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Subject: Southern Brazil!


Posted by Observer
On Sunday, March 31, 2002 at 18:06:31

Message:
Dear all, I've visited Brazil several times, even worked there too. However, I've never explored any city or region south further than SP. Are there any places of interest? I'm curious about the German/Italian settlements, which, I've been told is situated in the south. I intend going inland. Advise and info concerning these areas will be greatly appreciated.

Tchau!

De Wet
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Monday, April 01, 2002 at 06:06:36

Message:
Curitiba, Ponta Grossa, Paraguaçu, Morretes and Vila Velha Park are not to be missed.

There is an extraordinary train trip from Curitiba to Paraguaçu. You'll love it!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Monday, April 01, 2002 at 06:57:25

Message:
That should be Paranaguá, not Paraguaçu. Sorry for the confusion.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Leite com frango
On Wednesday, April 03, 2002 at 17:51:20

Message:
I've always heard that the south is just like the American south - racist because of its German and Italian people. Is this true? I heard that southern Brazil is another country compared to the rest of Brazil. Is this true?
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by braslvr
On Wednesday, April 03, 2002 at 20:43:37

Message:
That's what I've heard too, but I haven't been to Southern Brasil yet to see for myself.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 09:14:47

Message:
Like your comments about prostitution, your comments are full of presumption.

Regarding the American South, it is not any more racist than any other part of the country. I lived in Alabama, Florida, Georgia and Tennessee as I was growing up. I have lived in New York since 1980 and have seen just as much racism here as I saw growing up there.

Secondly, the American South is not filled with Germans and Italians. If that is your criteria for racist mentality, then Chicago would be the most racist city in the US.

Southern Brazil was largely settled by German, Italian, Japanese, Spanish, Arabic, Polish and Ukrainian immigrants, most of whom were encouraged to come to Brazil after slavery was finally outlawed in 1888. In the case of the European immigrants, a number of historians believe that this immigration was encouraged in an effort to lighten the population, much as Argentina did the same.

I have seen a number of Afro-Brazilians and mixed race brazilians in Southern Brazil. I have seen no more nor no less racism than I have seen anywhere else in Brazil. There is plenty of racism in Brazil - I have seen plenty in Minas gerais, São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, other states I have visited and more subtler forms in Bahia and the Northeast. I have not seen anything in Southern Brazil that rises to the level of your stereotype of the Deep South.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Fernando
On Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 16:02:34

Message:
Well said Randy
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Observer
On Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 16:56:13

Message:
Randy, well said!!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Observer
On Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 16:56:15

Message:
Randy, well said!!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Pork_Chop_1
On Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 17:41:49

Message:
But, I have heard it said that southern Brazilian states were contemplating legislation to limit the number of poor 'nordestinos' who want to live there. Is this true? If so, that would certainly make them more racist than (current) Americans from 'Dixie' states.

Also, I saw the supermodel Gisele last year on the Kilborn show. Craid told her that he had been to Brazil, to Rio. With a haughty tone, and a frown on her face she replied, "Oh, I'm from the South." From this, I am beginning to suspect that Southern brazilians are indeed more racist to their darker skinned compatriots.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 18:07:21

Message:
Regarding Gisele, many Brazilians are defensive when it comes to Rio which may explain her reaction.

There was an attempt to limit intra-country immigration into Santa Catarina, but it didn't work to my knowledge. In any event, these are but two examples and it is grossly unfair to judge an entire region on this basis, don't you think? Having spent time there I just haven't seen it any more racist than anywhere else.

The man who introduced me to my wife is from Rio Grande do Sul and is ethnically a Palestinian Arab with strong Semitic features. He said that he didn't experience any first hand racism there. Also, a black soccer player who used to pay for Grémio in Porto Alegre (now playing for Paris St. Germain in France) is affectionately referred to as Ronaldo Gáucho.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Leite com frango
On Thursday, April 04, 2002 at 22:19:26

Message:
According to Randy, there could never be a possibility of any racism in this world. Randy, you gotta open your eyes man and stop trying to trying to find ways to debunk what is obvious. Just because there is a comparable example somewhere else in this world doesn't excuse a region for the way it is. Blah.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Friday, April 05, 2002 at 06:16:33

Message:
You must be El Hombre's more evil twin. I never said "there could never be a possibility of any racism in this world." My only objection was damning any group or region as racist on such thin evidence.

If you actually read this quote from one of my posts, you'd realize how thoroughly baseless your statement is:

>There is plenty of racism in Brazil - I have seen plenty in Minas gerais, São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, other states I have visited and more subtler forms in Bahia and the Northeast. I have not seen anything in Southern Brazil that rises to the level of your stereotype of the Deep South.

Of course, coming from someone who thinks that there are lots of prostitutes in Brazil simply because he spends his time in puterias, I shouldn't be surprised that you attempt to put words in my mouth.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by braslvr
On Friday, April 05, 2002 at 11:01:52

Message:
Hmm. It seems to me we've got a bit of an over-reaction here. I think frango com leite's question was a good one. Virtually every Brazilian I've spoken with says that there is much more racism in southern Brasil than in other parts of the country. I've heard that for years, more times than I can count. I don't know that it's true, but there must be some reason I keep hearing it every time I'm in Brasil. The reference to the deep south of America seems to be a fair one. While today it might not be much more "racist" than other parts of the US, it wasn't many years ago that it surely was.

Also, in re-reading the other thread about prostitution, I don't see where the poster said he spent any time in puterias. You don't have to visit a whorehouse in Brasil to know that there ARE many prostitutes there. I've never seen as many working girls in my life as I do any time I'm in Recife, and I've never been near a puteria.

All I'm getting at is maybe folks should't be so quick to jump all over a new poster just because he asks a "sensitive" question.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Pork_Chop_1
On Friday, April 05, 2002 at 11:12:11

Message:
Brazilians defensive of Rio? Defensive of the "cidade maravilhosa"? Why?

Anyways, your anecdotal 'evidence' of racism in Brazil, or lack thereof, is interesting, but would hardly qualify as conclusive evidense.

There is ample anectdotal evidence to the contrary. And I have read a lot of it.

To repeat, the notion that some politicians were even contemplating limits on poor (and darker skinned) northeasterners settling in the south is indicative of strong racial-tinged animosity in my opinion. I'm not condemming Brazilians for this, since they are human after all. But if such a thing were done in North America, such politicians would be ostracised and banned for life.

More anectdotal evidence. In a story I read recently, when electricity rationing was imposed in Brazil, it was learned that jurisdictions in Bahia and other northeastern states were abusing the quotas, and living it up. This brought out the rightous indignation of Southern brazilians, and it was reported that a great many of those polled were of the opinion that this was to be expected from there lazy, shiftless, and un-patriotic 'nordestinos' (eg. this is code for: this is to be expected from there dark skinned, inferior northeasterners).
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Leite com frango
On Friday, April 05, 2002 at 11:43:27

Message:
Absolutely correct. Randy Paul you are being too defensive. I understand that you are not denying anything, but you seem to be too defensive which is an interesting sign.

Listen, I have never been in a whorehouse and never been with a prostitute. So you are the one talking useless junk. You are just like the ultra liberal politicians who refuse to make a difference just because a problem is not indigenous.

Shalom!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Friday, April 05, 2002 at 12:42:12

Message:
First of all, regarding defensiveness about Rio, it has been my experience that many Brazilians who are not cariocas (including fluminenses – people from Rio de Janeiro state outside of Rio de Janeiro city) grow very weary of people who have visited Brazil and only visited Rio. That may explain Gisele’s response.


Secondly, I don’t know if you all are aware or not, but Brazil is divided into a few specific regions with states broken out as follows:

North – Amazonas, Amapá, Pará, Acre, Rondonia, Roraima
Northeast – Bahia, Sergipe, Alagoas, Pernambuco, Paraíba, Rio Grande do Norte, Ceará, Piauí, Maranhão
Center-West – Goias, Tocantins, Mato Grosso, Mato Grosso do Sul, Distrito Federal
Southeast – Espírito Santo, Minas Gerais, Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo
South – Paraná, Santa Catarina, Rio Grande do Sul

So when I discuss the South of Brazil it is only those three states to which I am referring. My contention is that in my experience, these states are no more racist than Minas Gerais, Rio, Brasília or São Paulo. The state of Rio Grande do Sul is a state that has strong ties to the leftist Worker’s Party (PT) in Brazil. The governor of the state and I believe the mayor of Porto Alegre are both major figures in the PT. Whatever you wish to say about the PT, I have never heard anyone refer to it as racist.

> To repeat, the notion that some politicians were even contemplating limits on poor (and darker skinned) northeasterners settling in the south is indicative of strong racial-tinged animosity in my opinion. I'm not condemming Brazilians for this, since they are human after all. But if such a thing were done in North America, such politicians would be ostracised and banned for life.

Jesse Helms made a career of this sort of thing as recently as five years ago. Raymond Flynn, the former mayor of Boston was an ardent foe of busing to end segregation in one of the most thoroughly segregated cities in the US. To be accurate, the only thing that bans someone from political office in the US is a felony conviction – and not always then as Marion Barry has proven.

The President of Brazil has referred to his own partial Afro-Brazilian ancestry by commenting that he has “one foot in the kitchen.” He’s from São Paulo and while in exile in the US taught at UC Berkeley. My personal feeling – and it is based on extensive travel in the country and a great deal of time spent there – is that, much like the US, there are racist people throughout Brazil, certainly in the eleven states and the Distrito Federal that I have visited. It manifests itself in many ways, some overt and some much subtler. There are also, much like in the US, people throughout the country who are not racist and form their opinions about individuals and not ethnic groups. Fortunately, in both countries I have seen many, many more of the latter and as time goes by fewer and fewer of the former.

What I objected to was the characterization of any one region as racist, whether it’s the South of Brazil and the Deep South of the US. That, in my opinion, is pernicious nonsense.

Regarding the question of prostitution, this individual mentioned that he had talked to prostitutes. Given that their time is valuable to them, I am assuming that they didn’t talk to them for free. As far as seeing more prostitutes in Recife than anywhere else, evidently you haven’t been to Amsterdam and Germany, where the practice is legal. In Amsterdam, they nearly opened a brothel at the airport.

>Listen, I have never been in a whorehouse and never been with a prostitute.

Then explain this quote:

>I've spoken to some and realized that their families do not know about what they do. The funny thing was that so many foreigners were getting together with these women and having relationships with them. Well I dont blame them, Brazilian women are so nice, even if they are prostitutes.

So I suppose that they just talk to you out of the kindness of their hearts . . .

>So you are the one talking useless junk. You are just like the ultra liberal politicians who refuse to make a difference just because a problem is not indigenous.

That's a great non-sequitor.



RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy
On Friday, April 05, 2002 at 13:25:30

Message:
Leite - please quit trying to argue against Randy Paul. Your points are such generalized nonsense and you completely miss the points that RP is making! Your thread in Famine=Genocide proves how you are just looking for an argument. Randy Paul, parabens! Excellent points and I agree with you that racism is everywhere and for people to generalize about it being worse in one place than another is ridiculous.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Friday, April 05, 2002 at 14:20:40

Message:
Thanks, Randy. I wouldn't even have gone to the Famine=Genocide thread if you hadn't pointed that out to me.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by O Homem
On Friday, April 05, 2002 at 15:54:15

Message:

>You must be El Hombre's more evil twin.

Actually, when you look at it closely, it seems more and more likely that Hombre springs from a litter of evil quadruplets. It's not unusual for a forum troll to wear many hats, especially when he has many heads. I suppose this is nature's way of compensating for the fact that he hasn't one brain among them.

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by braslvr
On Friday, April 05, 2002 at 18:25:12

Message:
Randy Paul, I'm not here to argue with you, and certainly not to attack you. That is not my style.
Last time I checked, prostitution was legal in Brazil. If not technically legal(a possibility), certainly the authorities do NOTHING to enforce any such laws. Isn't there even an "age of consent" law geared especially towards prostitution? One quick stroll down Rua Agusta in Sao Paulo should clear up any confusion about whether or not it is openly allowed. There are dozens of Sauna Mistas and American Bars(read whorehouses) in the span of a few blocks.

I've heard Amsterdam has a large red light district, but it is but one city in a tiny country. Germany has never to my knowledge been known as having large numbers of prostitutes, and indeed on my two visits there, I did not see any.
It is widely reported however that percentage wise, Germans are the #1 consumers of sex-tourism in Brazil, followed by the Japanese.

If you are an American/European in Recife and are out at night almost anywhere in the city, you will be constantly solicted. Restaurants, bars, walking down the sidewalk, in your 4 star hotel lobby, while shopping, etc, etc. It's prevalent in Fortaleza and Natal also to a lessor degree.

Anyway, back to southern Brasil. Can you explain why so many Brazilians are adament that the people in the southern states are extremely racist toward the Nordestinos? As I said before, I've never been to southern Brazil, and from what I've heard and read, I don't have much desire to.(not only because of the race issue)
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Sunday, April 07, 2002 at 18:05:11

Message:
I lived in Germany for three years and trust me, there was a thriving prostitution business. There was a chain of brothels called the Annabella Haus and their slogan was "Sex Mit Herz" [Sex With Heart]. They had a branch not far from where I lived and I used to pass it regularly while riding my bike.

On Pariser Strasse in Kaiserslautern (which I traveled on every day on my way to school) I cannot remember a day except when the weather was abominable that this street was not lined with prostitutes.

As far as Recife goes, I wasn't propositioned once there, but I don't suppose I would be propositioned as I was traveling with my wife. I did, however, see a number of public service posters pleading with people not to indulge in sex-tourism. I have no doubt that in just about any major city anywhere in any secular country [please note my qulaification - I could not imagine people being propositioned in Riyadh] it is quite possible to be propositioned by hookers. I have seen them in Las Vegas, Nashville, Atlanta, New Orleans, Los Angeles, Portland, OR, Baltimore, Washington, DC, Seattle, San Francisco, Oakland, San Diego, Dallas, Phoenix and Denver. I would never think that "it seemed like as if SO SO SO many women there [the USA] are prostitutes."

This goes to the heart of why I found this cretin's (Leite com Frango) comments so objectionable. That and statements such as this one that Leite com Frango put in his first post:

"Even the most innocent-looking ones are probably whores."

How can any decent human being make such a generalization? That's vile and indefensible.

Again, to generalize about racism is truly a loser's game. Of course there are racist people in the south of Brazil. There are racists in the Northeast as well, and probably just about everywhere else. My wife, who is from Minas Gerais, told me that in addition to the attemptto limit Nordestinos immigrating into Santa Catarina, there were rallies in the state against this legislation.

Rio Grande Sul had a strong separatist movement for some time - they simply wanted to secede from Brazil. Bear in mind, that Uruguay used to be part of Brazil and perhaps this desire to secede is related to Uruguay's proximity to Rio Grande do Sul. The observation that many Brazilians are adamant that the people in the southern states are extremely racist toward the Nordestinos, is indicative of a stereotype that "those people are racist." Stereotyping is the father of racism. Stereotyping, in my experience, is a sign of intellectual laziness: rather than doing the hard work of visiting the region and spending time there, getting acquainted with the residents, culture, etc., it is far easier to simply write the area off as completely and iredeemably racist.

I am a white American who grew up in the Deep South and I have faced stereotyping. I moved to New York from Alabama and one of the first things I encountered was (and to this day still encounter) "How come you don't have an accent?" I dated an African-American woman from Belize for a while and some of my New York friends were worried about what my parents would think. I certainly wasn't and told my parents about her. Their only concern was my happiness. Some of those same friends also told me that their parents would be very upset if they dated someone who was not the same race. What does that tell you about stereotypes?

I have never understood why some of my more liberal friends have no qualms about using the term redneck to describe someone. It is a pernicious stereotype and that, in my opinion, is where all hate and racism springs from.

BTW, if you bypass a visit to the South of Brazil, you're only depriving yourself. The natural beauty is breathtaking, as it is throughout everywhere I have been in Brazil and the culture, while different, is no less fascinating.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by braslvr
On Sunday, April 07, 2002 at 21:15:23

Message:
"Even the most innocent-looking ones are probably whores."

I somehow missed that line. I see your point.

I agree of course that there are hookers virtually everywhere in the world. My first taste of Brazil was a business trip hastily arranged with 2 days notice, and it started in Recife. I was shocked at the sheer numbers, the young ages, and the brazen attitude of the prostitutes there. After 2 days, my work took me to a small farming town near Natal. I saw zero prostitution there. After 3 weeks, I returned to Recife. I was there for 3 weeks that time and returned several more times. Never with a woman. Sometimes alone and sometimes with other co-workers. All I can say is it was shocking. Another interesting thing about that first trip to Recife. It was the only time I've ever been taken advantage of, or been swindled in Brazil in all my trips, and it was by English speaking German ex-pats. Enough reason for me to start learning the language...FAST. (Not for me to start hating Germans LOL)

Thanks for your response to the racism question. I understand your points, but I'm still convinced that racism and predjudice are much more common in some places than others.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Tuesday, April 09, 2002 at 23:30:37

Message:
>Thanks for your response to the racism question. I understand your points, but I'm still convinced that racism and predjudice are much more common in some places than others.

I'm in the Australian Army Reserve. One of the units I was in was an officer-training unit. In that we had not only two Sikhs with their turbans but a guy who was from India and still had a very strong Indian accent. Now having lived in England for a number of years, I know that in the British army the situation would be rather different. Those three guys would have been beaten up so bad by their fellow soldiers that they would have had to leave, for having the temerity to not only were turbans but (for one of them) to serve in a nation's army with a strong foreign accent! Of course in Australia nobody would have thought anything of these Sikhs -- nothing. And Officer Cadet Roy's strong Indian accent? Sure, it sounded funny and we laughed at it, 'cos Indian accents tend to be quite comical, but he was a good-natured fellow who made fun of it himself. Besides, there would have never been any malice in the sniggering because it was good natured.

Also there are often things you see here that you know would definitely never be tolerated in England. For example, up in New South Wales, a character in one of the TV shows on sports is a man who's darkened his skin with paint and dresses up as an Indian Sahib and affects and Indian accent and acts foolishly while doing this. Everybody laughs. We have Indians here and they take no offence. Why? Because no offence is meant. But one couldn't imagine the same thing happening in England, because it would be happening in an environment where the Indians and Pakistanis are often despised and discriminated against.

A lot of the things and commnents said over here in Australia to me and about me would definitely be assumed by many people overseas to be offensive. But of course here they would carry no offence since no offence is meant. Calling me a "blacky" in Latin America is not considered offensive but affectionate. Saying the same thing in the United States or England is automatically assumed to be pejorative. In Australia it would not be considered derogatory by the Aussies themselves but they are a bit ambivalent, as they watch a lot of American TV shows and movies and get the idea that "blackness" is considered a bad thing and offenisve

>I dated an African-American woman from Belize for a while and some of my New York friends were worried about what my parents would think

Well I couldn't imagine an Aussie/Kiwi wondering the same thing (with the sole exception of Aboriginals in Australia). So is there a possibility that some places are different regarding "racism" than others?


RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by braslvr
On Tuesday, April 09, 2002 at 23:50:27

Message:
El Hombre, Whatever you were trying to say after you quoted me makes no sense. It would help if you try to make your point in 100 or so words or less. This is only a message board.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002 at 00:15:45

Message:
>El Hombre, Whatever you were trying to say after you quoted me makes no sense. It would help if you try to make your point in 100 or so words or less. This is only a message board.

I see. You must be an American. I'll explain.

You said that -- and I quote -- "but I'm still convinced that racism and predjudice are much more common in some places than others". I therefore endeavoured to give evidence of this, where some people are more "racist", or unfairly discriminating, than others. Get it? Do I have to write two hundred words for you to understand something simple? Believe me, if I was dealing with any other nationality other than American, I wouldn't have to write so much; I could be concise and be immediately understood.

>So is there a possibility that some places are different regarding "racism" than others?

Notice I finished with this quotation of mine? And you STILL didn't get it! Ay caramba!



RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Zé Sabedoria
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002 at 06:33:11

Message:
>Notice I finished with this quotation of mine? And you STILL didn't get it! Ay caramba!

Alguém peidou aqui? Tem cheiro de pum ou talvez, cheiro de bosta . . .
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by O Homem
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002 at 07:23:35

Message:

>Calling me a "blacky" in Latin America is not considered offensive but affectionate.

You probably think the same thing everywhere they call you "dummy," too.

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Zé Sabedoria
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002 at 09:04:09

Message:
Pois é. Talvez ele acha é carinhoso quando chamar ele Zé BURRÃO.

Que você acha, El Hombre, aka Zé BURRÃO, Zé IDIOTA, Zé MENINHÃO!!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002 at 09:46:49

Message:
>Calling me a "blacky" in Latin America is not considered offensive but affectionate.

The truly asinine part of that statement is that in my experience in extensive travels in Latin America I have never, ever heard Afro-Latino call a white person "whitey."

>Alguém peidou aqui? Tem cheiro de pum ou talvez, cheiro de bosta . . .

LOL!! Cade vez El Hombre escreveu alguma coisa, eu sempre cheiro gas. Realmente você tem razão!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002 at 22:23:42

Message:
>You probably think the same thing everywhere they call you "dummy," too.

Isn't it strange that you Americans can only see that as being derogatory. Funny that. Says a lot about how you guys view things.


RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Wednesday, April 10, 2002 at 22:45:44

Message:
Alguem aqui fala ingles?

>I dated an African-American woman from Belize for a while and some of my New York friends were worried about what my parents would think.

Funny, but I doubt you'd find an Aussie/Kiwi who'd "worry about what your parents would think". Why would they? What on earth WOULD your parents think -- that you married a monster? If you'd married her, Aussies/Kiwis wouldn't have seen it as intermarriage (except when getting technical) but simply as marriage -- a bloke marrying a sheila. But then of course we all know that people think differently around the world (as braslvre tried to point out), even within the Anglo-Saxon world itself.




RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Zé Sabedoria
On Thursday, April 11, 2002 at 06:12:41

Message:
>Funny, but I doubt you'd find an Aussie/Kiwi who'd "worry about what your parents would think". Why would they? What on earth WOULD your parents think -- that you married a monster? If you'd married her, Aussies/Kiwis wouldn't have seen it as intermarriage (except when getting technical) but simply as marriage -- a bloke marrying a sheila. But then of course we all know that people think differently around the world (as braslvre tried to point out), even within the Anglo-Saxon world itself.

Nossa Senhora! Alguém soltou um peido tão fedorento!!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Zé Sabedoria
On Thursday, April 11, 2002 at 12:06:06

Message:
>Alguem aqui fala ingles?

Puta que pariu! Você soltou outro pum? Vixe Maria!!

Todo mundo fala inglês, mas você é o a única pessoa que fala burrice, Zé BURRÃO!!!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Friday, April 12, 2002 at 22:33:04

Message:
>Puta que pariu! Você soltou outro pum? Vixe Maria!!

>Todo mundo fala inglês, mas você é o a única pessoa que fala burrice, Zé BURRÃO!!!

Quit hiding behind your Portuguese, ya yella-bellied coward!

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Saturday, April 13, 2002 at 00:21:16

Message:
>...in my experience in extensive travels in Latin America I have never, ever heard Afro-Latino call a white person "whitey."

Can't say I have, either. But surely you know of the glorification of the blonde woman in those parts of the world. Noticing a blonde woman and indicating one's approval of her seemed to me to be the standard operating procedure for men in Latin America. The point I'm trying to make is that the men there thought so positively of the "rubia" that they brought attention to the source of their enchantment -- her blondeness. In other words, referring to her blondeness is not meant to be derogatory but rather laudatory. The same goes for calling someone a "negrito" or "chocolate". The only reason they don't say the same thing here in Australia and New Zealand is because of the ambivalence resulting from their kinship with the Anglo-Saxons in the rest of the world, who give the impression that any reference to a person's "negritoness" is, ipso facto, insulting, reminding that person of something that is unenviable and therefore to be considered derogatory. But of course most men in the Antipodes, especially libertines, wouldn't consider being a negrito unenviable, due largely to the courting proclivities of Antipodean women.

So it is telling that someone's calling me "negrito" is in your minds tantamount to his calling me "dummy".

Hmmm.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by O Homem
On Saturday, April 13, 2002 at 06:32:24

Message:

My only experience with the term "negrito," other than with the dictionary, is when a gentleman of the Mexican persuasion translated it as "leetle neeger." He didn't mean it affectionately in either language. Wouldn't you rather be a dummy, Dummy? :-)




RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Zé Sabedoria
On Saturday, April 13, 2002 at 10:04:27

Message:
>Quit hiding behind your Portuguese, ya yella-bellied coward!

Mostrei meu endereço de e-mail cade vez escrevi alguma coisa. Zé Burrão, você quase nunca mostrou seu. Quem, realmente é o covarde?

Se voce não entender português, a culpa é sua. Tira sua cabeça de seu cu e aprende, Zé BURRÃO, Zé MAL EDUCADO!!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Observer
On Saturday, April 13, 2002 at 10:32:32

Message:
I started this discussion/question, surely I just wanted info on Southern Brazil, I'm rather shocked as to see the pathetic "biting and bitching" surrounding a normal question! What's next? To say the least I enjoyed "Observing" the dicussion flowing through!

Thanking you all for your input!

Muito obrigado!

Greetings from South Africa!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Observer
On Saturday, April 13, 2002 at 10:32:35

Message:
I started this discussion/question, surely I just wanted info on Southern Brazil, I'm rather shocked as to see the pathetic "biting and bitching" surrounding a normal question! What's next? To say the least I enjoyed "Observing" the dicussion flowing through!

Thanking you all for your input!

Muito obrigado!

Greetings from South Africa!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Sunday, April 14, 2002 at 17:48:50

Message:
Observer,

I agree. On the other hand if you had seen the miasma of windy and asinine comments posted by "El Hombre" on the thread he started, it wouldn't have surprised you.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Tuesday, April 16, 2002 at 00:09:28

Message:
>I started this discussion/question, surely I just wanted info on Southern Brazil, I'm rather shocked as to see the pathetic "biting and bitching" surrounding a normal question! What's next? To say the least I enjoyed "Observing" the dicussion flowing through!

I do seem to remember someone asking about the possible difference in mindset between northern and southern Brazilians. By comparing the Antipodes with the rest of the Anglo-Sazon world, I endeavoured to show that if such differences in mindset exist within the Anglo-Saxon world, then doesn't it make it all the more probable that people as different from each other as the Germans and Latins should evidence differences in mindset within the same country, Brazil?

As for the "biting and bitching", I think that comment is less directed at me as it is at the apopleptic and foaming Sabedoria, who's too much of a coward to deal with me in English.

>My only experience with the term "negrito," other than with the dictionary, is when a gentleman of the Mexican persuasion translated it as "leetle neeger." He didn't mean it affectionately in either language. Wouldn't you rather be a dummy, Dummy? :-)

I have a friend at Army who was born here but is of Argentinian descent. She is what y'all would describe as "white" (she's olive-skinned; over here in Australia we'd call her a wog). She mentioned to me that as a little girl her grandmother used to affectionately call her "negrita", a bit like calling her "little princess", I suppose. But it seems now that all along her loving grandmother was calling her "dummy"!

It seems some things are just too difficult for the American mind to assimilate. People DO think differently around the world, you know. Just try to comprehend that.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Tuesday, April 16, 2002 at 01:20:55

Message:
>Mostrei meu endereço de e-mail cade vez escrevi alguma coisa. Zé Burrão, você quase nunca mostrou seu. Quem, realmente é o covarde?

And what would I have gotten with my e-mail displayed, Barbie? Just you pestering me with your Portuguese and not having the Sick of America-type guts to come out and fight like a man. Besides, I'm not 100% sure you're not just one of the regulars who's gone to the trouble of setting up an address just to complete the disguise. Pathetic.

Se voce não entender português, a culpa é sua. Tira sua cabeça de seu cu e aprende, Zé BURRÃO, Zé MAL EDUCADO!!

I could ask you the same thing. Are you learning English, the international language? If you know it, why don't you speak it, like 99% of everyone else on this forum? And yes, I am learning Portuguese -- and quite rapidly, thank you very much. In fact, when I'm fluent I'll have the distinguishing mark of speaking it WITHOUT an accent. When I learn a language, you see, it is my policy that once fluent, the natives should be able to mistake me for one of them. I bet anyone could tell that you're a foreigner from a mile away with your Portuguese, Barbie.

Tchau.

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Tuesday, April 16, 2002 at 04:29:07

Message:
>Mostrei meu endereço de e-mail cade vez escrevi alguma coisa.

Did I hear something...?
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Zé Sabedoria
On Tuesday, April 16, 2002 at 06:14:38

Message:
>I could ask you the same thing. Are you learning English, the international language? If you know it, why don't you speak it, like 99% of everyone else on this forum?

Read this, Zé BURRÃO. It's on the opening page of this forum:

"You are welcome and encouraged to start new threads. Portuguese, English, or any other language are welcome."

If you want to be a lazy sheep, because you don't want to communicate in the official language of the country you claim to be so expert in feel free.

>And yes, I am learning Portuguese -- and quite rapidly, thank you very much. In fact, when I'm fluent I'll have the distinguishing mark of speaking it WITHOUT an accent. When I learn a language, you see, it is my policy that once fluent, the natives should be able to mistake me for one of them. I bet anyone could tell that you're a foreigner from a mile away with your Portuguese, Barbie.

Mais puns ainda!! Abre janela, pelo amor de Deus!!

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by O Homem
On Tuesday, April 16, 2002 at 19:54:40

Message:
>She mentioned to me that as a little girl her grandmother used to affectionately call her "negrita"

Too bad granny and your friend aren’t Brazilian. Granny would have had her choice of no fewer than 136 shades of affection with which to address her granddaughter, "culturally" speaking, of course. :-)

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Tuesday, April 16, 2002 at 22:53:10

Message:
>Too bad granny and your friend aren’t Brazilian. Granny would have had her choice of no fewer than 136 shades of affection with which to address her granddaughter, "culturally" speaking, of course. :-)

But I do think "negrita" (or "neguinya"?) is pretty specific and doesn't refer to, say, a "mulata" or "cafe com leite", don't you think?
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Tuesday, April 16, 2002 at 23:25:10

Message:
>If you want to be a lazy sheep, because you don't want to communicate in the official language of the country you claim to be so expert in feel free.

As I said, ninety-nine percent of those who contribute to this forum do so in English. And I never claimed to be an expert on Brazil. All I was doing was demonstrating to y'all that people in the world have different mindsets, and how they think determines how they act.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Zé Sabedoria
On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 at 19:29:41

Message:
>As I said, ninety-nine percent of those who contribute to this forum do so in English. And I never claimed to be an expert on Brazil. All I was doing was demonstrating to y'all that people in the world have different mindsets, and how they think determines how they act.

[BIG YAWN]
[BOCEJÃO]
[BOSTEZON]
[SBADIGLIO]
[BÂILLEMENT]
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Nadelstich
On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 at 22:30:14

Message:

>She mentioned to me that as a little girl her grandmother used to affectionately call her "negrita"

Touching tale that, regardless of the scanty prospect of its veracity. It puts me in mind of the story of Adolf Eichmann, whose homicidal co-workers were possessed of the endearing habit of referring to him affectionately as "the Jew." Misunderstood culturalists, to be sure.

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Thursday, April 18, 2002 at 22:26:32

Message:
>regardless of the scanty prospect of its veracity.

Why so hard to believe? I think it's a resounding testament of the the lamentable American mindset when it comes to such things that for me to relate something like that is almost inconceivable to you guys.

But then again, it's quite understandable. People naturally are proud of what they base their sense of identity on, and so are correspondingly derisive of and look down upon (to get into some leftist academic parlance) what constitutes "the Other" in their scheme of things.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Nadelstich
On Friday, April 19, 2002 at 22:44:34

Message:

You may wish to reconsider placing the blame for my opinions on the "American" mindset. : ) : ) : ) Yet another in a long list of examples of your need to make a point – or find one – at any price. Which is to say, another illustration of the persistence of your dishonesty, and one among the innumerable reasons for which the term "Hombre’s veracity" will forever be an oxymoron. In short, I have considered your affirmation and found it not credible, because it is yours.


RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 at 00:20:09

Message:
>I have considered your affirmation and found it not credible, BECAUSE IT IS YOURS. [my emphasis]

Please, please...don't shoot the messenger!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by O Homem
On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 at 07:06:16

Message:

>Please, please...don't shoot the messenger!

Right, put a stake through its heart -- More effective. Hombre never posts in daylight. : )

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Tuesday, April 23, 2002 at 23:22:02

Message:
You'd rather a head-in-the sand reality than hear the bad news, eh?

And why all the smileys all of a sudden? I've lived in Australia too long to be over-sensitive to such slips as you made earlier, so quit with the grovelling backtracking already!

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by O Homem
On Wednesday, April 24, 2002 at 07:25:05

Message:

>And why all the smileys all of a sudden?

Don’t fret, frango sem cabeça. I’m not laughing with you. I’m laughing AT you.:))))

>I've lived in Australia too long to be over-sensitive to such slips as you made earlier, . . .

Oh? Gee, that's too bad. I thought you proclaimed the "cultural" Australians a people that welcomes both your person and theories with open arms. :)))))

Clickety-click-click-click . . . : ))))


RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Wednesday, April 24, 2002 at 22:24:31

Message:
>Oh? Gee, that's too bad. I thought you proclaimed the "cultural" Australians a people that welcomes both your person and theories with open arms. :)))))

In standard American fashion, you completely missed what I was alluding to. Ay caramba!


RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Nadelstich
On Wednesday, April 24, 2002 at 23:09:42

Message:
>In standard American fashion, you completely missed what I was alluding to.

One wonders what it is the Americans have done to deserve all the luck. "God shed his grace on thee" indeed.

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Thursday, April 25, 2002 at 00:49:27

Message:
>One wonders what it is the Americans have done to deserve all the luck. "God shed his grace on thee" indeed.

Oh diddums, Nady-boy. Since you mentioned God, here's some Biblical quotations to help you understand the predicament in which Americans often find themselves:

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty" (1Cr 1:27)

Americans can only be understood in light of this passage, revealing indubitably God's providence and omnipotent will, much to the uncomprehending chagrin of the benighted Europeans.

"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Luke 12.48)

If all the attention and scrutiny upsets you, become a Canadian :)
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Thursday, April 25, 2002 at 02:15:35

Message:
>I thought you proclaimed the "cultural" Australians a people that welcomes both your person and theories with open arms. :)))))

You really aren't listening, are you? The Australians are Anglo-Saxons. How, then, can they be "cultural"? It's just that their nature precludes unfair discrimination, but they're still racial people. Pay attention!

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Zé Sabedoria
On Thursday, April 25, 2002 at 06:12:58

Message:
El Hombre:

Vá tomar no cu, ZE BURRÃO, ZE BOBÃO!!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by O Homem
On Thursday, April 25, 2002 at 15:32:22

Message:

"And God hath chosen the Dummy and filleth him full of strawberries and prunes. And God sendeth him thus down to the people, there to confound himself, to the everlasting mirth and merriment of all who behold, that they may live and die laughing." (Homem 1:1)

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Sick
On Thursday, April 25, 2002 at 17:06:59

Message:
I guess the discrimination experienced by the Aborigines of Australia is "fair".
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Sick
On Thursday, April 25, 2002 at 17:08:58

Message:
HAHAHAHA Homem kudos!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Saturday, April 27, 2002 at 01:21:14

Message:
>I guess the discrimination experienced by the Aborigines of Australia is "fair".

Dunno. We don't have many Aboriginals down south, and barely any in Melbourne where I live (they are so rare here that I still turn around to have another look when I walk past one). So I can't really comment on them and their situation. But Australia has plenty of dark-skinned people, and they're not discriminated against: they come here, work hard and prosper. So the Aboriginals' being discriminated against can't be on account of their skin colour. Also, one has to take into account the bored liberal media in this country. This is a quiet, peaceful, prosperous country. Nothing much happens here. So the media can get a bit bored. They see all their liberal buddies around the world getting all the action and they want a piece of it too. Therefore, what better than to have a tiny indigenous population that has historically been trampled on, which has the requisite dark skin, who are captive recipients of excessive beau geste and are just sitting there ready for championing! The liberal media -- thoroughly bored over here, I remind you -- therefore engage in hyperbole and exaggeration over a prolonged period of time, assiduously nurturing their mini American civil-rights project, their efforts occasionally interrupted by big-time events like September 11, but nevertheless remaining in the background waiting to be summoned during eventless periods. And man did the media have a ball with Pauline Hanson! Talk about blown out of proportion! Here they finally had their chance to be liberals and panick, splash around in hyperbole and save humanity. Gee, they should first go and live in another country before they start lamenting about the racism in Australia! Sheesh.

So there you go: bored Aussie media liberals looking for some cause to manufacture and champion. I'm sure this is the case.

It's also, to add some more, like what I've heard about New Zealand from some Kiwis. Ever since the British and the Maoris signed their treaty, the two groups, Maori and Pakeha ("whites"), have lived happily together. But then came the large immigration to New Zealand of Polynesians. Seeing such a happy situation to be contrary to how the script should run, they started there own version of the American civil rights, agitating for rights they already have, complaining about manufactured problems, and just being a nuisance for its own sake, just so that they can immitate and aspire to be like their African-American "brutherz".

And now, come to think of it, we have that silly and risible "black"-identity movement in Brazil, of all places! The extent to which people will go to imitate those so-called African-Americans, I tell you...

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Sick
On Saturday, April 27, 2002 at 05:47:59

Message:
Interesting. I had seen mention in an article that Australia ended it's whites only immigration policy in 1966. It was in an article about Asian immigrants experiencing racism, or claiming too. It was in Time magazine, so take that for what it's worth. I won't vouch for Time's accuracy.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Saturday, April 27, 2002 at 06:01:35

Message:
As I said, all this "racism" business is all relative. By world standards there's barely any discrimination here. I could give you many stories of comparisons between here and England. Those same Asian countries from which those Asians came would be infinitely worse than Australia. The problem is with their being here in the first place in large numbers, as Australians are a racial people. But once they're here, and especially if they assimilate, they certainly won't be discriminated against.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by John
On Monday, April 29, 2002 at 18:26:09

Message:
Australians are a bunch of racist creeps, period. Look what they did to the aborigines. But since they are white noone makes a big deal out of it. But the truth is: AUSTRALIANS ARE RACIST DECENDENTS OF CRIMINALS.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Tuesday, April 30, 2002 at 01:22:17

Message:
>Australians are a bunch of racist creeps, period.

Campared to whom? Compared to you guys? Ha!

>Look what they did to the aborigines

As I said, I'm not properly qualified to speak on the Aboriginal question because I've rarely encountered them and therefore don't know how they're treated. We do, however, have other dark-skinned people and they're never discriminated against. It is possible that the Aboriginals are the only people who are actually discriminated against in Australia (together with the English) but, as I said, I'm a bit skeptical and suspect liberal media hyperpole. I just don't see why the Indians and Pakistanis, the Polynesians and Maoris, the Papua New Guinians and the Fijians aren't discriminated against -- but the Aboriginals are. It just sounds a bit fishy to me; but then again, it may be possible. Admittedly, Aboriginals are held in very low regard here in Australia, but that might be of their own doing (they have severe problems with alcohol abuse within their community) rather than because of anything the Aussies have done to them, since the same isn't the case for the other dark-skinned people.

>...DECENDENTS OF CRIMINALS.

Oh hush! Of today's Australian population, a quarter (like yours truly) is born overseas. There has always been immigration to Australia, even before the larger-scale immigration that has been occuring since the Sixties. Any descendants of the convicts would in reality constitute a miniscule percentage.

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Tuesday, April 30, 2002 at 10:29:38

Message:
>We do, however, have other dark-skinned people and they're never discriminated against

Never ever? I guess you now feel on top of everything else that you are omniscient and omnipresent, thus you are capable of making a statement like that. Perhaps you might want to qualify the statement by writing these three words and placing it after and in the above sentence: "in my experience"
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Wednesday, May 01, 2002 at 02:54:05

Message:
>Never ever?

Never ever. Maybe by recent immigrants who haven't had the chance to become fully aware of the local mindset, or maybe by immigrants who adamantly refuse to change; but I think this is rare. Besides, such behaviour is very much looked down upon here in the Antipodes, not so much because of some super niceness on the part of the people here but because a significant Australian characteristic and value is that of fairmindedness, and so those who don't abide by these Australian values will be ostracised. Unfair discrimination is incompatible with the Australian mindset.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Aborigine
On Thursday, May 02, 2002 at 10:05:24

Message:

What a gas bag.

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Saturday, May 04, 2002 at 01:42:00

Message:
I reiterate: never ever!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by O Homem
On Saturday, May 04, 2002 at 08:33:05

Message:

>I reiterate: never ever!

Of course, you reiterate, Hombre, of course. You are forever caught in an iteration loop.

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Sunday, May 05, 2002 at 18:00:49

Message:
>Never ever. Maybe by recent immigrants who haven't had the chance to become fully aware of the local mindset, or maybe by immigrants who adamantly refuse to change; but I think this is rare. Besides, such behaviour is very much looked down upon here in the Antipodes, not so much because of some super niceness on the part of the people here but because a significant Australian characteristic and value is that of fairmindedness, and so those who don't abide by these Australian values will be ostracised. Unfair discrimination is incompatible with the Australian mindset.

What a gas bag is right. You cannot be in all places at all times despite your delusions of omnipotence. Accordingly, you cannot claim to say that these people have never ever been discriminated against.

>Of course, you reiterate, Hombre, of course. You are forever caught in an iteration loop.

Actually, O Homem, I think that he is just plain loopy.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Sunday, May 05, 2002 at 22:14:49

Message:
>You cannot be in all places at all times despite your delusions of omnipotence. Accordingly, you cannot claim to say that these people have never ever been discriminated against.

And neither are you omnipresent and omniscient, Mr Paul, and so you can't say with any authority that I'm wrong. Besides, it's been you all along who's been maintaining quite avidly -- though you haven't been everywhere -- that all the places around the world are the same regarding a certain mindset we've been talking about. That, in a word, is hypocrisy. Before you start complaining about the speck in my eye, have a look at the plank in yours!
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Monday, May 06, 2002 at 06:14:02

Message:
>And neither are you omnipresent and omniscient, Mr Paul, and so you can't say with any authority that I'm wrong.

If you knew anything about reasoning, you would know that it is virtually impossible to prove a negative (i.e. my proving that you are wrong). As you made the claim that these people have NEVER been discriminated against, it is up to you to prove your claim. Indeed, by that same reasoning on your part (or lack of same) I can say that they have been discriminated against with as much authority as you can say they haven't.

>Besides, it's been you all along who's been maintaining quite avidly -- though you haven't been everywhere -- that all the places around the world are the same regarding a certain mindset we've been talking about.

I've never said that. What I have said is that based on my extensive experience in dealing with latin cultures you are simply mistaken in commenting that race does enter into the latin mindset. I also think (please note that I qualify my statements, you should consider doing the same) that you are comments are sodden with stereotypes that are fascistic.


RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Monday, May 06, 2002 at 23:18:20

Message:
>I can say that they have been discriminated against with as much authority as you can say they haven't.

Wait up! You've never been to Australia! I'm the one who lives here. I know how they think.

So I suppose, using your logic, I can say that the Americans would have quite readily engaged in the same genocide the Germans did had they had the opportunity and that it is now your responisibility to prove me wrong? Is that the kind of reasoning you condone?

Very well. You, Mr Paul, are a wife-basher. Prove me wrong.

You see, Mr Paul, although I haven't met with every Australian out there, I can quite safely declare that Australians do not engage in the practice of Suttee. And in the same way, I can quite safely say that Australians do not discriminate against the other dark-skinned people here.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Tuesday, May 07, 2002 at 09:09:59

Message:
No, if you make the statement that these people have NEVER EVER been discriminated against, it is up to you to prove it. If you make the claim that I am a wife beater it is up to you prove it.

>You see, Mr Paul, although I haven't met with every Australian out there, I can quite safely declare that Australians do not engage in the practice of Suttee. And in the same way, I can quite safely say that Australians do not discriminate against the other dark-skinned people here.

Apples and oranges. All you have to say is that in your experience these people have not been discriminated against or that you have seen no such discrimination.

Have you ever considered that the reason why the vast, overwhelming majority of posters on these forums find your comments to be so asinine, so execrable, so odious, so puerile, so contemptible is that you consistently present your opinion as absolute, unimpeachable fact.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Tuesday, May 07, 2002 at 23:06:16

Message:
>No, if you make the statement that these people have NEVER EVER been discriminated against, it is up to you to prove it.

On the contrary. You're assuming discrimination against dark-skinned people is normative. Why on EARTH should Australians want to discriminate against someone just because his skin is dark? The onus is very much on YOU to prove why you should assume this sort of behaviour to be the case amongst people whom you've never met and who actual find such an insinuation very insulting, necessarily impugning their committment to the concept of "fair go" which is a fundamental part of their identity.

I think you owe Aussies (and Kiwis) an apology.

>Have you ever considered that the reason why the vast, overwhelming majority of posters on these forums find your comments to be so asinine, so execrable, so odious, so puerile, so contemptible is that you consistently present your opinion as absolute, unimpeachable fact.

No, it's because I say stuff that makes them uncomfortable and challenges their assumptions and opinions. People might not necessarily like this.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Nadelstich
On Wednesday, May 08, 2002 at 01:02:41

Message:

Hombre, I do wish you would not give these topics short shrift. Your illogic seems to have degenerated to the level of the tepid and pedestrian. What ever happened to those egregiously bizarre absurdities we came to know and love. If you continue at this pace, you will forfeit the status of amusing toy that you have worked so long and hard to achieve here.

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Wednesday, May 08, 2002 at 02:53:26

Message:
Yeah -- nice try, Nadelstich. :)
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Wednesday, May 08, 2002 at 18:19:49

Message:
>On the contrary. You're assuming discrimination against dark-skinned people is normative. Why on EARTH should Australians want to discriminate against someone just because his skin is dark? The onus is very much on YOU to prove why you should assume this sort of behaviour to be the case amongst people whom you've never met and who actual find such an insinuation very insulting, necessarily impugning their committment to the concept of "fair go" which is a fundamental part of their identity.

I'm not assuming anything. As a matter of fact, it is you who is assuming that I am assuming something.

Never is an absolute term. You are stating unequivocally that there has never been one instance of discrimination against dark-skinned people in Australia. I'm merely stating that unless you are capable of being in all places at all times and can observe all interactions between all people in Australia's entire history, you cannot say that there has NEVER been discrimination against dark-skinned people in Australia.

If you said that it was rare or that it hadn't happened to your knowledge, I'd believe you. As far as apologizing to anyone, I said that nothing that warrants an apology, least of all to New Zealanders. In any case, as far as apologies go, perhaps this article will explain why I would feel less inclined to apologize to Austraia in any case: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/08/international/asia/08REFU.html

>No, it's because I say stuff that makes them uncomfortable and challenges their assumptions and opinions. People might not necessarily like this.

In your dreams. You really give yourself too much credit. People are capable of engaging in discourse with ideas they may find disagreeable, but I have rarely (note that I do not use the absolute term never) come across anyone whose way of arguing is so fatuous, whose commentary is so flatulent, that I am amazed that you do not drift off to the south filled with gas to finally disappear through the hole in the ozone over Antartica.

I guess that would be in my dreams.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Friday, May 10, 2002 at 22:43:45

Message:
>If you said that it was rare or that it hadn't happened to your knowledge, I'd believe you.

Yeah sure!

>...whose commentary is so flatulent...

"...and to whom I'm addicted", you should add! :)
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Sunday, May 12, 2002 at 17:31:04

Message:
I would believe you if you said that it was rare or that it hadn't happened to your knowledge. The problem is that instead of arguing a position on its merits, you present it as absolute, incontrovertible fact and then demand that others prove you wrong.

As for as being "addicted", don't flatter yourself. There's so much bullshit on the internet, I just feel an obligation to keep things real.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Monday, May 13, 2002 at 22:37:31

Message:
>The problem is that instead of arguing a position on its merits, you present it as absolute, incontrovertible fact and then demand that others prove you wrong.

Is discrimination against dark-skinned people normative? Why should it be assumed that this is the case universally and that it is incumbant on whoever suggests otherwise to "prove" beyond a shadow of a doubt that this isn't the case? Why shouldn't it be that non-discrimination against dark-skinned people should be assumed to be the case and that it should be the duty of he who contends otherwise to "prove" THAT beyond a shadow of a doubt? Remember: not everyone is an American and not everyone thinks like an American. Your insistence on assuming that discrimination against dark-skinned people is normative is in itself very revealing and instructive.

>There's so much bullshit on the internet, I just feel an obligation to keep things real.

Oh you noble, self-sacrificing thing, you.


RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Aborigine
On Wednesday, May 15, 2002 at 13:47:04

Message:

What a gas bag fag.


RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by Randy Paul
On Wednesday, May 15, 2002 at 14:06:02

Message:
We would do well to ignore him. His commentary has the same effect as urinating in a blue serge suit: it leaves one with a warm feeling, but no one notices.
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by El Hombre
On Wednesday, May 15, 2002 at 22:32:50

Message:
>We would do well to ignore him. His commentary has the same effect as urinating in a blue serge suit: it leaves one with a warm feeling, but no one notices.

Ouch! :'-(
RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by
On Monday, July 01, 2002 at 14:12:05

Message:

RE: Southern Brazil!
Posted by jasonz
On Monday, October 07, 2002 at 22:00:41

Message:
What a disservice this El Hombre is to Australians (like me!). His generalisations about what Australian is, what an Australian girl just show childish and absolutist thinking.

As for the absence of discrimination or racism, and his claim that it is absolute truth in his argument, this is fatuous. There is clear evidence of it, the Aboriginals in the country and queensland are subject to particularly ruthless racial abuse and cultural exclusion.

Of course, El Hombre would argue that this "didn't count" because it was "culturalist."

The only happiness we can glean from the interchanges is this: it's apparent that he regards himself as an intellect, and for all observers it's equally apparent that his intellect will not propel him to the societal level that he no doubt thinks he is deserving of.


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