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Subject: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women


Posted by an observer
On Saturday, August 10, 2002 at 15:40:26

Message:
Historically, women pursue men older than themselves because an older man is more likely to have made the investment in himself that allows him to financially support a family. Historically, when a man looks for a wife he is looking for someone who can have and care for children (that generally means a woman who is younger than himself).

This was true before the population control nazis (within the UN) made sure that everyone learned in school that the most wasted life is a life dedicated to caring for and forming the mind of the next generation. The intentions of the UN were/are good, however they seem to miss the point that the greatest asset to every person is other people (specifically, people taught to be disciplined, contributors to society, and who have respect for other people and the world within which we live), and that people create wealth.

This phenomenon of European and American men seeking Brazilian wives will probably last about another 15 years.

In Europe and North America, there are many more older men than there are younger women. The opposite is currently true in Brazil.

Within 15 years, the inversion of the population pyramid, a phenomenon which has afflicted Japan and Europe for several years (as zero population growth was pushed by the UN, first on Italy and Japan immediately after WWII, and then on the rest of the world, and is now afflicting the USA) will be in full force within Brazil.

By that time the whole world will be in a full scale recession from which there will be no escape without the creation of more people (Witness Japan’s recession for the past 12 years, which is primarily a result of its inverted population pyramid).

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Pork_Chop_1
On Monday, August 12, 2002 at 15:00:29

Message:
Yes, of course this is quite true.

While alarmists are still talking about world overpulation, the opposite is in fact, is what we should be worried about. A population dirge. In about 15 to 20 years or so, populations will begin to drop worldwide with a few exceptions (like the middle east, possibly Africa if the AIDS epidemic continues).

But is the 'phenomenom', as you call it, of European and North American men seeking Brazilian wives due to a biological imperitive, or more to the widely acknowledged assumption that Brazilian women are sexier and exude an infectuous 'joie de vivre'?
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Tuesday, August 13, 2002 at 07:46:32

Message:
Good point Pork_Chop_1,
In my opinion the issues are all mixed together. It is difficult to isolate cause from effect. However, it is clear that for the past 40 years most American and European women have been fully indoctrinated to believe that getting married and caring for children (caring for and forming/disciplining the mind of the next generation) is the equivalent of throwing away their life (remember Hillary Clinton celebrating the fact that she though serving milk and cookies to be a waste of time). This appears to be the cause of the baby dirge in Japan, Europe, and North-America. This dirge appears to feed on itself as succeeding generations are smaller than preceding generations, and fewer young women who are pursued by many many many older men. Causing the younger women to have contempt for men (too many men to choose from) and have less of a desire to be sexy (which is related to pro-creation) and/or exude an infectious 'joie de vivre'.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Perplexed
On Tuesday, August 13, 2002 at 11:24:17

Message:
What a strange post, no there are not a bunch of older men in north america fawning all over young women in north america, so it gives younger women an attitude. That's crap, it happens but it's more the exception than the norm. You see more of that in latin america. I agree single moms with kids find it virtually impossible to find a man nowadays, that's due to the affluence of our societies. Men and women need each other less and less. And yes younger women struggle to find a date just like anyone else. What an odd post Pork Chop.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Tuesday, August 13, 2002 at 12:30:01

Message:
Yes, Perplexed, it is true that Men and Women perceive less and less of a need each other (particularly, women perceive less and less of a need for a man) , in societies no longer interested in self preservation via pro-creation (as is currently true in Europe, North-America, and Japan). This is why NorthAmerican, European and Japanese men seem to seek women in Brazil and other South-American countries.

Regarding single women with children in the USA: if she is reasonably attractive and not completely self-absorbed (as is typical of North-American women) she will have no trouble finding men.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Saturday, August 17, 2002 at 11:44:57

Message:
Observer wrote:

..." if she is reasonably attractive and not completely self-absorbed (as is typical of North-American women) she will have no trouble finding men." ...

Observer: Can you write more about the North-American women? Can you give me a profile about the North-American women?



RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Saturday, August 17, 2002 at 11:48:31

Message:
Observer wrote: if she is reasonably attractive and not completely self-absorbed (as is typical of North-American women) she will have no trouble finding men.

Can you write more about the North-American women? A profile of North-American women?


RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Saturday, August 17, 2002 at 11:50:28

Message:
Observer wrote: if she is reasonably attractive and not completely self-absorbed (as is typical of North-American women) she will have no trouble finding men.

Can you give a profile of North-American women?

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Saturday, August 17, 2002 at 21:42:56

Message:
Ok, Brazilian. I suspect you are trying to set me up. But, so what. I'll bite.

This is how the typical North-American woman (not specifically unwed mother) appears to me. It is an over generalization but ....... a general profile of a North-American woman would be a self-absorbed and self-obsessed woman who, during her teens and twenties, was fully indoctrinated to believe that getting married and caring for children (caring for and forming/disciplining the mind of the next generation) would be the equivalent of throwing away her life (remember Hillary Clinton being celebrated for celebrating the fact that she thought serving milk and cookies to be a waste of time). Also, she has been taught to think of a man as her competitor rather than a potential partner.

Upon reaching her mid thirties she suddenly realizes that she wants to have at least one child, and becomes mad at the world (especially men) because her fertility has dropped to a point where becoming pregnant is nearly impossible (true for most but not all women). Ironic, given that the USA is a country where more than 20% of all pregnancies are terminated via abortion (that is more than 5000 abortions a day).
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Sunday, August 18, 2002 at 10:28:24

Message:
Observer,

May be the grand part of North-American women are feminist due a doctrine to believe that getting married and caring for children would be the equivalent of throwing away her life and she has been taught to think of a man as her competitor rather than a potential partner. But who released this doctrine in the North-American society? To be independent I think that is great. Grand part of Brazilian women prefer to live as dependent of the husband. Many work, but if they can live as dependent of a husband, then they prefer this style of life. It will be that this has been influenced due the political of catholic church influence in Brazil and in the USA the colonization was other, in case was protestant church from England? Or you think that there are other motives, which has produced this different comportament either different societies?

Generally, Latin women are extremely dependent of the husbands.


RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Monday, August 19, 2002 at 10:26:50

Message:
Hello Brazilian
Interesting questions. I think there are many factors. It is possible that variations between Catholic and Protestant religions may have something to do with it. The respect given to Mary, for example, in the Catholic church as a powerful image of motherhood (Of all the saints, Mary, a woman, is the most respected person, who is not also God, in the Catholic church).

But I think there are other factors also. The media and colleges/universities in the USA today are largely pagan. These institutions worship things that are part of creation rather than the creator of creation. Every child is taught in the public schools that there are too many people, people are bad for the environment (the environment is good and should be worshiped, people are bad). Children are also taught by the school systems that the contributions of women to society and the world was/is not valued by the world.

In other words, children in the USA and Europe are taught Women are exploited by "traditional" gender rolls. The environment is exploited by people. The solution to both problems is this: stop (or reduce) the creation of children.

The public institutions in the USA and the UN believes the solution to the “undervalued” status of women and exploitation of the environment is to force women to be more like men (men do not give birth to children). They do not articulate that they try to force women to be more like men. Maybe they do not even understand that they are forcing women to be more like men (whether an individual woman wants this or not). They say they are helping women gain access to more opportunities she they would realize in the traditional roll.

By the way, I am looking for a woman who will depend on me. I am also looking for a woman who I can depend on. She may depend on me in different ways than I depend on her. But, the dependence will be mutual.

We are all dependent.

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Tuesday, August 20, 2002 at 20:13:48

Message:
If you are looking for a woman who will depend of you in financial terms, then there is very easy to find in Brazil and any Latin America country and the East European countries. Women who are looking to exit of the poverty. The big problem is find a woman who are not interested in the money of a man...It is the problem.
About the birth control, I think that is necessary. Look China, India, etc... It is necessary a birth control. It is necessary a sustainable development. There are poor families of which have 9 children. It is necessary a sustainable development.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Wednesday, August 21, 2002 at 07:18:25

Message:
Hello Brazilian:

Yes, you are correct when you say that there are plenty of woman in Latin-America and Eastern Europe that would be happy to depend on me (or any man) for money. In some cases that would be a bad thing. But, if she were the mother of my children and was focused on the difficult job of forming the mind of the next generation, she would have a right to expect to depend on me financially. We would form a family unit of mutual dependence.

I do not agree with you regarding birth-control. You seem to equate birth-control with prosperity, and lack of birth control with poverty. Although it is common to think this way (most people are taught this in school) I do not think it is correct.

It seems to me that poverty results wherever there is lack of respect for human life and rule of law. Wherever warfare and corrupt government is common, poverty appears to be common. Taiwan and Hon Kong (for example) are more congested than China or India. But there is much less poverty in Taiwan and Hong Kong than there is in China or India. Taiwan and Hong Kong have economies based upon a regulated semi-free-market. China is a command economy dictated by a few people. India has a cast system which does not allow people to make any choices in life (although this is changing). Also, note, China is only as congested as the state of Pennsylvania in the USA. Yet no-one says that poverty in the state of Pennsylvania is caused by over population.

People (specifically people who are disciplined and have respect for other people) are every persons greatest asset. The problems people face are only solved when multiple people share ideas and find solutions that no single person could have solved alone.

Also, one more thing.

I would advise my sister to not get married to a man who thinks he has the right to abandon his wife and children if he wants to do so in the future. Similarly, I believe I am wise to not consider getting married to a woman who believes she has the right to abort her unborn child.

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Friday, August 23, 2002 at 13:31:47

Message:
Observer,

In Brazil, each more the middle class is having less children and due the high cost of life in Brazil where who lives receiving miserable salary in reais (national currency in Brazil). But, the poor people of which don´t have enough education and they are extremely ignorant in many things, normally have a lot of children and without to have financial conditions to raise their children.

It is necessary before of anything to have a minimum domestic budget to keep your family in good conditions of health, education and until the leasure. If you don´t have enough conditions to keep a minimum standard of life, then you should not have children and inclusive not be married and only have a girlfriend or a female companion living with you.

In China is only permited a couple to have one child and not more than this. In India, there is a program also to control of birth. About the Taiwan is an island, and Hong Kong is an ex-colony of the England. Look the big problem in Africa and the Aids and the starvation.

Could you give me a good example of country in Africa where there is no starvation, aids, porverty, etc?

..." Yet no-one says that poverty in the state of Pennsylvania is caused by over population."...

Oh... Come on... Pennsylvania is considered of the main states of the US where you will find a high per capita incomes for each individual who lives there. Of course that there are spots of poverty, but we are discussing a macro economy.

We are discussing countries and analysing the problems of each country in terms of colonization, history and cultural life.

You wrote discipline and rule of laws. Yes, you are right. But, there is the problem of cultural life of each people and the way how each country went colonized.

Other thing, in recent research made by the IBGE shows that each children is born in Brazil is owing $1.200,00 for the external debt of the Brazil. It is terrible. The middle class in Brazil work to survive everyday and work to pay federal income taxes, as well state and municipal taxs of which are overcharged always in excess and inclusive in foods. For this reason, each more it is necessary the birth control.


RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Friday, August 23, 2002 at 17:32:15

Message:
Hello Brazilian:

You are an intelligent person. If we were conducting this conversation in Portuguese, I would have a very difficult time. I know English is not your primary language. I have great respect for you for writing to me in English (my ability to write in Portuguese is not as good as your ability to write in English).

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I agree with you regarding many points. However, regarding the benefit of population/birth control (as it has been pushed by intellectuals in the UN and USA on many countries), I disagree with you.

In the past, I was taught in school (I suspect you were also) that reduced population growth is required for prosperity (both micro and macro economy). Today, I agree that reduced population growth may provide benefits for a short time (both micro and macro economy). It is easier, for example, to provide for one child than to provide for four children. However, I believe that reduced population growth results in huge long term problems (both micro and macro economy). One child has fewer people to team with when attempting to solve problems. Also, one child will not be able to care for parents in their old age as well as four children. Also, it results in a change in how money is distributed to families such that both parents need to work outside the home in order to pay the bills, and no-one has time to take care of the child!

Let me tell you what has happened in the USA. The USA had a very strong economy before there was any attempt to slow down the population in the 1960s. Then, the birth-control pill became available (1962). Many college professors and intellectuals started telling newly married people to take birth control pills and delay parenthood until after they had enough money to purchase a house etc. ..... Soon everyone was taking birth-control pills. Both the mother and father would rent a small apartment and work for a while so they could save some money to purchase a house and have money to take care of the children. But, since nearly all newly married couples were doing the same thing, there was more money available in most young families to purchase a house. This caused inflation in the cost of housing until the cost of a house in the USA became based upon two people working outside the home. Before the pressures of birth control, only one person needed to work outside the home in order to purchase a house. Because of birth-control, people work harder, and have no time to take care of the children they do have.

Also, the population in the USA is getting very old very fast. The children that are born today are going to have to pay huge taxes in order to pay for the social security of older people.

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I agree there are many reasons why Brazil, Argentina and other Latin American countries have economic problems. Many of the reasons have to do with history. In some cases the problems are caused by the USA and the UN. For example, when Argentina wanted to restructure its IMF loans during the 1990s, president Clinton (and his wife Hillary) said "no". Why (you might ask) did Hillary and Bill say "no"?...... Hillary and Bill said "no" because Argentina refused to send a totally pro-abortion delegation to the UN conference on Women in China. If Argentina sent a totally pro-abortion delegation to the UN conference on Women in China, Bill and Hillary said they would have helped Argentina restructure the loans. Argentina would still have some problems today. But not be nearly as bad as it is.

..........

My point in bringing up Pennsylvania is to show that population density is not the problem. I agree with you, history and culture is the problem. I do not say it is the fault of the Chinese, but lack of self discipline, lack of self determination, lack of respect for human life and lack of respect of rule of law and a corrupt government (maybe as a result of colonialization) is the problem.

.........

Regarding Africa, I agree with you. ..... Africa is loaded with civil war and corruption (possibly as a result of its colonial history). Civil war and corruption (lack of respect for human life, and lack of respect for rule of law) is the problem. If there were more respect for human life and rule of law, people would team together and find ways to solve problems like water purification, improved use of farm land, etc. .....

..........

You are correct regarding Taiwan and Hong Kong, they inherited government systems and respect for rule of law from England (as did the USA). They have more people per square meter than China and India, yet they have very prosperous economies.

..............................

Please, do not presume that the UN or the USA understands what is best for Brazil, Argentina or any other Latin American country. Do not let the USA and the UN push your countries into use of too much birth-control and abortion. If you do so, you will be doing to your self what the USA Western Europe and Japan have been doing for the past 30 years. You will be killing your future.
...............................................................


RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 06:17:54

Message:
Observer,

Yes, English is my second language and for this reason there is gramatical errors, different style of writting, etc. However, it is enough to understand what I write. About the Portuguese language,it is better to write in English language because is easier. Portuguese language is not an easy language to tell and write.
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You wrote:
...¨both parents need to work outside the home in order to pay the bills, and no-one has time to take care of the child!¨...

Yes, it is true in the modern life and the same happen in Brazil and other countries. But, this also happen because the people want each more things of which their parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents did not need in the past. For this reason, if you want to acquire more and more things and only to say: ..¨Oh...Look.. I have a new camera, I have a cable TV, I have a new sport car, I have a new motorboat, etc¨... Then you will need to work much more to pay the instalments of these things and of which are superfluous, unnecessary to have a good life. Thus, to have enough time to raise a child is a question also to analyse what the parents want. They can have time to raise a child if one makes a schedule of which can be enough to take care of the child and the other the same. It is necessary discipline and organization. As well as to buy things that are really important to the family and not to buy superfluous things. Of course that some few things are bought to be an entertainment, but other are not necessary and many American families finish owing a big money in things not necessary to have a good life.
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About the high taxes charged of the governments, there is no problem if you see that your money is being well applied and you have a good return in public services. Unfortunately in Brazil you pay a lot of money and you don´t see almost nothing as good return to you as citizen. About the social security there is the same problem in Brazil where the young people need to pay the taxes and there is much more older people as retirement. But, in Brazil, there is a worst problem that is unemployment and for this reason a grand part of the population today not pay social security taxes and because don´t have an employment and work in temporary works and when people get something.
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Countries:

May be, we could give as good example the Scandinavian countries no? or Australia, New Zealand, etc.. no?

About the Argentina is broken. In fact this country is broken since the time of Peronismo in Argentina. The populism politicals have broken the Latin countries, as well as the excess of corruption, bad organization, etc... But, there is also the cultural problems. These countries in Latin America were colonized by Spain and Portugal, and these countries only explorated the Latin America and a good reason is see how these countries are until today. Spain and Portugal are still considered one of the poorest countries of ocidental Europe and only loosing to Greece.

Good or bad: The country who better colonized new countries was the England. Only give you a small tour of the world and see the examples of: Canada, USA, Australia and New Zeland.

About the France you don´t see any country colonized by the France of which is a good example and the same from Belgiun, Germany,Dennmark, and Italy.

About the abortion-delegation from Argentina. I think that this don´t have nothing with the economical situation of Argentina. The bigger problem in Argentina besides of Populism in that country is the problem of which the country don´t have almost nothing of industries and the main economy in Argentina is the cattle breeding, and plantation of wheat.

Fortunately in Brazil, there is a big and modern industries and of which do the country to produce enough to grow and inclusive to export many products. But, there are cultural problems. Brazil was discovered 500 years ago and continue to have serious social and economy problems. Australia was discovered only 200 years ago and today is considered a first world country.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 10:56:58

Message:
Hello Brazilian:

I agree with you regarding many issues. However, I still disagree with you regarding birth control. Birth control is not necessary for development and improvement in standards of living. In fact, it appears that birth control and abortion are the cause of long term collapse of human economy. The countries that were the first to implement pro-birthcontrol and pro-abortion policies, enjoyed some short term benefits associated with not having to deal with the costs of caring for many children (Japan Italy and Scandinavia for example). However, now the economies of those countries are imploding due to not enough working adults to pay the bills for retired/week old people.

Regarding housing costs in the USA, it is a fact that housing costs have (in inflation adjusted dollars) risen in proportion to the average number of people working (outside the home) to purchase a single house (currently 2 people, in the past 1 person). Birthcontrol and abortion (delaying children) enabled women to work outside the home for extended periods of time and has put tremendous upward pressure on the cost of housing in the USA. Now, we are stuck. ...... Now, in general, two wage earners are required to purchase a house.

It is true that some people waste their money on things that are not important. However, this fact, that people often waste their money on other things, has the effect of causing the price of housing to go down. If everyone, simultaneously believed it was a good idea to spend half their income on cloths, everyone would have less income available to purchase a house. Housing costs would fall.

If not for birth control and abortion, much fewer women would be working outside the home. And, on average, housing costs would be based on a single pay check, rather two pay checks.

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Regarding the different histories of the English colonies and those of Portugal and Spain, you are correct.

Most of the people from England who went to colonize the USA, for example, went because they wanted the freedom to worship God in ways different from the Church of England (the Pilgrims and Puritans who settled in Massachusetts).

Most of the settlers from Spain and Portugal went to exploit the land and Indian people.

I do not by the way think the English are better people than the Spanish or Portuguese. But the first English to settle in American came for different reasons than the Spanish and Portuguese.

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Regarding my comments about Argentina and the Clintons: I only wanted to point out that things were made worse by the USA and UN trying to force abortion as an accepted practice on Argentina. Argintina has many problems (as you noted). But, one of its problems was its failure to submit to the political agenda of the Clintons regarding abortion.

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Brazilian, I think you are intelligent. You currently see things in a way that I used to see things. It took a while, but I now know that I was taught things that are false. Specifically I was taught the falsehood that the way to prosperity is through birthcontrol and abortion.

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People create wealth, people are everyone's greatest asset (again, specifically people who are taught to be responsible disciplined contributors to society and who have respect for other people and the world we live in).

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If you want I can list a few references, I suspect you will have no trouble reading them,. But, they are all in English.

Cheers
John

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 16:05:09

Message:
Hello again Brazilian,
We have all been fully educated (through the school systems, etc ...) in the theories about the population explosion. To be fair we should all at least listen to the counter arguments.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_marapr_2001/eberstadt.html

http://afgen.com/populat31.html

http://www.physiciansforlife.org/archived_population.htm

http://zimmerman.catholic.ac/pop-overheated.htm

http://www.spintechmag.com/2002a/ph030402.htm

http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/417.html

Also, consider reading the following book:
"The War against Population"
by Jacqueline Kasun;
Second Edition, 1999,
Ignatius Press, SanFrancisco, USA
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Saturday, August 24, 2002 at 16:26:13

Message:
one more that should be interesting:

http://afgen.com/popula15.html
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Sunday, August 25, 2002 at 07:08:23

Message:
Ok, observer,

I´m going to see some links later of which you passed in the recent messages.

You are a strong defenser against the birth-control and the abortion. But, you should analyse better case per case. When I say Birth-Control, I´m not saying Birth ¨extermination¨ and about the abortion too. There are cases of which it is necessary to happen. You can´t be radical in nothing. It is necessary analyse case by case. The word: control, it means to control or to regulate something. It is necessary to see the cost and benefice of the things. Look the nature and the evolution of nature by Humbolt and also Darwin. If the own animals have a birth control, then the humans should not have? It is necessary to use ALWAYS the good sense.

Wars exist and are made in times by times for a necessity. Normally wars are made for financial and commercial interests. Diseases exist as a type of natural control of birth too.

About more older people and less young people also is linked due the medicine progress. Some decades ago, people did not live a long time and with the advance of medicine and better nutrition, etc, people live much more if you compare with your ancestors. Some decades ago, families had a lot of children and because many of the children died for different diseases of which today are perfectly avoidable with vaccines made.

I think that the things must be controled and nothing of radicalism for less or for more, but to seek a middle point. The good sense.

About the history of colonization. I agree with you in terms of the USA and maybe in Canada too. But in terms of Australia, the motives of colonization were others and similar in various things with Brazil and other Latin American countries. But, today Australia is considered a first world country and having ONLY 200 years of which was discovered and Brazil 500 years... If the Brazil was colonized by the England, then today the history of Brazil would be much and much more different.

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Sunday, August 25, 2002 at 11:46:42

Message:
Observer,

I read one matter of which you put a link in one of your messages.
http://www.physiciansforlife.org/archived_population.htm

It is an interesting matter. I think that one of principal reasons that in many countries there are a decline line of births is due the economical competition of which make the couples to work much more and also want to have more things, inclusive of which will not use or will use very little and in consequence of the political of consumption that exist. Many people fell frustation if they don´t have a new sport car or a new motor boat or a jet ski or other thing of which is not necessary to you have a good life. Maybe, the people today is much more selfish and stingy and only seeing the material side and ignoring the human life.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Monday, August 26, 2002 at 07:06:24

Message:
Hello Brazilian:

I agree with you about many things. Especially your last point.

“Maybe, the people today is much more selfish and stingy and only seeing the material side and ignoring the human life.”

My answer to your statement (included above) is YES, YES, YES. You are correct. And, this is more true in countries like the USA than in countries like Brazil. And, it is true for both men and women.

However, a primary reason for this in the USA is that the school systems in the USA (including the NEA, Teachers Unions, etc ......) have been pushing the pro-abortion and pro-birth control agenda on children in the USA for several generations. A primary part of this “education” is an understanding that giving birth to children and caring for the next generation is the equivalent of wasting your life. Women are taught that they cannot have a fulfilling life unless there are as many women as men in ALL employment areas including truck-driver, construction-worker, police-officer. I am not saying that women should not be allowed to work in those areas. However, to expect, and demand equal representation in all areas of work as a sign of equality between the sexes is ridiculous.

To me, the average American woman is (I know I am repeating my self here) a self-absorbed and self-obsessed woman who, during her teens and twenties, was fully indoctrinated to believe that getting married and caring for children (caring for and forming/disciplining the mind of the next generation) would be the equivalent of throwing away her life (remember Hillary Clinton being celebrated for celebrating the fact that she thought serving milk and cookies to be a waste of time). Also, she has been taught to think of a man as her competitor rather than a potential partner. Upon reaching her mid thirties she suddenly realizes that she wants to have at least one child, and becomes mad at the world (especially men) because her fertility has dropped to a point where becoming pregnant is nearly impossible (true for most but not all women). Ironic, given that the USA is a country where more than 20% of all pregnancies are terminated via abortion (that is more than 5000 abortions a day).

By the way I do not believe birth control should be outlawed. However, just as a man should not be able to abandon his family except of extreme circumstances. Abortion should be outlawed, except for extreme circumstances.

Further, education of the young in the USA should be taken away from the NEA and the teachers unions. Children are not going to learn the concepts of self sacrifice from the public schools where all children are held captive by the NEA and the teachers unions.

Also, if I ever get married, it will probubly be a Brazilian woman. Here is why. Generally Brazilian women are less likely to spend every conscious moment trying to prove she can do everything a man can do (what is the point). Even very educated women seem to be more interested in a man as a partner rather than as someone to compete against. Many Brazilian women still think it is a good and nobel calling to be a mother and to care for and form the mind of the next generation.

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Monday, August 26, 2002 at 10:54:48

Message:
One more thing, Brazilian:

Many people say that people are living longer, and that this is causing the problem of too many old people to be supported by young people (through social security). I hear this all the time. I hear it on the radio and television. I read this when I read the news. I was taught this when I went to school. But, in fact, this is false.

To say that the problem is due to people living longer is similar to saying that the outgoing ocean tide is caused by a little child taking a bucket of water out of the ocean while at the beach. If the child takes water out of the ocean, sure, there will be a little less water in the ocean. But this is small compared to the ebb and flow of the tide caused by the moon and sun.

For example, what if everyone lived a long time. Would that cause there to be more old people than young people?.... No, it would not. Unless the birth rate was below replacement level (2.1 children per woman), as it is in many places (including Europe, Japan and the USA).

Let me provide an extreme example. Let us pretend that everyone lived to be 100 (today, very few people live that long), and that everyone retired at the age of 62 (today, not everyone retires that early). Let us also pretend that no-one started working for a living until the age of 22 (today many people start working before age 22).

For the above example, everyone would be retired for 40 years. And everyone would be working for 40 years.

If the birthrate was below 2.1 per women (as it is in Europe, Japan, USA and soon Brazil) there would be more retired people than working people. If, however the birth rate was above 2.1 women per child there would be less retired people than people working. If the birth rate were something like 2.5 or 3 children per woman then there would be many, many, many, many more workers than retired people. And this assumes all people live an extremely long time (100 years).

My point is that long life span does not cause the problem. Long life spans have an effect similar to the effect of a child with a bucket on the ocean tide.

The problem is caused by low birth rates.

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Tuesday, August 27, 2002 at 18:55:25

Message:
Yes, Observer, you have a strong argumentation and of which make good sense in terms of statistical numbers. But, couples only can have children if they have enough financial and social conditions to give a good support to their children, in case contrary, the children born can be more a future juvenile delinquent and not a future contributor to the Social Security, but in fact, more a public charge to the social security contributors.


RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Wednesday, August 28, 2002 at 08:32:04

Message:
Dear Brazilian:

Do not have fear. The problems that you mention are real and physical, but the origins of the problems are spiritual. Most people see only the short term problems associated with having children. Most people do not see the long term benefits of having children. When we are taught (by our education systems) to be fearful of the problems associated with children (and more people), but are not taught the benefits, we are taught a non-truth.

To have and care for a child, rather than purchase a new boat, is to be generous to the world and also to yourself.

To have and care for a child, rather than drive a new car, is to be generous to the world and also to yourself.

Always remember, and never forget: The large cities of the west (London, Paris, New York, Tokyo for example) grew out of the problems of poverty by having children. These children teamed together to solve problems. They created the greatest economic engines of the world. It is only now, that they are reducing their fertility, that they risk decay and likely fall back into poverty in the future.

It is important that people learn (are taught) the benefits of having children. Everyone is already “educated” to be fearful of having children.

When the angle first spoke to Mary, the first words were ....... “Do not have fear”.

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Wednesday, August 28, 2002 at 21:05:11

Message:
Observer,

I invite you to come in Brazil and to do some sightseens in favelas, miserable people begging money, food, clothes, etc on the streets and in front of bakeries, food stores, hipermarkets, inside of shopping centers in Mc Donnalds stores, etc... Poor children, miserable children, poor people, miserable people. This is due a lack of control of birth and a tremendous social unequality of which came from hundred years ago.


RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Wednesday, August 28, 2002 at 21:12:59

Message:
By the way, today in Brazil, if you have 30, 35, 40 years old and same you having various professional specialities, PHDs, etc, then you are highly discriminated and it is very and very difficult to get a job and when you get, then you normally is very bad remunerated and can loose in any time the job for an other person who is younger and accept to receive much less of which you are receiving. The consequence about this is much more unemployment and who are employed generally receive very bad salaries in the final of the month.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Wednesday, August 28, 2002 at 22:58:42

Message:
I have been, and I have seen. Yet, I do not think it is worse today in Brazil (in any favela) than it was in London, 100 years ago.

Again, these problems, also, are real and physical, but the origins are spiritual.

Once again, you seem to claim that the solution to the problem is to stop having children. But, you provide no evidence that not having children (remember, I do not advise that everyone have 10 children), or having very few children (less than replacement level of 2.1 per woman) will help solve the problem.

You sound like most population control "experts" who claim that the solution to poverty problem is to stop having children.

But, you provide no evidence.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Thursday, August 29, 2002 at 06:35:04

Message:
Also, Brazilian, the problems you list are additional examples of the effects of corruption, and lack of respect for other people. There is no evidence to suggest that the problems you list are not caused by overpopulation.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Thursday, August 29, 2002 at 06:44:08

Message:
Sorry, that last sentence should be: There is no evidence to suggest that the problems you list are caused by overpopulation.

In fact there is plenty of evidence that the problems have nothing to do with population density (or as population control advocates would say, over population).


RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Thursday, August 29, 2002 at 20:28:41

Message:
Observer, you wrote:

..." of the effects of corruption, and lack of respect for other people."...

For this exact reason (one of the main reasons) is that the middle class in Brazil has reduced a lot to have children and many and many couples prefer have not children and due the consequences to live in a society as is the Brazilian society.

Only living in Brazil and receiving miserable salaries in Reais is that can have a good idea about the reality of the facts.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Thursday, August 29, 2002 at 20:36:25

Message:
Observer,

Are you a Catholic Priest or a Pastor of a Protestant Church?
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Friday, August 30, 2002 at 05:04:28

Message:
Brazilian:
I am not a Catholic Priest or a Paster of a Protestant Church. But, I think the Catholic church is correct in it's position regarding birth-control and abortion. I would not, however think it wise to out-law birth-control. But I do think it is wise to outlaw abortion.

Note: I understand why many couples decide not to have children. They know only about the problems of having children. They are taught about the problems of having children. They are not taught the benefits of having children.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Friday, August 30, 2002 at 05:37:19

Message:
Brazilian:

By the way, I am not an Orthodox Jew either (Orthodox Jews in the USA generally have large families). And I am not Muslim (Muslims generally have large families).

Brazilian, please note: Brazil is currently steeped in the "religion" of population control (despite, supposedly being primarily Catholic country). This religion" was pushed on Brazil by the West (USA UN, etc ....). This religion is preached in all your public institutions (schools, television, newspapers, etc ....).

I simply believe that intellectuals in the West (USA, UN, etc. ......) have spent too much time pushing the "religion" of population control, birth-control and abortion as solutions to the problems of the world.

The problems are not caused by "overpopulation". The problems will not go away by reducing the population. The problems are being made worse by reducing the population.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Friday, August 30, 2002 at 14:25:24

Message:
Observer wrote:

..." The problems will not go away by reducing the population. "...

Observer,

Give the solutions about the actual problems of the ocidental society and oriental society.


RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Friday, August 30, 2002 at 19:05:38

Message:
When you ask about how to solve the "problem" of poverty, you are asking a spiritual or religious question.

Even an atheist cannot approach the question without acknowledging the spiritual nature of the universe (if we are only matter, why worry about other peoples poverty. Why not just have fun. Focus on your own pleasure. And encourage those poor people to commit suicide via all means including birthcontrol and abortion).

I lack the intelectual power to outline in detail what must be done to solve the problems of poverty. However I know that the solution must be based upon respect for all people including those who cannot contribute to the econimic strength of the world and also the unborn. I am reminded of the words of C.S. Lewis:

"There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilization -- these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals who we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit -- immortal horrors or everlasting splendors." -- C. S. Lewis,
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Friday, August 30, 2002 at 19:12:36

Message:
I should tell you. I am Catholic.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Friday, August 30, 2002 at 22:39:48

Message:
Observer,

Give me a good example of a country, which is a model to you in terms of public political in the world.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by another observer
On Friday, August 30, 2002 at 22:45:34

Message:
I commend you two on a very intellectual, civil discussion. I happen to agree with Brazilian, not only for the social reasons, but for environmental reasons as well. Wouldn't the strain on the planet be less if there were less people abusing it?
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Saturday, August 31, 2002 at 16:35:35

Message:
Brazilian:

There are many countries and cultures which I think could serve as a model to others for some (but not all) aspects of life. But, all countries and cultures seem to fail to live up to the ideal.

I am not sure I understand your question as it relates to the questions of population density, birthcontrol and abortion and poverty (Unless you desire to move the conversation to a different subject).

However, it seems to me that citizens are better off (economically) in any country where there is a history of decentralized economic power (not lack of power. But, power distributed throughout large segments of the population), with a simultaneous respect for property rights, rule of law, and respect for the dignity of all human beings. These characteristics are fairly common in many English speaking countries. Citizens of many English speaking countries expect a guarantee of certain liberties from the government. English colonists expected these liberties when they colonized North America (for example). There were many wars and battles (physical and intellectual) required to earn these liberties.

Although these liberties are more common in the English world. I do not believe this has anything to due with the English being predominantly Protestant rather than Catholic (regarding the question you asked on August 18). The "Margna Carta" is the most famous document stating the liberties guaranteed to the English people that have become a part of English law and the foundation of the constitution of English-speaking nations all over the world (including the USA). The Magna Carta was written when England was still Catholic (in the year 1215).


to the other observer:
Brazilian brings up many interesting points, and he does this in a way that shows respect for me and others. I cannot help but show respect for him.
Also, It is not clear to me that the environmental and social problems you suggest are caused by excessive population.




RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Saturday, August 31, 2002 at 16:49:08

Message:
Another observer wrote:

..." but for environmental reasons as well " ...

Hello other observer,

Sustaintable development are words very spoken (at least in Brazil) from the Green Party and ecologistics.

To produce in a manner sustaintable and not to destroy a lot of trees, jungles, etc. I think that any thing should be controled and nothing in overproduction. Each home in the USA (for example) should each householder to plant a plant of tree (look: At least one tree!) and being that the correct should be planted at three trees around of each home builted at least. But, what you see in Texas, Oklahoma and others states of US are only more and more houses, buldings in underconstruction and being constructing with a lot of wood and putting airconditioning and nothing of at least a tree to be planted around of the new house constructed. If you destroy and cut down a tree, then you need to plant a new tree in the same place. About the population should be a sustantaible growing too. No less and no overpopulation. All the environment exist when it is a perfect harmony and need to exist an balance. The same with the humans. If you don´t have a financial and social balance, then you will have serious consequences if you have children. Together with a sustantaible growing it is necessary to have a familiar planning with financial, social and spiritual balance. It is necessary to use the GOOD SENSE in anything in this life.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Saturday, August 31, 2002 at 17:23:57

Message:
Observer,

About the ex-English colonies and where you can find less violence and respect to the people is Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, and Canada (all countries without overpopulation). Of course, there are others and which are commowealth of United Kingdon.

In the USA, depend of the situation and the region where you live. Remember the case some years ago, which ocurred in LA? and more recently in Tennesse?

Depending of the district where you go in the a US City you run serious risk of life or to be stolen or murdered.

You cited the period when England was catholic, before to become protestant. Who colonized the USA and Canada were not catholics and all catholic countries are generally backward and this not mentioning the muslim countries of which many are still almost in the age of the rock and the women don´t have any rights.

Japan only became a first world country AFTER the Second War and thankfulness the General McCarthy (please, correct me if the the word is wrong about the general) who implanted in Japan the Agrarian Reform and an internal industrial revolution.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Saturday, August 31, 2002 at 18:41:40

Message:
Brazilian:

First, are we through with the poverty issue? You did not bring up the issue of poverty in your last post. Do you now agree that there is no evidence that poverty is caused by population density??

next issue, violence.
Are you saying that violence is caused by high population density? Are you joking? Are you saying that there is no violence in small towns (You obviously have not visited any of the small towns I have visited). You may not hear about violence in small towns in the world news, but that is because they are small towns!!! By the way, Tokyo Japan has high population density, and also has small amount of violence.

next issue, religion. .....
Maybe this is the primary issue with you ....
You beleive the English colonies were economicaly strong because of the Church of England that was headed by the King and Queen of England? And, you probubly beleive that if England were Catholic when the colonization took place, the colonies would have been similar to Brazil? I am not sure I can prove or disprove this. However, I must say, I beleive the English colonies were/are economicaly strong because of respect for rule of law, respect for property rights, and a garentee of personal liberties written into various forms of a Constitution that are based on the Magna Carta (catholic or protestant is not the issue, however if King John had been head of the church, I doubt the Magna Carta would have ever existed). When American colonists fought a war against their mother country (England), they were fighting not for new freedoms but to preserve liberties that dated to the 13th century and the Magna Carta.

Next issue, Japan industrialization.
Japan became an industrial power long before General MCcarther. Japan began to industrialize in the late 1800s. It was a major industrial power before World War II began. It was able to begin war with China and the USA because it was an Industrial power.

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Saturday, August 31, 2002 at 22:20:01

Message:
Observer wrote:

" ...First, are we through with the poverty issue? You did not bring up the issue of poverty in your last post. Do you now agree that there is no evidence that poverty is caused by population density??"...

I answered that Australia, New Zealand and Canada don´t have overpopulation and there are very low incidence of violence.

Observer wrote:
" ...Are you saying that violence is caused by high population density?..."

I think that this point should be considered too.

Observer wrote:
" ...Are you joking? Are you saying that there is no violence in small towns (You obviously have not visited any of the small towns I have visited). You may not hear about violence in small towns in the world news, but that is because they are small towns!!! By the way, Tokyo Japan has high population density, and also has small amount of violence..."

Certainly the incidence of violence in small towns is much less in towards middle and big cities. Mainly if there are small towns with an enough social and financial level to live enough well.

Observer wrote:

"...By the way, Tokyo Japan has high population density, and also has small amount of violence..."

You are mentioning an oriental society and not an ocidental society and where the values (worths) are others. However, the Japanese people has a big incidence to commit suicide. But, they have also a mafia there and exist lack of respect to women and men in some cases too. Exist also a social segregation and ethnic segregation either the own Japanese people.



Observer wrote:
" ...You beleive the English colonies were economicaly strong because of the Church of England that was headed by the King and Queen of England?..."

No. I believe that the English colonialist power had a good public political to colonize the colonies giving basic education, complying with the laws, stimulating industries and the trade, etc.. The English colonies in a grand part were much better colonized in towards the Portuguese, French, Spanish, and Belgiun colonies. These other colonialists only wanted to explore and stole gold, silver, and other rich mineral resources of the new world. As I already wrote, many of the people who exited of the England to live in the USA were in fact running away of England and for religious perseguition because they had OTHER religion. This type of religious perseguition also ocurred in the Catholic Church agains jews,luterans, etc...

Observer wrote:

"...And, you probubly beleive that if England were Catholic when the colonization took place, the colonies would have been similar to Brazil..."

The Catholic Church ALWAYS had BIG power under the Portuguese real court and the colonization of Brazil had a BIG participation of Jesuits and of which had serious problems later with the Brazilian Kingdom. Attention: Brazil already went one time a Monarchy and of which had a strong presence of the Catholic church in the public political in Brazil, as well as occured in Spanish countries. This part has caused a backward very big in these societies. When Brazil became a republic continued still to have a strong influence under catholic church and only a little time ago this strong influence has reduced a lot, but today the new influence in part of the government are the God Assemblies, and other evangelical churches with their Pastors and each more rich in Brazil buying TV public channels, Radio Channels, big buildings, etc, etc...

Henry VIII King of the United Kingdom whew created the Protestant religion in England was to SEPARATE of the continued intervetion made by the Catholic church.

Observer wrote:

" ...However, I must say, I beleive the English colonies were/are economicaly strong because of respect for rule of law, respect for property rights, and a garentee of personal liberties written into various forms of a Constitution that are based on the Magna Carta (catholic or protestant is not the issue, however if King John had been head of the church, I doubt the Magna Carta would have ever existed). When American colonists fought a war against their mother country (England), they were fighting not for new freedoms but to preserve liberties that dated to the 13th century and the Magna Carta..."

The American colonists also fought to break the monopoly of the tea of which the Englishmen had.

When Brazil became independent of Portugal, simply received an external debt left for Portugal and being the sponsor England. The England did many things in Brazil and part of the development of the Brasil is due the investments made by the England before and after of the independence of the Brazil. The first railways built in Brazil were made by British companies, as well as the first company of assurance policies in Brazil, and other things more. The industrial revolution started in England and not in other countries. Only after the industrial revolution went to the other countries.

Observer: " ...Next issue, Japan industrialization.
Japan became an industrial power long before General MCcarther. Japan began to industrialize in the late 1800s. It was a major industrial power before World War II began. It was able to begin war with China and the USA because it was an Industrial power..."

Japan only became an economical and industry power after the General MCcarther introduced the Agrarian Reform there. The Japanese people were extremely poor and due the archaic system of which exist during centuries there. Other thing, if it was not the money given for the USA to change all the infraestructure economic of the Japan, then the Japan would not become so fast a new economical power. This only happened after of the ending of the second war. The same ocurred with the Germany.












RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Saturday, August 31, 2002 at 22:38:42

Message:
It can be considered incredible, but I can´t see any other country of which was not colonized for the England to be considered a model of sucess today in terms of public politic, basic education and laws.

Can you give me a good example of a contry of which was colonized for a country not English speaking and can be today a model of sucess in terms of public politic, basic education, etc?

Of course that the countries colonized by the England are not ¨perfect¨, but if you see in the a general view then you can see that the best examples are only from countries colonized by England.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Sunday, September 01, 2002 at 00:23:31

Message:
Brazilian:
This conversation is becoming too fragmented to be continued. I will write this last post. And then let you have the final word.

In my opinion, if you want to understand why English speaking populations are economically strong (compared to other populations), you must first learn about the conditions that led to The Magna Carta (during the Middle Ages, the year 1215). You must then learn the consequence of the Magna Carta on the "rule of law" within England and English speaking colonies.

It has been good debating things with you.

cheers

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Sunday, September 01, 2002 at 05:35:06

Message:
Here is a good place to start.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/featured_documents/magna_carta/magna_carta.html
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Sunday, September 01, 2002 at 05:45:23

Message:
and here:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/featured_documents/magna_carta/magna_carta_history.html
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Sunday, September 01, 2002 at 16:23:30

Message:
Ok, Observer, I read the magna carta history and I understand.

There is a phrase transcribed bellow:

"...The U.S. Constitution is not a static document. Like Magna Carta, it has been interpreted and reinterpreted throughout the years. This has allowed the Constitution to become the longest-lasting constitution in the world and a model for those penned by other nations. Through judicial review and amendment, it has evolved so that today Americans--regardless of gender, race, or creed--can enjoy the liberties and protection it guarantees. Just as Magna Carta stood as a bulwark against tyranny in England, the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights today serve similar roles, protecting the individual freedoms of all Americans against arbitrary and capricious rule..."

If the U.S. Constitution is not a static document. Like Magna Carta, why the congress of the USA not change part of the constituion in relation of Electoral College? Why don´t take out this part and leave the American people decide directly who must be the president of the USA in only the direct vote? Democracy: Of the people to the people and by the people.



RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Sunday, September 01, 2002 at 16:59:05

Message:
Well... Observer, I think that we are finishing this debate where we discussed many topics about the civilization.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Sunday, September 01, 2002 at 17:46:05

Message:
Hello Brazilian:

I know I said I would not write more, but you asked a question. As best as I can, I will try to answer your question.

The phrase you transcribed is easy to misunderstand. The sentences:

"...The U.S. Constitution is not a static document. Like Magna Carta, it has been interpreted and reinterpreted throughout the years....."

declare that the US Constitution is not static, and the Magna Carta is not static. Both the US Constitution and the Magna Carta are interpreted and reinterpreted (not rewritten) throughout the years.

Regarding your question about the Electoral College: The US government is a Republic. It is not a pure democracy. The effect of the electoral college (designed into the Republic) is to be certain that states with low population have some power and are not completely dominated by states with large population. If not for the Electoral College, only states with large population would have power when choosing the president.

The US Congress is similar. The "House Of Representatives" is distributed by population. But, the "Senate" is distributed by states (each state has two senators whether large population or small population).

Cheers.

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Sunday, September 01, 2002 at 23:11:02

Message:
Observer,

Congratulations. You are one of the few Americans, of which really know the actual American Political System and the actual elections political system in the USA.

You wrote:

" ...Regarding your question about the Electoral College: The US government is a Republic. It is not a pure democracy. The effect of the electoral college (designed into the Republic) is to be certain that states with low population have some power and are not completely dominated by states with large population. If not for the Electoral College, only states with large population would have power when choosing the president.
The US Congress is similar. The "House Of Representatives" is distributed by population. But, the "Senate" is distributed by states (each state has two senators whether large population or small population)..."

What is your opinion if the US Congress accept to do a plebiscite asking to the American population decide if the people want to continue with the actual political system with an Electoral College or the people want that the Electoral College be taken out of the political system?

Remember what ocurred in the last US presidential election.

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Monday, September 02, 2002 at 08:21:34

Message:
Brazilian:

Despite the unusual way events occurred, I was proud of the way the transition of power from Bill Clinton to George Bush occurred. It occurred without a war. Despite the capricious actions of individual people, the Republic (as outlined by the Constitution) survived. Transition of power occured without civil war.

I believe the Electoral College is a good part of the arcitecture of our Republic. It assures presidential candidates do not ignore the concerns of states with small populations. If not for the Electoral college (which gives states with small populations more power than their population would suggest), it would be possible to win the presidency by winning only the votes of people who lived near big cities (New York City, LA, San Francisco, Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Miami and Atlanta .... etc ....). Only the big cities would be important. The electoral college assures the rural areas have some say in the direction of the country.

cheers
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Monday, September 02, 2002 at 16:23:31

Message:
Well, observer, at least you need to agree that the actual ballots used in Florida, as well as in others states is a shame to the USA, whose country always was a bigger example to be given in terms of democracy all the world. In my opinion, all the state of the Florida should be made a new general presidential election and being very well acompanied for members of all political parties envolved in that election. This did not ocurr and the Supreme Court showed be very political and pending to the side of republicans, of which predomine in the Supreme Court. That went a shame too.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Monday, September 02, 2002 at 17:38:36

Message:
Brazilian:

Yes, it is a shame that some areas (mostly Democratically controlled areas of Florida) did such a poor job of counting ballots. Especially Palm-Beach, a very rich part of Florida, yet they could not count votes!!!!!!

The US Constitution helps to protect us from ruthless people gaining too much power. The US Constitution helps to protect us from the capriciousness of pure-democracy. And the US Constitution helps to protect us from the stupidity of fools, like those in Florida.

I am glad the counting ended ...... Not because Bush won .... but because those who tried to manipulat everything to their advantage (Al Gore), lost.

Your way of thinking is common, but it is very narrow. You seem to hold democracy to be more important than fairness, and rule of law. If the counting continued, the election would have been void and in violation of the law as defined by the Constitution.

It seems that you believe in pure democracy. It seems to me that you probubly hold democracy to be more important than property rights. Are you a communist?

I am certain that a pure democracy would vote to take away my house on one day, and then vote to demand that I build a new one on the next. Then this pure democracy may vote to steal my car from me. And then vote to put me in jail for not volunteering to give my car away.

I remember reading about pure democracy during the French revolution. Many people were sacrificed on the altar to the goddes of "reason" (the guillotine).
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Monday, September 02, 2002 at 23:50:53

Message:
Observer,

In Brazil the vote is direct. There is not an Electoral College. About the distribution of congressmen and senators are proportional the quantity of states of which represent in the Federal Congress. Brazil is a Federal Republic, federalized in states. Brazilian people vote directly to mayors, town councillors, state congressmen, governors, federal congressmen, senators and the president. All in direct votes and there is nothing of Electoral College. The ballot boxes are totally eletronic where you vote eletronically (and not what the world saw to happen in Florida...). All the votes in general elections in Brazil are registered eletronically and the own the New York Times Newspaper did a big article prasing the modern system adoted by the Federal Government of Brazil about the elections in all political segments.

What ocurred in Fla in the last elections was a shame and should have been made a new general election in all the state of Florida and inclusive to take out any doubts what ocurred.

Observer wrote:
" ...It seems to me that you probubly hold democracy to be more important than property rights. Are you a communist?..."

It is ridiculous and to be stupid. Democracy is a political system where the people vote their representatives and of which should be always voting directly. Indirect vote is not a complete democracy. Electoral College is not a real democracy. About the property rights. I´m completely in favour. I´m favour of private properties and that the government interfere the less possible in grand part of the areas. I´m favour of the economic liberalism of the economy and being that the state interfere the less possible in this area.

I think that you don´t know exactly what is the word: Communism or what is to be a communist. Your phrase remember the time of Senator Joseph Mc Carthy persecuting or harassing intelectuals, artists, and other people of which were agaisnt the political model system used in that time. Until Charles Chaplin was a victim of that political repression time.

Observer wrote:

" ...I am certain that a pure democracy would vote to take away my house on one day, and then vote to demand that I build a new one on the next. Then this pure democracy may vote to steal my car from me. And then vote to put me in jail for not volunteering to give my car away.
I remember reading about pure democracy during the French revolution. Many people were sacrificed on the altar to the goddes of "reason" (the guillotine)." ...

The judicial system is separate system of the legislative system and there is the constitution of which is followed. You are making a big confusion and mixing a political system to vote directly and with property rights of which exist in any state of law. These are different things. About the French Revolution was to take out the king of the power and to finish with a small real bourgeoisie. There is a revolution and where the people rebeled against the tyranny of the king of France.

Don´t make a tempest in the glass of water. Not make confusion and not mix the things.

Other thing: In Brazil we have a political multipartidarism where any political parties have the chance to govern the country. It is not a bipartidarism where exist only an alternance of two political parties in the power.

In a communist regime not exist multipartidarism elections and not exist property rights and any thing is the property of the state and not exist freedom of speech and the press.

In Brazil we have democracy with direct votation only, multipartidarism elections, property rights, freedom of speech and without a veiled political repression.

We have many problems (mainly economical and social problems), but we have a true democracy today and always had property rights.



RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Tuesday, September 03, 2002 at 03:52:20

Message:
Brazilian:
Your post was interesting. I was especially glad to hear about the electronic voting equipment. We in the USA should use something similar. Especially in Florida. Hopefully Florida (especially the fools in Palm-Beach) will have this implemented soon.

Regarding my "Comunistic" comments.
Did you see problems with the way the Supreme Court decided to handle things as a poor implementation of "rule of law"? If so, what law?

Or, did you see problems because your guy (Al Gore), and the guy (Al Gore) supported by the New York Times and the rest of the liberal press did not win???

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Tuesday, September 03, 2002 at 04:06:52

Message:
Also, Brazilian,
I question respect for property rights in Brazil.

Lula sounds like he wants to federalize a lot of private property in Brazil.

He sounds like a communist to me. He will take property away from some people, and give it to others (all the people), in order to win votes.

He sounds like a communist because of what he says he wants to do.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Tuesday, September 03, 2002 at 23:18:29

Message:
..." Did you see problems with the way the Supreme Court decided to handle things as a poor implementation of "rule of law"? If so, what law?"...

Remember that the same Supreme Court approved that some electoral districts were to be made a new recounting of votes. When the thing was showing more and more " faults " in various districts, then the SAME Supreme Court decided to STOP the recounting of votes in a political decision and mainly when the democratic party showed that there were more " faults " shown in other electoral districts and stated for Republican volunteers in that election.

In my opinion, as well as in the opinion of the press and public opinion of the USA should be made a NEW PRESIDENTIAL GENERAL ELECTION in all state of the Florida to decide in a clear manner who was the real winner in that state. But, this did not happen and all the world saw that big shame to happen. The decision of Supreme Court was totally political. The best manner to decide was to be made a new election in all state of the Florida and not to do what they did.

..." Or, did you see problems because your guy (Al Gore), and the guy (Al Gore) supported by the New York Times and the rest of the liberal press did not win???"...

Observer... Come on... Are you saying that the last presidential elections made in the USA was without problems and any thing was perfect and there was not errors, faults, problems in ballots in Florida? Come on... give me a break. The big problem to be analysed is the big institutional problem where the own Supreme Court of the USA remembered a " Republic of Bananas decision " giving that decision in favour of Republicans and against the Democrats. The best thing to do in that time was to do a new general presidential elections in all state of Florida and wait a new and accurated result and this did not happen. Who decided the election was not the people of Florida, but only a small group of Ministers of a Supreme Court of which many were nominated for president republicans in the past.

..." I question respect for property rights in Brazil.
Lula sounds like he wants to federalize a lot of private property in Brazil.
He sounds like a communist to me. He will take property away from some people, and give it to others (all the people), in order to win votes.
He sounds like a communist because of what he says he wants to do."...

Lula is a left political and being that he was in the past a workman of assembly of cars and he was also a president of a metalurgy sindicate in the industrial region of ABC (Santo André, São Bernardo do Campo and São Caetano) where are located the bigger assemblies of cars of Brazil. After he left to be a workman and president of a sindicate and became a professional political man where the PT (Partido dos Trabalhadores) Work Party pays a salary monthly to him only to do speechs and speak as a parrot what the Petistas (people from the Work Party) send him to speak. Conclusion: He is only an artist of which play the interests from the petistas intelectuals, left economists, etc of the party. In the recent past, the PT still followed the radical faction of the party of which has still radical left ideas, but today the PT has changed a lot the political direction and the vice of Lula is an rich undertaker and political from a political party of the Assembly of the God and evangelical groups. Can you imagine this? This show that Lula wants to become president of any way and he has done political alliances with any political and less Collor de Mello.

Today, pratically don´t exist anymore ideologies in these political parties in Brazil and all only want to enter in the power and to enjoy of the power while they can enjoy. The better word to classificate the actual Brazilian politics in Brazil and without any exception are: Opportunistics.

The words are: Money and power and nothing more.

By the way. The Brazil has a constitution and state of law and a Supreme Court of which is independent of the legislative and executive powers. If any person in the power to try to tear the constitutional and private properties, then this person will have an impeachment and will have to get out of the power, case contrary the Army enters in the power to restore the order and the state of law and to convoke new general presidential elections.

About the communism. This pratically finished in almost all the world and the few communist regimes of which continue to exist are each day more die down. The China is only a communist in terms of politic with only an unique political party, but the economy is capitalist.

What is happening in all Latin America is that the Latin American people is seeing that the populism not solve the problems of a society. Look what is happen with Argentina, Peru, Venezuela with a clown as president of the country, as well as other countries have their populists presidents.

The Brazilian people is much more politically mature and the people want consistent economical and social projects in the a reality of facts and not anymore populistics promises of which the candidates cannot comply. Lula knows very well what he can do and what he cannot do, case contrary he will not have any political support of the congress and a possible administration his would become a tremendous failure.

In spite of the criticals and political researches published. I think that the José Serra is still the best option to be the next president of the Brazil. The others are too much populists and oportunistics (inclusive Lula who did alliance with a lot of political parties and inclusive the church of Edir Macedo).

José Serra is really the best candidate and he knows very well the government system and he is an intelligent man. He is not a parrot of which others send you speak and you only speak what they sent you tell...

By the way, Fernando Henrique could inclusive to be considered a true statesman for all what he did to the Brazil in these last 8 years. Ok. There are many things wrong, but he did many things of which the others NEVER did and only for this reason he desires a lot of consideration as statesman and using a liberal politic of economy.


RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Wednesday, September 04, 2002 at 03:54:54

Message:
Brazilian:

your words

"Remember that the same Supreme Court approved that some electoral districts were to be made a new recounting of votes. When the thing was showing more and more "faults " in various districts, then the SAME Supreme Court decided to STOP the recounting of votes in a political decision and mainly when the democratic party showed that there were more "faults " shown in other electoral districts and stated for Republican volunteers in that election. "

Shows just how manipulated you are by the biased (unobjective) newspapers of the USA.

In, fact, after recounting began it became clear that there was a problem not only undercounts, but also with over-counts (more than two chads punched). The Democratic party did not want to include the effects of overcounts when the original call for a re-count began and did everything possible to prevent the acknowledgment of the overcounts. The Democrats did not want to include the over-counted chads because over-counted chads did not help their cause.

The supreme court halted the recount because it became clear that it would have been necessary to recount every ballot in the state of Florida (in order to assure that both over-counts and undercounts were properly addressed. Such a recount would have delayed the reporting of the results until well after the date (stipulated by law) when the voting results needed to be reported.

I understand how your thinking works ....

count and count ... and count again until you get the result you want. If you don't get the result you want ..... continue counting.


Regarding Lula:
All the words by you cannot change the words of Lula. Lula has stated that he desires to take property away from some and give some of it the Government and some of it to other private people. He is a communist (whether others call him that or not does not matter). His words indicate what he wants to do. What he wants to do makes the label "communist" appropriate.

By the way .... communism is still a desired form of government for many college professors and newspaper editors (i.e., the NY Times) in the USA.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Wednesday, September 04, 2002 at 05:33:35

Message:
" ...count and count ... and count again until you get the result you want. If you don't get the result you want ..... continue counting." ...

I prefer to say: A new general presidential election in the state of Florida would have solved any type of problems and would take any type of doubts in both sides.

" ...Regarding Lula:
All the words by you cannot change the words of Lula. Lula has stated that he desires to take property away from some and give some of it the Government and some of it to other private people. He is a communist (whether others call him that or not does not matter). His words indicate what he wants to do. What he wants to do makes the label "communist" appropriate.
By the way .... communism is still a desired form of government for many college professors and newspaper editors (i.e., the NY Times) in the USA."...

The Brazilian constitution and the state of law, as well as the national congress exist in Brazil and today the basic institutions are working in fact in Brazil. Lula, as well as any others candidates to the president of the Brazil MUST follow the constitution and the laws. For example: What Fernando Collor did in 1991 confiscating temporary all the bank accounts and savings of all the Brazilian people, today it is not possible to happen again. The Supreme Court will not permit this type of authoritarism again. The Brazilian people will not accept this type of authoritarism again. For this reason, any candidate of the presidential elections in Brazil MUST follow the law and the state of law today in Brazil is strong and can not be considered any more a " Republic of Bananas " . By the way, the Brazilian Army is awaken with all political directions of which exist from the main candidates of the next president of the Brazil.

By the way, remember that the vice-president candidate of the Lula is an rich undertaker and of which is from the political party of Evangelical churches.

" ...communism is still a desired form of government many college professors and newspaper editors (i.e., the NY Times) in the USA."...

To be a desired form of government to many college professors and newspaper editors in the USA it is not a problem. Each person has the right to have the own opinion and freedom of speech. But, in practical terms what dominate the macro policies in any country of the world is the market: money and not any more ideologies and utopias desired for some college professors and other alienated people. Who sends in the world is the market and thus the money. Wars are made for commercial and financial interests: money. If a new " little " war to happen in Iraque again, then you will see how the cost of crude petrol will grow in some hours and gasoline cost will grow in all gas stations of the USA and in consequence in all the world. Who interest this increase of prices in the gasoline?...









RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Wednesday, September 04, 2002 at 12:37:17

Message:
Hello Brazilian:

Regarding Florida:
A new general election would have been, ..... you may have guessed it ....., AGAINST THE LAW!!! That is why the Supreme Court did the correct thing. The Supreme Court did not try to write new law. .

Regarding Brazil its Constitution and the Rule of Law:
I hope you are correct.

Regarding everyone having a right to voice their opinion:
I agree, totaly.

Regarding "practical terms that dominate the macro policies in any country of the world":
Short term .... you are correct .... it is money ......
Long term .... you are not correct ...... The correct aswer is ideology ....... economic power (money) flows from ideology (culture, world view ....... i.e. respect for rule of law, respect for all people and the world we live in, respect for property rights, and binding documents such as Magna Carta, The US Constitution, etc. ...)

Regarding Iraq:
We shall soon learn whether it is necessary to remove the dictator Sadam Hussein who is a dictator who used poison gas on his own people (the Kurds). If there is proof that he is developing poison gas or nuclear wepons to be used against the USA or Europe, I believe it would be wise to have a war against him ...... If gas prices go up, well that is too bad ..... it may be necessary to let gas prices go up, because it may be necessary to remove Sadam Hussain.


RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Thursday, September 05, 2002 at 08:58:37

Message:
Well... Observer... All this final discussion have an unique reason as base: MONEY. This is that change the things in any part of the world. Maybe, the last presidential elections, which ocurred in the USA serve as example to the next elections and what must be made to avoid the faults ocurred in the last general election.

About the Brazil. This country will continue to grow and to have the social and economical problems and something can better. Today there is a strong rule of state and any governator must follow.

About the Freedom of Speech, Brazil is an example today.

About the ideology, actually is " Moneology " only.

About the Iraq:
Only more a small dictator, as well as many others of which exist in all the world. If there will be more a new " little " war, so... good to the petroleum companies and others petroleum countries in terms of prices. Bad to all the countries dependent of importation of petroleum.



RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Thursday, September 05, 2002 at 10:48:47

Message:
Brazilian

I am not sure I understand the meaning of your words.

I think I am less cynical than you are.

However, getting back to the issue of poverty and the causes of poverty.

It seems to me that societies that value and practice an ideology that values self discipline, respect for other people, respect for the world we live in, respect for rule of law, and respect for property rights are economically stronger (over the long term) than countries that are not built on these ideas (I.E. England, USA, etc .....).

Over the short term these countries (USA, and England for example) will experience problems (over the short term). The coming war with the dictator of Iraq will cause problems (including economic problems) in the USA. But these problems are small compared to the long term problems that will result if the dictator is free to throw his chemical weapons at us (as he did to his own people, the Kurds).

RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Thursday, September 05, 2002 at 12:45:47

Message:
I think that you should be more preocupated is with the many Bin Ladens and fanatic suicides xiitas islamics that exist and produce terrorists attacks in the center of NY and other big cities in the USA, than a small dictator who is there in Iraq and the Bush´s father already failed one time to take away Saddan Hussein of the power there. This new " little " war is a financial interest from the belical industry of the USA and until the multinationals big companies of petroleum. Only money envolved in some big coorporations of belical industry and petroleum industry. It is not necessary a war to depose Saddan Hussein. If George Bush really wants to do this, then only the CIA is capable to do a militar coup " coup d´état " bribering the militar officials near the Saddan Hussein and ready. But, the interests are others, but George Bush needs to have the support of the big majority of the American population to attack again Iraq. There is possibly also a small vengeance where the son wants to revenge the fail of the father some years ago, which did not depose Saddain Hussein of the power and now he wants to do as a " gift " to the Bush´s father.
Well... There is a good bussiness to some corporations of petroleum and belical industry of the USA. Good money and good profit too. If there is a war, good money and good profit to them.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Thursday, September 05, 2002 at 13:24:19

Message:
There are many dictators that do not concern me from a self defense point of view. However, Sadam Hussein is a dictator that concerns me. If this dictator has the technical power at his hands to launce missiles and nuclear weapons at the USA, he will.

If it can be proven he has this capability, I will support all out war against him.

There are many other issues that are also true. The sky is blue, it is important to drink water, exercise is important for strong muscles, it is fun to listen to good music, .... etc ....etc ....etc ..... but, I do not care about these things when it comes to the dictator Sadam.

What matters to me is this: If this dictator (Sadam) has the technical power at his hands to launce missiles and nuclear weapons at the USA, I will support all out war against him.


RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Thursday, September 05, 2002 at 22:59:10

Message:
I understand, observer, but the CIA could do the work easily there. It is not necessary to give a " belical show ". Do you understand? Save money, troops and logistic. Put the CIA in the action and nothing more.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Friday, September 06, 2002 at 03:46:47

Message:
Brazilian:

Even if the CIA does the job, there will be the problem of what to do after Sadam is gone. In Iraq, power comes from the center (Sadam). There is no power distributed throughout the country. When Sadam is gone, ground troops from the UN or USA will be needed to prevent anarchy until a stable government (hopefully with distributed power in the hands of many groups of people) is set up.

Further, I suspect, if the CIA could have done it, they would have already done it.

I do not want this war. I dread this war. But, I think this war is necessary.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Friday, September 06, 2002 at 04:00:36

Message:
Note, Brazilian, in the past there was hope that Sadam could be defeated by his own people. This does not appear to be true any more. Sadam kills anyone in his government that is not family.

Note, also, the Kurds (in the north) are not able to do it. They are spending all their energy on fighting the Taliban (the Taliban have moved into Kurd territory after leaving Afghanistan).
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by Brazilian
On Friday, September 06, 2002 at 15:49:23

Message:
What mess!
This is the middle east.
RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by ken
On Monday, November 25, 2002 at 01:17:49

Message:
What is necessary for one Canadian male, to marry a woman living in Sao Paulo?
Would I be safe, with her trust, and honesty, to visit, for the prospect of marriage?
What website provides information with these issues?


RE: NorthAmerican & European men -and- Brazilian women
Posted by an observer
On Thursday, January 09, 2003 at 10:03:55

Message:
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