Brazzil

I have often wondered why the Brazillian justice system is the way it is ie One thousand people shot and killed every year by the police in Rio as opposed to 13 people shot in the city of New York during the same time period. However, having recently visited two former Portuguese colonies, Mozambique and Angola, I have come to the conclusion that majority of the ills of Brazil such as lack of empathy for the poor, no recognition of human rights and rampant corruption are a legacy of portuguese colonialism. The Portuguese and the belgians were the worst colonialists, they designed their colonies for exploitation without a plan for development. The same mindset permeates all former portuguese colonies today, that is why the political class in Rio believe that the violence can simply be solved by wiping out the poor and building walls to separate them from the rich. Let us all hope Brazil has a plan in the near future to combat these ills or else she will have a rude awakening during the olympics and the world cup.

Problems exist there, no one will disagree about it. You can still see the potholes in the streets and down the roads. There are also long queues of people awaiting a word to be given on their health.

You can, also, see a lot of people not being able to afford a place to live, nor even to buy a pencil to follow classes. And the rule of the law is also sometimes missing. That said, it is effectively what I call human rights.

However, such those problems are just different in different places. It's not like they exist only in Brazil. For instance, who are you guys in the U.S. to drill 'human rights' through our ears?

Especially when U.S. government has effectively abducted people abroad outside the rule of the law based upon terrorism charges. That's absence of the rule of the law.

Remember also the Pakistani member of the IOC asking Mr. Obama about people being drilled through by security officers at U.S. airports. That's treating others as criminals with no proof. Isn't that a 'human rights' issue?

Let's keep a healthy dialogue.

The United States was attacked by Al Qaeda, over three thousand people were killed, yet this morning the U.S. government is bringing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed before a court to be judged by the people with all the legal protection the courts have to offer. I suppose you believe you are being patriotic when you defend the indefensible. Further,Last friday, a senior congressman from Louisiana was sentenced to 13 years for corruption. Can that happen in Brazil. You simply cannot excuse the blatant abuse of human rights in Brazil. Here, we confront our problems, we dont put our heads in the sand and say there is no poverty, racism or classism, we also do not build fences to keep the poor out. If a policeman shoots a killer to death after arresting him, he will go to jail. You simply cannot excuse the random killing of so called gangsters who have no other way to make a living.

Charles,

It's important to realize when arguing with a Brasilian that everything must be black and white. There are no orders of magnitude. One human rights violation is the same as one million. One murder a year is the same as 45,000. Therefore, it is futile to argue logically with a Brasilian. As long as the U.S. or any other country as just one human or civil right violation, in Brasilian eyes it will be identical to Brasil's annual tally of millions of violations. This type of faulty logic applies from the most trivial to the most serious of Brasilian arguments. It makes no sense, but that's that way most Brasilians seem to think.

This type of faulty logic applies from the most trivial to the most serious of Brasilian arguments.

Why do you think we are so illogical? Is it possible that our country in located in some kind of a strange magnetic field that affects our brains? Any scientific or psychic explanations from you will be highly appreciated by all the bloggers. Please also include in your report, the countermeasures to minimize or altogether eliminate this phenomenon.

Response
written by Charles Scott, November 16, 2009
I have recently visited two former Portuguese colonies, Mozambique and Angola, I have come to the conclusion that majority of the ills of Brazil such as lack of empathy for the poor, no recognition of human rights and rampant corruption are a legacy of portuguese colonialism. The Portuguese and the belgians were the worst colonialists, they designed their colonies for exploitation without a plan for development. The same mindset permeates all former portuguese colonies today.

Scott,obviously yourobservations & writing above are not on point.
First of all the Portuguese wer not the wrost, but the best & even brazilians historians/writers have written about that.
Second, how about the french, spanish, Were their colonizztions any different, no, onthe contrary worst, just go to those countries & or talk to those people & you will see that your observations are limited @ best. And what do you say about India, do you consider their poverty a blame on the british or the indian people/politicians own lack of empathy.
For you to say that the Portuguese lack empathy, shows how little you know about Portugal & the Portuguese people, On the contrary they care sympathetic than the Anglos, they don't always brag about what they do, but they do help the poor in Portugal & Brazil thru their many charities & organizations. Portugal has many programs, etc. Just like in the u.s.a. but most people because of shame don't utilize them, because they are proud.
For example when Marcelo Caetano was PM before being deposed he had signed for a form of welfare for those that live below the poverty line,not much, but it helped the ones that needed most. and that was a Fascist country @ the time.
It is very easy for people to judge what happened two hundred years ago, what colonists did & for what reason is no excuse for the way the politicians of their own countries treat their own at all; again look @ India, Africa in general, rest of South America.
Do you think that Chile is blaming Spain for all their ills, at least they have a better democracy now, they brought Pinochet to justice; what has Brazil done in that regard?

...
written by João da Silva, November 17, 2009
This type of faulty logic applies from the most trivial to the most serious of Brasilian arguments.

Why do you think we are so illogical? Is it possible that our country in located in some kind of a strange magnetic field that affects our brains? Any scientific or psychic explanations from you will be highly appreciated by all the bloggers. Please also include in your report, the countermeasures to minimize or altogether eliminate this phenomenon.

Yes, i know the answer, it is all that macumba that's been practice for god knows how long, pay, pay, pay.
Solution, bomb the whole country, leave no stone unturn.
Start with a clean slate.

I will respond to Susu's argument with an old adage."When you want to make an argument, use actual facts". You have made two glaring statements that have absolutely no basis in fact. First you state that portuguese colonialism was the best, then you compare it to the colonization of the french and the spanish. Let history be our teacher here. How many factories did the portuguese leave in Angola, Mozambique, Macao or Goa. How many of the nations colonized by the Portuguese achieved their independence through peaceful means. How many schools did portugal leave in its former colonies. Even though all racial domination is wrong, the British built Fourah Bay College in Sierra Leone. They took steps to stop the Slave Trade,they patroled the high seas to ensure that slave ships did not reach their destinations in the Americas. They established Sierra Leone and Liberia for returned slaves. They built over 15 Universities in Western and eastern Africa. Look at all the countries they colonized including India. How many world renowned scientists and nobel winners has India produced, all of which would have been impossible without a British education. I hate to digress, but mention one person that has had any impact on the world that came out of a former portuguese colony in Africa. Did the portuguese not attempt to destroy everything they built in these countries once it became clear they had to leave.

I suggest you study books on colonialism, read a book known as "Hearts of Darkness" and after that read any book on the Angolan civil war. You will conclude that the Portuguese were the worst in all matters of colonialism.
What are the common denominators that run through all of Portugal's former colonies, rampant corruption, lack of basic human rights, lack of empathy for the have nots, racism and classism. Like another contributor said violation of human rights is wrong anywhere, but where the police can kill a thousand of probably mostly poor people with impunity and receive incentives for doing so, it is espescially wrong and must be condemned.

What are the common denominators that run through all of Portugal's former colonies, rampant corruption, lack of basic human rights, lack of empathy for the have nots, racism and classism.

Thanks Charlie,for your attempts to explain our lack of logic. You are blaming the Portuguese culture we inherited. Fine, at least you haven't held some scientific or psychic phenomenon responsible for our odd and unacceptable behavior.I read the comment by "Susu" wherein she has brought in "Macumba" and obviously she displays veiled racism and implies that the our Afro-Brasilian brethren are responsible for spreading lack of logic among all /b]the Brasilians and not our Portuguese colonial masters.Her solution of bombing our whole country and starting from a clean state is unacceptable economically, socially, morally and the U.N. is bound to protest at such a "final solution". It also demonstrates very clearly that she also lacks in logical reasoning while analyzing the problems and coming out with alternative solutions.

While I agree with you to certain extent, on the virtues of being colonized by the Brits, I regretfully have to include the French also in the category of Portuguese, Spanish and the Italians. Look at the track record of all our Sorbonne trained leaders during the past 25 years, the French history of colonization of Indo-China and Algeria. You will agree with me that they are also illogical.

I think its relevant here to remember that Brazil was a miltary dicatorship for many years, and within many Brazilians' lifetimes. The attitude to the police force and the civil rights of convicted criminals may well be a legacy from the attitudes of those times.

One legacy of the Military dictatorship is a very hard attitude to criminals. Maybe its just not politically expedient, yet, for any political party to propose spending a lot of money on improving conditions in prisons. But Brazil is still a young democracy undergoing massive change.

written by thewoman, November 17, 2009
Charles,

It's important to realize when arguing with a Brasilian that everything must be black and white. There are no orders of magnitude. One human rights violation is the same as one million. One murder a year is the same as 45,000. Therefore, it is futile to argue logically with a Brasilian. As long as the U.S. or any other country as just one human or civil right violation, in Brasilian eyes it will be identical to Brasil's annual tally of millions of violations. This type of faulty logic applies from the most trivial to the most serious of Brasilian arguments. It makes no sense, but that's that way most Brasilians seem to think.

Truer words were never spoken and you obviously have a good understanding of the brazilian mindset.

Being the exception instead of the rule, in regards to being the rule instead of the exception, makes absoulutely no sense to a brazilian. He simply can't get his head around it.

Or, in reality he can, but his everlasting patriotism in which he has no idea what for simply yearns for justifications.

Or, in reality he can, but his everlasting patriotism in which he has no idea what for simply yearns for justifications.

Brasilians being illogical, because of their "everlasting patriotism"? You don't sound too convincing. The other commentator "Giselle" has a good point there, but her justification would be unacceptable to the noble members of OAB, who are the most illogical of all the Brasilians. Do some more research into the "cause" and "effects" and who knows you may get a doctoral degree from the UFS.

written by Charles Scott, November 17, 2009
First you state that portuguese colonialism was the best, then you compare it to the colonization of the french and the spanish. Let history be our teacher here. How many factories did the portuguese leave in Angola, Mozambique, Macao or Goa.

http://www.country-studies.com/angola/industry.html
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Africa/Angola-INDUSTRY.html

-Charlie, I will correct myself & did use the wrong word "Best" what i meant to say that it was the least dreadful compared to all the others-

-How many of the nations colonized by the Portuguese achieved their independence through peaceful means.

-Charlie, All of them were achieved by peaceful means, it was the civil war that ravage those countries-
-After the Carnation Revolution in Lisbon, over 250,000 ethnic Portuguese pulled out virtually overnight,[4] leaving unmanageable Mozambique's economy and administration. With the exodus of trained Portuguese personnel, the newly-independent country had no time to allocate resources in order to maintain its well-developed infrastructure.

How many schools did portugal leave in its former colonies. Even though all racial domination is wrong, the British built Fourah Bay College in Sierra Leone.
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/University_of_Agostinho_Neto
and what has come out of Sierra Leone i ask?

They took steps to stop the Slave Trade,they patroled the high seas to ensure that slave ships did not reach their destinations in the Americas.

-Maybe because british ships wer loaded with opium, you must know that that the british empire was built on "opium" so tell us about that.

Look at all the countries they colonized including India. How many world renowned scientists and nobel winners has India produced, all of which would have been impossible without a British education.

-So you are asserting that withpout a british education these scientist would have not achieved the nobel prize; so how do you explain all the other nobel winners that come from countries that were not colonized at all.
So how do you explain the middle east with all it's riches & africa, asia, etc. Is their situations also due to colonialism, i think not.

I hate to digress, but mention one person that has had any impact on the world that came out of a former portuguese colony in Africa.

-but the same can be said about the spanish, french, dutch, belgians, aussies, etc.

Did the portuguese not attempt to destroy everything they built in these countries once it became clear they had to leave.

-No as i said above they left because of the civil war tht broke off. I'msure you must of had read that somewhere.

I suggest you study books on colonialism, read a book known as "Hearts of Darkness" and after that read any book on the Angolan civil war. You will conclude that the Portuguese were the worst in all matters of colonialism.

-Charlie, the problem is tht too many books are wirtten, bias or not; wht i do know is that at the end of the day we are all responsible for our own destiny & the aftermath has been proven that they are far worst then any colonizer or not.

What are the common denominators that run through all of Portugal's former colonies, rampant corruption, lack of basic human rights, lack of empathy for the have nots, racism and classism.

-That is a worldwide phenomenon not exclusive to the Portuguese.

Like another contributor said violation of human rights is wrong anywhere, but where the police can kill a thousand of probably mostly poor people with impunity and receive incentives for doing so, it is espescially wrong and must be condemned.

-True, but why blame the Portuguese for that, that is what you're doing, look at Aussies & their past/history; decendants of prisoners, etc. Do you see the Aussies sitting around & just blame/deny all of their ills on the british or for that matter British Guyana, Ireland; how do you explain the british in that regard?

"wherein she has brought in "Macumba" and obviously she displays veiled racism and implies that the our Afro-Brasilian brethren are responsible for spreading lack of logic among all/b]the Brasilians and not our Portuguese colonial masters."

-No Joao i am not blaming your AFrican brothers, Macumba is widely practiced in Brazil & is part of daily life, everyone knows about it, looks for it when needed,etc. Althought yes, it's beginnign are africn by no means am i blaming the africans.
I for one don't care for Magic, i believe in GOD, but i do believe that when you expand more energy on getting results this way for ages,there is a price to pay. Just look @ Brazil, Haiti, India & the rest of south america & africa, you rally don't think there is a spiritual correlation? Please.

Charles Scott,

I would just like to say that then it would be safe for me to say that the drug problems of the world can be traced back to the british Opium empire?
Lastly, just remember that although the brits may have been wealthier or more knowledgeable it didn't give them the will to go out & brave & conquer the seas like the Portuguese & Spanish did, did they?
So you & the world should consider that as the GREATEST & NOBLEST achievement above all. It is to me.

And don’t worry about Bo(bão). Remember his hidden agenda, to bash Brasil every opportunity he gets and yet, he is getting his Brasilian citizenship and not planning on leaving Brasil anytime soon, that is, back to the basement of his mother’s apartment in Indiana.

Bo(bão) is simply bizarre…. A sore looser if you will. He just cannot not get pass losing his wife to a Brasilian guy. In fact, his dating is not doing any better either.

Example: He asked this good looking Brasilian woman… Can I buy you a drink? She replied… Not really, I’d rather take the money! Then being stubborn as we all know he is, he asks her… “Do you want to go out this weekend? Then she says, No, I am planning on having a headache this Saturday and Sunday!

Poor Bo(bão), he just does not get it…. Born a looser and condemned to die a looser….

Hugs,

Costinha

Susu, stop comparing apples with oranges. This is a Brazillian website. If it was a website about Australia, I would have spoken about the actions of the British government is setting Australia up as a penal colony.

Second you mention that the Brits (even though I do not want to defend them) did not go out and conquer the world as the Portuguese and the french did. Not discounting the fact that the portuguese were great explorers, I do not know where you get your facts from, but I would like to point you to the encyclopedia Brittanica or Wikipedia, in it you will learn that for over 200 years, the British had the most powerful naval fleet in the world and was the world's first superpower.

Third, you state that Angola was destroyed not by the Portuguese but by the civil war, that in itself is a disingenious statement, was Augustino Neto(Angolan Patriot) not imprisoned by the portuguese authorities for advocating a free Angola.Did he not die because of all the illnesses he suffered as a result of his incarceration. Did the fleeing colonial authorities not strip everything of value from Angola and Mozambique at their departure. Did the Portuguese armed forces not arm UNITA and Jonas Savimbi which in turn led to the warrantless deaths of so many. Did the Portuguese Armed Forces not assist the South African army when they attacked Luanda. These are historical facts that cannot be disputed.Did they not do the same in Mozambique killing millions of Black Africans.
As for your statement, what has come out of Sierra Leone, pls note that all of the leaders of the Anti Colonial movement that eventually got rid of the british were themselves trained at Fourah Bay College.

The fact remains that my statement stands. that "all former portuguese colonies have aertain blights in common, nothing you say can change that.

Susu, stop comparing apples with oranges. This is a Brazillian website. If it was a website about Australia, I would have spoken about the actions of the British government is setting Australia up as a penal colony.

I am not comparing apples with oranges, yes, it's a brazilian website, but if you had spoken only on the "humar rights" issue as the article speaks of, fine, but you didn't & you just kept going about the Portuguese,etc.
I have every right just like you to answer, whether you like it or not.


Second you mention that the Brits (even though I do not want to defend them) did not go out and conquer the world as the Portuguese and the french did. Not discounting the fact that the portuguese were great explorers, I do not know where you get your facts from, but I would like to point you to the encyclopedia Brittanica or Wikipedia, in it you will learn that for over 200 years, the British had the most powerful naval fleet in the world and was the world's first superpower.

That was not my point whether they had a better naval fleet or not after the fact, i meant discoveries, with all that knowledge & power they had why didn't they, that's the question?
And where do i get my facts from, Charles please you mentioned wikipedia, that's for high school kids & i would like to believe that you're not a kid. If you paid attentiont o the links above you can see that they are not from Wikipedia.

Third, you state that Angola was destroyed not by the Portuguese but by the civil war, that in itself is a disingenious statement, was Augustino Neto(Angolan Patriot) not imprisoned by the portuguese authorities for advocating a free Angola.

So what Mandela was imprisoned too & countelss others in other countries. Were the Portuguese the only ones that imprisoned political prisoners?

Did he not die because of all the illnesses he suffered as a result of his incarceration.

So, so did many others in Angola & other countries; didn't the british kill countless indians, place them in caves without water, slaughter them, etc?

Did the fleeing colonial authorities not strip everything of value from Angola and Mozambique at their departure.

And who hasn't done that,again is that exclusive to Portuguese authorities?

Did the Portuguese armed forces not arm UNITA and Jonas Savimbi which in turn led to the warrantless deaths of so many.

I'm sure they had their reasons, who are you & i to question the motives; the last time i checked all powers that be have Power & Interests in mind.

Did the Portuguese Armed Forces not assist the South African army when they attacked Luanda. These are historical facts that cannot be disputed.

I am not disputing whteher they occurred or not, my issue with you is that you're making it seem that this only occurred in Angola & becuase of the Portuguese,a gain i repeat, human beings do what's in their interests. Have you rea up on South Africa, Zimbabwe,e tc.

Did they not do the same in Mozambique killing millions of Black Africans.

And who hasn't killed millions of black Africans, they also kill tehmselves among all their factions in all other african countries, so is that different when they kill/rape/steal among themselves as opposed to others or a colonizer?

As for your statement, what has come out of Sierra Leone, pls note that all of the leaders of the Anti Colonial movement that eventually got rid of the british were themselves trained at Fourah Bay College.

And so what, again your stating that the fact that these patriots went to british built schools were the reason why they got rid of the british.
Charles, people don't need college education to overthrow governments, look @ Mandela, Lech Walesa, Lula among many.

And you are calling me disingenuos, i answered your statements above & proved you wrong, you claimed they id not build universities; they did?
You claim they had no infrastructure, they did, they just picked up & left, the rasons/motives is left to each,not for you to sit there & make yourself seem like an expert on the demise of others just because you claim to read so many books, i read books too, believe it or not & you're not going to tell me to what conclusions i am coming too.

The fact remains that my statement stands. that "all former portuguese colonies have certain blights in common, nothing you say can change that.

Your statement will stand in this forum only just like mine, thank god you have no other power; your entitled to your opinion just as much as i am.
You shoul've stayed on point just like the above poster Wagner & others.

It is ridiculous to blame the Portuguese for all of the contemporary problems in Brazil.

It would be ridiculous to blame the British for all the contemporary problems in the United States.

The argument rings with an insinuation of "the white man is father."

Mestizos, mulattoes, blacks, and poor whites throughout Latin America must stop blaming the white man and the rich for everything. Brazil is no worse off than India (formerly run by the Brits) or Vietnam (formerly run by the French).

People that hate religions, or organized religion, will not like to hear this, but at least a tiny part of the problem today, in my opinion at least, is that we view all of the modern world as better in every respect to the "Dark Ages" or even the High Middle Ages.

Some of the slums of Indonesia (Dutch and I believe a former British colony too, if I remember correctly) and of Sao Paulo are beyond the horrors of rural life during the Middle Ages (some of the urban life was just as bad). And during the latter stages of European Inquisition the jails were arguably superior to even some American jails, let alone those nightmares of incarceration called Brazilian and Indian (India) jails.

We need to ask ourselves sometimes, "Have we actually went in reverse?"

I'm mulatto and a gringo, but it pains me to see the state of much of mestizo, mulatto, and black Latin America. And admittedly a good deal of the economic depression in those parts has been effected by the neo-colonialism of the U.S. in the past. As well as a longer absence of industrialization throughout Latin America.

I'm sure a multitude of other variables exist. Corruption being a large one.

Those backward prisons are only going to fuel the violence in Brazil. They will only further exacerbate the NGO (Non-Governmental Organizations) problems we call gangs.

And I'm not entirely against gangs. But you don't have to be white or an American to think, ask question, and try to come up with creative solutions. Brazilians can do this, they just need to think like citizens of a democracy rather than subjects of a crown. Citizenship means you are actively responsible for the world you live in.

Thanks for your views e harmony. I wrote my statement after something I personally witnessed after a tour of former Portuguese colonies and compared them with countries that had been colonized by others. There is no doubt that all colonialism is wrong, but that of the portuguese was of the most odious type in the sense that all their colonies were specifically designed to strip the colony for resources that were sent to the homeland.The Portuguese also had a form of racial discrimination that was similar to that of the Afrikaner.
Rather than address the key issues of my argument, Susu insists on engaging in nonsensical arguments that lack absolutely no preamble. He claims Wikipedia is a high school link but has not explained whether the facts I claimed were listed on Wikipedia were wrong and this is from an individual that claims "he does not believe what he reads in books". That brings us to the point, if you do not believe what you read in books and you do not conduct research, where exactly do you get your facts. Rather than deal with the facts, you insist on denying every issue brought before you. I suggested books to you that you have not read, yet you claimed that Portuguese colonialism was the best. The best as compared to what, that of Apartheid South Africa or that of King Leopold.
In your baseless diatribe, you let slip the basis of your beliefs by inadvertently stating that the Portuguese were not the only ones that stripped their former colonies of the things they built. Actually, it was the portuguese and the belgians that did exactly that. Since you claim to know otherwise, tell me what the British took from India at independence, or exactly what they took from any of their Carribean countries at independence.
You claim all others also armed UNITA, that is not the issue, the issue is that the Portuguese did this at a time when all other european powers had granted their colonies independence or were working towards it.
You claim that people do not need education to overthrow governments, that might be partially true, but at least it is a necessary companent, just look, Mandela-Lawyer, Che Guevera-Medical Doctor, Fidel Castro-Lawyer. I am not aware of Lula overthrowing Portugal, he only engaged in internal politics. My point which I am sure you grasped is that other colonial powers tried to put a semblance of administrative government in place for the natives to take over, while the Portuguese did not.
Finally, you stated that the Black Africans kill themselves in the millions and that that is no different from colonialism. This statement of yours marks you to be quite dense, that is the exact position that was taken by all all those that brutalized Africa. Did Europeans also not kill and pillage themselves for centuries, but does that warrant others to have the right to subjugate and colonise them.
In my response to you, I mentioned names, I gave you specific instances, yet you replied in a very simplistic manner and tried to claim that someone is trying to prevent you from airing your opinions. Nobody is trying to do that, but it would help if you at least knew what you were talking about. If the Portugal that you claim to represent is such an advanced country, why does it remain one of the most backward countries in Europe, when did they send someone to the moon, or win a war, or even have a stock market. Please, give me a break, use your spare time to get some education. If you were a lawyer, all your clients would be found guilty.

written by Charles Scott, November 28, 2009
Thanks for your views e harmony. I wrote my statement after something I personally witnessed after a tour of former Portuguese colonies and compared them with countries that had been colonized by others. There is no doubt that all colonialism is wrong, but that of the portuguese was of the most odious type in the sense that all their colonies were specifically designed to strip the colony for resources that were sent to the homeland.

-CHARLES AGAIN THOSE WERE YOUR OBSERVATIONS AND OPINIONS, I SIMPLY DISAGREE WITH YOUR ASESSMENT.

The Portuguese also had a form of racial discrimination that was similar to that of the Afrikaner.

-NOW THAT IS THE FIRST TIME THAT SOMEONE HAS EQUALED THE AFRIKANER RACISM TO THAT OF THE PORTUGUESE, ON THE CONTRARY CHARLES, THE PORTUGUESE FORM OF RACISM WAS MUCH MORE MILD & TOLERANT, HENCE THE MISCEGENTAION THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE COUNTRIES THEY COLONIZED. I WOUDL HARDLY COMPARE THE PORTUGUESE TO ANYTHING ANGLO/SAXON.
IT'S LIKE COMPARING NIGHT & DAY.

Rather than address the key issues of my argument, Susu insists on engaging in nonsensical arguments that lack absolutely no preamble. He claims Wikipedia is a high school link but has not explained whether the facts I claimed were listed on Wikipedia were wrong and this is from an individual that claims "he does not believe what he reads in books".

-CHARLES WHERE DID I SAY IN MY RESPONSE TO YOU ABOVE THAT I DON'T READ BOOKS, I READ JUST LIKE YOU, IT'S THAT WE ARE READING DIFFERENT ONES & OUR OPINIONS DIFFER. THAT'S ALL. YOU TALK ABOUT BOOKS, BUT YOU DIDN'T LIST ANY BOOK NAMES AT ALL THAT YOU REFER TO. I ON THE OTEHR HAND PROVIDED YOU WITH LINKS TO DISPUTE YOUR ASSERTIONS WHICH WERE WRONG. AND I PROVED YOU WRONG.

That brings us to the point, if you do not believe what you read in books and you do not conduct research, where exactly do you get your facts. Rather than deal with the facts, you insist on denying every issue brought before you.

STOP TWISTING THINGS AROUND, I DON'T DENY ANY ISSUE YOU CLAIMED, I SIMPLY DISAGREE. I READ BOOKS, READ ARTICLES, WATCH JOURNALS, TRAVEL, TALK TO PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY LIVE IN THOSE COUNTRIES, ETC.
WE ARE JUST NOT READING THE SAME BOOKS OBVIOUSLY.

I suggested books to you that you have not read.

WHERE DID YOU SUGGEST THESE BOOKS CHARLES, I WENT BACK & REVW'D YOUR RESPONSES, I DON'T SEE ANY LINKS OR NAMES OF BOOKS YOU SUGGESTED.
AGAIN ONLY YOUR OBSERVATIONS WHICH TO ME ARE MEANINGLESS.

yet you claimed that Portuguese colonialism was the best. The best as compared to what, that of Apartheid South Africa or that of King Leopold.

I WILL CORRECT YOU AGAIN, I CORRECTED MYSELF TO SAY THE "BEST" IN OTEHR AREAS RATHER THAN ECONOMICALLY. MORE TOLERANT,ETC.
AND YES AS COMPARED TO THE AFRIKANERS OR BELGIANS THEY WERE SAINTS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilberto_Freyre
specically paragraph 3 under biography.

In your baseless diatribe, you let slip the basis of your beliefs by inadvertently stating that the Portuguese were not the only ones that stripped their former colonies of the things they built. Actually, it was the portuguese and the belgians that did exactly that. Since you claim to know otherwise, tell me what the British took from India at independence, or exactly what they took from any of their Carribean countries at independence.

WHAT THE PORTUGUESE OR BELGIANS TOOK IS OF NO CONCERN TO YOU OR ME, THEY DID HOW THEY SAW FIT. IT IS EASY FOR YOU TO SIT THER & JUDGE RAS TO WHY SOMEONE WOULD DO THIS OR THAT. THEY DID WHAT WAS IN THEIR BEST INTERESTS @ THE TIME. THAT IS NOT FOR YOU OR I TO QUESTION AS TO WHY YOUR PARENTS COMPARED TO MINE WOULD MAKE DIFFERENT DECISIONS GIVEN THAT IF ALL FACTORS WERE THE SAME, THAT'S HOW HUMANS OPERATE.
PLEASE READ & THAT SHOULD ANSER ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS:

http://blackstarjournal.blogspot.com/2006/10/british-genocide-in-kenya.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2005/dec/27/eu.turkey
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepoy_Mutiny

You claim all others also armed UNITA, that is not the issue, the issue is that the Portuguese did this at a time when all other european powers had granted their colonies independence or were working towards it.

SO WHAT, WHAT PORTUGUESE AR YOU REFERRING TO, THE PORTUGUESE GOVERNMENT THAT GAVE INDEPENDENCE OR FACTIONS OF PORTUGUESE?

You claim that people do not need education to overthrow governments, that might be partially true, but at least it is a necessary companent, just look, Mandela-Lawyer, Che Guevera-Medical Doctor, Fidel Castro-Lawyer.

You claim that people do not need education to overthrow governments, that might be partially true, but at least it is a necessary companent, just look, Mandela-Lawyer, Che Guevera-Medical Doctor, Fidel Castro-Lawyer.

And look how well they did, they have their people/country interests at heart right? Can you see how well they are doing on thei rown.

My point which I am sure you grasped is that other colonial powers tried to put a semblance of administrative government in place for the natives to take over, while the Portuguese did not.

AGAIN, THAT IS YOUR OPINION, YOU HAVE NOT QUOTED ANY BOOK, OR LINK TO PROVE YOUR ASSERTIONS/OPINION. I ON THE CONTRARY HAVE,SINCE I INITIALLY RESPONDED TO YOU.

Finally, you stated that the Black Africans kill themselves in the millions and that that is no different from colonialism. This statement of yours marks you to be quite dense, that is the exact position that was taken by all all those that brutalized Africa.

NO IT DOESN'T MAKE ME DENSE CHARLES YOUR THE ONE THAT'S DENSE, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? COLONIZERS OR NOT THEY ARE DOING WHAT THEY SEE IS IN THEIR INTERESTS. THAT IS NOT DENSE, THAT'S SEEING THINGS FOR WHAT THEY ARE & IN THE WORLD THAT I LIVE IN IT'S CALLED REALITY, NOT DISTORTION.

I am not aware of Lula overthrowing Portugal, he only engaged in internal politics.

THANK GOD FOR THAT, NOW WHY WOULD LULA MAKE SUCH A STUPID MISTAKE AS THAT. PORTUGAL WOUDL BEAT ALL OF THOSE CHICKENS HANDS DOWN.
AND SINCE WHEN DI DPORTUGAL OVERTHROW ANY GOVERNMENT?

My point which I am sure you grasped is that other colonial powers tried to put a semblance of administrative government in place for the natives to take over, while the Portuguese did not.

THA IS YOUR OPINION/ASSERTION ONLY. YOU HAVE NOT QUOTED ANY SINGLE BOOK/ARTICLE TO PROVE THAT OTHER THAN YOUR HEAR SAY & EVEN SO EVERY COLONIZER @ THE TIME DID WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS BEST, SPAIN HD NO INTENTION EITHER UNTIL THEY SAW ALL OF THEPOTENTIAL, ETC.

Finally, you stated that the Black Africans kill themselves in the millions and that that is no different from colonialism. This statement of yours marks you to be quite dense, that is the exact position that was taken by all all those that brutalized Africa.

HOW DOES THAT MEAKE ME DENSE, KILLING IS KILLING WHETHER YOU DID IT THEN OR NOW, THE REASONS ARE DIFFERENT MIND YOU, BUT ALL THE MORE REASON WHY NOW THEY SHOULD BE MORE LINIENT ON THEIR OWN.
SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

Did Europeans also not kill and pillage themselves for centuries, but does that warrant others to have the right to subjugate and colonise them.

NO, IT DOESN'T GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO SUBJEGATE OTHERS, BUT THEN AGAIN THEY ARE DOING ON TO THEMSELVES. WASN'T SLAVERY PRACTICED BLACK ON BLACK EVEN B4 THE WHITE MEN CAMW AROUND TO AFRICA?
THERE ARE BOOKS ON THAT TOO, YOU SHOULD KNOW. SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE,AGAIN WHAT IS YOUR POINT.

In my response to you, I mentioned names, I gave you specific instances, yet you replied in a very simplistic manner and tried to claim that someone is trying to prevent you from airing your opinions.

GIVING ME NAMES & INSTANCES DOES OT PROVE YOUR POINT, IT ONLY MAKES YOU THING YOU ARE PROVING YOUR POINT. I ANSWERED YOU UNEQUIVOCALLY.
YOU JUST DIDN'T APPRECITE MY ANSERS BUT I ANSWERED YOU & I GAVE YOU LINKS, NOT JUST NAMES TO DISPUTE YOUR ASSERTIONS TO WHICH YOU DID NOT RESPOND, BECAUSE THERE IS NO RESPONSE.

Nobody is trying to do that, but it would help if you at least knew what you were talking about.

-CHARLES I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING BOUT, AGAIN WE AGREE TO DISAGREE-

If the Portugal that you claim to represent is such an advanced country, why does it remain one of the most backward countries in Europe,

RALLY, NOW WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR FACTS FROM THE MOON. HERE IS YOUR WIKIPEDIA LINK TO SHOW YOU THAT PORTUGAL IS NOT A BACKWARD COUNTRY, IF IT WAS I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THE REST OF THE PRIMITIVE COUNTRIOES IN THIS WORLD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Economy_of_the_European_Union#Economies_of_member_state
s

when did they send someone to the moon, or win a war, or even have a stock market.

NOW FOR SOMEONE WHO CALLED ME DENSE, NOW THE IGNORANCE OF YOUR PEA
SIZE BRAIN IS SHOWING.
THEY WENT TO THE MOON THEN & BACK THAT WAS THE INTERNET OF THEIR TIME.
THE VOYAGES/THE WORK, ETC.
AND YES THEY HAD A STOCK MARKET, HERE IT IS: IGNORAMUS:

"History of Lisbon Stock Exchanges
On 1st January 1769, Lisbon Exchange, or more precisely, the Business Man's Assembly is installed in the small tower on the east side of the Praça do Comércio, together with the most important organisations linked to the Capital's trade.

Please, give me a break, use your spare time to get some education.
If you were a lawyer, all your clients would be found guilty.

NOW THIS IS A VERY APPROPRIATE COMMENT THAT YOU SHOULD HEED YOURSELF, TELLING ME THAT PORTUGAL DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A STOCKMARJET, HOW PATHETIC OF A HUMAN BEING CAN YOU BE. THE WORD IGNORAMUS IS TO KIND FOR YOU.

HERE IS THE NAME OF A BOOK & AUTHOR THAT YOU SHOULD MAKE A POINT OF READING & IT WILL SHOW YOU THE GREAT RACISM DIVISION THE ANGLO/SAXONS
HAVE PERMIATED THIS WORLD WITH> ENJOY.

"WHITOPIA" BY RICH BENJAMIN

SÍTIO CALDEIRÃO: NGO denounces genocide in Brazil



COMPLAINT: GENOCIDE OF “SÍTIO CALDEIRÃO” - A STORY THAT NO ONE KNOWS WHY WAS NEVER TOLD ...



NGO DEMAND IN BRAZIL MASS GRAVE WITH 1000 VICTIMS OF THE MILITARY REGIME




THE MASSACRE OFF THE BRAZILIAN HISTORY BOOKS


In CEARÁ, BRAZIL, there was a massacre committed by army forces and military police of Ceará state in 1937, against the peasant community of Catholics of “SÍTIO CALDEIRÃO”, which had as its religious leader Blessed JOSE LOURENÇO, follower of Father CICERO ROMÃO BATISTA.



THE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY


The criminal acts took place initially through aerial bombardment, and then, on the ground, the military using various weapons such as rifles, revolvers, pistols, knives and machetes, killed women, children, adolescents, elderly, sick and all living things that was within reach of their arms, acting as if at the same time, were judges and executioners.



A CIVIL ACTION BROUGHT BY THE ONG “SOS DIREITOS HUMANOS”


As the crime committed by the Army and the Military Police of Ceará State was against humanity / GENOCIDE / CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY is considered inalienable by Brazilian law and by international agreements and conventions, and so the “ SOS DIREITOS HUMANOS”, an NGO based in Fortaleza - Ceará, Brazil, filed in 2008 a Public Civil Action in Federal Court against the Federal Government and the State of Ceará, requiring that: a) they inform on the location of the mass grave, b) exhumed and identified through DNA and buried with dignity all victms in the mass grave, c) the documents about the massacre be released to the public and crime should be included in Brazil history books, d) the descendants of victims and survivors are compensated in the amount of R$ 500 thousand reais, e) other applications



EXTINCTION WITHOUT TRIAL OF MERIT OF ACTION

The Public Civil Action was extinguished without ruling on the merits on 16/09/2009 by the 16ª Federal Court in the city of Juazeiro do Norte , Ceará, Brazil.


“SOS DIREITOS HUMANOS” APPEAL BEFORE THE TRF5ª REGION

The “SOS DIREITOS HUMANOS” disagreement with the magistrate's decision of the judge, appealed to the Regional Court of the 5th Region of Recife, with the following arguments: a) there is no limitation for the massacre of the “SÍTIO CALDEIRÃO”, because it’ s a crime against humanity, b) the remains of victims of the “SÍTIO CALDEIRÃO” not disappeared from the Araripe mountain (CHAPADA DO ARARIPE), and can be founded like the Czar of the Romanov family, who was killed in 1918 and found in 1991 and 2007;



“SOS DIREITOS HUMANOS” DENOUNCES RIGHTS TO BRAZIL TO THE OAS


THE “ SOS DIREITOS HUMANOS” , like the families of the victims of the Araguaia Guerrilla, reported in 2009, the Brazilian government in the Organization of American States - OAS, human rights violations perpetrated against the community of “SÍTIO CALDEIRÃO” na Chapada do Araripe, Crato, Ceará, Brazil.



THE "URCA" AND "UFC CAN FIND MASS GRAVE


The Regional University of Cariri - URCA, the Paleontological Research Laboratory - LPPU and the Federal University of Ceará can find the mass grave, as they have technology to do so.



Peace and Solidarity,



Dr. OTONIEL AJALA DOURADO
OAB / CE 9288-55 85 8613.1197
President of SOS – DIREITOS HUMANOS
www.sosdireitoshumanos.org.br

Well said dR., but i guess charles scott only chooses to see & read what he wants & make his own interpretations as if he's the expert on the matter; obviously he never went to the countries that he claims he's been to before the civil war(s)& he would see how successful they were & all he has to do is talk to people that lived there for years & the quality of life & peace that they had.

Obviously charles chooses to ignore the ongoing human rights atrocities committed around the world, lets start with ASIA/AFRICA, ETC. obviously ASIA didn't have many colonizers, but i guess we cna blame it on someone else also, like the phillipines, blame Sapain, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc. Blame who the French.
Charles also forgets to address the brazilian dictatorship just like chile, only they hid them well like the british.
Charles, do you know aht occurred to Mata Atlantica? under the brazilians, please read up on it & then advise.