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We Need Jails. Education Alone Won't Put Brazil Together Again. PDF Print E-mail
Written by Cristovam Buarque   
Thursday, 01 June 2006 17:40

Brazilian jailSome problems are not solved in isolation. One example of this is the violence, inequality, and corruption triangle in Brazil. These elements feed off each other, demanding a joint solution.

As long as national politics are contaminated by corruption, the bad example set by the politicians will serve as an incentive to criminality. When he sees that a politician has hidden money in his undershorts, an unemployed young man will ask himself if he too could not obtain money illicitly. Above all when he perceives that the money was diverted from social programs that could have met his needs.

Building a peaceful society will demand a revolution that confronts the three problems. Education is the principal vector to combat them simultaneously.

But it is an illusion to believe that schooling alone will solve the problems. Education reduces inequality, violence and corruption, but this takes years.

At the present time, the violence and corruption must be quelled. The use of a fountain pen instead of a revolver does not diminish the gravity of the crime, and it increases the amount stolen.

Jail for the criminals and corrupt of today, and school today to prevent the crimes and corruption of tomorrow.

There is a known solution to the educational problem: the federal government - and not simply the states and the municipalities - must make it a concern. It is necessary to define minimum standards for the public schools; to establish full-day sessions in all of them; to guarantee well-educated, well-paid and dedicated teachers and well-constructed, well-equipped buildings.

This takes time to accomplish and demands federal resources. But it will do little in the fight against the criminality in the streets today.

To confront the current violence, we must first understand that this is no longer a crisis; it is a tragedy of enormous proportions. Second, that it is a war promoted by an organized, heavily armed, parallel power. Third, that the problem is national and not local and must be the responsibility of all elected officials.

The federal government needs to confront the matter and appoint someone to be responsible for it. The Ministry of Justice has already shown that it is incapable of confronting the crime.

With so many duties of its own, it is leaving the combat against violence to the states, just as the Ministry of Education is leaving K-12 education to the municipalities. Besides a Ministry of Justice responsible for guaranteeing Brazilians their rights, Brazil needs a ministry that would guarantee its citizens their security.

Ten of the current ministries should be closed and one created that is dedicated exclusively to security, as was proposed by the team elaborating President Lula's program. The team heard him affirm that he would not make this a pet project.

It is fundamental to declare war upon the crime that has acquired the characteristics of terrorism. In that war, it will be necessary to establish national coordination of state policies and police, to define standards of preparation, to eliminate the brutal salary inequalities existing among police forces of different states and between the troops and their commanders.

To permit the deployment of the police troops among states; to remove all the penitentiary directors until triage separates the corrupt from those with integrity; to replace the large prisons with small ones; and to separate the prisoners by type of crime and criminality.

To assure more resources for security and prohibit the government from making contingency use of these funds; to set up an efficient anti-crime intelligence system; to incorporate a million young people into six months of civilian-military service.

Above all, it is necessary to make the judiciary system more efficient and moral and incorporate it into the war against violence.

This is possible and it formed part of the program of the government elected in 2002. But President Lula refused to assume his responsibility.

Perhaps this may be the greatest of the problems in winning the war against violence: to have a president who takes the problem as his or her own and confronts the cursed triangle of violence, corruption and inequality.

Jail to combat the violence and corruption of today. And school to guarantee equal opportunities and to reduce the inequality.

Cristovam Buarque has a Ph.D. in economics. He is the candidate of the PDT to the presidency of Brazil in the October 2006 elections. Buarque is also a senator for the Federal District and was Governor of the Federal District (1995-98) and Minister of Education (2003-04). You can visit his homepage - www.cristovam.com.br - and write to him at This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .

Translated from the Portuguese by Linda Jerome - This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .

Comments (77)Add Comment
RE: We Need Jails...
written by Guest, June 01, 2006
Mr. Buarque:

Let’s face it. We need death penalty for hard criminals and gang leaders. We need to punish kidnappers with life in prison. We need to toughen our penal system.

But above all, we need to start treating corrupted politicians as common criminals and punish them severely.

And we need to educate our people better and we need to start acting fast, really fast. Enough talking!.
Jail for all
written by Guest, June 01, 2006
I agree what does society perceive when white collar crime goes unpunished. The middle class is disappearing in Brazil. When there are only the very rich and the very poor what choice do people have when they are underpaid despite education, despite living moralistic lives.
Maslow says hierarchical needs of shelter and foood must be achieved before higher needs can be considered. Are jails the shelter of the future for a rising criminal tide?
Mr. Buarque got an insight
written by Guest, June 01, 2006
Mr. Buarque, why don't you follow the example of a previous article by yourself and privatize the schools like they did in Ireland, in order to have education professionaly, and not politically handled, having the government only to provide funds for poor students, instead of trying this public school system that didn't work even in the U.S.? Are you suggesting that we could have a quality public school system that gives good quality of teaching to everyone and not for only the elite, like happens to good public schools both in Brazil and the U.S.?

You say that education will solve criminality. But you are the one supposed to know better than myself, having been a senator, that there are proportionally more criminals among your educated and rich peers in the Congress than in uneducated and poor neighborhoods. How do you explain that? We have lots of prostitutes and drug dealers among upper middle class citizens in Brazil, who are not poor nor uneducated. We have had some crimes commited by justice officials, like a murdering in Ceara and another guy who killed his wife. We have had a case of a director of a big newspaper who killed his girlfriend. Lots of cases, I could cite some other names too, like Rafael Ilha, Suzane von Richthoffen among others. All of them with good life standards and well educated. We have even a minister who was a bank robber. And those are just the famous cases.



I agree to the first poster, about death penalty, because of a simple economic reason: what's the point in keeping dangerous people, like kidnappers, rapists and mass murderers in jail for life, spending public money to keep those monsters alive and running the risk of having them released back to society?

Finally, give a break to Cristovam Buarque. He is PhD by Sorbonne, the same school that formed many of the geniuses who ruined France, and had his graduation in Brazil. That certainly does not fully determines how someone is supposed to think, but it's hard to overcome.

Glad you will not win these elections, Mr. B.
...
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
well, don't get me wrong here, I may be a little off-base on this statement...but I don't think so, but brazil may want to consider NOT GIVING CONVICTED f**kING FELONS WEEK PASSES AT HOME DURING CHRISTMAS AND OTHER HOLIDAYS AND "TRUSTING" THEY RETURN ON THEIR GOOD HONOR!!!!


What a f**king joke.
Since you mentioned France...
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
The core cause of the relative downfall of France is an elite who disdain productive work and look down on anyone who can perform it as a mere "technician". They find demeaning and lowly even the understanding of how things can be accomplished in a practical sense... and trust me, I know about this from first-hand experience.

I'm not sure that Mr. Buarque qualifies on this count. He is at least trying to find practical solutions, although they could go farther as some of the posts here have indicated.
...
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
f**king hell you people have got it coming.... I can't believe you have a PHD in economics. I am an undergraduate in development economics and I can tell you that investment in rural areas will definitely improve crime levels and prevent the necessity of people fleeing drought and stravation into urban shanty towns and living by criminal means. Your prisons have already been singled out on many occasions by Amnesty international and other international human rights organisations for brutal, corrupt and torturous practices. But of course if we are talking about prisons you must mean young black and brown men so that doesn't matter then does it? Use a large portion of the unfathomable amounts of money available in Brazil and that are spent on "fighting crime" to invest in export orientated labour intensive
industries in the rural areas and you will definitely be putting your precious people at a lot less risk of attack through desperation. Practical solutions?! Are you drunk? The mass imprisonment of young men of colour at their prime age of fertility seems like a population control measure to me. Anyone who has studied economics would realise that increased investment in employment oppotunities. Proper ones not sentences to a dead end life of misery but employment with the real likelihood of progression will definitely decrease the benefits of criminal activity. The only education available isn't just standard mainstream primary and secondary. How about increased on the job training and apprenticeships. Here in England the government has an Investors in People award that it awards to companies and institutions who make a commitment to expanding their work forces capabilities and rewards them for it. I didn't hear him mention providing educational oppotunities for the people in prisons themselves so that they can come out and actually have a chance to live legally. How many of the boys in prisons have actually got any job skills . His solution is absolutely evil not to mention illogical and will definitely not win him the elections. He has a lot more years of imprisoning people before the rich and white stop being totally outnumbered.
Building \"prisons\".....
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
and sports arenas are two of the leading growth industries here in the US.

"Build 'em & we'll fill 'em...lol"
Above poster....
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
Please get a grip! I'm British (working in SP) and I can tell you we have one of the highest prison populations in Europe--about eighty-odd thousand, at the moment; it's growing, and we plan to build more facilities to house more. Your comment that the 'mass imprisonment of young men of colour at their prime age of fertility seems like a population control measure to me' is totally off-base, and bound to offend some. The reason that these people end up in prision has nothing to do with population control. but everything to do with the fact that they are criminals, often violent ones to boot.As for educating them, it's a nice idea but what would you suggest teaching them? In Brazil, most cannot read or write, and would find no succour in learning. Who wants an illiterate on their workforce, unless it's to 'push broom' all day? In Britain, despite proper educational/economic incentives, most criminals released from prison return to some form of crime, just as a dog returns to its vomit. Also, in case you didn't know it, the Investors in People Award, which you extol so freely, has little or nothing to do with criminals, but was originally created by the government as a measure to reduce unemployment statistics-- it was not designed to asist the rehabilitation of wrong-doers, and only marginally constructed, in fact, to assist the urban poor. Why? Firstly, because no right-minded company would want to employ an ex-con, and no right-minded person would want to work with them.Secondly, the urban poor are often, even in Britain, a badly educated, scurrilous lot.So, it's hard for any company to find anything useful for them to do. Now ask yourself: Why are they are so badly educated, when they have access to a firt-world education? Answer: they don't want to learn. So, they seal their own fate. And, just so you know we all noticed, your last sentence gives your real agenda away completely.
...
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
"The reason that these people end up in prison has nothing to do with population control. but everything to do with the fact that they are criminals, often violent ones to boot."

Congratulations - I too nearly passed an entire coffee through my nose reading that racist "blame whitey" dribble. This is the type of idiocy that only stagnates serious factual and pragmatic debate and keeps law-abiding citizens hostage longer than necessary. The whole, "it’s not the thug’s fault, but those horrible AWFUL honest middle class people working so hard that are too blame" bulls**t really sticks in my craw.

It’s time to loose the "kid gloves" when dealing with these rabid jackals in Brazil. Building more prisons is one way, but how about reforming the judiciary, and cleaning house with the civil police, too. I’d also propose that the 2 separate prison system be abolished and that all criminals - whether you are university educated or not, have to share in the same stench when doing time. Bank managers and administrators would think twice before stealing from the kitty, if they thought that they would be caught, and worse, have to do time with Joao Favela, his s**t stained bermudas, tube of glue, and interest in fresh banker bunda….
HUmmmmmmm
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
wE MUST BUILD HUGE PRISON FACTORIES. IN GREAT NUMBER AND THEN PUT ANY PERSON THAT BROKE THE LAW TO WORK ALMOST AS SLAVIER. LIKE IN THE USA AND CHINA. SO WE CAN IMPROVE OUR ECONOMY.
BRAZIL ALSO COULD SEND CRIMINALS TO DIE IN AFGANISTAN AND IRAQ LIKE DOES USA AND ENGLAND.
FIRST WORLD THEY HAVE HUMAN RIGHTS. LET´S COPIE THEM!
No no no no we must export them
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
Why not send this criminals to the first world. USA is using them.
Read the news from this bandit. Perhaps he growht thinking that was Santo the mask silver, Santo el mascarado del plata.

Army Sgt. Santos A. Cardona was convicted Thursday of dereliction of duty and aggravated assault for allowing his Belgian shepherd to bark within inches of a prisoner's face. Sentencing deliberations were scheduled to resume Friday.

Cardona became the 11th soldier convicted of crimes stemming from the abuse of inmates at the prison in late 2003 and early 2004. He faces a maximum penalty of 3 1/2 years in prison, a dishonorable discharge and forfeiture of all pay and allowances.

US has enough criminals
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
The US has more than it's share of criminals, more recently 20 Million Illegal Aliens, Crooked CEO'S, and executives, Crooked Politicians--can someone say Randy "Duke" Cunningham--Convict! Tom Delay future Convict! John Jefferson future Convict! The list goes on and on! Sheesh!

Poor middle class working folks are the only ones holding these countries together!

Stupid looking George W Bush underneath the write comment section, future Convict!
...
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
Stupid looking Condi Rice underneath the write comment section future Convict!
...
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
George Bush looks like a wooden Howdy Doody dummy on that picture...somebody blow him some words...
Cristvam Buaruqe?
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
Cristovam buarque arent you supposed to be like dead man? Though you that guy that discovered brazil about 500 years ago?

What, you found the potion of immortiality and didn't tell anyone about it? Or are you just his relatives? Is it true you had sex with your ship crew?
WE WANT...
written by Guest, June 02, 2006

... MORE JAILS FOR CORRUPT POLITICIANS SUCH AS CRISTOVAM BUARQUE!!!
Yes....Jail for All !
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
That is the Braziian problem !
No corrupted official ever go to jail. Therefore what is their risk ? None...by definition ! Thus, why should they stop ? Smile !
Even your justice is corrupted to the root, by not sending guilty corrupted people in jail !

Your politicians and lawmakers have even made laws that protect them ! Your senators are not even judged by the justice but by their peers at the Senate/Congress and worse : by secret votes !!!!!!
This explains easily why most your corrupted and guilty politicians have been absolved by the other corrupted politicians.

Concerning Buarque himself, he definetely belongs to the priviledged.... guilty !
Although he denouces regularly the system, he is part of it !
The Brazilian society has been brainwashed for decades by their politicians. They have been told that the country problems are due to external factors such as the rich nations. When in fact your problems have been the results of the decision taken by your politicians.
They are robbing, raping and stealing your society..... every single day...for the last decades.

But to their defense, YOU elected them and allow them to do so ! You simply do nothing against them !
Just nothing ! And worse : you continue to re-elect them ! Therefore here too : why should they change something ?
Afterall you defend them when you give your vote of confidence to... Them !
Who thus.....is also responsible ???????
usa superpower
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
perhaps we could help with our us marines .or our airbourne divisions.
in jail
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
Throw a*****es who break the law in jail for a long time. Put money into lower level education not just free university for the elite. pay the cops more so you can attract people who actually have a brain and are less corrupt and pay dickheads that do nothing in the government less. In fact put a bullet in the brain of every beauracrat when they retire, that way they won't think about retiring after 10 years to collect a full pention, which just makes them a leach on the state. And o yea make it easy to start a business and stop taxing the producers too much.
...
written by Guest, June 02, 2006
jails will never help brazil. I'm trying to get in touch with the police right now about a situation, it's 1:30 am here, I got a recording saying to call back during business hours....LOL!!! I guess if you have a problem when most assaults and robberies really happen.....at night, you're simply f**ked!

This f**king country is truly something to behold...LOL!

I have NEVER....NEVER, seen people in MASS that absolutely, positively, have NO RESPECT FOR ANYTHING LIKE I HAVE HERE, IN BRAZIL!
In Brazil you are on your own baby
written by Guest, June 03, 2006
Make a gang and do fix things on your own. Do not wait for the police or justice. This way was, this way has been and this way will be. If you are not happy come back to the place you come from.
...
written by Guest, June 03, 2006
Yes brazil is a big caotic mess....I like it, but don't hold out much in the hopes for things really changing...
Prisons are Big Business
written by Guest, June 03, 2006
In the US prisons and criminal justice is a big booming business. Yes young black men will always be the most expendable portion of society so they can and will continue to be used as prison fodder.

I can't speak for the UK or any other nation but in the US it is profitable to lock em up and throw away the kid and it is true that you can kill 2 birds with one stone. Incarcerate young blk men between 18-49 does cut down the fertility rate no matter how much people will try to deny that basic reality.

Yes some people are criminal minded but there is still a racist tendency to lock up the lowest elements of society and let the big dogs walk free. We can deny racism but it is a huge element in who is locked up and who gets to walk free.

And this is coming from a correctional officer with 25+ years of experience in some of California's finest pens.
...
written by Guest, June 03, 2006
GAWD, more racist drivel. Well, you caught us. It is the big WHITE conspiracy that is locking up all these well-intentioned and future young black leaders. You are correct; we are so full of hate that we’ve created an underground code for police and the judicial system when it comes to matters of WHO should go to the pokey. That’s right, it is a form of birth control – like it is really working. It has, of course, NOTHING to do with the fact that, oh let’s say, THOSE THAT ARE INCARERATED DESERVE TO f**kING BE THERE!

agree
written by Guest, June 03, 2006
I agree with both of the above posts, black men have historically gotten the shaft in the US as a group, but also if you look at what is happening now a great percentage of blacks do commit violent crime so the system keeps on feeding itself. Black people in the US need to admit that there is a much larger percentage of black males who are extremely anti social and unable to function in mainstream society, I think there is a lot of denial of this instead of trying to fix it. But in Brazil, it's hard to say whether there is a bias against black and brown people or just poor people since they tend to be the same.
Polícia foi autora de chacina no Capão R
written by Guest, June 03, 2006
Cinco pessoas que não tinham nada a ver com o PCC foram assassinadas à queima-roupa por homens que se identificaram como "polícia!" Dafne Melo e
Tatiana Merlino
da Redação

Apesar do frio, Maurício Assis de Menezes veste apenas calça jeans e camisa azul. São 2 horas da madrugada de terça-feira, dia 16, no centro do Capão Redondo, Zona Sul de São Paulo. Acompanhado de seis colegas, o jovem de 28 anos abre o portão do bar de sua família - onde trabalha - para desenroscar as lâmpadas que iluminam a lanchonete, também familiar, que fica bem em frente ao bar.
Maurício mal tem tempo de chegar à barraca de lanches quando ouve: "Mãos na cabeça. Polícia!" Em seguida, começam os tiros. Sem expressar reação, enfileirados e de costas, todos são metralhados por homens vestidos de roupas escuras e gorro.
Horas antes, ainda na tarde de segunda-feira, mesmo após ouvir as notícias da televisão sobre os ataques da organização criminosa Primeiro Comando da Capital (PCC) em toda a cidade, a família Assis de Menezes não tem medo. Mantém o seu comércio aberto. Acreditam que como o alvo da polícia são os criminosos do PCC, não terão problemas. "A gente confiava na polícia", diz o pai de Maurício, com uma foto da família nas mãos.
Por volta das 23 horas, o que chama a atenção dos donos e freqüentadores do bar é um carro Fiat Palio preto com vidros fumé, que passa levando homens com capuzes. O carro passa vagarosamente em frente ao estabelecimento, junto com três carros da Polícia Civil, dois deles da marca Blazer. Marcos*, um dos irmãos de Maurício que também trabalha no bar da família, ao ver o carro suspeito, vira-se para os colegas e brinca: "Tá vendo esse carro preto aí atrás? É só para matar".
Portas fechadas
Assustados, os irmãos resolvem fechar o bar, mas os clientes, com medo, não tem coragem de ir embora e resolvem ficar mais tempo dentro do estabelecimento, já com as portas fechadas. Cerca de três horas depois, os clientes resolvem voltar para casa, e Maurício lembra que deixou as luzes da barraca acesa. Junto com ele, está Edson, funcionário da lanchonete, que trabalha há cinco anos para a família. Antes de ser assassinado, o jovem de 22 anos coloca em cima do balcão da barraca dois sanduíches que levaria para casa.
De dentro do bar, Marcos ouve "Mãos na cabeça. Polícia!". Olha pela janela e vê quatro homens. Desce correndo para dar assistência ao irmão e explicar que “são todos trabalhadores”, mas é tarde demais. Os tiros já haviam começado. “Acho que foram mais de 30”. Imediatamente, vai novamente à janela. Os agressores não estão mais lá.
Pedidos de ajuda
“Desci para procurar meu irmão. Todos meus amigos me pedindo ajuda: 'me ajuda, tá doendo demais'. O Edson dizia: 'tá doendo demais, não me deixa morrer'. Todo mundo gemendo. O Renato tentava levantar e pedia ajuda. Meu desespero era procurar meu irmão”, conta Marcos, que encontrou Maurício já morto atrás da barraca.
Marcos conta que em menos de dois minutos, 12 viaturas do 37º Batalhão da Polícia Militar chegaram no local. “Chegaram socorrendo e começaram a recolher as cápsulas. Foi tudo muito rápido”. De acordo com a lei, quando há vítimas fatais, a polícia não pode alterar a cena do crime, mas deve aguardar a chegada da polícia científica para dar início à perícia. O procedimento, entretanto, não foi observado neste caso. De acordo com Marcos, também não foi colhido nenhum depoimento no local.
Em conversa com o irmão de Maurício, os policiais militares disseram que o ataque poderia ter sido feito por criminosos do PCC. No entanto, as testemunhas duvidam. “Se eles eram do PCC, como o Palio preto ia estar logo atrás dos carros da Polícia Civil? A não ser que eles fossem loucos”, ironiza. Ainda de acordo com testemunhas, durante a chacina, o Palio preto estava estacionado próximo ao local do crime, e os carros da Polícia Civil um pouco mais à frente, mas na mesma rua.
Na manhã seguinte, policiais do Departamento de Homicídios e Proteção à Pessoa (DHPP) foram ao local do crime. Dos sete moradores que foram atacados, cinco morreram e dois sobreviveram. Questionados pela reportagem do Brasil de Fato, a assessoria de imprensa da Secretaria de Segurança Pública afirmou que a chacina ocorrida no Capão Redondo não entrou para as estatísticas ligadas às ações do PCC ou da polícia. Foi considerada como um crime comum na cidade de São Paulo. A secretaria disse informou que um inquérito foi aberto no DHPP, mas que, para resguardar as investigações, não se pode informar qual o seu andamento. A Secretaria ainda afirmou que em casos como este, testemunhas devem fazer a denúncia na Ouvidoria da Polícia.



Mortes sem explicações
Reportagem da Folha de S. Paulo, do dia 21, mostrou que os casos de mortes à bala diretamente relacionados com a onda de violência desencadeada pelo PCC na semana passada em todo o Estado foi de 138 mortes.
Somando-se o número médio de mortes que a capital e Grande São Paulo apresentam em 5 dias, 65 mortes, “sobrariam” 69 mortes a serem esclarecidas pelo governo. O fato, entretanto, entra em contradição com declarações feitas pelo comandante-geral da Polícia Militar de São Paulo, Elizeu Eclair Teixeira de Borges.
Segundo ele, a criminalidade rotineira, sem ligação com o PCC, havia caído cerca de 50% desde que começou a onda de atentados. Borges ainda afirmou que nenhum dos mortos em confronto com a polícia desde o início dos ataques do PCC era inocente.
De acordo com familiares, amigos e testemunhas, nenhuma das vítimas da chacina do Capão Redondo tinha relações com o PCC, nem passagem pela polícia. Os familiares de Maurício e testemunhas não souberam informar o nome completo das outras vítimas fatais. Três delas foram identificadas pelo primeiro nome e apelidos e outra foi identificada apenas pelo trabalho que fazia na região.
Os mortos
Maurício Assis de Menezes, caçula de quatro irmãos, era um rapaz pacato, quieto, de poucas palavras. Trabalhava no bar da família desde os 14 anos. Saía pouco e gostava de alugar filmes para assistir em casa. A última vez que saiu para passear, foi a um churrasco na casa da mãe da namorada, no domingo, Dia das Mães. A namorada, grávida de dois meses, perdeu o bebê no dia seguinte em que Maurício foi assassinado. A morte do rapaz chocou amigos e a vizinhança, “porque ele era o cara mais tranqüilo da região”, dizem testemunhas.
Edson, conhecido pelos amigos como “Jaca”, tinha 22 anos, era casado e tinha dois filhos. Trabalhava na lanchonete da família Menezes há cinco anos. Fanático por futebol, não perdia um jogo do seu time São Paulo Futebol Clube. Brincalhão, adorava dar apelido para todo mundo que passava pela barraca de lanches.
Renato, conhecido como “Brigadeiro”, tinha cerca de 35 anos. Trabalhava com artesanato e adorava ir à praia. Todos os anos, vendia flores durante o Dia das Mães. Tinha dois filhos. Um menino de 8 e uma garota de 19. Fã de teatro, sempre levava o filho a espetáculos gratuitos no centro da cidade.
Davi era pouco conhecido das testemunhas, que apenas sabem que o rapaz trabalhava como motoboy. As testemunhas não sabem o nome da quinta vítima. De acordo com elas, era um senhor de idade avançada que trabalhava como catador de material reciclável no bairro do Capão Redondo
...
written by Guest, June 04, 2006
So some innocent people were killed by the police, we already knew that, that is what happends when you pay police R$500 you can only hire criminals and murderers. Pay to hire good police and start respecting the rule of law. Until then I can't cry for these five, because there will be so many more in the future I have to save my tears for.
But what a s**t Lula did....
written by Guest, June 04, 2006
when Jean Charles died during the London bombing.

What the London police was just inacceptable during a bombing but he finds acceptable that more than 1 innocent is killed during the SP chaos.

Typically....Lula. What an a*****e !
rem:prisons are big business
written by Guest, June 04, 2006
In the USA if you are arrested and don't have money to defend yourself, you may rot in jail. A good example of this is Gernomi Prat who the FBI had pictures of this man at a BP rally on the night of the murder of a school teacher in CA. in a different town. This man stayed in jail for twenty seven years. This man was also a decorated Viet Nam war hero. Some states have stop the execution of people on death row because with the development of DNA , many of these people have been exonerated of the crime they were charged with. Remember, the "Nite Owel Restaurant in LA Cond." that was based on a true story. Finally, The USA justice system is a big myth to a certain degree. Many innocent people are in jail and guilty people are walking the streets. The poor and non-whites are the victims of the USA justice system. Now, stop the BS that could happen to you or somebody in your family. How would you feel if you spent ten years in jail for the rape and murder of a child ten years old and the DNA tell you it was the child uncle?
...
written by Guest, June 04, 2006
quote:

"In the USA if you are arrested and don't have money to defend yourself you may rot in jail."

Even if you don't have money you do get a court appointed attorney, good or bad.

Please, don't try and compare the justice system in brazil with the system in the U.S., because if you are, you're truly ignorant of at least the brazilian system!
...
written by Guest, June 04, 2006
Quote:

"In the USA if you are arrested and don't have money to defend yourself, you may rot in jail. A good example of this is Gernomi Prat who the FBI had pictures of this man at a BP rally on the night of the murder of a school teacher in CA. in a different town. This man stayed in jail for twenty seven years. This man was also a decorated Viet Nam war hero. Some states have stop the execution of people on death row because with the development of DNA , many of these people have been exonerated of the crime they were charged with. Remember, the "Nite Owel Restaurant in LA Cond." that was based on a true story. Finally, The USA justice system is a big myth to a certain degree. Many innocent people are in jail and guilty people are walking the streets. The poor and non-whites are the victims of the USA justice system. Now, stop the BS that could happen to you or somebody in your family. How would you feel if you spent ten years in jail for the rape and murder of a child ten years old and the DNA tell you it was the child uncle?"


Reply:

I don't know anything about the Brazilian legal system so I can't comment on that. Looking at how some of Brazil's prisons are run, I would assume it's legal system is worse than the United States.

Having said that, I largely agree with your post above concerning the US legal system. While there are honorable people working in the US legal system, my own brief and limited experience with it awoke me out of my darkness about it. In my assessment of it, justice or innocence is *bought*. In my experience of it it has less to do with actual innocence and much more to do with *if you can afford to purchase a reasonable doubt, per retaining a good lawyer.* This is why so many black males are in the US prison system, simply because most of them could not afford (cash) to retain a good lawyer. If you are innocent but can't afford a good lawyer good chances are you will go to prison if charged with a felony. If you are guilty but can afford a good lawyer then you have a much high chance of obtaining a *reasonable doubt* or what we would call "not guilty verdict."

On the flip side to this there are consequently *many* Black American males that should be in prison but are not, usually the violent narcotic dealers who can afford good lawyers.
re:prisions
written by Guest, June 04, 2006
Of course if you have money you can hire a good lawyer and have a better chance of getting off in the US, the system is not perfect, by a long shot but it is better than most. Yes it does look like Prat was set up, but at least he got appeals until he finally got out, although of course much too late. But at least there is some rule of law, it's not brazil where you can easily buy your way through the justice system. Kenneth Lay would have never ever been convicted in brazil.
...
written by Guest, June 04, 2006
quote:

"If you are innocent but can't afford a good lawyer good chances are you will go to prison if charged with a felony. If you are guilty but can afford a good lawyer then you have a much high chance of obtaining a *reasonable doubt* or what we would call "not guilty verdict."

I agree with the last part of that statement, but not the first. If one is guilty there is no question, the better the lawyer, the more apt he is at being able to raise a reasonable doubt of guilt....but, if one is innocent I do not believe that if you don't have an exceptional, expensive, lawyer that you're more apt to get convicted. When one is innocent it's "usually" fairly easy to prove, or at least raise a reasonable doubt. I do understand that innocent people do get convicted, but out of the number of cases that actually go to trial in the U.S. I would say that number is very low.

I am familiar with the justice system here in brazil, matter of fact I'm in the middle of a court case currently, and against one of the richest men in the state where I live. He clearly violated the terms of a contract of buy and sale, not to mention committed fraud by not permitting us to put the true value of the purchase in the contract and title....we'll see how this one turns out.

One can believe this as well, that for MANY activities where one needs a lawyer, there are numerous simple things where a lawyer here in brazil is more costly than a lawyer in the U.S.!! And when taking into account the money that americans make, and the income of most brazilians, it's truly mind-boggling.

Getting back to the topic at hand, jails nor formal education are going to make much of a change here in respect to many things. I see people that have college educations on a daily basis, but yet they don't have respect for their neighbor, or anything for that matter. And I'm not talking about isolated incidents, I'm talking in mass.

When you have a combination of ignorance, stupidity, a general attitude of disrespect, for others, things, and the law, and an attitude of many that the law simply doesn't apply to them, you have a dangerous, explosive, combination. Hence you have brazil, one of the most violent countries on the face of the planet.
...
written by Guest, June 04, 2006
Quote:

"I am familiar with the justice system here in brazil, matter of fact I'm in the middle of a court case currently, and against one of the richest men in the state where I live. He clearly violated the terms of a contract of buy and sale, not to mention committed fraud by not permitting us to put the true value of the purchase in the contract and title....we'll see how this one turns out."


Reply:

Well, I wish you well with that.
Reply:Education and aid
written by Guest, June 05, 2006
I have been to Brazil five times and the first thing you notice is the street childrens. In Brazil, you have millions of childrens living on the streets with no parents. The government should should set up some kind of program to help these people. Ten years from now these childrens will be your future thugs.
Jails are a short term solutions, homes and schools are a long term solutions. In the USA, we have millions of people living in trailer parks, I don't see why the Brazilian govt. can't do the same thing. The weather in Brazil is ideal for trailer parks.
...
written by Guest, June 05, 2006
quote:

"jails will never help brazil. I'm trying to get in touch with the police right now about a situation, it's 1:30 am here, I got a recording saying to call back during business hours....LOL!!! I guess if you have a problem when most assaults and robberies really happen.....at night, you're simply f**ked!

This f**king country is truly something to behold...LOL!

I have NEVER....NEVER, seen people in MASS that absolutely, positively, have NO RESPECT FOR ANYTHING LIKE I HAVE HERE, IN BRAZIL!"

Just to let you know how this one turned out and the situation. I live in an apartment which I purchased a year and a half ago, a brand new building, was one of the first to move in, I purchased it for 450,000 reais, they are now being sold for 600,000. It is in the BEST neighborhood in the city in which I live. There is a brand new building across the street, people started moving in just six months ago. One would assume that if you live in a neighborhood where you must have money to live there you would be living in a place where your neighbors have a higher level of education, afterall, there is no bigger factor in correlation to wealth than education level.

I had some guests come to stay with me a week ago. One of which is a 63 year old man with a heart condition, he is from england. They travelled a total of 20 hours until they reached my city, needless to say they were exhausted, and arrived here approximately 1 a.m. Later that morning, at 7:15 am all of us were awoken by a car that looked like the wheels were ready to fall off at any moment, with speakers on top of it that were every bit as large as the car itself, blasting a man's voice talking about this child and that child with this problem and that problem and asking for money. He parked his car in front of our building and was there for 25 minutes until I finally had to go down and ask them if they could have a little respect for the people that lived here....he left shortly after.

So, we have last Friday, two days ago. There was a big birthday party in the building across the street, apparently for someone in the early 20's. They had a DJ and started playing must around 10 pm, the music was unbelievably loud, to say the least, and naturally from living here the years I have am accustomed to this, BUT, normally around midnight, or 1 am, they turn the music off. On this night the music continued until 4:45 a.m.!! It was so loud that no one could sleep in my entire neighborhood, my guest with the heart condition started complaining of chest pains, he couldn't rest, nor sleep, no one could.

I called the police barracks for my area, they gave me the number for another police station, they gave me the number for another, and they have me the number for yet another! No one wanted to take responsibility! Finally, after spending nearly 2 hours on the phone, it was 3 am by that time, one of the policemen I spoke with called the military police, the arrived around 20 minutes later, around 3:30 am, the young people having the party came down and spoke to them, they turned off the music, the police left, they immediately turned the music back on!!!! I called the police again, informed them what took place and they said there was nothing they could do, that they couldn't enter the building without permission from the building manager.

This morning I spoke with the manager of the building, asked him if they had rules as my building does about this type of thing, he said they do and that many people living in that very building complained. He told me the only thing he could do was to fine them, and he is doing just that, and that he was going to hold a meeting and change the penalties for doing such a thing to be more severe.

Just yesterday I went to the nearby gas station where they have a bakery inside, to buy bread, my guests were with me. It was around 8 pm in the evening and the place was packed. I got a parking space right in front as someone left as I was arriving. I went and made my purchases and when I came out there was a car parked directly behind my car....not in a parking space, but in the middle of everything. There was no way I could get out until the owner of the car moved his!

The problem here in brazil is that there has been a system of corruption, nepotism, and impunity from the law(if you have money or status), for so long, that the respect for the law, for others, for things, has completely detoriated, or has never existed!

The ideology of many here in brazil is corrupted, many think the laws and rules of a decent society simply don't apply to them, hence they don't respect them.

I don't know what brazil is going to do, but formal education isn't going to change this mess. This needs to start at home, parents need to have respect for others, the law, objects, and teach this to their children. Instead of having those that are immune to any consequences, and passing this attitude onto their children.

Neither formal education nor jails are going to change any of this.

If you expect to receive R-E-S-P-E-C-T in brazil, and only the same respect you give others.....you won't find it here!
Party on!
written by Guest, June 05, 2006
That's terrible about the party until 4:45 AM. They could have at least invited you to attend!

Sorry about the lack of concern, I was thinking about some serious problems, like violent crime, etc.

What you described could happen anywhere.
...
written by Guest, June 05, 2006
quote:

"What you described could happen anywhere."

Really? Does it happen day-in-day-out??? Everywhere huh?

Tell me, why in my 36 years in the U.S., and my 8 years in brazil, have I NEVER experienced ANYTHING even remotely close to the situations that occur here, in brazil, on a CONSISTANT BASIS?

Do you want more real stories?? I could write a book!
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written by Guest, June 05, 2006
Is not the natural state of things in every society to find the 2 classes, either the poor and downtrodden and a small uppercrust of the rich and the very rich.
The middling classes are in themselves a strange historic phenomena and are maybe already on their way out again. Thus we return to the age-old divide of the haves & havenots
what Brazil needs is...
written by Guest, June 05, 2006
Vergonha na cara!
...
written by Guest, June 05, 2006
quote:

"That's terrible about the party until 4:45 AM. They could have at least invited you to attend!

Sorry about the lack of concern, I was thinking about some serious problems, like violent crime, etc."

Let me ask you a question.....why do you think violent crimes happen here in brazil, and elsewhere?

Many times it's exactly because that one person, or group of people, don't have respect for others.

Do you start to get the "drift" now?
...
written by Guest, June 05, 2006
I agree it is about respect, but you had to know when you were moving to Brazil what you were getting into. When I lived in brazil and there were peolpe drumming outside my window, I just said f**k it's brazil what do you expect. Sure I would complain, if I thought it would do any good, but then I just put in my earplugs.The most hilarious part is that you seem not to realize that the wealthier the families in general the less respect they have for others in Brazil. So the fact that you live in a wealthy neighborhood means these little f**kers feel they are entitled to do anything. But don't forget it was a friday night, you would get the same thing with a bunch of frat kids in the US, the difference is when the cops finally came they would probably keep the music off for fear of the cops actually arresting or fining them.
...
written by Guest, June 06, 2006
well, a bunch of frat kids usually don't live or are having parties in rich sections of america and disrespecting others.

And I'm not talking about isolated incidents, I gave particular examples of what is a general attitude of a huge percentage, if not the majority, here where I live.

I did choose to live here, but in all honesty, I never dreamed it was this bad as far as attitudes of respect for others, if I would've known 8 years ago what I know today, I would've never agreed to move here.

My question is this. Naturally there are many old people in the city where I live and in brazil. Naturally there are people in brazil with poor health. What do these people do??

When one can't relax in his own home, where can he relax? When one can't escape the effects of poverty in an affluent neighborhood where can he?

Unfortunately I've discovered that you can't escape the poverty or disrespectful attitudes here in brazil regardless of where you live....they come knocking your door!
WHY DON´T YOU GO BACK?
written by Guest, June 06, 2006
Re: Party on
written by Guest, June 06, 2006
It is disturbing, but you can´t expect Brazil to be just like the US. Go back and you will be happy forever.
...
written by Guest, June 06, 2006
I don't expect it to be like the U.S., but I do expect respect, and only the respect that I give to others, as well as consideration, and unfortunately where I live these characteristics are very rare to say the least.
Re: The Party at 4.45 am
written by Guest, June 06, 2006
Man, you are here for 8 years and you did not learn. Next time call PCC. They will send some guys that will clean the party.
Brazil
written by Guest, June 06, 2006
I sold my house because in my area the kids became teenagers, drug addicts, traficants, murders, prostitutes, etc... It is now a dangerous area to live. All high middle class.
Party on
written by Guest, June 06, 2006
Sorry to say this man...but if you knew better you would have never phoned the brazilian police for such a trivial incident because they have their hands full with much more serious stuff.
The PCC woul have certainly cleaned up the party I can assure you.
...
written by Guest, June 06, 2006
No, not here in my city, most of the police were sleeping, lol. I could tell when they answered the phone, and at the beginning I got one recorded message saying to call back during business hours...wtf is that? Finally after calling one precinct 3 times, after I was passed to a total of 5 different precincts, finally the one cop radio'd the military police, they were here in 20 minutes after that.
police sleepin??????
written by Guest, June 06, 2006
Where do you live man....in the middle of nowhere????
...
written by Guest, June 06, 2006
sleeping mean
nervous fingers
written by Guest, June 06, 2006
s**t....sleeping I mean
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written by Guest, June 06, 2006
nope, live in the capitol of a state in the northeast.
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written by Guest, June 06, 2006
Well you live in the Northeast what do you really expect. In a giant zoo that part is considered the lions den. I figured out the first five minutes I was in the Northeast that it was loud and disrespectful, even for Brazil. If you want civilization and quited move to the south, but don't complain about the weather afterwards. You really should have known what you were getting into before moving there.
...
written by Guest, June 07, 2006
So it's my fault I chose to live here huh? OK, I can live with that, what about my 4 year old child who lives with her mother? She'll have to stay here and be subjected to this environment and attitudes her entire life....is it her fault she was born here?
...
written by Guest, June 07, 2006
She asked for it.
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written by Guest, June 07, 2006
huh?
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written by Guest, June 07, 2006
your daughter receives the legacy of your choices.Live with that.
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written by Guest, June 07, 2006
I would say her mothers choices, as her brazilian mother pulled the oh-so-familiar brazilian women "I'll stop taking the pill and won't tell him" trick.
The Northeast
written by Guest, June 07, 2006
The people of the Northeast have a rep**ation throughout Brazil for being very slow.

Here's a typical joke (apologies to the people from the Northeast that don't fit this stereotype):

Two Nordestinos are lying in hammocks. One says to the other "Joao, do we have any snakebite anti-venom? Joao answers "No, I don't think so, why?" The response: "I think that I see a snake coming in our direction".

Another well known cartoon (used for a screen-saver in Brazil) depicts a man with a rope around his neck standing next to a tree that is about half his height. The other end of the rope is tied to the tree. The caption: "Suicide Bahian-style".

Even in Bahia, people make jokes about themselves like this.
trapped
written by Guest, June 08, 2006
Buddy, the "i'll stop taking the pill and won't tell him trick" happens all over the world. You should have been using a condom. I'm sure your daughter is lovely, but you do not sound like the type of guy who should be living in a foreign culture. If you have been living there eight years and still don't know that thier is a serious lack of respect and a sense of entitlement amongst wealthy brazilians especially in the Northeast where they have mostly inherited there position in life unlike in a place like SP where many people have actually worked thier way up. It really sounds like you are struggling. I know you have a daughter but it sounds like you should really leave, at the very least the northeast.
Please Don\'t Play the Martyr!
written by Guest, June 08, 2006
Put up the white flag of surrender. You are doing your daughter NO favors by staying in a place you actually detest. Its like being staying in a horrible marriage "for the sake of the children".

So you may lose contact with your daughter ifyou leave but if she wants to see you when she is an adult the plane flies both ways. Why stay in a place and deteriorate mentally? Kids will UNDERSTAND. Do not endure misery just "for the sake of the children".

Better to risk losing your child than losing your mind. Kids adapt and grow up and if they are interested in meeting a parent later in life they find a way to do so.

You may have to put paternal and guilt feelings inside and hop on the first thing smoking out of what you have described as a virtual hellhole.
If you want
written by Guest, June 08, 2006
I can manage to find a better and suitable wife for you. Only tell me what country do you prefer. We do any bussiness...
Abdullah
...
written by Guest, June 08, 2006
It is a hell hole here for me, well, for anyone in my opinion that isn't accustomed to it, and even for many that I know that have lived here their entire lives....they don't like the attitudes of the people here.

Anyway, I just can't get myself to leave my daughter, she's the most important thing to me. And naturally she's not aware of my disdain for the place....yet.

Soon I may be able to spend half of the year in the U.S. and the other half here, and my daughter would spend some ti