Brazzil

Though I promised that I would not interfere in your book writing, I must admit that the "plot is thickening" and getting more interesting and suspenseful. Just a quick observation:

"Sim, é muito lindo," Sandro agreed, but offered nothing more. He was a man short on words but long on action, I decided, surveying him up and down. Most Brazilians are very friendly and talkative, but not Sandro.

May be Sandro didn't understand your "horrendous" Portuguese with your "atrocious" accent? May be he was half deaf? Probably he had crooked teeth or was toothless.

Please make sure that in the next chapter, you clarify these points.

BTW, I am enjoying the story.

Joao,
No, I am perfectly okay with you commenting on my writing, especially if you think it's something that will help make the story better. I'm not sure that Sandro will be developed into a very important character to the story, but I may give a few more details about him through editing; perhaps you find hi to be alittle unreal. I did meet a guy who acted similarly to how I describe him while traveling on part of the Rio Negro. However, I don't think his silent treatment was because he didn't understand my Portuguese. My Brazilian wife is a wonderful lady in the true sense of the word, and is also an excellent teacher of Portuguese. All of the Brazilians I meet and talk to are very impressed with my lack of the typical "cafona" American accent.

right?

because you left out a fact about one of the police confrontations with mst you mentioned...

mst charged that police line with machetes waving and throwing brick size rocks...it was very confrontational...might not excuse the massacre that happened but mst was not innocent...

yeah, we just saw the reports of them destroying a lot of orange groove trees.aparently the company was planting on land that they werent suposed to, but, it was commented on in various news organisations as unecsasarily violent...as a matter of fact, they can kiss my ass...and their enteties just got 15 million from the government..oh but look out, they may be ocupying property near you at any minute and destroying anything they see fit in their corny ass marxist bafoonery

that is their problem, they have to be confrontational and threatening...but im sure you are just setting all that up for the reader to find out later...right?

that is their problem, they have to be confrontational and threatening...but im sure you are just setting all that up for the reader to find out later...right?

I think so, my friend. The author knows that the readers will not tolerate the MST being portrayed as heroes and as a result, they will not buy his book.He also knows that the members of MST do not know to read or write and hence they are not his target market.

However, on my humble suggestion, the author might give a twist to the story and give "silent" Sandro the role of an undercover agent working for our good friend Gen.Lessa!!! Or Sandro might turn out to be the good General under disguise.

BTW, I am glad that you too have take a lot of interest in reading this wonderful drama that is full of suspense.

Asp:
When I first read your comment, and Joao's about chapter 1, I felt that both comments were pretty harsh and ont necesaarily fair (and part of me felt that yes, they were bulls**t), but as I reflected further they did cause me to re-examine my story, although I must say that I will still write my story as I feel it should go, as Adrianerik suggested. He does have some great ideas as to approach and thought process, but I'm not going to copycat anything he says, either. Joao said that I had a condescending attitude towards women, which I don't, and I cetainly don't want to offend women who read my story, so I am editing it just a bit in places to make sure to portray them in a positive light. Some characters in the story may still be a**holes at times, and maybe not fair to women, but I thunk that's okay because it's true to life.
You mentioned twice that the "mst charged that police line with machetes waving and throwing brick size rocks...it was very confrontational...might not excuse the massacre that happened but mst was not innocent..."
I may actually mention that further on in the story. I'm not a great supporter of the MST, although I do care about all of the needy people in the world. However, sometimes the beggar on the street corner is really a scam artist (how many poor souls holding cardboard signs at the roadside in America are actually going to use the money they get for food, and how many are just trying to scam you so they can buy drugs or alcohol?!) And yet poverty is a major problem worldwide, that needs to be dealt with in a better way. The very existence of the MST is just one more example of severity and proliferation of this problem. I'm not necessarily saying that we should support the MST, but we shouldn't ignore them either. Something needs to be done. Stay tuned!

i just feel the nescesaty of remarking on this public forum my veiws on mst

thinking they are representing the poor people is the problem i am concerned with

that is the problem with all these neo com marxist organisations, they hold them selves up as the representatives of the people and then just throw in dogmad flawed poop from the stale arcaic soviet union propaganda page

did you know mst was encamped outside the usa embassy protesting against the usa after 9/11 ? when a reporter asked one of the people sitting down to protest why he was there he said he didnt know, he was just hungry

did you just see the mst destroy huge amounts of orange grooves in the state of sao paulo, brutal destruction for nothing, they could have given that food to people who need it

you do know that some mst leaders have gone to jail for murder

the leaders of mst study in cuba and come and manipulate people into their dogma and encourage poor people to be threatening and violent

of couse there are problems to be addressed, but letting the real voices come through while lost in the crowd of neo com dogma and confrontational methods is the trick...how to seperate the bulls**t from the voices that can really make a differance

promoting violence and threatening people is not the answer tot he problems in the north east as far as im concerned and ill roll my eyes and groan if i see it portrayed any other way

Joao's about chapter 1, I felt that both comments were pretty harsh and ont necesaarily fair (and part of me felt that yes, they were bulls**t), but as I reflected further they did cause me to re-examine my story, although I must say that I will still write my story as I feel it should go, as Adrianerik suggested

Hey Scott, I saw the "Adrianerik" ´s reply to my comments calling him a "Redneck" and I am yet to respond! To put on record, I was just teasing him and he walked right into my trap!! He can not be a "Redneck"!!! I do apologize to him for calling him names (hope he gets to read this entry of mine).

He has very good points and so does my friend ASP. As for MST, unfortunately I have to side with ASP. When the movement has been taken over by half assed "intellectuals" to manipulate the masses for their own personal benefit, the hard working middle class people like us will never ever support it.Sure, the rich "Feudal Lords" of Brasil can afford to spend on lawyers or to set up their private armies to fight the "peasants", who are nothing but cannon fodders. But, we the dwindling middle class can not afford the luxury of private security guards.

ASP talks lots of sense. The headman of MST is no different from Stalin, Mão Ché Dung, Stalin, Sarko, Berlusconi and other great and famous past and present "Personalities" and "Rulers" of Latin America.

BTW, I have been to that exotic part of the country, where the plot of your story is being based. I trust more in hard working and taciturn people like Sandro than the politicians they voted for.

http://noticias.terra.com.br/b...overnistas tentarao derrubar CPI do MST em tempo recorde.html

this is a recent headline in terra about the pt trying to squelch a government investigation into mst...and about huge amounts of money going to mst through organisations that receive money from the government

what is really revealing is most of the comments by readers in the comments section. most of these brazilian people see exactly what is happening . and this is a crowd that would rake the usa over the coals at the slightest provocation

http://www.terra.com.br/portal/

http://noticias.terra.com.br/b...overnistas tentarao derrubar CPI do MST em tempo recorde.html

wish it would work, its extremly relevant to exactly what we are talking about now , the comments really rip

absolutly ,joao....check this out...

Thanks ASP, for referring me to all the sites. I am already aware of the facts through other sources. Fortunately, I am privy to such info. I just didn't want Scott to "romanticize" MST and end up like Ernest Hemingway, whom he reminds me of so much. Not worth promoting head MFS(Excuse my language) from MST.

I hope you are keeping good health, in spite of the awful weather. Dont forget to forward your clock by 1 hour tomorrow. I have noticed that you are a little forgetful these days, probably because of the balls freezing weather. BUT...BUT...you are a very resilient person and will wither out all the storms, typhoons, tornadoes, El Ninho, etc; that are castigating our state.

It wouldn't be productive to get into a debate about MST on this topic. I'm sure that other topics will pop up on Brazzil where people's opinions can be aired.

That said, I don't think that heavy generalizations will be productive. Especially without a clear definition of what the problems are. In the 7 years that I have been living in Brazil I found that there is entirely too much of a focus on regional generalizations and personal generalizations among Brazilians.

Sticking to literature, I believe that Scott's observations in his last post is what makes for good stories: the contradiction between the need and search for great ideals and the fragile and imperfect human beings who have to achieve these ideals.

And rather than writing fairy tale stories of perfect good and perfect evil it would make interesting reading (regardless of your political opinions) if a book captures these contradictions.

1) The MST exists and has become more radical because of their betrayal when they tried to redress injustice by the Brazilian "democracy".

2) A Brazilian middle class (of good people), representatives of the highest principles of the country, torn between protecting their newly acquired things (and, to be honest, their lives) and being the leaders against injustice in their country.

3) Poor women with conservative values in a land where their only commodity is their bodies.

4) Foreigners whose own countries are the models of the rule of law and justice faced with their own temptations in a land where Machiavellian law prevails.

5) Some MST groups exploiting their constituency while others set up 2300 schools, educating more than 50,000 youths and adults.

Contradictions!

What I have found, and this might be difficult for Scott's story if tries to do too much, is to always round out the humans in every story.

Regardless of who those humans are. Else they just become props subject to more generalizations and tsk-tsking by moralizing readers. More "marxist scum", "capitalist lepers", "dirty prostitutes", "scamming poor", etc.

In Scott's first chapter, he and a friend meet 'sensual' mulattas, one of whom wants to be his "Belem girlfriend". Why? Is she literate? Is she from the Interior of Para'? Was she raped as a child? What limited her choices? Are any of her brothers exploited in the south of Para' where the lumber industry control each city as a fiefdom? Does she have to sleep with the manager of restaurants or stores in order to keep a job?

Or was she just born with no sense of dignity? Maybe something genetical(?).

If we get to know these people, then we get to know something about the main character and how these realities conflict with their own values.

In Jorge Amado's book, WAR OF THE SAINTS, he even showed the conflicted humanity of a hired assassain as he searched for his next victim. He did the same thing in his story about the war between the cacao ranchers in Ilheus.

If you cannot make people human enough in your stories to give some idea about their motives (and isn't motives what really defines us and differentiates us) then you just have "props" in your story. Props to satisfy your "ooh...ahhhh" foray through life. Or your "f**k them...before they "f**k us" attitude towards people who are not of your 'set'. Your own class.

The sensual woman.
The angry preto.
The exotic indian.
The confused marxist.
The greedy capitalist.
The 'nordestino'.
The favelado with his machine guns.

If that's all we're left with after reading anything (including rags like O Globo) then why write in the first place?

Of course, no one feels comfortable reading books that show contradictions, especially theirs. BUT...they continue to read them.

again, i have to reiterate, i never said villafy mst (even if i say i hate them), i just said dont make them innocent (not in a command sence but as my preferance sence and something that could affect how i feel about reading a book).there is plenty of contradiction about mst that could be dealt with...like , they do all this land grabbing and thuggy provoking and threatening but they have gotten 15 milion from government entities (not sure how that plays out on your point one)...

i agree about stereotypes . for me, making the government and the land owners the bad guys and mst the people really interested in the needs of the people and the good guys of land reform, is extremly stereotypical also...and this is the naive point of veiw most americans get with just a few years experiance in brazil or hearing about this dynamic outside of brazil....

i think you mischaractorise where i am coming from (if i represent to you the knee jerk anti comminist reaction). i learned to hate these flawed philosophies from having them shoved down my throat with large doses of hypocracy over a couple of decades down here trying to figure out why there were people who hated the usa down here..and spouting the soviet union propaganda page with castros snot all over it

yeah they have schools, but , what are they teaching ? they had a guy from farc down in rio grande de sul in one of their schools...talk about contradiction...farc is raping brazil and they are welcomed by mst...now there is contradiction that would go a long way in a book...

for me , there is a tremendous dychotomy with mst in that , they get away with things that would have other people killed or put in jail...they represent the opressed communists from the military crackdown so there is a "leave them alone. let them do their provoking and threatening and violent behaviors including murder and land occupations , because the communists were so repressed in the dictatorship...deixa eles..."...now there is contradiction for you also that could be addressed very well in a book...

you see,i see the land reform movement as a big one and mst as a rougue element in the land reform..which actualy plays out in the point i tried to make to you about black authors refering to white men as the devil. the afro american civil rights movement was an incredible social movement as you pointed out and eligah muhamid and his "white men are all devils " plays out like mst's marxist tactics in the much bigger land reform movement ( i dont know if elijah wrote a book with that but it was in the black muslim newspaper i always picked up in hyde park in the late 60's in chicago, their home)...those sentiments hurt the cause in the long run...and i can see those aspects of mst as great contradictions for a book

excellent point about the back ground of the girl trying to hook up...it is something that would be interesting to find out about. what are her motivations in life , her philosophies etc the posible lincs to her family to dynamics that are going down in the novel.. i have never dealt with a woman or even just observed from a distance a woman i could be passionate about with out wondering about those things

i definitly find surface descriptions of easy women with out going into more of where they come from and what they are really like , boring

something that would intrigue me is as this gringo is going through his moral trepidations about his love at home and then goes ahead and has easy sex with these girls , id like to see his girl at home going buck wild on the local studs....now there would be some interesting charactor developement

@asp - I really don't want to discuss MST. BUT...to make a point...and perhaps you already know this. You mention that MST receives this money from the government. But you would also have to explain why.

Money to provide for education, roads and schools are given to the cities and the States. And even though Lula and some in the Federal government support MST, most of the State governments do not. And it is they who are supposed to determine whether land is productive or not and available for poor farmers to develop.

These state governments, in the majority, are right wing and their regimes have been responsible for some of the most agredious abuses against the poor farmers.

That is why they invade farms. The Federal government has a law that says that land must be "productive" BUT it is the state government who applies these federal laws and just as in Bahia, Maranhao, Para', Mato Grosso, the politicians and the landowners are almost one and the same.

Once the MST does set up these farm collective the States were NOT funding the education for these farms. So, the Federal government gives money directly to the MST to DEVELOP THESE SCHOOLS, HIRE TEACHERS, AND DO WHAT THE STATES AND THEIR CORRUPT POLITICIANS WERE NOT DOING.

So it's one thing to throw out numbers but it's important to give the context why these things exist. There are about 1 million people working because of MST.

That's better than what Maranhao, Piaui and Bahia has done through the ACM and Sarney regimes.

The best way to end the marxist leanings of MST is to make Brazil's democracy function and its capitalism more inclusive. I have many friends who are not marxist and are trying to play it by the so-called capitalist and democratic rules of Brazil. And while the country glories in it's rising PIB, their suffering has increased. That doesn't mean that they should turn towards marxism but it does mean that capitalism and democracy as manifested in Brazil has no moral standing to judge what alternatives others turn to as they search for justice.

Those who have a heart for justice in Brazil need to begin the task of questioning the status quo, taking control of their democracy and creating a society that places people before greed.

and that is why we are ending up here, in spite of your valiant efforts to try to make it into more of a writers work shop...

its just there is a very powerful dynamic shaping up in south america in general, and if you clear away certain smoke and haze , you come smack dab into the spectre of the hammer and cycle with castros snot on it...

i dont blame capatilism or democracy on the problems in brazil now,i blame corruption and lines of division between the haves and the have nots that were set in motion for centuries...

actualy , i hate hyper greedy unregulated capitalism more than i hate the red flaggers. they hurt the usa worse than any communist or fundimental terrorist islamic ,radicle fundimentalist christions in the form of abortion doctor killer , and jewish fanatics, all groups i despise . if people dont recognise that all those stupid phrases like greed is good and the principles running wild in the bush administration , failed us miserably, the dont have thier heads on straight

i beleive in capitalism with a concience. capitalism with social programs that will at least give people who are the least fortunate in society a chance to pull themselves up if they want to...i dont beleive in any of that obama is a socialist crap or that any social programs equal communism like the sick right is spreading in the usa

but i definitly see a lot of ignorance being spread in south america in relation to the anti capitalist anti usa brigade .like a virus that spreads and just wont go away in the face of reality that shows many times over in the world how flawed it is

but, especialy the ones who advise threatening, provoking, violent confrontations in the name of flawed ideologies, are the most destuctive to any real progress against the large unjustices that exist...

just to address in a general way some of your generalisations,education, what education ? what are they teaching ? a flawed philosophy ? my son just going to regular school, mostly public and a little private, constantly heard flawed biased ideas about the usa ready to invade the amazon with a suposed text book in american schools implying everyone owned the amazon and the usa would have the right to go in and take it over if they needed...something jornal do brasil had a specific editorial saying this was false..and many other false facts, imagine what mst is teaching ? they had a guy from farc down there in the mst camp in rio grande de sul, as an educator...

this threatening and thuggy violence wrapped in ideology is what rubs me and a lot of people the wrong way. mst could have been very popular with the people down here, but, incident after incident kept bringing out the flawed confrontations in the name of ideology and people started seeing the reality of them...

para is a mess, there is lots of bad stuff up there. i think some of the other states you mentioned arnt as bad. the government under henriques cardozo started making good progress in land reform areas, but the mst kept doing dumb confrontational things like ripping up plants and destroying things in a farm in rio grande de sul because they were transgenical seeds, or violently destroying thousands of orange trees just recently in rio grande de sul, or protesting outside the american embassy right after 9/11..what the hell has that got to do with land reform? destruction destruction, violence violence, confrontation and provocation at every step of the way with them...its a turn off and based in flawed ideological beleifs that have failed miserably in the world

land reform is huge in brazil and it is complex, its much bigger than mst.people need to know of the other groups involved and support them.i beleive the people can make the right choices. the comments in the terra article i referenced showed an overwelming disgust with them.

that is why how they are portrayed carries weight....im stil not saying they have to be vilified, but, portaying them as innocent (which this author implied he wasnt going to do) ? at least it deserves to be discussed....

and that is why we are ending up here, in spite of your valiant efforts to try to make it into more of a writers work shop...

Dude, why do you have to walk into a trap again? Dont you remember the latest feud you had with that Ozzie "Brazuca"?

I am perfectly happy with the explanations of Dr.Adriano. You have been here for the past 23 years, whereas Doto Adriano has been for just 7 years and Brazuca for about 9 months.

I know how your devious mind works, though. You want Scott to "meter pau" in all those "coroneis" trying to turn our country into a "Plantation" again. A writer can not take sides and he has to take into consideration the "Commercial Value" of his books. If a writer is paid adequately by the parties involved, he can romanticize the highest bidder.

Who wrote the biography of the predecessor of our current "Ruler",in English? If you answer my question correctly, you will be able to understand Adrian´s points of view from a clearer perspective.

....ah , you know, any excuse for a long winded speech...isnt what this forum is about ? venting.....

judging from some of your recent uncharactoristicly venomous retorts on here to some disrespectful posters, looks like you have been venting too.....yeah the chuvas always bring out the best in us....

Let's go back to writing. BUT, this one thing I know for a FACT, length of time in Brazil has NOTHING to do with one's knowledge of their own country. It should...but "infelizmente" it doesn't. For many Brazilians their length of time in their own country only marks how long they have been ignorant of their own country and depend upon O GLOBO for 'education'.

This...I KNOW!

I am not accusing you guys of that but suggesting that opinions supported by logic and facts is the ONLY way to discuss things not by a listing of "how much time" pedigree.

Those who have truly lived a life with their eyes open in their own countries should easily use LOGIC supported by FACTS to blow away anyone who has not been there as long.

That's how it SHOULD BE....but.....

You length of time anywhere only gives you the right to the intensity of your emotions about a given thing. It does not automatically imply informed analysis.

Okay...I lied...one last point...the farming industry in Brazil has been slowly taken over by multi-national interests. This happens not just in Brazil but in many other underdeveloped countries. To increase crop yields and therefore, increase their profits, these multi-nationals encourage farmers to become dependent upon seeds and fertilizers that are technologically developed in these developed countries. The expense of these seeds and fertilizers effectively blocks small farmers from entering the agricultural industry.

This is well-known around the world and not just MST but farmers in France, Africa and other places are protesting against this new type of 'colonialism' of underdeveloped countries.

That's what MST's protest has to do with "land reform".

Do I need to be in Brazil 30 years to understand that?

We'll take this up later in the appropriate forum.

tchau amigos. Let's give Scott's forum back to him.

By the way, please do not compare me with Brazuca. You comments to some of his posts have been spot on.

And I'm definitely not trying to engage you in a yin-yang, hazy discussion about "absolute and subjective morality". Yuck!

Joao - about "taking sides"

In fiction, a writer CAN take sides. Depends upon what market he wants to reach. The writers of those horrendous novelas take sides all of the time. NON-fiction is supposed to be objective BUT the hack job done by Ali Kamel on NAO SOMOS RACISTAS puts that to a lie.

Unfortunately, integrity in fiction is up to the writer.

In the United States, the indigenous American Indians were portrayed as blood-thirsty savages fighting against the brave settlers. This happened for decades and these 'westerns' (what you guys call bang-bangs) were read and watched by millions who were completely misled about the true culture of the American Indians.

Unfortunate.

Which is why I would call for the absolute democracy and inclusion for writers in literature (and not the domination by these so-called literary "immortals")

Okay...I lied...one last point..

Okay, Adrian. Your lie is called "white Lie", like I lied when I called you a "Redneck" . Probably you don't know that we have a thick file on you. BTW, could you as a writer explain why they call it a "white lie" and not "black lie", "Mulatto lie", etc;?

BUT...BUT.... I have been trying to cajole my good buddy ASP to write a castigating article on this MST and other issues that affect our country. If he decides to do so, I would like you to be the proof reader.BUT...BUT... if you refuse to do, I will be left with no other alternative except to undertake this task myself or outsource to another Aristocrat Brasilian who writes "Queen´s English" and a close friend of ours.

tchau amigos. Let's give Scott's forum back to him.

Yeah, I second your motion.

Which is why I would call for the absolute democracy and inclusion for writers in literature (and not the domination by these so-called literary "immortals")

That was a knock out punch, old chap! I second this second motion of yours too.

Take care and look forward to be in touch.

....and good luck on both you alls profesional writing...

joao, i decline writing an article....too much brain tax on my existential in the moment flow...you wouldnt want to spoil that ...

it would be like asking miles davis to write a symphony and not improvise...