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Brazil's Ethanol Lesson Is How to Manage Our Oil Addiction PDF Print E-mail
Written by David G. Victor   
Tuesday, 18 April 2006 21:29

A Brazilian gas station also selling ethanolThe Brazilian government is declaring victory in its decades-long struggle to become self-sufficient in the supply of oil. The milestone is cause for celebration in a country that has long paid a high price for imported energy.

It will also reverberate here in the United States where policy-makers, too, are trying to wean the nation from costly imports, jittery markets and the foreign spigot.

But we must learn the right lessons. Brazil's success came not from treating oil as an addiction but by producing even more of the stuff and by becoming even more dependent on world markets.

Here in the United States, most attention to Brazil's fuel supply has focused on the country's aggressive program to replace oil with ethanol that is made by fermenting homegrown sugar. American newspapers are filled with stories about Brazil's famous "flex fuel" vehicles that make it easy to switch between ethanol and conventional gasoline.

Guided partly by Brazil's apparent success, American policy-makers are crafting new mandates for ethanol, and flex fuel vehicles are now taking shape. We have the impression that ethanol is king.

In reality, ethanol is a minor player in Brazilian energy supply. It accounts for less than one-tenth of all the country's energy liquids.

The real source of Brazil's self-sufficiency is the country's extraordinary success in producing more oil. After the 1970s oil shocks, when Brazil's fuel import bill soared, the government pushed Petrobras, the state-controlled oil company, to look asunder for new energy sources.

Petrobras delivered, especially at home, where the firm pioneered the technologies that make it possible to extract oil locked in sediments under the seabed in extremely deep water.

In the middle 1970s Brazil struggled to produce just 180,000 barrels of oil per day while importing four times that amount. Today it produces about 2 million and is self-sufficient. Indeed, the current milestone of self-sufficiency arrives with the inauguration of Brazil's newest deep water platform, the P50.

When P50 reaches its full output later this year, that one platform will deliver more liquid to Brazil than the country's entire ethanol program.

Brazil's self-sufficiency offers three lessons for U.S. energy policy:

* First is that ethanol, with current technology, will do little to sever our dependence on imported energy. Today's approach involves growing a crop - sugar in Brazil, corn in the United States - and then fermenting the fruits to yield fuel.

Sugar plants in Brazil's climate are a lot more efficient at converting sunlight to biomass than is corn in the Midwest, but U.S. policy nonetheless favors corn (and imposes tariffs on imported sugar) because the program is really a scheme to deliver heartland votes rather than a commercially viable fuel.

Yet, even with Brazil's favorable climate and sugar's inviting biology, ethanol is already reaching the limit. That's because the land and other resources devoted to ethanol can be put to other uses such as growing food and cash crops.

Indeed, today the Brazilian government is actually reducing the share of ethanol that must be blended into gasoline because sugar growers prefer to make even more money by selling their product as sugar on the world market rather than fermenting it into alcohol.

New technologies - notably "cellulosic biomass" - could breathe fresh life into ethanol and replace still more oil. Cellulosic biomass is intriguing because it cuts costs by allowing the entire plant - the cellulose in the stalks, as well as the prized grain or sugar - to be fermented into fuel.

Advocates for this technology, including President Bush in his State of the Union address, have wrongly confused the sexy promise of this newfangled approach to making ethanol with the practical realities of fuel markets.

Schemes to produce cellulosic biomass, today, work only under special circumstances and nobody has delivered the fuel at the industrial scale that would be required for the technology to become commercially viable.

* Second, we should learn that, for now, the greatest force to loosen the world's oil markets lies with oil itself. We can use oil more efficiently, as would occur with a gasoline tax or wise fuel economy standards. But we can also find ways to produce more of the stuff - as Brazil did with Petrobras.

The problem for U.S. policy-makers is that the richest veins for new production lie mainly outside the United States and beyond our direct control.

Indeed, the Brazilian government made Petrobras more efficient by putting the firm partly beyond its control as well. When the government sold part of the company on international stock exchanges, it accepted Western accounting procedures and other strictures that have given Petrobras the autonomy and accountability to its shareholders that, in turn, helped make it an efficient company.

We have a stake in seeing other countries do the same - from Algeria to Mexico to Iran and even Russia. But we must remember that Brazil did this on its own, in response to internal pressures for reform, with little leverage from foreign governments.

* Third, we should learn from Brazil not to confuse the goal of greater self-sufficiency with the illusion of independence. Even as Brazil has become self-sufficient it has also, ironically, become more dependent on world markets.

That's because the Brazilian government has wisely relaxed price controls so that the prices of fuels within the country are set to the world market. Thus Brazilians see real world prices when they fill up at the pump, and the decisions about which cars to buy and how much to drive reflect real costs and benefits of the fuel they consume.

That is why, even as the country becomes self-sufficient, Brazilians are working ever harder to be more frugal with oil - because the price at the pump is high and rising.

Dependence on oil is a liability that must be managed. But it is not an addiction. Efficiency, sober policies toward modest alternatives such as ethanol, and more production - all tools of the manager, not the addict - are required. Brazil helps show the way, but only if we learn the right lessons.

This article appeared originally in the Houston Chronicle - www.chron.com.
 
Victor is director of the Program on Energy and Sustainable Development at Stanford University and adjunct senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, where he directs research on energy policy. His email for contact: This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .

Comments (123)Add Comment
Ethanol, corn fuel !
written by Guest, April 18, 2006
From what I know, 0 % of corn harvested in the world is hand harvested.
On the other hand, for sugar cane in Brazil, 40 % or more is manually harvested by sugar cane cutters, paid poorly and often under slavery statute.
In Sao Paulo, many farmers are transferring cattles to the North because they are loosing money. the same is happening for Soya farmers.
They have big expansion plan for their ethanol. Sao Paulo Land farms are rented to large sugar agribusinesses for a minimum of 4 years and they are getting good rents, instead of loosing money with Soya and catlles.
This means that the numbers of slaves can only go up and not down.
To get a better image from the world, Brazil will say how this ethanol industry is creating new jobs by the hundreds of thousands and they will call them the "green workers* when in reality they will be the new "green slaves".

Nothing to be proud of, but Brazil will copntinue to hide the sad reality.
Now that soya is no longer the fashion crop, they accuse (with the greens NGO'S) the Cargill, Bunge, ADM of being responsible for the slavery.
Once again, one has to realize that no such company have slaves. All the slaves are hired and (not really) paid by the large brazilian farmers and no one else.
As usual and once more, Brazil must find a foreigner to name as guilty of their own decision.
They never do nothing wrong. when things are bright it is because they are smart, and when things are bad it is because of external factors, including their poverty, while at the same time Brazil is recognized to have the world worst wealth inequality.
This means that their minority elite top which belongs their politicians, are pocketing all the wealth of the country but then they accuse the rich nations for their 80 % of population being poor.
Brazil was always badly managed since the last 100 years. It is not without reason they are nicknamed a boom and bust economy. this time they even failed to have a real boom during Lula mandate. They are at the queue of the economic growth of all developing countries.Numbers are published.
Their only boom was exports, but not because they were smart but only because there was external demand in the world recovery.
during the last 3 years their exports increased by about 60 to 80 % but their overall annual economic growth was an anemic (for developing countries)
3 % or so !
Nothing to be proud of either.
they have no long term plans longer than 3 years.
3 years ago their golden oil was Soya, 2 years ago it was Soya, now it is Ethanol.
IN these 3 years they have not invested in infrastructure in roads and railways, and now they wake up with projects. Projects that no one knows if and when they will be realized.
Lula is so smart that he freed 350 millions Reais to fill all the potholes in Brazil within 6 months.
On the other hand, they double a 600 kms highways near Bahia at a cost of Reais 12 billions that is supposed to take years. Quite a contradiction in the costs. All specialistzs said that the money freed to fill the potholes will not even cover the gravel and the sand costs, and will last only until the next heavy rains.
Is this a serious country, where political corruption is all the time the major pass time of their politicians ?

Really I dont think so.

Brazil is alsmostz suffcient in oil, they produce a lot of ethanol, but curiously their fuel pump prices is higher than the USA or most S.A. countries.
Knowing that agriculture is heavily energy dependants for tractors, combines, fertilizers and transportation they dont realize that with their progblems in roads paved and unpaved, thea are no longer competitive in agriculture. Their farmers are struggling, cannot repay their debts, and even less their already low subsidized rates, that the government is providing more subsidizes. On the other hand they are against the agriculture subsidizes of the rich nations, while they themselves subsidizes with low rates from the BNDES ALL their export industries without willing to open more their doors on industrial goods and financial services.
But at the same time they are forcing their Mercosur Partner, Argentina, for a FTA on auto parts. Strange isnt it !
Finally Brazil wants a always complain for the low price of their agricultral products but on the other hand they are not willing to pay the international market prices of Bolivian natural gas. they are actually paying 50 % below world market prices.
Has Brazil a one way view on trade ?
It is confirmed daily !
they are already highly profitable in trade with all the rich nations but they want more, ever more. The EU can produce most of its needed agriculture, well before Brazil.
But we have to reduce cotton and sugar beets production to please Brazil. We have no desire to eat GM Soy but we are forced to eat GM soy.
Isnt that funny to be forced to buy something we dont want to eat !
Really strange ! Really strange !
yes but
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
In Brazil we have shown the world the gift of ethanol. Use it and don't bitch!
...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
A inveja mata. Brazil is self suficient in energy and no one in the world can face Brazilian productivity in agricultural commodities. Orange juice, meat, soya, poultry,and we still have a big Amazon to expand while others are facing tribal wars in the middle east, and they are losing it as they did lost in Vietnan a generation ago
oops
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
"no one in the world can face Brazilian productivity"

That poster has never heard of
China
...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
Oh christ, here we go again..another misinformed monkey spouting off about how great his nation is. Christ, don’t you question why, with that entire surplus in farm products, fruits and fresh water, still over half your population goes to bed hungry?

I agree that Brazilians were blessed with a wonderful location, fertile lands, lovely beaches and plenty of natural resources, however, it should have gone to the Brits who might actually done something more interesting and def. more productive with it.

You folks are squandering it away, but that’s what we’ve come to expect with Brazilians: Boast all you like about natural resources; they’re there, not because of Brazilian ingenuity though. And I’d bet the farm that they won’t be there by the end of this century due to (the only reliable and renewable natural resource in Brazil) Brazilian stupidity.
Well said...last forum member !
written by Guest, April 19, 2006


these guys believe that exporting $ 35/40 billions in agriculture will make them rich, when in fact it is the agriculture that made them poor, except the 1 % of large landowners having 50 % of all the land....of course !

Amd to the gift from Brazil !
Hopefully you understand that a gift elsewhere in the world means......free !
Is your ethanol....free, for us and for you ?
Noooooo !
Here is even an article that appeared in Reuters on February 6/2006 :
“Even in Brazil’s No. 1 ethanol state Sao Paulo, owners of flex fuel cars are finally doing what was unimaginable just a few months ago, filling their tanks with gasoline instead of ethanol.” Industry sources have advised that if ethanol prices are higher than 70% of gasoline prices, drivers are better off using gasoline due to improved fuel economy.
Ethanol is just the latest new fashion.
Long ago it was rubber. Almost disappeared.
Then it was lumber. Still some but mostly smuggled illegaly.
Then coffee. 4 years ago your coffee farmers starved hard.
Then it was your golden oil soya. In just 2 years the price in Reais dropped by 50 %. your farmers are struggling and loosing money.
At the same time it was cattle and chicken. Now your cattle farmers are receiving the 1996 price, without taking inflation. They starve.
there was also Teak plantations. All investors lost most of their money.
and oohhh yes there also was the Ostrich theme. Failure.
There was sugar. your sugar farmers starved for decades.
Later there was your ethanol. Pfuittt almost disappeared.

And now ethanol is the new trick for the wealth of Brazil.
Hopefully they realize that the more ethanol they produce, the more slaves they will have, because your industry harvest 40 % of all Brazilian sugar cane manually !
Investing in ethanol is your next failure and the one product that will enslave hundreds of thousands of sugar cane cutters that you will call the "green workers" to hide their true function "the green slaves"
Same for your orange juice. How much are paid the hundreds of thousands of workers. Not much.....as usual !

do you realize how many tons of orange, or of soya, or of cattle Brazil must produce to import just 1 Mercedes ?
_smilies/wink.gif))


...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
http://liberdadenet.blogspot.com

I found this topic very interesting, and I have published a reply in my blog. Americans reading this must get more info and get to know that the author is plain wrong in many of the things he says. Most of the blog is in portuguese. The text follows below:

Some americans simply don't get it. Specially the ones inside universities, who live in ivory towers and are unable to see anything happening in the real world. I have read a post in Brazzil.com that simply made me sick. The author is a so-called Stanford doctor, who apparently is unable to inform his readers of the whole truth. In fact, when one reads the pic above, one can imagine that prices in Brazil are international as he states. Some misinformed american reader can stumble upen this pic and agree to him. The problem is, the author apparently doesn't know (or doesn't want his readers to know) that this price is in brazilian currency and unit measures. Let's tell the whole truth. Dollar is costing R$ 2,12 for the exchange rate of today. That means, the true price the author states is almost US$ 1.19. Wow, not bad. The problem is, this price is for the litter of gas. And the price americans pay is for gallons. Well, one gallon is 3.78 litters, and that makes our gallon of gas cost up to US$ 4.49!!! Does that look an international price to you? And that's not 100% pure gas as you have in the United States, that's a mix made by the only oil company permitted to operate in the market, Petrobrás, imposed to drivers in order to make its profit margins bigger. Currently, our gas has about 25% of alcohol in it (which of course causes the engines to malfunction often, as any brazilian driver knows of). Here are some links (in portuguese) with info about the brazilian gas:

http://www.demec.ufmg.br/disciplinas/ema003/liquidos/gasolina/gasolina.htm
http://www.br.com.br/portalbr/calandra.nsf#http://www.br.com.br/portalbr/calandra.nsf/0/41D8569A3E4F8C0403256DAD004CC8DA?OpenDocument

I would like to propose to you, author to come living in Brazil where you have to buy oil from a single company instead of the many you can choose freely in your country. If you are not happy with your country, why don't you simply move to here and stop complaining about something you don't know? I'm sure many americans would certainly thank you. It's certainly easier for you to come here than for me to go to your place so, if you wish to exchange citizenship with me, feel free to contact me ok?
Nice job
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
Nice job Brazil.

Congratulations to the people involved in this project.

Oh boy...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
I see gas stations as diverse as Petrobras (BR), Shell, Atlantic, Ipiranga, BP, Texaco, Agip etc. all around Brasil. And they offer gas, diesel, ethanol, and methane...Many choices from many sources. By the way, biodiesel from castor oil soon to be available. What you wanna do next, invade us for our precious tropical land? Since we are so inept. Good on you! Invade, maim & kill..."Superior anglo" attitude.
...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
That should read "Superior anglo" reality.
Mistake
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
You said

Wow, not bad. The problem is, this price is for the litter of gas. And the price americans pay is for gallons. Well, one gallon is 3.78 litters, and that makes our gallon of gas cost up to US$ 4.49


You have to remember that the average american drives 25 miles one way to work;

50 miles a day= 85km per day

In Brazail the gas cost more but the person does not use the same amount of gas weekly


I drive a honda civic in Brasil to work

I drive only 7 miles round trip everyday

My full tank is good for 30 days

even if a pay $ 4,49 p/gallon times 10 gallons (my tank) i will pay around 50 dollars a mount


In the other hand in America a person needs around 4 to 5 tanks of gas a mounth to get by without a problem,.

5 tanks is around 50 gallons

50 gallons is around 3dollars a gallon times 50 gallons

150 dollars a mounth in gas.

In Brazil and europe you pay more but use less

In America you pay less but use more

In the End of 30 days in America you pay more for gas that you would pay in europe or Brazil

Re: Oh boy...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
But they are just distributors. The only company allowed to explore and import oil is Petrobras. Refining is also almost a monopoly, only some companies that have concessions from the government are allowed to run refineries. There is competition only among distributors and gas stations owners.
Re:Mistake
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
Wow, if you drive a Honda Civic, I suppose you are a wealthy brazilian, because there aren't some many brazilians able to buy a US$ 25,000 car. Honda Civic is considered a luxury sedan here, after all. Congratulations.

Europe is also not a model to follow. See what's happening in Germany and France. High taxes led to high unemployment and now people are getting revolted and violent.

As to the comparison between what an american spends and what a brazilian spends, that's simply nonsense. Quite simply, brazilians don't have the option to live in a quiet suburb and work in the downtown because that would be simply too expensive (not to mention that in cities like São Paulo, doing this takes hours in transportation). Due to this, many denizens have to take buses or trains which are far below the needs (see how they go almost exploding with so many people inside, in every metropolis, including Curitiba) and are way too expensive considering the costs, because driving a car to go work is not an option to many people.

Your comments reveal you are simply an elitist who doesn't care for other people needs and freedom. Good you can drive to go to work, because most brazilians cannot.
true, but...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
I think it might be true that in Brazil you use your car less; however, it not unheard of when someone has go drive to a different town and goes around looking for passengers to split the gas bill because it can break the bank.
...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
Mistake

That is simply a specious, ney; a stupid argument - "it works out cheaper, because we use it less"? Where the hell did you get your education?

So, you buy a flatron TV for 200% more than its retail in the US, but watch it 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. SO, by your calculations it THEN works out cheaper for you than someone in the US, who bought it for next to nothing yet turns it on only once a week? s**t, you sound as stupid as my Brazilian wife.
Splitting costs
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
"split the gas bill because it can break the bank"

No, that's a cultural thing, brazilians tend to split the costs on everything, not only the gas.

Beware if anyone invites you for a churrasco in their home, they might very well expect you to bring the beer or the meat.

Never sleeps a week in someone's home either, even if the person insists vehemently, they will expect you to pay for everything you consume, the electricity, the food, the shelter...

I said "sleep", if you actually live in someone's home you will have to pay the rent and do some shopping for food and stuff.

If someone offers a ride he will expect you to pay for the gas, even if you are going to the same place and no "extra gas" was needed.

I'm brazilian and lived in Brazil all my life, I know how these things work! smilies/smiley.gif
Longhorn is baaaack!!!!
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
"Si tutti cornutti portati lampione; Mamma mia! Que iluminazzione!!!"
Dear Longhorn, You will never walk alone...
...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
Who is Longhorn?
Amazon - Soy??
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
"and we still have a big Amazon to expand while others are facing tribal wars in the middle east?"

Careful partner - by the year 2050 (and by many estimates earlier) the Amazon will be nothing but sterile, parched earth. A section of forest the size of the state of Mass. was slashed and burned to make way for that precious soy . . . .
...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
Amazon - Soy??

Touche...great point
...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
In Sao PAulo you have tons of hondas going around

I never said my car was a brand new car.

I just a good car and even honda has a plant in Brazil.

I drive the car only to my work and is true that we share the ride.

I do share my car going to work with to more people.

Yuo are just a person not well inform about life in Brazil that loves to use pejorative words to make you case.
...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
I'm brazilian and lived in Brazil all my life, I know how these things work! smilies/smiley.gif



I'm also from Brazil and my family has been around for more then 400 years.

Maybe you just have bad and cheap friends !!!!!!!!!

smilies/smiley.gif

...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006

Anyway
Amazing how people love to talk trash about Brazil.

What about going back to the topic ,where Brazil is doing a wonderfull job.

Go Brazzil






...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
quote:


"No, that's a cultural thing, brazilians tend to split the costs on everything, not only the gas"

yep, you're right about that!! One can divide a hostess twinkie 20 times without "juros", or interest, but try taking out a loan for a car or a house!! Or the line of credit in your bank account at 10% per MONTH!
...
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
Europe is also not a model to follow. See what's happening in Germany and France. High taxes led to high unemployment and now people are getting revolted and violent.


Remember

Europe is not just France and Germany

You have more then 20 countries in that category and in europe people pay less for gas when you take in consideration that a person can go around with one tank ever 30 days

In America you need 4 to 5 tanks ever 30 days


il gringo parlando Italiano - LOL!!
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
In case you don't notice Brasil is a country of Italians. Hilarious to seeing a stupid f**king gringo stealing Italiano. Here is more for you . .
-Eh Arrogh'e merda, Leccami le palle. Noi sappiamo che Il tuo cazzo è minuscolo e tua madre si da per niente . . Agora vai se foder gringo succhiatore!!!
Io no sono gringo!
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
Se te chappo sin sabrague te esbrego la fritola!!!
Ciao p**ana
Re: Europe is also no a model to follow.
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
Yes, I know, there are more countries other than Germany and France, but they are the most important, and the guy who drives a used Honda Civic worth at least US$ 10,000 (I assume your Honda Civic is not 10 years old, ok? If so, well it might cost some US$ 6,000 or US$ 7,000 lol) and thinks he is in paradise certainly took the first two countries as an example (as well as Spain and Portugal perhaps, though I don't know how much they are paying for their gas there). Anyway, what matters is that the model in France and Germany is not a model to follow.

About trashing Brazil, what's the problem when a person like me trashes it? I was born here, I can say whatever I want to anyone I want about it ok? We do have free speech around here, right? And really a great job, achieving self-sufficiency by reducing demand... oh ok.

Pay a visit to my blog and learn some more wonders about Brazil: http://liberdadenet.blogspot.com
Go Brazil!
written by Guest, April 19, 2006
Yeah, it does hurt some Americans when a country south of Rio Grande does something good, especially Brazil.

But, the USA is not all bad. There are many intelligent Americans but unfortunately they do not visit this site and expose their opinions here but only the racists, feeble-minded, and Anti-Brazilians ones. What a pity!


...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
quote:


"The problem is, this price is for the litter of gas. And the price americans pay is for gallons. Well, one gallon is 3.78 litters, and that makes our gallon of gas cost up to US$ 4.49!!! Does that look an international price to you? And that's not 100% pure gas as you have in the United States, that's a mix made by the only oil company permitted to operate in the market, Petrobrás, imposed to drivers in order to make its profit margins bigger. Currently, our gas has about 25% of alcohol in it (which of course causes the engines to malfunction often, as any brazilian driver knows of). Here are some links (in portuguese) with info about the brazilian gas: "


You're spot-on there my man. I know a guy, a brazilian that also has a residence in the states. Several years ago he purchased a Chevy Blazer in the states and paid to have it shipped to brazil, and of course paid the import tax charged. Shortly after it arrived it had problems ALL the time, and it was due to the quality of gasoline that is sold here in brazil. It is ONE of the reasons that when one purchases a NEW car that he only receives a warranty for ONE year, sometimes two, and Toyota offers a three year warranty, and that is by far the best car warranty in brazil.

You certainly don't find warranty's anything close to the ones they have in the states, such as with Kia's, 10 years or 100,000 miles.
...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
yep, I try to make sense of it but can't. Brazil is "self-sufficient" in oil. I live in the 2nd largest oil producing state in brazil, and gas here is 2.55 reais per LITRE. If you work it out to see how much one pays per gallon, it comes to almost 10 reais per gallon, which today is $4.70/gallon.

Someone make some sense of that for me cause I sure as hell can't.
...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
" There are many intelligent Americans but unfortunately they do not visit this site and expose their opinions here but only the racists, feeble-minded, and Anti-Brazilians ones."

People like you are priceless! You must have labelled the anti-war protestors during viet-nam "anti-americans" as well huh?

Does one have to be brazilian to complain about the gross injustices that exist here in brazil? Because that is the attitude that MANY brazilians have. I guess the umpteen million first generation foreigners in the states have no right to complain because they weren't born there??

Most brazilians have very thin skin when it comes to hearing the problems that exist from a gringo, as if the problems don't affect the ones that live here.

...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
But, the USA is not all bad. There are many intelligent Americans but unfortunately they do not visit this site and expose their opinions here but only the racists, feeble-minded, and Anti-Brazilians ones. What a pity!

People like this only think there are two countries in the world (well, three given Iraq is now intheir news) the US and Brazil. This poster doesn´t think for a second there may be other nationalities that frequent this site? How sad for you.
America: Love It or Leave It!
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
Hell.... I will leave the s**thole before the ship sinks...to where pastures are greener and friendlier.

An American Citizen
...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
yep, I try to make sense of it but can't. Brazil is "self-sufficient" in oil. I live in the 2nd largest oil producing state in brazil, and gas here is 2.55 reais per LITRE. If you work it out to see how much one pays per gallon, it comes to almost 10 reais per gallon, which today is $4.70/gallon.

Someone make some sense of that for me cause I sure as hell can't.

Let me try and break this down for you real easy: GREED! It's not that oil can't be produced for much less in Brazil it's that R$ 2.55 is what the market will bear - oh and belive me it can bear much more than that - and it will. Look for R$ 3.00 per liter soon. Oh and Bu$cho's saber rattling is having the intended effect - prices are going up all over the world and his oil buddies are getting rich. It's funny - you act as if having "Petrobras" gives you safety from market fluctutations. Petrobras is one of the biggest oil companies in the world and are playing with the big boys - stealing like it too.

That is the very same reason that Ethanol is quickly becoming a joke. Ethanol saves you a few centavos but in the end it may end up equal because of the fuel efficiency factor you get with a petroleum distillate. It amazes me how costly ethanol is in Brazil despite being produced in such vast quantities. The boys who make ethanol are ca$hing in too. The saddest thing is ethanol could probably be offered for much less. In addition the US could grow sugar beets on a scale similar to that of sugar cane in Brazil, maybe more, but big oil is just f**king us over every day. . .
...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
IIn Europe you need around 1 tank por mounth to get by without a problem

In America you need 4 to 5 tanks


Americans commute longer, farther than ever By Ellen Wulfhorst
1 hour, 40 minutes ago



NEW YORK (Reuters) - Dave Givens drives 370 miles to work and back every day and considers his seven-hour commute the best answer to balancing his work with his personal life.


Studies show Americans spend more time than ever commuting and for a growing number, getting to work takes more than an hour. In the most recent Census Bureau study, 2.8 million people have so-called extreme commutes, topping 90 minutes.

Givens, a 46-year-old electrical engineer, has an extreme commute between home in Mariposa, California, and his job in San Jose. He leaves home before dawn and returns after dark.

His trip landed him first place among almost 3,000 entries in the search for America's longest commute, sponsored by automotive services provider Midas Inc. and announced last week. But as harrowing or tedious as Givens' trip may sound, he says it's the way to keep the home and job he loves.

"I have the balance right now," Givens told Reuters. "I could do similar jobs closer, but not with the work reward and job satisfaction I have. And I could live closer, but I wouldn't have the lifestyle that I desire.

"To me, this is not that long a commute," he added. "It's just something I do to go to work."

SUBURB-TO-SUBURB COMMUTING

Longer commutes frequently involve people who live in one suburb and work in another, said Alan Pisarski, author of "Commuting in America."

Such a pattern tends to begin with companies moving out of a city to a suburb, enticing workers to move to less-expensive outer suburbs, he told Reuters. "People see this as an opportunity to go farther away," he said.

Such a move may provide more affordable housing or better schools. Even high fuel costs -- Givens spends about $185 a week on gasoline -- can pay off in a better quality of life, Pisarski said.

Doreen DeJesus rides a bus from her home in Tobyhanna, Pennsylvania, across New Jersey to her job in Manhattan.

The payoff is a house in the country, she said.

"It's a matter of getting away from the hustle and bustle of the city," said DeJesus, 37. "It's not an easy thing, but most days it's really worth it.

"My boss thinks I'm nuts," she added.

Studies show 7.6 percent of U.S. commuters traveled more than an hour to work in 2004, the most recent data available, up from 6 percent in 1990. The average one-way commute grew by 13 percent to 25.5 minutes between 1990 and 2000.

In 1990, only in New York state did more than 10 percent of workers spend more than an hour to get to work, Pisarski said. Now that situation can be found in New Jersey, Maryland, Illinois and California as well, he said.

CONGESTION WORSENS

Added to long commutes is increased congestion, according to the Texas Transportation Institute's 2005 Urban Mobility Report. Commuters typically spent 47 hours a year in traffic jams, up from 40 hours a decade earlier, the study showed.

"That's the time wasted above and beyond just being able to make the trip," said David Schrank, co-author of the report.

But the trips can be worthwhile, said Kay Phillips who works in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, 164 miles from her home in Granite Falls.

"I really love what I do, so I don't mind," she said.

While Givens spends much of his commute listening to the radio, especially traffic reports, Philips, 52, uses her five-hour commute in her own way -- she prays.

"I say a long prayer starting out every morning for everybody, and it gives you quite a bit of time to do that," she said.

...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
The above post show how brazilians have limited options. Considering an average price of US$ 4.49 per gallon and a price of US$ 2.75 per gallon in California, the brazilian using the same car would likely spend not US$ 185, but US$ 302/week. Of course, we now have to take into consideration that brazilian gas contains alcohol and it's not hard to find some more illegal additions to it in gas stations around here, which make the quality even poorer. As such, a car in Brazil with the same engine is supposed to make about 70% of the mileage of a similar american car. That would make the costs for our brazilian commuter jump to up to about US$ 392/week or some US$ 1,570/month. In brazilian reais, that represents a little bit more than R$ 3.300/monthly. Well, that's a very good wage in most of the country, it's supposed that 10-year experienced IT professionals earn less than that in most of the country but São Paulo, where certainly traveling 370 miles, or almost 600 kilometers is certainly not an option. Actually, it would take more time to travel the same miles in virtually any brazilian road, not to mention the added expenditures with vehicle maintenance, due to the high number of holes in most roads. Of course, if he travels in a paid road he won't have any problems with holes, but he'll have to spend more money in some of the most expensive toll fees in the world, which may add a lot. For instance, the toll fee for traveling the 100km (62.5 miles) from Curitiba to the beaches in Paraná is about R$ 10,00 (US$ 4.71), only one way. When you come back, you have to pay another R$ 10,00.
tyou missed something
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
The average person in Brazil does not drive 60 miles to work every day-around 100km


In America the average person drive around 60 miles only for work

In Calfiornia people use car for erverthing.-


no only IT people drive cars in Caliifornia


A preson in Brazil can get by with 1 tank a mounth

even if cost 4,449 like you said using a 10 gallon car

you have 4,449 x 10 gallons = 45 dollars

in America a person needs around 4 to 5 tanks a week

in californa right now you have the gas around 3 dollars- please theck la times for update


so if the gas cost

3 dollars x 40 gallons(1 thank equal 10 gallons times 4 weeks)

you have around
120 dollars

Yuo can consideration only the price of gas and how much people pay to drive
in america you pay much mooe.

Brazil = 45 dollars

America= 120 dollars

you pay 266% more to get by in America.

Re: the embocile who can\'t learn to kee
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
"In America the average person drive around 60 miles only for work "

BULLs**t! COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLs**t!

YOU HAVE NO CLUE, DO YOU??!!!!!!!!
WHAT?!
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
"In America the average person drive around 60 miles only for work"

Most. Fraudulent. Post. Ever.

Hey dumbass- do you even know what a mile is?!
You should probably stop embarassing yourself with stats that you clearly pull out of your ass.
Re: \"tyou\" missed something
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
Is this guy for real?!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

What a moron!!!!

HAHAHAHAHHA!

YOU seemed to have missed everything!

...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
Sorry but by using profanity you are not going you point

Please take the time reading the post bellow and try to inform yourself better about life in America




Think your commute is tough? For extreme commuters, 90 minutes is quick
3.4 million travel at least 90 minutes to get to work

By Debbie Howlett and Paul Overberg | Nov 30, 2004
MOUNT POCONO, Pa. -- The hard-and-fast rule on Martz Trailways Bus No. 101: no talking.

Almost as soon as the bus lurches from the station at 5:05 a.m., the 42 bleary-eyed commuters slouch into their seats and squeeze as many z's as they can on the two-hour ride into New York City. The only sounds are soft snores.

"The sun isn't even up," says Sandra Foster, 42, who's been making the 85-mile trip into Manhattan for nearly a year to her job as an information-technology recruiter. "The last thing anyone wants to do is chat ."

Foster is one of 3.4 million Americans who endure a daily "extreme commute" of 90 minutes or more each way to work. They're among the fastest-growing segment of commuters, according to a Census study, Journey to Work , released in March. Their commute times are more than triple the national average of 25.5 minutes each way.

For many extreme commuters, the distance is so far they actually travel through several weather zones -- from the edge of the Mojave Desert to the Pacific Ocean in Southern California, or from Pennsylvania resort towns in the Poconos to Midtown Manhattan.

Extreme commuting is being driven by strong forces. And this year's surge in gasoline prices hasn't deterred people from driving longer distances to get to work. Workplace shifts make it easier to telecommute, use flextime or work part time. Accelerating prices for close-in housing push people farther from cities to find affordable homes.

And government planners, desperate to keep traffic moving, are spending billions to improve mass transit, including far-flung routes for express buses and commuter rail lines. Whatever the outlook, extreme commuters are pounding out the corridors of what will become the next generation of suburbs.

That keeps planners paying close attention, because extreme commuters and housing developers who lure them to the fringes of sprawling metropolitan areas can quickly swamp local roads and government budgets.

People make these lengthy commutes for many reasons. A few want a rural lifestyle. Some are accommodating a spouse who works closer to home. Some even enjoy the trip. But most do it for a chance to buy into the American dream, says Alan Pisarski, a transportation consultant and author of Commuting in America.

"We now have 60 million people living in non-metro areas. And we have people willing to commute ultra-long distances," he says. "It signals a substantial change coming in the way we commute."

'Driving 'til you qualify'

Pisarski suggests that building more roads or mass transit options, such as trains or buses, would only encourage more long-distance commutes. The real change, he says, will be when companies build away from the metropolitan centers. He cites America Online, which built its corporate offices in Dulles, Va., 25 miles west of Washington, D.C., to attract nearby workers who previously commuted into the city. But AOL is the exception, not the rule.

"You keep thinking that there's got to be some kind of tapering off (in commuting distances)," he says. "But it's hard to see any sign of an end."

To afford a house in a neighborhood with good schools, low crime and Saturday morning youth soccer, extreme commuters keep high-paying jobs in the big cities and buy houses well beyond the traditional metropolitan area.

In California's Antelope Valley, across a mountain range from Los Angeles, commuters call it "driving until you qualify."

John Brooks, an economic analyst for Palmdale, a commuter boomtown 65 miles from the heart of Los Angeles with a population of 116,670, says residents literally get on the freeway and drive away from Los Angeles until they find a house with a mortgage payment that they can afford. Every mile away from the city drops the price of a house thousands of dollars.

For example, the median cost of a house in Los Angeles in September was $405,000, according to the California Association of Realtors. In Palmdale it was $275,000. That difference has turned commuting distances that seemed unimaginable 20 years ago into daily routines.

In the Antelope Valley, best known as home to Edwards Air Force Base, commuters talk about "driving down the hill." It's a clever understatement to describe the daily commute made by more than 20,000 area residents that begins at the edge of the Mojave Desert, wends over the San Gabriel Mountains and ends near the Pacific Ocean. On some winter days, drivers brave snowy mountain passes to jobs in the balmy city.

But extreme commutes are not just about the driving distance. They are forcing federal, state and local officials to address continuing congestion and sprawl in ever-wider areas.

Surveys long ago established that 45 minutes is the threshold most commuters were willing to drive one way to work. But the number of Americans making commutes longer than that has grown steadily to more than 19 million, according to the Census. That's one in six commuters, up from one in eight in 1990.

In the Antelope Valley, planners are moving toward mass transit rather than building more freeways to alleviate congestion. Palmdale has lobbied hard to get a station on California's planned $35 billion high-speed train line, which will run from San Francisco to San Diego at speeds of up to 200 mph.

The route, going through Palmdale, is expected to be approved at state planning meetings next month. Voters throughout California would still need to approve a $20 billion bond measure to finance the rail line. According to Brooks, the economic analyst, it likely would take 10 years to build.

But, the train would cut in half the 90-minute commute by car to the city. And Brooks says the effect for commuters would be equivalent to building an eight-lane freeway.

Not all extreme commuters are driving from the distant edges to the middle of big cities. A few are driving from one rural location to another, such as commuters in places like Rifle, Colo.; Salyersville, Ky.; and Indian Wells, Ariz. Most of those commutes of 90-plus minutes cover 100 miles or more on open road, rather than shorter trips on congested freeways.
Are you kidding me?
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
Thank you for again de-railing your own argument.

"Think your commute is tough? For EXTREME commuters, 90 minutes is quick
3.4 million travel at least 90 minutes to get to work"

Do you know what the word EXTREME means? I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is "no" since you can barely type in English.

Also do you rmember, just a few posts up, when you said,

"In America the average person drive around 60 miles only for work"

But in the articel you just posted to support that it says,

"the national average of 25.5 minutes each way"

Now listen closely: not only is there a difference between MILES and MINUTES, with the article you just posted it completely contradicts your previous argumetn and exposes you as a liar, and an unworthy debater. Your credibility is so ruined now (by yourself) that I have no choice but to ignore you as you don't deserve anyone's attention.
...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
Well, in Brazil, only in São Paulo city there are more than 3 million people who take 90 minutes or longer commutes. And they don't go to work in comfortable SUVs or Honda Civics. They use to wake 4am to get to work 8am, and get crowded out buses and trains, much above their capacity, to make some R$ 1.000,00 (US$ 470) a month. They are crowded out like this train in Rio:
http://oglobo.globo.com/foto_g...rem01.jpg

And yet there comes a patriotic moron (patriotário) proud of driving a crappy Honda Civic in the "rich" São Paulo city stating that here we are paying less than americans because we drive less! C'mon man, are you nuts!? Ah, just beware in the lights, as there are many unhappy citizens looking forward to kidnapping you to take a tour through ATMs to get your money and take your luxury sedan from you aftwards ok?
...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
Well, at least one thing is for certain. In the U.S. people don't have to fear having their car ripped apart from potholes that are literally bigger than their car.

And not only that, but we don't have to fear being kidnapped just because you're driving a "luxury" car or wearing a rolex. In Sao Paulo, they sell more bullet-proof glass than in ANY other city in the WORLD!

The above poster is truly lost, he's even admitted that he's never stepped foot in the states by omission.

People like this are truly lost, and they should be trying to make comparisons with corrupt countries in Africa, as they are much closer in comparisons than the U.S.

...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
"Ah, just beware in the lights, as there are many unhappy citizens looking forward to kidnapping you to take a tour through ATMs to get your money and take your luxury sedan from you aftwards ok?"


LOL...I was posting to the same effect at the same time you were. At least we know that we have some people here that are very aware of the REALITY that exists.
...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
In America the average person drive around 60 miles only for work"

But in the articel you just posted to support that it says,

"the national average of 25.5 minutes each way"



Let me teach some math

If you drive around 25 minutes in the freeway and you drive around 70 milesper hours you have :

if you drive 70 p/h

you will drive 35 miles in half hour

you probable will drive 30 miles in 25 minutes one way


YOU WILL DRIVE 60 MILES ROUND TRIP



LOLLLLLLLLL

...
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
bozo, you continue to show your ignorance. Firstly, in nearly all cities, by far the most time spent in ones car is in "traffic", and you're certainly not driving 70 mph!! More like "stop and go" traffic that never gets above 50 mph.
HAHAHA!
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
No kidding!

"Let me teach some math

If you drive around 25 minutes in the freeway and you drive around 70 milesper hours you have :

if you drive 70 p/h

you will drive 35 miles in half hour

you probable will drive 30 miles in 25 minutes one way"

So in the U.S. (which you have never been to you admit) the average person gets in their car every morning and floors it to 70 mph all the way to work?!
HAHAHAHA!
This cat is ri-f**king-diculous!
Hey guys, go easy on him
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
The poster who keeps fabricating all of the stastics about the U.S. is obviously not right in the head. He clearly has some sort of mental handicap, so I think you all should just be kind to him. At best he's green with envy about the USA. Either way, I think he should be dealt with gently as he clearly has some self-esteem and mental issues he already has to worry about.

Personally, I'm fromBrazil, but I'v e been to the states before and have been pretty nonplussed by some of the"facts" this man has been using. They're obvious lies. Let me just make it clear that he does not represent (thankfully) a well-informed Brazilian so please don't get the wrong impression of all of us!
Hey guys, go easy on him
written by Guest, April 20, 2006
The poster who keeps fabricating all of the stastics about the U.S. is obviously not right in the head. He clearly has some sort of mental handicap, so I think you all should just be kind to him. At best he's green with envy about the USA. Either way, I think he should be dealt with gently as he clearly has some self-esteem and mental issues he already has to worry about.

Personally, I'm fromBrazil, but I'v e been to the states before and have been pretty nonplussed by some of the"facts" this man has been using. They