Brazzil

A series of cherry-picked stories told by activists to support the image you are trying to sell to the rest of the world of Brazil, that is widely practiced and supported around here, and as any other text produced by you and published in here, It's not true, it's more like the wishful thinking of an american trying to "teach" brazilians about "the only truth". Following a well known discourse and reasoning accepted by activists in order to support their agenda.

I have a problem with your first citation, they cite many other studies made in Europe and in the US where the segregation is big and that is not appliable to Brazil, but the worst of it is that seems to try to fall in the mistake of bogus statistics (many that you have repeated to the exhaustion, by the way) like the "lower wages". It's not reasonable to think that in the same company two individuals might make different amount of money simply because they are of different races, this data is simply the average that doesn't take into consideration the differences in economy in the different regions of the country, or the different realities accross many companies.

For example, with R$ 2000,00 you can have a nice life in the Northeast, but in Sao Paulo you will be low middle class, and will definetely not have a luxurious life. The cost of life is much higher there, therefore the salaries are higher than anywhere else, be it a skilled job or not. There are differences even inside of the same state, between large and small cities. These numbers are inevitably biased.

This kind of misinterpretation is everywhere in your texts. Another common is the misinterpretation of "political correctness". Most people will say there's racism, too much crime, too much corruption, too much bad things, too much everything, simply because this is the perceived atittude of conscious citizen, if they say otherwise then they are a possible target to personal attacks as we see so commonly in this forum, where many people bash anyone that shows a different point of view that doesn't match with the "political correctness" expected by our society. The authors show the "political correct" thing, and people are expected to go along with it, without questioning the truthfulness of the affirmations.

Now, the same people that say that there's racism in Brazil don't think they are racist themselves, why is that? That's because they were being politically correct! This is used as basis of a whole argumentation of "they are hiding racism". Without it this castle of cards crumbles.

They just go to a small group, make questions and take simple percentages. This is by no means representative of the whole country, even if their conclusions were correct, which it is not the case.

I don't buy it. It looks more like activist stuff in disguise of "intellectual work".

The "good qualities" and "bad qualities" thing is just a reflex of what we see in the society, not the way we want to see it. For historical reasons the blacks were always in the lower part of the pyramid, and despite of the many advancements, there's still this difference. It doesn't mean that's the way people want to be! There's nothing preventing black people from advancing, if they don't then there's something wrong. We have some too much social inequality, and poverty or stupidity are the main causes of it.

This argument of "people practices racism" in their judgements based on color is pure fantasy. If there were such widespread thing, then there wouldn't be mixing at all. People living together is not an anomaly around here, and not badly seen, it happens everywhere. If people were so worried about "whiteness" they would avoid mixing at all, and would create very specific ethnics myths such as americans do, with all the Aryan stuff and who is white and who is not classifications.

I would like to say that I always thought I was better than anyone else (be it white, black, moreno, etc), this is called "self-confidence" and has helped me to achieve much of the goals I set for myself, but it doesn't matter what anyone think of anybody, it doesn't change what you are capable of. People should be empowered through education, not taught to be victims forever suffering unjustice.There will always be differences it's up to everybody to fight for improvement.

For last, there's no racism in Brazil. A few idiots, and I know they exist, aren't enough to characterize the whole society of 180 million people. Anyone, foreigner or brazilian can tell how blacks are not oppressed in here.

I agree with Mark Wells as far as he quotes examples of racial-based segregation in Brazil, racism DOES exist in Brazil even if I do not agree with his propoposals regarding the implementation of American-style culturally segregationist solutions where cultural gropus are created and divided with barbed wire fences according to skin color. Besides it would be totally unnatural (i.e. unbrazilian) to promote the cultural differetiation of black Brazilian people in a country where, unlike the US, blacks and whites (and mulattos and native americans too and all the 20000000 shades in between) DO share a high percentage of common culture that makes Brazil so beautiful and unique. In order to fight the evil of racism, let's not strenghten it even more with American recipes. America toady is obsessed with money and sees society only though dollar bills, considering people not as citizens but just as consumers of goods, what's important as a human being is to have the same financial resources as other human being (culture is just a tool to get that not a quality itself) when paying at the local mall where all social activity is carried out. So the dream of an equal society is the one where Black and Whites have the same money and each lives in his/her own planet. I walk around Brazil and see a beautiful country where old men of all colours sit around a table and play cards or play some music. Let's not change that, let's not mix the battle against racism and segregation with the evil of cultural fences.
(US School of cultural segregationism....: a few days ago I have stumbled upon one more time to some very bitter and negative reamarks about interracial couples in "Ebony" magazine, felt a bit sad noticing this NAZI garbage marring once again what is usually an informative magazine for those interested in African American culture...). Racist white and black people are making the life of all mulatto people in the States real hell as they don't fit in neither of their categories.






For anyone interested in racial dynamics as far as language and slang are concerned Prof. jennifer ROthe Gordon has written soem very informative essays.

http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Race_Ethnicity/roth-gordon/writing.htm

I don't agree with Mark Wells when he says that Brazil hides racist attitudes of some of its white and mulatto citizens and Brazilian society as a whole. It is actually the contrary, everyone is totally aware of them, what I condemn is rather that Brazilians tend to have passive attitude towarsd it : (same applies regarding politics & corruption). I was watching the very beautiful tv series "Cidade dos Homens" showing two favela kids Acerola & Laranjinha growing up and judging society aound them. Nothing was hidden: in the 4th edition they are told they cannot get a job because they are black ("good appearance"), the mother of a rich white girl Laranjingha is dating doesn't want her daughter to date a black guy (but hey !!! in Brazil you see many black kids french kissing prime time white girls...something which seems still totally forbidden in "politically-correct" US...).

I think the things you mention aren't racism. Here is what I think:

- The guy is a favelado, if I had a daughter I wouldn't want her to date a favelado too. Would you? What kind of future would they have in the favela?

- And good appearance counts for some kinds of jobs, especially the ones that deal with the public. I have seen already obese people not being hired for the same reason. Usually thin, good looking and well dressed people seem to get those jobs. Is this fair? I don't know, but sure it makes sense since the public will see this person face and associate it with a company or brand.

For the same reason you see models being used for all kinds of advertisement campaigns. Do we really see pretty women drinking beer in dirty bars? Do we really see sportsmen smoking cigarretes?

No I do not agree. Discrimination against obese people is understandable when it entails certain jobs where looks are necessary (models etc.). Yet the "good appearance" discriminating against Black people in Brazilian job market is racist as it is just based on skin color (especially in a country where it is full of beautiful Black girls and boys like Brazil). Even Darlan Cunha "Laranjinha" is a very good-looking guy so it is obvious "good appearance" request is just a racist trick to discriminate black people. And I don't think it is the fact that he is a favelado the real problem there...

Lets reverse this from the bad whities taking advantage of the poor blackies....into a question. Why are blacks usually lower on the social scale in many societies, even those where they are a majority? It cant always be the failing of the lighter races...maybe....just maybe the problem lies with the darker one.......if anyone has a reason (and not an obviously racist one) I would like to hear it because I am tired of the blame always with the lighter ones....it just seems to convinient to blame others

Not only modeling jobs but jobs that deal directly with customers, such as working in a shopping mall store or a bank. They will give preference to "good appearence", usually it means a good socio-economical level, no visible deformities nor diseases, no obesity, being attractive a plus.

I am not saying this is the right thing. What I mean is that we live in a society where such images are used to sell people all kinds of things, and it's not only models that need to be thin.

For last, there's no racism in Brazil. A few idiots, and I know they exist, aren't enough to characterize the whole society of 180 million people. Anyone, foreigner or brazilian can tell how blacks are not oppressed in here.

Jesus you're as dumb as an ox. You are the epitomy of the blind, ignorant, flag-waving brazilian.

He doesn´t get around much any more.

I am sorry if I offended anybody. I used harsh language when I said 'vicious', the truth is that I want things to work for Brazil, and for this to happen people need to see the problems that this country has. I read some of the articles written by Mr Mark Wells and I was impressed by his lack of knowledge regarding Brazil, what a shame, this racial talk does not build any good for Brazil, and it is actually very frustrating to see him posing behind such bad sources. Mr. Wells did you know that Brazil lacks historical documentation that maintain your points of argument. This is the reality. Gilberto Freyre used mostly lousy arguments when he wrote his book 'Masters and Slaves' he did not have historical documentation to back his claims. Most of it was destroyed by the Brazilian government in the past, look at what Rui Barbosa did with brazilian records of slavary after the end of the Empire. Study more, as I understand you are getting a master now. I would recommend you use primary sources to do your research. Thank you Dante

You and A Brazilian have made serious charges regarding the poor sources and research of Mark Wells. Now if this is true, the folks who run this site are doing a serious disservice to the public by running articles by a man who has NO IDEA what he is talking about. Moreover, Wells himself is extremely careless publishing his sources when he knows you folks can so easily point to how bad they are. If I were perpetrating such a fraud, I would not publish my sources. Both possibilities seem very unlikely to me, but I will be in favor of an effort to ban Wells from this site if you can show me the specific facts he cites that can be refuted per other published works. Anyone willing to start the ball rolling guys? What, is that deafening silence I hear?
Oh well, at least North Korea is going to end its nuclear program according to news reports.

Agree 100% with comment about Gilberto Freyre.

I believe everyone has a point to a certain degree...not all right nor all wrong. But I tell you...I was so happy when I was introduced to the culture in 1997..Ive never looked back since..I have experienced some racsist attitudes in Rio before but it wont stop me from enjoying the country and the culture. I plan on marrying one of those lovely women, so I will have to deal with it...as a black american I am used to a little racism from both sides (i have a lighter complexion)...ce la vie, (spelling?) i just want to be happy...given the pretty landscape, beaches, good food and music...I will take the bad in stride....be positive and happy!

Let's not ban anybody, he is currently a student and he is learning about the country just like I am and you are, we always have something to learn and to improve. It is easy to be passionate regarding subjects like this; I was irrational in my discussion with Peter and 'a Brazilian'. They returned bad comments regarding myself. I came to the conclusion that we are building nothing and we are only confusing people. Let’s not take this discussion to such bad levels. Americans and Brazilians have good points and bad points just as makeba said. I appreciate your concern regarding his sources. The sources are really bad. My point is: racism really exists in Brazilian society, but not as badly as he says. The historical references regarding racism are hard to prove since primary sources in Brazil are very hard to find. All we have today regarding the history of slavery in Brazil are a few journals and local references regarding the subject. The main files regarding slavery were burned by the Brazilian government in order to avoid 'future problems'. Sao Paulo lost most of its files from the 16th to the 17th century. The Portuguese files in Lisbon were also mostly lost; a few things remain in the "Torre do Tombo". The Portuguese files were mostly lost during the Earthquake of Lisbon during the 18th century. This is the reason why Brazilian history is so badly written; even if authors tried to look for them it was very hard to get your hands on them. Another example of a bad source is when Mr. Wells said that Elite women from Sao Paulo were a mix of ‘indian and white’. There is no evidence that this is correct. One author wrote about the mixing of Portuguese and natives in the beginning of the 16th century, his name was Luiz Gonzaga da Silva Leme, his research was genealogical and based mostly on oral history from the 19th century. Brazilians (Portuguese) were becoming very nationalist when Silva Leme wrote his book, and they used this to differentiate them from the Portuguese born in Portugal. The Paulistas actually acted superior to the Portuguese, they thought that they had more rights to the land since they had blood from the Portuguese nobility and were also descendents from the first 'Leader' of Sao Paulo, in this case native chief 'Tibirica'. It is interesting to trace a parallel here to the history of Virginia, were the Southern Aristocracy of the United States made the same claims during the Civil War. Well, if you ask me if I believe all this I will say, show me documents proving it. The truth is that they do not exist. So the claim that Elite women from Sao Paulo were mixed is more Myth than history. I hope I helped you and others better understand the issues we are dealing here. Brazilian historians that wrote books after Silva Leme always repeated the same lousy arguments. Another point here, Brazilian history never suffered a review like American history did. By the way I worked doing historical research in the United States for years and I worked specially with slavery and Southern families from the United States. The American South had a very similar history if compared to Sao Paulo, until the civil war obviously. The North of Brazil in the other hand had a system close to the Caribbean and can not be compared to the US. That is why Freyre got most of his research wrong. He believed that Americans treated slaves much worst than Brazilians. Again, he was wrong. Americans treated their slaves better than North Brazilians and similar to Paulistas.

A good link regarding the Virgina Aristocracy and Matoaka http://xroads.virginia.edu/~cap/POCA/POC-home.html

website of the University of Virginia:

"As stated, Pocahontas had been assumed as both a literal and figurative mother of Virginia's elite whites. Through her marriage with Rolfe she was in fact progenitor to many of the state's 'unofficial' aristocracy--John Marshall, John Randolph, and Thomas Jefferson all claimed space in the family tree. Indeed, the tracing of her genealogy proved a popular pastime for these elites.

As debates over the legitimacy of slavery grew more strident, the Plantation holders used the Pocahontas legend to legitimate their place in society and way of life. John Esten Cooke's 1861 "A Dream of the Cavaliers" proclaims Pocahontas as "Virgin Queen of the West" a counterpart to England's "Virgin Queen", Elizabeth I. These two matriarchs legitimate each other in some ways, and more specifically the modern ante-bellum slave empire."

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~cap/POCA/POC-sect.html

racism exists everywhere, but in Brazil it`s less aggressive than in the US or in other countries that have real racism problems, I think that most Brazilians acknowledge that.

I totally agree. Wells has a right to write about anything he wants and if anyone does not agree with what he says they can come up with facts proving he is wrong. Simply saying he is a foreigner and should thus stop writing about Brazil or doing research about Brazil is wrong. Remember we all are ignorant and life is all about learning day by day. Debates are always stimulating especially when they have a different perspective as it always is with a foreigner's view.When looking at our countries we sometimes tend to consider normal what might not be normal so we should welcome different prespectives. For the same reason I disagree when I hear Italian historians criticizing "a priori" foreign historians or researchers writing about Italian history/politics or society for example.

I agree with your post

The historical references regarding racism are hard to prove since primary sources in Brazil are very hard to find. All we have today regarding the history of slavery in Brazil are a few journals and local references regarding the subject. The main files regarding slavery were burned by the Brazilian government in order to avoid 'future problems'. Sao Paulo lost most of its files from the 16th to the 17th century. The Portuguese files in Lisbon were also mostly lost; a few things remain in the "Torre do Tombo". The Portuguese files were mostly lost during the Earthquake of Lisbon during the 18th century. This is the reason why Brazilian history is so badly written

Hitler "lost" his files as well pertaining to how many million jews died during dentist visits by "accidental" overdoses of gas. Think it's pretty safe to assume that holocaust thing was all a big hoax.

Once you are confronted with facts you just use the card "show me published works". In the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century there were something called "scientific racism", where some scientists had evidences of the superiority of some races. Was this right? Probably, for many "american historians" around the globe.

And that was with biology, that's far easier to prove than the topics selected by the author. Now this kind of study doesn't involve any mathematical certainty or reproducible experiment we can all see by ourselves and say it is 100% undeniably true, it's simply a conclusion that relies on shoddy statistics, non provable historical "facts", the author's own interpretation of them and his personal values.

Have you actually read the first citation? I invite you to do so. Actually this was the first citation that actually was something closer to a study. Until then Mark Wells had cited opinions, blogs, websites, newsites, and all kinds of worthless pieces of text.

For example, in the text the author cite a study made in Europe with europeans testing their "racism" towards immigrants, and made a parallel to the brazilian situation. How's that possible!? Blacks aren't aliens in here, they haven't arrived last week! And there isn't a clear line separating "us vs them" just like it is in the case of "europeans vs immigrants" and "whites vs blacks in the US"!

Another example, the author asks if the group thinks there's racism, the vast majority says "yes" (being political correct), and then he concludes something like if they say that it exists but they don't see themselves as racists then they are hiding it, or it proves that racism is hidden in Brazil. For me it only proves they were being politically correct.

Besides, this goes completely against anything we see, live and learn in this society and it is, fundamentally, illogical. If there were so much values attribute to one certain race then we would see laws and cultural segregation in order to make sure the white are still pure white. The very idea of "whitening for pleasing Europe" that black activists use is stupid because according to Europeans there's no such thing, if there's mixing then you are not whitening anybody, you are just blackening them.

American Historian
written by A brazilian, 2007-02-14 11:18:35

Once you are confronted with facts you just use the card "show me published works". In the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century there were something called "scientific racism", where some scientists had evidences of the superiority of some races. Was this right? Probably, for many "american historians" around the globe.

And that was with biology, that's far easier to prove than the topics selected by the author. Now this kind of study doesn't involve any mathematical certainty or reproducible experiment we can all see by ourselves and say it is 100% undeniably true, it's simply a conclusion that relies on shoddy statistics, non provable historical "facts", the author's own interpretation of them and his personal values.

Have you actually read the first citation? I invite you to do so. Actually this was the first citation that actually was something closer to a study. Until then Mark Wells had cited opinions, blogs, websites, newsites, and all kinds of worthless pieces of text.

For example, in the text the author cite a study made in Europe with europeans testing their "racism" towards immigrants, and made a parallel to the brazilian situation. How's that possible!? Blacks aren't aliens in here, they haven't arrived last week! And there isn't a clear line separating "us vs them" just like it is in the case of "europeans vs immigrants" and "whites vs blacks in the US"!

Another example, the author asks if the group thinks there's racism, the vast majority says "yes" (being political correct), and then he concludes something like if they say that it exists but they don't see themselves as racists then they are hiding it, or it proves that racism is hidden in Brazil. For me it only proves they were being politically correct.

Besides, this goes completely against anything we see, live and learn in this society and it is, fundamentally, illogical. If there were so much values attribute to one certain race then we would see laws and cultural segregation in order to make sure the white are still pure white. The very idea of "whitening for pleasing Europe" that black activists use is stupid because according to Europeans there's no such thing, if there's mixing then you are not whitening anybody, you are just blackening them.

This is "A brazilian II", for those of you that may be confused. In contrast to "A brazilian I" who normally can't put two congruent sentences together and has major problems with prepositions, not to mention takes higher doses of ritalin.

I think you are right Bo, this is A Brazilian II or maybe even A Brazilian III of the new and improved variety. I feel like the guy who picked a fight with the boy Brazilian but now the bigger older brother has stepped into the fight. Let me ponder my response.....

You do raise some interesting points above. And I have argued there are more similarities between the old White American southern elites and the old elites of Brazil than many Brazilians want to admit. I think you could add some interesting points to these discussions.

A Brazilian II
written by The American Historian, 2007-02-14 14:30:23

I think you are right Bo, this is A Brazilian II or maybe even A Brazilian III of the new and improved variety. I feel like the guy who picked a fight with the boy Brazilian but now the bigger older brother has stepped into the fight. Let me ponder my response.....

LOL...I fee ya!

I think that, if the unique country in the world where the races were mixed is racist, what can we say about the other countries?
I don´t agree with the article at all.

As someone has repeatedly pointed out, there is no racism in Brazil. There is, however, racial predudice.

prejudice

Only in the minds of american racists, of all colors.

What? Of course there is racism in Brazil. Unless you live in an isolated Island in the coast of Brazil you are completely wrong. Have you seen the data regarding race in Salvador? Brazil is a very complex country; it should not be analyzed with a broad generic view. The reality in Rio Grande do Sul is completely different from the reality in Amapa or Alagoas. It is truth that Brazil is changing fast and the media is making Brazil gain a broad and united culture. This is recent, Getulio Vargas started it.

Would you mind to share that data you are talking about? For me this is more of those "politically correct" talks. It's not obvious that there would be racism in Brazil, unless you are expecting it to have, which would means a preconceived idea, more likely due to the "politically correct" mania.

That is a good post, Dante. When I came to Brazil in the late 60´s to live I asked my aunt about Getulio.

"We liked him", she said.

That´s a true story but reminds me of one told about Castro. Guy visiting Cuba asks a Cuban what he thinks about Castro. "Not here, too many people". So they go down an alley. "Not here, there are windows, someone might be listening". At the end of the alley is a vacant lot, with weeds, the Cuban looks carefully and takes the gringo to the middle of the lot. He gets close and whispers, "I like him!".

Data on Salvador, Bahia (United Nations):

http://www.pnud.org.br/raca/reportagens/index.php?id01=2050&lay=rac

Yes, Ric. Regarding Vargas, he was a fascist that is loved in Brazil to this day. The new generation does not realize what he did to the country. Something even more interesting, the supporters of Getulio are normally left wingers and communists. Weird!

Could you please explain how this data proves "racism"?

Oh, I forgot, you have problems interpreting. I will tell you what. Do you live in Sao Paulo? Go to one of the many ‘favelas’ in your city, and look for a black person. I know you can find black people in other parts of the town, but it is much harder. Take the person to the Iguatemi Mall, give the person some money and ask the person to buy something. Watch what happens. You can even use a video camera, if that person is treated just as a white person, I will take back everything I said. A brazilian, I lived in Brazil for many years, I saw it everyday.

The sun shines bright in the old Kentucky home,
`Tis summer, the darkies* are gay.....

"*darkies" changed in 1988 by legislative action to "people"

Once again you jump to conclusions based solely on your faith and preconceived ideas. The text says 99% of people killed are non-whites in a population whose the total quantity of non-whites comprise more than 80%. That's not racism. Racism would be if it were 99%, all of them killed by whites, which is not the case, where the population of non-whites were only 20% or some other low number.

How many of those 99% of people killed were killed by whites? So blacks killing blacks count as racism? It's white people's fault that they kill each other?

Inequality is different than racism. Hipothetically, if it were the opposite, if the majority of favelados were white would it be racism against the white people?

As I said earlier, being polically correct is the standard nowadays and some people want to see racism in Brazil simply they believe it should be.

Take the person to the Iguatemi Mall, give the person some money and ask the person to buy something. Watch what happens. You can even use a video camera, if that person is treated just as a white person, I will take back everything I said.

I see it already, black people in the Iguatemi mall. Yes, the same mall you mentioned. And I have relatives that happen to look black, and some other day one of them were telling me about a camera he was seeing in some store in the Iguatemi mall.

There's no racism in Brazil. You were the one that called the rest of this country vicious, and that Sao Paulo was better than anyone else, and still want to call others racist? I think you are the one that is racist, it's in your mind. Usually people that have racist ideas feel bad about themselves, and the way they see to make it up is to recognize and show the "racism".

I have seen this script of "from racist to nice person" at least once (maybe more times and I don't remember). People that said all life real nasty things about other people, one day they realize how small they are and want to make it up to the people they mistreated.

How does one "happen" to look black, A.B.?

When someone have many ancestors but happen to look more like black.

This Wells is a USA guy trying to impose USA political correct COLONIALISM on Brasil> I lved in Campo Drande Rio State & Copacabana--I know Brasil==I also live in Caracas. This type of person [Wells} is nothing more then a colonialist--PLEAASE--IN THE NAME OF A PERSON WHO ADORES THE REAL SOUTH AMERICA--ACCEPT BY APOLOGY ON BEHALF OF THIS COLONIALIST WELLS--HE WILL RUIN BRASIL & SOUTH AMERICA.DO NOT ALLOW HIM TO TOUCH YOUR CULTURE---HIS KIND RUIN YOUR FUTURES--NEVER ALLOW WELLS & HIS CHOSEN ONES TO RUIN BRASIL AS THEY DO NORTH AMERICA-------PLEASE FORGIVE US FOR SENDING HIM TO YOU--EU TE AMO BRASIL----AMOR POR TODOS--MR BOOGIE

State Song of Kentucky
written by Ric, 2007-02-15 18:19:56

The sun shines bright in the old Kentucky home,
`Tis summer, the darkies* are gay.....

"*darkies" changed in 1988 by legislative action to "people"

LMAO!! Damn.

Yes, the Kentucky thing raises more questions than it answers. Why did the lone African-American (perhaps lone African-North American would be less offensive to some) elected official object to the word "darkie" but "black" is okay?

And why didn´t they change the other terms that clearly indicated that Foster was talking about slaves, kids rolling around on the little cabin floor?

And since the word "gay" has taken on new meaning, why aren´t those people protesting the implications?

And since at Order of the Arrow Boy Scout Camps we used to throw our "faggots on the fire", why hasn´t that been properly investigated?

So many questions, so few answers......why is the word "pickaninny" opprobrious when it is just a corruption of the Portuguese word, "pequeninhos"? Must have come from Angola or Mozambique.

Just trying to learn. Why doesn´t Brazil´s law against racial slurs apply as well to verbal attacks on the Pomeranians in Espirito Santo? We´ve all heard that, maybe even last week.

Prove it! Remember that you criticized Mr. Wells because he used his personal experience, I do not like that either. And now you are using it. Prove it! For the second time, no personal attacks please. Show me the video, since for you no data in the world is correct and you are the ultimate source of knowledge.

I don't know who you are dude (or dudette) but what is so great about the real South America for that region's blacks and Indians? And how have Wells and by implication other black Americans "ruined" the United States? Oh yes, all that South American poverty must be such a wonderful way of life; that must be why you see so many Americans--including black Americans rushing to migrate to that continent, right? And that must be why when one watches South American television programs you wonder if all the actors and actresses are Canadian. And that must be why quite a few Brazilians in recent years are planning to take very long vacations--vacations that could last the rest of their lives--to Europe and the U.S. You must be on something good buddy. We need some good comedy acts for the upcoming Academy Awards here in the U.S. so maybe I can sign you up?

And that must be why when one watches South American television programs you wonder if all the actors and actresses are Canadian

That's not true, you find people of all types on TV. But talking is cheap, you can talk whatever you want and that's it, not responsility over the quality of the information, nothing. Those inclined to believe in it, racists, will do and those who are not will not.

And that must be why quite a few Brazilians in recent years are planning to take very long vacations--vacations that could last the rest of their lives--to Europe and the U.S.

That's interesting, are you trying to make a relationship with clueless people that accept to clean toilets in the US for a living with racism? If so, how? Do you know any brazilian in the US in such situation?

Show me the video, since for you no data in the world is correct and you are the ultimate source of knowledge.

You want me to send you a video of this situation? Hahahahahahaha. And how would this serve as an evidence? Couldn't I just stage something with some friend of mine? The challenge you made is ridiculous because there's no way to "prove" it, you know that, that's why you made it. Now you are asking for "evidence"? Why don't you try to make a study by hiding a camera in a some black woman's purse and then let her go to a store, where she doesn't know the seller?

You made a claim without any evidence and now request an evidence from someone that says it's wrong? The one that must prove is the accuser, you are the accuser so you are the one that should come up with the evidence.

Well A Brazilian, Mark Wells, myself and others have tried to save you from yourself but you will not listen. I forsee a Brazilian Hugo Chavez--that is a mixed-race Brazilian savior type in your future. But people like you will have left the majority of Brazilians with no choice. Then you, A Brazilian will move to the U.S. for one of those toilet-cleaning jobs you say you so despise and as I, the Historian pass you on the street I will have no choice but to say I told you so my pal. Now go out and have some fun because I know it is Samba season in Brazil.

thats soo harsh to read i myself a black french canadian wow after all these years even brazil a country that has majority mix peoples still think like that way i guess humans in general are animals i hate the fact that its been so long i guess humans will never change

Thanks to Mark for another very good article. I always believe that this Brazilian racial democracy is a fantasy, nothing like foreign eyes to see some truths,spoken by somebody with native, black and white genetic stock ancestry. Have a great carnival time.

Sao Paulo was indeed similar to the American South, many Americans moved to Brazil and founded the colony of Americana, they did it because they saw Sao Paulo as a society very similar to their ideal plan for the United States. Brazil had a monarch descendent from the most powerful royal houses of Europe (Hapsburg from Austria and Bourbon from France), an elite that was descendant from Portuguese aristocrats; and the political power was in the hands of the plantation owners of Sao Paulo(slave owners) and not the industrial elite of Sao Paulo (Similar to the American North and against slavery).

Virginia Tech Library:
http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1995/vp950418/04180268.htm

Janessa, please learn how to write properly. I can't understand what you mean.

Eddie, if you believe this is "well written" then I would suggest you to read more.

You are just another gringo trash trying to spread racial hatred globally, please get together with your brothers from the KKK and continue playing "black vs. white" in there. The rest of the world doesn't need racist scum like yourself.

You seem to be pretty ignorant about history and the current situation of Brazil by "foreseeing" the much you have in your little comment. The people that go to the US are losers, the type of loser that would clean toilets in Brazil too. Fortunately I was born intelligent, so I can have a very successful life right here in Brazil.

You just live to insult people, don´t you, Abe Razillion? It is not possible to hide feelings of inadequacy behind a false bravado. A very wise African-American named Father Divine once said, "It´s nice to be nice.". Try it.

Nigeria is 140 million strong, rich in oil, in West Africa, overwhelmingly black, and has huge poverty problems. Black Americans should spend more of their pan-African time worrying about fixing black Nigerian problems and not the large mixed-race Brazil's problems (assuming they have any).

Yahoonews story: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200...TAS99vaA8F

written by e harmony, 2007-02-20 09:54:56

Nigeria is 140 million strong, rich in oil, in West Africa, overwhelmingly black, and has huge poverty problems. Black Americans should spend more of their pan-African time worrying about fixing black Nigerian problems and not the large mixed-race Brazil's problems (assuming they have any).

Yahoonews story: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200...TAS99vaA8F

Excerpt from the article. Emphasis in bold mine.

"The politicians have stolen all the money. They have their children schooling overseas. I never went to school because I had to work in the farm with my father," said Ladan, 24, who sleeps outdoors and pays a fee to use someone's bucket to wash.

The U.N. Development Programme estimates nine out of 10 of Nigeria's 140 million people live on less than $2 per day.

Nigeria's National Bureau of Statistics uses a relative measure of poverty that sets the breadline as low as 51 cents a day. More than half the population don't make it above that.

written by The American Historian, 2007-02-16 14:31:46

I don't know who you are dude (or dudette) but what is so great about the real South America for that region's blacks and Indians? And how have Wells and by implication other black Americans "ruined" the United States? Oh yes, all that South American poverty must be such a wonderful way of life; that must be why you see so many Americans--including black Americans rushing to migrate to that continent, right? And that must be why when one watches South American television programs you wonder if all the actors and actresses are Canadian. And that must be why quite a few Brazilians in recent years are planning to take very long vacations--vacations that could last the rest of their lives--to Europe and the U.S. You must be on something good buddy. We need some good comedy acts for the upcoming Academy Awards here in the U.S. so maybe I can sign you up?

Sao Paulo is an extremely racially cosmopolitan city - probably more so than Chicago. In fact I recall one Asian Canadian who visited both Sao Paulo and New York describing Sao Paulo as a "tropical New York City" with ethnic restaurants from all over the world. There is no reason to suspect Milan or Naples is more racially and ethnically diverse than Sao Paulo - other than in racist stereotypical minds on Americans (USA).

Sao Paulo is not "tropical", look at the map.... hahaha Sao Paulo like New York and Chicago... you have no idea of what you are saying...

Now how do you know I don't spend any time criticizing Nigeria, other African countries or even my fellow black Americans? I am a regular poster at a web site called Booker Rising (though I will not tell you which name I post under) and everyday myself and others rip some of our fellow black Americans as well as overseas blacks pretty well. I have seen only one focus on criticism of Brazil at Booker Rising in two years. Much more criticism is directed at their fellow black Americans, those in Africa and at the general Muslim world. Currently, there are big debates regarding the candidacy of Barack Obama. Most black Americans are not focused on tearing down Brazil. And those of us who do criticize Brazil do so with the hope it will improve in a way that benefits all of its citizens, and not simply in the hypocritical "we are a racial democracy" way that is rampant in Latin America.

This is not rocket science guys. Countries that invest in all of their citizens outperform those that do not in today's world. This is true whether in Africa or Latin America. Show me a Brazil that permits discrimination against a big share of its population and I will show you a Brazil that always remains the country of the future.

written by Torontonian, 2007-02-20 13:02:05

Sao Paulo is not "tropical", look at the map.... hahaha Sao Paulo like New York and Chicago... you have no idea of what you are saying...

Sao Paulo has been described as "the Chicago of Latin America" and Sao Paulo is bigger than both New York and Chicago. I've seen videos of Sao Paulo and have been in both Chicago and New York - yes Sao Paulo resembles both those cities. Actually I would take the liberty of saying that Sao Paulo can perhaps be thought of as a mix of Miami, New York, and Chicago all wrapped up into one. Not even New York or Chicago has as many helicopter taxi flights around their city, shuttling big wig executives around as mighty Sao Paulo does in her city of big shoulders.

The Tropics is defined as that area in which the sun is directly overhead at least one day during the year. The Tropic of Capricorn is south of Rio but north of São Paulo. Rio is tropical, SP is not; Tropic of Cancer is just north of Havana.

Recall that Asian Canadian, do you,? Good memory.

I think the chance of a Hugo Chavez in your future is greater than you think A Brazilian. Just like in Ancient Rome, a Southern European descended elite refuses to reform and this led to the rise of a military man--Caesar--with the poor masses on his side. If civilian governments don't bring about reform and order the poor masses will eventually turn to the Army--and just like in Ancient Rome there is now the fear he (in Venezuela ) is becoming
a dictator. This could be your future too--especially if you continue to treat your brown and black masses like dirt.

I don't really exist A Brazilian. I am your alter ego--the logical common sense side of your brain that speaks to you so as to cancel out the other voice you hear known as A Brazilian--the narrowminded, opinionated, sentimental voice that is constantly in denial about the reality of life in your country. Go ahead, hurl insults at me, call me names--it is simply the battle going on in your own head. But remember, there really is no "American Historian."
Yet I will only go away when you become enlightened.

I have often wondered if scenario in The American Historian´s first paragraph might not just be what is in the works. It´s possible. Other possibilities exist also, naturally.

This sequence of idiotic statements is simply too much. So you make such very deterministic fortune telling based on what? On very vague "parallels" without any regard to surrounding circumstances and contexts? Do you really think whatever happened in Rome is appliable now? Only in the mind of a typical ignorant american Venezuela and Brazil are the same thing, and you still call yourself a "historian".

These were the illogical historical and incomplete "facts" you used to build this stupidity, but, not happy with it, you "crown" this waste of my time with the needed racialized american explanation "if you continue to treat your brown and black masses like dirt". First, nobody is treated like dirt. Second, mixed aren't blacks.

The Tropics is defined as that area in which the sun is directly overhead at least one day during the year. The Tropic of Capricorn is south of Rio but north of São Paulo. Rio is tropical, SP is not; Tropic of Cancer is just north of Havana.

Technicalities, but what he said is still valid. The distance from São Paulo from the tropic is not enough to make the weather to be completely different from the rest of the country, so it is still a "tropical New York".

You are the guy that say "...brazilians that go to the West..." when referring to immigration, as if Brazil were in Asia, and call the United States "America" ignoring the rest of the continent. You are the last person on Earth that should point out geographical facts.

Sao Paulo has a Temperate Climate (Similar to Portugal and Spain) for those that have no knowledge of geography, The American Historian, Torontonian and Ric are correct as usual. Yes A brazilian, lines do exist. You seem to ignore all lines, racial lines, geographical lines, political lines; actually you want to fabricate your own reality. "Technicalities" are the difference between good and bad scholarship. Learn....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...perate.svg

Just like in Ancient Rome, a Southern European descended elite refuses to reform and this led to the rise of a military man--Caesar--with the poor masses on his side. If civilian governments don't bring about reform and order the poor masses will eventually turn to the Army--and just like in Ancient Rome there is now the fear he (in Venezuela ) is becoming
a dictator. This could be your future too--especially if you continue to treat your brown and black masses like dirt.

I agree 100% American Historian

written by Ric, 2007-02-20 15:14:34

The Tropics is defined as that area in which the sun is directly overhead at least one day during the year. The Tropic of Capricorn is south of Rio but north of São Paulo. Rio is tropical, SP is not; Tropic of Cancer is just north of Havana.

Recall that Asian Canadian, do you,? Good memory.

Be that as it may, in common man vernacular Sao Paulo (or even Miami) can be spoken of as "tropical."

This is hilarious! I thought the link you provided would be some temperature data gathered through many years from the locations you cited, but no, it's a simple world map.

According to you Sao Paulo is as temperate as Berlin, just by looking at the lines in the map. Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahah. São Paulo has no snow, and the temperature never goes below 0º C! Canada is in the temperate zone as well! Hahahahahahahahahaha

I repeat what I said, São Paulo is not far enough from the tropic line to make the weather and temperature all that different, being so it's not incorrect to call it "tropical New York". This weekend it was 35ºC there by the way.

I agree 100% American Historian

Now, that's clueless.

Oh man dude, you refuse to accept the lesson that history repeats itself--and this even applies to Brazil. And what do you mean blacks and mixed are not the same? I thought you said Brazilians are all of the same race? You are all over the place my man, that is assuming you are the same A Brazilian and not one of many.

A recent Veja poll clocks in 87% of respondents agreeing with the statement that Brazil is a very racist country.

How, exactly, is this "hiding" racism Mark Wells?

The problem here, as others have already mentioned, isn't that we don't know that we have a problem, it's that we don't seem to be willing or able to do much about it.

What I see when in the Paraiba Valley area of SP is flora and fauna similar to San Diego. The climate and everything. Much different from the NE or Amazon or the far west of Brazil. Semi-tropical.

As for racism, Brazil is what it is. Who cares what anyone says. Surely those who are most likely to be discriminated against should have the final word on that, not academics or ibope people.

A recent Veja poll clocks in 87% of respondents agreeing with the statement that Brazil is a very racist country.

Brazilians don't know what racism is. If they knew anything about all the racial myths and racial culture of the US and Europe, of really taking seriously the Aryan tale plus lots of other pseudo-scientific ways of exclusion (Italians aren't white because are mixed, portuguese aren't white, spanish aren't white, etc) they wouldn't say so.

The first time I saw racism with my own eyes was the first time I went to the US, it's really shocking.

what do you mean blacks and mixed are not the same? I thought you said Brazilians are all of the same race?

Don't try to twist what I said, we are all brazilians. But you seem to single out the "blacks and browns" as if they were one thing in opposition to the rest of the country and that's not true. There's no such groups and they are not the same thing, as in every person is a different person and cannot be treated like cattle.

While it´s true that people shouldn´t be treated like cattle, Abe, you do respond well to prodding.

...
written by Thaddeus Blanchette, 2007-02-20 19:16:08

The problem here, as others have already mentioned, isn't that we don't know that we have a problem, it's that we don't seem to be willing or able to do much about it.

Racism is in the US, not here
written by A brazilian, 2007-02-20 21:08:22

And there ya have it Thaddeus. BTW, 60 kidnappings for a city in a year is hardly newsworthy, eh snizzle? You must live in Sao Paulo capitol, lol, completely desensitized to it already eh?? Or just have never been to a civilized place before?:

...
written by e harmony, 2007-02-20 15:06:44

written by Torontonian, 2007-02-20 13:02:05

Sao Paulo is not "tropical", look at the map.... hahaha Sao Paulo like New York and Chicago... you have no idea of what you are saying...



Sao Paulo has been described as "the Chicago of Latin America" and Sao Paulo is bigger than both New York and Chicago. I've seen videos of Sao Paulo and have been in both Chicago and New York - yes Sao Paulo resembles both those cities. Actually I would take the liberty of saying that Sao Paulo can perhaps be thought of as a mix of Miami, New York, and Chicago all wrapped up into one. Not even New York or Chicago has as many helicopter taxi flights around their city, shuttling big wig executives around as mighty Sao Paulo does in her city of big shoulders.

LMAO!!

I LOVE to hear e harmony talk about brasil, as if he actually has been here. Confirms his delusional state.

Of course they take more helicopters E!! That way they're assured of not getting car-jacked or kidnapped!

...
written by Ric, 2007-02-20 15:14:34

The Tropics is defined as that area in which the sun is directly overhead at least one day during the year. The Tropic of Capricorn is south of Rio but north of São Paulo. Rio is tropical, SP is not; Tropic of Cancer is just north of Havana.

Recall that Asian Canadian, do you,? Good memory.

Once again, lmao!


Well, I'm beginning to get the feeling that our ole friend e harmony isn't american at all, I think she is brazilian, but yet again, I could be wrong.

How someone could tell stories as if they knew a place so well from "asian canadians" they met, or their "uncles, brothers, mother's, friend", and that person dated a brazilian!!!


LOL.....oh to be young, frivilous, and too much time on one's hands.

Hey buddy, what you said regarding blacks and mixed not being the same speaks for itself. I think you need a vacation man. Now go out and samba while Carnival is still in full swing. Maybe you can send E Harmony a plane ticket and he will join you before Hugo Chavez conquers Brazil. If you are lucky, you can become Marc Antony or Augustus to Chavez's Julius Caesar and soon be the new King of Brazil. But the American Historian will still be here as a thorn in your side.

Bo, whose goal in life is apparently to be as unpleasant to as many people as possible, is excited about the fact that an anonymous Brazilian claims here that we have no race problem.

As my original post mentioned, 87% of Brazil claims that we do, according to a recent poll by Veja magazine. This stat has been backed up by plenty of more serious researchers as well. This obviously means that 13% doesn't believe in Brazilian racism. What Bo thinks that a manifestation by one member of this 13% proves is beyond me.

But the whole thing is even more mystifying when Bo is going out of his way, on other threads, trying to "prove" that blackness has some sort of innate linkage to violent street crime.

I mean, why would an American racist be worried about the odd Brazilian idiot who still believes in the myth of racial democracy?

As my original post mentioned, 87% of Brazil claims that we do, according to a recent poll by Veja magazine.

This is due to political correctness. It doesn't mean that those 87% actually have evidences of racism in Brazil. You seem not to understand the difference. Brazil is not racist, and if you don't believe in it then I would suggest you to live some time in the US or Europe.

But the whole thing is even more mystifying when Bo is going out of his way, on other threads, trying to "prove" that blackness has some sort of innate linkage to violent street crime.

Stop putting words in my mouth you piece of human garbage.....treadmarks? Rio is a drag???



You're sick boy.

I have lived in the U.S. and Europe, Brazilian. I'm wondering what, exactly, your definition of "racism" could possibly be for you to claim that it doesn't exist in Brazil...?

I have lived in the U.S. and Europe, Brazilian. I'm wondering what, exactly, your definition of "racism" could possibly be for you to claim that it doesn't exist in Brazil...?

- Clear separation of races and promotion of racial ideals, with stereotypes and values associated with them;
- Belief system with race as one of its main pillars. In the US people really believe in the Aryan myth and tell stories about "what people is what" based on that. Ask any american if italians are white, the answer might surprise you. Another symptom of that is the notion of "purity", for example, a mixed person cannot be considered "white" because it's not "pure". Biologically it's impossible for someone to be pure anything, and there's no such "white" thing, but we are talking here is of a racist society;
- The intolerance with mixed people, labeling them one way or the other depending on what's considered lower in a given society;
- Widespread use of violence with racial motives;
- Segregation, either by law or not, of people, e.g, neighborhoods only for blacks, neighborhoods only for whites, etc;
- Extreme racial activism;

The list goes on. Brazil has none of that. If you actually lived in the places you say you did then you must agree that brazilians live together without concern for such things, and the highly mixed population is evidence of it. We have no violence based on race. Racism is against the law (with the exception of "Raça" magazine, which seems to be above the law).

Brazil is unique regarding that, and I think it should be an example to this world of bigots. A place where a israeli and a lebanese would eat in the same table and don't kill each other. I have seen it.

Forget about "neighborhoods only for blacks, neighborhoods only for whites, etc.", Bob. Brazil took it to a higher level. Here we have entire states for blacks and entire states for whites and entire states for the descendants of native peoples. Not 100%, but overwhelming. Even Compton still has some Anglos, the only place I know that is 100% one category with not one exception is Pitimandeua.

Now I´ll be turning off the computer, latest copy of Raça mag just came in.

Brazil took it to a higher level. Here we have entire states for blacks and entire states for whites and entire states for the descendants of native peoples.

I hope this is joke, a not funny one though.

Abe Razillion
written by Ric, 2007-02-22 18:22:44

Forget about "neighborhoods only for blacks, neighborhoods only for whites, etc.", Bob. Brazil took it to a higher level. Here we have entire states for blacks and entire states for whites and entire states for the descendants of native peoples. Not 100%, but overwhelming.

LMAO....that's not far off the mark!

Right, try to spot the honkie in Manaus. Can´t find him?

Try writing as a literate person. Use real words, not slangs. Then I might answer you.

Now you have done it. You have hurt my feelings. But honkie is a real word. I myself am a honkie. It´s going to take me a little time to get over this. Please just bear with me.

Sorry, Abe
written by Ric, 2007-02-24 19:00:20

Now you have done it. You have hurt my feelings. But honkie is a real word. I myself am a honkie. It´s going to take me a little time to get over this. Please just bear with me.

More denial, just what Brazil needs. No no, there's no racism in brazil. We all live in perfect harmony. In fact I'm sure you step into any business, any government agency, any institution you will find a population proportionate number of blacks alongside all the whites earning decent wages. Yes absolutely. Stand on any street on any given day and count all of the white folks driving cars and compare it with how many black people you see owning their own vehicle. Let's take it further shall we? Let's walk the beaches and count how many black homeless folks seeking shelter under a pile of umbrellas and blankets and compare it with how many white homeless you see doing the same. Yep, no racism in this beautiful country none in sight. We're all of "good appearance" aren't we. Opportunities flowing to each and everyone one of us regardless of the color of our skin. yep no problem here in beautiful Brazil in regards to racial discrimination.

This article is Totally correct.
I am black living in Brazil ....the only thing is I have money.
The other kind of racism is that black people will actually treat a black person in a restaurant or other situation badly. It is as if they (we) are only content to serve a white person. It is as if I am not in my place.
So apart from being badly served by white attendants (for obvious reasons) there are the brainwashed black attendants to put up with.
I still have fun with it though...I love watching their faces black or white when I tip the one person who did a good job the equivalent of 20% of what they earn in a month.

That blacks themselves almost invariably confirm the fact that racial prejudice exists in Brazil. The ones denying it are not those actually being discriminated against.

Your "invariably confirm" is just wishful thinking. There are lots of people saying otherwise, in this very thread and in others. Where did you get this from?

Even a black brazilian woman living in the US telling how YOU ARE racists.

Who´s "we"? ANd if as you affirm, there is no racism in Brazil, that would include myself as well, since I am in Brazil. By your definition, we expat Americans cannot be racist since there is no racism IN BRAZIL. Man, getting some things into your skull would probably take a marreta e talhadeira.

I think that there is racism in America but they are dealing with it. They also have promanent black people in government as well as thousands not so promanent. Bear in mind that America is a country where blacks make up 10%.
In Brazil where blacks make up 50% (admitted) and probably in reality 70% (including the blacks who think they are white) there are hardly any in government or anywhere else promanent.
I would be nowhere if I did not learn English and do business with America... working just here in Brazil I would go nowhere.
But like I said I get my kicks being waited on by poor racist white people ...so I love living here. Think I'm becoming racist too in a funny ironic way.

In Brazil blacks make only 7%, where did you get the 50% picture from?

And, indeed, you are racist. Your comment "blacks that think that are white" was evidence enough of your bigotry. Applying the "one drop rule" too?

Ha HAhahahaa.........93% of the people in Brazil have green or blue eyes and white skin ......I almost fell off my chair.

If you look at the magazine covers in this RACIST country you would think that was true though.
So just stay at home in Brazil for the rest of your life and subscribe to Brazilian magazines and you could fool yourself into believing that was true.
Don't use the internet anymore cause the WORLD knows the truth about Brazil now.

Used to be a guy in the Antelope Valley that really believed in the Flat Earth. Now there´s a web site which pretends to and has a good time with all posters. It´s a spoof.

The 7% figure makes me think that there´s a possiblity that Abe, or Bob, is just putting us on. If so, he´s done a good job of it. He couldn´t be as articulate as he seems to and yet actually believe the 7%.

It seems like there are two different notions of what determines "blackness" going on here: "50%...in reality 70%" seems to fall more in line with the "1 drop rule" that many Americans have (and have been forced/willing to adopt for social, political, and oftentimes survival/"racial solidarity" purposes. Where as the "only 7%" falls in line with the thinking that if you're not "pure black looking" then you're not black. I'm curious to know Davi and A Brazilian how you would define (if possible) blackness, or whiteness for that matter. Are people of mixed ancestry no longer on "race" or the other, or are they both or all at the same time? Having been to Rio for the first time recently (Rio to be exact) what I saw was the following: some people looked just plain ole "white"; some people looked just plain ole "black"; some people looked plain ole indigenous/indian; the general popluation looked like a mixture of two or more (with certain features standing out from one group, but not necessarily enough to justify classifying them as that "race"). I think people should just be free to call themselves whatever they want, WHILE at the same time people should feel free and proud to acknowledge all sides of their heritage without feeling that one race is lower than the other (I find that many people all over the world that have some African heritage are ashamed to acknowledge it because of the stereotypes and general negativity that oftentimes follows blackness).

**Interesting situations I have been in regarding the perceived "racial" make-up of Brasil. (note--I am a darker toned African woman) (a) A Brazilian friend of mine (who is of Italian/European and Syrian/Lebanese heritage) and I met someone, and after my friend told him she was Brazilian, he looked at her quizically and said "Um...aren't you supposed to be her color" (pointing at me)...She was pissed because apparently this happens to her a great deal. (b) I was talking to someone else about blacks in Brazil and something I read about social issues and he looked at me quizically and asked "There are blacks in Brazil?" Hmmmm...you wonder how people arrive at such starkly different images of the same place...

I dunno...what are your thoughts?

The 7% number is the official data from the census. But in Brazil people are free to call themselves whatever they want, and, except in the most obvious cases when the person looks either white or black, there will be gradations since the one point and the other. It's more a matter of how the person looks like.

Davi commits a classic american mistake. He says "70% black" in Brazil because:

1- He made that number up;
2- He is using the american "one drop rule" and the racial mythologies associated with it (such as Aryans, mediterranean people are not whites, etc). American scholars such as Mark Wells use the same rule, the "one drop rule", in order to make the number of blacks to look bigger than they actually are, therefore making Brazil to look like a racist country.

I think brazilians, of all people, are the ones that acknowledge more african heritage than any other (including the USA). Americans just can't see it because they seem to expect compliance with the 19th century racial mythologies with it, rabid public racial speeches, one drop rule, and everything else.

I can't really understand what goes on in americans heads, this looks irrational to me. They seem to give so much importance to race. They live it, they need to acknowledge it, they need to be proud of it (why? what for?), they define themselves by it and divide themselves in groups according to it. It is so limiting.

As an African (Nigerian) raised in Africa I am in an interesting position to see/understand race from two different perspectives. First, as a Nigerian, black really counts for nothing, as most people in Nigeria are black. There, I would say people are divided more so on ethnic/"tribal" levels (my parents are from two different groups that for much of history and only up until recent history have been involved in warfare against each other--kinda shows you that human beings will use the most available obvious difference to divide themselves). My parents, obviously able to put aside or ignore differences never focused on race...they are hip to racial notions in the US and are not ignorant or blind to think that everyone is equal, yet they always taught me not to judge people and to always carry myself in a way that respects myself, shows I have an education, and represent my family well. Secondly, I was raised in an America culture that on one level praises blackness in certain domains: some physical beauty, typically when it comes to the body, musical talent, dancing ability athleticism, social aptitude or "coolness"--so many people all over the world look to black Americans as the icons of what's in...); yet subjugate blacks in other ways or make it difficult (or say it's impossible) for them to excell: education, politics, beauty, some forms of entertainment, etc. In a perfect world, it would be great to not think about race...but the unfortunate truth is that the US (and many places including Brazil) was built upon racial segregation and slavery was one of the earliest institutions of many places. If we give so much importance to race, it's because blacks were put in bondage because of it, are prevented from certain things because of it. Yes the one drop rule was a phenomenum created for political reasons by American whites and blacks were brainwashed by it over generations. Today it serves somehwat of a dual (and opposing purpose). First, it gives fuel to the idea of the purity notion of the white race...but also, it serves as a way to unify a group of people that are for the most part viewed as second class citizens. There is strength in numbers, so therefore, many people, whether "full black" or "half black" or just "a little black" can feel they have a community that understands the negative and positive experiences that are due to the color of their skin or perceived racial heritage. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It's just unfortunate that a group of people feels the need to do such to feel powerful. If blacks define themselves by race, it's only because initially they were defined by it. It's difficult to snap out of hundreds of years of brainwashing. It's heartbreaking.

Blacks need and profess to be proud to be black because America and the world tells us everyday that we're naturally less intelligent, less beautiful, more likely to do this and that...In order to combat the negativity thrown at us all the time, we have to go the complete opposite and try to instill pride in ourselves and people who may look a lot or a little like us. I wish I could walk around everywhere and not be reminded of my race. Sometimes I do...then someone says or does something to remind me of how they look at me, I see (or don't see) something on tv that reminds me how "unimportant" they think I am....While in Brazil, I wanted to see if I could finally not think of race...and for the most part, yes I didn't. But again, there were little reminders here and there, even in the way people complimented me. =(

1 If your eyes aren't black or brown and you don't have brown skin ....you can't be black
2 If you don't have green or blue eyes and light pinkish skin....you can't be white.

Forget the drops of this or that....most people in Brazil have darkish olive skin and brown eyes....that's the reality.

Just by the way ISTOE magazine said 40% black during the election when they tried to racially divide the country in an article where they made it look like it was a vote for inferiority when voting for the present political party. (Which won by a landslide bye the way)

and this Pardo s**t (pardon my French) is equivalent to mixed breed coloured which translates to black in this and other racial sociaties just like the South African (White ) principle which is....... if you're not white you're black. The strangest of all is Japanese are considered white all other Asians black.(Don't ask me how).

This comes from a white South African's mouth raised and bread in one of the most racial countries on the planet where white children are still taught to hate the " evil non white people". I am black Brazilian. A South African friend who is from a racist family taught me all of this.
We meet in bars in South Africa cause he can never take me to his home. I understand.
But even the whites there recognize they have a problem now and they are dealing with it just like America has delt with it and continues to do so.

The problem in Brazil is that the whites won't ADMIT that there is a PROBLEM. ...so how can we ever SOLVE it.

The people won't even admit the correct number of blacks and whites here.
It's not just racism.
The solution to every problem in Brazil is just fix the numbers say some hail Mary's and it will go away.

Go watch Flamengo play Vasco for sure you'll see a hundred thousand people who look like they just came off a boat from Norway pink skin everywhere and so many blue eyes....XuXa everywhere!
Wake up man BRAZIL is BLACK and BEAUTIFUL...we don't need to pretend to be white in order to be great. I know I don't.

No offence to white people but I would not want to be white if given the chance. Really think I would be less lucky with the ladies. hehe

I like who I am .....and better yet I KNOW who I am.

Your mind is broken and you just repeated what I wrote about the "one drop rule" above. You can't see gradations between black and white. So people need to look like norwegians in order to be "white"? Who created this "white" label anyway? This doesn't make sense.

It seems to me that you are proposing the establishment of a racist society a la South Africa, so we would have racism then. This would be the first step. The next step is to fix it? Why to put racism there in the first place? Aren't you just creating something you believe it should have?

Nobody pretends to be white in here, you are obssessed with color. The problem is with you, not with us.

If you learn in the US that you are less intelligent then that's something exclusively from there, the rest of the world doesn't need to pay for their ignorance. I have seen articles on the internet about children being taught the "differences" between races, and some graphs that contained some low IQ numbers for blacks and "hispanics" (according to americans "hispanic" is a race). That sounds very american to me, it seems to be part of their popular culture, but definetely we don't have that in Brazil.

What we see here from many foreigners is to willingness to create the same situation in Brazil. I just don't see why. For you to have an idea I have probably read more about race and written about it here in this website than in my entire life. Simply because we don't talk about it and it's not important to us.

I don't understand how this "fight racism by segregating people into compartments" will work. It seems illogical because the best way of fighting it would be to make them believe they are equals, as we do in Brazil, not different. You highlight the differences, and that's it, wouldn't be good to do the opposite instead?

Part of the brazilian culture is derived from the african one, but it seems to bother some foreigners that we don't put prefixes in front of it like "afro-something" for separating it from the rest, and we don't make speeches about it being something different or special.

Hey...you asked me for my opinion on what Black and White was and I gave it.
You don't have to agree.

So, in your opinion if someone is not shouting to everyone willing to listen the pride for their race, having "race" the same meaning as stated by the scientific racism in the end of the 19th centrury and used by Nazis and other racist groups in the US, then you conclude that the individual is "hiding his race and ashamed of it"?

Haha. American blacks act like caged animals, you were slaves and are slaves still.

I can't see any reason for being proud of anything but my own achievements. We don't want to share your cage, thanks. We are doing pretty well being free.

Being "different" and being "equal" or two different concepts, to me atleast. I can be completely different from you in my belief system, how I look, etc, but I am still equal to you as a human being....or you can have two people who are seemingly similar but who are not treated equally. I don't think there is a problem in highlighting differences, as long as you "equally" highlight similarities. I think there is beauty in difference...I myself love learning about other people's cultures because some aspects are different from the culture of my parents and the culture I was raised in. It's fascinating to me...and I completely engross myself in it...not simply observing from a distance. I want to eat what others eat, try to speak the language they speak with the correct accent, dance the way they do, etc. By learning about the different pieces of the human puzzle, I am able to feel completely human and connected to my fellow human being. The problem occurs when people use differences to create hierarchies and to dominate...or when they try to say that certain group of people are intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually different because they are physically different. I am not pessimistic, but I am afraid that human beings will always find was to divide themselves to create have and have nots. Whether black vs. white, rich vs. poor, light vs. dark, Yoruba vs. Igbo, Christian vs. Muslim...whatever the case may be....we will always find something....that is, until aliens invade the Earth and all human beings gang up on them...hehe

Oh...and Davi--just out of curiosity:
What if you have a dark skin person with stereotypically African facial features , but they have blue/green eyes and naturally straight hair and a more lean/thin frame?
Or a white (pale skin color) person, with tightly curled Afro hair, but stereotypically white European facial features and a more muscular/curvaceous body?
How are they to be classified?

See, when I first learned about all of the terms Brazilians used to classify themselves, I was a little shocked and assumed that for darker skinned or more african/indian looking brazilians, using other terms was a way to avoid identifying themselves in"negro" or "preto" or "indio" because those terms have come to represent something negative or ugly...(exuse me for being a little biased as I am a dark skinned african woman)
If that is not the case, and it's just a way to describe people in a country that has such long history of mixing that people can look like anything, then it's kinda cool. Rather than being forced into one of two or three categories, you have your own or can make up your own as you see fit...***And what's even more crazy though, and what makes me realize that nothing is fixed--everyone sees things differently--you might call yourself one thing, but then 2 or 3 other people may call you something else....Damn, the whole world (yes, even Brazil) needs to just give up trying to classify people....can't we all just be Brazilians, Americans, Nigerians, Germans...whatever...or wow, scarier thought...can't we all just be citizens of planet Earth...hmm hopefully those aliens will come soon because maybe because of them we'll finally get over this race/ethnicity/color/phenotype arguement. It's all still fascinating to me...

Oh, and saying American blacks act like caged animals is a bit harsh...I think the whole country has issues that need to be delt with (just like everywhere else).
And I highly doubt that you're only proud of your own achievements...I'm sure you're proud of the achievements of members of your family, friends, and your country (as I saw when I was there, Brazilians have a lot of national pride). Same as Americans (when we do something good/positive for a change...) It's just that black Americans (and other groups in America) tend to feel pride when others who identify as such excell in general or make some kind of breakthrough in society.

More power to you man. I am just curious, what is your general background (without giving too much information)? I am afraid you might start giving folks heart attacks in your country. Also, have you ever visited the United States?

Hey . I was born in Rio. My father is Brazilian black with brown eyes my mother is Irish white with green eyes.
Thought I'd go into detail based on this way this thing is going.

I've been to New York a few times. I do business with the States. New York is a truely mixed city....beautiful thing to see.

And a mesage to "mistaken for Brazilian in Brazil"
Question: What I would call someone with golden brown skin curves and green eyes
Answer: Darling!

All this radical black Marxist propaganda from the United States to stir up trouble in Brasil, no thanks it isn't wanted or needed.

I want to marry an African Brazilan man and move to Africa. I am a so-called African-American homosexual man.

Most of you fools are brainless. You People love to live in a dream world. Brazil is far from a racial paradsie. Most people down their have now sense of who they are. The s**t i heard is very disturbing. I never knew that people could be so stupid. How can you have dark skin, but lable you self white just because you have money. Having money does not make you white. I see why the America runs the world now--We deal with reality unlike brazilians.The blacks in brazil have been oppressed so bad that defenseless. It is sad that the blacks in the mulattos are so brain washed and blind--I'm just glad I was born in America, because at least blacks here have chance. Brazil is not racial paradise--it is a paradise for expliotation.

IF you have money you're white? (!) Knowning who you are is based on race? (!!) Those americans, man...