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Subject: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha


Posted by Randy Paul
On Thursday, November 08, 2001 at 12:36:09

Message:
Probably one of the most thoroughly uninformed, hateful and frankly, stupid articles I have ever read in your publication was the article by Dione Rocha titled “No-Win Game.” I am compelled to respond it by addressing the various points Ms. Rocha brings up.

“To show America's power through an armed conflict is a childish and not very intelligent reaction, and makes no sense for a number of reasons.”

So the USA is not allowed to defend itself, its citizens, and residents (many of whom are your countrymen). What do you propose we do? Invite bin Laden and Mullah Omar over to sambar um poquinho? Of course not! The Taliban doesn’t allow music in Afghanistan, so they surely wouldn’t enjoy that.

"One is that most of Afghanistan's population know nothing but hunger and misery caused by two decades of war. They do not have a clue as to what " The Taliban" or "New York" is, so remote are they from what we call 'civilization'.”

Regarding New York, while you may be correct, if you think that the average Afghani doesn’t have “a clue as to what ‘ The Taliban’” is, it is you who are clueless, Sra. Rocha. Do you believe that women in Taliban controlled Afghanistan wear burkas as a fashion statement or are denied medical care or the right to work for no reason after years of freedom under prior governments, some of which included women in government ministry positions? Do you think that men who never had any desire to grow beards who are now forced to grow them do not know who made them grow them? You are beyond clueless; you are badly uninformed.

“Second is that whoever is responsible for the attacks, is ready to respond to retaliation with even bigger and unexpected force.”

Do you know this for a fact? If so you should inform the authorities. Failing to do so would make you an accomplice. If not, then don't present your speculation as fact. That certainly seems to be a persistent problem that permeates this diatribe of yours.

"No one is going to tease a giant and not expect a reaction.”

It depends upon what the reaction may be. Experts on terrorism believe that bin Laden may be fomenting a popular uprising against governments in the Middle East and other predominantly Muslim countries (e.g. Indonesia and Malaysia) to lead to civil wars against more moderate leaders in order to install his brand of Muslim fanaticism.

Moreover, you are trying to ascribe logical behavior to a fanatic. If you had any sense at all, you would realize what an exercise in futility that is.

“Further yet, knowing that the giant will react, any being with a minimum of intelligence would have an even bigger (and worse) surprise for later.”

More than ten years after the Gulf War another giant teaser (Saddam Hussein) still hasn’t launched his surprise. Your statement is your opinion and is not based on any facts in evidence. It is presumptuous and I’ll excuse it because of your youth.

“Responding violently to the attacks will just generate an endless chain of violence that will result in loss for humanity as a whole. “

A fair concern, what is your proposal for self-defense? Do nothing? Bomb bin Laden and the Taliban with hugs and kisses? Let terrorism reign supreme and unchecked?

“Also, we have to consider every face of the subject. No American has ever cried over the millions of people who die every day in Third World Countries, victims (directly or indirectly) of American foreign policies designed to keep America on top. The average American is not able to see that. They are not supposed to see that link. That is why they think they are poor victims who have been attacked for no reason and that is why they have been asking so insistently for retaliation. “

This is probably the most thoroughly stupid portion of your article. Have you met all 260+ million of us? Do you think that we all move in lockstep, that none of us have ever been to the Third World and have never worked on behalf of human rights issues in the Third World? Did you know that the US section of Amnesty International is the largest section in the world? Do you think that we all agree with every statement and action our government conducts? Nothing could be further from the truth. For the record, I responded to you personally on this point and you have yet to afford me the courtesy of a response. That merely leads me to believe that you either lack the courage of your convictions or lack the strength of character to acknowledge the error of your sweeping and uninformed generalizations. As far as “asking insistently for retaliation,” if you legitimize terrorism as a form of political expression as this statement clearly does, then be prepared for the Pandora’s Box that you are opening. How about the residents of Rocinha getting their hands on some artillery and firing shells into the rich residences of São Conrado and Leblon. Indeed, what would stop the entire Zona Norte from attacking the Zona Sul in Rio de Janeiro? What would you think of poorer residents of São Paulo firing stinger missiles at the helicopters of rich businessmen going from their homes in Morumbi to their offices on Avenida Paulista? Would you accept the Xingu and Xavante Indians blowing up the Itaipu dam? Could you accept the Pataxo Indians retaking Porto Seguro?

“The attack upon a member of the United Nations should be considered as an attack upon all. Who guarantees that if Brazil had been attacked, the States would give us their support?”

It’s called the Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance, more commonly known as the Rio Treaty. If you want to actually acquaint yourself with a fact for a change, you can find the text at http://www.oas.org.

“They want us to stop polluting, but they keep on polluting in order to maintain the growth of their economy.”

I think that is a fair criticism, but again, it is a generalization. Many of us do our part: recycling, driving more fuel-efficient cars and using public transportation.

“They give us the hypocritical speech of tolerance, but when they are asked to do the same, the president leaves an International Conference Against Racism.“

Another fair criticism, but only to a point. When I visit Brazil and see supposedly educated white people refer to Afro-Brazilians as “crioulos” and call their servants “Neguinha” to their face, I cannot help but think how I would be ostracized socially if I were to do that here, not that I ever would say such things. I’m glad to see that they are finally considering affirmative action programs in Brazil. I just wonder why a country that has portrayed itself as a “racial paradise” would ever have to do so.

“Before World War II, Europe was what America is now. The parents of my generation studied French at school. In a couple of decades, America may no longer be what it is. And the same way I had to learn how to speak English in order to achieve better positions in an ‘Americanized’ world, who knows what language my children will have to learn at school?”

O coitada! You “had” to learn English! Que pena! Did someone force you at gunpoint to learn English? I learned German, Spanish and Portuguese because I wanted to, just as I’m sure you learned English because you wanted to learn it. Grow up and accept responsibility for your actions. There are probably millions of Brazilians who would love to learn English, but lack the financial means to do so. How sad for you that your family had the means to do so.

“And one day, tired of suffering under the feet of a ruling country, America may be seen as terrorist, and they will want their reasons to be heard.”

Well, we certainly won’t be inclined to fly planes into office buildings to make our point. We will do so on the currency of our ideas. I have no doubt that you will still be whining and blaming us for all of the world’s troubles.



RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Me too
On Thursday, November 08, 2001 at 14:14:52

Message:
Bravo to Randy Paul for his fine post.

I just want to add that the problem isn't really the Dione Rocha's and Frei Betto's of the world - there are a lot of morons around who don't mind revealing their stupidity by expressing the types of ill informed and ignorant views that these two have expressed. I think the bigger problem is Brazzil.com. You only have to look over their back issues to see they have virtually no editorial standards, but geeez-louise, come on! Did they even read this stuff before they published it? You have to assume that they did, and that they therefore agree with these ideas. And for that I must repeat some earlier posts to say not only:

Shame on Dione Rocha and Frei Betto

But also,

SHAME ON BRAZZIL.COM
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Friday, November 09, 2001 at 09:14:42

Message:
Thanks for the kind words. I do agree with Friar Betto regarding the following statement:

"Just as Pax Romana was not built on hatred of Christians, Pax Americana will not have a future if it foments hatred toward Islamic people. Without them, western culture would not be as it is today. As the Jewish people gave the world Marx, Freud, Einstein and many other geniuses in science and the arts, the Arab people have given us geniuses such as Al-Khwarizmi in the area of mathematics, Al-Kindi and Alhazem in physics, and Avrróis in the area of philosophy."

That being said, his lack of sympathy and compassion toward the victims of the attacks is contemptible and most assuredly, not Christian.

For the record, my wife is Brazilian and I attend mass here in New York with the Brazilian community. Our priest, a fine man from Espírito Santo was in tears at the end of mass the first Sunday after the attacks.

I think that your points are well taken regarding Brazzil.com. Dione Rocha is a coward (three weeks since I sent her an e-mail and she still lacks the strength of character to respond) and ignorant. If she were a student of mine, I would have given her article an F for relying on glittering generalities and making numerous claims without factual support. Brazzil.com is irresponsible for publishing such an article without any apparent attempt at editing. This must be their editorial policy: Opinião e cu: cade um tem um. That works fine in a forum such as this, but it is a lousy editorial policy.


RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Friday, November 09, 2001 at 09:14:49

Message:
Thanks for the kind words. I do agree with Friar Betto regarding the following statement:

"Just as Pax Romana was not built on hatred of Christians, Pax Americana will not have a future if it foments hatred toward Islamic people. Without them, western culture would not be as it is today. As the Jewish people gave the world Marx, Freud, Einstein and many other geniuses in science and the arts, the Arab people have given us geniuses such as Al-Khwarizmi in the area of mathematics, Al-Kindi and Alhazem in physics, and Avrróis in the area of philosophy."

That being said, his lack of sympathy and compassion toward the victims of the attacks is contemptible and most assuredly, not Christian.

For the record, my wife is Brazilian and I attend mass here in New York with the Brazilian community. Our priest, a fine man from Espírito Santo was in tears at the end of mass the first Sunday after the attacks.

I think that your points are well taken regarding Brazzil.com. Dione Rocha is a coward (three weeks since I sent her an e-mail and she still lacks the strength of character to respond) and ignorant. If she were a student of mine, I would have given her article an F for relying on glittering generalities and making numerous claims without factual support. Brazzil.com is irresponsible for publishing such an article without any apparent attempt at editing. This must be their editorial policy: Opinião e cu: cade um tem um. That works fine in a forum such as this, but it is a lousy editorial policy.


RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Friday, November 09, 2001 at 09:15:13

Message:
Thanks for the kind words. I do agree with Friar Betto regarding the following statement:

"Just as Pax Romana was not built on hatred of Christians, Pax Americana will not have a future if it foments hatred toward Islamic people. Without them, western culture would not be as it is today. As the Jewish people gave the world Marx, Freud, Einstein and many other geniuses in science and the arts, the Arab people have given us geniuses such as Al-Khwarizmi in the area of mathematics, Al-Kindi and Alhazem in physics, and Avrróis in the area of philosophy."

That being said, his lack of sympathy and compassion toward the victims of the attacks is contemptible and most assuredly, not Christian.

For the record, my wife is Brazilian and I attend mass here in New York with the Brazilian community. Our priest, a fine man from Espírito Santo was in tears at the end of mass the first Sunday after the attacks.

I think that your points are well taken regarding Brazzil.com. Dione Rocha is a coward (three weeks since I sent her an e-mail and she still lacks the strength of character to respond) and ignorant. If she were a student of mine, I would have given her article an F for relying on glittering generalities and making numerous claims without factual support. Brazzil.com is irresponsible for publishing such an article without any apparent attempt at editing. This must be their editorial policy: Opinião e cu: cade um tem um. That works fine in a forum such as this, but it is a lousy editorial policy.


RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Friday, November 09, 2001 at 09:15:32

Message:
Thanks for the kind words. I do agree with Friar Betto regarding the following statement:

"Just as Pax Romana was not built on hatred of Christians, Pax Americana will not have a future if it foments hatred toward Islamic people. Without them, western culture would not be as it is today. As the Jewish people gave the world Marx, Freud, Einstein and many other geniuses in science and the arts, the Arab people have given us geniuses such as Al-Khwarizmi in the area of mathematics, Al-Kindi and Alhazem in physics, and Avrróis in the area of philosophy."

That being said, his lack of sympathy and compassion toward the victims of the attacks is contemptible and most assuredly, not Christian.

For the record, my wife is Brazilian and I attend mass here in New York with the Brazilian community. Our priest, a fine man from Espírito Santo was in tears at the end of mass the first Sunday after the attacks.

I think that your points are well taken regarding Brazzil.com. Dione Rocha is a coward (three weeks since I sent her an e-mail and she still lacks the strength of character to respond) and ignorant. If she were a student of mine, I would have given her article an F for relying on glittering generalities and making numerous claims without factual support. Brazzil.com is irresponsible for publishing such an article without any apparent attempt at editing. This must be their editorial policy: Opinião e cu: cade um tem um. That works fine in a forum such as this, but it is a lousy editorial policy.


RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Friday, November 09, 2001 at 09:15:45

Message:
Thanks for the kind words. I do agree with Friar Betto regarding the following statement:

"Just as Pax Romana was not built on hatred of Christians, Pax Americana will not have a future if it foments hatred toward Islamic people. Without them, western culture would not be as it is today. As the Jewish people gave the world Marx, Freud, Einstein and many other geniuses in science and the arts, the Arab people have given us geniuses such as Al-Khwarizmi in the area of mathematics, Al-Kindi and Alhazem in physics, and Avrróis in the area of philosophy."

That being said, his lack of sympathy and compassion toward the victims of the attacks is contemptible and most assuredly, not Christian.

For the record, my wife is Brazilian and I attend mass here in New York with the Brazilian community. Our priest, a fine man from Espírito Santo was in tears at the end of mass the first Sunday after the attacks.

I think that your points are well taken regarding Brazzil.com. Dione Rocha is a coward (three weeks since I sent her an e-mail and she still lacks the strength of character to respond) and ignorant. If she were a student of mine, I would have given her article an F for relying on glittering generalities and making numerous claims without factual support. Brazzil.com is irresponsible for publishing such an article without any apparent attempt at editing. This must be their editorial policy: Opinião e cu: cade um tem um. That works fine in a forum such as this, but it is a lousy editorial policy.


RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Friday, November 09, 2001 at 09:16:25

Message:
Thanks for the kind words. I do agree with Friar Betto regarding the following statement:

"Just as Pax Romana was not built on hatred of Christians, Pax Americana will not have a future if it foments hatred toward Islamic people. Without them, western culture would not be as it is today. As the Jewish people gave the world Marx, Freud, Einstein and many other geniuses in science and the arts, the Arab people have given us geniuses such as Al-Khwarizmi in the area of mathematics, Al-Kindi and Alhazem in physics, and Avrróis in the area of philosophy."

That being said, his lack of sympathy and compassion toward the victims of the attacks is contemptible and most assuredly, not Christian.

For the record, my wife is Brazilian and I attend mass here in New York with the Brazilian community. Our priest, a fine man from Espírito Santo was in tears at the end of mass the first Sunday after the attacks.

I think that your points are well taken regarding Brazzil.com. Dione Rocha is a coward (three weeks since I sent her an e-mail and she still lacks the strength of character to respond) and ignorant. If she were a student of mine, I would have given her article an F for relying on glittering generalities and making numerous claims without factual support. Brazzil.com is irresponsible for publishing such an article without any apparent attempt at editing. That works fine in a forum such as this, but it is a lousy editorial policy.


RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Friday, November 09, 2001 at 09:24:16

Message:
Sorry for the multiple posts. I kept receiving error messages and assumed that the post didn't go through.
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Diog
On Friday, November 09, 2001 at 20:22:06

Message:
It would have been better for Brazzil.com had they posted Dione Rocha’s uninformed and misinforming schoolgirl diatribe on this forum rather than publish it under their imprimatur. The only information associated with her opinion is that its publication tells us what Brazzil.com is all about.

To Randy Paul: It’s not surprising that the authorette would decline your invitation to exchange e-mails with her. It’s no more surprising than that baloney would reject the grinder.


RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Diog
On Friday, November 09, 2001 at 20:22:27

Message:
It would have been better for Brazzil.com had they posted Dione Rocha’s uninformed and misinforming schoolgirl diatribe on this forum rather than publish it under their imprimatur. The only information associated with her opinion is that its publication tells us what Brazzil.com is all about.

To Randy Paul: It’s not surprising that the authorette would decline your invitation to exchange e-mails with her. It’s no more surprising than that baloney would reject the grinder.


RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Diog
On Friday, November 09, 2001 at 20:25:02

Message:
It would have been better for Brazzil.com had they posted Dione Rocha’s uninformed
and misinforming schoolgirl diatribe on this forum rather than publish it under their
imprimatur. The only information associated with her opinion is that its publication
tells us what Brazzil.com is all about.

To Randy Paul: It’s not surprising that the authorette would decline your invitation to
exchange e-mails with her. It’s no more surprising than that baloney would reject the
grinder.
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Giovanna
On Saturday, November 10, 2001 at 16:56:58

Message:
Quer dizer que a Dione Rocha pode ter a opinião dela, mas a revista não deveria publicar? Que isso!! E aquela estória de liberdade de expressão, primeira emenda, etc.
Se vocês querem ler uma revista que seja cegamente pró-americana, sem mostrar opiniões divergentes, vocês deveriam continuar lendo apenas jonais e revistas americanos.
Eu não concordo com o que ela escreveu (parece até que os EUA não foram as vítimas, é ridículo.), mas muita gente pensa assim (gente que não é do Taliban); e se vocês leram o resto da revista, viram artigos que rebatem os argumentos dela.
No meu ponto de vista, reclamar porque a revista aceitou o artigo da Dione Rocha é o mesmo que reclamar porque a CNN mostrou imagens no Osama Bin Laden (guardadas as devidas proporções). São pessoas que tem opiníões com as quais eu não concordo, mas que eu quero conhecer, nem que seja para criticar depois.
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Giovanna
On Saturday, November 10, 2001 at 16:57:04

Message:
Quer dizer que a Dione Rocha pode ter a opinião dela, mas a revista não deveria publicar? Que isso!! E aquela estória de liberdade de expressão, primeira emenda, etc.
Se vocês querem ler uma revista que seja cegamente pró-americana, sem mostrar opiniões divergentes, vocês deveriam continuar lendo apenas jonais e revistas americanos.
Eu não concordo com o que ela escreveu (parece até que os EUA não foram as vítimas, é ridículo.), mas muita gente pensa assim (gente que não é do Taliban); e se vocês leram o resto da revista, viram artigos que rebatem os argumentos dela.
No meu ponto de vista, reclamar porque a revista aceitou o artigo da Dione Rocha é o mesmo que reclamar porque a CNN mostrou imagens no Osama Bin Laden (guardadas as devidas proporções). São pessoas que tem opiníões com as quais eu não concordo, mas que eu quero conhecer, nem que seja para criticar depois.
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Giovanna
On Saturday, November 10, 2001 at 16:57:14

Message:
Quer dizer que a Dione Rocha pode ter a opinião dela, mas a revista não deveria publicar? Que isso!! E aquela estória de liberdade de expressão, primeira emenda, etc.
Se vocês querem ler uma revista que seja cegamente pró-americana, sem mostrar opiniões divergentes, vocês deveriam continuar lendo apenas jonais e revistas americanos.
Eu não concordo com o que ela escreveu (parece até que os EUA não foram as vítimas, é ridículo.), mas muita gente pensa assim (gente que não é do Taliban); e se vocês leram o resto da revista, viram artigos que rebatem os argumentos dela.
No meu ponto de vista, reclamar porque a revista aceitou o artigo da Dione Rocha é o mesmo que reclamar porque a CNN mostrou imagens no Osama Bin Laden (guardadas as devidas proporções). São pessoas que tem opiníões com as quais eu não concordo, mas que eu quero conhecer, nem que seja para criticar depois.
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Diog
On Saturday, November 10, 2001 at 18:33:55

Message:
I for one am quite happy Brazzil.com published Dione Rocha’s piece. As I said, the real information lies in the fact that it reveals the nature of Brazzil.com. I don’t expect them to change that nature. They may just try to conceal it better in the future. Too late though. Some of us have already learned what we needed to know. The first amendment and freedom of expression are preserved, including my right to comment on the form and content of expression by others, disjointed views of the meaning of the first amendment notwithstanding.

RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Saturday, November 10, 2001 at 19:05:15

Message:
Para Giovana,

O problema com o artigo de Dione Rocha é ela escreveu opinião sem base de nenhum pedacinho de fato. Por exemplo, a frase seguinte que ela escreveu é totalmente bobagem:

"No American has ever cried over the millions of people who die every day in Third World Countries, victims (directly or indirectly) of American foreign policies designed to keep America on top. The average American is not able to see that. "

Eu, por exemplo trabalhei de graça por Amnetsy International pra 14 anos, sobre direitos humanos no mundo enteiro. É mais facil pra ela para fazer estéreotipos que fazer pesquisa e obter a verdade. Ela tem direito da opinião dela, mas o artigo dela é porcaria pura.

Tentei fazer um dialogo com ela, mas ela não escreveu me de volta. Então so posso pensar que ela não tem a coragem das convicões de;a.

Disculpe meus erros gramaticais.

Randy Paul
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Saturday, November 10, 2001 at 21:36:22

Message:
To Giovana,

What I objected to with Brazzil.com publishing the piece by Dione Rocha is the fact that it is pure opinion with any supporting documentation for her claims and a hate-filled diatribe against the USA.

A reputable magazine (the New Yorker, for example) would insist that if someone wrote such a piece that they would submit it to fact checkers prior to publication and would insist that she provide documentation for such statements as this:

""No American has ever cried over the millions of people who die every day in Third World Countries, victims (directly or indirectly) of American foreign policies designed to keep America on top. The average American is not able to see that. "

or this:

"One is that most of Afghanistan's population know nothing but hunger and misery caused by two decades of war. They do not have a clue as to what " The Taliban" or "New York" is, so remote are they from what we call 'civilization'."

When a magazine publishes a piece such as that in an article, it is staking its reputation on the veracity of the article. By failing to show even the slightest bit of critical scrutiny to Ms. Rocha's article, Brazzil.com shows not the slightest regard for its own reputation.

Ms. Rocha has every right to her opinion, as demented, uninformed, warped and frankly, idiotic as it may be, but this magazine is not obliged to publish it outside of this forum. Your analogy to television networks not running Osama bin Laden's diatribes is erroneous on its face for this reason: Osama bin Laden's comments are at least newsworthy, as perverted as they may be. Who the hell is Dione Rocha? A self-described "Brazilian communications major concerned about social issues." Obviously crimes against humanity are not among her concerns. Her comments are not newsworthy in the least.

You are also presuming that I only want to read positive, pro-USA comments. That is not at all correct. I have doubts and concerns about what we are doing. I regret that it is referred to as a war as I feel this plays into Osama bin Laden's hands and enables to rally support for his crimes. This was a crime, a horrible, indefensible crime against humanity, a hideous attack against a civilian population that has more in common with Hitler than Suleiman or Saladin.

Ms. Rocha in her piece seems to be justifying these crimes against humanity. I will repeat what I said in my original post here and I think that it is a point worth pondering:

"If you legitimize terrorism as a form of political expression as this statement clearly does, then be prepared for the Pandora?s Box that you are opening. How about the residents of Rocinha getting their hands on some artillery and firing shells into the rich residences of São Conrado and Leblon. Indeed, what would stop the entire Zona Norte from attacking the Zona Sul in Rio de Janeiro? What would you think of poorer residents of São Paulo firing stinger missiles at the helicopters of rich businessmen going from their homes in Morumbi to their offices on Avenida Paulista? Would you accept the Xingu and Xavante Indians blowing up the Itaipu dam? Could you accept the Pataxo Indians retaking Porto Seguro? "

Are you prepared for that Ms. Rocha?
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Giovanna
On Sunday, November 11, 2001 at 04:29:41

Message:
Para Diog:

<As I said, the real information lies in the fact that it reveals the nature of Brazzil.com. >

E qual seria, na sua opinião, "the nature" da revista?
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Giovanna
On Sunday, November 11, 2001 at 04:29:47

Message:
Para Diog:

<As I said, the real information lies in the fact that it reveals the nature of Brazzil.com. >

E qual seria, na sua opinião, "the nature" da revista?
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Giovanna
On Sunday, November 11, 2001 at 04:29:51

Message:
Para Diog:

<As I said, the real information lies in the fact that it reveals the nature of Brazzil.com. >

E qual seria, na sua opinião, "the nature" da revista?
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Giovanna
On Sunday, November 11, 2001 at 04:33:34

Message:
Para: Randy Paul

<A reputable magazine (the New Yorker, for example) would insist that if someone wrote such a piece that they would submit it to fact checkers prior to publication and would insist that she provide documentation for such statements as this: >

Primeiro: essa revista não é a New Yorker (como você notou); segundo: esse foi um artigo de opinião, assinado por ela, que não precisa necessariamente refletir a opinião da revista, terceiro: ela fez generalizaçõoes bem pesadas e difíceis de provar, no que eu concordo com você.

<By failing to show even the slightest bit of critical scrutiny to Ms. Rocha's article, Brazzil.com shows not the slightest regard for its own reputation. >

Você leu o resto da revista? Você leu o artigo do Alberto Dines? Pra mim esse artigo é o contaponto crítico aos artigos da Dione Rocha e do Frei Betto. Além do mais se você tivesse lido o que saiu na imprensa brasileira após os atentados, você ficaria muito mais horrorizado. Todos os jornais deram espaço para este tipo de artigo (eles eram um pouco menos infantis, é verdade), mas também deram espaço para o Alberto Dines. Isto chama-se debate. Você lê e forma a sua própria opinião. Eu prefiro que seja assim, ao invés de uma falsa isenção.

Mas eu entedi o que você quer dizer, e também acho que a opinião dela é realmente muito preconceituosa, mais apropriada para a internet, que é um caos mesmo e ninguém precisa apresentar provar sobre aquilo que está falando. Mas eu também acho que a intenção da revista foi boa. Eu li e ouvi várias pessoas com os mesmos argumentos na internet, na mídia, na minha cidade, no bar, etc., a revista apenas quis mostrar a realidade do que muitas pessoas pensam. Afinal, a linha editorial dela é mostrar o Brasil como ele é.

<Ms. Rocha has every right to her opinion, as demented, uninformed, warped and frankly, idiotic as it may be, but this magazine is not obliged to publish it outside of this forum. Your analogy to television networks not running Osama bin Laden's diatribes is erroneous on its face for this reason: Osama bin Laden's comments are at least newsworthy, as perverted as they may be.>

Os comentários dela também são úteis. Eles são provocativos e fizeram algumas pessoas pararem de "lurkar". :o). Fizeram vocês argumentarem e mostrarem que ela está errada. :)
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Giovanna
On Sunday, November 11, 2001 at 04:33:41

Message:
Para: Randy Paul

<A reputable magazine (the New Yorker, for example) would insist that if someone wrote such a piece that they would submit it to fact checkers prior to publication and would insist that she provide documentation for such statements as this: >

Primeiro: essa revista não é a New Yorker (como você notou); segundo: esse foi um artigo de opinião, assinado por ela, que não precisa necessariamente refletir a opinião da revista, terceiro: ela fez generalizaçõoes bem pesadas e difíceis de provar, no que eu concordo com você.

<By failing to show even the slightest bit of critical scrutiny to Ms. Rocha's article, Brazzil.com shows not the slightest regard for its own reputation. >

Você leu o resto da revista? Você leu o artigo do Alberto Dines? Pra mim esse artigo é o contaponto crítico aos artigos da Dione Rocha e do Frei Betto. Além do mais se você tivesse lido o que saiu na imprensa brasileira após os atentados, você ficaria muito mais horrorizado. Todos os jornais deram espaço para este tipo de artigo (eles eram um pouco menos infantis, é verdade), mas também deram espaço para o Alberto Dines. Isto chama-se debate. Você lê e forma a sua própria opinião. Eu prefiro que seja assim, ao invés de uma falsa isenção.

Mas eu entedi o que você quer dizer, e também acho que a opinião dela é realmente muito preconceituosa, mais apropriada para a internet, que é um caos mesmo e ninguém precisa apresentar provar sobre aquilo que está falando. Mas eu também acho que a intenção da revista foi boa. Eu li e ouvi várias pessoas com os mesmos argumentos na internet, na mídia, na minha cidade, no bar, etc., a revista apenas quis mostrar a realidade do que muitas pessoas pensam. Afinal, a linha editorial dela é mostrar o Brasil como ele é.

<Ms. Rocha has every right to her opinion, as demented, uninformed, warped and frankly, idiotic as it may be, but this magazine is not obliged to publish it outside of this forum. Your analogy to television networks not running Osama bin Laden's diatribes is erroneous on its face for this reason: Osama bin Laden's comments are at least newsworthy, as perverted as they may be.>

Os comentários dela também são úteis. Eles são provocativos e fizeram algumas pessoas pararem de "lurkar". :o). Fizeram vocês argumentarem e mostrarem que ela está errada. :)
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Giovanna
On Sunday, November 11, 2001 at 04:33:46

Message:
Para: Randy Paul

<A reputable magazine (the New Yorker, for example) would insist that if someone wrote such a piece that they would submit it to fact checkers prior to publication and would insist that she provide documentation for such statements as this: >

Primeiro: essa revista não é a New Yorker (como você notou); segundo: esse foi um artigo de opinião, assinado por ela, que não precisa necessariamente refletir a opinião da revista, terceiro: ela fez generalizaçõoes bem pesadas e difíceis de provar, no que eu concordo com você.

<By failing to show even the slightest bit of critical scrutiny to Ms. Rocha's article, Brazzil.com shows not the slightest regard for its own reputation. >

Você leu o resto da revista? Você leu o artigo do Alberto Dines? Pra mim esse artigo é o contaponto crítico aos artigos da Dione Rocha e do Frei Betto. Além do mais se você tivesse lido o que saiu na imprensa brasileira após os atentados, você ficaria muito mais horrorizado. Todos os jornais deram espaço para este tipo de artigo (eles eram um pouco menos infantis, é verdade), mas também deram espaço para o Alberto Dines. Isto chama-se debate. Você lê e forma a sua própria opinião. Eu prefiro que seja assim, ao invés de uma falsa isenção.

Mas eu entedi o que você quer dizer, e também acho que a opinião dela é realmente muito preconceituosa, mais apropriada para a internet, que é um caos mesmo e ninguém precisa apresentar provar sobre aquilo que está falando. Mas eu também acho que a intenção da revista foi boa. Eu li e ouvi várias pessoas com os mesmos argumentos na internet, na mídia, na minha cidade, no bar, etc., a revista apenas quis mostrar a realidade do que muitas pessoas pensam. Afinal, a linha editorial dela é mostrar o Brasil como ele é.

<Ms. Rocha has every right to her opinion, as demented, uninformed, warped and frankly, idiotic as it may be, but this magazine is not obliged to publish it outside of this forum. Your analogy to television networks not running Osama bin Laden's diatribes is erroneous on its face for this reason: Osama bin Laden's comments are at least newsworthy, as perverted as they may be.>

Os comentários dela também são úteis. Eles são provocativos e fizeram algumas pessoas pararem de "lurkar". :o). Fizeram vocês argumentarem e mostrarem que ela está errada. :)
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Giovanna
On Sunday, November 11, 2001 at 04:38:40

Message:
Putz, foi mal pelo excesso de posts.
Será que eles nunca vão concertar esse defeito de Internal error server?
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Me too
On Sunday, November 11, 2001 at 09:00:43

Message:
I wish they would fix that Internal error thing too, but you should know, for the future, that you can safely ignore that message when it appears. After you click Post, if you get an error message, just click Forum again (on the menu on the left),click the thread that you posted to, and then, if necessary, click your browser's refresh button a few times, until your post appears on the page. This has always worked for me.




RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Sunday, November 11, 2001 at 09:24:42

Message:
Giovana,

I read the commentary of Alberto Dines and if you notice it was originally published in Jornal do Brasil. Dione Rocha has the right to her opinions, but the reputation of this publication can be affected by the publication of erroneous, unsubstantiated, hateful opinion pieces. "The American Spectator" was a fanatical anti-Clinton tight wing publication that has effectively died (at least in terms of its conservative credentials) because they spent a lot of money on seeking out anti-Clinton information that was ultimately proved to be fabricated.

My argument is that it is entirely within her right to have her bobagem pura posted in this forum, but by publishing her babaquice as an article, the magazine puts its imprimatur on the piece.

Let's take an extreme view of this to illustrate my point: Do you think, for example, if I published a piece stating that all Brazilian women like to have sex with tourists simply because of the way they dress on the beach and during Carnaval, that the magazine is obliged to publish it? Of course not! They have the right to impose editorial control and insist that I prove my claims or refuse to publish it.

On the other hand, you can see men making generalizations in this forum about Brazilian women, generalizations that I know are untrue as I happen to be married to one who is the most kind, warm-hearted, generous person have ever met.
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Sickened
On Sunday, November 11, 2001 at 16:43:01

Message:
I would like to invite Dione Rocha, Frei Betto, Giovanna, and all the Brazilian journalists who think there is something positive about what happened on September 11, to come to NYC, take a look at Ground Zero, and better yet, SMELL it (two months later and it is still burning, and still puts out a sickening metalic odor). I would also like them to talk to my friend's wife, who lost her husband that day, and gave birth to his son 8 days later. I would like them to visit the fire halls, where entire companies were lost. (In fact, I dare them to express their ugly opinions to these men who lost their brothers that day.)

There is no justification for this act, and there is no excuse for anyone who thinks that there was.

I agree that everyone has a right to an opinion, and the freedom to express it, but you do expect an organization like Brazzil.com to excert some editorial control. Of course, they don't have the staff and resources of a real magazine, but simple basic common sense tells you the ideas found in the last issue are dispicable. What can we expect next from Brazzil.com, something along the lines of "Why Racism is Justified in Brazil - They Aren't Capable of Holding Real Jobs"? Perhaps "Too bad Hitler wasn't more succesful?" Perhaps "An afternoon with Nazi Fugitives in Southern Brazil."

Perhaps if Brazzil.com had put a disclaimer on the article, acknowledging the ugliness of its content, and advising us that it was publishing the article only in the interest exposing how some people are reacting to the events on 9/11, then they could perhaps be forgiven. But they did not, so we have to conclude that stand behind the article and it's contents.
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Sunday, November 11, 2001 at 18:12:51

Message:
Sickened,

In deference to Giovanna, she did say that she disagreed with Dione Rocha. She was defending the magazine's right to publish it. I think that she is wrong and I agree with you about Brazzil.com's abdication of its editorial responsibility.
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Sunday, November 11, 2001 at 18:42:16

Message:
The other thing that I find so odious about Dione Rocha's article is that she lacks the courage to defend her comments.

She's like a terrorist whose weapon is a keyboard, computer, modem, internet connection and a lot of ignorance.
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Monday, November 12, 2001 at 06:09:16

Message:
Here is a quote from Da Hammarskjold that Ms. Rocha might want to consider:

"You cannot play with the animal in you without becoming wholly animal, play with falsehood without forfeiting your right to truth, play with cruelty without losing your sensitivity of mind. He who wants to keep his garden tidy doesn't reserve a plot for weeds."

By providing a rationale for terror, Ms. Rocha has become wholly animal, by writing lies, she has forfeited her right to truth. I'm sure that her sensitivity of mind was lost a long time ago.

Eighty nations lost citizens at the WTC attacks. This was not just an attack against the USA, it was an attack by terrorists against the civilized world. By providing a rational for such attacks, Ms. Rocha, it's abundantly clear which side you are on.
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Monday, November 12, 2001 at 06:10:39

Message:
That quote was actually from Dag Hammarskjold, the former UN Secretary General.
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Diog
On Monday, November 12, 2001 at 13:32:26

Message:

>E qual seria, na sua opinião, "the nature" da revista?

Tendentious, and with questionable credibility, I’m afraid.

RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Monday, November 12, 2001 at 14:04:46

Message:
Not to mention the complete and total editorial bankruptcy.
RE: Poor Uninformed Dione Rocha
Posted by Randy Paul
On Tuesday, November 13, 2001 at 06:34:04

Message:
There is a good editorial by Jorge Viana, the Governor of the State of Acre in today's Miami Herald. You can find it at http://www.miami.com/herald/ He states in the editorial that "I can say that the people of Acre and the Amazon felt the horror of that day and share the sorrow of the American people."

Too bad this was lost on Dione Rocha. Several weeks have gone by since I wrote this coward and she still shows neither the courage of her convictions nor the strength of character to respond.

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