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SOE JINN
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11/20/2002
09:06:53
Subject: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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POLICE/MILITARY ASSASSINS & “QUIET” RACIAL APARTHEID IN BRAZIL

Can anyone, hopefully Brazilian (but everybody is welcome), offer explanations and answers to any of the following:

1. Are the numerous reports (the Internet is full of them) that the Brazilian police and military death squads are still being used to kill children and political targets true?

2. Many of the children that have been killed by Brazilian police/military death squads have been of African ancestry/dark skin, why is this so?

3. Have the past military backed governments of Brazil prevented Brazilians of African ancestry from speaking out about blatant economic and educational oppression? Do “Black” Brazilians have any fear of being targeted by police or “social” persecuted by “White” Brazilians? Note: Terms of “Black” and “White” are used loosely since obviously Brazil has a large racially/ethnically MIXED population.

4. Despite being of obvious African ancestry, why do many “Black” Brazilians label themselves mulatto, mixed , or anything but “Black”?

5. Does anyone believe that racial attitudes in the United States or the U.S. government has anything to do with “quite” apartheid in Brazil?

6. Does anyone believe that the U.S. government have some connection to the Old military (1960s to 1985) governments in Brazil?

7. Will the new Brazilian President's emphasis on labor movements and fighting poverty really help the huge population of “Black” Brazilians or do you think his initiatives will fail?

8. Does anyone think that Brazil’s “quiet” racial apartheid system has hurt its economic and social development or do you believe the problem was mainly military rule?

9. Does Brazil have any hope of redistributing WEALTH and LAND more equally among its mixed racial population or do you think “White European” Brazilians will continue to disproportionally hold on to land and wealth?

10. Does any anyone believe that the racial situation in Brazil is better than White versus Black relations in the United States?

I know these are a lot of questions, therefore feel free to answer 1 question, a few questions, or even all the questions.

Thank you in advance.




Soe JINN
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11/20/2002
09:10:17
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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I'm NEW to studying about Brazil and Portuguese so I decided to try using MACHINE translation. I know it may "suck" or have native speakers laughing and if so please advise me on better options.

POLÍCIAS, ASSASSINOS MILITARES, & APARTHEID RACIAL QUIETO na lata de BRASIL qualquer um, esperançosamente brasileiro (mas todos é bem-vindo), explanações da oferta e respostas a algum do seguinte:

1. São os relatórios numerosos (o Internet é cheio deles) que as polícias brazilian e os squads militares da morte estão sendo usados ainda matar crianças e alvos políticos verdadeiro?

2. Muitas das crianças que foram matadas por polícias de Brazilian e os squads militares da morte foram do ancestry africano ou da pele escura, por que são esta assim?

3. Os governos suportados militares passados de Brasil impediram que os brasileiros do ancestry africano falem para fora sobre do oppression econômico e educacional blatant? Enegrece brasileiros para ter algum medo da escolha de objectivos por polícias ou social persecuted por Branco Brasileiro? Nota: Os termos de preto e do branco são usados frouxamente desde que obviamente Brasil tem um grande população racial e étnicamente MISTURADA


4. Apesar de ser do ancestry africano óbvio, por que muitos brasileiros pretos etiquetam-se mulatto, misturado, ou qualquer coisa mas preto?

5. Qualquer um acredita que as atitudes raciais nos estados unidos ou no governo de ESTADOS UNIDOS têm qualquer coisa fazer completamente com apartheid em Brasil?

6. Qualquer um acredita que o governo de ESTADOS UNIDOS tem alguma conexão (1960s a 1985) aos governos militares velhos em Brasil?

7. a ênfase brazilian nova do presidente em movimentos labor e pobreza da luta ajudam realmente à população enorme de brasileiros pretos ou você pensa de suas iniciativas falhará?

8. Qualquer um pensa de que o sistema racial quieto do apartheid de Brazil?s feriu seu desenvolvimento econômico e social ou você acredita o problema era principalmente régua militar?

9. Brasil tem alguma esperança de redistributing a RIQUEZA e PARA ATERRAR mais ingualmente entre sua população racial misturada ou você pensa dos brasileiros europeus brancos continuará a prender disproportionally sobre para aterrar e riqueza?

10. Algum qualquer um acredita que a situação racial em Brasil é melhor do que o branco contra relações pretas nos estados unidos? Eu sei que estes são muitos das perguntas, sentem conseqüentemente livres responder a 1 pergunta, a algumas perguntas, ou mesmo a todas as perguntas.

Obrigado adiantado.





Guest


11/20/2002
14:54:45
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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Err... please refrain from posting such translations, I'm quite sure that any brazilian that reads this forum and doesn't know english has acces to such methods. As to your questions I'll try to answer them as I can:

1) I believe not, there was a famous case once, it was called "chacina da candelária", but it is more than 10 years old. All of the involved caught the maximum sentence which is of 35 years in prison.

2) Dunno, I'm not blind enough to say that there is no racism here, but I've seen more social hate than racial hate here.

3) The military government did not allow any kind of public oposition, be it black or white.

4) Because they're of african, portuguese, spanish, native, italian, german, japanese... ancestry, not just "black". I myself am off all but japanese and german ancestry.

5) Direct influence no, but there is some cultural interchange.

6) It is believed that US was money was the main support behind the military government, that is why the public opinion still has some reserve when dealing with US related issues. (It does not prevent us from being good hosts, tourists and immigrants are apreciated).

7) We hope that he helps the poor without favoring any ancestry or origin.

8) The problem is not that simple.

9) So far we've been dealing with this by marriage. ( Don't push to hard with the retorical questions)

That is as far as I can go with my limited knowledge and english, if you see any typo please tell me, there is no other way for me to learn.


BRENT
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11/20/2002
15:08:15
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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Fuck off, Zee. If people want to post translations, they can. You
don't dictate what people can and can't post on the
brazzil.com board. Your just pissed because you don't even
know the definition of "Carioca" even though you're Brazilian.

Here's a translation of Ze's post:

Err... refrain por favor de afixar tais traduções, eu sou
completamente certo que o brasileiro que lê este forum e não
sabe o inglês tem acces a tais métodos. A respeito de suas
perguntas eu tentarei responder-lhes como eu posso:

1) eu acredito não, havia um caso famoso uma vez, foi
chamado do "candelária do da chacina", mas tem mais de 10
anos velho. Toda a involvido travou a sentença máxima que se
realiza de 35 anos na prisão.

2) Dunno, eu não sou cego bastante dizer que não há nenhum
racism aqui, mas eu vi um ódio mais social do que o ódio
racial aqui.

3) o governo militar não permitiu nenhum tipo do oposition
público, seja ele preto ou branco.

4) porque são de africano, portuguese, espanhol, nativo,
italiano, alemão, ancestry do japonês..., não apenas "preto". I
eu mesmo am fora de tudo com exceção do ancestry japonês
e alemão.

5) o no. direto da influência, mas lá é algum intercâmbio
cultural.

6) acredita-se que os E. U. eram dinheiro eram a sustentação
principal atrás do governo militar, aquele são porque a opinião
pública tem ainda alguma reserva quando tratar dos E. U.
relacionou edições. (não impede que nós sejam anfitriões
bons, turistas e os immigrants são apreciated).

7) nós esperamos que ajude aos pobres sem favorecer
nenhuma ancestry ou origem.

8) o problema não é aquele simples.

9) nós temos tratado assim distante do este pela união (não
empurre para duramente com as perguntas retorical) Isso é
tanto quanto eu não posso ir com meu conhecimento limitado
e inglês, se você vir qualquer typo por favor me dizer, lá sou
nenhuma outra maneira para que eu aprenda.


Vargas
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11/20/2002
15:18:29
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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Zee, I don't get your problem. Brent's being kind of harsh or
whatever, but the truth of the matter is that if people want to
post translations, what the hell is the problem? Here's a
translation for you: Você é butthead. And no, I don't care if the
grammar/spelling/whatever is wrong.


mooseboy84
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11/20/2002
16:16:54
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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im not brazilian, but can answer some of these questions.

the reason why you find black people not calling themselves black is because of societal racism and colonialism.
in the usa, when a slave master would rape a black slave and have a light skinned offspring. they would {marginally} be treated better and offten times worked in the house.

often times, light skinned people would propogate with one another and make light skinned children. in an attempt to divide and conquer. there was all this psuedo science about physical characterics intellegence. of course, being blonde and blue eyed means your were could be the smartest on the human side, and if you had dark black skin and nappy hair, you were the closet to apes or beast and not a full human. this was modern science that many of the "founding fathers" and all the intellegencia and academia adhered too. because of this, many light skin black people would say there were anything but black, and the fairset of the black people would try to "pass" or not live the life of a black person. this was most true in the south. because of all the societal racism, many blacks choose to make themselves feel better by saying there not black.or "mixed". you see the same thing in america with black people saying there indian. its true alot of black people are mixed with indian, but if i looked at them you wouldnt exactly see totonka.

i think they do it in brazil the same reason why they do it here, becasue it makes them feel better than the bottom which is where some would wish them to be.




Guest


11/20/2002
17:26:40
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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To SOE JINN:

Maybe I was a bit harsh with my first sentence, so I'll rephrase it to "I kindly ask you to..."

To BRENT:

My PORTUGUESE dictionary is still by my side, have you bought yours? No? Then please drop the subject, I'm offended enough that you where using an english one as your backbone. (just a curious note, I've found an old one here that stated carioca as every inhabitant of the Guanabara state (It ceased to exist when the capital was transfered to Brasilia)).

To VARGAS:

Altough you said that BRENT was harsh, you are rude. Whats the problem? Do you like to read the english that comes from the mechanical translators? I certainly don't like to read the portuguese mechanicaly translated, so I asked for it not to be. I could have been more polite and offered to translate it manualy, but then, a brazilian with no knowledge of english would hardly come to these forums so it would be a waste of time.

To mooseboy84:

There are some similarities, yet some differences between what happened here and what happened in the early USA. I won't dare to tell you them exactly, since they are many, suffice to say that the actual situation is not the same (whereas those of african descendancy are a minority in your country, it is a marjority here).


brazzaboy
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11/21/2002
13:13:28
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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Very eloquently handled Ze. Some of the people who come on here and have to use such ignorant ways are an abomination. Anyhow I think you handled the situation as a gentleman which you cannot say for those other boors.

God Bless Brasil


SOE JINN
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11/21/2002
19:13:15
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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Thanks Ze,

Relates to original Question 9 and Question 3…

. Exactly how powerful are Brazilian landowners and elite and can anyone explain why the Brazilian government has been so ineffective in redistributing land and wealth to other Brazilians?

. What do you think about the concept that the Brazilian elite and landowners are behind the social and racial inequity in Brazil?

. Who were the major supporters of the "old" Brazilian military government?

. Why did the Brazilian military government give up power to civilians and allow for more democracy?

Relates to original Question 6 and Ze answer of it…

. Ze an example of "odd" U.S. policy is the U.S. Army's School of Americas which had trained thousands of military personnel for South America DICTATORS and oppressors of democracy. I stated "odd" U.S. policy because many of these U.S. government operations were carried in SECRET and were supporting non-democratic governments. Osama Bin Laden is another example of how these types of "secret" operations have "back fired" against the U.S.

Translations into Portuguese… I'm not sure what to think of you objections to me using machine translations of English to Portuguese. Could you be more specific about the reasons why you are against it? Just as a personal note… I have begun studying Portuguese.

Thanks mooseboy84,

One thing that I have observed from reading about Brazil is that there is socio-economic oppression and racial oppression. It is obvious that social-economic oppression effects all Brazilians and is connected to Brazil's elite. Racial oppression is different because it is more cleverly hidden in Brazil. ** It is based on the FALSE science of White superiority, which HIDES White privilege, and FORCIBLY CREATES an environment in which one has to be White in order to succeed in society.** Other "tricks" used by White racists is to DENY racism exists, even when it is painfully obvious, or to use charges of "reverse" racism so that they can ACT like the injustices they commit are NATURAL.

It can be argued that Brazil's government, institutions, and rich elite have purposely carried out discriminatory racial policies against "Black" Brazilians in the past, but hide what they have done by equating race mixing with racial equality. The ability and social acceptance for rich or socially "advantaged" "White" Brazilians to marry or have sex with poor or "seeking upward social mobility" "Black" Brazilians or Brazilian Indians does not mean there is no racial discrimination. An example of Brazilian racist thinking is Brazil's immigration policies of the 1800s and early/mid 1900s or read the Brazilian author Oliveira Vianna.







Guest


11/21/2002
20:31:18
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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Well...:

1) Brazilian land holders have some power, but it is clearly less than our capitalists, and it is also localized in the north, norheastern states.

2) I do not think so, since most of these "huge" landowners are of mixed ancestry (some african ancestry in most of them). Altough they do hold some pretty traditional viewpoints.

3) Some conservative media groups, and the TFP (tradition, family, and propriety).

4) Because it was in decadence and the military does not want to be seen as the responsible for the brazilian breakdown, and maybe a few other reasons. At least we are yet to have a huge civil war.

5) Yes, I know, the problem is that we are not very good with foreign secrets.

6) It is because it causes some "horrible" mutations in the language ex:

"Can anyone, hopefully Brazilian (but everybody is welcome), offer explanations and answers to any of the following"

This was your orignal text.

"na lata de BRASIL qualquer um, esperançosamente brasileiro (mas todos é bem-vindo), explanações da oferta e respostas a algum do seguinte"

Now, let me translate for you this horrible abomination

"in Brazil's can (aarghh) anyone, hopefully brazilian (but all is welcome (some horrible concordance errors that so far cannot be transmited)), explanations of offer and answers of following any (gotta love those order invertions)."

Hope you understand now my feelings on this matter.

7) Yes, there is racism in Brazil, but lets add a few facts:

Are we talking about the actual or the old Brazil?
We do have some pretty shamefull episodes in our history, but as any modern country we try to move further, adapt, and correct our mistakes.

There is this problem, if you let white discriminate blacks, it causes hate. If the inverse happens the results are the same, so no type of discrimination should be allowed.

Actually discrimination here is even more cleverly hidden, since there is so much miscigenation, those of african ancestry do not have any more affiliation with blacks, than they have with white. This makes for a very flexible way of accepting blacks into the society, yet not accepting. You can clearly see lots of people with some degree of african ancestry in our elites, but it is rare to see one of pure black descendancy in it.


Who is Oliveira Vianna?


Vargas
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11/22/2002
10:49:59
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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Zee --- All you have to say to Brent is some bullshit about a
dictionary and then you have the tits to say that I'm rude? Fuck
you. Rude is thinking you have the right to tell people what to
post and not post on a site that's not yours.

<<Do you like to read the english that comes from the
mechanical translators?>>

Unlike you, this kind of thing hasn't really been a problem in
my life.

<< I certainly don't like to read the portuguese mechanicaly
translated, so I asked for it not to be.>>

Try not reading it.

Rude. You bet your ass. Only to people who are pretentious
bastards. Go start Zee.com and make a huge Flash intro
decrying the evils of mechanical translation. Or just sit around
and bitch about things over which you have no control, you
bitch you.


Vargas
Guest


11/22/2002
10:50:41
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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Zee --- tudo que você tem que dizer a Brent é algum bullshit
sobre um dicionário e então você tem os melharucos para
dizer que eu sou rude? Vai se foder. Rude está pensando de
você têm a direita dizer a povos que ao borne e não ao borne
em um local que não seja seu. < < faça-o gostam de ler o
inglês que vem dos tradutores mecânicos? > > Ao contrário
de você, este tipo da coisa não foi realmente um problema em
minha vida. < < eu certamente não gosto de ler os
portuguêses traduzidos mechanicaly, assim que eu pedi ele
para não ser. > > Tentativa que não lê o. Rude. Você apostou
seu burro. Somente aos povos que são bastardos
pretentious. Vai o começo Zee.com e faz um intro flash
enorme que decrying os evils da tradução mecânica. Ou
sente-se apenas ao redor e cadela sobre o excesso das
coisas que você não tem nenhum controle, você cadela você.



Vargas
Guest


11/22/2002
10:51:08
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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Zee --- aller, den Sie zu Brent sagen müssen, ist etwas Bullshit
über ein Wörterbuch und dann haben Sie die Tits, zum zu
sagen, daß ich rude bin? Du Arschloch. Rude denkt Sie haben
das Recht, Leuten zu erklären, was zum Pfosten und zum
nicht Pfosten auf einem Aufstellungsort, der nicht Ihre ist. < <
tun Sie Sie mögen Englisch lesen, das kommt von den
mechanischen Übersetzern? > > Anders als Sie ist diese Art
der Sache nicht wirklich ein Problem in meinem Leben
gewesen. < < ich zweifellos mag nicht die mechanicaly
übersetzten Portugiesen lesen, also bat ich um sie nicht zu
sein. > > Versuch, der nicht sie liest. Rude. Sie wetteten Ihren
Esel. Nur zu den Leuten, die pretentious bastard sind. Gehen
Anfang Zee.com und bilden ein sehr großes grelles intro,
welches die Übel der mechanischen Übersetzung herabsetzt.
Oder sitzen Sie einfach herum und Weibchen über Sachen
Over, dem Sie keine Steuerung haben, Sie Weibchen Sie.



Vargas
Guest


11/22/2002
10:51:38
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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Zee --- tout que vous devez dire à Brent est de la connerie au
sujet d'un dictionnaire et alors avez-vous les mésanges pour
dire que je suis grossier? Va te faire foutre. Grossier vous
pense ont le droit de dire aux gens ce qui au poteau et pas au
poteau sur un emplacement qui n'est pas à vous. < <
faites-vous aiment lire l'anglais qui vient des traducteurs
mécaniques? > > À la différence de vous, ce genre de chose
n'a pas vraiment été un problème dans ma vie. < < je
certainement n'aime pas lire les Portugais mechanicaly
traduits, ainsi j'ai demandé lui pour ne pas être. > > Essai ne le
lisant pas. Grossier. Vous avez parié votre âne. Seulement
aux gens qui sont les bâtards pretentious. Disparaissent le
début Zee.com et font un intro instantané énorme décriant les
maux de la traduction mécanique. Ou reposez-vous juste
autour et chienne au sujet de l'excédent de choses que vous
n'avez aucune commande, vous chienne vous.


Zee --- tutto che dobbiate dire a Brent è un certo bullshit circa
un dizionario ed allora avete i tits per dire che sono rude?
Vaffunculo. Rude sta pensandoli hanno la destra dire alla
gente a che cosa all'alberino e non all'alberino su un luogo
che non è i vostri. < < facciali gradiscono leggere l'inglese che
viene dai traduttori meccanici? > > Diverso di voi, questo
genere di cosa realmente non è stato un problema nella mia
vita. < < certamente non gradisco leggere i Portoghesi
mechanicaly tradotti, in modo da ho chiesto esso di non
essere. > > Prova che non lo legge. Rude. Scommettevate il
vostro asino. Soltanto alla gente che è bastardi pretentious.
Va l'inizio Zee.com e fa un intro istantaneo enorme che
denigra le malvagità della traduzione meccanica. O siedasi
appena intorno e femmina circa l'eccedenza di cose non che
controllo, voi femmina voi.




Guest


11/22/2002
13:00:55
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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Nah, I'm not really that good at bitching...

...
...


Vargas
Guest


11/22/2002
13:08:56
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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The evidence says you are.



Guest


11/23/2002
09:48:37
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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... VARGAS...

... drop the subject, it is not worth the time.


Donna Troy
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11/24/2002
08:01:29
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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Brazil has 502 years of history.

During 388 years its economy was dependent of slavery, first native indians, later africans.

There were perhaps about 40% of the population as slaves when they were set free (1888). That is, a huge population without education except that they were third class people, they didn´t have a soul, they didn´t have rights. All they knew was the cruelty of being captives. And the elite believed it was their right to keep things that way.

A few more than a hundred years is not enough to change that culture.



Guest


11/24/2002
16:41:39
RE: Assassins & Racism in Brazil
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What about a few hundred years, and about 100 milion new emmigrants?


Down to earth
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11/27/2002
10:26:06
The blurred question
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Soe Jinn, from what I lived in the short time I spend in Brazil, from the views of my family in Brazil, from what I heard from Brazilians abroad, read and heard from articles/books/newspapers is that racism is a more or less accepted part of the society in Brazil. I’ve read an article once that said that Brazil is one of the few countries where the cries for help against racism do not leave its borders since they do not get any media coverage or any interest from the population.

Brazil has very similar social disparities against people from African/Indian origin as the United States had throughout the sixties and today in quite a few states against blacks and Mexicans. Like for Americans the slave and poverty inferiority complex has dominated Brazilian prejudice for a long time. The fact that Brazil is considered a third world, promiscuous, religiously laid-back country only adds insult to injury to the Brazilian middle class pride. Most “well to do” Brazilians would rather keep very quiet about their Indian or African roots and will prefer to marry their daughters to a wealthy candidate of European (at least in appearance) origin than your hardworking mestico , mulatto or god help them, “black”. The Brazilian government tried to “bleach” the Brazilian race a few times by encouraging European immigration but that still did not stop the new comers from “integrating” and unlike in North America many Brazilian landowners where entitled to marry their slave women and this was quite accepted in society.

Thanks to the relaxed aspect of Brazilian Catholicism and our worldwide known sensuality, the Brazilian people has mixed so much that even the blondest of Brazilians could not swear under oath that they do not possess a drop of Indian, black or Jewish blood in their family tree. This probably explains why Brazilians have given up the “African-American, Irish-American” style of categorisation amongst our people therefore, our racism remains gullible and superficial. We could never allow ourselves to be 100% anti-blacks/Indians/jewish when it comes to “money” or “passion” since for a Brazilian man a beautiful woman is a beautiful woman, a wealthy husband is a wealthy husband, a football player is a god no matter what colour skin he was born in. Mulattas (mulatto women) also have legendary part in Brazilian sexual history and privileged where the powerful Brazilian men who kept a mulatto mistress on the side. Not unlike the French plantation owners who kept quadroom mistresses in New Orleans.

Ze has a point, our racism is mainly social. Brazilians will call nigger the poor land worker living with his family by the dirt track, the “empregada” (servant) working in our chicken or the homeless thief who just took off with our wallet. But we will call Pele our national hero and no blondes will hesitate at throwing themselves at our 2 Ronaldinhos. But most Brazilians will hesitate at calling themselves black or even mulatto, they will describe themselves as being dark haired, brunette, cinnamon coloured etc… But almost never black. And being blond in Brazil is a social advantage, especially for a man as it could mean one step higher in the social ladder if you do not have the right background to do so automatically. And what Brazilians consider “white” is many times far fetched and what you in America would call Hispanic or “black”. Just look at our media how many blacks who are not artists, glamour models or sportsmen do we have in position of power? Talking of apartheid, take Bahia for example, inn the city of Salvador, 80% of the population is black yet you hardly see a black face in the Universities, city council and even the Mayor is white! The blacks are unemployed and excluded from society and if you mention this to a middle class Brazilian they will reply that it is because they “are lazy” and like in America but in a much greater scale, Blacks in Brazill are much more likely to be heavily punished for their crimes or even wrongly accused than non-whites. Have you heard of the Brazilian sayings:

"Eu não sou racista não, tanto que tudo que é neguinha que já trabalhou na minha casa, eu comi."- I’m no racist, there isn’t a little nigger (woman) who’s worked at my house,which I have not eaten (in Brazil “to eat a woman” means having sex with her)

" Branca para casar, mulata para foder, negra para trabalhar.” – The white woman for marrying, the mulatto (woman) for fucking and the black (woman) for working.

Brazil is still at the stage the United States was 30 years ago, we are just starting to reach the state acknowledging “human rights”, equality, anti-sexism and anti-racism. Many Brazilians find these rights pathetic and outrageous but that was also the case in the Deep South, USA. Since we’ve mixed a lot more obviously than Americans, the line between black and white is very blurred. In the States if you’re not white you are black, in Brazil if you’re not rich you’re black.



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