Brazzil

That's an american (us of a) patent.

Nuf said...

Vânia, your analysis of racialized space in carioca shopping centers is as acute as it it is sensitive and timely. I particularly appreciate your ability to discern that it is the intersection of multiple exclusions - race AND class AND color - which construct these spaces and their inhabitants.

However, I have two questions for you...

1) Recent polls indicate that close to 90% of Brazilians believe and will affirm that their country is racist. So who, exactly, are "those who carry the flag that Brazil is not racist"? Can you name us some names? Because it very much looks to me, cousin, that you are preaching to the choir on this one. The kind of affirmations you make here may have been relevations back in 1974, but they certainly aren't now, at least to any moderately informed Brazilian social scientist. So why the insistent North American need (and in spite of your birth place, you have been as much educated in the North American academic tradition as I have been in the Brazilian) to repeatedly denounce Brazilian racism as if nothing has changed in public perceptions of this phenomenon since the halcyon days of Freire's Luso-tropicalism? You'd think you'd folks would have moved to catch up with Brazilian analyses of racism in this country by now. No one of consequence denies that Brazil suffers from racial exclusion any more.

2) You talk of shopping centers as if they were homogenous phenomena. Surely you've been to other shoppings than those in Rio's toney (and very white) asphalt South Zone? Have you never been to any shoppings in the Northern Zone, cousin? Don't you think that an analysis and comparison of THOSE OTHER shoppings (to steal a term from Mall Rats) would enrich your appreciation of racial spaces in Brazil? Because when I go to the shopping in São Gonçalo, I don't see many white patricinhas being followed by mulatta minders. I do see, however, many brown Dona Marias being followed around by equally dark or darker housemaids.

Finally, you mention the illustrations of Rugendas and Debret. I commend you to look a bit closer at them. There's a classic one in particular which I have in mind. I'm sure you will recall it. It is an illustration of a Luso-Brazilian (and very white) shoe-maker applying the palmatório to one of his African slaves. Behind him and to the left, we see his mulata wife or concubine, carrying their child and laughing at the spectacle, as it was she who caused the slave to be punished.

It is comforting to believe that exclusion in Brazil can be simply reduced to a two dimensional child's algebra of race and color. The concept that ethnicity trumps class is one which has historically been quite dear to the U.S. American social sciences. But while racism unquestionably exists in our society and while exclusion cannot likewise be reduced to a class question, it is blindingly obvious that simple black/white definitions of race and exclusion are NOT the first resource common, everyday cariocas reach for when they view and describe their world. Things are much more complex here than that.

I hope you are trying to bring this complexity into your work and are not yet one more in a dismayingly large number of transplanted Brazilian academics who are trying to build a career by cutting Brazilian realities to fit into North American conceptual frameworks.

No one of consequence denies that Brazil suffers from racial exclusion any more.

I do. At the end you said the very problem with this trend here:

who are trying to build a career by cutting Brazilian realities to fit into North American conceptual frameworks.

That's it. Brazilians say Brazil is racist because the vast majority never traveled abroad, they only know about other countries what they see in the movies and they are trying to be politically correct. Interpreting the number of 90% as a sign that we are all convinced that Brazil is racist is too simplistic, and as an example I give the general reaction against the racist "black conscience" day. The only ones I heard praising it were either activists, opportunistic politicians, journalists or sociologists who are ideologically engaged. The common guy, almost all of them, despises it. I have still to meet a single person who doesn't work in a newspaper or in a university to say anything good about it. The idea that this is racism is generalized.

Also remember that we are in a English speaking forum and there are historical differences between societies. The individuals that come to this place have a completely different view than Brazil. They are used to think in terms of "racial purity" and anglo-saxons ideals of race. Whoever reads it will understand that you are saying that Brazil is just as racist as the US was in the beginning of the XX century.

Racial concepts in Brazil are different and that's a good thing. I also deny the statistics about blacks in Brazil because they are false. The criteria adopted for determining "who's black" is the anglo-saxon one when it matters (for example, they boost the total number of blacks in Brazil by summing the number of morenos to it, so they can say that "algmost half of Brazil is black", which is much bigger than the official IBGE census numbers) or the brazilian criteria when it suits their goals better (for example, to calculate the average salary of blacks and whites, or to show the division or race in schools and colleges they use the brazilian scale, so the numbers will be much smaller and they can say that the opportunities or the number of students are too low).

Lies based on produced statistics, complete disregard for Brazil's history and culture, and isolated cases of racism are all you have. Not enough.

I chose this subject because it seems that racist organizations are trying to set up business here in Brazil just like McDonalds or Burger King. Soon there will be networks for the African, Jew, Nazi diasporas and they will all work against what is best for this nation. No, thanks.

........Brazil still has slavery.....is more appropriate and sadly true.

And to the idiot...A Brazilian : are churascarias not ALL over the world ? Should we close them down using your own ideology ?


Ohhhhh and are they not millions of Brazilians ILLEGALLY ALL OVER THE WORLD ...ON TOP OF THE LEGALS ? iT IS NOT SOON BUT THERE ARE ALREADY DIASPORAS OF BRAZILIANS ALL OVER THER WORLD. By all over the world I mean...the wealthy countries, because of course, Brazilians have no desire to work in China, Asia, India, Russia or Africa. Guess why.
You are even ready to pay US$ 10'000.- to get out of your apparent paradise to go to hell !
Strange...isnt it ?

Is this what wealthy nations want ? NO THANKS !

Brazilians always want to take and give nothing in return. that is in your blood and genes !

Just think twice, next time, before you call others racist organizations, because Brazilians SHINE....in racism !
You just proved it.....ONCE MORE !

Your excellent question "So who, exactly, are "those who carry the flag that Brazil is not racist"? Can you name us some names?"


Of course, read the comments of...A Brazilian !!!!
And read the comments on this site of 90 % of the commentators...every time there is an article in this site on the subject of Racism in Brazil !
They agree with.....A Brazilian !!!!!

Just ask them and they will even tell you that You......PhD in Social Anthropology, Museu Nacional, Rio de Janeiro.......knows nothing about racism in Brazil, because there is none !!!!!!!!
They will even not admit that the polls made in Brazil, by Brazilians, for/with Brazilians, clearly state that BRAZILIANS admit there is racism in Brazil.
Brazilians all ove the world is normal for them, but foreigners in Brazil is NIT NORMAL for them. Same for commercial companies.
And sadly same for trade !
For most Brazilians everything mjujst be....ONE WAY....because 95 % of them have only HALF A BRAIN.

RECIPROCITY..... IS NOT EVEN IN THEIR NON EDUCATION OR IN THEIR DICTIONARY !!!!
Brazil is against the USA corn ethanol subsidizes, despite Brazil had subsidzed sugarcane ethanol for ONLY over 2 decades.
Brazil is against USA/EU farm subsidizes, but not against Brazilian subsidizes provided by loans from the BNDES at WELL WELL below the normal borrowing rates from regular banks. Same for many of your NON agricultural industries.
Brazil wants the USA/EU to reduce the farm subsidizes but Brazil refuse to open up their NON farm industries.
Brazil wants we charge lower import taxes, despite the fact that Brazil charges far more import taxes than the EU/USA charge !

Finally funny, that YOUR Vice President Açucar (Alencar) say there is no slavery in the Brazilian sugarcane industry, while BIN LULA says once that slavery in Brazil is a tragedy, and a few weeks later also say there is no salvery !!!!!!

And as an Anthropologue, YOU should know that slavery in Brazil was abolished.....on paper only.
Because if you have none, how can you free a few thousands every year, who are in fact only the tip of the iceberg ?

My question: Are the Swiss racists? Would appreciate your valuable comments.AND don't go into a long lecture. Just stick to the issue of racism (or lack of it) in Switzerland.

"No one of consequence denies that Brazil suffers from racial exclusion any more."
...
"I do."

From ther above exchange, it is apparent that "A Brazilian" is laboring under the misapprehension that he is someone of consequence

From ther above exchange, it is apparent that "A Brazilian" is laboring under the misapprehension that he is someone of consequence

I could very well be. You don't know anything about me.

"....long-haired brunettes, in excellent shape, fashionably dressed in T-shirts, jeans, and platform sandals......" That is why i like to visit Brazil so much!

"....long-haired brunettes, in excellent shape, fashionably dressed in T-shirts, jeans, and platform sandals......" That is why i like to visit Brazil so much!

What is your Port of Entry, Fortaleza?

You come into my neighborhood

“….you will get short-haired flamenguistas, in bulk shape, rarely dressed in T-shirts, jeans, but with some s**t-kicker boots......" That is why you will like to visit Brazil so much!

I think most foreigners still believe Brazil to be a “racial democracy”.

Why go to the Mall?! Turn on Globo, or flick through any mainstream magazine, and you see a predominantly white country looking back at you.

I am a Black American and made my first trip to Rio in August. I noticed that most blacks in Rio were in dire straits, which is probably the reason for the high crime rate. Most of us in the US don't believe Brazil is a racial democracy. It is sort of like what we had before the 60's when they said we had separate but equal. Well it was separate, but it sure was not equal. Then they would say, I would hire one, but I can't find one qualified. What had happened is that they changed the qualifications. When I started my career, I found out that I was generally more qualified that the people presently on the job. Look at the Bush administration. Chaney and Bush are dummies, but Condi has a Phd. She could not get that job if she was as qualified as Bush.

While in Rio, I did not experience any discrimination. Perhaps it was because of the wallet full of greenbacks. I left with a good feeling for the Brazilian people. But where ever I went I was ususally the only Black customer.

I think Brazil will change one day or be forced to change. The sooner you guys change, the better off all Brazilians will be. If everybody had an opportunity, crime will go down and the Favelas will probably disappear. If things don't change, the Favelas will probably blow up, meaning a riot. A lot of people will die and a lot of property destroyed and a lot of business lost. What you have now is a sore that won't heal. It is ashame, because this is an opportunity missed. Good luck Brazilians. I am pulling for ya.

You may not have experienced the racism because it's silent there, if you've stayed there long enough, you would see tht they may smile in your face but will sell you out in a second.
Even with all our problems, be glad you were born in the u.s. regardless you still have much more opportunities here & people let you know wher they stand. I rather have that than not.

"You come into my neighborhood"

“….you will get short-haired flamenguistas, in bulk shape, rarely dressed in T-shirts, jeans, but with some s**t-kicker boots......" That is why you will like to visit Brazil so much!"

Why expand such energy, just get a gun, knife, put on a mask & run. Isn't that what usually happens.

Racism in Brazil has shown itself to me in interesting ways and I have yet to meet anyone who denies it exists though many who say (falsely) that they are not racist.

Novelas, advertising and government are predominantly white....

Racism is a simple fact of life here.

I didn´t see anything for black people to aspire to in USA, quite the contrary.

written by non brazilian, 2007-12-01 22:18:11

"I didn´t see anything for black people to aspire to in USA, quite the contrary."

Then you must not of had your glasses on, for anyone to say that about the u.s & have lived here (if you did) & make such an ignorant statement boggles my mind.
Inthe u.s even with our faults, blacks/people of color, etc. for the most part participate in every aspect of life, blue collar, professional, every field & even our government, etc.
No where on Earth do people of color overall fear as well, nowhere.
So check your facts or even better come & live & experience it & see the respect that is afforded to everyone regardless of color whether you like to acept it or not.

You may not have experienced the racism because it's silent there, if you've stayed there long enough, you would see tht they may smile in your face but will sell you out in a second.
Even with all our problems, be glad you were born in the u.s. regardless you still have much more opportunities here & people let you know wher they stand. I rather have that than not.

I realize that. I never let my guard down the whole time I was there. And I think people realized that. I grew up when it was mandatory to live in a black area of any town in the US. Therefore I am what you call street smart. We have a saying here. Yu can't play the player.

Em Salvador, a gente eh mais tolerante. Tem gente de toda cor em nossos shoppings.
A gente num eh igual ao sulistas pra gente ter racismo aqui.

Oh yeah, Salvador is "much better" than Rio. You still keep your n****rs in the Senzalas up there. There is no such place as segregated as Bahia.

While in Rio, I did not experience any discrimination. Perhaps it was because of the wallet full of greenbacks. I left with a good feeling for the Brazilian people. But where ever I went I was ususally the only Black customer.

Two things:

- You didn't notice racism because there isn't racism in Brazil;
- You were the "only" black customer because blacks in Brazil are only 7% of the population.

people let you know wher they stand.

How do you think it is going to be when racism disappear? You can't continue thinking binary forever, if you intend to finish with racism at all. Unless of course you are too comfortable with this "us and them"mentality. Certainly a lot of people profit from it.

But in a situation of no racism it wouldn't make any sense to have "people of color", since it wouldn't matter. That's why Brazil is many steps ahead of everyone else in the world regarding this matter. I know Brazil and the US, but I would still choose Brazil and I wouldn't want my kids to grow in the American culture to be taught to see others as "different" based on obsolete racial theories. In Brazil they might face other problems, but there's no such thing as considering people different because of race.

Indeed Brazil is the most advanced country in terms of race in the world, there's no doubt about it.

Two things:

- You didn't notice racism because there isn't racism in Brazil;

People around the world know about the racism in Brazil. Most of the people who are affected by racism have bought into your belief. For decades it has been said that there is no racism in Brazil and everybody has bought into it. People who are obviously Black will say they are White. While you guys are at it, why don't you say that there is no poverty in Brazil. It makes about as much sense. Racism will remain in Brazil for the foreseeable future, because you have no Rosa Parks, no Medgar Evers, no Martin Luther King and no NAACP. Until somebody stands up and says enough, nothing will change. Sir look around you. Do you see any Blacks with good jobs, good housing on the television, radio or in the movies, in magazines or even politicians? They are only playing soccer or dancing the Samba. This could be a good place to start. Boycott Soccer and the Samba. That should get everybody's attention.

Do you see any Blacks with good jobs, good housing on the television, radio or in the movies, in magazines or even politicians?

Yes, I do. And it seems to be proportional to the official census numbers.

Most of the people who are affected by racism have bought into your belief.

What is the easiest explanation: people do think like this because it is like this or there's a very elaborated conspiracy? The first option is the only plausible explanation. People living in Brazil do think that race doesn't matter because it's not required for anything we do in our lives and the individual mertis comes always first. When someone do something good, it's not because he is a white or a black, but because of himself.

This is the extreme opposite of the US, where you just can't live a normal life without being labeled, segregated and conscripted to some sort of racial war. The first casualty of such war is the loss of individualism and individual merits, since everything you do, good or bad, is automatically attributed to the collective.

It even seems, by learning the American culture, that the only ones allowed to be individuals are the whites. All others are treated only as a collective, as if they were worthless individually. Your culture is a culture of producing broken individuals.

Pancho said it well above & i say it again, you don;t know what you're talking about, As i've said previously you are a prime example of the dilusional/denial state of mind that exists in brazil. It is minds like yours that perpetuate the myths all around you.
I find it sad, sad indeed.

You shoul've been so lucky to be born inthis country, veven Mr. Pancho if he hs travelled the world would know that as i've said b4, even with our faults, people of all colors benefit here in one way or another, hence look @ the #' of illegals that come from your country & others. THIS IS THE LAND OF OPPORTUNITY AND STILL IS. Anyone here can become anything they want, because of the opportunity, infrastruc ture in place, etc. WE have people of all colors in every as pect of life.
Like it it's realtiy.
So keep livinv in your lala land.

...
written by Another Brazilian, 2007-12-02 15:35:58
Oh yeah, Salvador is "much better" than Rio. You still keep your n****rs in the Senzalas up there. There is no such place as segregated as Bahia.

Easy on the "N" word there bro.

THIS IS THE LAND OF OPPORTUNITY AND STILL IS

Fences on the borders and a devaluing dollar, which is making many Brazilians that immigrated there to go back home. No...

"Fences on the borders and a devaluing dollar, which is making many Brazilians that immigrated there to go back home. No"

if no one wanted to come here the fences wouldn't be necessary, would they?
plenty of your country men are also caught by/near the fences, hidden in cars, under seats, etc.
and the one's htat you claim are coming back are the ones that get caught by immigration, or they're too lazy to work like real men.
why don't you check the lines outside the american embassy & let me know when they go down.
your wish for us to go down & you go up will never happen, keep waiting, hope lula comes us with a good retirementplan for you.

On the other hand, i & alot of people here wish they would all leave, i'm sure not too many people would miss them.
after all they an go back to the great life that brazil afforded them before, a life of not finding a decent job, a decent age, without fear of walking the streets, full of crime, burglaries, thefts, rape's, or living with mom & dad is always the best.
And just turn a blind eye to everything around you & imagine that it's all great.

Nao aguento Brasileiros escrevendo dessa maneira, matando nossa lingua. Um absurdo essa "moda". Tenham vergonha, escrevam corretamente!

"Indeed Brazil is the most advanced country in terms of race in the world, there's no doubt about it."

Hahahahahaha. Funny. Very funny.

I think this talk about race is so stupid. All skin color is, is natural adaptation, a product of evolution, as humans moved around the world. If you see a science show on PBS you will know this: we were all descendants of the black race because the first humans were black. Why all this fear of skin pigmentation?? All it is is more carotenoids.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...d of it.)

That is ALL is is! It's so idiotic to keep hearing this crap. It's not a culture that teaches racism. It's parents, generation after generation, keeping it alive. I laugh at Brazilians saying they are white. There's no such thing, really. Every true Brazilian has been mixed and remixed. As guess what? In the US there's also racism amongst that blacks: lighter blacks look down upon darker blacks. There's racism amongst the white folks too, based on class and income. So you see, this is just too dumb!

There is racism everywhere and always will be. But that's just because humans make very little use of their brain. We are too stupid to understand that skin color really does not matter one bit. It's about what's inside. We,however, prefer to live on the surface. Facing the fact that we are all equals would signify we need to allow others to be different, and we'd have to be more humble and accepting of everyone. That's too hard, so we categorize everything. Its a CHOICE.

This talk of country too, nationality - another stupidity. It only separates us. In the end, we are all humans, all have the same feelings, desires, needs. And time goes so fast while we are dumb enough to waste it in empty arguments. What we all need is a bigger vision of ourselves and this poor planet. We need to stop arguing, fighting, defending governments. While we are down here saying mine is better than yours, both governments are screwing us all. The American Dream is just that. With the politicians playing bitches for Big Corp, you and I are just hamsters on wheels for them. Work hard, eat and breathe poison, buy plastic s**t you don't need because it makes you feel better momentarily, make them richer so they can control more of your life, all the while making you think you are really getting some place, when all you do is to spin (you hamster you).

Wake up, Eartlings! Smell the espresso! Live consciously, get along with others, stop being so judgmental and get a life. Live and let live and try to be happy dancing to the beat of your own drum. Screw superficial differences. These stupidities are exactly why we are still having wars in the world, despite so many generations.

Oh, and stop breeding. The world's full already. We have ran out of space.

Unfortunately your rant doesn't meet the facts. The concept of race evolved differently on different countries and that's easy to observe through History. Just study a little. No, it's not the same.

There is a small, but vocal minority that also believes that the Earth is flat. One will find cranks like C.Ch and a Brazilian everywhere.

Nevertheless, recent polls by Veja magazine and the Ministry of Justice indicate that 87% of Brazilians believe their country has a problem with racism.

using that "N" word would get your ass popped in america and probably certain
areas of brasil.....thats called racism son!!

Nevertheless, recent polls by Veja magazine and the Ministry of Justice indicate that 87% of Brazilians believe their country has a problem with racism.

That's ignoring the reality of Brazil. Brazilians will just assume Brazil has all kinds of problems, even it doesn't have it, for being politically correct.

What the hell does that mean? Do you have a definition for it or is it just a convenient buzz-word for you to drop into a conversation whenever you feel outnumbered by majority opinion, A. Brazilian?

Nice to note however that you do admit, if in a round about way, that you are in the minortity when you say "Brazil isn't racist" and that you are well aware of this fact.

We are not a minority, most people are against policies like quotas and other institutionalized racist practices. The marches that occurred recently in Sao Paulo were done by very few people (a few thousands in a city with more than 10 million inhabitants), and most part of those were associated with black racist organizations. The detabe forums on the internet are either empty or have a lot of messages speaking up against racist policies, especially the ones blacks wish to implement in Brazil.

If 85% really thought that the solution were to go the anglo-saxon way, then we would see a multitude on the streets clamoring for racist laws such as quotas. Please explain why if 85% is in favor of it we are still even discussing it? Haha. Shouldn't it have been defined a long time ago? Even the segregational policies this government wish to implement are under fire! Either from individuals or from the justice that considers it to be unconstitutional.

http://conjur.estadao.com.br/static/text/61902,1

You don't know how to interpret the data, that's all. Asking a very vague question such as if "there's racism" doesn't tell if the person is only saying what he thinks you want to hear, it doesn't tell if he is against or not racist policies, it doesn't tell if he agrees or not with the "anglicanization" of the Brazilian culture by infecting it with your racial obsession, and so on.

There's racism and racism, A. I, too, am against quotas. I am not against affirmative action. And by no means does being against quotas mean you think you live in a racial democracy where there is no racism. Why you would equate the two positions is completely beyond me as there is no logical reason why one can be against quotas and still believe that Brazil has a problem with racism. I, for one, simply don't see quotas resolving the questions that need to be resolved.

Nor does believing that Brazil is racist means that one needs must believe in an "anglo-saxon way". In fact, what the hell are you talking about when you say "anglo-saxon way"? The racial systems of England's colonies are by no means identical or even equivalent and neither are those of Portugal's colonies. Nor can the U.S. - whose white population is massively NON anglo-saxon and has been so since the mid 19th century - can qualify as an "Anglo-Saxon nation". Seems to me you're just parroting some obsolete19th century ethnic terms without, once again, having the slightest idea of what they mean.

can = can't in previous post. pissed you can't edit these things.

By "anglo-saxon" culture I mean certain aspects of the cultures of English speaking countries that include an obsession with racial denomination and segregation. As an example I give England and the early eugenics movement, started by Francis Galton. In the US I cite Madison Grant and how eugenics influenced many of the policies there.

In an anglo-saxon culture race is strict and absolute and, even if people aren't aware, it has its roots in the scientific racism of the XIX century. There's no logical reason to accept only binary denominations such as black/white like it is in the US for example, and one of the main goals of the racist movement in Brazil is to abolish the inbetween denominations. This is what I mean by "anglicanization".

This is not related to genes, but culture. Your anglo-saxon mentality put genes first because you are conditioned to think in terms of "ethnicities" and not in terms of people.

In an anglo-saxon culture race is strict and absolute and, even if people aren't aware

Including Winston Churchill who described the British a "mongrel race"....

By "anglo-saxon" culture I mean certain aspects of the cultures of English speaking countries that include an obsession with racial denomination and segregation

Then you're not using the term appropriately at all. Anglo-Saxon properly describes an ethnic group from the central-east of England. While this group did play an important role in the intitial colonozation of the U.S., they were rapidly overwhelmed by other ethnic groups. And they were hardly present in other British colonies - such as, say, Australia and Canada - which were dominated from the get-go by people from the Celtic fringe of the British islands.

So to begin with, you're not even using a key term of your analysis correctly. You don't even seem to know what it means. A very bad sign for a (wo)man who is trying to make a decent comparison between Brazil's racial history and those of the English-speaking world, as it denotes deep and abiding ignorance regarding the topic under discussion.

More disturbing is the fact that you're apparently as ignorant about English-speaking countries' realities of race as the gringos you criticize are regarding Brazil's. There is no one specific "aspect" regarding this question which one can find in all - or even most - English-speaking countries. At given times and in different places, English colonists have created both segregationist and assimilationist systems with regards to race and have preached miscegenation, segregation and everything else you can imagine. Only someone who was incredibly ignorant of the way race has been built in the English-speaking world would believe that there was one single way - or even a hegemonic theme - in "anglo-saxon" [sic] race relations.

Now, I realize that among those Brazilians who don't study the history of the British Empire and its associated colonies and settlements, it's quite common to believe in what Brazilian historical essayists have said about these places over the past hundred years (generally without the slightest bit of research to back their suppositions up). But that's an odd position for someone who criticizes overly-simplistic foreign views of Brazil to take. What it seems, A, is that you are bitching that gringos don't know s**t about race in Brazil while your very comments betray the fact that you know vanishingly little about how race has worked in the English-speaking world.

So it seems a bit of a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Now, as for your assertion that Brazil has never been racist (and here you seem to be implying that "racism" needs must include formal laws of racial segregation in order to exist, which is another simple fallacy), that is quite easily disproven. At both the local and national level, Brazil has had SEVERAL laws which have discriminated against blacks. For example, for the better part of a century, blacks - even wealthy, professional U.S. blacks - were prohibited from imigrating to Brazil. Thousands of clubs and associations in the country had laws prohibiting black membership. And even in those cases were segregation was not de jure, it was certainly de fato. Brazilian blacks have not simply "imagined" that have been discriminated against, A, and only an exceptionally ideologically blind person would even attempt to imply that have.

Now, whether or not the road to solving this problem is quotas and the enshrinement of racial identity as mandatory is an entirely different kettle of fish. But there's no doubt in the mind of any serious Brazilian historian or sociologist that Brazil has been and still is a deeply racist country. You need to stop reading amateur raciologists and essayists such as Kamel and take a look at what the actual HISTORIANS of your country are saying and have been saying for decades.

I find it odd, A, that you complain about the dominance of "anglo-saxon" views yet you yourself seem to be quite thoroughly colonized by them yourself. After all, your words seem to imply that the only "true" form of "racism" on the planet is the "anglo-saxon" variety and, given how Brazil does not have a racist system that is 100% identical to this, then Brazil, ipso facto, cannot be racist. Seems to me as if you're affirming, in a round about way, that England and the U.S. are the historical measuring stick by which we should judge the relevancy or validity of the Brazilian experience. An odd position for a self-proclaimed nationalist intellectual to be in, if you ask me...

In an anglo-saxon culture race is strict and absolute...

That is simply untrue.

You seem to take the U.S. Southern experience of racer over the last century as the yard-stick by which racial ideology in all British colonies, at all moments in history, must be measured. That's a simple and illogic fallacy. "Indian" race in the U.S. - to just name one of a dozen outstanding examples - was and is neither "strict" nor "absolute". It has historically been assimilationist and miscegenationist and people today talk of "degrees" of Native American ancestry and not whether one is simply "white" or "indian". Likewise, in British colonies such as Jamaica and the pre-Civil War Charleston, mulatos existed and are/were recognized as an intermediary group between white and black. Again, these are just a few of the MANY examples that exist in the historiography of this question. Your problem, A, is that you've watched too many American made-for-T.V. movies over the past years and you seem to think that this gives you an adequate view of what race relations are and have been like all over the English-speaking world. Again, this is an error that's as stupid as the one you accuse gringos of making re: Brazil.

With regards to scientific racism, it was VERY much in vogue in Brazil in the 19th century as well. Come to Rio and I'll show you our collection of old biometric equipment. And these theories were used to promote laws and practices here, just as they were in the U.S. I suggest you look up Roquette-Pinto's intervention in the debate re: Japanese immigration to Brazil in the 1920s and then come here and tell us about how Brazil "never used social Darwinistic and eugenicist notions of race in its laws".

For someone who criticizes ignorant americans lack of knowledge of Brazil, you're revealing yourself to be staggeringly ignorant of your own country's history, A.

Every single f**king thread is the same script. Some anglo-saxon moron will come and point the finger at Brazil. Then when confronted with the reality (the active participation of English, Canadians, Americans and other Europeans in eugenics and other racist movements, or segregationist laws, or the sick "racial struggle" mentality in the US) they say that everything is a "lie". f**k YOU!

Answer this question: Did Francis Galton, an English, never exist? Didn't the English discriminate against the Irish, considering them something like a "white negroid"? Didn't the Americans created a culture of strict segregation and prevented certain types of immigrants in order to keep the white "white"? What about that brother of Charles Darwin (I forgot his name) that promoted racism in England? What about all the scientific racism of the XIX century, in which Americans and English took a major part?

Look, I have studied this crap a lot. I know the history of eugenics, how it influenced policies all around the world and that the Nazis weren't the only people practicing it! Perhaps today you don't have such laws anymore, but you still find vestigial remains of this culture in popular beliefs. It's easy to find out traces of "Nordic theory" on this very site!

It's perfectly correct to refer to the US, England and other english speaking countries as "anglo-saxon" or "anglophone" or whatever like this, the same way we call the spanish speaking countries hispanophone or hispanic, despite of being composed by a huge variety of peoples that immigrated to those places (the US does that a lot, by the way), and portuguese speaking countries as lusophone. Don't run from the argument by twisting the meaning of the word! The only blind ignorant here is YOU.

As part of the racist dementia from black racists in Brazil we see an attempt to kill any in between denomination and transform it in something like the US. Why? I challenge you to point a single reason in order to support that! Today those groups even say that half of Brazil is black, because in the US they would be black (that's true, the only line of reason they have is "But in the US...", I actually participated in one detabe once and I asked the racist activist this, she just didn't have an answer and started stuttering...), although the official census numbers point to 7% black only.

You are just another idiot. Brazil is the most advanced country in terms of race of the entire world, and lots of people are against affirmative action or whatever action, otherwise we would have had it a very long time ago! Explain us that. Why if the "vast majority" is in favor of it we never had a black movement to begin with? Why didn't we have identity politics? Why didn't we ever such racist clowns?

It's not an entirely different "kettle of fish" (this term is very academic, isn't it?) when the same morons promoting racism are promoting segregationist laws and the anglo-saxon culture!

You have absolutely zero facts to back your claims up.

Just do us all a favor and keep your infectious racist culture where it belongs.

On reading some of A. Brazilian's posts, one thing that has to be recognised is that his comprehension and knowledge of the history of Eugenics is spot on. In addition, his understanding of pale-ism is also correct in that the English have always sought to differentiate themselves from the Irish, Scottish, Welsh, French despite their own mongrel status. Historically, the English have mixed happily with everyone who pissed in their backyard, from Vikings, Romans etc... However the most bizarre thing, is that a country with such a varied genetic pool can then seek to segregate themselves. Obviously, the US, Canada and Australia will follow their historical master's leads. There were pogroms against Jews and Italians in the US, greeks in Australia etc...because they did not fit to a specified code.

However, where he loses the plot is when he comes to studying his own country. He could be Gilberto Freyre's grandson within this regard. Affirmative action has been taking place for centuries in Brazil (for the elites), just under a different name. The Afro-Brazilian fight for self-determination has been taking place since the first slave ship landed. What most annoys the elite is that their calls for freedom and advancement can now be he heard globally, and are not confined to the lower hold of the ships.

The Afro-Brazilian fight for self-determination...

Did you know that in Brazil people were always free to call themselves whatever they want? What bulls**t is this of self-determination!? THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN FREEDOM TO BE WHATEVER YOU WANT TO BE.

This forum is misinformation in the purest form. Such anglo-saxons ashamed of their past need to accuse others in order to look good for themselves. You were the biggest racists the world has ever seen, accept it. It's not really difficult to do better than you, it's actually very easy since you are the worst of all.

Did you know that in Brazil people were always free to call themselves whatever they wan.

I can call my self a lamp post, but that doesn't make me one. I hope you guys get it together before the Brazilians of African decent WAKE UP. Because when they do, all hell will break loose. Soon they will get tired of having no political representation. Being 1-percent of college students, no-percent of actors, TV reporters, News paper reporters, models, doctors, teachers, lawyers, etc.

With a last name like "Blanchette", you gotta know I'm Amglo-Saxon, right? Blanchette is such a common Anglo-Saxon last name...

Acorda p'ra cuspir, A. Brazilian

Who has said that eugenics didn't exist, let alone Galton?

What IS being said - and if you were calmer you'd realize this - is that Scientific racism and eugenics were hardly "anglo-saxon" specialties. They were common throughout the western world INCLUDING Brazil. You've heard of Gobineau, I presume, just for starters?

Ironically enough, I just spent the afternoon going through Edgard Roquette-Pinto's files at the Academia Brasileira de Letras. R-P's work is FULL of talk about eugenics, as was that of his imediate superior Batista de Lacerd, the director of the Museu Nacional in the 1920s. One of the cheerfull little documents I read through this afternoon was a full-color report of a dissection RP and Lacerd did of a 50 year old Indian women for biometrical and eugenics purposes.

So please, A. Brazilian, bull me no more s**t about how eugneics never got off the ground in Brazil. If you can't be bothered to read about the history of your country and the official policies of "branqueamento" which the Republican government promulgated back in the late 19th and early 20th century, then for heaven's sake, why should anyone believe that your views are anything more than a poorly-wrapped bundle of prejudice?

Fact: eugenics and scientific racism were VERY much alive in Brazil back in the day.

Fact: Brazil promulgated many laws - both local and national - which promoted racial segregation.

Fact: not all British colonies were the same with regards to race and their way of dealing with it.

Fact: there simply ISN'T an "Anglo-Saxon" and "Lusitanian" view of race. Both empires used segregation and assimilation, racial mixing and the politics of so-called "blood purity" at various places and times.

And finally...

Fact: no one here, as far as I can see, denies that the English and Americans used eugenics and scientific racism in the late 19th and early 20th century. What is being said - and this should be BLINDINGLY obvious - is that the French, Germans, Spanish, Portugese AND BRAZILIANS (among many other nations) did AS WELL. So based on what, might I ask, can you call eugenics an "anglo-american" ideology, other than your own ignorance and prejudices?

I just wanted to point it out the article I saw both on Veja and Isto E ( the most read magazines in Brasil).

On Veja he was on the cover ( forgot the month), and on Isto E, He was considered to be one of the five Brasilians of the year 2007. One little detail, the votes he got were from the Isto E readers, Brasilians all over the country.

His name is Joaquim Barbosa. He is the Minister of the Brasil Supreme Federal Court. He was born very poor, has eight siblings. He is Black ( in the Isto E cover picture he appears in the middle) and he is the one who is going to decide if the quotas system is constitutional or not. He is extremely intelligent and just. In the article he says that his main goal is to bridge the gap between the justice system and the population, and he does not mention any group in particular.

My impression of him while reading the article is that he sees himself as a Human Being first. I don't know but I have a feeling that he could very well have a chance for the presidential election in 2010, my father told me that a lot of people are talking really good about him now in Brasil. Lula likes him. I wouldn't be surprised, Brazilians are very unpredictable; we elected Lula didn't we, a poor northeastern emigrant.
Sorry the article is in Portuguese. Here is the link:

http://www.terra.com.br/istoe/

http://www.international.ucla....ntid=61775

I visited Brazil in 1994, and found the racial environment as I had imagined. The Whites were the "haves" and the Blacks who looked like me were the "have-nots." Concerning racism, or the lack of racism, in Brasil: It is understood that the Anglo-Saxons deem anyone with x% of so-called Negro blood is determined to be Black, whereas the Spanish (and I believe the Portugese as well) determine that anyone with x% of White blood is considered to be White. To me, those classifications are somewhat nonsensical and not based in scientific fact, but I won't go into that here.

Since that was our first trip, we stayed primarily in Rio, and I did notice that in the majority of the restaurants along the beach, the waiters were White, or very light-skinned mullatoes, and the kitchen help and busboys were Black. As were the desk clerks at the hotel, White, and the porters, maids, doormen were Black. So, I felt right at home in an environment that reminded me of the USA until the mid 20th century. No matter how it is couched in sociological double-speak, the fact remains that Brasil is indeed racist. The darker-skinned people do not have the same opportunity as their White or near-White cousins. And, that seems to be the case the world over.

After we were there a few days, we ventured into the city proper and I found the people to be very warm and friendly despite our language differences. I'm glad I speak a smattering of Spanish as that benefited me greatly. Speaking of language; it's curious to me the following: I live in Newark, NJ with a large Portugese population and a sizable Brasilian populaton as well. One day my Portugese cab driver and I were talking and the subject of languages came up. Specifically: Portugese spoken in Portugal and Brasilian Portugese. Well, the driver argued with me and told me that Brasilian Portugese is not "real" Portugese, to which we had further discussion. I could tell by his demeanor and subtle comments that he was not at all fond of Brasil or Brasilians. I wondered, was this man a racist, or not?

I could tell by his demeanor and subtle comments that he was not at all fond of Brasil or Brasilians. I wondered, was this man a racist, or not?

Your Portuguese cab driver was certainly a racist. Uneducated and probably brought up under the ruthless dictatorship of Salazar. A real white trash in Portugal and you can find such people even in your country. The worst about such "white Trash" in Portugal is that they even discriminate the "White" Brazilians who are educated. I don't know if you are aware that our dentists were and are still having problems in practicing their profession in Portugal.

BTW, was that cab driver able to speak passable English?

In my opinion, Portugal , Spain and Italy suffered too much under the influence of fascist dictators like Salazar,Franco and Mussolini respectively. Many from these countries emigrated to Brazil that received them with open arms. Nevertheless, these people like to criticize Brasil and the Brasilians, but they love to steal our wealth and take it back to Europe.

However, I am glad that you were treated prim and proper by the Brasilians during your visit to our country in 1994. Hope you will come again.

Joao,

You're right on about everything. The cab driver did speak very good, but accented English. As an afterthought, I wonder what he says about us American Blacks.

I have heard of the dentists' and other professionals problems in Portugal, and it seems as though I remember speaking with someone who was having a "racial dilemma" in Portugal. It seems as though in many former colonialist countries in Europe they are having problems with their immigrants from the former colonies; the UK, France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and even though the US is not European or a colonizer per se, you know the difficulties we're having.

Last year I took a course toward my Masters in Criminal Justice, and the immigration situation came up in the class. The class was on-line with about 30 students, the majority were White I'm sure. Well, when I voiced my opinions about so-called "illegal" immigrants and the European colonizers, well, the class certainly gave me a sound whipping. Basically, I told them they want to keep America "White for the Whites" and the European countries are getting their just desserts after years of plundering and raping foreign lands. My thing was also big corporations sucking the world dry with their greed. So I guess it got to be too much, because even the professor at one point told me that "those people who people who don't like this country (America) should perhaps move elsewhere in the world." Joao, it's truly sad that these ideas of innate superiority are so ingrained.

Anyway, I did enjoy Brasil, and am looking to go there in '08. everytime t gets cold here, the esire is even stronger for Brasil.

Take care.

Spanish America has lots of immigrants either from Spain, Italy, Germany, China, etc and still in the US they are all called "Hispanic". Why are you whining about not being an Anglo-Saxon? Unless you have been born in a non-English speaking country, you are an Anglo-saxon. An American Black is an Anglo-saxon, because he thinks, sees, talks, and was educated with anglo-saxon values. That's why American Blacks are so obsessed with race, they are as obsessed as they were taught to be.

Yes, eugenics was worldwide, but the supreme form of bulls**t is anglo-saxons denying their importance in such a movement, either from popular support or scientific production. You played a major role in it. The level of segregation developed in English-speaking countries bordered the fanaticism, and this has greatly affected their culture until today. So much that even today the "anglo-saxons" (even the black ones) can't see people as people, they only see colors and races. A New York times article recently when mentioning the political situation of Latin America said that the discontentement brought the opportunity for people of "darker skin" to raise to power (referring to the uneducated proto-socialist-dictators Evil Morales and Hugo Chavez) WTF! You are f**king sick! And do you still want to give us lessons about "racism"? Hahahahahahahaha.

Let's see Brazil. I don't buy this "branquamento" bulls**t because under the light of the XIX century racial theories it would mean the extermination of the white. Why, in the name of God, if they were so racist would they do the exact thing that would mean the end of the one race they were trying to defend? This doesn't even make sense. In the "scientific racism" branqueamento is racial suicide. For what I could read they were just trying to adapt the Brazilian reality to the scientific beliefs of the time, because by the scientific racism canons Brazil was a country of degenerate mongrels and blacks.

There's a fundamental difference between Brazil's approach to the problem during that period and the rest of world, although Brazil, as a part of the same world, wasn't immune to it. Don't even try to compare it with South Africa, the US or Europe.

Culturally the situation today only reflects the decisions made back then. The variety of definitions for colors in Brazil is a healthy sign that we are on the right path and evidence that we are light-years ahead of you. The non-importance of race in everyday's life gives a unique opportunity of seeing people for what they are.

can you call eugenics an "anglo-american" ideology, other than your own ignorance and prejudices?

Yes, the very racial segregation issue was transformed into some sort of citizen's duty in those countries. See "The Passing of the Great Race" (or something like that) from Madison Grant. Perhaps that work isn't very scientific even by the standards of the past, but it gives a glimpse of the popular beliefs back then and some of those beliefs still exist today.

Comparing Brazil to the US in these matters is just a silly attempt of a few bigots that can't live with the fact that Brazil actually do things right. It even seems that you need to discredit Brazil in order to feel better yourselves.

I just wanted to point it out the article I saw both on Veja and Isto E ( the most read magazines in Brasil)


Thanks for the links. Do you know when he'll be back to L.A? I live 30 minutes from UCLA. It would be such a pleasure to meet him.

The more this cultural dialectic out of the marxist centers in usa come into brasil the more of the troubles will be seen all in the last periods of the time the come from the usa these racial political constrictions of now the affirmative action which is a lie and so on therefore you bring an injury to the land and to the peoples of the country and are not a helpful.

"In my opinion, Portugal , Spain and Italy suffered too much under the influence of fascist dictators like Salazar,Franco and Mussolini respectively. Many from these countries emigrated to Brazil that received them with open arms. Nevertheless, these people like to criticize Brasil and the Brasilians, but they love to steal our wealth and take it back to Europe."

Why is it that when you & other brazilians speak of the colonizers among others, you only talk about the stolen wealth, what stolen wealth? when did they steal anything from you? Other than what your own government has stolen from all of you for the last 185 years.
I don't believe they steal anymore that yourselves, they work & make a living, save theri money, they're not waiting for handouts.
After all your a produc t of them, i guess you never stole anything?
Even the rest of latin america has grown up from that, the probleem with brazil is their still stuck on themselves.
Why don't you change your name.

"Your Portuguese cab driver was certainly a racist. Uneducated and probably brought up under the ruthless dictatorship of Salazar. A real white trash in Portugal and you can find such people even in your country. The worst about such "white Trash" in Portugal is that they even discriminate the "White" Brazilians who are educated. I don't know if you are aware that our dentists were and are still having problems in practicing their profession in Portugal."

I'm sure that he is no more racist than all of you are against anyone that is different of you or has something better than you, in typical brazilian fashion, it's never ok for others to criticize you, but ok for you to do so.
How dare anyone say anything against brazuca's.
I have been to brazil & i saw how disrespectful,uneducated & RUDE most of you all especially towards the Portuguese, whether tourists or not. Since most of you seem to live under the premise that you just are so cureous, polite, etc. I don't see where & how.
The way i was raised, i respect & treat everyone with respect & politeness unless they do the contrary to me. but i guess that is not taught by brazilian parents. Because it is very prevalent. to the point of being an obsession.
You talk about trash, no one is more trash & filth than most of you, and believe me i saw plenty of it while there. So why don't you & the rest of your filth clean up your act.
After all everyone there likes to say how they are italian & german,e tc. As if it's great to want to be part of tee cold blood criminals of the 20th century, who stole everything from everyone they could get their hands on or destroy for that matter. I laughed so loud, especially when people don't even realize their latin names speak for themselves & when called to task, they don't know that to say. Is that the educated people you talk about, it must be the great educational system that teaches them that; because after all if anyone else had colonized the country, they wouldn't be poor, stupid or ignorant, brazilians would all be rich, educated, etc. just like the usa, cananda, australia, suriname, the caribbean.
I don't know of wheer shagrila is or exists, maybe it would be brazil.

i am very familiar with the NJ area you talked about above, but bear in mind the neighborhood has changed for the worst since the brazilians came in, brazuca's are now the majority.
It seems to me that you're not aware of the way brazuca's speak of the portuguese and others, assk anyone who has close contact with them & know them for what they truly are & the disdain people have for them.
the way they go around getting over people, cheating, whoring ,etc.
You should know the stories of not paying rent, crime, etc.
At least whereever the portuguese go, they are respected, hard working people who get ahead, that's why they resent them.
they can't be them, be like them, so bring them down.
After all it's the same concept as to african/caribbean blacks when compared to the us balcks, totally different mindset.

And also all you have to do is rad all the articles, comments, etc. and you should get a clearer picture of what those people are, not what you think i bet.

First of all, f**k YOU! I work and, most important of all, think a lot, and I know some Americans but none so obnoxious and hateful such as yourself, thank God. The Brazilians that go to live in the US cleaning toilets are exactly what they do, s**t. They would be cleaning toilets in Brazil if they were here, but they chose to do that in dollars and you employ them!

This bulls**t about Brazilians are just that, bulls**t from yet another bigot who wastes his own time and ours with crap. Who cares about what you think? Where is your government to fix the immigration problem? What you are whining about is the sheer demonstration of incompetence from the authorities and conivence of your own countrymen! You need those toilet cleaners, so don't whine about it. Accept it or kick them out, make up your mind.

Portuguese are bigots, just like the rest of Europe, and always were, but who cares? As long as they stay in the s**tty country of theirs we can get along just fine. There's absolutely nothing they "have" that we could ever want. I would say that's quite the opposite, since many NGO retards, especially Europeans, seems to have a special interest in Brazil.

Why do every piece of trash around the world feel entitled to point the finger at Brazil for anything? I am so f**king tired of outsmarting these asses. Any fastfood employee feels important enough to say a lot of crap about what they don't know. Save your hate for yourself. Consume yourself in hate if you will. Nothing will change the wretched rest of human being that you are!

As if it's great to want to be part of tee cold blood criminals of the 20th century,

... If it weren't by the Germans? You sound like an angry woman that was cheated by the husband. Every f**king time those retards just have to use the Germans as an example of evil. I will tell you this about Germans, they never tried to teach me "tolerance", "multicultural society" or anything like that. Everyone I knew were well aware of history and didn't pretend to be a model for anything or to have some higher moral.

Related to the topic of racism it is a very tough competition. We have Anglo-saxons, Germans and fascists, and also South Africa competing to see who was the most criminal of all times. I wouldn't be so quick to accuse them of anything when your own country practiced segregation by law until the 60s and still have it "unofficially" until today in the form of "ethnicity recognition". That's what it is. Forcing people to recognize "who they are" is just a way of a drawing a clear line between peoples and say "this is where I am, and this is where you will stay". If we can learn something with the US is how to change in order to keep everything the same.

After all you had no choice in ending segregation. The position of leader after of WWII gave you no option otherwise you would have no moral to "teach" Europe about democracy and equality. I can imagine how it was to see someone that allegedly fought for freedom to practice many of the horrors that the Nazis would support at home, hipocrisy fits the US perfectly.

You are f**king pathetic, you live in a dream world.

"First of all, f**k YOU! I work and, most important of all, think a lot, and I know some Americans but none so obnoxious and hateful such as yourself, thank God. The Brazilians that go to live in the US cleaning toilets are exactly what they do, s**t. They would be cleaning toilets in Brazil if they were here, but they chose to do that in dollars and you employ them!"

Such beautiful words from a proper/educated (chin, chin, chin) brazilian that thinks alot & knows some americas, well you don't know all of them, it seems that one's you do know are probably like you. Your the typical obnoxious, delusional as you allways seems to be, who can't accept the facts, truth & in typical brazilian fashion as to constantly go against the wind of what you and most people know to be truth.
Yes, dollars are still worth cleaning toilets hear, but not the real?
At least your filth comes hear to clean toilets a syou say, yes, for dollars, because they wouldn't do it in brazil, they couldn't even get employment to clean the latrine that you & they ar so much part of .
After all since you read & know so much much brazil is consider the "latrine" of south america, i wondrr why?

"Portuguese are bigots, just like the rest of Europe, and always were, but who cares? As long as they stay in the s**tty country of theirs we can get along just fine. There's absolutely nothing they "have" that we could ever want. I would say that's quite the opposite, since many NGO retards, especially Europeans, seems to have a special interest in Brazil".

Your right about that they are bigots just like everyone else in europe & the rest of the world just like you, i guess brazilian bigotry is different than all the other bigotry, you sure do a good job of trying to hide it.
You talk about their s**tty country, what's s**tty about it? Most of your s**tty countrymen are going there for better jobs, better pay, jut like here. If you're country is so great, at what? Poverty,crime,womanizing, etc.
At least when the europeans went to the "jungle" they were motivated to make something of themselves & work hard, etc.
that's something that appears that you "lack" & your countrymen, stop being a momma's boys,& start behaving & thinkinbg like real men. which doesn't appear that you are(if you're a man).
After all i speak from experience i have lived in your jungle & live here, and to date i didn't see any european's espcially the portuguese paying rent or working for a brazilian, the taxi driver was an exception.
They do very well, and they're not stealing just like the japanese, they are something in brazil, what happened to you and the rest of you?
think about it if they had never gone to your "junglecountry" you wouldn't be here today to be n this forum

"... If it weren't by the Germans? You sound like an angry woman that was cheated by the husband. Every f**king time those retards just have to use the Germans as an example of evil. I will tell you this about Germans, they never tried to teach me "tolerance", "multicultural society" or anything like that. Everyone I knew were well aware of history and didn't pretend to be a model for anything or to have some higher moral."

"... If it weren't by the Germans? You sound like an angry woman that was cheated by the husband. Every f**king time those retards just have to use the Germans as an example of evil. I will tell you this about Germans, they never tried to teach me "tolerance", "multicultural society" or anything like that. Everyone I knew were well aware of history and didn't pretend to be a model for anything or to have some higher moral."

Listen you pice of "s**t" the onlyreason i used the germans as an example ws to hilkite how idiots like you in brazil always like to make believe that your decendants are german, italians, etc.
and i found it funny that people would want to equate themselves with being "german" because after all no one in Europe & the wold thinks highl of them considering the "holocaust" they have that honor & distinction, so why would people like yourself thing that it's such a great thing is beyond me, but as i said b4, it's the lack of education &understanding & tolerance among the ignmorant like you. Italians what is so great about them in brazil, they are no differnet than any other european, so tell me you pice of s**t, all you seem to know is to rant even when peopl speak about the truth/reality of your jungle. After all you don't belong there either, the indegineous do, so whatever your background is, leave & go to that country, a*****e.
AFter all they germans don't need to teach tolerance as you say, they would just get rid of you. Maybe your country criminals learned it fromthem, isn't that they do,when you wnat to get rid of someone, just talk to the trafficante, etc. & it will be/get done.
Also i hate to disappoint you, i was not cheated on, but then again that's a subject you should know all about to well, that is common place in your "jungle", everyone is rolling inthe "hay" & pretending that they are a goody to shoes.
I have said b4 & i will say it again, you & your jungle country are nothing more than a dysfunctional pieces of waste tht are good for nothing, oh i takethat back, complain, criticize, that's what you're good at.
after all if you're on this forum all the time, you will see that those opinions are among many, not just me.
So go back to cleaning your toilet, you sure nee it.

At least when the europeans went to the "jungle" they were motivated to make something of themselves & work hard, etc.

You are just another ignorant f**k, because you don't even know history. You fantasize some romantic version of colonization (they used to beat the slaves to do the job for them, that's a very hard work). Colonization was about greed and violence everywhere and most of those settlers were illiterate dumb f**ks (the funniest thing is that some imported slaves were muslims and knew how to read and write, i.e., the slaves were smarter than the masters).

the wold thinks highl of them

No, that's what you think of them. The world thinks that the US are the biggest motherf**kers that ever existed. If you continue to recrimite Brazilians for no hating Germans I will start thinking that you are jealous.

"You are just another ignorant f**k, because you don't even know history. You fantasize some romantic version of colonization (they used to beat the slaves to do the job for them, that's a very hard work). Colonization was about greed and violence everywhere and most of those settlers were illiterate dumb f**ks (the funniest thing is that some imported slaves were muslims and knew how to read and write, i.e., the slaves were smarter than the masters)."

What romantic notion am i intertaining, colonization was the same all over the world, egardless of who ws at the forefront.
Slaves ere brought in to do thr work, yes, but te colonizers also had to work to bring them in, etc.
And after all slavery is alive &well in your country as well as other parts of the world(africa) practiced by brazilians & africans alike. Colonizers of their time had to do what they had to do by whatever means, that's what real MEN do.
What do you think that they shoul've done? & How?
The Slaves (muslims) were smarter than the Masters & knew how to read & write, that's great, but that never got anyone to get ahead of them, did they?
Look at you you can read & write, & so do most of your countrymen, it doesn't seem to seve them well.
At the end of the day the master is still in control, why?

"No, that's what you think of them. The world thinks that the US are the biggest motherf**kers that ever existed. If you continue to recrimite Brazilians for no hating Germans I will start thinking that you are jealous."

No it's not what i think of them, that's the way the world feels about them, why would i be jealous of a cold blooded/evil people, only a true dysfunctional person/people like you would think otherwise.
How many countries speak German & or Italian?
I am not jealous of them nor of the "FILTH" THAT YOU REPRESENT, everytime i went to a an open air FEIRA, i got repulsed at the filth & lack of higiene. This seems to be what brazilians are proud of of LIKE YOU.
Lets put it this way I rather be part of a Portuguese and an ARgie anytime than be part of you.
After all they conduct themselves in an exemplatory manner wherever they go, & they have done along with the spanish what the anglo/saxon world wa sunable to do, and that they can't take away; can't say that about your ilk.
And at the end of the day, they are ashamed that you speak their language & degrade it.
Read your newspapers in your country and abroad, they speak for themselves.
Get over it you "COCONUT" HEAD, YOUR JUNGLE IS NOT NOR WILL IT EVER BE WHAT THE U.S. IS, "WE ARE THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD" 'WHAT THIS COUMTRY HAS ACCOMPLISH IN IT'S 200 YEARS IS UNPRECEDENTED."
SO KEEP LIVING IN YOUR DILUSIONAL/DENIAL/DREAM WORLD. LET ME KNOW WHEN THE FREAM IS OVER BARANGA MAL EDUCADO.
IT DOESN' TAKE MUCH TO SEE YOUR TRUE COLORS COME OUT DOES IT?

i'M STARTING TO THINK THAT YOUR PREDECESSORS WERE "SPANIARDS".

JUST SOMETHING I THOUGH OF, IN ONE OF "lula" PRIOR SPEECHES A # OF YEARS AGO HE SAID SOEMTHING VERY IMPORTANT.
THE TIME HAS COME FOR US TO STOP BLAMING THE EUROPEANS/COLONIZER FOR OUR DISMAY, WE HAVE TO LOOK TO OURSELVES FOR NOT TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE MISSED OPPORTUNITIES.
SINCE YOU SEEM TO BE AN EDUCATED MEN/WOMAN BY BRAZUCA'S STANDARDS YOU SHOULD KNOW THT OR HAVE NO PROBLEM LOOKING FOR THE SPEECH.

SOME ENIGHTENING ARTICLES FOR YOU TO READ:
AFTER ALL YOU'E THE ONE THAT HAS SAID PREVIOUSLY THT BRAZUCA'S ARE COMING BACK TO BRAZIL, I WONDER TO WHAT?

http://www.iadb.org/NEWS/articledetail.cfm?artid=3095&language=En

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34310

I'm not sure that you have traveled to other countries other than Brazil, but if you have not, go to europe, latin america, etc. & see the difference in the quality & standard of life, and the behavior of it's people, what europe & the u.s.a. considers poor is not the same as in brazil.
A person on welfare(white & black) in the u.s. lives better than a factory worker in brazil.

Here's a very interesting article about race in brazil, which you claim doesn't exist.

http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=5b8d531de860940110af2433244782c6

Let me ask your thoughts on this:

If the Portuguese hadn't discovered brazil & colonize it, how do you think brazil would be like today & would you be part of it?
In your " dream shangrila" what other colonizer woul've you had prefer to have discovered & colonize brazil? & why?

Because after all i don't know of any country in the new world w/the exception of the u.s/canada that was happy with their discovery, th aussies & the aborigines dilemma, etc; brazil & their resentment, rest of latin america w/the spanish, suriname & the caribeean islands w/the dutch, etc.?
The asians have their own dilemmas, Japan & other countries w/china, etc.

As you had stated b4 in one of your previous posts, the anglo/saxon were/are the worst racists on earth which is common knowledge, so how woul've you have like it to turn out?

Stop flooding the forum with your whining.Oh boy, he showed an article written by an American about Americans trying to create the same problems they have there in Brazil. Hahaha.

Racism is such a pillar of the American identity and existence that even after the end of the segregation you still practice it! You just can't see others as human like yourself, you always think in terms of race and how race affects that person's life. You are hopeless. f**k off racist scum!

Hi CT,

This is a Historical Fact, and I don't know if you know it. The only time that the people of the United States ever had to emigrate, they did so after the Civil War.
Now, guess to where they went. That's right, believe it or not, they went to Brazil. After the South lost the Civil War.

The Brasilian Goverment at the time gave them land and help them. They founded A city called "Americana", it's in the country side of the Sao Paulo State. If you ever go to Brazil again go there and check it out. I heard that they still celebrate their ancestors coming to Brazil. One of our justices ( a very powerful lady) Ellen Gracie Northfleet, her grandparents were confederate soudiers. Jimmy Carter's family also went to Brazil. This Historical fact is very well documented, it will be easy for you to research.

Yes, I heard that brazilians are coming back, I myself know a lot of them, and thanks for have had us. These Brazilians learned a lot from this culture, and I tell you what, they are going to contribute imensily to the Brazilian society. I believe that everyone who exposes themselves to any different culture; they are forever changed and in my opinion for good.

I'm sorry you had bad experiences with Brazilians in the U.S.

Peace

Hi,
I'm sorry but I don't know the next time Joaquim Barbosa is going to participate in the UCLA Panel. He is going to be very busy I guess when judging the constitutionality of the quotas system.

Peace

First ofall i don't see any quotas on how many posts once can post, you are no one to tell me what topost & to whom & if i'm flooding the forum, you should be talking?
I will post whenever i feel like it, you piece of crap.
It seems that the coward in you can't handle the truth, you clearly only like to rant & ignore the facts & or answer them.
That you are right, i know brazuca's tyle, yoy want to have the last word & make it seem as if you're the one that's left standing, i got news for you it hadn't happened & it's not going to happen, get it..
If any body is racist scum, it is you FILTH, i would hardly consider myself a racist, i see things for what they are, not what i would like them to be, i have friends of all colors & respect them all the same, you're the one that wants to believe that we look down on color, far from it.
Your the one that seems to be obsessed iwth it along with the rest of the jungle.
Tell me how many naids in brazil are white? Unless she's your maid?
So why don't you do yourself a favor you're the one that can leave this forum, no one will miss you.
Get involve in politics, look at LULA, he made it, brazil is a country of opportunities right?
I'm sure you'e capable of doing great things &then you should change the language to Spanish, i'm sure the Portuguese will be glad of that, not that you would care, because your surname is probably german, italian, polish, or arabic.

About the article, it isn't about the author, it's to hilite to you tht the people on the forum were brazilian blacks talking about the race issue that you deny exists, but then again you're not black are you? No your a "pardo" which is ok, that's what the article is about.

So please tell me what shangrila world would you prefer to be in?

Some othr enlighten reading tht i'm sure you will be prouf of such as them, but then again why shouldn't they be proud of their past & accomplishments just like the rest of the old world, no one has been able to match it, that is what i call MEN:

http://www.asia.si.edu/EncompassingtheGlobe/

So tell me what has your jungle country past or present contributed to the world? I have asked you this question b4 which you did not answer because there is no answer right?
Lets see, the natural beauty & resources were not cerated by brazuca's, soccer was not invented by brazuca's, what was?
At the end of the day, what brazuca's (yuca's) seem to be good is to make alot of noise, distort, being sell outs (they'll sell their mother if they have to) bite the hand that feeds them, etc. but that doesn't get the job done, ACTION does.

i have friends of all colors & respect them all the same,

Hahaha, isn't it hillarious that even when Americans try not to look racist they look even more racist? Hahahahahahaha. So your friends aren't people, they are people of color? Hahahaha. So you respect them all the same, why wouldn't you?

You make such a big deal of tolerating other's existence as if it deserved a pat on the back! It's hillarious. I am sure that where you live that is a real achievement! Hahahahahahaha.

So tell me what has your jungle country past or present contributed to the world?

We have created the very first multiracial-monocultural (all in one) society the world has ever seen. You are light years behind us.

I believe that everyone who exposes themselves to any different culture;

Let me guess, that's the only culture of you know other than Brazil's? Haha. Clever individuals would separate the good things from the bad things. You don't, therefore you are just another "hispanic" trying to fit in, but not very smart.

i have friends of all colors & respect them all the same

This should be put in a picture right at the top of the site to remember all of the American notion of race. So you distinguish your friends by color and associate values to it? Wouldn't that be exactly what racists do, but instead of neutral values they would use negative values?

I am sure you must be a real American hero. Haha.

A neo-nazi distinguish people by race and associate values to them. An American distinguish people by race and associate values to them. What's the difference?

"Hahaha, isn't it hillarious that even when Americans try not to look racist they look even more racist? Hahahahahahaha. So your friends aren't people, they are people of color? Hahahaha. So you respect them all the same, why wouldn't you? "

I never said they wer not people , you'er saying tht & twisting things around as i expected, they are people just like m, you & every other humban being on earth, they just happen to be people of a different color, after all they are not aliens from outerspace, so how else would i describe anyone that is different, whethrr white, color,mulatto, yellow, it's only a description on my book, although that may be hard for you to believe or pathom.

"You make such a big deal of tolerating other's existence as if it deserved a pat on the back! It's hillarious. I am sure that where you live that is a real achievement! Hahahahahahaha."

Yes, not only where i live but in the entire country as again it may be hard for you to believe or understand, people of all walks of life, colors, etc. get the same respect at the end of the day regardless of who they are. You may say that's what occurs in your country, but i beg to differ, i saw it. You can talk all you want, but reality speaks for itself.

"We have created the very first multiracial-monocultural (all in one) society the world has ever seen. You are light years behind us. "

That's according to you, so the question is thanks to who? Who started it all?
At the end of the day you should even be thankful of where you were born & be part of he meta-race your so proud of & the language you do not speak.

" A Brazilian: We have created the very first multiracial-monocultural (all in one) society the world has ever seen. You are light years behind us."

And how has that contributed to the world? In what fashion?

Adriana
written by A Brazilian, 2007-12-15 20:00:00
"I believe that everyone who exposes themselves to any different culture;"

Let me guess, that's the only culture of, you know other than Brazil's? Haha. Clever individuals would separate the good things from the bad things. You don't, therefore you are just another "hispanic" trying to fit in, but not very smart."

Just another Hispanic trying to fit in? And what are you? Aren't brazilians part of Hispanic Latin America, the last time i checked brazil was in hispanic america, so are you not hispanic now too?
Isn't that what you do also, seperte the bad & good, you only answer what suits you, you have no answers for the majority of the questions, you just rant, go in circles.
Let me know when you're moving what ancestors country are you immigrating to BITCH?

Wow, it seems as though some of us are very touchy. CT to be sure. No matter how the Portugese and other Whites are elevated as being the paradigms of culture, grace, and knowledge, I think they have brought more misery on mankind than any other group.

I maintain that when I was in Brasil, I was treated very well by my dark brothers and sisters, whereas, from the White Brasilians, I did get some "shade" as they thought, before I opened my mouth, that I, too was Brasilian. It's very simple, White Europeans can be, and often are, racist f**ks, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that. But, now their comfort zone is being threatened by the "dark people" and they can't stand that and are becoming afraid. I say, the young people in Brasil are the key to the future, and hopefully they will have the opportunity, through education, to make the difference.

I believe CT made reference to my area of Newark and how the Brasilians, rob, don't pay rent, etc. Well, CT have you ever investigated the reasons for such aberrant behavior? I suppose not, because I see all you're good for is berating and denigrating.

Peace.

"Wow, it seems as though some of us are very touchy. CT to be sure. No matter how the Portugese and other Whites are elevated as being the paradigms of culture, grace, and knowledge, I think they have brought more misery on mankind than any other group."

And the above is according to you? because you had an experience in brazil w/ the whites you're blaming it on the Portuguese, the whites's in brazil are not necessarily portuguese. How ignorant can you be? It seems to me that you've been brainwashed by the brazuca's, their pathological lying is constant.
Have you travelled to the rest of south america & look at the misery the spanish brought & the misery the british brought to India & the islands, the French in Haiti, etc.
You're really showing how truly ignorant you are.
You should be glad that you were born in the u.s.a & the great strides people of all color have made inthis country, not easy at times, but made it.
I suggest you travel more, read more & stop hanging around Newark, Nj, you're not going to learn much as it seems.

"I believe CT made reference to my area of Newark and how the Brasilians, rob, don't pay rent, etc. Well, CT have you ever investigated the reasons for such aberrant behavior? I suppose not, because I see all you're good for is berating and denigrating. "
Peace.

I don't berate or denegrade anymore on this forum than -a brazilain- among others, i speak from experience & fact, unlike you. to visit is one thing to live there is another, i have done both.
I know the facts behind the above statement, i'm sure you truly can't back up your's.
I have known Newark since the 70's b4 the Portuguese & after, & if you're a true Newarker & know the facts, they actually saved the neighborhood, but then again i wouldn't know if that would be said around you. The neighborhood has since gone downhill, it's visible for all that wnat to see it, unless you chose to look the other way.
How great it is especially for you to blame misery on one particular group, who do you blame yours on, you studied criminal justice, do you think that your counterparts in brazil had the same opportunity.
Wake up & smell the coffee, it smells to me that you been around the program girls or boys in Newark for too long. Keep in mind they will sell you snow tires in Florida. You been brought.

maintain that when I was in Brasil, I was treated very well by my dark brothers and sisters, whereas, from the White Brasilians, I did get some "shade" as they thought, before I opened my mouth, that I, too was Brasilian. It's very simple, White Europeans can be, and often are, racist f**ks, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that. But, now their comfort zone is being threatened by the "dark people" and they can't stand that and are becoming afraid. I say, the young people in Brasil are the key to the future, and hopefully they will have the opportunity, through education, to make the difference.

It's obvious to me that you don't read the articles on this webiste, the newspapers about brazil among others, if you did, you wouldn't be saying the absurdities above.
My dear Racism exists all over the world, it is not unique to one particular group or race.
Blacks are no les sor more racists or predigist as nayone else.
Do youknow of the prejudices among american blacks & the african/caribbean blacks; how the american balcks look down on them, do you know why?

In brazil the young brazuca's are the key to the future, inmost palces inthe world that is true, but not there, do you know how low the educational system is in brazil, you don't know what you're talking about, what future, they've had their future intheir hands for 185 yrs & they can't pathom their own incompetence, so they play the blame game.
CArlo you really need to expand your horizons, opinions are not just formed based on one trip, sad to say.

how else would i describe anyone that is different

I think this question should be asked about any society to show if it is racist or not. Imagine that someone has a friend called "Joe", how would you describe it? Joe is Joe. Isn't it easy? Joe is not a category (black, white, indian, etc) but an individual. If you consider the individual first, color will be irrelevant. That's how a non-racist mind works.

It seems fashionable to accuse others than anglo-saxons as "racist" or having "prejudice" against you, just like Thaddeus accused me. For you that live in a racist society such as the US, other "peoples of color" are racist as well, after all that's what they are educated to be since they an early age. But I don't think that applies to outside Anglo-saxon world. I really don't give a s**t about you, I just think you are individually obnoxious, but not necessarily "black obnoxious" or "white obnoxious".

CT, I have traveled widely, furthermore that's not the issue. I never singled out the Portugese for being particularly racist, I include all Caucasian groups in that statement. The fact is the Whites have brought a lot of misery to many other non-Whites in the world. Of course, this does not mean all Whites are bad, because there are no absolute in life.

I've met many people like you in many places of the world; either you're an apologist for Whites and their despicable behavior or you're a self-hating dark person who wants so bad to be White that you'll go to any length to defend them. You know the term, "Uncle Tom," "Aunt Nancy, "Handkerchief Head," "Tio Tomas." Perhaps years ago people had to act like that as a defense against the horros of enslavement, but today, it doesn't fly.

CT, my friend, I suggest it is you who should expand your mind, travel more, and get some sense in your head to see the world as it really is. It appears to me that you have a one-track mind and suffer from tunnel vision.

CT, it's simple
written by A Brazilian, 2007-12-16 02:48:54
"how else would i describe anyone that is different"
I think this question should be asked about any society to show if it is racist or not. Imagine that someone has a friend called "Joe", how would you describe it? Joe is Joe. Isn't it easy? Joe is not a category (black, white, indian, etc) but an individual. If you consider the individual first, color will be irrelevant. That's how a non-racist mind works.

-NO that's how your mind works & you like to make it seem as if everything white people see is in terms of color, not necessarily, that can be said about your country also.
If i am meeting someone that i have never met b4 & someone needs to describe themselves to me or anyone, color will be one of them, wouldn't be. If someone is short/tall, blonde/black hair & if color is present then it is said; that is done all over the world, so accordign to you if someone describes you as a "small" person they are racists.
In your country people desctibe thmselves base on shade when asked, so what do you call that-non-racism?

"It seems fashionable to accuse others than anglo-saxons as "racist" or having "prejudice" against you, just like Thaddeus accused me. For you that live in a racist society such as the US, other "peoples of color" are racist as well, after all that's what they are educated to be since they an early age. But I don't think that applies to outside Anglo-saxon world. I really don't give a s**t about you, I just think you are individually obnoxious, but not necessarily "black obnoxious" or "white obnoxious".

I, give the same s**t about you baranga chifrado/a, you should travel around the world & then you will see tht racism is not unique to anglo/saxons, whether you like it or not.

Response
written by Carlo, 2007-12-16 11:45:54
"CT, I have traveled widely, furthermore that's not the issue. I never singled out the Portugese for being particularly racist, I included all Caucasian groups in that statement. The fact is the Whites have brought a lot of misery to many other non-Whites in the world. Of course, this does not mean all Whites are bad, because there are no absolute in life."

For you to make the statement you made above that the portuguese had brought more misery than anyone else, shows to me although that you claim you travelled, then obviously you haven't read enough, to say that implies that they are more Racists than the other colonizer or ruthless. Totally to the contrary.
So if you so feel please enlighten me with any article as to how the portuguese colonizer brought any more misery to the new world as compare to the others.
On the conbtrary the new world benefited greatly especially the portuguese colonies.
And for the record although youmay think tht i am portugese i am not, but know plenty of them among others & the area you refer to among others.
And yes i do have a high regard & repect for them just like others believe it or not, but when i see unwarramted bashing / ignorant statement s such as yours, then i feel compel to answer.


"I've met many people like you in many places of the world; either you're an apologist for Whites and their despicable behavior or you're a self-hating dark person who wants so bad to be White that you'll go to any length to defend them. You know the term, "Uncle Tom," "Aunt Nancy, "Handkerchief Head," "Tio Tomas." Perhaps years ago people had to act like that as a defense against the horros of enslavement, but today, it doesn't fly.

No, i am not an apologist for anyone white or black, what i am for is that Men/People regardless of race, ethnicity, etc. are all capable of the same things & world history has proven that. So just because the whites have dominated & have had the power does not mean that others in this world (non-whites) are not as ruthless.
At the end of the day Men will be Men, Power, greed, conquest is what drives Men irrelevant of color.
So read as to what's going on in AFrica / India, caribbeanetc. & see how ther own treats them, the abuses, etc.
Oh, that's right they learned it from the white men?

"CT, my friend, I suggest it is you who should expand your mind, travel more, and get some sense in your head to see the world as it really is. It appears to me that you have a one-track mind and suffer from tunnel vision."

I have travelled contrary to your assertion, it seems to me that in your travels you didn't absurb much, idon't have a one-track mind ^ or tunnel vision, that's what -A brazilain- seems to suffer from; he/she can't even acknowledge his own race dilemmas in his country. I think the word DENIAL comes to my mind.

"I believe CT made reference to my area of Newark and how the Brasilians, rob, don't pay rent, etc. Well, CT have you ever investigated the reasons for such aberrant behavior? I suppose not, because I see all you're good for is berating and denigrating."

I'm sure i know the true reasons behind the bove as compared to you, i know what you're insinuating(race/color), couldn't be further from the truth.
When they came to the neighborhood, tehy wer ewelcomed with open arms, they themselves brought into their own dilemma with their 3rd world/uneducated small menalities/lack of respect thinking tht they are going to tell/show the landlord's what they can & cannot do in their own property, & you see what happens it only takes a few rotten apples to spoil it for others.
Ask any homeowner in that neighborhood about them & i'm sure you will come away with the same answer.

CT, I wasn't insinuating anything, if I must say something I say it without "dressing" it up or talking in vague terms as others are so prone to do. Apparently you know nothing of the dynamics that cause people to act in a particular manner; the denial of decent jobs, higher rents than Whites, lack of the overall same opportunities than Whites, and the list could go on and on and on. Any immigrant to this country I applaud because they come here to make better lives for themselves and their families.

I am originally a New Yorker, not a Newarker, but when I moved here I was under the mistaken impression that the Brasilian culture was in synch with the Portugese culture. I was indeed ignorant until I went to Brasil and talked to Brasilians and Portugese here in this country. It was then that my eyeswere opened to the disparities. Again, and I don't care how much you scream and protest, Caucasians are responsible for much of this racist s**t today, yesterday, and tomorrow. If you are White, you probably cannot see it, and if you are a person of color it's possible that you're in deep denial.

I saw a documentary on PBS about 3 months ago about a pro-Black movement in Brasil, and there was something about the schools as well. It was enlightening and I do realize there's a long way to go, but my hats go off to all in the documentary.

Finally, CT, yes, there is crap going on all over the world, some racist, some not. It's mostly about power, that's why the powerless of the world (people of color) must unite against the powerful (mostly White or near-White).

Peace.

"I am originally a New Yorker, not a Newarker, but when I moved here I was under the mistaken impression that the Brasilian culture was in synch with the Portugese culture. I was indeed ignorant until I went to Brasil and talked to Brasilians and Portugese here in this country. It was then that my eyes were opened to the disparities. Again, and I don't care how much you scream and protest, Caucasians are responsible for much of this racist s**t today, yesterday, and tomorrow. If you are White, you probably cannot see it, and if you are a person of color it's possible that you're in deep denial."

WEll, kudos to you that you saw the disprities betweent eh Portuguese &brazilians, I myself was surprised when i went & lived there for awhile, actually i was appauled., The Portuguese people in Portugal (yes i have been there a few times)& inthe u.s. were / are not aware of such resentment, it came / comes as a surprise to many. And at the end of the they come tolive in their neighborhoods, make issue of their portuguese (whether they are or not) ancestry when they need something, they are nothing more than fake facade's & anyone that has actually dealt with them willtell you.
The portuguese at least the one's i know for the most part really don't waste much time going over what the brazuca's think or want. At the end of the day if they need a favor they will oblige(getting them jobs housing, etc., that's the kind of people they are, Reserve, ethical, honorable, noble, hardworking, respectable people. As most Eurpopeans tend to be.
AT the end of the day, they don'tlook for handouts, If youtruly know anything about brazil & u.s here the portuguese communities exist, they are very successful, especially in brazil. Look at the Japanese, language barrier, etc. And they're a success & i don't see them going around the world saying "they drop the bomb on us" how dare you? You talk about atrocities/misery. there's a great example.
So why can't the brazuca's do the same white & non-white, i'll tell you why, become they have no motivation, they are raised a mamma's boys.They're not men, they just look like men. they're alltoo busy rolling inthe way, having 2nd or 3rd wives 7 the women do the same with a smile on, they're nothing but a joke anyway.
Plenty of Africans have migrated there & here aas you should know & they work harder than them, and i'll give them 1 to 2 yrs to lift themselves up. And i applaud to them.
Now everyone is entitled to have their opinion right or wrong, but the time comes in life where we all have to grow up & stop acting like children & feel entitled to just go around & be RUDE, just because they think they have the right to do so.
That's not the way my mom raised me, nor i'm sure your's, but it appears to me & others that these people think in that fashion.

And no i don't have to scream & protest to get my point across, I partly agree with you that white's are to blame for the past, i'll give you that, but the present & future?
But then again where would you & i & the others be today, would we exist if the past hadn't been as such?
What do you say of the Middle East/Asia, you mean to tell me that at the end of the day they are doing what whites want, i think not.
Even the prophet mohammed had people killed & massacre for not believing in Islam, centuries ago, the crusaders, etc.
So i don't hink i'm biased, I just see things for what they are.
As long as there are humans on planet earth, MEN has been the same beast. Color or no color.

In your country people desctibe thmselves base on shade when asked, so what do you call that-non-racism?

No, I wouldn't. In Brazil we use a very unspecified degree of colors ranging from black to white. So we have moreno, mulato and all kinds of denominations. They are not necessarily tied to ethnicity, since italians or portuguese whose hair and eyes are dark are also morenos, but related to some global notion. This diversity of designations only highlight the fact that Brazilians try to see people by what they are and not by which ethnical group they belong to.

You, on the other hand, has a very limited set of groups you can fit in and no middle-term. So it's an impossibility to be considered something in between or even alike someone else that has a similar color but it is from another ethnicity.

That's what separates us from you.

CT, The reasons for some Brasilians' behavior cannot be solely contributed to their alleged indolence, as you put it. Remember, I said that there are no absolutes in life, and this is no exception. Not excusing bad behavior, but there are many sociological, economic, psychological reasons why people act in a certain way. I think we should all investigate and study those disciplines that address individual and group behavior, and I think if we kept an open mind we would see that things are not necessarily "black and white," meaning clear cut. I do know that when any group has been oppressed, that group can, not necessarily will, act in manners that may seem unacceptable to other parts of society. Listening to you, and you probably don't realize it, you sound very much like a racist White American who talks about Blacks (and some Puerto Ricans) by saying, "They should pull themselves up by their bootstraps," or, "The playing field is level now, what are they complaining about, what do they want?"

Granted, as adults we all must be responsible, work hard, "pull our load," and contribute something to life. However, there are those of us who have not been prepared to do that and it might take them a little longer. I would never castigate all Brasilians as you do, because no oppressed group is worthy of such vitrol. And yes, at the end of the day, we all just want to be happy, our families safe, and just live.

Don't you agree?

CT, a good question
written by A Brazilian, 2007-12-16 18:34:48
In your country people desctibe thmselves base on shade when asked, so what do you call that-non-racism?
No, I wouldn't. In Brazil we use a very unspecified degree of colors ranging from black to white. So we have moreno, mulato and all kinds of denominations. They are not necessarily tied to ethnicity, since italians or portuguese whose hair and eyes are dark are also morenos, but related to some global notion. This diversity of designations only highlight the fact that Brazilians try to see people by what they are and not by which ethnical group they belong to.

Thjat's abunch of bull & coming from you is even more bull, regardles fo what color schemes you have you stillsee color just like everyone else inthis world, what you do is camouflage it better than us as i've said before. Race is race whether i or you agree with it or not, so you can go in
circles all you want, dressed it up anyway you want as brazuca's tend to do.
AT the end of the day god created all races for the same reason i belive, only he knows why?
Youa lsso, say that you look at peopel for what they are ¬ theri ethnicity,a gain ther goes your bulls**t, when i lived there i didn't see such a thin happen, at the end of the day people like you prefer to say that you areof a german/italian/jewish decent, etc.
so if everyone is seen with the same pair of eyes tell tht to your people & your government.
I'msure if the people onthe favelas were overwhemingly white,something would be done about it.
Stop living in fantasy land, it's time, the only fantasy tht exists his inyour minds.
Us american have discoverd that along time, that dreams only come true when you fight/work for them to be.
If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, then it's a duck.

"You, on the other hand, has a very limited set of groups you can fit in and no middle-term. So it's an impossibility to be considered something in between or even alike someone else that has a similar color but it is from another ethnicity.

That is not true, that may be your view of it, but not true, here people are seeing for what they are as i said above, it's not just balck & white as you would like to make it.
We are very aware that hispanics can be jsut as white or not or in between, you may not always talk about it in your fashion, because at the end of the dfay it is really not necessary.
People here get the respect they deserve, the common man has the respect that your country has yet to afford it's citizens.
The faces of the executive branch, senate, congresses, state, local reflect their populous,what does your represent, all i saw is "white" why?
In the u.s blacks, hipanics, white's, yellow's, arabs are represented in all facets of government, can you beat that. I think Not.
Have a merry x-mas you coconut head; & youcan go ahead & call me a "hot dog", pizza" "mcdonalds" i take it as a comliment, do you know how many people mcdonalds employs inthe u.s. & the world of all colors & levels mind you?
Happy New Year.

That's what separates us from you.

"Finally, CT, yes, there is crap going on all over the world, some racist, some not. It's mostly about power, that's why the powerless of the world (people of color) must unite against the powerful (mostly White or near-White)."
Peace.

i wholeheartedly agree, people of a color should unite, their time as come, wht do you do about it?
i work w/people of all walks of life & it's interesting that the other day we were talking just about that & some concluded that at the end of the day, color or no color, even the colored political leaders at times don't want to share the power or unite the people.
Inteh u.s. vlacks have had the vote, made great strides, live well, they're in all walks of life; so tell me why is it that less than 50% of the black population votes?

CT, That's one of those unexplainable mysterys or why Blacks don't vote, but I think if also you look at the American population as a whole, many people don't vote. One theory for the Blacks and other people not voting is that they feel powerless, but that's a whole other story in itself. I have Black friends who don't vote and their excuse is, "Why vote, it doesn't matter anyway." So, I think that's also some of the mindset.

CT, "A Brazilian" doesn't need defending because he (she) takes good care of him(her)self on this thread. He/she gives as good as he/she gets. But, to you my friend, don't think that just because you live in America that you "have it made." Yes, perhaps your standard of living has been elevated and you do work hard, etc., but, if you have a dark skin, you are still considered a "n****r" by much of White society. Remember what Arsenio Hall said years ago, "I make millions of dollars and wear nice suits, but I'm still a n****r who makes millions of dollars who wears nice suits." And, let's not forget the actor Danny Glover a few years ago not being able to get a cab in Manhattan because of his color. Which happens often to people of color in NYC, and even here in Newark.

The unfortunate truth is that in America, the richest country on earth, one of the most progressive, and the world leader, we are still judged by the color of our skin. America too, is a great paradox and mystery.

Let me ask you, you claim to be well traveled and well read then why do you despise the Brasilians so?

"Let me ask you, you claim to be well traveled and well read then why do you despise the Brasilians so? "

Do not distort what i've said, Where did i say that i despise brazuca's, i whole heartedly admit that i don't much care for them,just like i don't much care for arabs, & if i come across as being to blunt or to direct then so be it.
You don't seem to realize or want to that they are even worst of their opinions of others, maybe you just haven't been privy to it.

"The unfortunate truth is that in America, the richest country on earth, one of the most progressive, and the world leader, we are still judged by the color of our skin. America too, is a great paradox and mystery."

yes, true, but you should consider you're self lucky that at the end of the day, color or no color you benefit more thatn any other country on earth.

And yes, i'm well aware of the danny glover & arsenio hall comments, & yes, it's said when it does happen, but i've also seen & read about it when it happens to others also.
At the end of the day suit or no suit, arsenio has a million or more, i never sid this is the perfect country nor do i believe that it willl ever be, at the end of the day humans are imperfect, what we can all do individually is attempt to perfect ourselves isn't?
but i'm glad i'm part of this imperfection than be perfect in other countries of the world.

"And, let's not forget the actor Danny Glover a few years ago not being able to get a cab in Manhattan because of his color. Which happens often to people of color in NYC, and even here in Newark."
And most taxi driver in newark are black or of color, so how do you explain that also?

Comments
written by Carlo, 2007-12-16 20:03:22
" I do know that when any group has been oppressed, that group can, not necessarily will, act in manners that may seem unacceptable to other parts of society. Listening to you, and you probably don't realize it, you sound very much like a racist White American who talks about Blacks (and some Puerto Ricans) by saying, "They should pull themselves up by their bootstraps," or, "The playing field is level now, what are they complaining about, what do they want?"
Granted, as adults we all must be responsible, work hard, "pull our load," and contribute something to life. However, there are those of us who have not been prepared to do that and it might take them a little longer. I would never castigate all Brasilians as you do, because no oppressed group is worthy of such vitrol. And yes, at the end of the day, we all just want to be happy, our families safe, and just live.
Don't you agree?

I agree that at the end of the day yes we all want to be happy, etc.
but what i don't agree with as i've said is no excuses should be made for people a syou put it that may take a little longer, that's just too bad. At the end of the month i'msure if you & i don't have your mortgage money the bank won't forgive it; they don't want to know your dilemma do they?
And no i don't talka bout blacks & puerto ricans as you're stating, a si've said b4 i work & know people of all alks of life, on the contrary i love black people especially africans & caribeean, it may be hard for you to pathom that, but believe me i've been friends with people of all colors & socialize alike &feel very comfortable among all as i'm sure they do next to me.
so your assertion that i'm a racist doesn't fly with me, i am not, i don't see myself as one even if you think i don't see it.
On the contrary at times i get into conversations with people that give me a 2nd look as to why i defend blacks, gays, etc.
Now i don't have to be black, or gay to understand racism or pregidist people do i?
Just as much as i go to astoria, richmond hill, queens & harlem, etc. because i like to expose myself to life,experiences, socialize, etc. whether i'm in this country or not. At the end of the day i feel i'ma richer & better person for it.

CT, I knew you were going to ask me that, and I should have answered it before you did. Anyway, the taxi drivers are Black, most from other countries, and unfortunately they have a preconceived notion of Black Americans. You know, the same old stories, they've been robbed, mugged, beat for their fares, etc. While that may be true, they cannot be selective in their fare choices. My money as a Black man spends as well as the White man's. I have had problems, especially at Penn Station in Newark, but I've also reported the ass-holes who wouldn't pick me up. In fact, one did pick me up in the middle of the night, and began to curse and terrorize me. I took him to court, and it seems as though he'd done this type of thing to other Black riders. Black on Black!
So, he was admonished and threatened with losing his licence if it happened again.

Oh yes, I do love America the land of my birth, and I do realize that I couldn't live as well anywhere else. But, a great thing about this land, we can criticize to a limit without fear of retribution. God bless America, God bless Brasil!

Peace.

Taxis
written by Carlo, 2007-12-16 23:09:38
"CT, I knew you were going to ask me that, and I should have answered it before you did. Anyway, the taxi drivers are Black, most from other countries, and unfortunately they have a preconceived notion of Black Americans. You know, the same old stories, they've been robbed, mugged, beat for their fares, etc. While that may be true, they cannot be selective in their fare choices. My money as a Black man spends as well as the White man's. I have had problems, especially at Penn Station in Newark, but I've also reported the ass-holes who wouldn't pick me up. In fact, one did pick me up in the middle of the night, and began to curse and terrorize me. I took him to court, and it seems as though he'd done this type of thing to other Black riders. Black on Black! So, he was admonished and threatened with losing his licence if it happened again."

Only in America could you have done/achieved the above & i commend you for it. I do agree that your money is as good as everyone else's & the color of your skin should have no bearing.
But bearing in mind the pre-conceived notions of the foreign taxi-drivers; does that justify the treatment, do you consider them racists?
Or just for the record how do you fell when in nyc, teh ebldg co-op/condo's boards have to approve a person based on their income, character, etc. color has nothing to do with it. Now isn't that racism, money is money, why should anyone be able to tell me whether i can live in a particular bldg or not if i have the money to buy it?
So you see as long as we acknowledge that it does exist & don't deny it, we will all be off to better understanding, because racism comes in all shapes, forms, colors, etc.

"Oh yes, I do love America the land of my birth, and I do realize that I couldn't live as well anywhere else. But, a great thing about this land, we can criticize to a limit without fear of retribution. God bless America, God bless Brasil!
Peace.

Peace, to you brother, God Bless America / Africa & the World.

CT, yes, in NYC, the coop boards must approve people, and they say it's based on income, references, character, etc. Now, whether that's racism is left open to the prospective tenant for interpretation. If they're Black and approved, good, however, if they're not approved and they're Black. Who knows? The same can be said for Whites going against a Black coop board, if they're approved good, it not, is it racism? Again, who knows. This is where the coop laws are very tricky, and they can deny you for any reason and they don't have to tell you the reason. Condos are quite another matter for there is usually no board for approval. However, condos are a bit more expensive, and I suspect it has something to do with the board (or lack of) situation.

As for the cab drivers being racist. I certainly think they are prejudiced against Black Americans. And, I must state again, if they don't want to serve everyone then they should not drive a cab. Anyway, I try to use the car services whenever I can - less headaches, usually more polite, and less bull s**t.

One thing about Brasil, Rio in particular. We all know about the horrible police death squads rounding up kids and killing them. But one of the saddest things I saw was at night, young kids taking even younger brothers and sisters going to the beach with their cardboards to sleep. It truly brought tears to my eyes. I suspect that either they were homeless or came from the favelas behind the hotel. I guess if they lived in the favela it's almost like being homeless, no?

Of course I saw this while sitting outside at night taking the night air when the prostitutes are trolling the beach. They approached me on several occasions, I said "No thank you," I didn't have the heart to tell them I'm gay. Very beautful women, I told my straight friends to leave their wives/girlfriends at home if they ever visited Brasil. Brasil and it's people are beautiful.

Peace.

"Of course I saw this while sitting outside at night taking the night air when the prostitutes are trolling the beach. They approached me on several occasions, I said "No thank you," I didn't have the heart to tell them I'm gay. Very beautful women, I told my straight friends to leave their wives/girlfriends at home if they ever visited Brasil. Brasil and it's people are beautiful."
Peace.

I already had that figured that you were gay, & your counterpart must be brazuca; but it doesn't matter to me anyway.
Wise advice toyour striaght friends on one hand but bad on the other hand, you know the aids epiemic in brazil, they don't talk much about it, but it's very high.
But in any event as i've said in a previous comment "beauty can be found in all countries of the world. But more importantly beauty is also in the eye of the beholder".

Xau

"Spanish America has lots of immigrants either from Spain, Italy, Germany, China, etc and still in the US they are all called "Hispanic". Why are you whining about not being an Anglo-Saxon?"

Oh, believe me, I think that classification is as stupid as hell, too. However, that particular brand of ignorance doesn't transform yours into wisdom. Really, A. Brazilian, can't you make a better argument than "Other people say the same dumb things I do, so that must mean I'm smart"?

"Why are you whining about not being an Anglo-Saxon? Unless you have been born in a non-English speaking country, you are an Anglo-saxon."

So let's see... Quebequois are anglo-Saxons, then, because even though French is their first language, Canada is an English speaking country? Is that your claim? Which must mean that Indians are also Anglo-saxons because India is an Englishspeaking country, as are Nigerians, for the same reason. Not to mention Australian aborigines... Your definition of "anglo-saxon", A, is so broad as to be ridiculous.

Furthermore, how do you know I was born in English-speaking country? your English is as good as mine, so I guess we can presume that you, too, were born in and English-speaking country and are thus an "Anglo-Saxon".

Face it, A: you don't have the slightest clue what Anglo-Saxon means: it's just a convenient buzz word you toss about because you feel it makes you look informed when, to anyone with the slightest knowledge of the term's real meanings, it just makes you look like one of those early 20th century eugenicists you claim to abhor.

Yes, eugenics was worldwide, but the supreme form of bulls**t is anglo-saxons denying their importance in such a movement, either from popular support or scientific production. You played a major role in it.

Who's denying that the English played a major role in eugenics? But to claim that they were the movements absolute leaders is simply ridiculous. The French were just as smitten with it and they produced many theorists just as important as the english. And the Brazilians were very enthusiatsic consumers of eugneicism and tried their very best to emulate the French and English. If they didn't succeed, it wasn't because they were racially more "democratic" in their ideology: it was because science was, in general, in a piss-poor state in Brazil as compared to France and England.

So the nut of your argument - that eugeneics somehow proves that "anglo-saxons" (however defined) are more racist than Brazilians is simply fallacious. It's the kind of fairytale made up by someone who knows little about the history of eugenics and even less about the history of Brazil.

The level of segregation developed in English-speaking countries bordered the fanaticism, and this has greatly affected their culture until today.

Repeating the same fallacies doesn't make them come true, A. While the U.S. may have preached segregation between blacks and whites from 1865 on, it didn't preach segregation between whites and indians during the same time period but ASSIMILATION and AMALGAMATION. Until your "anglo-saxon" theory od race can take that very well documented and well established histoical fact into account (as well as dozens of others from around the British and ex-British empire across time) it is and will remain simply so much bulls**t. Historical theories are not created by cherry-picking convenient facts and ignoring inconvenient ones, A, which is precisely what you're doing. you take black/whhite relations in the American south to be paradigmatic for the "anglo-saxon" world, but your comments make it obvious that you don't even fully understand the race question as a historical artefact in the U.S., let alone across the rest of the world colonized by the English.

Let's see Brazil. I don't buy this "branquamento" bulls**t because under the light of the XIX century racial theories it would mean the extermination of the white. Why, in the name of God, if they were so racist would they do the exact thing that would mean the end of the one race they were trying to defend? This doesn't even make sense. In the "scientific racism" branqueamento is racial suicide. For what I could read they were just trying to adapt the Brazilian reality to the scientific beliefs of the time, because by the scientific racism canons Brazil was a country of degenerate mongrels and blacks.

Again, simply untrue.

The theory was that "white blood" was "stronger" than black blood and that white would thus win out over black as long as the mixing was judiciously administered. And while it's obvious that you don't realize it, this theory was, in fact, supported by some of the most important U.S. racial scientists of the day. In my doctoral thesis, I have included a "race amalgamation" chart produced by ethnographers at the Smithsonian Institute in 1897 which "proves" that the "white race" will "gradually absorb" all the others. This theory was being bandied about all across the English-speaking world in the late 19th/early 20th century. I think you are misconstruing popular uses of scientific racism and presuming these to be identical with what the scientists themselves were saying. While yes, many eugenicists were indeed "racial purists", others were "miscegenationists". I'm sorry to pop your bubble, but the Brazilian eugenicists like Roquette-Pinto and Lacerda did not come up with "branqueamento" theory on their own: they were eager readers of the scientific literature of the time and the hewed to a position that was very much in evidence in international scientific debates at events such as the Eugenics Conferences.

So no, branqueamento and miscegenation weren't"Brazilian" scientific inventions. A couple of Brazilians just happened to be their most enthusiastic supporters. but it is important to remember that this support was never wholehearted and that many many, many other Brazilian scientists were just as "purist" as any "Anglo-Saxon" you care to name. Hell, just look at Paulo Prado, for instance...

so if you "don't buy this "branquamento" bulls**t", there's a good reason for that position: the historical facst contradict your nice little theory. They thus must be ignored because fascists like yourself can't have history messing up your internally consistent ethno-nationalist ideologies, now can you?

See "The Passing of the Great Race" (or something like that) from Madison Grant...

Doubtless you are aware that this book inspired Gilberto Freyre? That it was REPEATEDLY cited by Roquette-Pinto in his research into "whitening"? This book had a profound influence on Brazilian racial theorists and they by no means rejected its principal positions, so it's anybody's guess why you're bringing it up now as "proof" of a major divide between Brazilian and american forms of racism.

It should also be pointed out that the book, while popular, was vastly controversial in the U.S. and HEAVILY debated. It never became a sort of "citizens manual for racial purity" as you claim. It was highly contested back then and its popularity in some circles was matched by its repudiation in others.

Again, A. you need to learn more about Brazilian and American history. You are making claims that have all the historical depth and nuance of a superhero comic book.

As for "bigotry", A Brazilian,I simply do not see the difference between what a typical American nationalist a*****e proposes and what you popose. All you have done so far is invert right-wing American shiboleths and common prejudices, turn them on their heads, and spit them back with even more fury. Why you believe such a position will convince anyone of the "correctness" of your ideas is simply beyond me.

Again, more than anything else, you resemble a cartoon, low budget, third world version of the very bigots and racists you claim to deplore.

A pretty ironic position for a Brazilian nationalist to b in, if you ask me.

Doubtless you are aware that this book inspired Gilberto Freyre?

Haha. This is not only disrespectful with one of the brightest intellectuals Brazil ever had, but also shows the depths of your ignorance. So are you saying that Gilberto Freyre's work was based upon some Anglo-saxon racial purity ideals?

I have only this to say: hahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahaha.

It should also be pointed out that the book, while popular, was vastly controversial in the U.S. and HEAVILY debated.

If you are older than 10 then you ought to know that ideas don't exist in a vacuum. This is one book, and not the only one by the way, that reflects the commonly accepted ideas in that part of the world around that time. Even today you find traces of it in some popular beliefs of Anglo-saxon countries.

Don't transform it into a matter of "how much criticism this book received". It's not about the book nor the author, but about the popular beliefs of the time that, undeniably, were linked to scientific racism.

Cherry-picking...

Again, A. you need to learn more about Brazilian and American history. You are making claims that have all the historical depth and nuance of a superhero comic book.

Just like you? I would rather know the truth.

The theory was that "white blood" was "stronger" than black blood and that white would thus win out over black as long as the mixing was judiciously administered.

Ok, some might have believed in that, but they were minority and it wasn't applied anywhere or even taken seriously enough. Because wherever scientific racism was heavily applied it was for segregational and purist purposes.

So no, branqueamento and miscegenation weren't"Brazilian" scientific inventions. A couple of Brazilians just happened to be their most enthusiastic supporters.

You are inverting the causes and the consequences. Brazil was already a heavily mixed country by then, and, unlike your racism and bigotry would like to make us believe, the miscegenation we have didn't need to be forced by racist theories. Brazil "supported" this thesis not because they planned to build such a society, but because the reality of the country gave them no other option. So the reality came first and only then the path was taken, not the other way around.

Scientific racism was as much as a "scientific certainty" by then as "man-made Global Warming" is today. Accusing others of "supporting" something like it tells little about their real actions towards it or how fanatically they pursued it. Generalization, little care for the truth, etc, which makes me believe that when you started this "study" you had the conclusion already done and just needed to "justify" it.

historical facst contradict your nice little theory.

Hehe. Not at all. Miscegenation exists since the beginning of Brazil, now racist theories... It seems that you need to study a little more.

theories are not created by cherry-picking convenient facts and ignoring inconvenient ones

"Do as I say, but not as I do"

Try again, bigot.

I think it is interesting the reasoning adopted by the modern racists of denouncing miscigenation as a "racist tool". In other words, they want to transform the natural process of miscigenation that Brazil has since 1500 into some sort of "racist conspiracy". By reading their nonsense it even seems that around the XIX century Brazil was a country with a perfect division between black and white, and only then, by the initiative of the "evil racists", miscigenation was "started". Haha.

Isn't it too convenient to try to smear the image of Brazil as a racial democracy bringing it to the level of some KKK infested country?

We live here, we see people living together out of free will and everybody getting along just fine and all of a sudden a racist such as Thaddeus tells that according to his own notion of "history", which has a few centuries missing, everything is just a scam created by racists and miscigenation, this thing that we see happening every day, is "evil".

Oh really? These are the first steps for implementing a binary, and therefore racist, society such as the Anglo-saxon one.

Thjat's abunch of bull & ...

It's not because it's not. You write and argue like a 5 years old.

Haha. This is not only disrespectful with one of the brightest intellectuals Brazil ever had, but also shows the depths of your ignorance. So are you saying that Gilberto Freyre's work was based upon some Anglo-saxon racial purity ideals?

No. I'm suggesting that Freyre's research was deeply inspired by his concern with eugenics. If you actually READ CG&S, you'll notice that Freyre does not reject eugenics: he simply thinks that miscegenation - in the particular case of Brazil - makes eugenic sense. And what I said - and it should be extremely obvious - was that THIS position was not invented by Brazlians but was, in fact, shared by some of the main names in eugenics in the U.S. and Europe. You equate eugenics with racial purity = (un)fortunately, it was a much more complicated and contested field than that.

As for Freyre himself and the influence Grant had on him, I suggest you read Um Vitoriano nos Trópicos, by Maria Lúcia Garcia Pallares-Burke which is widely considered by Brazilian Freyre scholars to be the most important biography of the man to date.

Just because you live in the U.S., A Brazilian, doesn't mean you can't keep up with what's being produced by Brazilian scholars, you know.

You are inverting the causes and the consequences. Brazil was already a heavily mixed country by then, and, unlike your racism and bigotry would like to make us believe, the miscegenation we have didn't need to be forced by racist theories. Brazil "supported" this thesis not because they planned to build such a society, but because the reality of the country gave them no other option. So the reality came first and only then the path was taken, not the other way around.

I'm not even ATTRIBUTING causes and consequences, so how can I invert them? What I AM saying is that eugenics theory in Brazil was quite the rage in the beginning of the 20th century - whatever the causes and consequences. This is contrary to your supposition that it was a rather minor or quasi-exclusive "anglo0-saxon" ideology.

What I am also saying is that INTERNATIONALLY (and not just in Brazil), eugenicists were divided into two camps: those who supported and those who rejected miscegenation. Once again, the causes and consequences of this have no bearing on the argument at hand: whatever they were, Brazilians - and certainly not Freyre - did not develop the "original" position that race mixing was good. They simply chose sides in an already existing debate, some (like Freyre) going to the pro-miscegenation side and some (like Prado) going to the purist side.

Scientific racism was as much as a "scientific certainty" by then as "man-made Global Warming" is today. Accusing others of "supporting" something like it tells little about their real actions towards it or how fanatically they pursued it. Generalization, little care for the truth, etc, which makes me believe that when you started this "study" you had the conclusion already done and just needed to "justify" it.

Son, so far all I've seen you argue here is a rather fanatic and blindered version of old, hoary luso-tropicalist shibboleths which have been thoroughly overturned and questioned by modern Brazilian historical studies. To acusse me of "generalizing" when I am saying that one CANNOT generalize all British or Portuguese colonial history to two single ideal typical models is ludicrous in the extreme. How exactly am I "generalizing" when I say that history is a lot more complex than your model takes into consideration? How exactly am I "cherry-picking" when it's my contention that you have to look at the history of ALL the colonies at ALL times before you can come up with any sort of reasonable generalist theory?

When you compare the experience of black-white relations in the southern U.S. and Brazil fduring th 1865-1965 period and then try to stretch that into a general theory covering ALL luso and anglo colonies, everywhere, all the time, THAT is cherry picking and generalizing. What I am doing is the exact opposite: I am insisting in paying attentionto depth and nuance in the historical record where you ignore it.

So if you're going to try to stay in this conversation, kid, I suggest you come up with better arguments than "You too, only twice as much".

Hehe. Not at all. Miscegenation exists since the beginning of Brazil, now racist theories... It seems that you need to study a little more.

As a pure biological fact, miscegenation exists everywhere from time immemorial. It's elevation to a cornerstone of modernist nationalist Brazilian ideology didn't begin to occur, however, until the early 20th century.

BtW, you do know that in casa Grande e Senzala, Freyre makes the claim that no place is more LIKE Northeastern Brazil in its social and cultural makeup than the Southern U.S.? Would you like the exact quote?

We live here, we see people living together out of free will and everybody getting along just fine and all of a sudden a racist such as Thaddeus tells that according to his own notion of "history", which has a few centuries missing, everything is just a scam created by racists and miscigenation, this thing that we see happening every day, is "evil".

You know, A, you'd probably convince more people if you'd stay away from out and out lying.

I'm fairly well known in Brazilian race theory circles for CRITICIZING the blind transposition of modern U.S. American racial models on Brazilian realities. The people on this board who are familiar with my work are probably rolling on the floor laughing right now to hear me described as someone who is ideologically committed to the binary notion of race.

So I'd like to thank you, A Brazilian. If nothing else, you've just given me a sort of spurious respectability among my Afro-Brazilianist colleagues who really DO think in binary terms.

Might I trouble you to actually WRITE and PUBLISH your denunciation in an appropriate print forum in Portuguese? Denunciations such as yours are worth their weight in gold when it comes to the academic respectability of guys like me and anonymous rants on the internet just don't carry the same weight.

Let me ask anyone who's out there and cares to answer. Have Brasilians always been so obsessed with race and class? Or, is this a recent development due to the "Black Pride" movement taking place in Brasil, or is it due to the influence of the Black Consciousness movement here in the US (although I think it has somewhat diminished), or is it due to other sociological factors?
And, are all people taliking about it, or is it mainly the disenfranchised and/or those who seek to explain/rationalize racism/classism? Are the youth in the schools in Brasil equally obsessed?

Not that there's anything wrong with debate, just wondering. By the way, I forgot to ask, what is a "Brazuca," is it a perjorative term (which I suspect it is) or a term of endearment (doubtful)?

Oh yea, CT, my "counterpart" as you put it, or my lover is not Brasilian. If you know of a candidate, send him my way.

Carlo

...it's interesting to note that I'm writing here under my real name and identity. Anyone can check my record out.

Who are you, exactly, A Brazilian, and how did you come to be able to speak such wonderful English if you are simply "A Brazilian"?

You know what you come across as? An ethnic Brazilian, born and/or bred in the United States who's trying to use Brazil's supposedly "unique" racial history as a reinforcing element for a very typically modern American project of creating racial identity.

I bet you feel insulted because the gringos at your high school think you're exactly like them (even though, given your upbringing, you probably pretty much are) and all this unfocused rage against so-called "American racists" is somehow rooted in that feeling of teenage alienation.

Face it, A "Brazilian": the vast majority of Brazilians are simply nowhere near as concerned about this problem as you are and those who are are generally both 1) better informed about their country's history; 2) less vehement and bigoted when it comes to dealing with other peoples' opinions and, fianlly; 3) fluent in Portuguese. None of which, apparently, you are.

No. I'm suggesting that Freyre's research was deeply inspired by his concern with eugenics. If you actually READ CG&S, you'll notice that Freyre does not reject eugenics: he simply thinks that miscegenation - in the particular case of Brazil - makes eugenic sense.

You said that Freyre was inspired by racial purist ideals, this is a lie. If some ignorant just accepted it then you wouldn't say anything else more and everybody reading this would think that Freyre was the Brazilian Grant's counterpart. This would be a big lie because Freyre's work wasn't about eugenics and an insult because Grant was an amateur and was not as big for the US as Freyre is for Brazil. You treat them as equals. My God, you have no idea of how idiotic this is.

As I said earlier ideas don't exist in a vacuum. You can't single out one person from an entire period and put all the responsibility for that on its shoulders, because those ideas were accepted by others as well. I will add something to it: we work with the information we have. People will always use the concepts they know in other to describe the reality around them, and if the person happens to be a scientist then he will use the most up-to-date knowledge.

If he gave them any pause for thought, was he wrong? Equating him and his work to that of eugeniticists is a disservice to the world and a lie. Freyre is much bigger than that. He just observed the Brazilian reality and researched about how it came to be. Miscigenation happens to be a part of the Brazilian identity and how this metaracial society was formed.

You reduced his entire work to racist propagandist trash! You should study more.

There's a big difference of a man that couldn't ignore the science of his time and the fanatic segregation and purity ideals, policies and popular beliefs in the US, Nazi Germany, Europe, South Africa, etc.

Causes and consequence means everything in this detabe. Because if "eugenics" influenced Brazil's culture and miscigenation is just a racist's tool, then it must have happened before the miscigenation took place. How can you influence something in the past? Will you use some time-machine built in a De lorean and go back in time and change things? WTF!

"CT, the irrational
written by A Brazilian, 2007-12-17 12:52:58
Thjat's abunch of bull & ..."

It's not because it's not. You write and argue like a 5 years old."

-I'd figure you'd pick up on my 5 yr old writing style, it's obvious that you haven't misspelled anything in the past; you know what, I wanted you to pick up on it so that you would feel more like the intellectual that you are, with you're great schooling, that at the end of the day i can just see you @ the beach selling ice cream.
It's agood thing that you called me obnoxious b4, at least you have a mirror to see it.
So why don't you do yourself & all of us a favor, to flush yourself down the "latrine" if you have one?

it's interesting to note that I'm writing here under my real name and identity. Anyone can check my record out.

Your real ID as well as the nicknames have been known to our Spy agencies for a long time

Social scientists aren't exempt from logic. In humanities some people seem to have a disdain for numbers and logic, but both things are everywhere. The only time they actually seek numbers is for supporting some bogus theory, and only with statistics, the easiest thing to manipulate.

Answer me a few questions:

- Was there ever an effort by the government to favor mixed people over the rest of the population (like in the US or South Africa for example)?
- Was there ever a propagandistic effort to portray the virtues of the "new race" over the existing ones?
- Was there any benefit for interracial couples like tax exemption, money prizes, etc, so the miscigenation would happen more easily? The Nazi government, for instance, would give prizes to Aryan families that were "child-rich".
- Did the government ever tried to facilitate things for both parts to meet each other in events and such?
- Did the government force anybody to live together?

Not only this racist nonsense doesn't respect a chronological order of events (you seem to believe that some facts can influence the past), but also there's nothing except a few conversations from racists and criminal misrepresentation of the work of a great Brazilian intellectual to back it up.

Now the most important question of all:

- Who is harmed by miscigenation?

Since racism in Europe, South Africa and in the US created many victims, and if you say that miscigenation is just a different way of doing the same thing, then who's harmed by it? That's it, that's the question because NOBODY IS HARMED BY IT, only purists who think that "God created races and we should keep them pure". Are you one of them?

This is so f***ing evil. This about a bunch of race obsessed bastards trying to criminalize miscigenation in order to keep things the way "they are supposed to be". This is the consecution of the work of criminal minds of the past, but by other means. Instead of eliminating the "unfit" now they try to criminalize miscigenation to make it look like it's an act against humanity and they promote "identities" to make sure the white are really white.

Let me ask anyone who's out there and cares to answer. Have Brasilians always been so obsessed with race and class?

Not really, Carlo. At least we in the South don't give a s**t about the color. I think the whole issue started after the current government appointed a minister for "Racial Integration" and it started talking about "Quotas" for admission into the universities for the blacks, mulatos, etc; It is all political, just putting the uneducated whites against uneducated blacks. In other words, "Divide and Rule" policy, which I highly disapprove of. I must confess that I am not talking for the rest of the regions of the country, just the South. Please do remember that few "Coroneis" in the North East control the house and the senate and they don't give a s**t for the poor or the middle class regardless of their skin color. All that these idiots are interested is in lining their own pockets. As you might have observed during your visits to Brasil, the "Novelas" (Soap Operas) on the TV are disgusting and always show the whites as the Superior human beings and the black ones as their servants, which I think is highly wrong. One complaint I have against our erstwhile Military Government is that they could have used lots of our black professionals, nominating them for high posts. However, during that government, the blacks had equal opportunities to get educated, get jobs and nobody minded if they were your bosses. BTW, the N word in the South is quite acceptable, except that it is not "n****r", but "Negão". As long as I remember, there was no segregation in any bars,restaurants,discos,etc;

And, are all people taliking about it, or is it mainly the disenfranchised and/or those who seek to explain/rationalize racism/classism? Are the youth in the schools in Brasil equally obsessed?

As far as I could tell ya, nobody is talking about it. Both the blacks and whites are pissed off about this "Divide and Rule" policy.It is not an issue in any school nor in an university ,at least in the South.

By the way, I forgot to ask, what is a "Brazuca," is it a perjorative term (which I suspect it is)

Yes it is.Like calling a black American a N or an Arab as a "Sand n****r" (or Towel Head) or a White as "Honkey". Of course we have too many narrow minded people all over the world, including in your country and mine. Being a legal scholar, you should be able to analyze these bigots and judge yourself what they are contributing to the society by calling others by such names.

Take care.

Joao, Thanks for your comments and clarifying some things for me. The program that I was thinking about is "Brazil in Black and White" shown on the Wide Angle series on our public television station, PBS. If I remember correctly, there were groups of students from different economic backgrounds and colors competing for places in the university's freshman class. Very interesting, although I came away with still unanswered questions. I believe it was there I also heard of the Brasilian organization; Educafro. So, I am still wondering whether or not some Brasilians still see inequities in their society because of skin color or the politics of economics due to their skin color. Just as many of us do here in the US. But, as I said at the end of the day, peole just want to make a decent living and be happy.

Of course I do realize that the struggle is really between the "haves" and "have-nots" and 90% of the time it is people of color who are the "have-nots," so, I guess that's where the energy should be directed at making society more economically equitable, and not look to color as the sole problem.

Have Brasilians always been so obsessed with race and class?

Brazil is one the least racist places in the world. If you lived there you would notice the complete absence of "identity politics". In other words, nobody is forced to assume "identities" and nobody really cares about it. This is only important for Americans, who are obsessed with "colors" and "ethnicities".

The topics discussed here are discussed because the American that manages this site wants to, he believes it is important, but it doesn't necessarily reflect what people care about in Brazil. This website is a kind of "Brazil seen through the eyes of an American".

Recently there have been a wave of scholars, either foreigners such as Thaddeus or Brazilians that studied in the US, trying to apply the same racist standards from elsewhere to Brazil. Apparently for the patriotic ego of Americans there can't be countries that can actually be better in anything. So you will see very often on this site articles such as this one and comments such as Thaddeus' trying to convince others that Brazil is racist.

Joao, Thanks for your comments and clarifying some things for me. The program that I was thinking about is "Brazil in Black and White" shown on the Wide Angle series on our public television station, PBS. If I remember correctly, there were groups of students from different economic backgrounds and colors competing for places in the university's freshman class. Very interesting, although I came away with still unanswered questions. I believe it was there I also heard of the Brasilian organization; Educafro. So, I am still wondering whether or not some Brasilians still see inequities in their society because of skin color or the politics of economics due to their skin color. Just as many of us do here in the US. But, as I said at the end of the day, people just want to make a decent living and be happy.

Well now here in the US there's a big thing about illegal immigration, and the ordinary "man in the street" is blaming those who are dying to come here to work. When in reality, blame the corporations who at some level employ them and sanction them coming here. I have to remind people that most of us are "illegal immigrants" as the land really belongs to the Native Americans"

Of course I do realize that the struggle is really between the "haves" and "have-nots" and 90% of the time it is people of color who are the "have-nots," so, I guess that's where the energy should be directed at making society more economically equitable, and not look to color as the sole problem.

A Brazilian, Thanks for your views on the issue. I think I would have to actually live in Brasil to actually understand what's going on, as I'm still as much in the dark as I ever was. But, if Brasilians aren't "obsessed with identity politics" then why is there a movement underway in Brasil to make things more equitable for Blacks? Or, am I missing something here? Is it that Brasilians are not obsessed with race because they don't see it as a "problem," or is the non-obsession because race actually is NOT the problem, but the enequities are more a problem of econonomics and most of the economically disadvantaged just happen to be Black and Mullatoes?

You say this website is a kind of "Brasil seen through the eyes of an American," if that's true, then again, why the Black Nationalist movement underway in Brasil today? Are those Brasilian Blacks wrongly taking their cues from the American civil rights movement, are they rabble rousers, or are they just people who "want their own way at any expense?"

I welcome all comments as I am trying to understand this complex (or is it?) issue. On the other hand, do you think I, as a Black American, could never understand because our struugle in this country has been different (or has it?) Thanks.

Those movements aren't new at all, they exist for as long as similar movements existed in the US, in great part influenced by the "race struggle" there. But they are completely irrelevant to the Brazilian society today. You don't see rallies, conflicts or anything. When they come forward to say something the quantity of voices against are big, not offending them in any way similiar to the Anglo-saxons, but questioning the truth of their claims. They are trying to do what they have always tried to do, but were never able to because the reality here is different.

The current government is a leftist one, involved with Hugo Chavez and other Latin American buffoons, whose goals are to implement Socialism in here (they even have TV ads saying "Socialism: think about this idea"). Today this topic is more debate simply because this government picked this up as a part of a global Marxist "class conflict". They promote rural riots as well in the form of militias that invade farms, they promote gay militants, they pursue abortionist policies and have a rabid anti-christian rethoric. The blacks in this case, and indians as well, are just another mean to an end.

The minds of the Marxists work in terms of "oppressor vs. opressed". The reality of Brazil of today, and the many versions of "the truth" circulating around, can't be understood out of its context.

Carlo, to put it in simpler terms, this what happens in Brazil is not the voice of the people changing things likr it was in the US, it is the voice of scholars, foreigners sometimes, and politicians promoting alien concepts and trying to change people's minds.

Believe it or not " A Brazilian" made a very valid point when he said:

The current government is a leftist one, involved with Hugo Chavez and other Latin American buffoons, whose goals are to implement Socialism in here (they even have TV ads saying "Socialism: think about this idea"). Today this topic is more debate simply because this government picked this up as a part of a global Marxist "class conflict". They promote rural riots as well in the form of militias that invade farms, they promote gay militants, they pursue abortionist policies and have a rabid anti-christian rethoric. The blacks in this case, and indians as well, are just another mean to an end.

Remember what I said, "divide and rule". Instigate class fare,race warfare and other kinds of warfares, to JUSTIFY THE FAILURE OF their ideology. To be honest Carlo, these leftist looneys have no real plan to bridge the gap between the rich and poor. They just pay lip service, while enriching themselves.

Another good one from "A Brazilian":

what happens in Brazil is not the voice of the people changing things likr it was in the US, it is the voice of scholars, foreigners sometimes, and politicians promoting alien concepts and trying to change people's minds.

I slightly differ though. I would rather attribute the "Palhaçada" to the "politicians promoting alien concepts and trying to change people's minds".

Don't mistake me,Carlo, I am not saying that everything is fantastic in Brazil. We need to stop and reflect about the direction the country is taking. Xenophobia, Racism and Class warfare are very alien to our society. When the high school text books are being rewritten to resuscitate the glorious deeds of Stalin and Mao-tse-Dung and distributed among the kids (all at tax payers money, of course), I tend to agree with "A Brazilian".

Intelligent and educated Americans like you should be very careful not to believe all the crap that the Press says and stereotypes all the Brasilians .

Have a good day.

I suggest that you read a past article on this website claled" i'm black, i'm poor, i'm not brazil" & especially the comment by -lamla-
i believe it should answer some of your questions.

Thanks to "A Brazilian" and Joao. I think the reason I'm having such a hard time because as A Brazilian said "but were never able to because the reality here is different." I am having the problem with the Brasilian "reality" and I think I'm trying to apply my reality in the US as a Black man to Brasil's reality. It's very much like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. It just can't be done. And no, I don't belive all the crap that the press prints, says, etc. As far as Hugo Chavez, on the surface it would seem that his "radical" views and posturing (but are their positive actions?) are an effort to improve the lives of the disenfranchised, however, I think he has another agenda. Once again there are problems that need to be fixed, but another leader who has his own interests at heart. And, I won't even start on Cuba or Zimbabwe.

Joao, it seems as though you're saying that the politicians are selling the people a bill of goods under the guise of trying to help them.

Good evening.

Thanks to you both for your enlightening comments. But I do wish others would come in with their views as well.

You said that Freyre was inspired by racial purist ideals, this is a lie.

No. What I said was that Freyre was inspired by eugenics. Here's the exact quote (in fact, you quote it too): "Freyre's research was deeply inspired by his concern with eugenics". Eugenics and racial purity are not one and the same thing and only a simpleton with no knowledge of the history of eugenics would believe they are. Again - because the first two times this was said, it obviously didn't sink in - there was a miscegenationsit AND a racial purity branch of eugenics.

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true, A. And sticking weords in someone's mouth because you're too much of an intellectual coward to deal with what they are really saying just shows what kind of no-character ignoramus you really are.

Freyre's debt to eugenics theory is well documented and is QUITE obvious in Casa Grande e Senzala, a book you've aparently heard about but never read. As for me reducing his theory to "racist trash", the only conceivable way that could be true is if you are either too stupid - or too politically correct - to understand the historical truth that eugenics was not simply concern with racial purity but with "!improving the race". Freyre's main point in CG&S wasn't that eugenics was trash, but that "race mixing " - in the specific case of Brazil - was probably a positive thing. And he used eugenical arguments to make this point.

Period

Now, A Brazilian, your point from the beginning was that Brazil had no race laws. Why then are your questions above directed towards miscegenated individuals? All of your questions can be answered in affirmative if we look at black, white and Indian in Brazil and THIS is the point we are arguing about, because you've claimed - repeatedly - that Brazil has never had any race laws. This is simply untrue.

- Was there ever an effort by the government to favor one race over the rest of the population (like in the US or South Africa for example)?

Yes. Colonizing projects in Brazil for centuries were limited to members of the white race. Furthermore, blacks were prohibited from emigrating to Brazil and were banned by law from many positions throughout Brazilian history. In colonial Brazil, in particular, "blood purity" needed to be proven for a series of legal rights and responsabilities. In 19th century Brazil, blacks were prohibited from serving as officers in the military and also in a series of professions. To Brazil's credit, most of these laws disappeared before they did in the southern U.S. or South Africa (but not as soon as, say, in the northern U.S.) but to say they never existed is ludicrous.

- Was there ever a propagandistic effort to portray the virtues of one race over the others?
One only needs to look at Brazilian art, listen to Brazilian music, read Brazilian literature, or watch Brazilian football to hear the virtures of the "golden mestiço race" portrayed. Mestiçagem and the "Brazilian race" was a foundational ideology of the Vargas period. Freyre, in fact, was sent to the U.S. on several occasions with ample government funding specifically to spread this message. Luso-tropicalism was also particulary in vogue during the military dictatorship when, once again, the virtues of the "Brazilian race" were lauded to the skies in official proclamations and campaigns.

-Was there any benefit forcouples of a given racial make up like tax exemption, money prizes, etc, so that eugenics would happen more easily? The Nazi government, for instance, would give prizes to Aryan families that were "child-rich".

I'm not aware of this actually being enacted (to Brazil's credit). Then again, it wasn't enacted in the U.S. either and that country, according to you, is a model of racist behavior, so obviously this is not a necessary or sufficient component of state-supported racism. However, the IDEA was amply discussed in Brazil and there were several legal projects in the early 20th century which proposed such measures. Roquette-Pinto and Batista de Lacerda both proposed this.

Did the government ever tried to facilitate or prevent both parts to meet each other in events and such?

Again, throughout the 19th and early twentieth century, there were plenty of "whites only" and "blacks only" institutions, clubs and professions.

Did the government force anybody to live together or apart?

...And there was also ample housing segregation.

...so it bears repeating.

One only needs to look at Brazilian art, listen to Brazilian music or to the country's politicians, read Brazilian literature, or watch Brazilian football to hear the virtures of the "golden mestiço race" portrayed. Mestiçagem and the "Brazilian race" were foundational ideologies of the Vargas period. Freyre, in fact, was sent to the U.S. on several occasions with ample government funding specifically to spread this message. Luso-tropicalism was also particulary in vogue during the military dictatorship when, once again, the virtues of the "Brazilian race" were lauded to the skies in official proclamations and campaigns.

"written by Carlo, 2007-12-18 23:00:49"
As far as Hugo Chavez, on the surface it would seem that his "radical" views and posturing (but are their positive actions?) are an effort to improve the lives of the disenfranchised, however, I think he has another agenda. Once again there are problems that need to be fixed, but another leader who has his own interests at heart. And, I won't even start on Cuba or Zimbabwe.
Joao, it seems as though you're saying that the politicians are selling the people a bill of goods under the guise of trying to help them."

As i mentioned previously at the end of the day they are all the same color or no color, to use the white men time & time again among other excuses is just political brainwashing.

"Don't mistake me,Carlo, I am not saying that everything is fantastic in Brazil. We need to stop and reflect about the direction the country is taking. Xenophobia, Racism and Class warfare are very alien to our society. When the high school text books are being rewritten to resuscitate the glorious deeds of Stalin and Mao-tse-Dung and distributed among the kids (all at tax payers money, of course), I tend to agree with "A Brazilian".

-Joao what a joke, that racism & class warfare are foreign to your society. That's a laugh-

"Intelligent and educated Americans like you should be very careful not to believe all the crap that the Press says and stereotypes all the Brasilians."

-On the contrary Joao the people that know the truth believe it because it is the truth, only you and yours, kee denying day after day what is & has been very evident thru today.-

"written by A Brazilian, 2007-12-18 10:36:49
Have Brasilians always been so obsessed with race and class?
Brazil is one the least racist places in the world. If you lived there you would notice the complete absence of "identity politics". In other words, nobody is forced to assume "identities" and nobody really cares about it. This is only important for Americans, who are obsessed with "colors" and "ethnicities".

I beg to differ, a person of color knows that when he/she reads a wanted ad in the newspaper & it says "boa aparencia""good appearance" the people of color know exactly what it means, do not apply because you will not get the job, if that's not silent racism i don't know what is.

"By the way, I forgot to ask, what is a "Brazuca," is it a perjorative term (which I suspect it is) or a term of endearment (doubtful)?"

Contrary to what Joao has stated, to me brazuca is a short acronym for brazilian, it means neither really, but since joao & most brazilians only seem to be sensitive to when others refer to them by other names, they think everything is belittling, after all they don't belittle anyone themselves, from the day tha they are born to present day all they do is throw potshots at those thatmade it possible for them to exist & are more successful & civil than they are, but that's ok, they can, & no one else can".
It's something just like give & take, they take all the time, but they don't give.

"Carlo
written by João da Silva, 2007-12-17 21:32:11
Let me ask anyone who's out there and cares to answer. Have Brasilians always been so obsessed with race and class?
Not really, Carlo. At least we in the South don't give a s**t about the color.

-What a bunch of bull, trying to say that in your state you don't care about color, maybe that's because there aren't that many people of color, always trying to downplay-


"As you might have observed during your visits to Brasil, the "Novelas" (Soap Operas) on the TV are disgusting and always show the whites as the Superior human beings and the black ones as their servants, which I think is highly wrong."

-Totally agree-

"BTW, the N word in the South is quite acceptable, except that it is not "n****r", but "Negão". As long as I remember, there was no segregation in any bars,restaurants,discos,etc;"

-But the word -Negao- is used effectionately, isn't joao?
But if i or somneone else non-brazilian use it depending where & how, then it's racism, as recent article in the website denoted.-

...
written by CT, 2007-12-15 21:27:31
" A Brazilian: We have created the very first multiracial-monocultural (all in one) society the world has ever seen. You are light years behind us."

Andagain how has that benefited brazil & or contributed to the world? In what way/fashion?

Yes. Colonizing projects in Brazil for centuries were limited to members of the white race.

Thaddeus, you are a hack of a Phd. Besides using arguments that don't follow a chronological order and don't have a connection, now you try to dodge the questions.

Blah, blah, the WHITE race. Nobody said Brazil was a country 100% free of racists for all times since the beginning of times. You are just trying to dodge the question because your argument is too flaky. There never was any policy the further the "mixed race", the one you claim to have been favored by the improvement of the race. As a matter of fact, the "whites only" clubs of the past (19th century) resemble much of the American whites-only clubs (until the 60s of the 20th century). Racism was alive in the past, but that's a very different thing than saying that racism is alive today and that Brazil has a racist culture. The US has a racist culture, even the blacks are racist there, race is a big issue for everyone and that's why people are so careful about purity and labeling, i.e., someone can't be white if it's not "pure white". Brazil doesn't have such things.

Your argument is that eugenics was more than just to keep the "master race" as master, but there was "salvation" through mixing (it's all eugenics, but different). I have proved that your arguments don't follow a chronological order and there were never policies to further the "mixed race" (the one you think it is the goal of eungenics, haha) in detriment of the rest.

Eugenics and racial purity are not one and the same thing and only a simpleton with no knowledge of the history of eugenics would believe they are.

Yes, only a simpleton would associate eugenics with racism. I guess you haven't read many history books, haven't you? You must be one of those careerists seeking advancement out of a popular (at least where you live) topic. Everything you have said so far is flawed, because mixing began much before any theory was ever made.

They were only rationalizing their reality for the, then, current scientific theories, and that's what you refuse to understand. You create this conception that this triggered some sort of racist-eugenic-Anglo-saxon-like pursue. Well, it happens that reality is here to disprove you.

Sorry boy, you are wrong.

When one has to repreat oneself endlessly, it's a bad sign, so I'll just wrap up a few points here, make a final sumation, and leave A Brazilian to rant on in peace.

First of all...

There never was any policy the further the "mixed race", the one you claim to have been favored by the improvement of the race

Incorrect. Black people were BANNED from immigrating to Brazil. Certain types of Asians and almost ALL Asians were likewise banned. White people were subsidized to colonize Brazil. All this was done as official policy to - in the words of Afrânio Peixoto - "slowly free Brazil from the vices of African blood". The people who promulgated these policies did them with two arguments: 1) it would encourage miscegenation and thus the "absorption" of the blacks through "superior" white blood; 2) They would increase the number of whites in Brazil and this would gradually "eliminate blacks through natural competition".

Brazilian science was so sure of the eventual efficacy of this program that its subsidized mission to the International Eugenics Conferences in London actually produced a chronogram which "proved" that the "black race" would dissappear in Brazil by the early 21st century.

So yes, this was a conscious government policy, backed up by eugenic science. While it did not give "incentives" for mixed marriages, that is not the only way eugenics works, nor was it the only way it was seen to have worked at the time.

As a matter of fact, the "whites only" clubs of the past (19th century) resemble much of the American whites-only clubs (until the 60s of the 20th century).

This is true, but why A Wannabe would make this point is beyond me. After all, isn't the ENTIRE THRUST of his argument to prove that Brazil is not racist, unlike the U.S.? Those "whites only" clubs are seen as being a concrete manifestation of racism by everyone I've ever mnet or read, so why A would want to admit that Brazil was just like the States on this point if he's trying to show that racism never really existed in Brazil is beyond me.

I have proved that your arguments don't follow a chronological order...

Now this truly puzzles me. A asserts that my arguments don't follow chronological order, but he's not proven anything of the kind. The misceganist argument of eugenics has been kicking around the world since the late 19th century. It got a lot of play in Brazil in the early 20th, following Freyre (but also the later works of Roquette-Pinto). But eugenics is, in and of itself, scientific racism, whether it promotes "hibreds" or "purity", so if A's point is - as I've understood it so far - that Brazil never enshrined scientific racist theories in its national policies, he's out on both counts. Whitening theory was a constant in Brazil during the period stretching from roughly 1880 to 1950 (some say, in fact, up to around 1970). I'm completely at a loss as to what A sees as chronologically amiss here.

But, as his claims that I'm espousing racial purity show, A is not above simply lying when he feels intellectually threatened. After all, it's much easier to burn a straw man than to actually refute someone using data and logic.

Your argument is that eugenics was more than just to keep the "master race" as master...

Here's a great example of another lie. Where did I ever say anything remotely like this? Whether miscegenonist or purist in focus, eugenics were convinced that a more perfect human race could be constructed through selective breeding. That's what I said and that is, in fact, the dictionary definition of eugenics. Anyone can look it up.

Yes, only a simpleton would associate eugenics with racism.

Again, yet another lie. What I said was that only a simpleton would believe that eugenics and racial purity were one and the same thing. Eugenics is of course, racism. But there are MANY FORMS of racism other than a simple belief in racial purity (we'll discuss this more below).

A Brazilian - while probably not a Brazilian himself - is a pretty good example of the kind of prejudice we have to deal with down here.

What A Brazilian and guys like him do is ultimately an ignorant and sophmoric manuever which anyone who's studied a bit of rhetoric can see right through but which, unfortunately, has a fair degree of convincing power as long as it involves convincing people of something they want to be convinced about anyway. Basically, it involves accepting a false postulate as true, and then building completely logical arguments on that base, avoiding any discussion at all over whether the base itself is true or not.

In A's case, the false postulate is this: "real" racism is a belief in racial purity and is exemplified by the U.S. historical experience. Why does he need to make this false argument? Simple: in order to avoid having to think about racism.

Anyone who's read about this country's history or had to deal with it for more than a week can confirm that WHITE Brazilians by and large don't see themselves as racist (though most will happily admit that other Brazilians are racist). This is a characteristic they share with white folks all over the planet. As any Brazilian who's darker than a very light brown can tell you, however, most white Brazilians are chock full of unexamined racial prejudices - again, just like their North American and European cousins. And like those white folks, our white folks find it difficult and painful to examine their prejudices. In fact, they'll do almost anything they can to avoid having to look at them.

One of the best ways, historically, for white folks not to have to deal with race in Brazil is to claim that racism simply doesn't exist here and assert that those black and brown folks who say it does are all militant nuts who are "brainwashed" by "foreign ideas".

This argument - and A Brazilian above makes a very good example of it - is underlined by fallacious logic and is supported on the premise that "real" racism must involve a belief in the superiority of racial purity and/or be exactly or alsmot exactly as it was in Nazi Germany, the U.S. or South Africa (you can take your pick here: A seems to enjoy all three, but gives preference to the U.S.).

Of course, any national experience is going to be different from any other national experience, so when Brazil's history of race and racism is put up against these histories and, inevitably, is found to be different, then >POOF

I DO agree with A Brazilian that many anti-racist activists in Brazil are too simple minded and copy their understanding of race and anti-racism from the American play book without adequately taking into consideration Brazilian historical experience.

Ours is a racism that ACCEPTS miscegenation and has a low degree of what Franz Fanon called "negrophobia". But this does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that Brazil is "less" racist than the U.S.

Trying to decide which country is "less racist" in this context is a bit like trying to decide which ocean is "less wet": there's simply no meaningful, objective yardstick to measure by and the amplitude the phenomenon makes quantitative judgements of it simpleminded .

Hi,

I'm very curious to know if the religion factor played any role on the topic being discussed in this thread - racism in Brazil in comparison to The U.S. past and present.
Where Brazil was colonized by a Catholic Country, and The U.S. by a Protestant Country - although there was a religious turmoil at the time between the Church and the monarchy.
Dr. Blanchette do you think there is correlation?
If so, do you know any book or research that cover this aspect?
could you post the information for me.

Thanks

You desire to create a parallel between eugenics in the Nazi or US way, where purity was important, and "eugenics" in the other way, the one that you claim to be Brazil's, where mixing is important. You wish to make both look the same, but from different angles. Here is where you fail badly.

You don't prove how the government might have helped this second way. All the examples you show are of the traditional way of racism, i.e., racism just like in the US. It contradicts your argument, in which "mixing" was the goal. It is true that in the 19th century whites were given preference, and, in the same way other countries limited the quantity of immigrants from certain regions (just like the US did), Brazil did it for some time, in order to keep the white race on top. How does it translate into furthering some agenda where mixed are the final goal? Even if you disconsider the Brazilian history (that shows that mixings exist throughout the entire country's existence), this would prove only the traditional US-like type of racism and not anything else.

Second, the chronological order is very important, because such theories appeared only in the 19th century. Logical conclusions:

- If Brazil were racist then there wouldn't be mixing before that;
- If such theories really played a role in shaping up the Brazilian society then mixing would begin only after it had been stablished as a national policy, and would need some government incentive because "the people were soooooo racist";
- There would be measures to ensure that the mixed received special treatment, since they were supposed to be the "supermen";

How can a policy influence the past? How can something that a few people talked about in the late 19th century to change anything in the reality of the country? What I have pointed out and you have ignored so far because you probably tied your academic career to this nonsense, is that the Brazilians of the time only rationalized their reality using the scientific knowledge of the time.

All you have is "This guy said this... that guy said that..." which doesn't prove anything except that they said this or that. You are constructing a story based on personal opinions of the people the time and ignoring a large portion of the Brazilian history.

The causes don't lead to the conclusions you want to make. You misinterpret things and ignore others.You are wrong.

Dr. Blacnchette, Thank you for further elucidating the race "problem/situation" for me and others.

all i know is that nearly EVERYBODY working at the hyper expensive Whole Foods supermarket is black (ethiopia, ghana, senegal, etc etc) or latino-
while just about every customer is a caucaso-european...so why are people jumping at the chance to tear up brazil when we have much of the same
here in Washington DC- where the majority is black? americans are just as hypocritical about race as anybody else- but they can hide behind their
civil rights era laws and the sanctimonious editorials of their newspapers!

A Brazilian is trully a moron.

Baltasar: America is similar indeed, but the fact that it is racist is accepted and publicized far more than in Brazil.

Is this the best you can do? Brazil is not racist and I have proven so.

Just wanted to check back to see if the discussion was still going on. I think a term other than "racist" needs to be used because it might not be racism in the American sense, however, there's a negative situation when it comes to Blacks and Whites.