is the darkest in the family.  I had no idea what she said until I saw the tears in her eyes and she explained the insult.  

The whole idea of racism and silly racists is so foolish.

We hope to number their days.

Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:05 pm on Jan. 18, 2003 | IP
Loco


Newbie
   
The name of the state is Rio Grande do Sul, not Rio do Sul.

There is no law against migration here.

Many people from the south region states get worry about the "nordestinos" because of what they heard from "paulistas" and "cariocas".

Many people from São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro usually say that the nordestinos are destroying their cities and they are all dirty and dangerous.

The brazilian media sometimes is like the foreing media, they only show poor and bad things about the northeast region...or they show only big parties and naked people, in the same way that foreing media shows Brazil.

People from the south of Brazil are ignorants about the northeast, Im from Santa Catarina and now I live in Rio Grande do Sul, I can say that 90% of my friends hates people from northeast but they are not racist against blacks from here.

The south and the norteast are the extremes of Brazil, one is white and "rich" compared with the rest of the country and the other is black and poor.

But its hard to understand how some people from Rio can be so racist sometimes, they live in a city where all the races and cultures of Brazil get mixed, where many people from others states of Brazil lives and people from all the world go visit.

-----
SEI LÁ

Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:08 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP
Patinho



Junior Member
   


Can't we all just....... get along?

-----
"Quem quer viver faz magica"
--Guimaraes Rosa

Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:34 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
@Loco - And the black woman who was elected there.  Does she challenge this bigotry of the 'gauchos' or does she keep quiet.

Some of my Carioca friends have told me stories of what happens when certain people try to migrate to the south.  I'm told that its partially economics and partially regional and or racial.

For example....a poor Italian immigrant with no money would be welcome but a Nordestino would be asked to leave the town.

Of course..this is illegal.  According to the Brazilian constitution poverty is unconstitutional.

Que será...será.

Are there many in Rio Grand de Sul who still want to secede from Brazil?

@Patinho - "Power yields nothing without a demand" (Frederick Douglass)

We cannot plant the seeds of apathy every day and hope to see change the next morning.

That is a lesson we Americans learned in 1776.  We should teach others our history.

Peace

(I think someone is trying to attack my computer...have to deal with that).

Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:45 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP
Patinho



Junior Member
   


"Without struggle, there can be no progress."

--Fredrick Douglass

Thought maybe that applied too.....

-----
"Quem quer viver faz magica"
--Guimaraes Rosa

Total Posts: 67 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 8:55 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP
MARQUESEAZY


Junior Member
   
MOST NORDESTINOS ARE NOT BLACK BUT MEZTIZO THE AMERICAN SOUTH HAS WAY MORE BLACKS THEN BRAZIL'S NORTHEAST. I WOULD EVEN GO AS FAR TO SAY THAT ATLANTA HAS A LARGER BLACK POPULATION THEN SALVADOR WILL EVER HAVE IF YOU'VE BEEN TO BOTH CITIES THEN YOU KNOW I AM TELLING THE TRUTH

Total Posts: 88 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:48 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP
Loco


Newbie
   

 What black woman?

 I dont know about this stories.

 Many people from Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina, Parana and São Paulo wants to secede, but they are not the majority.

 "That is a lesson we Americans learned in 1776.  We should teach others our history."

  You should learn about brazilian history too and you could know why Rio Grande do Sul wanted to secede, I think you would be in the "gaúchos" side.

Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:57 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
Ma bad!  (my mistake).  I assumed that the first black governor of the state was a woman.

I am aware of some of the history of the Brazilian south.  I don't think that I ever would be considered a supporter of the secession of the south.

There are many fundamental differences between the development of the South and that of the central and North of Brazil.  The greatest advantage has been the massive land grants given to the Germans and Swiss in 1824 and later to the Japanese and Poles.  

While the those of the Sertão and freed Africans were given nothing.  Many Africans are descendants of the greatest cattle herders in Africa and were quite cabable of developing their own cattle-raising industries.  As a matter of fact....though they were not slaves...many of the early 'gauchós' workers were these runaway Africans.

But the rulers decided to Europeanize the South thus giving an advantage to foreigners while native Brazilians were being killed just to have the same opportunity at land.

And much of the gauchos reputation for fierceness and independence was as a result of the border wars with Spain.  However it was the spanish who ensured the protection of the christian indian missons at the time.  It was these missions who first introduced the idea that a certain type of agriculture and cattle could be raised there.  

However, the way was cleared for the later european immigrants with the complete destruction of these seven missions.

This was an advantage 'given' to the South not earned by the South.  Therefore I would never support any idea of their secession from Brazil.

I do honor the achievements of the South AFTER they were given this advantage.  Very efficient...very productive.

Peace

Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:08 am on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Loco


Newbie
   

  Rio Grande do Sul wanted the secession because of many things.

  My english is not good, so I will write in portuguese.

  Você sabia que antigamente o Nordeste era rico e o Sul era pobre?

  O Rio Grande do Sul lutou por causa dos altos impostos ao charque daqui enquanto os concorrentes da Argentina e Uruguai ganhavam o mercado brasileiro com a ajuda do próprio Império.

  Mas esse não foi o único motivo, havia também o fato de os gaúchos serem sempre mandandos aos campos de batalha na primeira linha e em maioria, e o Império não ajudava em quase nada.

  O Rio Grande do Sul também lutou pela liberdade dos negros, aqui os escravos nunca foram tratados da maneira como ocorreu no resto do Brasil. Claro que depois da guerra o Império Brasileiro ordenou que os negros se tornassem novamente escravos mas anos antes de a escravidão acabar eles já eram livres aqui, mesmo isso sendo ilegal.

 Os gaúchos também lutavam pela formação de uma república, queriam o fim do Império.

 Tenho muito respeito pelos cariocas e pela cultura deles, mas eles não podem falar nada dos gaúchos porque o Rio de Janeiro sempre estive no centro das atenções do governo e sempre se mantiver ao lado dele,  foram passiveis aos mandos e desmandos.

 A colonização do RS,SC e PR não foi fácil, o Império só deu terras para os primeiros imigrantes, e ainda por cima no meio de florestas, sem quase nenhuma ajuda.

 O resto do país pode falar muita coisa ruim sobre o RS, mas eles nunca lutaram a favor da liberdade dos negros, contra o império e a favor da democracia como ocorreu em 1962.

 Quando eu morava em SC também não sabia muito sobre a História do Rio Grande do Sul e também achava os gaúchos um pouco idiotas, mas depois que vim morar aqui aprendi muita coisa e posso dizer que eles são os mais politizados e preocupados com os rumos do país.

  Numa recente pesquisa feita em todos os estados do Brasil os gaúchos ficacaram no topo da lista entre os que mais tinham orgulho de ser brasileiros, só perdendo para o habitantes do Distrito Federal.

 

Total Posts: 16 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 7:53 am on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
@Loco - You are quite correct.  That much I know.  But, in my opinion, much of the confict between South, North and Central has been business interests battling business interests and not because of a belief in the ideals of liberty, freedom and brotherhood.

The North hated the South because the idea of paying free men to produce goods and services challenged every institution of slavery in the North.

When the United States ended slavery in 1865 it was not because of any love for African-Americans but as a political and military leverage against the war with the South.  

But I am not an expert on the the Brazil south.  

From what I here there are areas that are very conservative and right-wing and then there are areas that are left.  Is that true?

And though the South supported Vargas did they not also support the coup and the rule of the generals?

I am asking.  I don't know these things.

Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:07 am on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
BRENT


Newbie
   
Adrianerik said: "But I am not an expert on the the Brazil south."

You're not an expert on the U.S. south, either. There are far more reasons that the North hated the South other than the ONE you state.

Inevitably when one talks about slavery, someone moans how "it wasn't ended because of any love for blacks." Of course desire for equality factored in. To say otherwise is straight-up ignorant.


Total Posts: 22 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:18 am on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
Did you get lost bitch!  Go back to your other silly posting site on your upcoming trip with your other scum!

I was referring to the North of BRAZIL  you moron!

The antagonism was the reverse of the United States, as was the slavery.

So now...get lost.  


Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:11 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
BRENT


Newbie
   
You should be more clear with your writing. That I "misunderstood" your post is your fault, not mine.


Total Posts: 22 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:29 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Guest



Anonymous
   
I don't understand how anyone can give extact numbers on how many Black Brazilians there really are, when the way in which you conduct your census is soo blurred. I mean you have a section for people who are neither black nor white lol. So to say the numbers are small is not correct just as to say the numbers are high. No one really knows and that's very sad. Brazil has so many labels for their people especially if they aren't white. It's really a shame and I see Brazil as worst than the United States on this matter. So I can't dispute it one way or the other, because your own government can't agree. Which leads me to believe that life as a Black in Brazil must be pretty shitty if they are hoping everyone is anything but a Morena. Thank God for Spanish countries!

Total Posts: 211 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 3:14 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
Liz


Newbie
   
JOE GAHONA, LUCAS is right.
Racism is different in Brazil and a subtle breeze if compared to the tornado of what we see here in the USA.
AND IT'S A SHOCKING DIFFERENCE. I FEEL REALLY BAD LIVING IN THIS ANIMOSITY ENVIRONMENT.
When in Bahia, where the population is predominantly black, I have never been treated differently or badly for being white. HERE I AM.  
In the southernmost parts of Brazil, where the European culture predominates, no black guy will be treated differently for being in a restaurant that has only white people.
On the other hand, here, the first doctor that I chose was black, and so were his nurses and all of the patients. Unaware of those strong and horrible habits of racism practiced in everyday situations, only after half an hour in the waiting room I realized why everyone looked at me with an angry face: I was the only white person there.
AGAIN, I AM NOT SAYING RACISM DOESNT EXIST IN BRAZIL. YES, IT DOES. But it's only a little spice in the food. In the USA it seems to be the main dish.

Total Posts: 5 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 6:58 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 | IP
 

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