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calipride
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11/03/2002
14:22:48
Subject: A Carioca?
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Message:
If someone is born in Rio State, Sao Goncalo,
would they still be a Carioca?
Is a Carioca only someone from Rio de Janiero?



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11/03/2002
14:39:57
RE: A Carioca?
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Yes, only those born in the city are called "carioca". Those born in the rest of the state are called "fluminense".


Anonymous
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11/03/2002
14:54:33
RE: A Carioca?
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thank you very much


Anonymous
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11/03/2002
15:20:43
Sao Goncalo
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Is Sao Goncalo in Rio de Janeiro, though?


BRENT
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11/03/2002
15:59:09
RE: A Carioca?
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Ze, you are 100% WRONG!

Look at http://ipanema.com/rio/basics/e/people.htm#people

Here is a bit of that Brazilian's definition of "Carioca":
According to linguists, the term Carioca, as locals call themselves, is not derived from the word Rio, as in carioca. It is actually a Tupi Indian term (kara'i oca), roughly meaning "white house", or "house of whites" (see history ). That's how they called the houses built by the Portuguese. For some reason, eventually the Portuguese started thinking of themselves as Cariocas.

You don't have to be born in Rio to be a Carioca. All you have to do is relax into the city lifestyle, and soon you will become one. There are some basics you should learn first, though, if you want to make friends with locals, that is...




Randy Paul
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11/03/2002
17:04:40
RE: A Carioca?
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Brent,

I know people from Penedo, Saquarema, Níteroi, Resende, Petropolis and other locations in the State of Rio de Janeiro. They all refer themselves as fluminenses and people from Rio de Janeiro city as cariocas.


Brent
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11/03/2002
17:16:09
RE: A Carioca?
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Look up Carioca in the dictionary and you'll find: "A native OR INHABITANT of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil" (my emphasis). Thus the dictionary definition says that someone from the U.S. or Yugoslavia or Japan could move to Rio de Janeiro and become an inhabitant and thus be a Carioca.


Randy Paul
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11/03/2002
18:35:27
RE: A Carioca?
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My point is that they are talking about the city, not the state. Ask any carioca, a far better source for facts in this instance than a dictionary

I wasn't born here, but I live in New York City. I consider myself a New Yorker. When I lived in New Rochelle in Westchester County, I didn't consider myself a New Yorker.


Someone who lives in Săo Gonçalo, Penedo, Cabo Frio, Saquarema, Parati, Búzios, Teresopolis, Petropolis, Itatiaia, Angra dos Reis, etc. are not cariocas. They are fluminenses.


Brent
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11/03/2002
18:48:07
RE: A Carioca?
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Randy, I never said anything about RJ state. My point is that being a Carioca is NOT dependent on if you were born in Rio de Janeiro. My point is that Ze is wrong (re-read what he (she?) said). If a person is born in the U.S.A. and then moves to Rio de Janeiro when he is 1 year old, and then grows up in Rio, he is just as much a Carioca as someone who is born there. Your statement about being a New Yorker only cements my point further -- you consider yourself a New Yorker because you live there, not because you were born there.

Yes, someone who lives in the other regions of RJ is not a Carioca. This is quite consistent with the dictionary definition.


Anonymous
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11/03/2002
18:52:58
RE: A Carioca?
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Alright. So if a Brazilian was born in Sao Goncalo, and now lives in California, would I be wrong in saying he is a Carioca?


Anti Randy
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11/03/2002
19:54:37
RE: A Carioca?
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It appears that Randy, whoever he is?? Wants to Brazilian, as the idiot always tries to alter questions! Randy, please! only respond if you could shed some proper info! I lived in Rio too!
Needless to say! Step down for a change!

Anti Randy!!!!!


Randy Paul
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11/03/2002
20:24:18
RE: A Carioca?
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>It appears that Randy, whoever he is?? Wants to Brazilian, as the idiot always tries to alter questions! Randy, please! only respond if you could shed some proper info! I lived in Rio too!
Needless to say! Step down for a change!

>Anti Randy!!!!!

Vai chupar prego!

>So if a Brazilian was born in Sao Goncalo, and now lives in California, would I be wrong in saying he is a Carioca?

No, they would be a fluminense as Săo Gonçalo is part of Rio de Janeiro state. Cariocas are from Rio de Janeiro city.

Brent, we are in agreement.



Guest


11/04/2002
15:52:25
A Carioca?
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Message:
Brent, before you try to argue, let me state that I live in Rio and I was born here. We will not call you a carioca if you were not born here, you will be called "Gringo". Although it would be in a friendly manner. Leave your book alone, it is outdated in 500 years, we do not speak tupí we speak portuguese, and it is not a dead language. No offense to all that think that they can fell themselves to be carioca, but it is not how things happen.
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Don't bother with it "Gringos" are usually treated even friendlier than locals, because we like visitors, and wish them to stay.



Guest


11/04/2002
15:57:37
RE: A Carioca?
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Message:
By the way, Zé is from José, a fairly generic name here.

ps: No, my name is not Zé, it is Gil, but someone already stole it from me in this fórum.


Brent
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11/05/2002
10:18:17
RE: A Carioca?
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Message:

ZE,

I believe that you were born in and live in Rio. But I really don't
care. You can still be wrong about your definition of "Carioca,"
and it appears that you are wrong. Until you offer more proof
that a Carioca is ONLY someone born in Rio -- so far, your only
proof is "I was born in Rio" -- I will stick with the deinition
offered by the editors of the American English Dictionary, who
have undoubtedly studied the etymology of the word and
debated its meaning far more than you have.

By the way, every source I have investigated, including tour
books and travel guides, says the same thing: A Carioca is an
INHABITANT of Rio de Janeiro city. Please, point me to a
credible source that indicates otherwise.


USCIT
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11/05/2002
12:53:31
RE: A Carioca?
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Just for info, for the best definition and root of a word go to the Complete Oxford Unabridged dictionary. They take every word and give all definitions and information on how the word has been used in history back to either the origion of the word or about 1400. I used to have one but gave it away one time when I was going up to run a tug boat in Alaska. Too cumbersome to pack around. <g> Haven't bought a new one but understand they're selling right now for about $400.00 US. (1600 R) Might be something available on the web however. Or perhaps a local library. It's an excellent dictionary.


USCIT
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11/05/2002
12:55:31
RE: A Carioca?
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I might add, the full printed version comes in 20 volumns. Or did.


Brent
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11/05/2002
13:01:28
RE: A Carioca?
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USCIT you are correct. I thought they were way more than
$400 though? A used book shop by my house sells an old
edition (31 volumes, I think). It is online, but you have to
subscribe to get to the dictionary unfortunately. My info came
from the Merriam Webster (unabriged) link someone else on
the board gave. Definitely the Oxford would give info a smaller
dictionary could not. If anyone has info to this definition please
post.


Info
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11/05/2002
13:17:00
RE: A Carioca?
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The most consulted Brazilian dictionary, the "Novo Dicionário Aurélio da Língua Portuguesa" sheds some light:

carioca [From Tupi kari'oka, 'white man's house'] Braz

Adj. 2 genders 1. From or belonging or related to the city of Rio de Janeiro. 2. It's said of the coffee already prepared to which water is added. 3. It's said of a Brazilan swine race.

Noum 4. Native or inhabitant of Rio de Janeiro city



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11/05/2002
14:25:37
RE: A Carioca?
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Do not forget that the origin of the word is not what is being questioned here. The actual meaning is, and, as a native, I have the advantage of seeing first hand what is the meaning given to the word at the given time. Altough it may not be wrong to call someone a "carioca" when he is not native, it is not in use nowadays.
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Brent, try to understand that the language "in foco" here is portuguese, not english. Altough you may use in english the word to describe anyone that lives here, we won't.

"Info" the Koogan Houaiss which has been more recently updated defines the noum as native to the city of Rio de Janeiro, the "or inhabitant" has been excluded.


USCIT
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11/05/2002
17:35:19
RE: A Carioca?
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Message:
Zé, and all, please forgive the intrusion. But I need to correct a statement I made earlier. I fully understand what you are saying Zé, so for me at any rate, that is not in question.

As to the Oxford dictionary however, I did cite the wrong price Brent. It should actually be $995.00 US (about 3500 R) plus shipping. They do say it is still a 20 volume set however. Although now they have 3 supplements also for sale. (I didn't check the price on those.)

The price I had quoted was for the CD-Rom version but somehow I added the book version shipping in when working from memory. The actualy CD version sells for $295.00 (about 850 R) shipping not considered.

This is available directly from the publisher, Oxford University, at www.oed.com/

Please forgive the error, and as mentioned, the sidetracking.


USCIT
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11/05/2002
21:19:09
RE: A Carioca?
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I know this has nothing to do with how the word Carioca is used in Brazil right now, but I ran a quick check on the word in the google search engine. I came up with:

An Egyptian Belly Dancer. (Named Carioca)

A 1935 Volvo automobile model. The PV 36 Carioca.

A fitness Exercise.

And a card game played in Argentina.




Brent
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11/08/2002
14:10:54
RE: A Carioca?
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Zee said:
>>"Do not forget that the origin of the word is not what is
being questioned here. The actual meaning is, and, as a
native, I have the advantage of seeing first hand what is the
meaning given to the word at the given time. Altough it may not
be wrong to call someone a "carioca" when he is not native, it
is not in use nowadays."<<

I never said dick about the origin of the word. Yes, you are a
native, and that gives you a certain amount of enlightenment
over non-natives, but I'm just asking you for one second to
maybe consider that you're using the word slightly incorrectly;
that maybe even people in Rio use its context slightly off.
Maybe the meaning has changed. This happens in all
languages. But please cite a source other than "the people of
Rio."

Zee also said:
>>"Brent, try to understand that the language "in foco" here is
portuguese, not english. Altough you may use in english the
word to describe anyone that lives here, we won't. "<<

Yes, the language in foco there is Portuguese. I know that. And
someone posted from a Portuguese dictionary that had
almost the same dictionary definition as the English
dictionary.


Zee concluded with:
>>"Info" the Koogan Houaiss which has been more recently
updated defines the noum as native to the city of Rio de
Janeiro, the "or inhabitant" has been excluded."<<

Prove it.



Vargas
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11/08/2002
14:14:34
RE: A Carioca?
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Message:
A tapioca? Man, whatever. You're a Brazilian.



Guest


11/09/2002
03:10:15
RE: A Carioca?
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Message:
Brent, do I need to write a depreciative word regarding your arrogant attitude towards my language? Tell me how would you apreciate if someone debated with you about your own language using a foreign dictionary?

I will not discuss this further


USCIT
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11/09/2002
10:59:35
RE: A Carioca?
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Brent, to me you're going just a little bit overboard with this.

Zé is absolutely 100% correct in defining the word according to local useage.

Refer back to that Oxford Dictionary that we discussed earlier. Note how the definitions of words have changed over the years. The definition of a word is determined by 'usage' not the printed word of a dictionary. After it becomes accepted long enough, the dictionary changes ITS definition to read according to that which is accepted. Just as Oxford has done over the centuries. There are virutally thousands of words in the English language that do not mean the same thing today that they meant back in 1500. Why not the Brazilians with the Portuguese language. After all, it is theirs.

Finally, the word Carioca is derived from a Tupi word meaning 'white man's house'. As has been most adequately explained. The first settlement in Brazil was established at Rio. Therefore, even an extension of the meaning of the word, 'white man's house in Rio' would be correct. Anyone using it to mean 'white man's house in Săo Paulo' or elsewhere, would be the one that was wrong.


Holly
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11/09/2002
17:13:26
RE: A Carioca?
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Hi, everyone.

USCIT, you are correct that dictionary definitions merely reflect usage. This is a fact many people don't realize. Dictionaries also reflect usage of pronunciation and spelling. When predominate usage changes in any of these three categories, it eventually becomes accepted by dictionary editors, who reflect these changes in newer editions of the dictionary.

(As far as American English goes, the American Heritage dictionary is an excellent choice because it has commentary on definitions, spellings, and pronunciations for some controversial words.)

Some examples: The word "alright" now appears in some dictionaries, but ten years ago it did not. The word "often" should be pronounced without the "t" sound, but many Americans pronounce the "t" and that pronunciation has crept into dictionaries (even though it is listed second to the "t-less" definition, and therefore not preferred by any dictionary).

But popular usage doesn't mean correct usage. No dictionaries that I know of sanction the hyphenless "email," even though it is far more popular than the correct "e-mail." Will "email" eventually be accepted? Maybe. But it's not now.

I don't know much about Portuguese, and I won't argue with Zé's definition of Carioca. But given the definition that was given, from a Portuguese dictionary, it does seem that the word Carioca used to include an inhabitant of Rio de Janeiro. Zé, you said that the dictionary has been updated to exclude "inhabitant," and I have to believe you, as I've never seen either dictionary. I tried to search online, but every online Portuguese dictionary I could find included the word "inhabitant" in its definition of Carioca.

Brent, Zé is right that he has an insight into the word that you simply do not. Try to respect that when replying. Zé knows more about Portuguese usage than you do. But you are right that it would be nice to see a current definition that is approved by Portuguese-language experts, if only to compare that to the popular usage of which Zé speaks.


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