Back to our cover

Brazzil Forum [ return ]
FromMessage
Patinho
Guest


12/13/2002
03:26:34
Subject: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
ok... so I am a bit of a WWII buff. I know Brazil served in Italy in WWII, but the most info I have found on it was about a paragraph. Does anyone know any sites where I gan get some good info and pics... see what the uniforms looked like, things like that. Or even a book... would be great. Anything someone would like to add about Brazil's involvement in WWII, even if it's not a link would be cool too. I'm collecting info for that new Tom Hanks/Steven Speilberg series "Grupo do Irmaos."
(lol Get it?! Get it!?... *Sigh*... nevermind)

On a side note. I have an old atlas that refers to Brazil as "The United States of Brazil". I was intrigued, so I searched a little more and found several of the same references, pre-1888. Has anyone else ever heard of the USB?


Student
Guest


12/13/2002
07:21:42
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
The official name of Brazil until the 70s or so was Estados Unidos do Brazil when not Brazil dos Estados Unidos.



Guest


12/13/2002
09:56:59
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
Evil...


Patinho
Guest


12/13/2002
16:24:01
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
and anything on WWII?? I am still searching and all I've found are pictures and info on medals that were given out..... hhmmmm....


Student
Guest


12/13/2002
18:00:29
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
There's more than one homepage about the subject.
This one, for example, seems to be written by a bitter former soldier who glorifies the men in uniform and talks about how badly and disrespectfully the "pracinhas" were treated by Brazil and the rest of the world

http://www.brasil2gm.hpg.ig.com.br/index.htm


Mark
Guest
 Email

12/15/2002
10:49:15
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
Been told by Brazilains...
Brazil did not enter the war until it had a merchant marine ship sunk in 42 or 43 even after evidence was known of the Germans treatment of prisoners specifically persons of the Jewish faith.
The reason for this non-involvement with the allies was the large German population in Br. and the expected loss of income.

Does your interest also involve the propensity of Nazi's to emmigrate to Br. amongst other Latin American countries after the war and receive protection from these Governments from extradition to face justice for their crimes ?
Just Curious.



Fernando B
Guest
 Email

12/21/2002
15:10:25
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
Chech this site

http://www.exercito.gov.br/01Instit/Historia/Artigos/0011005.htm



Patinho
Guest


12/22/2002
00:29:50
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
Thanks Fernando B... I liked that site.


Alain
Guest
 Email

12/23/2002
10:06:36
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
By the way, does anybody know in what year Brazil changed it's name from 'República dos Estados Unidos do Brasil' to 'República Federativa do Brasil'?

It's that I got some old 5 cruzeiros bills that said 'República dos Estados Unidos do Brasil' but they don't have a date on them... I'd like to know what's their minimum age you know...


USCIT
Guest


12/23/2002
22:07:59
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
Patinho,

I have a tendency to go overboard on 'historical' posts, but will try to keep this brief.

First of all, to address Marks statement that Brazil didn't enter the war until 42 or 43 after a merchant ship was sunk.... Brazil declared war on Germany and Italy in August of 1942 after several Brazilian vessels were sunk.

When setting up a time frame, keep in mind, the U.S. didn't declare war on Japan until December 8, 1941 and Germany until December 11, 1941 'after' Germany declared war on the U.S..

So Brazil entering the war in August during that era of communications (the deliberations required and etc.) was not actually much of a time delay.

A side note... When Hitler heard that Brazil had declared war on Germany, he laughed. Stating, "Never! The Brazilians will fight Germany when cobras smoke pipes!" And that was the initiation of the arm patch of a division of the Brazilian expeditionary force showing a snake smoking a pipe. It is said that even today if a Brazilian says something to the effect that the 'snake is about to smoke', a fight is about to start. Credit the origination to Hitler.

About as good a web site for information on Brazil's efforts in the war as I know would be www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/3351/campaigns/brzedit.html

I'd have to check back to see who it was written by, but his reference is a Cesar Campiani Maximiano PHD of history at University Sao Paulo. (et.al.)

Brazil is due much credit and honors for their actions in the war. Faced with grave odds, in one battle in particular, they stood until their last bullet was fired before trying to evade the enemy.

The above mentioned site however will give you much more detailed information. Also, although I no longer have the source site, once upon a time I came across a site with a picture of the locations, naming ships etc., where the Italian subs sunk vessels during the war off the coast of Brazil. I'm sure it could be found again just by typing "italian submarines" world war two - into such as the google search engine.


Fernando B
Guest
 Email

12/24/2002
15:47:19
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
Patinho, I've just remember that General Vernon Walter or Walters was the liaison between US and Brasil at WWII, maybe you can find something about Brasil WWII.

Good Luck!


Patinho
Guest


12/24/2002
21:32:45
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:


USCIT-

I was curious about the snake on the patch. That's pretty cool. I'll have to tell that story again.
On a side note, I find it interesting you mentioned the subs sunk off the coast of Brazil. My best freind, I met her as an exchange student, well, her host family here in the states, her father served in WWII in Brazil. Just last week he was telling me stories about sinking subs off the coast of Rio. Part of one of the stories ended sadly. They were practicing dropping depth charges from planes when a Brazilian officer was killed.... hit in the head with the barrel.

thought you might find that interesting....


USCIT
Guest


12/24/2002
22:12:38
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
That is a tradgedy with the officer being killed during a practice depth charge run. Bad enough when we kill our own people in combat, but in practice, especially so. Due to its vast shore line, Brazil patrolled most of it by air during the war. Depth charge runs a very necessary part of their actions.

One site I went to said there were 32 Brazilian vessels sunk by U-Boats along the Brazilian coast. I had thought 42, but I may be mixing my national registries. I should have stuck that in my data base, but didn't. Also the below.

For the life of me I CANNOT find that map again listing vessels sunk, type class and such. If five years from now you get a message of "Eureka", I'll have found it. I'll be able to stop looking. Do remember why you're suddenly hearing about it. <g>


USCIT
Guest


12/24/2002
22:19:32
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
Patinho,

Was going to tell you but left it out.

The Division that wore the smoking snake patch during the war was the 1st Expeditionary Infantry Division --- 1st DIE --- Divisão de Infantaria Expedicionária -- should it ever matter. Also, feel free to quote. It is well documented. It is mentioned (though not quoted) at the site I listed earlier as well as in other sources.


Patinho
Guest


12/25/2002
20:51:30
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:


USCIT-

Are you asking why I am suddenly hearing about the sunken subs in Brazil?

Well, I have not visited my freinds parents in a very long time, up until last week. Between that time I had begun my interest in WWII and when talking to her father last I said "Hey, didn't you server in the war?" When he told me he was an American soldier stationed in Rio, I asked what could you possibly have to do in Rio? I was completely unaware that the Axis would even attempt something off the coast of Brazil.

So, I guess that brings up a really good question. "What in the world was the goal of the Axis in Brazil? It was obviously not an invasion. Perhaps intelligence or espionage attempts? Any ideas anyone?


USCIT
Guest


12/25/2002
21:49:28
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
No Patinho,

I am commenting on the submarine activity in the waters east of Brazil as combating that was the main war effort of Brazil, other than their efforts in Italy. And, it appeared that you were speaking of an interest in WWII in general (re Brazil) as well as that of their participation in Italy. I mentioned the map as I felt it rather interesting for a general outlook about that activity, though am unable to find it again. Regretable. Every ship that was sunk along the Brazilian coastline (by Italian subs) was pinpointed with information as to ships name, origin, cargo and destination. Some 42 vessels so I thought.

To my knowledge the main interest the Axis powers had in Brazil was the extensive and mostly undefended coastline. (At that time) A good landing point to establish a major base should they decide to come this way. Brazil also had the newly constructed steel plant and other valuable resources should they (the Axis powers) gain a toehold and be able to invade the nation.

I'm sure your friends father would know better than I, but to my knowledge the main job for American soldiers in Brazil then was in training Brazilians to more modern weapons. (Army, Navy, Airforce -- [Army Air Corps]) Brazilians had not fired a shot in anger for quite some years and their weapons were hopelessly outdated for potential combat against a possible invasion and better equipped Axis forces. The bulge of Brazil was considered a definite target for Axis powers by the Allied powers that were at the time. So the perceived goal of the Axis was invasion. They were seeking 'world' domination as I'm sure you know.


Patinho
Guest


12/25/2002
22:11:36
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
USCIT-

I went to the website you recommended, and I believe I found the answer to my question. I still do not believe the purpose was invasion. Who invades a country using submarines?

However, the website talked about the U.S. setting up a supply line from Natal in the Nordeste to Africa. Obviously, the ships that were sunk were (or were thought to be) supply ships ready to go to Africa. In that case I am sure many ships were sunk up and down the coast as suspected supply ships also.

What do you think?

Also.... I was reading too fast earlier and not taking the time mentally to tell the difference between sunken ships and sunken subs.... so that was the reason for the confusion on my part. You were talking about the sunken ships and I was talking about my freinds sunken sub's... go figure.

That website was really cool....


USCIT
Guest


12/25/2002
23:29:53
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
Ok Patinho, All resolved. <g>

I think it is in the study of Vargas where one finds the concern about a potential invasion of Brazil by the Axis. Part of his reasoning (as made public) as to why he sided with the Allies. Several Brazilians opposed that move. But except for that brief blurp, that's another subject altogether.

Yeah, I was talking about ships sunk. And had actually forgotten about the supply line. You're absolutely correct on that. I'm sure you're right also as to why ships were targeted off the Brazilian coast. Empty or laden they would either be on their way to get a load, or taking one over to Africa. Targets in either case.


Sick
Guest


12/26/2002
04:39:55
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
USCIT:
I am not sure if this is what you are looking for, but I stumbled across it.

http://www.subnetitalia.it/regio%20vic%20Brazil.htm

Have you encountered a site that has the picture of the smoking cobra patch? I would love to see it.


Sick
Guest


12/26/2002
05:16:10
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
Oh, one last site I encountered. I am not sure what you have read and not read on this subject and I hope the information isn't redundant. This has much detail not only concerning the events leading up to Brasil's entry into WWII but some of the politics behind it. I cannot vouche for it's veracity but it is worth the read. The footnotes give many leads for other internet searches.

http://www.tau.ac.il/eial/VI_2/mccann.htm

Tchau


Sick
Guest


12/26/2002
07:36:09
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
As you can see, I don't have a whole lot to do today. I think I found the smoking cobra insignia patch worn by FEB soldiers. For those interested, these were displayed on Brasilian stamps honoring their war efforts.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/brazil/brazilstamps.jpg


USCIT
Guest


12/26/2002
09:23:19
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
You found the map Sick. That is the one I was refering to. I couldn't access it direct with the web address given however. (Although correct - for some reason my browser wouldn't make the jump) Anyway, if anyone else wants to go there and just take a look and is having trouble, I opened www.subnetitalia.it/ Clicked on 'Enter'. (Ignoring language) Scrolled down to 'Italian WWII ocean-going' Clicked on that, scrolled down to 'Victories' (left side) Clicked on that scrolled down to 'Brazil Sea' and that opened the map. Of course, that just shows the Italian submarine successes in the area. Now to find one similar that shows German successes. <g>

Also got to the stamp site direct. Picture of smoking snake came up fine.

And, got to the TAU site, and while it was available in both Hebrew and English, when they got to Brazil they switched to Portuguese, with no translation option, which I do not read. Appears to be an extensive site and may well be worth a visit by those who read Portuguese and are interested in the subject. Several volumns.


USCIT
Guest


12/26/2002
09:27:21
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
Hate making this an afterthought Sick, but thank you for looking and posting. I appreciate the info.


Fernando B
Guest
 Email

12/26/2002
14:07:55
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
The snake Is smoking! Do You know the origin of this? In 1943, when the FEB (Força Expedicionária Brasileira) the Brazilian expeditionary force was created, in Brazil a paramilitary and partisan force existed called Integralism, which spread out and perpetuated the nazi idea of life. It was formed in its majority of Germans of the existing south colonies, which planned a secession fight. They had installed here espionage points in some capitals, mainly in Rio de Janeiro, the nation capital at the time and the Military Command headquarters. Many spies had been discovered and imprisoned. But at each arrest, became frequent new integralists declarations like "is more easy a snake to smoke, than the FEB to embark to Italy. The FEB embarked, and the snake smoked! When they saw for the first time this patch, they thought that they were dealing with a special combat unit and respected the combatants who were using it. This is only one of the innumerable versions presented for the origin of a such strange term. However, how can a snake smoke? And is exactly for not fearing the enemy, that it applies so well to those men who had fought in the operations theater in Italy, therefore had surpassed what it seemed to be impossible: the victory! This term means: I will gonna make your life hell!
also check this site: http://www.cfh.ufsc.br/~feb/


Pedro
Guest


1/07/2003
09:19:12
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:

Answering Mark´s post on 12/15/2002:

"Does your interest also involve the propensity of Nazi's to emmigrate to Br. amongst other Latin American countries after the war and receive protection from these Governments from extradition to face justice for their crimes ?"

Why should they expect protection from the brazilian government, if Brazil was the only latin-american coutry to declare war to Germany? Someone who expects protection should go somewhere else, as did Eichmann, who went to Argentina, and in fact, the extradition was denied (the israeli had to kidnap him).

The reason why so many germans (nazi or not) choosed Brazil to emmigrate after WWII was the large german population that already existed in southern Brazil since XIX century, where they could meet friends and relatives. Many children were orphans, and were sent to Brazil to be raised by their uncles or grandparents.



Anonymous
Guest


1/07/2003
09:53:22
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
In Rio de Janeiro, behind Cinelandia (I am not sure of the name of the street), is a small Military museum detailing the exploits of Brasilian troops in WWII.

Fort Copacabana also has some excellent exhibits of Brasilian military history
Johnzinho



Fernando B
Guest
 Email

1/08/2003
13:26:19
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
This street is called Rua das Marrecas and the museum is the FEB museum.


Rene Hass
Guest


1/08/2003
20:55:35
RE: Brazil in WWII
IP: Logged

Message:
If I am not mistaken, 1967 was the year when Brazil's official name was changed from "República dos Estados Unidos do Brasil" into "República Federativa do Brasil". That is, two years after the military took over. In 1967, the military promulgated a new constitution and one of the changes was in the official name of the country.

Thanks,

Rene


P 1

Back to our cover