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        Lula, & Brazil's social, political economic issues
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erjbcdt


Junior Member
   
Ok, basically I just want to mention I a few things that I have learned about Brazil since 1998. I was born there but moved to the US and it was not until 1999 that I visited Brazil.
So basically I find there exists a lot of good things in Brazil and a lot of problems that need to be fixed.  Ok most importantly is the support of the Brazilian state.  The state has a system which allows for Brazilians with high education to be put in a speacial, better prision.  Then there is a speacial private pension system for public employees, judges, and other high level jobs. The pension system runs large defecits, that every Brazilian taxpayer must fund by paying taxes.  Then there is the public university system which also has a speacial plan.  Basically if you are the best in the Vestibular exam you get into the best schools which are the federal schools in Brazil.  Now who are the students who do the best on the VESTibular?  The kids who have lots of money and go to the best private schools? WHy does the federal government pay for the richest kids to go to the best schools?  Brazil invests very little in public school education and this is the manner to eliminate poverty in Brazil.  Public schools were great when my dad was growing up but someone needs to rebuild the schools so someone who lives in Brazil's favelas and go to the same schools with someone who is rich and have equal opportunity to advance in society. I think inquality in Brazil comes directly from these systems created a long time ago.  If you disagree then tell me otherwise.

What I think is a better system is to eliminate the speacial jail system and send everyone to a common jail.   That will put pressure on society to improve the justice system in Brazil.  Then I think that there needs to be univerisal pension system, like the reform Lula wants to pass.  I hope Lula also invest billions in improving public school education.    

The other pressing reform is the need to establish the first word on the Brazilian flag and that is ordem.  Order is lost in Brazil.  Politicians, like Ladim from CE, was taped asking for brides from a known traffic dealer, known as Leonardo.  Why is it that he can just resign and eventually come back to the congress.  It is unfair he should be in jail and so should Jader Barbalho, ACM, Roseana Sarney, her husband,Arruda and hundred other politicians that created an elist justice system which they control.  

The labor laws in Brazil also need to change.  There were created during the Gutilio Vargas era and that was around 1930's.  Times have changed and the economy is very different now so to be able to compete in the international market there needs to be more reforms.  

So I talk to much but I hope I can get people to discuss some of these issues, thank you, I will reply and open up more issues in the future!

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Viva Brazil

Total Posts: 54 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 11:03 pm on Feb. 1, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
The way of the politician is fraught with peril.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:04 am on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
RE: public schools.

More people from the favelas get into federal University now than they would if we were to dump the federal system and privatize everything.

The problem isn't that Brazil chooses the best for its federal schools. That's as it should be. the problem is that education for the poor is so piss poor that very few of them can compete for the limited vacancies in the federal schools. The solution is simple: improve basic education in Brazil for the poor, allowing them to compete on a more level basis in the vestibular.

Maybe it's just me, but I DO notice that most people who complain about the unfairness of the federal system aren't so often the poor, but the middle class who - for what evre reason - can't compete on the federal level either and have to thus pay for their education.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:31 am on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP
erjbcdt


Junior Member
   
Well I agree that the best way to help the poor is to improve the public schools in Brazil, but thats has not yet occured.  
Ok have you ever seen the parking lot of cars at the Federal Univeristy?   They are the best and most expensive cars in the Brazilian market, so my question is it fair that the rich get a free ride in the univeristy?
Personally let me say that I will admit I am above middle-class status in Brazil, I can guarantee you that.  
Plus what you think about the two other systems that exist in Brazil? Are they fair too?  
If you look at every country in Europe, they have a system of good quality public schools, until college then you have to pay to go, and the rule I believe is if your parents make less then a certain amount of income than you can go for free to federal universities.  That would allow the poor to still go to public univerisities, once they prove it by showing their income tax.  The problem I am also trying to allure to is that great public education is given to the rich, who are the ones who want the current system to stay the same since they are the ones who benefit the most from it.  Then there is the poor who cant deal with the situation since there is a daily struggle to put food on the table, so clearly it has to be the middle-class who argues for this change.      
It would be fair if the federal univerisities gave everyone a free opportunity who desired to enter the university.  Did you know that the average schooling for a Brazilian is 7 years and for a "blacks" is like 5 years?  This is the reason of such inequality and such chao in one of the worlds richest countries.  Brazil is the 9th biggest economy in the entire freaking world, and I am trying to pin point certain aspects that I beleive are problemic to creating a better social structure.  

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Viva Brazil

Total Posts: 54 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 8:19 pm on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
Já existe um sistema de cotas para universidades públicas destinado aos estudantes da rede pública.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:21 pm on Feb. 2, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
ERJB,

Frankly, I think the best should be allowed in, whatever their class. Why? Because if we can't provide a first class education for these folks, they'll get it by leaving Brazil. then where will we be?

That said, I think some sort of public service requirement should be included in federal universities.

The REAL way to fix this isn't by trashing one of the few poles of excellence left in our educational system: it's by improving the others so that class isn't such a cut any more! I'm suprised that so many middle class Brazilians can't or won't see this and there's only one explanation for it in my mind: dor de cotovelo.

France, IIRC, doesn't force students to pay for the best universities.


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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:19 am on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP
erjbcdt


Junior Member
   
Hey its funny that you both were unable to answer my question if its fair or not to have this type of education?
Yes France's univerisities are free but french public schools are good quality and so their is an equal playing field for anyone to get into those universities.  Does that exist for Brazil?  First, the point I am trying to make is that Brazil's federal universities unjustly help the rich continue to be rich.  Now you know if they graduate from federal univerisities they automatically have a high chance to get a job in Brazil.  NOW IF THEY WOULD PAY, 100 REALS A MONTH, with that money they could spend it on improving federal universities.  By making you pay it would force the politician who listen to the wealthiest Brazilians improve public schools and force them to improve the overall education system in Brazil and thats what I want?  THe way the system should occur is that people in Brazil should have good qualitye education until they want to go to college then they should pay, if they can afford it, to go to federal univerisities.
WHAT YOU GUYS THINK OF THE OTHER TWO SYSTEMS THAT I MENTIONED, SPECIAL PRISONS AND SPEACIAL RETIREMENT PROGRAMS HUH? fAIR?


Macunaima, I was born in Brazil, but I live in the United States 1999 and I go to college here in the United States,so your arguement that I am an angry middle class is just plain wrong. My parents both work here in the USA, and frankly my dad owns an apartment in California worth a 250,000 dollars, why dont you go online and calculate it in terms of Reals? My dad had tenure in the federal university of Bahia at the age of 22, so I could have probably went to study there along with my brothers.  Plus my mom owns an apartment in a city near Sao Paulo, Sao Jose dos Campos, and my family owns a three story house story house in Salvador, so if thats middle class then damn Brazil must have less problems then I though?

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Viva Brazil

Total Posts: 54 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 6:24 am on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
"Yes France's univerisities are free but french public schools are good quality and so their is an equal playing field for anyone to get into those universities.  Does that exist for Brazil?"

No. It should. By paying for universities, one only insures that poor people will NEVER get in. what the state needs to do is ensure quality education at all levels. We need to pull the rest of the system up, not push what works down.

I don't know if I'd be against a 100 real a month charge, but something makes me suspect that people would easily find a way to prove how poor they are. 100 reais per student per month is also a drop in the bucket re:university expenses and it might just open the door for the sucateação da universidade, being that politicians would then be tempted to continuously up mensalities until only the rich could pay, anyhow.

Re: prisons and the retirement system, I don't think anyone's arguing because people don't find the current system very just.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with the rest of the post. I'm not using you as an example of the angry middle class. You're dad is probably a good example of brain-drain, however.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 10:22 am on Feb. 3, 2003 | IP
erjbcdt


Junior Member
   
I must agree with you that my dad is a good example of brain drain, but he tells me now that he plans to move back to Brazil in a few years, I dont live with him I got to college in Boston, and he lives in California.

Alright I understand your position, and I think you make a good point.  I would support increasing quotas for blacks and mulattos, and try to slowly reform the federal university system.  But I still believe that the system is completely unjust in its current form and 100 reals per student per month attending federal universities would be at least a few million reals which could pay for renovations and increases in salaries.  Your right that politicians would continue to increase the month fees and the black market would thrive to prove that you were poor and could not afford to pay, so that wont work.

Ok would does any one think of Lula and his administration?  Do you think Jose Sarney as president of Senate would help or hurt Brazil?  Do you think Lula has enough political support to pass reforms, like tax, social security, and labor.  I think he will pass 2 of these critical reforms, most likely to pass is social security, previdencia, and then most likely labor.  I dont know but at least two reforms in four years is good considering how many years these reforms have been in discussion.

Alright but I think the most critical reform is judicial, the justice system is clearly out of control, unable to tackle Brazil increasing criminal problems.  Violence has gotten out of control, especially in certain neighborhoods in RIo de Janiero.  The police force needs to be united, and the mayors should have control of the police force.  The governors should control a police estadal, which is state police force that patrols the highways and other issues like that.  
Today the PT got rid of certain radical PT members who created the PSTU and I am happy to see them go, they were useless anyways.  

Ok well any other issues that people want to discuss just name it.    

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Viva Brazil

Total Posts: 54 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 1:03 pm on Feb. 4, 2003 | IP
erjbcdt


Junior Member
   
Can anyone believe that ACM, Antionio Carlos Maghalaes is the going to head the Constituion and Justice commission in the senate?  I cant understand that he resigned because he broke the laws and broke the consitution and now he is the head commissioner of this important commission.

And Jose Sarney is the president of the Senate, how many CPI invistigated deals made during his term as President.  He is directly involved in corrupt deals and I agree with Helosa and Duante voting against this monster in power.  These oligarchs should be in prison and not corrupting the house of the people of Brazil.

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Viva Brazil

Total Posts: 54 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 3:19 pm on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP
krista



Junior Member
   
just on the education topic for now...
...I think you're completely right on that, for one, there should be quotas for the black and mulatto brasilians. Even though they may come from a worse high school or so, these would be the people building up the new and more fair public education system; these would be the people motivated to work towards it, because they have the inside experience and the emotional connection to the less advantaged groups.



(Edited by krista at 7:20 pm on Feb. 6, 2003)

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Radio Do Mar: http://www.live365.com/stations/226288

Total Posts: 97 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:02 pm on Feb. 6, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Quotas

Well, with all the brew-ha-ha over quotas, here's an interesting little tidbit for you:

Quota was made at UERJ and UFRJ WITHOUT having to let anyone in who wouldn't have normally got in. In other words, the 20 percent of vacancies that are to be filled by african descended students were filled normally in the course of selecting students based on vestibular scores.

So 1 of 2 things is happening (or perhaps both)...

1) either there are a lot more black students in the university than anyone suspected or

2) students who wouldn't normally declare themselves as "black" did so when they felt it would gain them something concrete.

In any case, even with the much ballyhooed quotas, NOT ONE STUDENT GOT INTO UERJ/URFJ WHO WOULDN'T HAVE GOT IN BEFORE QUOTAS.

Like I've said before, quotas are a pallative that won't work to produce real change. If the qualifier "black student" is used in the hypodescedant scence (i.e. one drop of black "blood" makes one black), then 90 percent of the white people in Brazil can easily prove their blackness for the purpose of quotas.

The funny thing was that the Movement STROVE for a hyperdescendant definition of "black" and now they're getting bit on the ass 'cause guess what? Almost everyone in Brazil has some provable black ancestry.

So much for quotas.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:24 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Adrianerik


Newbie
   
Seemed the most appropriate place to ask this.  I just read about what seems to be a proposed merger between TAMS and VARIG.  I have friends who work at TAMS but it is too early to call them.

Is this true?  (the merger plans).

I knew that VARIG (as well as their United States partner UNITED, were having problems) but I missed this information.

I'm interested in the poitics of it.  Is it a buyout of one by the other....which one?  

It's interesting.  Despite the rivalry many TAMS workers were very sympathetic to VARIGs problems.


Total Posts: 50 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:13 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
krista



Junior Member
   
"NOT ONE STUDENT GOT INTO UERJ/URFJ WHO WOULDN'T HAVE GOT IN BEFORE QUOTAS"

Is that true? If so, perhaps the problem is somewhere else than in the race... I don't know the details of this whole issue too well, but I had an impression from the postings of erjbcdt that the problem was quite deep. No?
Perhaps the criteria for the quota should be something else? (now that you pointed it out, i realize how useless it is to try to divide brasilians into separate racial groups...) I know how annoying this quota-talk can be...and it does become ridiculous when taken too far. However, I do believe that if more students from remote areas or areas with extremely poor public education were encouraged to go to university...futhermore, if they were encouraged to get perhaps a teacher education, the level of public education may slowly become more balanced. These students would be more likely to bring about change than any other, because they would know the conditions, and also they would have the emotional connection to those less advantaged places/people. Maybe offer a small stipend for students in certain departments, or for students from certain areas...Then again, producing more teachers alone is definitely not a solution in itself. However, I believe Brasil has right now a good and enthusiastic education minister; so if circumstances allow, I'd expect some good ideas from that man (i think i said it somewhere else too, but let me repeat: i have this enormous respect for Cristovam Buarque for all the work he has done on the Bolsa-Escola idea/project.

connected to that topic I have a few questions of my own:
-do Brasilians move around a lot when going to university, or do they mainly go to the one closest to their home?
-Is the number of available spots in each department predetermined by the government/university, or does it depend completely on how many accepted students wish to study in each department (like in the american system)?

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Radio Do Mar: http://www.live365.com/stations/226288

Total Posts: 97 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:40 am on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
Estudante de Ingles


Newbie
   
Hi, friends.

I can't stand quotas for black students at University. This is discrimination. We need a excellent  public teaching , fundamental and  intermediate. But the public university should not be gratuitous. So, quotas for blacks, whites and indians that can´t pay.

My humble opinion.



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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 2:15 pm on Feb. 7, 2003 | IP
erjbcdt


Junior Member
   
Krista, this post is in response to your previsious posting

Brazilians on average prefer to go to a university close to their home.  Many parents also support their sons decision to go to a univeristy close to home, because they parents and children like to be close to each other.

Now the system in Brazil has a specific limits of spots for each department and the top student for the Vestibular, entrance exam, make into these competitive departments.  It is not like the US system, in the way that you can change your major anytime you choose.  If you pass the vestibular exam in medicine then a year later decide you want to switch you have to do the exam once again, for the new area you now want to enter.  

Ok well I hope this answers your question,

erjbcdt  

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Viva Brazil

Total Posts: 54 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 11:35 am on Feb. 8, 2003 | IP
Iverson


Newbie
   
Macunaima,

so you  and many otheres are against affirmativeaction for blacks? that aint right yo , when black brazilians where slaves  they sh`d  blood, sweat and tears  , black slaves been working for  500+ and for free ,  now you don,t wanna pay for that free work , i can see racist and double stand in your action , you are against every thing good for blacks , as i said before you are hater to the bones , i yet have to see you say some thing good or speak for blacks in your posts ,  its people like you that holding black brazilians back and poor , people like you who scream wolf when ever they hear some thing little for blacks ,

you white brazilians don`t wanna give back , black slaves made brazil what its now , honor that , ain`t  you ashamed to have it all , you keep saying brazil is country of future , country of future for white brazilians ,
i am sorry but  anti-black is strong in brazil , and i see it here in this forum , my friends keep telling me brazil is most racist country , even little affirmative action for blacks is driving you mad and eating you ,

history of brazil was dark (slavery, racism ) , let its future be bright .

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 11:39 am on Feb. 8, 2003 | IP
erjbcdt


Junior Member
   
Adrianerik ,
from what I am reading it is true that Varig and Tam will be joining forces in a merger between the two companies.  Now I dont believe a buy-out is possible I think they first want to create a new company together.  Both companies are out of credit and suffering from high debt levels, Varig has 2.7 billion reals, (767 million dollars) in debt, and TAM has debt a little below the level of Varig's.

There is a problem with the merger according to Brazilian law no company can own more than 50% of the domestic industry, but Varig and Tam with there join airplane companies make up 70% of the domestic market.  But no one knows if GOL or VASP will try any legal precedures because AMbev which was join between Antartica and Brahama know controls 80% of the soft drink industry.  
I always fly VArig and I am happy to see this merger occur but I think they might be forced to sell some assets and the govt might provide funds for the merger to occur.   BNDES (development bank) would most likely provide the needed funds but for now it is in the rough planning stages.

Erjbcdt, Dan

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Viva Brazil

Total Posts: 54 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 11:44 am on Feb. 8, 2003 | IP
erjbcdt


Junior Member
   
Iverson,

Well I will tell you that I am a white Brazilian and I have visited Brazil for several months and I feel like I have to reply to your post.

First, Macunaima does bring up some respectable questions that need answering.  Since the quota system does exist now in Brazilian universities, how is the university to decide who is black, white or mulatto?  It is important to educate blacks who on average suffer from a lack of quality in public schools.  But there needs a system to make sure that blacks, not anyone who is let say white, but decides to put that mulatto and gets in just because of that.

Now I must say Brazil, in my opinion, is not the most racist country in the world.  Austria has a strong conservative tradition against immigrants.  Sweden is also hostile towards immigrants, blacks who try to enter there country to live off their welfare state.  
Europe overall has a strong resentment towards black, and immigrants from Africa coming into Europe.  So I am sure Brazil is not the most racist country.
Now it is true Brazil has enourmous issues in terms of race.  First and most evident is the system of social disparity among the races.  Ok most Brazilians who are black still live in the North East region which is the area where less economic development occured.  The reason is that during the boom years of the 50's-60-70's the government invested in mainly the south east and center west regions.  The southern most states also got help too.  So the citizens of the Northeast, who are majority black, came to Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro to find work at factories.  The reason they left was because the rumors in the region said that there were pleanty of jobs in Sao Paulo and Rio.  All the investment done by the govt helped these cities expand. But Why did any govt officials invest heavily in the NORTHEAST regions to create jobs and wealth in that region?  They needed the jobs just as bad as Sao Paulo and Rio did.  The NOrthEast suffered from drought and other severe economic harships.  Well when the people emmigrated to the south east region they found out the rumors were not true and then they did not want to go back to the misery of a life in the Northeast due to the drought.  The people from the Northeast had very little money so they had to build favelas.  These are shanty-towns.  
What I just said is clearly just a rough outline it is vastly more complicated.  

Most importantly besides disparity of wealth and education there is also critical issues of race that the country has ignored for several hundred decades.  These are the toughest issues and it starts off with national black leadership.  Now Lula just appointed the first vice-president of the senate who is a black senator.  There has never been a vice-president, or president of the senate who is black.  You have to begin somewhere and that is where I believe you start.

Ok well hopefully I have shed some light into Brazils situation and I hope to hear from you again.

Erjbcdt

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Viva Brazil

Total Posts: 54 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 12:12 pm on Feb. 8, 2003 | IP
Estudante de Ingles


Newbie
   
I-'m not racist.
however, I'm against affirmative actions for black students. That is not isonomic.
For me, THAT is discrimination, prejudice, racism.
I agree with professor Macunaima.
We have to help poor people, the skin is not relevant.

Yours,
Estudante de Inglês.

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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 12:55 pm on Feb. 8, 2003 | IP
krista



Junior Member
   
Estudante de Ingles puts it quite right...
the help should go to the poor people regardless of their skin color. However, the race quotas are often there because it is usually the people of darker skin color that belong to the poor groups of the society...

I don't know about Brasil that well... in US they also have all kinds of quotas in order to "increase diversity"... But I have this impression that the reason for quotas in Brasil has a different cause.

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Radio Do Mar: http://www.live365.com/stations/226288

Total Posts: 97 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 1:57 pm on Feb. 8, 2003 | IP
Iverson


Newbie
   
Estudante de Ingles ,

what about paying for 500 years of slavery , huh ?  are you against that  too , you guys drank from blood , sweat and tears of black people , now you are against some little pay back , you gotta take your head outa your arse dawg , brazil , white brazil and people like you benefited from slavery  ,

people like you are just racist who wanna keep blacks poor and back word , you are one kinda snike two-face ass ,  you ain`t fooling no one , you are anti-black , keep on saying you ain`t racist couse you are,

black brazil deserve to get fair play , i see same slave master mentalty here , whata shame on brazilians , i ain`t got no respect for brazil until it treats its black people right , sorry to say that but tha,s the way its.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 3:10 pm on Feb. 8, 2003 | IP
Iverson


Newbie
   
@ erjbcdt,
I hear you dawg , its good to see brazil honor its black people , i mean its been 5oo+ of oppression , i call brazil to right the wrong , unless you fix the problem it will keep coming back to you , no matter how long it takes , brazil gotta right hostoric wrong it did to its black people ,

and thank you for clearing some points for me  .

        peace homie.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 3:22 pm on Feb. 8, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
You are not a slave and as a citizen like any other, should have the same rights.
If you have more rights than I, It is I who will demand for my share. You seek no equalitie, you seek to get a bigger share than you deserve.

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:28 pm on Feb. 8, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
DROP THE HIGH AND MIGHTY ACT, YOU ARE NOT A BRAZILIAN AND HAVE NO VOTE HERE. Begone with your bulshit of "keep coming back to you". You have no brothers in this country, nor any rights.

Sometimes I get this wish to kill every single gringo that think that this is his land. Learn that we have a sovereignity, this is not an extension of your country, you are a FOREIGNER.

We welcome you as a visitor, accept you if you wish to become our neighboor, but your rule, we spit.

"Untill your country tolerates bi-racial unions, and multiple ancestry I'll keep coming"


... hipocrit imperialist.

(Edited by Ze at 4:07 pm on Feb. 8, 2003)

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:04 pm on Feb. 8, 2003 | IP
krista



Junior Member
   
erjbcdt: thank you for explaining me about the universities and education system. that helped.

Iverson: If everyone opted for revenge for atrocities committed centuries ago what would become of the world??? Your attitude is the wrongest one possible!!!! No one should pay for mistakes made by their ancestors. Instead, the current situation needs to be fixed and that would mean giving everyone equal chances, NOT preferring some over others; not whites over blacks, and not black over whites.
(yet, i still remain to the point that while no one group should be preferred to another..sometimes one group needs to be helped in order to assure they get at least some opportunities)


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Radio Do Mar: http://www.live365.com/stations/226288

Total Posts: 97 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 9:56 pm on Feb. 8, 2003 | IP
Estudante de Ingles


Newbie
   
Iverson,

Racism has three brothers: intolerance, violence and ignorance.


1) You don't know how my face looks like and how my voice sounds, how do you know that the slavery was good for me and my family?

2) Many black people are against quotas for black students like myself.  If some individuals have a negative opinion about quotas for black students, they are not  necessarily racists.

3) I think quotas for black people is unfair. They are so rare, but we have rich black people here. Quotas for them, why? We need quotas for poor people cause all citizens of all colors have the same constitutional right:  education, not only the black ones.

by the way, a new scientific understanding of brazilian society ( Federal University of Minas Gerais): all brazilians have black ancestors, the whites included. The exceptions are insignificant.

I am too proud for that.
That is my humble opinion, only a opinion, sir.

Alguém pode me ajudar com a expressão tão carinhosa lançada contra mim?
"one kinda snike two-face ass": seria algo como "um  cu de  cobra de duas caras?" Esses gringos sabem esculhambar..ahahahahahah!

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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 12:23 am on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
krista



Junior Member
   
...and in addition to the intellectual value/occasional
good discussion, this forum also offers good humor.
Thank you, Estudante de Ingles.

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Radio Do Mar: http://www.live365.com/stations/226288

Total Posts: 97 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:38 am on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
Iverson


Newbie
   
Ingel ,

Say what ? all brazilians got black blood? well , picture this the whole world got black blood , what about that ,sorry  thats lame axcuse  ,  must of people in U.S.A got black in them , but that didn`t keep usa from righting the wrong (or at least trying to do so) ,

And what that lame axcuse of saying we have some rich black people , let me ask you some , how many poor black people you got out there in brazi , so again thats not good excuse to say (we have 10 rich black people) when you have millions who are poor,

About you supporting affirmativeaction  for all poor people  , thats cool , but who suffred more ( from eslavery , racism) black people did , and most of poor people are black or mullatos ( i hate to use this word , its insulting word)  , you have to look back at history to have good future .

   peace.

Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 2:43 am on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
Do you wish to eliminate racism, your do you just wish for a bigger share of the cake?

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 3:33 am on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Iverson,

I'll try to say this in as simple a way as possible because you obviously have trouble understanding where I'm coming from.

I am not against affirmative action. I WANT TO SEE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION THAT WORKS.  If we put a 20 percent racial quota on our schools and it then turns out that not one person gets in who wouldn't have got in anyhow, then that's not very effective affirmative action, is it?

It's fools like you,Iverson, who make it so hard to get any REAL change done here in Brazil. If you'd've been here during the quotas debate, I have no doubts that you would have been screaming that I was a racist fuck for going against them. You wouldn't have really looked at what was going on until too late, because your rhettoric is more important to you than a straight look at reality.

Bottom line: quotas are a great idea in that they get everyone talking about this issue. In that sense I support them. But in actual practice, they will turn out to be worse than nothing because they will make it appear that something is being done when in fact NOTHING IS. Plus, they will generate a lot of resentment - justified or not - and make it that much harder to push through affirmative action plans that might really work.

There are two major problems with quotas as far as I can see:

1) What is black in Brazil? The Movement doesn't want to address this issue, but it's at the base of the problem here. When they do deal with it, they deal with it in a very counter-productive way. According to the MNU and most black pressure groups I know, "black" should mean anyone who isn't "white". In other words, they think the proper definition of black is the American hyperdescendant one. However, we live in a country where almost everyone can prove SOME African ancestry and very, very few people are exactly pale-skinned. So it's quite easy for a socially valenced "white" person to pass themselves off as "black" if they have a reason to gain for it. They'll be "white" everywhere else except on their college entrance record.

2) Are all "blacks" truly that poor? Different from most of the folks on this forum, I study and teach in the university system here. There were already a fair number of black students before the dogfight over quotas got underway. Certainly more than 10 percent of the student body, even discounting people who have some African heritage but are socially valenced as white. I think all sides on this debate got themselves worked up by their rhettoric over how there were "no" black students in the schools when there already was, in fact, a significant minority. Setting the quota at 20 percent thus really didn't change much of anything at all.

REAL affirmative action, to my way of thinking, would involve admissions boards and an entrance selection that looked at more than one's vestibular scores. Many Brazilians are leary of this, however, because they (probably rightly) feel that favoritism and patronage would enter into the system if this was done.

Another possible "quota" system that might produce better results is to reserve a quota of vacancies for students who studied in and graduated from a public high-school. that has it's problems, too, because in Rio there ARE some good PHS. Pedro Segundo, for one. One could then fill one's quota exclusively with students from these.

Here's some major issues that are not being talked about which are all, to my thinking, much more important than quotas if our goal is truly putting more poor and black students through the university...

1) Scholarships. It doesn't do anyone any good to get into a federal school if one has to work 60 hours a week to support one's family aside from studying for 40-50 hours. Without real financial aid, poor students will be quickly pushed out of school, even if they do get in. Here's where affirmative action could really help: WE NEED MORE SCHOLARSHIPS SPECIFICALLY FOR POOR AND BLACK STUDENTS! Any of y'all wanna help out by founding some? A 1000 dollar trust fund goes an awfully long way in Brazi. Think about it.

2) What careers are poor and black students going into when they leave the schools? Do they get hired, even with their education? Several studies indicate that this may not be the case...

3) What courses are they taking at school? Most poor black students seem to be in the humanities and go from there into teaching. There are very, very few in the high power/high money professions such as law, engineering and business. Yvonne Maggie, one of the big wheels at UFRJ, rather sarcastically calls this the "lower clergy syndrome", where "real jobs" are reserved for rich whites, while college educated working class blacks go off to teach high school.

4) What about the pre-vestibular system in the favelas? Free prep courses have been set up by many community groups and they seem to be doing a pretty good job of preparing poor and black students for the college entrance exams. The federal government has been very parsimonious with funds to support these intiatives, despite their proven efficacy. This casts the whole quota debate in a more sinister light. A program that DOES work to put more blacks in school, but costs money, is being dumped in favor of rhettoric ABOUT putting more blacks in school that costs nothing.

5) Finally, one little factoid that's gone missing in this entire debate refers to the gross regional inequalities in Brazil. The economic and educational differences between, say, the populatiuon of Piauí as a whole and that of Rio de Janeiro stand in starker contrast than those apparent between white and black cariocas. So not only do we have to have affirmative action, we need to start moving excellence away from the Belo-Rio-SP triangle and into other areas of the country. If 90 percent of the available affirmative action funds and energy gets dumped into the Rio-SP axis, as seems likely, little real change is going to take place.

Like I said, I think a big portion of the Movement got taken for a ride on the quotas debate, though it's still too early to say anything definite. The upshot of all this, however, unless Lula can turn a pig's ear into a silk glove somehow, is that quotas will not bring appreciably more poor black students into the public university system.

Re: the "who's black" debate, my friend Silvia has a great facetious suggestion: "Just turn any questions of racial identity over to the Military Police. They always seem to know who's black and who isn't, somehow..."

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:55 am on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
Estudante de Ingles


Newbie
   
Iverson,


1) I don't like boxing, verbal boxing included. 'Peace' is a good word to type. Obrigado.

1)Ok, Iverson,  If the Homo sapiens birthplace was Africa, the whole mankind has africans ancertors. But the reaserch i was talking about brings  us something different: the genetic proves that the interracial mix between the europeans and africans that arrived here  was bigger than any assumption.

2) I agree with you. Slavery was a shame, a terrible blood stain in brazilian history. You think quotas for blacks are a good compensation, if i understand your point. I dont't. For me, it's a effective way to increase racial tensions in Brazil, to discriminate  people on the basis of skin color.

3)In a hiphothetic Brazil, where only 10 black people are rich, (Pelé and his family) do you agree the State has to pay their education instead of  educate the poor whites ones?

4) Who suffered and who suffers more in Brazil: not only the blacks, but the indians ( they was slaves too), in a few words,  the Great  and Creative Brazilian Poor Mix. Quotas for them.

5) You think the word mullato is a insult. Why?  If you have a hybrid, you need a new name for him. If my mother is black and my father is white, i"m not black, I'm not white... I'm something else, it's clear to me. That's  what the word mullato means.
..

PAZ.


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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 10:00 am on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
Iverson


Newbie
   
Ingle ,

i ain`t trying to diss you , so chill ,

O.k here we go , you said native indians need quotas ,  correct me if i am wrong ,  indians already have many quotas set aside for them ,   you don`t have problem with quotas for indians , but when it comes to blacks y,all screaming wolf and all that ,

And It's pretty easy to know who is black in Brazilian society, that's not really a problem.  as some one said already  (The police seem to know that well ),

Black brazilians need affirmativeaction , the ground should be leveled for fair play , many descendants of Africans say they think they aren't much better off than back in the slave days,

Brazil needs aggressive affirmative action program for tens of millions of descendants of African slaves in an effort to make amends for the gross racial inequality that persists 114 years after emancipation , Afro-Brazilians lag behind their white peers in income, education and almost all social indicators ,
Just as South Africa had  apartheid, Brazil has apartheid , and the whole world knows that , brazil gotta do the right things  ,

with affirmativeaction blacks will feel motivated to study ,If he(black person) wants to be a lawyer, he can study because he knows he will now have a number ,


And i thing To qualify for consideration under the quotas, Brazilians should not be asked to describe their skin color but whether they are Afro-Brazilian .


 peace.


Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 11:18 am on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
erjbcdt


Junior Member
   
Hey I would like to state for the record that I mentioned the regional problems in Brazil, with Northeast and Southeast region.  Now the attention is focused in the southeast region because there is such a high consentration of people.

Now let me talk about the pre vestibular program, number 4 on the professors list.  I have a friend who attends UFRJ Flumenese en Niteroi, Rio de Janiero.  He volunteers for the pre vestibular program to teach poor people how to pass the exam.  Now he told me that they govt a fews year back wanted to provide funds to the program.  Well the volunteers program does not want federal money because they want the volunteers to teach because they honestly feel like teaching and not to teach the poor because of the money.  Money in this way I think is wrong, because it takes away from the actual education teaching process.  It should be a volunteer program but maybe the money should go to building them facilities.  

Hey now I will sound off in this educaton debate.  First I dont believe the professor when he says there are a fair number of black students in the university before the quotas.  Ok well I am reading the book FHC Era and let me just say that only 2% of the total population in the univerisities consider themselves black.  Now do you know the average age of blacks that attend school  is 6 years.  I also know the problem exists for whites when the average schoolling is 8 years.  Education for both races is clearly a problem but clearly the whites are the vast majority who attend federal schools which are free, and we know that only a few blacks go to private colleges because there are so expensive.  

But honestly is anyone going to debate the issue that the vast majority of people in Brazil who are poor are black.  I visited the favelas of Salvador, and I can say from first hand experience that the vast majority are black.  It is clear you dont need to ask them what skin color they are.  Just look at the people who beg on the sidewalks or the little kids who wait by your car!  They are 99% of the time black,  Now granted 65% of the population is black but it is clear the majority of people who live in the favelas are black, so there needs a program that supports educating blacks.  There is a quato system in place, and I can guarantee you that Lula will not change this so for the next four years we will see if the system is working only after decades, and if it is not working then we need to reform the process.  

Some one else mentioned that racial tensions will rise if quatos exist, I believe, from the experience of quatos system in the UNited States, that after decades of a quato system these racial tensions will be set off by the increasing number of black people who make it to prominent positions in society.

I dont know what to say about the current quato system in Brazil because I dont know too much about it, but I do believe there needs to exist some project to provide education to Brazils poor minority who are black, and indians.    
 

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Viva Brazil

Total Posts: 54 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 11:56 am on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
"Some one else mentioned that racial tensions will rise if quatos exist, I believe, from the experience of quatos system in the UNited States, that after decades of a quato system these racial tensions will be set off by the increasing number of black people who make it to prominent positions in society."

Could you please discuss a little further in this subject?

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 12:55 pm on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
erjbcdt


Junior Member
   
Sure I can discuss this a little futher.

When quato and affirmative action came into effect in the USA in the 60's and 70's and at first there resentment by a small white conservative group.  But as trends show blacks and hispanics have improved.  The number of blacks in prominent positions has grown.  For example look at Colin Powell he admits he would have never gotten to where he did in society without the help of affirmative action and actually disagree with the bush administration on its policy to take up Univ of Michigan Affirmative Action program.  
Also there is the respectable CEO of American Express who is a black man.  Then there is Condoleence Rice who is national security advisor.  The level of blacks in college is slowly growing and the number of blacks and hispanics dropping out of school is on the decrease.  I admit that maybe even without quatos these trends would have probably still have occured but quotas and affirmative action have helped minorities achieve higher levels of education.  

Ok well then after the OJ simpson case the white people in California decided that it was time that blacks were achieving high and decided to change the affirmative action program to a different program.  

Well I will write more later,

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Viva Brazil

Total Posts: 54 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 7:07 pm on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
Estudante de Ingles


Newbie
   
Ok people, let's try again:

Public Federal University: Who can pay it, have to pay it. Quotas for the poor people.  And a good public gratuitous education for them. So, they can go to university with a good  knowledge.

1) We need quotas in a unfair country like Brazil.
2) Quotas for the blacks, the poor ones.
3) Quotas for the indians, the poor ones.
4) Quotas for the whites, the poor ones

Quotas for the poor ones. Race is not relevant. Race is a quimera. What is my race? I don't know...

South Africa apartheid: people segregated by the law.
Brazil: interracial love and children.

A apple is not a pineapple. We have big problems here, but it is not apartheid. Maybe, a economic apartheid...




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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 7:20 pm on Feb. 9, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Iverson,

I notice you like tossing that word "peace" around, but that you also like jumping  down peoples' throat with both feet when you think they disagree with you. Nothing I said here or anywhere else is against affirmative action and when I prove this to you, I don't even get an "Oh. Sorry. Misunderstood." Peace...

Rhettoric is cheap, friend. Real action is tough.

Re: quotas for Indians, AFAIK, none exist. There are government programs specifically directed towards helping out the Indians (i.e. affirmative action) but no quotas.

erjbcdt:

"Ok well I am reading the book FHC Era and let me just say that only 2% of the total population in the univerisities consider themselves black."

Well, there's two problems wioth that stat: 1) I'm taling specifically about Rio, not the federation as a whole and 2) "consider themselves black"... That was BEFORE there was an incentive to consider oneself black. Now there are plenty of "marrom bom-bons" who are going around considering themselves to be black.

"But honestly is anyone going to debate the issue that the vast majority of people in Brazil who are poor are black."

According to who, you or them? Because if it's according to them, no the majority of the poor in Brazil are not black.

This is the huge problem with this debate: we haven't even been able to define what we mean by "black". In some moments, people count blacks via the American hypodescendant method. In others, via the "color" method. Thus, depending on who's doing the counting and when, the quantity of Blacks in Brazil ranges from, what, 6 to 70 percent.

That's quite a jump!

And the quota law doesn't even specifiy, exactly, what's black. Apparently it's left up to the individual in question. Well, OK, I'm a dark tan south zone kid who's hip to the quotas debate because I read the news. One of my great grandfathers is black and one is Indian. Well shit: why not put down "black" in the race category? It isn't exactly a lie and it might help me get in. It certainly can't hurt...

You see he kind of problems this may cause?

"I visited the favelas of Salvador, and I can say from first hand experience that the vast majority are black."

Salvador is a) not Brazil's poorest city and b) is Brazil's most afro conscious city. I'm not so sure Salvador is a good mean from whichj to compare. It'd be like me saying that I've gone to the favelas of Florianópolis and seen many more white and caboclo residents than black.

"There is a quato system in place, and I can guarantee you that Lula will not change this so for the next four years we will see if the system is working only after decades, and if it is not working then we need to reform the process."

Well, I guess we can count on more decades of white priveldge in the universities, then.

"But as trends show blacks and hispanics have improved.  The number of blacks in prominent positions has grown."

Sure, but also the black lower class has grown and opportunities for them have dried up.

Colin Powell would probably not consider himself to be or be considered a black man in Brazil.

So really what you guys are doing is copying our system, unawares. You have oppened up opportunities to the "talented tenth" - the majority of whom are light-skinned mulatos - while clamping the lid even tighter on the poor, black masses. And you're citing this as an "advancement"?

Hell, we've been doing that in Brazil for centuries, with the added improvement that our dominat rich whites MARRY those light skinned mulatos as well.

The funny thinga bout this is you guys think that "progress" is an unconscious but rather eery copying of the Brazilian model.

Bottom line: if the idea is to copy the American "success" with affirmative action, we need to very little.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 2:32 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Iverson


Newbie
   
((I notice you like tossing that word "peace" around, but that you also like jumping  down peoples' throat with both feet when you think they disagree with you. Nothing I said here or anywhere else is against affirmative action and when I prove this to you, I don't even get an "Oh. Sorry. Misunderstood." Peace... )).



I like jumping  down peoples' throat with both feet ? Look here dawg , if i have to jump in fight , ima jump head first , not feet , thats how i fight , lol .
oooh , you ain`t against affirmative action ? , but you are against black people haveing it , if it was for white people you would be the  first on line , and you would have no problem with it , but snice its for poor black people , you gotta problem with it and you can`t take that insult , its like ( damn, how that black person have something good , and i am the white person who are supperior not ) i am sorry but thats how you sound  .




(( According to who, you or them? Because if it's according to them, no the majority of the poor in Brazil are not black....................., This is the huge problem with this debate: we haven't even been able to define what we mean by "black". In some moments, people count blacks via the American hypodescendant method. In others, via the "color" method. Thus, depending on who's doing the counting and when, the quantity of Blacks in Brazil ranges from, what, 6 to 70 percent.
)).


damn , dawg , are we gonna debate who are more poor? blacks or whites?  come on  homie , the whole world knows the truth , even brazilians police knows who are black , why not you ? come on dawg thas not good excuse to say you cant make out who is afro-brazilian(black) , Aight.



(( Sure, but also the black lower class has grown and opportunities for them have dried up( in USA).)) .

Here you started closing your eyes from clear like sun  facts , in USA african-americans benefited from quotas/affirmative action , now black Americans are more educated and more rich , are you gonna debate about that facts too? damn.



P.s : homie , if i said any thing , that pissed you off, i apologize , but thats my oppinion  , AIGHT.








Total Posts: 9 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 6:30 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Ze


Junior Member
   
to erjbcdt:

Good that some could profit from the afirmative action, but so far what we see here by media coverage, films & etc.. is a strong segregation. Isn't there separate schools, clinics, tv channels, radio channels, bars, etc...  . I can't see such things and not think loudly "Apartheid".

Although I'm actually pale white, my uncle would be considered black, and so would my cousins. I would not understand if they started saying that I'm white shit, and that my ancestors slaved their ancestors for 500 years. Wouldn't it be considered hipocrisy

Total Posts: 93 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 8:52 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Sick



Newbie
   
Yes, it is true that the definitions of race found in North America and Latin America, specifically Brasil, causes confusion in a discussion like this. However, that does not change the fact that Brasil is, and historically has been, dominated politically and economically by an ethnic minority. A white ethnic minority, or at least people who are "white enough". I admit I do not know a whole lot of Brasilians, but of the ones I do know they are exclusively white by Brasilian standards or Asian, all well educated and all make the same excuse for this continued domination by an ethnic minority. That is, they all make the claim, and they are correct, that "there is no real trend of overt racism in Brasil just that our racism manifests itself in the class structure", or something along those lines. They all claim this without a hint of irony sometimes only minutes after making some derrogatory remark about blacks, which is generally how my conversations with them about race in Brasil come up.

Domination by an ethnic minority is the crucial difference in this discussion. I think it is indisputable that those who are in power tend to want to stay in power. And that is exactly why racism in Brasil manifests itself in the class structure. It was intentional. Just like race, class is a social construct. Brasil had almost an entire generation to watch and learn from the post-slavery experiences of it's neighbor to the North, and they learned well. They knew they would have a much larger percentage of ex-slaves as part of the population than the US had. They knew they could not have a Republic and still maintain power at such a demographic disadvantage. And they knew most of all that an apartheid system which they saw develop in the North was not feasible either. So they put their brains together and came up with the concept of "whitening" later intellectualized by Gilberto Freyre with his "racial democracy" myth. Of course, the idea behind "whitening" was to ultimately water down if not totally eliminate the color black from it's population. A painting, "A Redemption of Ham", I believe it is called by a Brasilian artist (of course I forget the name now) elegantly shows how this process was to work. The effects of this show today when you see census numbers showing only 6% of Brasilians consider themselves to be black. A number like this is why you will hear about North American do-gooders doing work in Brasil to raise black conciousness, which is not the same as afro-centrism or black nationalism or whatever you care to name it. Blacks from North America do not share many of the same experiences as Blacks from the South, however, both share the negation of the color of their skin. Whether the definition of race is hypo- or hyper- doesn't matter, they both can be used against a so-called race of people to the advantage of another so-called race.  

The problem isn't that so many non-whites in Brasil are poor (and I am not implying it is acceptable), the problem is that so many non-whites have such little economic and political power in a country like Brasil. There will be no real progress in Brasil, until non-whites attain economic and political power. Is affirmative action the answer to this? Not completely. It technically is intentional discrimination, however, most supporters of such programs in the North see it as a trade off. Essentially, two steps forward, one step back. Progress by any definition. Now the question for Brasil is, how much power is the overwhelmingly white power structure willing to abdicate? Based on what I have seen posted on here in regards to this topic from Brasilians, the answer appears to be not much.

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I have the best hair on this website.

Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 9:40 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
ELEGANTGENT



Junior Member
   
i thought that the original thread was about lula and political and economic outlooks. it started out great, but now it appears to have turned into another race thread. i see some on this site like to argue. please don't scare me away from moving to brazil. (can't happen anyway, to much there overwhelmingly attracting me like a magnet from deus.).
blessings all

Total Posts: 53 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 11:39 am on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
erjbcdt


Junior Member
   
Macunaima,

you said;

Salvador is a) not Brazil's poorest city and b) is Brazil's most afro conscious city. I'm not so sure Salvador is a good mean from whichj to compare. It'd be like me saying that I've gone to the favelas of Florianópolis and seen many more white and caboclo residents than black.

How can you compare Florinapolis to any city in the Northeast, in terms of econmics and poverty.  Is it hard to find that the poorest cities and poorest region is in the Northeast which just seems to be the place blacks are the majority of population.  Of course Floripa, is going to have a lot of whites in favelas but they are much richer city than the northeast and have less favelas and more economic opportunity than almost anywhere in Brazil.

Now I agree with Elegantgent we need to talk about the political and economic future of Brazil for all Brazilians and stop debating this race issue I just felt like clearing up a few points before I could move on.  

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Viva Brazil

Total Posts: 54 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 12:38 pm on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Estudante de Ingles


Newbie
   
Quotas for who?

Who is black here? Indian? White?



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"nós gatos já nascemos pobres porém já nascemos livres"

Total Posts: 22 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 4:23 pm on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Iverson, don't be a fucking fool. Being against quotas is not being against affirmative action. The only group in the U.S. that I can think of that equates the two is the racist right.

As far as I can see, you haven't read one single word of anyuthing I've written here. If you're "jumping into the fight headfirst", then you're aiming at the wrong fucking target, friend. I suggest you take your rants on over to some white supremacy bbs, perchance to find someone to fight with.

"damn , dawg , are we gonna debate who are more poor? blacks or whites?  come on  homie , the whole world knows the truth , even brazilians police knows who are black , why not you ? come on dawg thas not good excuse to say you cant make out who is afro-brazilian(black) , Aight."

Lookit, ya fucin' moron, if you think it's good politics to give affirmative action vacancies to lightly tanned princezinhas from Ipanema, then that's your problem. The fact of the matter is, the quota law doesn't stipulate who's black and who isn't. there isn't even a review board for this kind of thing. So if I have one black great grandparent and am socially considered to be white (that means the cops don't mess with me if you want to use that particular acid test) then GIVEN THE LAW AS IT'S ACTUALLY WRITTEN, I can claim I'm black and grab a spot.

Cool, huh? This is what you want for affirmative action?!

"Here you started closing your eyes from clear like sun  facts , in USA african-americans benefited from quotas/affirmative action , now black Americans are more educated and more rich , are you gonna debate about that facts too? damn."

SOME black americans are more educated and rich. The majority are worse off as heavy industry jobs ditched the U.S. inner city. those are the facts, my man, and you don't have to take them from me: visit any african american website and you'll get a snootful about the economic and political crisis of black America. Bottom line: the talented tenth did great with affirmative action, especially if they were light skinned. Some few other black people also nudged their way up in class. Bur over all, the wealth disparity between black and white Americans has increased over the last twenty years, not decreased.

Fact. Sorry.

"P.s : homie , if i said any thing , that pissed you off, i apologize , but thats my oppinion  , AIGHT."

Well, maybe you should read what my opinion is first before fucking sticking words in my mouth, AIGHT?

Asshole.



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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:23 pm on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Sick:

"So they put their brains together and came up with the concept of "whitening" later intellectualized by Gilberto Freyre with his "racial democracy" myth."

Y'know, I've looked all through Freyre, and I've never found him calling Brazil a "racial democracy". People say he came up with that, but I haven't found the quote. Do you know where it is?

Your analysis is correct, which is why quotas piss me off. The way they are structured, hey will change NOTHING, but it will look like a huge concesion has been made.

Bottom line: is it our goal to get more blacks and poor people into the university? If it is, then quotas as currently structured will not do that.

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:27 pm on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
erjbcdt:

"How can you compare Florinapolis to any city in the Northeast, in terms of econmics and poverty?"

Precisely. You can't. That's why one has to be careful about taking one city and extrapolating it's experience off to Brazil. I'm sure the vast majority of the poor in Salvador are Black. I'm not so sure that that's true in Floripa or, say, Campo Grande. Having been to favelas in those three cities, I can assure that Floripa's are not "nicer".

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 5:30 pm on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Sick



Newbie
   
Macunaima,

Thanks for pointing that out about Freyre, I should have checked that out myself. I took it for granted he said it since it is attributed to him so often. This is from a March 15, 2000 BBC article that says it all:


"Although Mr Freyre never used the phrase "racial democracy" some of his followers did, and all over the world Brazil came to be seen by some as a paradise of racial harmony.

But in the 1960s Mr Freyre's reputation began to fall apart, especially after he supported the 1964 coup which brought in 21 years of military rule.

Leftwing intellectuals, including a sociologist named Fernando Henrique Cardoso, said Mr Freyre had ignored real racism in Brazil and regarded culture as more important than economics."

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I have the best hair on this website.

Total Posts: 27 | Joined Dec. 2002 | Posted on: 5:53 pm on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
erjbcdt


Junior Member
   
So how is everyone taking Lula as the president?  Does everyone think Lula is doing a good job on social issues? do you think he is running the economy well?

Recently Pallocci said he would raise primary surplus which is the surplus before interest rates payments, to a hefty 4,25% of the GDP.  I think this the highest rate of surplus higher than any of the Carodoso's era.  I think this will help stabalize the economy and bring interest rates down which will stimulate the economy.  THe govt announced today that it will cut 14 billion reais from the budget.

Another case to point out to everyone is the governor of Rodonia, his name is Ivo Cassol and he is asking for federal intervention in his state because Natal Silva, who is the house speak had threatned the governor that he should be placed to a certain high level position and the governor refused to do as he wished.  

We should be proud that a govenor like Ivo Cassol has decided to fight corruption in his state and is demanding that the law take strength in the state.

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Viva Brazil

Total Posts: 54 | Joined Feb. 2003 | Posted on: 9:14 pm on Feb. 10, 2003 | IP
Macunaima


Member
   
Sick,

About Freyre. I dunno...

I was trained to hate the man myself, but when I got into grad school my profs (thankfully) put me down in front of a ton of his books and said "Oh, yeah? Freyre's so bad? Well, let's see you find one white intellectual, anywhere in the world, who was prepared to say the things he did when he did."

So I looked. And you know what? There isn't one. Not one.

Freyre looks bad today not because he's so racist as compared to his contemporaries but because the human social sciences has progressed so much in removing social darwinism from polite discourse. The man was a pioneer, a student of Franz Boas out on the margins of the world, academically and intellectually speaking, fumbling around in the dark. That he was able to do so much was a miracle.

If Freyre made some mistakes or if his work seems stilled based upon what we now know, that's only a measure of how far we've come, not a true reflection of its worth.

Almost singlehandedly, he was responsible for changing the public view of African-Brazilians as marginal to our society to one which places them at the center in a very positive light. When it comes right down to it, Freyre says - and in no uncertain terms - that of the three human components that went into the making of Brazil, the African was by far the most important and the most positive. He destroys the myth of the African's "oversexed nature" (a myth which is still very much alive today and for this observation alone, Freyre is worth his weight in gold), correctly situates "Brazil" as a phenomenon which occurs wherever the two cultural poles represented by the masters and the slaves meet (a concept quite a few people on this forum have trouble grasping) and plots out a detailed phenomonology of race relations in colonial and imperial Brazil. Those people who get hung up on Freyre's "lyrical" views of slavery have obviously not read very carefully his material dealing with violence against slaves, indians and women.

By and large, I think the man believed that Brazil has done the best it could with the sordid and often violent legacy bequeathed to it by the biggest slave economy in human history and in this sense, he can be called an appologist. But it is important to note that he never appologized for slavery or racism - only for the ways in which Brazilians have chosen to deal with these things.

I must have read Casa Grande e Senzala a dozen times, each time with a view to definitively trashing the book and EVERY time I read it, I find another observation that Freyre made that is eminently worth quoting. So I think he's gotten a bad rap, not based so much on what he actually said, but on the way others used his words.

Freyre's one major intelectual sin, IMHO, was his support of authoritarianism in the form of Salazar and the coup here. But let's remember that the guy was getting to be an old fart by then and old farts are strange - especially when they've been consecrated as their country's leading intelectual. His "tropicalismo" certainly rubs the wrong way when it is used to support Portuguese imperialism, but at least he was honest about his belief in Portuguese superiority, unlike many folks today who preach a constant sermon of Brazilian inferiority under the guise of anti-racist critiques.

My prof Gilberto Velho says it best: "There are certain books that one must read if one is to begin to understand a country. One doesn't have to agree with them, but reading them is essential to undertaking informed discourse about that country. In the U.S., I'd say The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is one of these books. In Russia it's War and Peace. And in Brazil it is Casa Grande e Senzala."

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Brazil is the country of the future and always will be!

Total Posts: 147 | Joined Jan. 2003 | Posted on: 4:05 am on Feb. 11, 2003 | IP
 

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