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Behind Brazil's Nuclear Dream Is a Perceived Call to Be a Super Power PDF Print E-mail
Written by Alex Sánchez   
Sunday, 28 October 2007 13:07

Brazil's Navy model for a nuclear submarine On July 10, Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva announced his intention to fulfill one of the Brazilian Navy's ultimate dreams: to launch a nuclear-powered submarine. This idea was originally hatched during the era of military rule from the 1960s to 1980s but floundered due to a lack of funds and priority status.

It resurfaced at a time when there are disturbing signs that much of the subcontinent is moving towards an unintentional arms race. Criticism is mounting both within and outside of Brazil regarding whether it would be wise for the nation to go ahead with this plan, and what does this say about the Lula presidency.

Will it deed itself over to engaging in rhetorical vertigo about becoming one of the world's dominant sea powers, rather than decide to come forth with a serious plan that it intends to implement a naval expansion program that will not break the bank and not ignite an arms race. .

As the international community tries to blunt North Korea's and Iran's nuclear ambitions, Brazil (long rumored to be ready in its campaign to fight an all-embracing effort to obtain a permanent seat on the United Nations' Security Council), has put forth a plan to construct a nuclear-powered submarine by 2015.

What is surprising about this situation is that Brazil's apparent decision could risk having a highly probable destabilizing impact on the hemisphere because it doesn't factor in the grave consequences it could generate.

Brazil's Nuclear History

The genesis of Brazil's nuclear ambitions can be traced back to the 1960s, a time when military governments were a hemispheric plague, with the South American giant being, if anything, a pathfinder for this process.

Nevertheless, the Brazilian military junta that ruled from 1964-1985 never managed to nurture concrete plans to construct this super category of sophisticated weapons. According to one AP story, the navy's nuclear program, which actually had begun in 1979, already had mastered part of the uranium enrichment process, but it had lagged in developing and constructing a reactor entirely from Brazilian technology, said Navy Admiral Julio Soares de Moura Neto.

According to a July filing by Deutsch Presse-Agentur, the nuclear submarine project was part of a 1975 agreement between Brasília and the then Western German government in Bonn.

Meanwhile, it should be noted that, in a recent article, the Latin American Weekly Report acknowledged that Brazil has been found to be far behind other regional countries in terms of economic support for its armed forces: "Brazil's armed forces are now far behind, by any aspect of comparison apart from troop numbers, the armed forces of Chile, Peru, and Venezuela."

This begs the obvious question regarding what will happen to the country's citizens if Lula decides to allocate the country's economic resources more toward the country's military operations and away from the people's direct social welfare needs.

During the period of military rule, Brazil's neighbor Argentina (if anything, under an even more Draconian military regime), was also heatedly developing a nuclear program at its remote facility near Bariloche, Argentina.

A Spring 1981 Foreign Affairs article by Gerard Smith (Chief of the U.S. Delegation to the Strategic Arms Limitations Talks (SALT) from 1969 to 1972) and George Rathjens (a Professor of Political Science at MIT) discussed nuclear non proliferation, touching on Latin America.

The article mentions the Brazilian-Argentine nuclear arms race which was thought to exist at the time, explaining that "despite U.S. pressures and the expenditure of considerable political capital, the Federal Republic of Germany insisted on going ahead with its previous commitments to assist Brazil in acquiring reprocessing and enrichment facilities. And the FRG and Switzerland have recently agreed to provide Argentina with a power reactor and a heavy-water plant."

Ironically, Lula protested the construction of the nuclear submarine during the military regime, at a time when he was a fiery union leader with solid leftist credentials, protesting that the country had more important needs for its citizens than something so expensive. It seems now Lula, along with new obsessions, has had a dramatic change of heart.

Lula Revives Nuclear Plans

To the surprise of only a few, whose knowledge of Lula's value system was formed in the past and who now see him as a parody of the system to which he once so passionately subscribed, the Brazilian leader is a pro-nuke submarine enthusiast, who now emphasizes his intention to pursue his military predecessors' nuclear ambitions.

He plans to have the submarine operating by 2015. A July 11 wire story by Agence France Presse quotes the Brazilian president as saying during a visit to the Brazilian navy's Technological Center in São Paulo, "Brazil could rank among those few nations in the world with a command of uranium enrichment technology, and I think we will be more highly valued as a nation - as the power we wish to be."

In essence, the new Brazil that Lula ululates over has a different kind of author with a vastly different script than the one he once daily authored as the leader of the metallurgical union in the São Paulo industrial belt.

Lula's references raise several very tantalizing questions about the nuclear submarine project. Among them are: will it be constructed solely by Brazilian scientists and technicians? Or will scientists by recruited from abroad as consultants?

Does the Brazilian navy possess the necessary skill to design, construct, test and operate a vessel which goes far beyond the admirable design and construction technology capacity it has evinced up to now, even after factoring in all of its engineering successes and its commercial triumphs in the fields of aircraft and weaponry fabrication?

Will the crew be sent abroad to gain training on how to operate this kind of super-sophisticated equipment? What kind of design principles will the submarine feature? Will it be a replication of another country's nuclear submarines or will it be a totally new design?

While Lula is jaunty, other Brazilians are desperate, according to daily O Estado de São Paulo, as cited by the Latin American Weekly Report: "'For a long time the government has abandoned the armed forces to its own luck, in a display of disinterest in national defense and the way of life of Brazilians.'

The newspaper goes on to say that the pitiable situation of Brazil's armed forces 'does not match the ambitions' of President Lula da Silva to lead South America in an 'increasingly instable regional strategic environment.'"

O Estado zeroes in on musings now taking place in the Brazilian armed forces: "Two-thirds of the air force's planes are grounded due to lack of replacement parts. The air force does not have any medium-range-to-air and air-to-ground missiles, attack helicopters or the so-called 'intelligent bombs' which are part of the equipment of its Chilean, Peruvian and Venezuelan counterparts.

Furthermore, only half of the navy's combat ships are fit for their intended purpose. In the army the situation is no different. There is no money for ammunition, Brazilian tanks are all secondhand and most over 30 years old." Does this sound like a country that could spend almost a billion dollars on nuclear submarine project?

Nuclear Power for Several Applications

The Brazilian president also is saying that his government will complete the long-suspended Angra III nuclear plant in Rio de Janeiro state. "We will complete Angra III, and if necessary, we'll go on to build more (nuclear plants) because it is clean energy and now proven to be safe," Lula ebulliently noted.

The plant will cost 3.5 billion dollars over five and a half years, he said. But he did not mention the nuclear waste disposal issue which has been deviled Washington in recent years and still defies easy solution, as seen in the Feral Yucca Mountain debate.

Going Nuclear All the Way

A June article by Nuclear Engineering International explains that Brazil has always strived for self-sufficiency in nuclear power, but the ambitious plans of the 1970s were never fully realized, leaving Brazil with just Angra I & II and the equipment and technical skills required for a third, all sited at Angra Dos Reis in Rio de Janeiro state.

The construction of Angra III was originally contracted out to the German firm KraftwerkUnion (KWU), now part of Siemens, which was taken over by Framatome ANP (now Areva). At the end of 2001, Brazil's National Energy Policy Council (CNPE) was asked to make recommendations on Angra III and authorized preliminary steps to restart the project, with Lula ultimately deciding to go ahead with it.

Brazil's two operating nuclear plants, Angra I and Angra II, have an installed capacity of about 2,000 megawatts. Angra III would raise its capacity to 3,300 megawatts, at an estimated cost of about US$ 3.6 billion. According to several costing engineers, they would be surprised if the plant construction didn't come in at least 50% higher than the current estimated figure, with the same being true of the projected costs for the submarine.

An October 2004 article in Science by Liz Palmer, entitled "Brazil's Nuclear Puzzle" reported that in 2004 Brazil had plans for a uranium enrichment plant, which, it if configured to do so, could fuel several nuclear weapons annually. It went on to explain that "Brazil has pledged to enrich its uranium to only 3.5% 235U, the concentration required by its two power reactors. This would be too weak to fuel a bomb, which typically requires a concentration of 90% or above.

If Brazil should change its mind, its stockpile of uranium already enriched to 3.5 or 5% will have received more than half the work needed to bring it to weapon grade. This would confer what is known as "breakout capability" - the power to make nuclear weapons before the world can react, rendering it a fait accompli. Such a capacity is what the United States and some European countries fear Iran is aiming at."

While it is true that Brazil wants to build a nuclear submarine, not a nuclear weapon, the feeling remains about Brazil's potential to become a global nuclear power incrementally, if it chose to do so at all. It certainly has the resources and the personnel to carry out nuclear projects, and if you take Lula's words to heart, he also seems to have the will.

But most of the most source of energy currently fueling Brazil's nuclear dream does not derive from nuclear fission as much as it comes from Brazil's growing sense of ultimate grandeur - that it is destined to be a super power this century.

And who is the amiable Jingoist stoking the line of "über alles"-well, no other than Lula. Yet there is still another chapter to the Brazilian story, and that consists of the corruption that infuses the nation's public life, the inefficiency, the hypocrisy, the environment chicanery and the unspeakable violence of both the street criminals and their prosecutors, and the drug-trafficking Mafia that renders Brazil a hellish state in which to reside, if you are not well to do and strategically positioned.

Interestingly, on June 8 there was an article in the International Herald Tribune about the Russian nuclear power company, Atomstroyexport (a former branch of the Soviet atomic energy ministry) and how Russia is becoming an important exporter of nuclear energy and engineering skills.

The article explains how the company is currently constructing reactors in countries like China, India and Bulgaria. The core of the article is based on declarations by Sergei Shmatko, chief executive of Atomstroyexport. The business executive speaks of a "nuclear renaissance," with Moscow emerging as a global exporter of nuclear technology for developing nations.

He added that his company is already producing a new design for emerging markets; it has a line of mini-reactors more typical of the power plants required for nuclear submarines or ice breakers, then ostensibly for nuclear power plants. Moscow already has proven that it has very few qualms about exporting military technology, as exemplified by the multi-billion dollar deals with Venezuela over the past couple of years, even though it hasn't quite overtaken the U.S. as a world leader in the export of weaponry.

It is only logical to assume that the Kremlin would be more than willing to provide a nuclear reactor to Brazil for its nuclear submarine if it has the money for it. And, as Lula boasts, Brazil has the cash, even though his admirers and generals claim that only penury is to be found in the Palácio da Alvorada.

A Nuclear Brazil: Is this Wise?

Lula appears to be resorting to the traditional waving the "bloody flag of nationalism" in order to increase his personal popularity and confirm the support of the nation's powerful military establishment, although all is not sound here, and his placating is probably doomed to not be enough. This call to arms comes at a time when his administration was sent reeling by almost daily corruption scandals in his political party and his administration.

In the latest round of nationwide discontent, landless workers blocked an iron ore railway (with ore being a key ingredient for the production of steel) owned by Companhia Vale do Rio Doce SA. The company claims only 300 individuals protested, while the Landless Workers Movement insists they were as many as 2,600, according to the Associated Press.

Lula's critics insist that, instead of allocating hundreds of millions of dollars to a nuclear submarine program, why not address the multiple social problems pressing Brazil. These include environmental and anti-poverty initiatives to constructively impact Brazil's current social ills.

Instead, Lula has decided to turn to acquiring a trophy military weapon that couldn't be less relevant to Brazil's future as a great nation and Latin America's current concerns. But this is unwise and will only further provoke regional tensions.

Among others, one must wonder what will be the reaction in Buenos Aires, with an Argentine military still nursing its wounds over its defeat in the Falklands. If Brazil's nuclear submarine actually becomes operational, might this immediately invoke the concerns of the Argentine navy?

One might reply that during the Falkland War with Britain, the Argentine cruiser ARA General Belgrano was doomed by the U.K.'s nuclear-powered submarine, HMS Conqueror. The Belgrano was the second largest ship in the Argentine navy at the time and was sunk by two Tigerfish torpedoes from the Conqueror, killing 323 sailors.

This was a critical point in the war as it proved to the Argentine navy that it could not compete against the British fleet, including its nuclear submarine. What will the Argentine navy have to say about Brazil obtaining a nuclear submarine of its own?

Finally, it is still illogical that Brazil even thinks for a moment that it must have its submarine. The sub-continent, in spite of the arms race it has experienced in recent years, has not had an inter-state war since the Peruvian-Ecuadorian border conflict in 1941.

Brazil itself fought a war against Argentina in the 1820s when Argentina was known as the United Provinces of Rio de la Plata. The last armed conflict (not counting its involvement in World War II) in which Brazil fought was the War of the Triple Alliance when Brazil allied itself with Uruguay and Argentina against Paraguay from 1864 to 1870.

If anything, Brazil's security threats today come from drug cartels, the possible infiltration of the Colombian guerrillas known as the FARC into its territory, and the widespread occurrence of gang violence, and not from Argentina or Paraguay (a landlocked border country)

Military Politics

By deciding to build a nuclear submarine, Lula is reviving the old dreams of the Brazilian military. At the same time, he has certainly given reason to the Argentine navy to push for even a bigger defense budget at a time when the country is still recuperating from the 2001 economic meltdown.

Both the Brazilian and Argentine security forces have dark pasts that have sullied their countries' good names. The possession of a nuclear submarine would provide both militaries with an increased status that would be prejudicial to their still not completely stabilized democracies and would allow them to question their subordination to the civilian government.

It is ironic that Lula has declared his intention to build a nuclear submarine. While he was a union leader before becoming president, Lula had protested against such nuclear aspirations, but it seems he has now had a change of heart. Why has this occurred? Can this be explained by the growing pressure coming towards Lula from the country's military that never has quite regained the prestige that it had when it ruled the country with an absolutist style?

According to a report by the Deutsche Presse-Agentur, Lula has emphasized repeatedly that he sees the use of nuclear power as a source of energy as a bread and butter issue for his administration, and that down the road such power will be essential to meet the country's energy requirements; according to estimates, building the nuclear submarine will cost an annual disbursement of 68 million dollars over eight years, so it will be ready (ideally) not before 2015.

Curiously, the aspiration to acquire a nuclear submarine comes at a time when the Brazilian military is going through a process of upgrading. During a September trip to Spain, in spite of the obvious disenchantment with many of his senior military colleagues over the poor condition in which the Brazilian military finds itself, Lula told the Spanish daily El País "in the 1970s, we had modern factories that built tanks [...] But they have been dismantled. Brazil must return to what it had. To rebuild our weaponry factories, we must buy."

According to various reports, Brazil plans to raise military spending by 50% next year and is planning to modernize its submarines, build missiles in cooperation with South Africa and purchase second-hand aircraft.

Logically, Lula has the enthusiastic backing of the Brazilian military establishment for his drive to upgrade the military. But this is not necessarily the case. On October 13, there was an article in the Brazilian daily Correio Braziliense, regarding Brazil's military, which included declarations by General Barros Moreira, a former commander of the War College (Brazil's military intelligence service) and who currently serves as head of the Political, Strategic and International Relations Secretariat at the Defense Ministry.

On the question of the nuclear submarine, General Moreira declared: "What is going to happen to a country where 95% of international trade takes place by sea? And our oil, where is it? If we had a nuclear submarine, we would be more secure. If the Argentine navy had had a nuclear submarine, England would not have attacked during the Falklands conflict. A peaceful country such as ours, that has no intention of attacking anyone, has every right to defend itself, because it is growing increasingly richer and more tempting."

Of course, it remains somewhat obscure as to which country, if any, would be inclined to attack Brazil for its resources.

Opponents of the nuclear submarine and the nuclear plant programs include Lula's Environment Minister Marina Silva. The minister declared that "in the last 15 years, no country has built nuclear power plants because of the problems with the waste [...] We have other sources of power: a great potential in hydroelectric, and clean energies in which we should invest."

In addition, the construction of the Angra 3 power plant is potentially dangerous because it is located in the state of Rio de Janeiro, near a natural reserve, where the soil is unstable and has included a history of landslides.

Angra already was a subject of considerable controversy because of a flawed geological survey which was originally done on the site, which did not include fault problems that should have been ventilated in public discussion. Lula has ruled out solar or wind plants, arguing that they are more expensive than a nuclear plant.

Taking the Arms Race to the Next Level

Brazil's renewed coveting of a nuclear submarine comes at a time when the sub-region is already moving towards an arms race. Among other regional countries, Venezuela and Chile are engaged in major military purchases. Most recently, Venezuela has ordered the purchase of five Kilo-636 submarines from Russia.

Peru has contracted a number of naval purchases a couple of years ago during the Alejandro Toledo administration, including the purchase of four Lupo-class frigates from Italy. Last year, Bolivian president Evo Morales declared his plans to build a number of military outposts, with Venezuela's help to parallel Bolivia's borders, including one facing its border with Brazil.

It is unlikely that other countries, including Argentina, will not feel compelled to follow suit at some point in the near future as a result of pressure coming from its own armed forces

With Brazil's neighbors now interested on increasing their military capability, Brasília arms specialists claim that the country has adopted a posture on its prospective acquisition of a nuclear submarine that, from a strategic point of view, would give it a definite advantage over potential attackers when it comes to naval warfare, even though the strategy is somewhat provocative.

An additional issue regarding Brazil's nuclear submarine has to do with the de facto violation of the spirit, or even the letter of the Treaty of Tlatelolco. Signed in 1967 and entered into force in 1969, the Treaty was drafted in Mexico City to make Latin America and the Caribbean into a nuclear-free zone. Brazil is also a signatory of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. It seems clear that obligations to these treaty regimes would seem to prevent some problem for Lula's ambitious plans to significantly upscale the navy.

And Washington's Reaction Is....

At a time when the drums of war are beating regarding Washington's tough stand against Iran's nuclear ambitions, and while negotiations continue with North Korea, how will Washington policy makers react to Brazil possessing a nuclear-powered submarine?

In 1991, Presidents Fernando Collor of Brazil and Carlos Menem of Argentina signed an accord with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in Vienna that provided for IAEA inspection of their respective nuclear programs.

At the time, the U.S. State Department praised the decision by both leaders, by issuing a statement issued on December 13, 1991 saying that: "The two South American presidents have demonstrated exceptional statesmanship in moving to free their continent from the risk of nuclear weapons proliferation." What will the State Department say now?

Other institutions that have yet to declare themselves about Brazil's plans include the United Nations' International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and the Agency for the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons in Latin America and the Caribbean (OPANAL), based in Mexico City.

Also of note, the other members of the India-Brazil-South Africa Dialogue Forum (IBSA) (who have or have had nuclear ambitions of their own in the past and present), one of the newest cross-continental alliances, has yet to play a large role in the process or come out conclusively for or against Brazil's nuclear plans.

The Nuclear Nightmare

It could be persuasively argued that Brazil's proposed nuclear submarine is an imprudent foreign policy move for Brazil to take. Conventional weaponry, in addition to the country's geography, which features broad land buffers, should serve, as they have in the past, as a sufficient deterrent to dissuade other countries from attacking Brazil under any conceivable scenario.

Some unkind soul might even accuse Lula of engaging in a good deal of hypocrisy for considering to carry out the plans that basically echo the aspirations of the military junta which was responsible for numerous human rights abuses when it held power and which Lula himself once fiercely opposed.

Brazil is regionally and globally respected and would be the natural Latin America representative in the UN Security Council should it ever be reformed and expanded. In addition it is presently besieged by a host of domestic problems, including widespread criminal violence and drug trafficking, aside from increasing gang warfare.

This analysis was prepared by COHA Research Fellow Alex Sánchez. The Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA) - www.coha.org - is a think tank established in 1975 to discuss and promote inter-American relationship. Email: This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .

Comments (157)Add Comment
This idea was originally hatched
written by aes, October 28, 2007
Hatched is a good word for the idea. Brazil cannot maintain its roads. Brazil does not need a nuclear (singular) submarine. Better a hundred fighter aircraft. Brazil needs to become wealthy enough that it can buy whatever hardware it has need of. "

Brazil could rank among those few nations in the world with a command of uranium enrichment technology, and I think we will be more highly valued as a nation - as the power we wish to be."

Brazil's 'value as a nation' is not predicated upon a 'command of uranium enrichment technology.'

Just when you think everything is moving rationally along up pops the Jack In The Box. "Oh yes we have no bananas we have no bananas today." Lets spend a billion dollars on a nuclear submarine and let the Favelas eat cake.
did not we go over this 2 months ago
written by forrest allen brown, October 28, 2007
with the country to the south having the french missel that can kill almost any ship in the ocean
sub just another target , be better off trying to make surfaces ships run on bio desel or ethonal
as right now brasil cant even keep fuel in its tanks for its ships they have now ,

look at it this way you could go buy an old sovet sub for a little of nothing they have 85 right now
shoved up on the beach , as they cant afford to keep them running eather .

and another that dick head capt kleber persick of the naval brasil was a submarine captian
remember he lied and took the roamdeep saying i abandon it when i was deported
just what i would want to have out with a nuke sub .

what are they going to shoot log torpodes carved from the trees of the amazon forest
is lula going to be the first eneginer as he has a degree in that field .

shelly want to sing up on the good ship FUBAR
Brazil and Nuclear Weapons
written by Ricardo Amaral, October 28, 2007
The horse is out of the barn and there are people who does not understand that – besides even starving North Korea has developed nuclear technology ( a country with a total population of the Great Sao Paulo).

As the above article implied Brazilians are too dumb and incompetent to develop that kind of technology.

Here are the articles about Brazil and Nuclear Weapons that the Brazilian people should be reading instead of the above bunch of non-sense:


May 2002 – “We Need the Bomb – Part I”

http://www.brazzil.com/content/view/2575/38/


February 2003 – “We Need the Bomb – Part II”

http://www.brazzil.com/content/view/2186/27/


June 2003 – “Food for Nukes the Answer for Brazil”

http://brazzil.com/p104jun03.htm


Note: Thousands and thousands of people around the world it did read my articles regarding Brazil and nuclear weapons.

.
What you should know about the source of this article
written by Ricardo Amaral, October 28, 2007
Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA) is a Washington, D.C. based (NGO) founded in 1975, with the goal of promoting awareness of hemispheric issues and encouraging the formulation of rational political and economic U.S. policies towards the region.

COHA is dedicated to monitoring Latin American affairs, especially within the context of U.S. foreign policy and its effect on the region.

Since the one of the goals of US foreign policy it is to stop nuclear proliferation, and COHA is dedicated to monitoring countries such as Brazil especially within the context of keeping Brazil away from developing nuclear technology.

At least the readers should understand the purpose and the point of view of the above article – to keep Brazil away from nuclear technology.

.
Forrest
written by João da Silva, October 28, 2007
is lula going to be the first eneginer as he has a degree in that field .


Why not, Admiral? He is quite versatile. A specialist/genarlist
AR not too dumb just crazy to think you need one
written by forrest allen brown, October 28, 2007
but again
who is the most dangeros the one with the match
or the one with the gallon of gas.

took around brasil , do you see any thought to maintence on a grand scale
buildings , ships ,dams ,sewers,water plants, airports to name a few

build your nuke power plants , and see if you can take care of them in the long term .
that in itself would help the people of brasil .

just think RA a power plant on ever river in brasil
brasil could sell ele power to every country in south amercia not good enough for you .
then it would help the people of brasil
the price for one nuke sub would be a bit over 1 billion just in R&D
then who and where will the hull be built ?
where will the chamber for the recator come from ?
where to buy the fuel rods ?
where to dispose of the spent rods ?
where would the crew be trained and by whom?
where to dock it and the suport ships?

as far as lula joao
he is an exspirt
by my thinking
a formor drip under presure

The growing military power of Brazil.
written by Ricardo Amaral, October 29, 2007
With a show of force like that – no wonder the United States has started worrying about the growing military power of Brazil.

And these Brazilian government budget figures do not include the power of the native Brazilian Indians and their projectile weapons the: bow and arrows.


Military spending for 2008:

Brazil = $ 5 billion dollars.

United States = over $ 600 billion dollars.


I remember watching CNN news with Lou Dobbs and they looked hysterical to me when they were talking about the massive increase in defense spending from China (the official number is around $ 30 billion dollars and some people estimates that the real number is around $ 50 to $ 60 billion dollars per year) – and the alarming subject of that night was the fleet of nuclear submarines that China was building.

After watching that alarming report for 5 minutes finally they mentioned that China was in the process of building it’s first nuclear powered submarine.

The Chinese had one sub and these guys were in Panic.

Then I realized why the United States Panic – if the Chinese have only one submarine then they should build that submarine to look as a replica of any nuclear powered sub of the US – The US would think that it is one of their subs and they would not try to destroy that sub.

On the other hand the Chinese can destroy any other sub that look like them and they would know it is a submarine of their enemy since that submarine is the only one they have.

Now I started understanding the logic of building just one nuclear submarine – as long as your submarine looks just like the sub of your potential enemy – all you need is one nuclear sub for that one big attack.


*****


“Brazil boosts military spending more than 50 percent”
From correspondents in Brasilia
NEWS.com.au - October 29, 2007 11:56am

BRAZIL has announced it plans to boost its military spending by more than 50 percent in 2008, to around US$5 billion ($5.4 billion), and draw up a new defense plan, but told its neighbors they should not worry.

"Brazil has well established, peaceful relations with all South American nations ... one of our political priorities is economic and structural integration of the region ... (and in 200smilies/cool.gif we'll also be strenghtening our military links," Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, said in a public speech.

Brazil, he added, cannot "neglect its defense. Therefore, we will increase our budget outlays and investment in the army, navy and air force by more than 50 percent".

He also said Brazil "is elaborating a national strategy defense plan that will determine each military branch's mission and the equipment it needs for its activities".

Mr Jobin said the military equipment envisioned in the plan includes new fighter jets.
Brazil in 2002 mothballed military programs to buy 12 fighther jets worth around four billion dollar, and build a nuclear submarine over 10 years for a total cost of 1.3 billion dollars. These programs could be relaunched in 2008.

According to official figures made public on Sunday, Brazil has requested in its 2008 budget proposal to Congress some $5 billion for its military forces, with the possibility of raising it to $5.64 billion.

In 2007, Brazil's military budget was around $3.5 billion.

Source: http://www.news.com.au/story/0...9,00.html



.
correction
written by Ricardo Amaral, October 29, 2007
I remember watching CNN news with Lou Dobbs a few months back......
AR
written by forrrest allen brown, October 29, 2007
I can tell by your coments you know nothing about sub warefare .
all boats have a finger print and if one shows up that is not in the computer it is a target .
so just building one that looks like the US boats wont cut it by any means .it would have to sound like one of ours
and give off its rec signal

if you remember sound travevls 24 times faster under water and right now the US can here 200 miles under water quite well
even to the point if close enough can here people talking inside there boats

like i tell every body the hull of the boat is cheep its the guts that run the money up on U boats and all others for that fact .
do a nuke surface boat first as a test bed then go to a U boat
but still cheeper to by old rusian boat

subs are long black and full of seamen
just what brasil wants to give the world
Reply to Forreste Allen Brown
written by Ricardo Amaral, October 30, 2007
I know that the nuclear subs usually have good communications with the other ships and so on…But more than once their systems have failed them since they are prone to surface from under other’s people boats, and ships – I can recall that they did that at least twice in the last few years.

When I wrote my posting about the one nuclear sub navy came to mind a movie that I saw many years ago - “The Mouse That Roared” – One of Peter Sellers' best performances on his movie career.

The hilarious story of how the Duchy of Grand Fenwick waged war on the U.S. – and won. An impoverished backward nation declares a war on the United States of America, hoping to lose.

The Duchy of Grand Fenwick decides that the only way to get out of their economic woes is to declare war on the United States, lose and accept foreign aid. They send an invasion force to New York (armed with longbows) which arrives during a nuclear drill that has cleared the streets. Wandering about to find someone to surrender to, they discover a scientist with a special ultimate weapon that can destroy the Earth. When they capture him and his bomb they are faced with a new possibility: What do you do when you win a war?

Unfortunately, they forget to tell Peter Sellers, as Tully Bascombe, commander of their mediaeval army. This honourable man does his best for his country and through a series of unbelievable circumstances (well, this is a comedy) to win. Now, who has to give aid to whom?

.
Forrest
written by João da Silva, October 30, 2007
as far as lula joao
he is an exspirt
by my thinking
a formor drip under presure


Your thinking is 100% correct Adml! But, I think we want to build the sub to protect ourselves from your beloved friend H.Chavez.

It is a brilliant strategic move by our government. Dont you think so? smilies/wink.gif
chaves will only try to come by land
written by forrrest allen brown, October 30, 2007
think how long it would take the brasilian army to show force
in the north of the amazon and if he was smart the would do it about world cup or about t dec 20 .
money would be best spent with rotor wing aircraft from gun ships to CH 53 or 46
along with the warthogg A10
thies would be best for a jungle warfare with no front line .
you could also count on the Coulmbians for help and the US.

AR while subs have had a few FUBARS in the past unless you have the wepons too use it the right way
it is just an expinsive target.

fast mobile attic boats si the new way of local warefare
Brazil X Venezuela
written by Ricardo Amaral, October 31, 2007
Your posting about Hugo Chavez attacking Brazil it is silly and ridiculous.

The only fight we expect to have against Venezuela in the coming years it is in the soccer field during the qualifying games for the next world cup.

.
you think so
written by forrrest allen brown, October 31, 2007
how long have they been fighting with coulmbia over land .
so they want to have a sub for boliva ?

one nuke sub does not project power thoes days are gone with the A bomb

use the money and energy to do something uesful
feed the people,build a better city service , schools that teach the poor . hospitals ,

a jail for crooked cops ,politicans ,military personal

power is free to know you dont have to go to war .
wars are fought by men to afraid not fight or too
proud to admit they were wrong ,
whitch is imposible for a brasilian to say
...
written by aes, October 31, 2007
Let us say that the 'Peoples Army' of Chavez, the landless poor begin the Marxian march to the redistribution of wealth, annexation and appropriation throughout the entirety of South America. That is his avowed raison d'etre. First Venezuela then the world. He is the Mousallini of Latin America. El Duce incarnate. How many of the tens of millions of 'have nots' might lock-step to this novo Latin American facism? Marching to the drumbeat of the promise of justice and economic equality. "Down with the rich, up with the poor." Is this not Chaves' cry? It is always good to have a prepared well equipped Brazilian military. A military of free Brazilian citizen soldiers. Chavez bodes a free democratic Brazillian market no good.
...
written by João da Silva, October 31, 2007
He is the Mousallini of Latin America.


The right spelling is Mouse O'Linni. Must be of Irish Origin smilies/wink.gif
And what about a Brazilian sub-marine powered....
written by ch.c., October 31, 2007
....with ethanol ?

This should be more competitive and more eco friendly...as Bin Lulily says !

Isnt it ? smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/grin.gif
谢谢你 Joao
written by aes, October 31, 2007
Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini Mussolini
To Ricardo !
written by ch.c., October 31, 2007
You forgot to mention your great ideas....published here not long ago !
May be you should include that China should also invest in the Brazilian sub-marine.
In exchange you could deliver ethanol to China.
Is ethanol not the cheapest fuel on earth.....these days ????? As per Brazilian views and spreadsheets...of course !!!!

smilies/cheesy.gif smilies/grin.gif
...
written by ch.c., October 31, 2007
about your 1 sub marine............. fairy tale.

Not 2 sub marines in the world generate the same noise and vibrations from their propellers, even if they are "apparently" identical and built from the same manuifacturer. Therefore even more different if not built by the same manufacturer.
The noise and vibration of each sub marine is like finger prints. None are exactly equal.

And with the exisiting technology, you can hear a sub marine, tens of miles away !
That is why when the first sub marine hear the other, the first one will stop the turbines/reactors, to stop their propellers noise and vibrations.

SIMPLE


Sorry !
missing part....
written by ch.c., October 31, 2007
That is why when the first sub marine hear the other, the first one will stop the turbines/reactors, to stop their propellers noise and vibrations...in the hope.... the other did not hear yet the first one.

You can also hear sub marine using airplanes.

And everyone has a library of the specific noise and vibrations of ALL AND EVERY sub marines they have pinpointed once in the past.

Feel free to check my statement with any sub marine sailor/officer/engineeer you wish !
ask this to a US sailor
written by forrest allen brown, October 31, 2007
durnig the cold war the US would from time to time make there
subs and surface ships sound different just too make the russians think there was another new boat out there .

and then there was the russian satlight set to watch the aircraft carrier groups
on some cold and wet nights with cloud cover they would shut down all eletronics
go full speed ahead off in a drection of choice and the russians would have to spend time and money to try to find them again

save your money for the new
BOVILER
Reply to Ch.c
written by Ricardo Amaral, November 01, 2007
My plan is for the economic development of Brazil, which would be very beneficial to millions of Brazilians and the Brazilian economy.

Besides China is already pissing away 100’s of billions of US dollars by supporting the United States adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. Talking about a good investment choice – investments that go up in smoke – US$ 1.2 trillion and no end in sight.

The positive side of this type of Chinese investment in US dollar it’s that the Chinese will be able to Wallpaper every room of every house in Asia with US$ 100 bills – I just hope that they like the color green.

By the way, when you hear the term “the green revolution” that is not what people are implying by that term.

.
Reply to CH.c
written by Ricardo Amaral, November 01, 2007
By the way, the $ 1.2 trillion dollars of US dollar investments are not just going up in smoke in Iraq and Afghanistan – I hope you don’t forget that China has invested in the disappearing US dollar – just look what happened to the value of the US dollar against the major currencies of the world in the last five years as China was pilling up all these dollar bills.

Great Chinese investment $ 1.2 trillion dollars = going up in smoke and melting in value.

Instead of making a solid and sound investment in Brazil as per my plan – China is being taken for a ride by the US – their investments are going up in smoke and melting like ice.

.
Reply to CH.c
written by Ricardo Amaral, November 01, 2007
The other thing that you have to keep in mind is that China will continue throwing is hard earned money in the money pit – and by 2010 China should have invested in the United States around US$ 2 trillion dollars.

And that would be enough for the Chinese to be able to Wallpaper every room of every house in Asia and also in Africa, South America, Australia, and many other places around the world with US$ 100 bills.

China will become the biggest house decorator in the world by 2010.

.
the china ballon will burst
written by forrrest allen brown, November 01, 2007
it is the big bang theroy all over again
it will come to a halt when the world stops buying
cheep throw away chinese made items look at the things that are slowing down

sales are off at houbor freight , boat sales , steel , is of poor grade .
all paint and toys contain lead , stuffed dolls and other toys are filled with
very flamable matriel .cars couuld be only sold in china and some 4 world countries , the motor cycle and 4 wheeler are outlawed in most countries .

let them paper the walls in US money ,
invest in the sosity they most admire but cant change for lack of control
of a population in the billions under there present laws they have control
under a socity like the US they would loose control less tax payers , less money
smaller army less control.

by the way i talked to a buddie in the off angle building
brasil is about as much on the minds of military planners as
the island of Tonga

buy your sub from the coulmbian drug dealers save you some money
Reply to CH.c
written by Ricardo Amaral, November 01, 2007
The last few years China has been financing the United States was in Iraq and Afghanistan plus a double up in defense spending since the Bill Clinton administration left town in January of 2001.

During the Bush administrations’ 8 years reign they spent over $ 2 trillion US dollars in defense spending – with the compliments of foreign investors such as Japan, China and some other countries. China alone contributed so far US$ 1.2 trillion to the fiasco. And China will continue lending the money as if there is no tomorrow and by 2010 China probably would have put most of its eggs into one basket to the tune of US$ 2 trillion dollars. A real sad story if you asked me.

During the revolutionary wars there was one country that financed the United States war of independence – the United States fought its war of independence on credit. And the country that financed that war on behalf of the United States it was France.

That investment did place France in a big hole and later that debt destabilized the French monarchy and it was one of the factors that contributed to the French Revolution – and France at that time had only 25 million people as their total population.

Today we have China repeating the same strategy lending unlimited funds to the United States to fight several wars including in Iraq and Afghanistan – but keep in mind China has over 1.3 billion people – it will be interesting to see if this Chinese misjudgment of providing unlimited credit to fund someone else’ military spending it would comeback to bite them in the same way – and a generation from now the people would be reading and comparing the similarities on the history books about some of the reasons for the new Chinese Revolution of the early 21st Century; when China exploded into a revolution just like the French Revolution.

And one common theme would come to mind that both countries first France and later China – both financed the United States defense spending and various wars - History repeats itself.

France was able to survive the French Revolution as one country - the question is: Can China also survive such a shock with its 1.3 billion people?

If such scenario ever happen in China - then China probably would end up split in more than one country after the civil war runs its course.


.
Ch.C
written by João da Silva, November 01, 2007
And everyone has a library of the specific noise and vibrations of ALL AND EVERY sub marines they have pinpointed once in the past.

Feel free to check my statement with any sub marine sailor/officer/engineeer you wish !


I didnt know that "Unter wasser" warfare was another speciality of yours smilies/cheesy.gif
Ricardo Amaral
written by João da Silva, November 01, 2007
The positive side of this type of Chinese investment in US dollar it’s that the Chinese will be able to Wallpaper every room of every house in Asia with US$ 100 bills – I just hope that they like the color green.

By the way, when you hear the term “the green revolution” that is not what people are implying by that term.


Ricardo, if I were you, I wouldnt talk about the "Green" wall papers.Please do remember that our STRONG 1 Real paper currency is also green, though getting dirtier, tearing apart and has to be glued together with scotch tape. I dont think that our Chinese brethern would be interested in promoting our currency to use as wall paper in Asia,Africa and Oceania as Green wall paper.
forrest et al.
written by Shelly, November 02, 2007
Let me tell you a story about a nuclear sub that Brazil bought about 14/15 years ago from Germany. Someone in my family was sent to Brazil to develop a Sim for the navy to train the crew. I actually went on the Sim and was quite impressed with the whole thing. About 2 months later "someone" tried to take the sub out of bay (near Niteroi Bridge) and apparently it go stuck and the idiots managed to damage it. Brazil having nuclear sub? I guess not!

Lula and his dreams to acquire his Yellow Submarine-he must be on high levels of ethanol...
Reply to Joao da Silva
written by Ricardo Amaral, November 02, 2007
Remember the economic development plan that I suggested includes a period of transition and the final adoption of the New Asia Currency.

I don’t know what color the notes of the New Asian Currency is going to be.

Hopefully in the coming years Brazil gets rid of the real and adopt the new Asian currency – of any color red, blue, yellow, or even green.


.
Ricardo Amaral
written by João da Silva, November 02, 2007
I don’t know what color the notes of the New Asian Currency is going to be.


Nor do I. But, let me tell you something.Your over all plan is very good. If the Brasilian government listens and implements 10% of the plan, it will be a big jump. Probably in the 70´s, 90% of it would have been implemented. I dont know if you remember the growth rate of Brasil during the 60's, 70's and early 80´s. Worth researching (or asking Ch.c to enlighten us with his spreadsheet).
Reply to Joaoa da Silva
written by Ricardo Amaral, November 03, 2007
I remember the Brazilian economic miracle of the 1970's at that time I was an economics student and the Brazilian economy looked great.

Until the oil shock of 1974 - that oil shock screwed things up.

I am glad that today the Brazilian economy is independent from imported oil.

With the price of oil approaching $100 dollars per barrel the Brazilian economy is looking pretty good when compared with the other economies that are dependent on oil.

.


Ricardo Amaral
written by João da Silva, November 03, 2007
Until the oil shock of 1974 - that oil shock screwed things up.


It was in 1973,Ricardo. Had another shock in 1980 too. Thanks to Gen.Geisel and rest of the Miltary officers, we are in a better shape today. I dont know if you remember that Petrobras and Telebras were considered by the Military as strategic assets.

BTW, I still think you belong to the school of thinking of Roberto Campos!
Latin America is already armed with Nuclear Weapons.
written by Ricardo Amaral, November 03, 2007
But the reality is the following about 90 miles from the Florida coast...

On November 22, 2002, I was watching a television program on PBS called "Now with Bill Moyers," Mr. Moyers was interviewing a historian, James Blight—he wrote a book about the 1962 Cuban Nuclear Missile Crisis. It was an enlightening interview. The professor was saying that only recently, (in the last ten years) the U. S. learned a lot of new information about the Cuban missile crisis that the United States did not know at the time.

He said that the U. S. intelligence thought that Fidel Castro had no nuclear warheads on his island in 1962. Since 1992 the U. S. learned that, in fact, the Soviets had placed 162 nuclear weapons in Cuba. Fidel Castro had been cleared and had all the authorization necessary from the Soviets to use the weapons.

If the United States had attacked Cuba in 1962, the invading forces would have been annihilated by these weapons. I am glad that that crisis was resolved with diplomacy. I know that we don't learn lessons from past history, but that particular crisis is a very good example of what we don't know can hurt us in a big way.

Usually when I see lists of countries that have nuclear weapons in the newspapers, the lists never list Cuba as being a nuclear weapons country.

Since the U. S. was not aware that Cuba had such a large number of nuclear weapons on the island in 1962, then we can assume that Fidel Castro still has many of these weapons in Cuba.

Why should Castro have returned any of his 162 nuclear weapons to the Soviet Union at that time, when the United States was not aware that he had all these weapons? I will not be surprised if in the future it is confirmed that Cuba had all these weapons on that island during all these years.”

You can read about Brazil and Nuclear Weapons at the following website:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/...st1508139



.







The big question is...
written by Ricardo Amaral, November 03, 2007
Now that Fidel Castro is very old and sick and his days might be counted.- could Fidel Castro transfer his 162 nuclear warheads to Hugo Chavez in Venezuela since Chavez it seems to be the heir apparent to continue Castro's revolutionary campaign in Latin America?

That could be a possibility because I am sure that after Castro's death Cuba will become a different country and most likely will become again a capitalist society.

It will be interesting if the near future we find out that Hugo Chavez is armed with a supply of the old Soviet nuclear warheads.

.
The foremost expert on the 1962 Cuban Nuclear Missile Crisis.
written by Ricardo Amaral, November 03, 2007
By the way, historian, James Blight— he wrote a book about the 1962 Cuban Nuclear Missile Crisis.

He is considered to be the foremost expert on the 1962 Cuban Nuclear Missile Crisis.

.
Ricardo is constructing history with smoke, a paranoidal pipe dream.
written by aes, November 03, 2007
Ricardo says, "If the United States had attacked Cuba in 1962, the invading forces would have been annihilated by these weapons."

The nuclear warheads were mounted on intermediate range balistic missils. How would Castro have "the invading forces" been annihilated? If Castro had been able to dentonate "the invading forces" that would mean he would have essentially nuked Cuba, contaminating everyone on the island.

Ricardo says, "Now that Fidel Castro is very old and sick and his days might be counted.- could Fidel Castro transfer his 162 nuclear warheads to Hugo Chavez in Venezuela since Chavez it seems to be the heir apparent to continue Castro's revolutionary campaign in Latin America?"

Give supporting evidence of this Ricardo. For you then contend that Castro is going to transfer this hypothetical nuclear stockpile of 162 nukes to Chavez. The foundation of your paradigm is built on smoke.
nix the paranoidal
written by aes, November 03, 2007
paranoidal should read paranoid or paranoiac.

How would Castro have "the invading forces" been annihilated?

Should read: How would Castro have annihilated "the invading forces"?
Ricardo Amaral
written by João da Silva, November 03, 2007
Now that Fidel Castro is very old and sick and his days might be counted.- could Fidel Castro transfer his 162 nuclear warheads to Hugo Chavez in Venezuela since Chavez it seems to be the heir apparent to continue Castro's revolutionary campaign in Latin America?

That could be a possibility because I am sure that after Castro's death Cuba will become a different country and most likely will become again a capitalist society.

It will be interesting if the near future we find out that Hugo Chavez is armed with a supply of the old Soviet nuclear warheads.


Supposing that El Comandante Fidel does have these 162 warheads and when he kicks the bucket Raul transfers them to Hugo: In your opinion, Who are Comrade Chavez´s potential targets?
Reply to Joaoa da Silva
written by Ricardo Amaral, November 03, 2007
Historian James Blight found out about the 162 nuclear warheads that was inside Cuba and the United States was not aware of that fact when he was going over historical documents that had been declassified in the Soviet Union after the collapse of that country in the early 1990's.

Why historian James Blight would invent such a story?

After all he is a rep**able American historian. He got the information from the Soviets files.

It makes sense for Castro to pass these nuclear warheads to Hugo Chavez since after his death Cuba most likely will go into a different direction than when Castro was in power.

Hugo Chavez is the only one who wants to spread some kind of revolution in Latin America - the Castro type of revolution.

By the way, Che Guevara wanted to launch one of these nuclear warheads against the United States in 1962 and Fidel Castro decided otherwise.

The nuclear warheads were not returned to the Soviets in 1962 since the United States were not aware that they had all these nukes already in the island. Fidel Castro still must have the nukes in Cuba unless he transferred part of them to Venezuela.


.


.
Ricardo Amaral
written by João da Silva, November 03, 2007
Hugo Chavez is the only one who wants to spread some kind of revolution in Latin America - the Castro type of revolution.


Do u think that he will succeed?
Ricardo Amaral
written by aes, November 04, 2007
I also saw the documentary. It stated that Castro had some operationally ready missiles and could have at one point launched the few missiles that were opperational. There were at that time according to the Russians 162 missiles, but the documentary does not state that 162 missiles were left in Cuba. Why then do you state that there are nuclear warheads still in Cuba?

Chavez has just abridged the Constitution of Venezuela to allow him to run ad infinitum as president/dictator. Since Chavez rose to power the Venezuelan economy has tanked in spite of increased oil revenues, inflation is rampant, the poor have become poorer and life has become an economic misery. Chavez bring a neo socialism to South America, but like all socialisms it will eventually fail. Chavez has militarized, ie the million man army he has acquired along with his squadrons of jets and Russian assault rifles. He then, aids in the 'class struggle' of all countries within his sphere of influence. Chavez believes he must bring to all the nations of South America solution to the millions of poor. He has enough weapons to distribute to any and all existing or want to be revolutionaries. He will support the overthrow of all non socialistic governments in South America. His army, his weaponry will deter any resistence or reprisal. Brazil is tinder for such a Chavesian scenario. Chavez is no friend to Brazil.
Ricardo Amaral
written by João da Silva, November 04, 2007
Brazil is tinder for such a Chavesian scenario. Chavez is no friend to Brazil.


I am posting a link that you find interesting to read:
http://www.estadao.com.br/esta...5182,0.php
Ricardo, aes and joao
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
Brazil is tinder for such a Chavesian scenario. Chavez is no friend to Brazil.

Not quite yet. If we don't do anything than you are right, we'll be speaking Chavelian in no time. However, as the Estadao points out, Brazil will be buying new technology and I hope they will choose France as the provider. Russia is not a reliable source, Putin has a history of blackmailing countries. Don't forget the gas crisis fiasco! I agree with second statement, but do you really think the US is not already keeping an eye on him? And do you think the US will allow a transfer of the nuclear warheads to Venezuela? I bet my money that this country would do anything in its power to stop such action.
...
written by João da Silva, November 04, 2007
However, as the Estadao points out, Brazil will be buying new technology and I hope they will choose France as the provider.


I hope it is F-16´s which are on sale according to AES. If Chevez buys Sukhois, we buy American planes to counter and piss him off. Remember a) the French are not very reliable as the Argentines discovered during the Falklands war b) our first astronaut Col.Marcos Ponte trained at NASA.
Joao
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
That was during the Falklands, the new Rafale is quite impressing and all new technology.
Joao
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
The SU-47 is a piece of junk, I don't know much about fighter planes, but you guys can correct me if I am wrong, but the Sukhois is not considered to be a stealth fighter, they have "incorporated" stealth technology, but it doesn't mean it is. I hope we don't go for the Russian tin can.If I had to decided, I would go with F-16 and Rafale is our second option.
Shelly
written by João da Silva, November 04, 2007
I hope we don't go for the Russian tin can.If I had to decided, I would go with F-16 and Rafale is our second option.


Right now, considering that the Real is strong against Dollar and the F-16 are being offered at a bargain, F-16 is my choice. If I am not mistaken, most of the NATO countries have these fighters. According to what I read, they are very good.

That was during the Falklands, the new Rafale is quite impressing and all new technology.


New Rafaele may be quite impressing and incorporated with all the new technology. I think that still the Americans are very good in Avionics. Only thing I am worried about is that they might have outsourced the manufacturing of the components to PRC smilies/angry.gif
Joao
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
Will the US sell us the missiles to go with the F-16? I don't think so, therefore what is the point buying something we cannot use.
...
written by João da Silva, November 04, 2007
Will the US sell us the missiles to go with the F-16? I don't think so, therefore what is the point buying something we cannot use.


Depends on the hard negotiations.
Joao
written by Shelly, November 04, 2007
The Us will never sell the missiles to Brazil, it won't happen. We tried with them before and we all know that they have laws protecting national sensitive technology. France on the other hand is giving 19% discount on Rafale, they are almost loosing a contract with Marroco, therefore it leaves Brazil, Taiwan and India. With the Euro squeezing business out of Europe and back into the hands of the US, France has not other choice. At any rate, if we have a problem with the US in the future, they won't sell us anything. The best thing for Brazil is to get it whatever we can buy and begin developing our own planes. Best thing would be to get Embraer involved.
F18 suppers
written by forrest allen brown, November 04, 2007
are being phased out as we speak of corse
lula could buy the 24 F 14 tomcats from IRAN as they did not get much fly time
as the US would not sell them spares too fly .during the carter years

brasil could buy the sparrow 3 or 4
smart bombs could be made easy enough even for brasil

the 18 have better range than the 16
and carry more weight
booth are good air too air
but the 18 is grate ground fighter

shelly it w