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Lisa
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9/27/2002
21:15:07
Subject: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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I have a friend who confided in me about his sexual experience. He told me his first sexual partner was his Mother, I was in shock. His mom is Brazilian, and my question is....... Is this part of the culture? or is this behavior in any way accepted in the Brailian culture? I want to support him, but this is all so new and strange to me.

His Father was a salesman and traveled alot, It started when he was around 13, and continued till he was about 17. He loves his Mother very much, and yet was sworn to secrecy as a young man. I think this has had a huge affect on how his relationships with women progress, to me it was child abuse, but he loved it, and doesnt think it hurt him at all.

If you have any information about this type of behavior, I would very much appreciate it.......



Donna Troy
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9/28/2002
14:55:33
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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No, it is not accepted here, it does not belong to our culture.

That is considered child abuse by our laws, and surely that boy needs help.


Patinho
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9/28/2002
22:46:26
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Although I am not Brazilian, I have never heard of your freind's situation being "accepted" as part of the Brazilian culture. Cousins, however, as I understand it is a different story.....

Either way... having sex with a child is (or should be) considered abuse in any culture.


Silvio
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 Email

9/30/2002
21:12:48
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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My mom is a MILF and I wish we were in Brasil.


stupid
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10/01/2002
18:45:29
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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stupid question, sorry, but if u knew that brazil is mainly a catholic country u wouldnt have asked. Unless u dont know what a catholic is then ur forgiven!


Shut up
Guest


10/01/2002
21:56:05
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Man what kind of ignorant american are you? Are you so ignorant


Da Silva
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10/02/2002
11:07:25
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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is eating poop accepted where you live? Good lord, you can't be serious with that queston!

Maybe this guy uses that line when he is tired of a girl and wants to scare her off? Take a hint baby, and take a hike!


Brent
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10/02/2002
12:27:26
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Calm down, everyone. Jeez! It sounded like an honest and
serious question.

Just because someone asks you if something deplorable is
accepted in Brazil does NOT mean that person looks down on
Brazil. The hardest thing for Americans to do is to be
inquisitive about other cultures, because people immediately
think you're looking down on them.

If someone from, say, Zimbabwe asked me (in a serious,
honest way) if incest was accepted in the U.S., I wouldn't call
that person stupid or ignorant -- I'd answer the question. Most
Americans don't give a shit about South America or Brazil. Be
glad that this person was at least trying to learn something
about your country, and please don't be so insecure about
yourself or about Brazil.


Patinho
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10/02/2002
16:43:36
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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BRENT,

(if this is the same "Brent" I had the electorial college discussion with)

For once, I agree with you. Lol


Brent
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10/04/2002
06:56:28
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Patinho:

Yep, same Brent. I'm glad we agree on something! :)



Shut up
Guest


10/04/2002
12:01:12
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Think about it, the person asked if incest is allowed in Brazil. It's just another ignorant american who has already looked down on brazil because of their belief that incest may exist there.


BRENT
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10/04/2002
21:55:17
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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>>Message:
Think about it, the person asked if incest is allowed in Brazil. It's just another ignorant american who has already looked down on brazil because of their belief that incest may exist there.<<

"May exist there"? What world do you live in? Incest exists everywhere.

Explain to me, please -- why is it that this person is necessarily "ignorant" because she asked if incest is accepted in Brazil? And why have you surmised that this person is "looking down on Brazil" because she asked if incest is accepted in Brazil?

I've got news for ya, pal. Incest exists in Brazil. Just like it exists in Pittsburgh, Detroit, Santiago, Prague, San Diego, and Glasgow.

The world does not revolve around Brazil, nor does it revolve around America. I would not call you ignorant if you did not know the customs of America. Why are you so self conscious about people who do not know the customs of Brazil?

The fact that you think this person is necessarily "looking down on Brazil" reveals that you are ashamed something. Why are you ashamed?





eurokid
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10/05/2002
17:01:12
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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We not ashamed,just mad :)...hehe. Its not the ignorant part i am mad about, it just seems when you talk to a person who has little knowledge about Brazil the first thing that pops up to their heads is crime and poverty. We may be a developing nation, but that doesnt mean we from the stone age. I dont believe there is a single country which accepts Incest, not even Swaziland. That is why i am always quick to tell them about the great things brazil has to offer which definitely always outweighs the bad things by a mile. Most people I know who go there generally cant wait to go back. I feel obligated to defend Brazil whenever I can, but would you not too defend your country if someone said something bad and it wasnt true! Yes Brazil does have poverty and crime issues. However I do not consider Incest an widespread problem in Brazil and whoever asks if it is accepted I would call him crazy!! Its the same as saying is child molestation accepted where you come from!! Thats why I take it as an insult. Yes she may have a right to ask, but hell I have a right to bitch about it.
Do we have a right to call her ignorant, maybe I dont, but I think a stupid question deserves a stupid answer. If it is calling her ignorant so be it. Maybe next time she´ll think twice, or maybe use www.google.com and research the subject a little before asking a question like that to hot-blooded super sensitive brazilian like myself :)



Shut up
Guest


10/05/2002
20:13:46
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Stick to the point. That person is ignorant and dumb.


BRENT
Guest


10/05/2002
20:26:41
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Eurokid, I will respond to your statements, one by one.

>>>We not ashamed,just mad :)...hehe. Its not the ignorant part i am mad about, it just seems when you talk to a person who has little knowledge about Brazil the first thing that pops up to their heads is crime and poverty.<<<

So what? If "crime and poverty" aren't huge attributes of Brazil, then why does it make you mad that people think they are? It seems that I talk to a lot of non-Americans who, when talking about America, immediately think of us as oppressive, controlling, and bullies. I don't care -- I know what we are, and if people want to think negatively about America, then they are free to do that. I know they are wrong. Likewise, if you know that people are wrong to think of Brazil as a crime- and poverty-infested filth-hole, then why let it bother you? They are wrong. Besides, you're completely missing the point! This post is about incest, NOT crime and poverty. You are the one who started talking about crime and poverty. Why on earth did you bring it up?

>>>We may be a developing nation, but that doesnt mean we from the stone age.<<<

The person who posted never said that Brazil is "from the stone age." Nor is incest an attribute of behavior in the stone age.

>>>I dont believe there is a single country which accepts Incest, not even Swaziland.<<<

What do you mean, "not even Swaziland"? Are you saying Brazil is better than Swaziland? I think the people of Swaziland would be very offended by this remark.

>>>I feel obligated to defend Brazil whenever I can, but would you not too defend your country if someone said something bad and it wasnt true!<<<

I already addressed this question. If someone asked me if incest was accepted in America, I'd answer the question, NOT call that person ignorant. I would then find out why that person would be compelled to ask such a question. Maybe I could learn something. I'd find it interesting that the person was asking. The person who posted this incest question clearly stated WHY she was asking the question -- she had a personal experiece dealing with a Brazilian male who claimed to have had sexual intercourse with his mother, and this Brazilian male said it was a positive experience. Read the original post more carefully, please.

>>>Yes Brazil does have poverty and crime issues.

Why are we talking about poverty and crime again?

>>>However I do not consider Incest an widespread problem in Brazil and whoever asks if it is accepted I would call him crazy!!<<<

Who cares what you would call him? I can call you a satan worshipper, but this doesn't mean you are one.

>>>Its the same as saying is child molestation accepted where you come from!! Thats why I take it as an insult.<<<

I've already addressed this. This person never "said" that child molestation was accepted in Brazil. She ASKED if it was, and she based her question on personal experience: a Brazilian man she had met had FUCKED his own mom. There's a big difference that you are completely missing.

>>>Yes she may have a right to ask, but hell I have a right to bitch about it.<<<

You certainly do have a right to bitch about it.

>>>Do we have a right to call her ignorant,

Yes, anyone here has that right.

>>>maybe I dont, but I think a stupid question deserves a stupid answer.<<<

Well, the answer you gave was certainly stupid, so you accomplished your goal.

>>>If it is calling her ignorant so be it. Maybe next time she´ll think twice, or maybe use www.google.com and research the subject a little before asking a question like that to hot-blooded super sensitive brazilian like myself<<<

What you are saying is preposterous. This person had every right to post this legitimate question. If you are offended by the question, then that's your problem. She does not have to research anything on Google, just as someone who asks a question about the rain forest is welcome to post his or her question on Brazzil.com, not be forced to research it for himself or herself.


Patinho
Guest


10/06/2002
03:55:59
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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The lst time I was in Brazil, I had the opportunity to visit a McDonald's. I tried the "McChedder" for the first time. What a great sandwich! We do not have anything like this in America... a Brazilian freind of mine, upon hearing that Brazil has something that America does not have responded with "Nao tem!?!?!"
Her eyes huge and round, She just could not get over the fact that Brazil had it and America didn't. And it was so common in Brazil.
But according to the people in this forum... my freind is obviously ignorant and stupid because she failed to do accurate research on the consumption of "McChedders" in the United States. Give me a break! No one is attacking the Brazilian culture here. An HONEST question, deserves an HONEST answer.
I love Brazil, and if needs be, I defend her against insults also.... but certain people seem as if they have that "Third World Inferiority Complex" and are wanting to defend her so much that they defend absolutely nothing at all and just make themselves look stupid.
TO WHOMEVER STARTED THIS POST, DON'T WORRY, STUPIDITY AND HOSTILITY ARE ALSO THINGS THAT ARE NOT COMMON AMONG MOST BRAZILIANS, NO MATTER WHAT IT MAY LOOK LIKE HERE IN THIS FORUM.


braslvr
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10/06/2002
08:24:05
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Well said, Patinho.


Alex
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10/08/2002
07:31:57
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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While my expertise is more in politics and finance, I did want
to speak to the statement that Brazil’s Catholic identity
somehow establishes that it has a cultural tradition that does
not embrace incest (Re: "Is incest part of Brazilian culture?"):

The practice of incest was common, sanctioned and even
encouraged in many ancient cultures, as obviously evidenced
in several well-known Greek classics and in Chinese records
of state. In Egypt, Pharaohs often practiced incest to retain
their believed man-God purity; it was believed that marrying or
fornicating outside the bloodline would taint an otherwise
ethereal lineage. In the time following 1385 BCE, after the
Hittite king’s (King Shuppiluliumash I) invasion of Syria, the
practice of incest was formally introduced into Semitic
traditions by the Biblical Joshua, who maintained that the
emerging "Moses Sect" should not marry into other cultures
(then tribes or families) so as to remain a pure race. [Note: It
was not until more than a century later that the practice was
prohibited by the law of Moses (near 1400 BCE). However, the
prohibition was likely motivated more by a desire to further
distance the emerging tradition from its Egyptian roots. The
practice of incest continued.] Centuries later, the social roots
that had taken hold in Semitic cultures survived religious
cultural changes and remained in place during the emergence
of the Christian tradition. Numerous examples of sanctioned
incest can be found in Western European Catholic history
[further supported by G.P. Murdock’s 1949 study "Social
Structure"], extending from France to Italy, Spain and, of
course, Portugal. Interestingly, while the cultural and religious
traditions had changed, the base reasons for sanctioned
incest (purity) remained the same and were thought to be
noble in aim even if they were generally considered morally
reprehensible. As those contributing to this thread no doubt
realize, Brazil’s cultural traditions were substantially
influenced by those aspects of Western European culture in
place during the colonial period. Thus, it is not unreasonable
to assume that Brazil’s cultural tradition may have at one time
included sanctioned incest. Likewise, it is completely
unreasonable to suggest that because Brazil is largely a
Catholic country, that it is thus automatically incest-free.
Lisa’s question was valid. King João I was not a Buddhist.



Alex
Guest


10/08/2002
07:50:29
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Correction: I apologize; the law of Moses was established
near 1200BCE, not 1400BCE as I previously -- and incorrectly --
cited. Obviously a typo of sorts.


Alex
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10/08/2002
07:50:58
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Correction: I apologize; the law of Moses was established
near 1200BCE, not 1400BCE as I previously -- and incorrectly --
cited. Obviously a typo of sorts.


Patinho
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10/08/2002
23:57:36
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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I guess you learn something new everyday. But I am sure she meant "modern day Brazil".

Of course... it's still accepted in Alabama.


Patinho
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10/08/2002
23:59:48
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Alabamians and Tide fans... don't freak out. I am from there originally and that gives me the right to make fun. It was a joke.


Alex
Guest


10/10/2002
08:33:02
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Yes, I, too, am sure that Lisa was asking about "modern day"
Brazil. Perhaps I was not clear: Cultural traditions, no matter
the agreed-upon point of their manifestation on a society's
historical timeline, are relevent throughout the term of that
society's existence. As "modern day" Brazilian culture holds
strongly to ancient traditions, including those of pre-colonial
indigenous cultures, it is not unreasonable to believe that
Brazil would practice, as part of its present society, aspects
of the more-recent European traditions. It is quite likely that
there are people in Brazil today who, not through perversion of
cultural tradition but, by their perspective, by adherence to
cultural tradition, exhibit what they consider to be an
acceptable -- even if they concede that it is somewhat
antiquated -- way of life by practicing incest. The nature of the
perspective might be compared to polygamists in the western
United States. We do not know the background of the man
Lisa met, his place of birth or the familial perspective by which
he was guided. Her question was valid, but unfortunately for
her, the answers she received are incorrect in that they are
unsympathetic and imprecise.


BRENT
Guest


10/10/2002
09:51:55
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Yeah, Alex. So in other words, there are still men in Brazil
today who FUCK their own moms! Incest exists, people. Get
used to it. There's no shame in embracing your culture.


Alex
Guest


10/11/2002
07:14:23
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Brent: Your comments are crude but, unfortunately, not
necessarily inaccurate, as I outlined above. In the future, you
might consider tempering your expressions if you wish to
take such unpopular positions. And, of course, don't forget
that incest is not limited to mother-son relations.




Brazilian
Guest


10/13/2002
16:05:12
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Just because incest occurs in Brazil does NOT mean its excepted!! Your missing the point of the post she asked if incest was excepted in Brzil, not if it happens. Duh! Of course it happens in the world.

And no it is not excepted in BRazil. Please produce some evidence ALEX and BRENT and PATINHO that incest is part of Brazilian culture.


juan
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10/13/2002
19:38:59
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Actually, I have two seperate friends from Brazil that have
dated their cousins. One is currently engaged to his cousin.
Both were second cousins, which is legal in Brazil and most
states of the US as far as I know.

Both of my friends are from major cities in Brazil and are fairly
well educated. Their choice of partners have raised a few
eyebrows, but neither was disowned by their families.

Also, many of my gay Brazilian friends have related stories of
childhood experimentation with brothers and cousins. They
thought it was pretty harmless, and I agree.

Yes, incest does exist in Brazil. As it does in America (just
tune into the Jerry Springer show), Germany, India, Japan, and
every other civilized and uncivilized nation on the planet.

But, the question posed was is it "accepted" in Brazil. The
official answer is no, but it remains a secretive fact of life.


USCIT
Guest


10/14/2002
01:02:32
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Lisa's question as I understand it is actually two fold, with a statement.

#1. Is a boy having sex with his mother accepted in Brazil. Or part of the culture.

#2. She would appreciate information about this type of behavior.

#3. The statement, She wants to support him.

Some years ago I lived with a woman who was a social consoler who upon occasion brought younger people into the house overnight and sometimes ended up serving as a temporary foster mother.

Because of that I have become personally acquainted with at least 30 girls who were raped by their fathers. A dozen or so who were raped by Uncles, brothers or cousins. One boy who had the same situation Lisa mentioned, (only this one reported to the law.) One daughter "attacked' by her mother. Several first cousin to cousin relationships. One of which ended up in marriage (after the parents finally consented to signing the forms). 2 incidents of grandfathers having sex with granddaughters. 1 incident of a grandfather having sex with his grandson. 2 incidents of uncles having sex with nephews. 1 incident of brothers having sex with one another. (Caught at home, turned in for treatment by a shocked parent.) And 3 incidents of brother/sister sex (if I remember correctly.)

Point being, does it happen? It most certainly does. Very often, right here in the U.S. of A.. Is it accepted? No more so than in Brazil or anywhere else in the world to my knowledge. Each of these incidents became a criminal case. (Excepting the cousin to cousin incidents - they were usually handled out of court except in the cases of rape.) The marriage, of course, became legal after the forms were signed.

As to the statement that you want to support him, Lisa, if you still read this forum, be very careful. I do not know of a single one of these people who ever came to have a 'normal' sex life. Not a one.

The girls who were raped fell into two catagories. They were either very promiscuous or unable to have sex at all. The boys were unable to maintain any sort of stable relationship with a girl. The boys who were raped in gay sex nearly all turned out to become gay. Except one. He murdered his attacker. The one girl who was "attacked" by her mother turned out to be very ditzy. (for lack of a better expression) she is also highly promiscuous.

Naturally, I have not followed each of these through their lives since knowing them. But I did take an interest and have heard reference to them from one source or another upon occasion. Some I know fairly well.

Total point. Be helpful, but beware. That is not normal and is not accepted anywhere. But anyone who say's it doesn't happen is a fool.




Alex
Guest


10/15/2002
12:32:59
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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In regard to Juan's assertion that Lisa's question spoke solely
to acceptance: That is incorrect. Her question was twofold
and was as follows: "Is [incest] part of [Brazil's] culture? or is
this behavior in any way accepted in the Brailian culture?"
(It's worth noting that finding Lisa's actual question involved
nothing more than scrolling to the top of the thread.) As we
established above, incest is part of Brazil's culture and is, in
some ways -- in that there are Brazilians currently practing
incest who likely justify their behavior based on the long
history of incest in Brazil and in Brazil's founding cultures --
accepted. In addition, it's worth noting that once again,
USCIT's discussion is intelligent and enjoyable. Points taken.
And of course, to temper the ill-conceived reactions some
seem to be having to this discussion, Brazil is by no means
alone in regard to having a cultural history that includes
incest. As outlined above, it is endemic to most developed --
and developing -- cultures.


BRENT
Guest


10/30/2002
09:25:15
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Bump


Carioca
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10/30/2002
15:13:03
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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As much as I found Patinho's story about "cheedar mcmelt"amusing, I must say that it doesn't apply to our discussion (or at least to what I think is being in discussion).
I'm sorry, talking about a sandwich is not the same as talking about a taboo such as incest.
You seem to be people so interested in and so found of Brazil, it's surprising to me that you can't come up with a nice way to ask something from us. Ok, so incest is not unusual to any culture. I know that in some states of the US it is forbidden to may your couisn, and that it doesn't happen in Brazil. My aunt married her cousin some two years a go, at the church and everything.
But you can't possibly expect that someone would react naturally at a question like that. It may be an honest and simple question, but it is still a taboo, and is offensive thing to ask.
So how can you judge us to be straight forward about our feelings? What else did you expect? We're Brazilians!
I'm sure a question about a sandwich didn't make you as much offended as the incest questin made any of us.
And besides being a taboo, I think it is a controversial issue too. I don't think marrying your cousin is incest. I thought incest was having sex with your father, mother sister or brother. Why should it be forbidden to mary your cousin?



USCIT
Guest


10/30/2002
18:02:35
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Well Carioca, You are very young, and that accounts for much of your response. I'm sure that time will broaden your horizons.

This is an open forum. Discussing incest, as well as about any other topic, isn't targeted to offence. However should you take it as such, perhaps you have personal reasons.

<<But you can't possibly expect that someone would react naturally at a question like that. It may be an honest and simple question, but it is still a taboo, and is offensive thing to ask.
So how can you judge us to be straight forward about our feelings? What else did you expect? We're Brazilians!>>

A couple of factors there. First of all, you yourself state that it 'may be an honest and simple question'. Ok, one learns by asking honest and simple questions.

How can I judge you? I don't 'judge' you at all. I merely observe.

What else do we expect? You're Brazilians.... That is an answer? A solution? What arrogance. Perhaps your own 'trailer park mentality' is showing.

You don't state which cousin your Aunt married. 1st, 2nd or whatever. But that is immaterial. It is done. Sobeit. Many blessings.

Incest however is considered by most scientists to carry out through the 4th level of genetic relation, and several say to the 5th. Therefore, the closest blood relative a person 'should' marry would be a 6th cousin. As the relations draw closer, 4th, 3rd, 2nd and so on to immediate family; Father - daughter, mother - son, brother - sister, the risks of genetic inbreeding increase at a rapid rate.

The problems for the offspring of genetic inbreeding include, mental instability, reduced fertility, increased mortality, and physical deformity.

To check any of my response, go to a good search engine such as google and type the words, in English, such as 'inbreeding' or 'exogamy' or 'incest. I say type it in English, as that is the language with which I made my search. I don't know what results you might get using Portuguese. I do know I found that which I did in about 20 minutes of checking the hits on google for 'inbreeding'.




Patinho
Guest


10/30/2002
19:08:13
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Carioca--

My story about the "Chedder McMelt" did not attempt to respond to the original post on this forum, but rather to the people that were calling her stupid for not knowing about the state of incest in Brazil.

I thought she asked a very straight forward question and even explained why she was asking it. I don't know if it was possible for her to ask more "nicely".

Although it is sad, many Americans know little about AMERICA, much less the cultures of other countries. I am sorry people... I apologize for my fellow countrymen. Most of my freinds think Brazil is close to Africa, that it is a communist country (please no Lula comments, I am tired of them), that people do not even own cars, and that monkeys run wild in the streets.

Once again... I apoligize for them... I was once in thier shoes too. But please do not criticize a person who is at least making an attempt at learning something about this wonderful country. That would only run them away... and leave them with a bad impression.


Pirambuence
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10/30/2002
22:45:21
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Shocking discussion, but I've had my share of shock therapy; so to the point:
Were mama and son having an ongoing affair? Or was it an impulsive event? the lad enjoyed it, so she must have been gentle and understanding.
Reminds me of an old story: A man comes home from work, exhausted and famished. He opens the door to his son's room and is shocked to see his own son porking his grandmother. The father is beyond himself "By god son, you're screwing MY MOTHER!!" the son regains his wits after the interruption ..."Why not? You fuck mine!"

Benjamin Franklin advocated experienced women (in their thirties or so) to have sex with young men being introduced to the arts of lovemaking. I doubt he would go for the incest though. He also failed to mention if older men should introduce young ladies to the same arts.

I met an ex-Peace Corps dude that said he porked a camel in Yemen. Culturally acceptable? I doubt it. Peace Corps accepted?? Gets pretty lonely out in the desert.
Xaozinho


Todd
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10/31/2002
08:04:54
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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This is an interesting thread. Lots of emotions,
understandably so. But before we go any further, I think it's
necessary to actually define the word "incest":

According to Merriam-Webster 3:
Pronunciation: 'in-"sest
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin incestus sexual
impurity, from incestus impure, from in- + castus pure -- more
at CASTE
Date: 13th century
: sexual intercourse between persons so closely related that
they are forbidden by law to marry; also : the statutory crime
of such a relationship

So, at least in English, the definition reveals some interesting
possibilities. If the law decreed that fourth cousins couldn't
marry, then if fourth cousins had sex they'd be committing
incest. If the law decreed that second cousins could marry,
then if a man had sex with his second cousin, it would not be
considered incest. Heck, if the law said you could marry your
sister, then it would NOT be incest if you had sex with her. In
other words, incest depends on the laws of marriage.

I'd be interested to hear someone share a definition of incest
from a Brazilian Portuguese dictionary. Or, does anyone know
the laws of marriage in Brazil (i.e., which relatives you are
allowed to marry)?



Looky
Guest


10/31/2002
08:56:45
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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In http://www.sadireito.com/artigos/civil/incesto.htm, law professor Antônio Carlos de Lima writes in the article "Why incest is not a crime in Brazil?:

"...it's not a crime in our country for a son to have sexual relations with his mother or for a father to have sex with his daughter as long as those involved are adults."

So, there it is from the horse's mouth.


USCIT
Guest


11/01/2002
09:43:35
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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While exploring the laws regarding incest, and since Brazil is predominantly Catholic, some might be interested in seeing what the Catholic law has to say about it. For which go to:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07717a.htm

Wherein it basically states that: "Incest is sexual intercourse between those who are related by blood or marriage. Its specific malice is contracted by such unlawful commerce between those related within the fourth degree of consanguinity or affinity, as computed by canonists."

There are many links within the document to further define words according to Catholic definition, so the site is worth visiting for full disclosure for anyone sincerely curious.

The www.newadvent.org/index/ address is a good site for looking up about any subject addressed by the Catholic Church. It is in English however.




Miss Farzana Khan
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12/12/2002
07:23:43
REAL MOMS REPLIED
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Is it real that a real mom like to have a fuck with her real son then what think a dad or other family member.


AKBAR
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12/12/2002
07:41:32
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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mebbe dad and evryon join in***


Micki Guids
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12/14/2002
18:53:43
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Incest is more common than ANYONE can possibly imagine.

Stop by our homepage for hundreds of "pro-incest" links, letters, on-line games, and enhanced photo-essays.

We also offer a FREE service aimed at getting family members together.

http://siblingspouses.com

Best regards,

Michelle "Micki" Guids
http://siblingspouses.com


Down to Earth
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12/16/2002
09:02:08
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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I read about this American guy who killed gay men and ate them over a period of months. Obviously my reaction was shock. Is this part of the culture in the US? Or was this behaviour in any way accepted in the American culture?


Brent
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12/16/2002
12:32:53
Duh
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Down to Earth, the criminal you're talking about was thrown in
prison and eventually killed in prision for his actions. If you
actually read the post, you'd see that she is saying the person
claimed it was a positive experience, and she mentions
nothing about knowing whether incest is illegal in Brazil.
Murder is, obviously, illegal.

Your analogy, and your attempt at humor, failed miserably.


Down to Earth
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12/18/2002
05:44:18
LOL
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Brent, you are out of context. This “serial killer” also did see his activities as a positive experience and I haven’t mention anything about it being legal/illegal. I don’t understand why you feel the need of telling us that murder is illegal if incest is also.

But if you want to watch “strange” American practices which aren’t officially illegal, watch Jerry Springer and needless to say that, “that” is part of/accepted in the culture.

Your analogy, and your attempt at being “slick”, failed embarrassingly.



Randy
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12/18/2002
06:08:12
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Brent - chill out..I thought D2E's post was humorous as this silly post has been on the board for quite some time. I mean..does anyone really believe that incest is accepted anywhere by ALL the people of that country?

D2E, actually lesbian women are quite the delicacy! :-P They take much better care of their bodies! Silly!!!


Down to Earth
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12/18/2002
06:13:56
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Don’t worry Randy, Brent is just upset about something else and he is trying to get back at me so let him have his say or he will start sulking again. But I don’t get your lesbian thing, do you think that’s all there is to Jerry Springer? But as you mention, there was this thing about 2 sisters and a brother last year…

Shit better get on with my work now!

;o)



Randy
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12/18/2002
15:05:43
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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D2E - no...I was just teasing..you said in your post that the guy was eating gay men...and I joked that eating gay women was better...just a bad joke! Let's stop posting on this one though so it will go away!

Brent...nothing personal against ya! I just thought you were getting to worked up about D2E's post.

Have a great Christmas and Happy New Year everyone! Feliz Natal e Próspero Ano Novo!


Lucas
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12/18/2002
16:51:20
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Não acredito que vocês ainda estão discutindo uma merda dessas..



Down to Earth
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12/19/2002
05:26:23
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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LOL I just got it duuuuuhhhh , poor me! But yes Randy ! It was a bad joke HUMPH!!! LOL No worries mate, let’s have a pint on Brent this Xmas.

Lucas, nao acredito que voce ainda esta lendo esta merda, vc nao tem nada o que fazer?



Bobão
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12/21/2002
04:27:40
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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I am a little surprised that none of the Brazilians who responded commented on the practices of some of the indigenous tribes in the Amazon.

As far as incest is concerned, the following observations have been made:

At the first sign of puberty (menstruation) of a female member of the tribe, a celebration is held in which she engages in sex with all male members of the tribe. Due to early maturation, this may occur as early as 7 or 8 years of age.

Since 'marriage' is not viewed as a monogamistic state, recreational sex outside a woman's immediate living arrangements is commonly accepted. Consequently, paternity must be considered an issue. There is no way (short of DNA testing) to be certain that a girl is or is not having sex with her father, grandfather, brother, uncle, etc.

So is incest accepted? Culturally and socially, within these tribes, yes it is.

Incidentally, this practice spills over the boundaries of Brazil, since some tribes near the border are semi-nomadic and do not have a concept of nationality. So it is not solely within the Brazilan domain.

As an additional sidelight, those of you who support the belief that the indigenous tribes should be allowed to continue to live without contact/interference from the outside world must be, at a minimum, considered to be tacit supporters of incest. This is not a value judgment since many of those same supporters also espouse post-modern relativism beliefs anyway. But just the same, I wonder how may of those same folks would favor the idea of their own pubescent daughter(s) spending time absorbing the local culture with the local tribe? Hypocritical?



USCIT
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12/21/2002
08:02:32
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Interesting post, Bobão. I am in no way countering or questioning the facts as you state them, but am curious, can you name any of the tribes that practice that which you state? The information I have regarding tribal customs generally counters that. Several practice a 'free sex' attitude, but usually only after a girl (or boy) have been married.

I have generally considered the Guiakuru to be one of the most liberal tribes as regards sex. Yet even there the girl protects her 'chastity' with great fervor until after her wedding. Then she is likely to have sex with anyone, anywhere, any time. Including household slaves. Openly, and in the presence of her husband should that happen. The men being the same and even taking it a step further. Many of the men of their history had multiple wives, one or more of which would likely be a cuninho or transvestite. Homosexuality was openly accepted and practiced within the tribe. One of the few cultures in the world to openly practice such. I had felt that being the 'outer limits' of free and open sex.

I am curious as to which tribes practiced forced sex with all male members of a tribe. Kind of a continuity defeating custom it would seem to me. If all male members had sex with a very young girl, it is almost sure that she would become pregnant. And a girl of the ages mentioned being pregnant very high on a statistical list of not being able to survive.

The only tribe I've heretofore known of to practice incest on a regular basis was the Inca of Peru. And that only on the royalty level. Wherein the Inca could only marry his sisters. They being the only ones 'pure' enough to marry the supreme leader.


Down to Earth
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12/21/2002
11:12:35
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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Bobao, sensational “isolated” cases can be found anywhere, but even then, your example seems far-fetched and I would be curious know the source of your findings. I would also like to know which tribe it is where females menstruate so early. These girls would probably be in book of Guinness records since as USCIT they would be very likely to become pregnant.

You also contradict yourself by saying that “There is no way (short of DNA testing) to be certain that a girl is or is not having sex with her father, grandfather, brother, uncle, etc.” and then saying that incest was accepted in these tribes. So there is no proof of incest but even then you seem support (want) the idea that there is.

You have not answered to Lisa’s question. She asked if incest was accepted in “Brazilian” culture, which isn’t. Native American Indian culture is not synonym to Brazilian culture.

Indians customs tend to be survival-orientated, again I agree with USCIT, incest is very unlikely to be practiced since as well as the health and hereditary problems that could occur amongst babies, pregnant pre-pubescent girls very are unlikely to survive in the jungle. These tribes would probably have a high mortality rate amongst children and females since not only there would be a growing problem of inbreeding but children with children who mature too early.


Bobão
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12/26/2002
10:50:37
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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USCIT: The tribe or tribes' practices I referred to were recorded by a medical doctor (a South American, but it has been several years ago so I not certain although but I believe he was Columbian). It would make sense because the tribes were living in an area near the Columbian border. I wish I could name the tribes but I don't believe either was officially recognized by either Brazil or Columbia. He mentioned what he said the called their tribes but the term was a little too abstract for it to stick in my memory.

Let me be more specific regarding the practice. This celebration was only a one-day/one-night affair. Since the girl was menstruating at the time, it would be highly unlikely that she would become pregnant from the experience. Age was open to speculation too since obviously there were no birth certificate. However, he based his estimation of age on dental development, which would be reliable to about one year -- plus or minus.

These tribes, and I recall only about two were mentioned were very small -- between 25 to 35 members. The writer felt that with little or no outside contact, the likelihood that everyone in the tribe was related was almost a certainty though the evidence was admittedly circumstantial (no DNA testing). His view was that in view of their later practices of 'sex outside of marriage', the children had no reliable way of knowing who their biological fathers were. That was how 'incest' entered into the article.

He did not mention birth defects in connection with potential incest but did describe a substantial incidence of clef pallet (two or three instances -- all young boys). A geneticist would be better qualified than I to speculate on that possibility.

Down to earth: I didn't say these 'isolated cases' were confined to Brazil. Just found in Brazil.

The Guinness book (although admittedly not the most current edition) identifies a much younger girl as the "world record" holder, having beat these girls beat by several years and then topping it off with childbirth. So, in that respect, while it may be very rare in industrialized countries, it is not that uncommon with South American indigenous tribes.

The inference was that, without DNA testing, it was virtually impossible to say that they were not engaging in an incestuous act. As such, incest must be considered as an accepted practice since it was not consciously considered by those engaging in the activity.

No you are correct that their practice of incest is not a mainstream Brazilian norm but then I didn't say it was either. The only 'acceptance' is with the government having jurisdiction over the area in which the activity takes place. In that sense, because the activity persisted at the time without government intervention, the Brazilian authorities gave it tacit approval (assuming that they were aware of it). That is as far as I will go in linking the practice to mainstream Brazilian culture. Oh, by the way, do not try to tell a Native American Navajo or Apache that his or her culture is not synonymous with American culture or you'll be quickly branded a racist. They will quickly point out that their culture existed long before Columbus 'discovered' America. The same applies to the indigenous tribes of Brazil.

I have seen too many people contradicting themselves by attributing positive aspects to the overall culture (artisanship) but then conveniently overlooking negative aspects (smoking Peyote). Granted, those are Western value judgments but still, you can't have it both ways.

He didn't mention or I don't recall anything about the average age of motherhood. Likely because the age at which it occurred was simply unremarkable. However, he did mention a very high estimation of infant mortality based on the number of 'skipped' years of offspring from a particular mother childbearing years. Again, obviously circumstantial evidence but a rather compelling conclusion to the question you posed.

His main interest in visiting the tribes had a much more mundane motivation. He was interested in the incidence and progression of a number of common diseases. Contrary to popular belief, they did not have an abundance of natural herbal remedies and consequently suffered long, malingering bouts with what would otherwise be easily treated ailments. Incidentally, he did send for medicine and treated as many as would allow treatment.



Macunaima
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1/02/2003
08:39:57
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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I should mention re: "American" and "Brazilian" cultures (as if such things really existed) and incest, that many Native American peoples within the boundaries of the current U.S. also have historically practiced incest.

Even defining "incest" is a bit of a problem because, of course, not all peoples have the same kinship structures. A linkage that is taboo among one people might not be among others. Appeals to "genetic proof" simply apply a scientific veneer over what is a cultural decision. Yes, we can tell if someone is a biological father or not via genetics. However, the idea that biological and social father are and should be synonymous is a cultural conceit.

Re: "Ignorance" about Brazil... While I don't think people should be jumped upon for asking stupid questions, it seems to me that the OP demonstrates a truly stunning degree of ignorance re: Brazil that could be easily remedied by even the most basic research. A glance in the encyclopedia should certainly show him that Brazil is part of what we vaguely and euphemistically refer to as "the west" and that information alone should be enough to tell him that mother/son incest is as taboo in our society as it is anywhere else.


lappoo
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2/14/2003
00:45:32
RE: Is Incest Accepted in Brazil?
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YEAH IT IS VERY MUCH ACCEPTED IN bRA AS WE LOVE TO FUCK OUR MOMS...


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