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Vargas
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12/13/2002
13:11:47
Subject: What should we do in Brazil?
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Yup, I'm asking for advice. My friend Brent and I have had
some big discussions on what we're going to do during our
upcoming trip to Brazil, but we'd like advice from locals on the
best red-light districts, clubs, parties, underground
favela-fests, whatever, where we can get messed up and
crazy without coming home with a tropical disease. Money is
no object. If it's some local club, please provide as much detail
as possible -- and anecdotes, if you have 'em. Thanks much.


Patinho
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12/13/2002
19:47:32
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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While most of your plans sound geared toward the south, everyone knows I am partial to the Nordeste. And God knows we could use the tourist dollars.

Be sure to check out the Rain Forest. No tour of Brazil would be complete without a trip to Manaus or the surrounding areas.

One my favorite places is Parnaiba in Piaui, on the nothern coast. There are also several other small town beach communities to visit in the Nordeste.

The most notable, and unknown is Jericoacoara, CE. This is a little known "resort". It has the most beautiful landscape I have ever seen, and because it is so difficult to get to, there aren't many tourists... albeit, the only ones you will meet are the adventuresome, that tend to only contribute to the atmosphere, rather than pollute it. There are a few web-sites about this place, check it out. Also, it is considered to be one of the top 10 best beaches in the world. Brooke Burke w/ Wild On E! did a special about it.

The Nordeste is an area that doesn't get too many gringos. I have been there 3 times, and each trip only gets better. With the lack of tourists, we are usually greeted with open arms and a little amusement. If you like attention, and I know you do, this might be the perfect place to spend some time and money.

Either way... good luck.


Lucas
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12/14/2002
12:54:26
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Favela-fests? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Quero só ver se vocês vão sair vivos daqui.



EVELINE
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12/15/2002
05:23:27
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Hi Brent and friend!!!

Don't be afraid, is more easy to die in Afeganistan than in Brasil!!

We like to have visitors and you will know a lot of great peoples.. (sorry, my English is very bad)

I'm writing from São Paulo and here have many things to do, like cultural expositions and a lot of music.

I'm going today to a Exposition at MAM (museu de arte moderna - Modern Art Museum)
Me and my friend will see the work of TARSILA DO AMARAL and DI CAVALCANTI,a very important painters here in Brasil.

Welcome and take a good vacation!


Eveline


Carlos
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12/15/2002
08:50:27
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Brasileros did you not understand what these gringos want? They want our mothers, sisters,daughters and wives to know intimately. Can we not welcome them with open arms?
Si Senhor, minha irma gosta gringos!!!

Malucos, if you plan on this adventure here are my tips:
1. avoid the crooked police by any and all means.
2. bring rubbers made in the first world or wear Brazilian rubbers at a time after you have blown them up and held air pressure for 10 minutes.
3.Carry US made cellophane for the ugly whores and tin foil for the good looking ones, there are many, bring many rolls (from the USA only).
4. Buy nothing you expect quality from with the label "made in Brasil" equal to "made in China".
5. Never express an anit Brazilain sentiment first, if they do, and they do often you may agree timidly, never resort to your American attitude of free specch.
6. Never carry anything on you that you will miss when it gets stolen.
7. Never expect a Brazilan to fight equal to the level of importance of the problem, they will almost invaribly attack you\ your friends\ family later with a uncalled for level of violence behind a weopen.
8. Many whores have a bad attitude (you owe them , bastardo gringo)be specific about the entire transaction before hand, what you expect and for how much. Never pay up front, show them the money and leave all your valuables with hotel security.
9. Your best bet is to hire a whore that you are interested in renting for many days, pay her R$75.00 per day (24 hours), keep her for 1 week or more, pay her 50% of her salary daily and the balance at the end of each week.
10. Your whore will invaribly lie to you regarding her life, feel no shame in lying to her. Tell her that you are looking for a Br. girffriend. She will think she can add you to the list of the current 4 gringos already sending her money professing their loive for her while she fucks eveything in sight.
Good luck and return disease free.


Down to Earth
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12/16/2002
08:45:17
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Geeee Carlos’s seems to have been around. Take on the advice boys!

Wonder if he’s managed to stay disease free thought…



Tuxedo
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12/18/2002
14:07:11
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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VARGAS--are you going to Recife? If so I have some
information. In Recife you have the choice between 3
possibilities for ladies.

1 - "as mulheres de program" - the "program girls"
2 - the brothels
3 - the streets

The "mulheres de program" usually act in public places, like
restaurants or bars and are quite easy to spot, because they
are usually more attractive-dressed as the "honest" women
(+ make up). Generally quite young (under 18 is frequent), they
look for your eye contact, especially if you are dressed like a
gringo. How old you are doesn't have any importance. You
discuss with her, first from a table to another. Then she will
come at your table, to drink something, or with her own drink.
You'll discuss about any subject, with a preference for "how
nice Brazil is" or you can talk of your own country.

After a few minutes, she will come nearer, but they know
exactly when to talk about money. Sometimes she won't talk
about it at all. All you have to do if you want to go to bed with
her is to propose to go to a "good motel". She knows every
one of them (the better are usually outside the town). The
motel will be charged by hour, cheap indeed (between US$ 15
and US$ 50 per hour).

The girl will take off her dress, and you go together in the
shower. She can wash you, it depends. When you seem clean
enough go to bed.

The girl will touch you, suck you (without condom if you don't
ask to put one), and you can fuck her as you like, in as many
positions you want. She will wear your buddy with a condom
before to fuck. Take your time, as there is no question of time
with her : she is not a "whore", what she would like is stay the
night with you. Who knows where she stays at home ? A wood
house with 12 brothers and sisters will be the most frequent
reality.

When finished (you can come in her mouth if you want to), if
you don't want to stay with her, no problem. If you want, it
would be a better idea to take her in your hotel room. But take
care of your valuables!

Best places to find mulheres de program in Recife : the go-go
bars at Praca de Boa Viagem, near the long beach of "Boa
Viagem". Very easy to find, the largest one counts more than
50 girls every night from 10 pm.By day, go to the beach Boa
Viagem near the same Market Praca, you'll see some 50 year
old europeans discussing with girls. Just rent a chair, ask a
beer from the garcon and look around.

Try also the very pleasant bar called Cravo e Canela, rua dos
creoulas, downtown.

Prices : US$50-100 for a night is frequent (if you
speakportugese). If you seem really to "gringo", you'll pay 100
$ for a 1hour program. But it is very usual to stay with her all
night long in your hotel. Put all your valuables in a safe.

2 - In the streets : as everyone told me it is really very
dangerous, I never did it. Good luck.
3 - The brothels. Try the "Twenty Club", rua Luiz de Farias
Barbosa, 20 (Boa Viagem). It is a very fine mansion with a
swimming pool. You can go every time between 4:00 pm and
4:00 am. The girls are the nicest I ever saw in Brazil ! When
you enter (come with a taxi, it is easier), the Mama-San gives
you the prices. It was 160 reais in last may 95, say US$ 180.
You will pay her directly when you leave, like you would in
good restaurants. Better to pay cash, to avoid the extra-costs
for credit card, very high in Brazil. The drinks are cheap. For
the money, you can pick up any girl you want. The best to do is
to drink something with her, and to discuss ("batter papo") a
little. Many of them speak english or german.

When you want, you just say "vamos ?" , she takes a key for a
room, and you go upstairs. Video, round bed, air-conditioning,
etc. I have had good fuckin' programs with very nice girls. If
you arrive at 7:00 pm, I think you'll find the most girls, between
15 and 20, sometimes more. If you come very late, say 2:00
am, only 4 or 5 are there.

The sex itself takes 1 hour for US$150. Don't stay longer if you
are not part of Rockfeller family. If you like the girl, you can
ask her how to see her outside. But she rarely says OK after a
single experience.You can find the same way, but cheapest
(and with less beautiful girls) at the "Scandinavian", in Boa
Viagem (every taxi driver knws). 90 US$ for one hour, cheap
drinks, bad food.There is a more popular brothel downtown,
near the port. Prices US$50 for foreigners, but quality and
mood are not that pleasant. And the place could be
dangerous if you are not accustomed to the brazilian way
of life.

Have fun!




Vargas
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12/18/2002
14:15:25
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Tuxedo -- WOW, thanks for the info! That's the most detailed
bit of sex research I've ever seen. I'm a little concerned by the
prices you're mentioning... They seem like Western prices...?
Is it because of the gringo thing? I guess it is a lot cheaper
than here, especially for the all-night thing, but it still seems
pricey. I was hoping for some cheap, cheap flings. Then again,
whatever. It's still cheaper than home and the girls are hotties!
Man, are you in Brazil? It sounds like you'd be a good cat to
hang with. Let me know if you're available as a tour guide or
something. Also, what's the deal with police/prostitution?
Thanks.


Jennifer
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12/18/2002
17:12:47
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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I am sad. Really really sad that you men in the entrys above are from my country and you are taking your selfishness and your lack of respect or caring for other people to a country where you can more easily (and cheaply) exploit people who weren't born into the same financial circumstances which you apparently were.
Do you ever stop to think that these women do what they do because they feel they have no other hope or because they have no self-respect because they have been made to feel that is all they can do in life or have to offer? And each time you get satisfied, they lose a little more of their hope and their self-respect and a little more of their soul dies. So in essence, you are murderers. You ,and those like you, are slowly killing poverty stricken, immature, and hopeless women.
Would you want someone treating your sister or mother or some woman you may actually have some type of feelings for like that?
And where have you lost your soul and any ability to feel as a human? Why has sex become for you only a sport or momentary pleasure? Why are you unable to write about sex as the ultimate creative expression of commitment, feeling, and bonding with another person with whom you can share the good and bad of life? Have you had bad experiences with women and seek to punish everyone because you feel you were deprived of what sex should and is suppose to be? Is it that YOU hurt that much and so you take revenge by killing the symbol of your hurt? Why don't you just shoot her, the killing would be more merciful--or do you get off in slow torture--- because that is what you are doing---slow mental/emotional torture.
And ugly ugly americans! Going to another country to spread your arrogrance, selfishness and emotional greed. Is it any wonder that 9/11 happened? Does it feel good to know you deserve to wear that blood? You are part of the cause. You are who turns people around the world against the USA. The hated stereotype of the rich explotive gringo. Where do you think that comes from? Are you proud to be the creator of that? I lose respect for my own country because there are people like you in it.
Who and what do you see when you look in the mirror? No, it isn't handsome. You should be ashamed!!




Patinho
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12/20/2002
01:28:14
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Jen-

I can't say I agree with the whole prostitute thing either. I prefer the natural way of meeting women....

But,on the other hand... "when in Rome..."


Down to Earth
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12/20/2002
10:42:39
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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If prostitution would be legal and organised everywhere in the world, these women would be protected, age and prices would be controlled and people would have to think twice before they take a trip abroad believing that they can get away with stuff they wouldn’t in their homeland.



Guest


12/20/2002
11:00:47
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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When in Rome your #####, we have as much prostitution as you have in your homeland, so don't get smart. I do not expect this "horny teenager talk" from you.


Jennifer
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12/20/2002
14:38:11
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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It seems all of you have missed the point. Or is it that all of you have so lost your own souls in the inability to care and feel for the plights of others and to recognize them as feeling, living people that you don't know or care what it is to destroy another's soul? Each of you, in your own way, has just aquiscesed to a form of taking part in the slow murder of an individual. My point is proved. You all wear the blood of what your selfishness causes directly and in the long range consequences that spill out onto sometimes innocent others through your attitudes and acts over time.
The next time someone's selfishness takes away and destroys part of you, know only that you have no cause to feel anger, you have only reaped what you so casually chose to sow.
And, Down to Earth, I suppose this will be just fine with you as long as whoever does it to you does it legally. Or spend a night working in a brothel and report back to us how you feel the next day. After all, why wouldn't you want something done to you which you think is acceptable when done to someone else?


Patinho
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12/20/2002
17:35:53
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Ze-

The area where I live, I have never seen or even met a woman that was a prostitute. I would not even know where to go to find one, if I wanted one.
Yes, there is alot of prostitution in the States, but it is not so common in the Central and Mid-West parts as it is elseware.
I don't know many "facts" to compare either country's prostitution rate. All I know is what I see.
America, I never met one.
Brazil, I saw them all the time.

Also look at my perspective, America is my country and a place that I am very familiar with. For me to not see alot of prostitution says something.
And in Brazil, I am a visitor. Many times not even sure what is going on. So I am often NOT familiar with things there. And for me to come into contact with prostitution says something more, since it was more "accidental".

And the "when is Rome" phrase applies to everything, whether it be food, drinking, whatever...



Guest


12/20/2002
21:24:58
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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When you walk on a touristic trap you expect to see prostitutes, thats granted. I wouldn't know where to find one in central Brazil, or even on the "Serra do Mar".

Your quote does not seem to relate to such subjects.


USCIT
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12/20/2002
23:02:53
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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In the area where I live in the Northwestern U.S. the police make what might be called a semi-annual roundup of prostitues. I say 'might' as it isn't timed exactly so people know just when there will be a roundup.

At that time all known hookers are taken to jail, given a fine and told to get out of town. Second bust is jail time plus an accelerated fine. Third bust is a lot of jail time plus a very expensive fine.

If a case can be proven against pimps, (when involved) they too are jailed and fined. And if drugs can be found during the bust, the police have a very delightful time.

There are also a couple of police women out on the streets dressed as hookers as the roundup is coming down. When solicited they bust the guy, give him a stiff fine and publish his name in the local paper. It has caused considerable amusement in a few incidents where the name was rather 'prominent'.

Our community is fairly small and quaint. We have but a couple of streets where the 'art' is practiced. When one sees a girl dressed in revealing clothing and heavily made up, most likely they are one of three things. A hooker, a police woman, or a transgender looking for action. I guess one has to go up and ask to find out. I usually wait until the paper comes out. <g> (Very few who are not one of the above dress like that in this area.)

We have prostitution, but not very much of it, and not for long at any given time.

Just an example of how one part of the U.S. deals with prostitution now.

At the same time, I have a friend who was once a notorious madam in this area for several years. Known for hundreds of miles around. She is a lady. She took up the profession by choice. A business decision, and was rather successful at it. She is now retired. At a rather early age. But she saw the trend of society and got out while the getting was good. She's a very nice person however, always helping others, and a fun gal to know. (No, I have never had sex with her, to do so would turn a friendship into a business relationship.)

At one time, just a few years back, while prostitution was technically illegal, it was not considered a punishable crime. The changes of time and clime.



Guest


12/21/2002
02:43:27
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Let me get this point straight then:
Copacabana does not protrait brazilian reality.
It does not even portrait Rio de Janeiro's reality. (It is decadent by the standards of the southern region of the city, and slightly richer than the standards of the metropolitan area)

On the other hand I'll confess that we do not have the resources to punish prostitution.


Patinho
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12/21/2002
08:10:10
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Never been to Rio... heard it's a "tourist trap". Ze, I tend to stay off the tourist roads as much as I can... just so you know. So that would not be the reason I came into contact with prostitution. Hell, it's a rare site to even catch me with a camera... a la.. the typical tourist...


Down to Earth
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12/21/2002
10:48:59
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Jennifer, you speak as if you had been thought it yourself. In that case I can’t argue because it looks like you’ve had a hard time and obviously know things that I don't.

Otherwise,in a country like Brazil the problem with prostitution is one of the last priorities since we have so many other problems to resolve. Prostitution is as bas and unfair as it is there because people have no choice, no protection and virtually no law. If we could at least solve the problem with making sure that they get preservatives and make sure they are not children. But even then we have long way to go.

In places like North America, unless you are an illegal immigrant or have a very heavy drug problem or a victim of abuse, in most in cases I cannot believe that one is forced into prostitution. Actually take California for example, many escorts live a rich life style and choose prostitution as means of obtaining a lot of cash fast. You talk as if these women have been “raped” or something, you seem to forget that they are getting money for the service they are offering. It is a hypocrite puritan arrogance of the law to try to stop people from choosing to do what he/she wants whit his/her own body?

I stand by my point, if prostitution would be legal things wouldn’t be “great” but they would be much better than they are now, problems such as “drug use, underage prostitution, abuse by pimps” would be much more likely to be controlled.

I mean what is your solution then? Do you seriously believe that the world’s oldest profession could end? As I said, there are much more important things that police could do other than stopping and humiliating a frustrated husband or wife from paying a woman or man for sex.










Guest


12/21/2002
11:00:11
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Not having a camera on hand does not make one avoid tourist traps. ... and Rio is far to big a city to be a tourist trap itself, the only trap here is Copacabana.


MONICA
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12/21/2002
12:41:46
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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BOTH THE IPANEMA AND THE LEBLON TOO ARE TOURIST TRAPS ALSO. YOU WOULD KNOW IF YOU LIVED IN RIO DE JANEIRO.


Jennifer
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12/21/2002
15:29:34
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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I find it interesting that Down to Earth thinks I've been a prostitute to write what I do. Sorry, wrong. But I am someone who has seen the devastation of poverty that about 2/3 of Brazil lives in. I have seen the desperation of women who are alone or the daughters in families where there is not enough food to go on the table. These women have no job skills and not all of them can get employed as household help--think about it , 1/3 of homes do not need 2/3 of the population working in them. So they think they have nothing to give but their bodies. Or they are told that by parents who often set up their first appointments.
Substance abuse is the bandaid to hide the pain. If they are numb, they can forget how awful the reality is and how bad they feel inside.
They go to the tourist traps because that's where they can get money to pay the rent, buy food, feed their babies. That is where the insensitive, selfish, explotive men who feel they can flash money and buy pleasure at the expense of others go. So the two meet. Yes, that woman will feed herself, diaper her babies, etc, but one more piece of her soul is gone. She feels like dirt. She is treated like an object. And each time she is discarded like trash.
No, Down to Earth, prostitution isn't one of your biggest problems. In fact, its not a problem, it is a consequence. It is the consequence of people's selfishness. You have an elite that prostitutes itself for free and has attitudes like yours towards suffering human beings. I don't doubt your post about how to treat servants was for real and that you treat others like that. I have sat in the Rio Yacht Club and had dinner with too many people of your mindset. If others suffer, too bad. Just as long as it doesn't take anything away from you.
I don't stay in Zona Sul when I am in Rio. It breaks my heart what goes on there. But I talk to the camelos, the prostitutes,and the other people who know how to work the tourists because they are the Brazilians who matter to me--the ones who, if given some chances and not surpressed by an elite who is motivated by not compromising their lifestyle and losing their cheap labor force, would turn into what americans use to be--people who worked hard and loved God and their neighbor. People who put others before themselves. People who strove for what would be best in the long term for all people--not what instantly gratifies oneself.
If you want to call me a puritan, go ahead. I am proud that I have standards to live by. I am glad if I can give one woman who thinks she has nothing to offer but her body some resources to take her out of her hopeless mindset. I am happy to buy her baby's diapers and a meal for the day, rather than to see someone else pay 100 times that much to take her soul and tell her she is dirt.
It is interesting that Down to Earth thinks I must have "been there" to identify. Anyone can identify if they start thinking of others as more important than themselves and think what it would be like to to be in their shoes. All I hear in this forum are the voices of people who identify only with themselves. Selfish, arrogant. They look the other way to people's pain, people's "problems".
I don't buy into the proposition that what ever is good for me goes as long as other people do it (When in Rome..). You can't think or make moral choices for yourself? But then, you have never held people's hands as they died. You have never held their dead babies. You have never asked a prostitute why she does what she does or known her life circumstances.
The stories are a little different in North America. We don't have the same demons Brazil does. But talk to those prostitutes too. They are more likely to do what they do strictly for money, but ask their whole life story. What started them on that road was a life event(s) which told them they were dirt. So they gave into it because they felt they had no way out. Soon the money became a rationalization. Then it became a purpose. And then it became ok. It was their destiny. Some are better lying to themselves about it than others. The ones who are the best at the "cover-up" lost the most of their souls--piece by piece.
I can't save the prostitutes. I can do things to keep them off the street for an hour, a day. I can give them resources, but many are so distroyed, they don't believe they are worthy of help or have the strenght to start a new way of life because they have become so stripped of personhood inside.
But you can say "no, this isn't something I am willing to do--take part of another's soul"--if you are a man. And if you are a woman, you can start with an attitude of "But there for the grace of God am I". You can start to think with attitudes which are other oriented instead of self-oriented.You can start to think of another's welfare over your own pleasure. Or, are all of you so far gone in selfishness and smugness in the elitism of your own life's circumstances that this is impossible for you? So far, I have not heard anything to the contrary.
And thus you are all prostitutes yourselves--to pleasure, to money, to power over unfortunates. You have sold out the part of yourself that makes one human--the ability to care about someone besides yourself.




Guest


12/21/2002
22:52:51
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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To Mônica:

I live in Leblon and call it a beautifull place, not a trap.




Patinho
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12/22/2002
00:14:59
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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okay folks... when I said "tourist trap" I was infact being a smart-ass....(this time).

Ze-

You're slowly getting off the subject... I said what I did about being a tourist simply to show you that, I am not the typical tourist, and do not travel the routes of those typical ones, I tried to emphasize again that my contact with prostitution has nothing to do with tourism, as you suggested.

(not meaning to be puglistic here)



Guest


12/22/2002
07:30:58
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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It is my personal experience to only find prostitutes in decadent tourist traps. Maybe you judge places diferently, have a diferent perception, etc...

* By the way, Jericoara is far from being an unknown place.


Patinho
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12/22/2002
14:24:07
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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You're the first person I've talked to that aknowledges it's existance.... Jericoacoara.
Of course some people must know about it, otherwise I would not have wanted to go there, as well as the people I met when I was there....

Has anyone else ever heard about this place? Just curious....


USCIT
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12/22/2002
16:14:03
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Just heard of it is about all. A small fishing village cum tourist area (recently) Supposed to be in an area of great beauty. Beaches and the like. Difficult access. Situated not far North of Fortaleza. 200 miles? Name means Turtle egg holes or sleeping alligator, depending upon who is defining. Tupi word I believe.


braslvr
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12/22/2002
16:20:55
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Of course I read about Jericoacoara long ago while reading every possible internet site about the Nordeste.

Interestingly, It will also pop up many times in articles about "the ten best beaches in the world" etc. I've seen it rated as high as #6.

Avid beach/ocean fan,
braslvr


Randy Paul
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12/22/2002
20:34:37
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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The E! Television Channel as well as the Travel Channel profiled Jericoacoara.


Dempsey
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12/26/2002
12:02:04
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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When I was in Rio de Janeiro, I was in Leblon and Ipanema, and they didn't seem like tourist traps at all. (Even though I was a tourist!) I guess it depends how you define "tourist trap."


Pedro
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12/27/2002
13:18:02
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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What an absurd!

Mr. Patinho, let me know, are you stupid or a liar?

One post, you say that you have been 3 times to Nordeste and recommend Jericoara.

Another post, you cynnically say that "I am not the typical tourist, and do not travel the routes of those typical ones, I tried to emphasize again that my contact with prostitution has nothing to do with tourism"

EVERYBODY KNOWS that Nordeste, mainly Recife and the region of FORTALEZA and JERICOARA is infested with prostitutes because it is a place of sexual tourism! Do you really believe that the prostitutes you met everywhere was just "accidental"? Oh, come on!

You lack "facts" about prostitution in Brazil. Well, I´ll provide them:

Going with prostitutes was a custom of our parents and grandparents. The current generation (after the sixties) usually starts the sexual life with their girlfriends at an age of 16, 17 (like I did myself). Quite a few of the guys I know has ever been with a prostitute. I have never. There are considerably less prostitutes in Brazil nowadays than there were 30, 40 years ago. Traditional red-light districts in Rio (where I live) like Lapa and Mangue have been destroyed or became absolutely decadent. The new "prostitution district" is now Copacabana beach, and it is more directed to foreign tourists than to locals.

When in Rome, do as romans? Then GET A GIRLFRIEND AND RESPECT HER. That´s what we, "the romans", do. At least, that´s how I and the guys I know have acted until now. But apparently, american women do not have a good image of you, mr. Patinho. I do not have, either.



Patinho
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12/27/2002
17:14:26
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Pedro-

So my only choice are "stupid or a liar". Well, you are not leaving me much room to breathe, and I if I can only pick one, I would have to go with option B. I prefer to be a liar than stupid. You, as we can see, chose option A.

Also, let's keep in mind that a forum is a place to express opinions, among other things, and that was exactly what I was doing. Expressing my opinion.

I was completely unaware that the Nordeste has such a higher concentration of prostitution than other areas, I suppose I am more educated now.
Yes, I have visited Jeri and Fortaleza, but I have never met any prostitutes in those areas. I'm am sure there are some, but since I wasn't looking for them, perhaps this is why I didn't notice. I spend 80% of my time in Teresina, PI. Now, perhaps your information differs from mine, but I never considered Teresina to be a big tourist attraction. This is where I came into contact with prostitution in Brazil. If your connection between prostitution and tourism are correct, then I need to call my freind who lives there and tell her she is either "stupid or a liar" for being unaware of the many tourists drawn to her city for the prostitution.

Like you, I have never felt the need to call upon a prostitute's services. Back to the "when in Rome" comment. The few times I have come into contact with prostitution were because I happen to be standing somewhere and a freind says "That's a house for prostitutes" or "that's girl is a well known prostitute." So my reason for comparison is the fact that I have never just been standing somewhere in America and have someone point out an area of prostitution to me. So, I retiterate my statement that "my contact with prostitution had nothing to do with tourism."
How can you be so naive to suggest that the reason for prostitution is mainly for tourists? I am sure it is very popular with them, seeing as once again, it is less popular or less accessable in America, but I am certain it is not the sole reason.

It must be said that I have no problem "getting a girlfreind" either here or in Brazil and I find the fact that you said that only shows how childish you are. You don't even know me, and yet you attempt to judge me be a few lines written on a forum. Maybe you are the one who needs to get your facts straight.
I do not know why you responded to me the way you did. Perhaps you have some serious unresolved issues and you are just looking to lash at at anyone and I was just the lucky person. I certainly hope you look for counseling or therapy. Remember, psychiatrist, not a psychologist, because you are going to need some drugs.
I usually never respond to anyone this way, but when I come into contact with someone that obviously does not have the mental capacity to communicate with another person, that has in no way insulted you personally, without attacking them for thier opinions, I feel I have the responsibilty to warn others of the pending stupidity and ignorance they may come into contact with if one were to speak with you. So, please, if you cannot keep your big mouth shut and feel obligated to respond to anything else that I post, please try to do it without showing how much ignorance you possess.

I realize that a person is taking a chance whenever posting their thoughts on a forum for all the world to see, that often people will have differing views and some will pick it apart like vultures. I have no problem listening to people that disagree with my opinions, as long as it is written in an intelligent manner. I am not here to impress anyone, or to be liked by you. I come here to learn and exchange ideas.

All said and done, I understand the "idea" you were trying to get across to me, askewed as your method may be.




braslvr
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12/27/2002
21:23:40
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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For "Pedro"

If you have indeed read several of Patinho's posts here, you should know that he is not in any way a "typical" tourist.

Yes, Recife is somewhat known as a sex tourism destination, but I don't believe Patinho has even been there. As far as labeling the entire Nordeste as being a mecca of prostitution, you are way out of line.

Besides your unnecessary personal attack on a very polite and intelligent member of the community here, you have shown your own ignorance by saying that that "Everyone knows" the Nordeste is a giant whorehouse.

The other thing you missed in your short-sighted comments was this:
The Nordeste of Brasil is NOT a tourist destination for Americans. It is NOT promoted here at all. I've been there at least 8 times, and I've only seen one other American. Ask any of the people there how many Americans they see per year.

Unbelievable comments from a Brasileiro. Have you even ever been to the Nordeste?

Maybe the reason one would SEE more prostitutes in Brasil than America, is because prostitution is NOT illegal in Brasil??


Patinho
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12/27/2002
21:42:16
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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That was much appreciated Braslvr..... thankyou.


Down to Earth
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12/29/2002
12:33:14
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Jennifer are you that same “Jenny” person in the other forum who got upset about my ironic post on “servants”? You certainly fit the profile because I have never seen anyone here who had such difficulty understanding other people’s opinions.

You obviously have your own very “deeply” set chart of moral values and anyone who does not fit your traditional stereotype is either a scumbag or some selfish arrogant immoral person.

Hello???? Can’t you even get a tiny bit of my point? What was your goal in posting your huge post on “your idea of moral values” and description of “poverty” in Brazil? Apart from telling us about what a good moral person you are and what you think of people who don’t fit your puritan values and “myself”, you are not teaching anything that we don’t know already. But never mind that, the strangest thing is that most of what you say is entirely besides my point and has almost nothing to do with what people have been saying here.

As you say yourself prostitution in Brazil is a consequence. You are talking about the LIVING/WORKING CONDITIONS and POVERTY amongst prostitutes in BRAZIL. I’m talking about the PROFESSION itself, CAPISCES?? If a woman has NO CHOICE but to sell her body for PEANUTS, obviously something isn’t right. If a prostitute suffers violence, abuse, poverty, risk of death and disease, starvation and still has no choice but to continue working, OBVIOUSLY something isn’t RIGHT. This is the reason why I questioned some of the users in this forum on their reasons for “going to third world countries to have access to prostitutes” since as we all know, conditions for prostitutes in these countries are far from being “acceptable”, don’t you get it?

As I said again and again, and I will repeat it for a last time. Prostitution is not on the PRIORITY list of Brazil’s problems. Brazil first needs to resolve the POVERTY, LITERACY, HOMELESS CHILDREN, AIDS, ECONOMY, HEALTH CARE etc.. Problems so that the women you described in your posts DO HAVE A CHOICE and don’t have to sell their bodies because they have no other means of survival or feeding their children. Again you are talking of prostitution as a CONSEQUENCE to poverty, I’m talking of prostitution as A CHOICE.

Once more, instead of concentrating on your “moral” values and yourself as well as attacking people in forums because you don’t understand what they are saying, go then, go and help the servants and prostitutes of Brazil if you are so great and honourable. These people for the majority have no access to education, electricity and probably not even water. Playing your violin in forums is not going to do anything for them, which explains that you can only be doing it for yourself and “moral” image.

Good post Braslvr, nice to see that at least a few people here are able to “sensibly” look into the subject without showing us their crosses and preaching the bible.



Dudley
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12/29/2002
17:15:02
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Down to Earth: You've got to be the most argumentative person ever, in the history of the world. GIVE IT A REST. Do you realize that Brent and Vargas are actually becoming more likable than you?

Please, do us all a favor and take a break.


Jennifer
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12/29/2002
17:29:26
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Down to Earth: Everyone has a moral code they live by... even if their code is "whatever is good for me goes".
I did not define my moral code . You did. If you want to accuse me of how you defined it and the value you assigned it,then I should thank you.To me, it was a compliment.
References to myself were to GIVE CREDIBILITY to what I was trying to explain because I HAVE worked trying to help these women (please pay attention when you read if you wish to comment) and thus HAVE EXPERIENCED THEIR REALITY... but NOT as a prostitute as you tried to insinuate (reread your post). You attacked me and I answered you as to how I know about this and what I have experienced. Just as I am answering you now.
No, I am a different Jennifer than Jenni.
I post to defend women who cannot defend themselves. Simply because part of my moral code tells me that I should defend those who can't defend themselves when I have the opportunity--in the courtroom, in the community, and now in the forum because it makes me angry to read of people who treat others in ways or hold attitudes which hurt them and I want to do something to change it. If it even makes someone think, it is a start. If there is one attitude changed, one less person using a prostitute, than I have done as you suggested--helped the women--even before I get back to Brasil.
You decide how you want to label that...
Brasil's problems, such as poverty, lack of health care, etc continue BECAUSE there are people who dont care about others less fortunate. So, not just me, or you, but EVERYONE should do something to solve them and that begins in the attitude. Each person is part of the solution or part of the problem. There is no middle ground.
What does YOUR moral code tell you to do? How does it tell you to treat others? How would you define it? What will YOU do to stand by it? Why do YOU post? In reality, that can be discerned by reading each person's posts about them.
To summarize what I have been trying to say to the posters...Please interact with prostitutes to help them, not to use them. These women are no less people than you or I.



Pedro
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12/30/2002
05:22:31
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Mr Patinho,

what you said in your last post differs considerably from what you had said in previous posts. First you told that you see prostitutes in Brazil all the time - it seems that they are everywhere - and now you tell that you met them a few times, and only in a specific site. Well, I am surely rude and childish, but you are surely a liar, not surprisingly, once everybody knows that internet is The Land of Lie - you may never take for 100% sure any text or image you pick in the net.

I was unfair. But first you wrote that you have been three times to Nordeste and cited Fortaleza; second, I know that Nordeste is affected by sex tourism and that Fortaleza is the main destination; third, you wrote that you meet prostitutes everywhere. Excuse me, mr. Patinho, but puting these pieces together, what else should I conclude, except that you are a sex tourist? But now you say that you have mostly been to Teresina, then I must conclude that you are not a sex tourist, once I have never heard that Teresina is affected (I actually have never been to Teresina).

For your information, the reason for prostitution usually is not for tourists, but there are some parts of the world where this affirmation is real - southeast of Asia, Cuba, Santo Domingo, and now the northeast of Brazil. The phenomenon is not widespread and is mostly restricted to some coastal cities. Most of the sex tourists are german, british, dutch, and they are seldom americans.

I never saw a prostitute in America, either. But all the times I've been there, I never stepped out of the "good" neighbourhoods. Well, maybe if I took the wrong train, got in the wrong station - an "accident", like happened to you. Strangely, you met no prostitute in Fortaleza (where there are many) but found them in Teresina (where there aren't many, as far as I'm concerned). Accidents happen.



Pedro
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12/30/2002
05:34:39
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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I believe Jennifer had no intention to offend or to show moral superiority. But her analysis on prostitution is uncomplete. She exposed only half of the question, but forgot the SECOND HALF.

For a girl to become a prostitute, it is not enough that she has no other choice and decides to sell her body - it is also necessary that a man agrees to pay.

If prostitution is a consequence of misery, what kind of "magic land" is this, where women live in poverty and men have money to spend with prostitutes? In regions plagued by misery and starvation, EVERYONE is poor. Both men and women. There's no market for prostitution.

Market for prostitution does exist in large cities with "bad" areas, where there is a large gap between rich and poor, a lack of morals and many people willing to make money fast. So, the "typical" prostitute is not a child in starvation, but a working-class girl who wants to enjoy a better standard with little effort. I believe this applies not only to Brazil, but to the entire world.

Prostitution is not a consequence of misery, but a consequence of customs. It is more rampant in areas where there are severe restrictions for extra-marriage sex, and it is less evident in areas where those restrictions are less evident.




Alex Furtado
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12/30/2002
11:10:21
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Caro Pedro,

"Prostitution is not a consequence of misery, but a consequence of customs".

Tenho de discordar de você em parte. Creio que a protituição é consequência dos costumes, mas também é consequência da miséria. Há prostitutas que escolhem esta vida sem o impulso irresistível da fome, apenas porque possuem padrões morais que as fazem aceitar a venda do corpo para alcançar bens e prazeres materiais como uma opção legítima. Alguns podem discordar, mas esta parece ser uma escolha consciente e livre. Contudo, o que deploro são justamente as milhares de mulheres sem escolha, que, corrompendo sua ética pessoal, sua religião, humilhadas e imersas em vergolha, se protituem como lenitivo para uma vida miserável. Isto é muito comum no Brasil. E como você afirmou com propriedade, não se pode olvidar a responsabilidade dos ricos, brasileiros e estrangeiros, que compram a degradação física e emocional de milhares de escravas sexuais.

Abraços,
Alex Furtado.


Patinho
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12/30/2002
15:07:08
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Pedro-

*sigh* I give up. I don't see where you are reading all these crazy things in my previous posts. Remember... my name is spelled P-A-T-I-N-H-O. OK, I know what I saw, I know where I went, I know what I know. Simple as that. I don't see how you arguing, actually I am not even sure what you are arguing about. If you want me to admit that I am a liar, I will just to get off this damn subject because I cannot continue to respond to posts that argue points I did not make in the first place.

OKAY PEOPLE! Is it me? Did I make those points? Please, if I led anyone else to believe as "Pedro" does, then tell me and perhaps there will need to be more clarification in my posts.

Like I said, I am not even sure what I am responding to anymore......

Pedro, what is your point?


Jennifer
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12/30/2002
22:14:59
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Alex: Muito obrigada. É legal que um brasilero confirmou o que eu estava tentando dizer. Espero que os outros prestarem atencão e pensarem nas suas palavras.

Alex: Thank you. It was great that a brazilian confirmed what I was trying to say. I hope everyone else will pay attention and think about your words.


Down to Earth
Guest


1/01/2003
18:47:57
E para hoje?
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Message:
Jennifer or Jenny, let me remind you that I wasn’t attacking you, actually I was not even speaking to you, I did not even notice your posts before you speak to me.You asked me to spend a night in a brothel and report to you the next day. I thought that this was either some form of attack or that you “knew” what you were talking about when suggesting such. Can’t you see what I mean? And this is why I said that it looked like you’ve experienced this yourself therefore I could not argue with you…

You also misunderstood my point on legality quote:” I suppose this will be just fine with you as long as whoever does it to you does it legally” since I cannot think of any country who is not under some kind of fundamental state or dictatorship that would legalise abuse/violence or rape towards prostitutes thus, I still stand by my point on the legalisation of prostitution. When you finally decide to actually talk about what I’m referring to, I will happily discuss it with you.

I’m not talking about morals, I’m not talking about defending anyone on the NET, I'm not talking about being a human rights protector; I’m simply giving my opinion on PROSTITUTION as an industry. We are discussing different matters all together. *GGEEEEEE!! I’m so bored of trying to come with different ways of repeating myself!*

Pedro can you translate my point to this woman, because I give up now and you seem to be doing a pretty good job.

Dudley, if I were trying to be loved, this would certainly be the last place I would go to and I believe that I would be posting sycophantic posts rather than trying to put my “apparently politically incorrect” opinions across a “FORUM”, in other words, making use of a place like this. If you don’t want arguments, join a correspondence club.

And don’t you dare talking about Brent or Vargas, I’m the one supposed to wind them up! They are my enemies, not yours “humpfff!”

Anyway, happy new year to all of you and even to the grumpy buggers in this forum!

;)



Me
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 Email

1/06/2003
12:23:20
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Jen, do not worry. The wholething is that Mr. Varga along with his Brazilian friends have small dicks, are lonlely, unsatisfied, superiorit comlex, etc, that's why the necessity to pay for sex. et them. They might buy off a few Brzilian police officers, bu I am sue he is also going to encouter one that love a bastard gringo that comes to our county to fuck the girls that could be their mother's, daughters, sisters, etc. I am sure the Police Officer is going to give him our first class treatment to the kind, and a great view from a suite in Bangu I, ith a great roomate called Zambuja, it's 2 feet tall, and weights around 300 pounds!


huh?
Guest


1/06/2003
17:12:05
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Does anyone understand what the fuck she just said?


Daniel
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 Email

1/15/2003
04:02:56
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Hallo to everybody!

I was seeking some useful information on brazil at this so called forum "what should we do in brazil?".
But unfortunately, i couldn' t filter out any. all i read were insoltations and cynical comments.
in german we call such things. " i püpfel reiter"; means "discussing the point of i"
i live in austria where most of the time snow and rain dominate the weather. so for me the no 1 i reason to go brazil is the sun, beaches, sea etc. Of course the girls are beautyful and some are also cheap, but i try to control myself to avoid a lack of respect for women in general.
The borderline between self-determined prostitutes and "normal" women is virtual to me. And only a matter of need and poverty.
Theoretically man could exploit women by cheating them and betraying them with the money. Thats a rape. No wonder and only a matter of time that the oppressed will turn against their agressors. My advice for this kind of men: be careful. there are others who care about things.
I ve been to rio and sao paulo once and agree the some people are proclaiming tourist traps there. i think they exist everywere tourist travel. but its ones own fault when step into. the ceapest place for one night in copacabana is to sleep on the beach, right?
there are alternatives everywere.
next time going to brazil i will take some time, maybe 6 months +.
please gimme some positive imput.

Abraços,
Daniel


AmericanWoman
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1/19/2003
04:07:37
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Who in the hell said the mid-west doesn't have whore houses and crackheads? I'm an American woman who happens to be married to a Brazilian man, and he was shocked upon entering my beloved country to find whores of all calibor exsist all over.

I'm as American as they get, and I can still speak the truth about our flaws. I am a White woman and let there be no mistake Americans are obessed with sex, look at the porn industry, we partake in more resources for the sense than any other country. We do have lagalized prostitues in some parts of Nevada. HBO just did a show on one of those whore ranches. In most places you go to jail for being an escort (high class whore), streetwalker (usually runway teens, and drug users), and some American women sleep with their high paid men for money, we call them golddiggers. Americans are obessed with sex, thats why we run off to places like Brazil to live our twisted fantasies. Because our good ole' goverment says we shouldn't like sex. We are the epitome of contradiction. Now don't get me wrong I freaking love my country, but I can be honest about how we are as a whole.

Now me I come from a very well to do Jewish family, I was raised in NY on the upper eastside where money rules and there are lots of well to do men. I live in NY still, but upstate. I went to an Ivy League University but I still became an escort, which is a high paid whore. Thee creme de la creme if you will. That mens for 4 years I only fucked lawyers, doctors, politicians, and different consulates from around the world. I plan on penning my tales one day. But you van checkout the book by an American "The Happy Hooker". Anyways don't let my fellow Americans on here fool you, we issues as well. I didn't have a hard life and was never raped. I'm a trust fund child, I just wanted to party and have sex, but felt why not get paid for sex, rather than give it away. I will say in order for you to have kept working for our madame (oh yeah we have pimps in the US, who are ruthless) but I had a female pimp, and she was called a madame. She sent us for regular doctor visits, she checkedout all the clients, and we ALWAYS wore condoms. Some wanted you to piss on them and whip them, but it paid well. I made between $3 and $4 grand (thousand) a week, and I only worked twice a week. Now the business is gone to hell, no more good honest hookers or whores whichever you prefer. I am a fulltime mommy and business woman now. I work in the advertising business. I learned how to sell things early on si it's perfect for me.

So let some Americans US citizens not fool you with our sometimes hollier than thou veneer. We invented capitalism and exploitation. But there is no place like the US, and although Brazil landed me a nice man, it still doesn't compare to the millions of ways to turn a dollar.

Oh yeah we do think we are better than everyone else. But if you want to see how many people can live in one city that can fit into Brazil a thousand times over, come to NY. We are 14 million alone strong in the entire state. Were hurting now economically because of September 11th 2001, but it's a place with many different cultures and this is America at it's finest and worst. You get it all right here, from the richest to the poorest. Tsk Tsk on us Americans for not being honest about our underpaid, and overpaid, and homeless, and AIDS epidemic, our contradictory laws and so forth. I still love the place and I still like Brazil despite the streetwalkers and the "we are racial harmony" image pushed off onto us tourist. But shit America does the same shit to tourist as well.




Anonymous
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1/19/2003
15:42:46
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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Thank you for your sincerity, but ... Rio has 12 million in the metropolitan area, and São Paulo 20 million.


AmericanWoman
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1/20/2003
08:04:34
RE: What should we do in Brazil?
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No need to thank me, and I don't think I was comparing numbers. It's obvious to anyone who can read that Brazil has more people in it than America all together. But let'see see if I were a jerk of an American I'd say the NEW YORK CITY has 14 million strong and 65% of us don't live in poverty, which is true the average New Yorker is middle class to middle upper class. But I'm not a jerk of American haha. If your unsure of what I've said in my previous post, please ask, never assume. I think I did more injustice to my homeland than to Brazilians. I think Brazil is heaven on earth so long as you never see a shantytown. I have no hate for anyone, I just prefer clear glasses to rose colored ones. So please note I am an American woman always will be and I'd want nothing else. God Bless Brazil!


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