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Subject: Latina


Posted by Po
On Monday, September 16, 2002 at 18:46:07

Message:
Hello all.

The following article is in the most recent issue of Brazzil. I think it borders on pointless, but I'd like to hear other opinions - maybe I'm missing something. (This article can also be accessed from Brazzil's main page.)

==================================================

Brazzil
September 2002

The Latina Advantage
Latina women coming to the United States from less than optimal economic backgrounds can, if they play their cards right, wind up meeting a male of substantial economic means. By William Javier Nelson

A very attractive woman paraded herself before us, with a great deal of self-admiration, as she boarded the airplane (we were all loading the airplane so we welcomed the diversion). Most of us stopped what we were doing to stare at her, all the more so as she seemed to be of Latin American origin. I lazily glanced up, took note, and resumed working.

"What would she be in the Dominican Republic, Javier?" one of my buddies asked me.

"A five."

We all chuckled. So concluded a ritual, which no doubt other Latino guys (like me) have participated in. You see, Latina women, in case one hasn't heard, are extremely attractive and a trip to the Dominican Republic (my home) or Brazil (yours) yields an array of stunningly beautiful women. Fortunately (for men in those countries), that counts for great opportunities of meeting winsome females—unfortunately (for women in those countries), it means competition from other stunningly beautiful women. However, Latina (Brazilian, etc.) women can take heart. If they can somehow get to the United States things will look up considerably, for the secret has long been out: Latinas are in.

Criolla women compare quite favorably to gringas in terms of beauty. Maybe it's the mixture of bloods, maybe it's the permanent tan, maybe it's the sensuality. I don't know. What I do know is that I have seen gringos falling for Latina women in the U.S. who wouldn't turn a head in Santo Domingo, Bahia or São Paulo. If that alone doesn't translate into a favorable situation, there is also this thing called the Marriage Gradient, which makes romantic liaisons with Latina women much easier than for Latino men.

The Marriage Gradient stands for a custom quite common in the United States: Men habitually marry women of a lower economic and/or occupational status than them. This means that it is quite acceptable for a male engineer to marry a female secretary. But it is rare that a female lawyer would marry a male gardener. What this all means is that Latina women coming to the United States from less than optimal economic backgrounds can, if they play their cards right, wind up meeting a male of substantial economic means. Sociologists have long commented on this phenomenon, noting that Latino men in the U.S. are usually far more alienated from the U.S. mainstream than Latina women.

Moreover, intermarriage between Anglo-Saxons and people of Latin American ancestry is higher than almost every other combination—and the great bulk of those marriages involve Latinas and gringos. [As Brazil has a number of rich folks who get to come to the U.S., the Marriage Gradient would still operate, if for no other reason than the fact that the U.S., wealthy as it is, possesses a number of gringos even richer than most brasileiras.]

This was brought home to me once at the airport. Two gringos were ordering a meal and the Latina waitresses were getting along quite well with them—almost to the point of being asked out. Now these guys were both passengers, and both quite well-fixed.

Right now, some Latina bombshells of note include Salma Hayek, Mia Maestro and Jennifer Lopez. Quite attractive to be sure—but any brasileiro knows that women like that positively abound in Brazil.

So, if you have a young sister or daughter who is contemplating visiting the United States, prepare for her vision of her beauty to get a significant enhancement. Will it make her more conceited? Not if you can get her back home again.

William Javier Nelson, holds a Duke Ph.D. in Sociology and is of Dominican nationality. Letters (friendly or hostile, Spanish or English) can be addressed to: cibbaeno2@aol.com

============================

What's the point? Is he happy for latin women because of the increased opportunity for economic enhancement, or is he sad for latin men and the economic prejudices they face, or is this some kind of anti-gringo commentary?

Po.

RE: Latina
Posted by bonkers
On Monday, September 16, 2002 at 20:39:16

Message:
looks like just another typical loopy, disjointed, and incoherent brazzil.com article...
RE: Latina
Posted by braslvr
On Monday, September 16, 2002 at 21:32:50

Message:
I read the article. He has a different style of writing, but I thought the piece rather "hit the nail on the head". But that's me. I know countless American men who do not find Latina women to be inherently beautiful, instead preferring albino blonde types, with silicon implants. To each his own.
RE: Latina
Posted by Patinho
On Monday, September 16, 2002 at 23:46:12

Message:
Although I agree with alot of what he wrote, I also agree with BRASLVR's comment "to each his own".
I ALSO agree with PO, it sounds like he was just putting his "thoughts" on paper. Sure, I have thought some of the same things, but whether those thoughts would make a good article in a magazine, I think not.
Generally, articles in print have certain goals; to entertain or inform. This article does neither. Sure, I have written a couple of things in my life that made no sense that I just wanted to see how they looked on paper, from a journal to poetry. However, I do not publish these ramblings (organized or not) for the world to see.
So, I agree... the article is pointless... it neither informs nor entertains. I guess most of these posts fall in that category as well... (maybe even this one). But that is the GOAL of a forum... to inform, entertain, AND to shout opinions. So.. I am going to shut up now.
RE: Latina
Posted by Po
On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 06:52:52

Message:
Patinho is right - an article should either
entertain or inform, and William Javier Nelson,
Ph.D., does neither.

Nelson says: "Right now, some Latina
bombshells of note include Salma Hayek, Mia
Maestro and Jennifer Lopez. Quite attractive to
be sure—but any brasileiro knows that
women like that positively abound in Brazil."
Gee, I didn't know there were women who
"abound" in Brazil that can act, sing, dance,
and speak English proficiently, and that all
their abilities are marketable to a U.S.
audience. If he's talking about their looks, I
don't disagree. There are women here (in
New York City) on the streets that I see every
day that are better looking than Lopez, et. al,
but chances are they can't act, sing, etc. Those
latina women Nelson mentions are not
successful because of their looks alone, they
are successful because they can do many
things at least moderately well (especially in
the case of Lopez - she's not a great singer,
actress, or dancer, but she does many things
decently, and she's easy on the eyes), and it is
insulting to these women's abilities for Nelson
to suggest otherwise.

Po.
RE: Latina
Posted by an observer
On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 08:46:36

Message:
This subject has facinated me for a few years now. Therefore, I thought the article was interesting but, to me, seemed to miss the point.

He seemd to be trying to force people to accept a couple of premises (which I think is a false premises), while overlooking the real issue.

The false premises consist of:

1)Latin women are somehow suddenly “in” in American society.

2)American culture is unique in exhibiting the tendency for economically more stable (usually older) men to pursue younger women of less substantial economic means (the so called The Marriage Gradient).

Although there is nothing to support the above two premises (and I beleive they are false), his conclusion, which he believes follows from the two premises:

“........if you have a young sister or daughter (from Brazil) who is contemplating visiting the United States, prepare for her vision of her beauty to get a significant enhancement........ “

is correct.

The real cause of the phenomenon (his conclusion) is demographics. In Europe and North America, there are many more older men than there are younger women. The opposite is currently true in Brazil. However, within 15 years, the inversion of the population pyramid, a phenomenon which has afflicted Japan and Europe for several years (as zero population growth was pushed by the UN, first on Italy and Japan immediately after WWII, and then on the rest of the world, and is now afflicting the USA) will be in full force within Brazil.

RE: Latina
Posted by Po
On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 09:34:34

Message:
Observer,

I agree that his premises are false, but I'm not
sure the conclusion he draws is false either. I
just think he IMPLIES that latinas are
somehow intrisically more beautiful than other
races/ethnicites, OR, he at least implies that
gringos find latinas beautiful who would be
considered average in latin America. I agree
with the latter, but that occurrance is not
unique to latinas/gringos; it's just the "exotic"
notion in general.

For instance, I'm an average-looking white guy
(of Irish/German descent), but when I go to
Brazil (about three months of every year) on
business, I have beautiful latinas hitting on
me who would likely never look at me in the
States. Why? because they don't run into guys
with blue eyes and blond (albeit thinning!) hair
often, and it's "different" for them. It certainly
doesn't mean Gringos are "more attractive"
than latin-American men, but Dr. Nelson might
want us to think so.

The stuff you say about population in Brazil is
very interesting - this is stuff I wish the author
would've delved into in his article.

Po.
RE: Latina
Posted by an observer
On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 18:28:59

Message:
Po:

I am an average looking (possibly less than average looking) white American man. I also have noticed that women from (and located within) Brazil find me more attractive than women from (or located within the USA).

But, I think this, also, is primarily a result of demographics of age distribution.

Did you notice that you were a rare commodity down there, not only because you have blue eyes and fair skin, but also because you have thinning hair (are older).

Not only are a higher proportion of women in Brazil young with beautiful bodies (compared to USA). But, there is a higher proportion of men in Brazil who are young with strong hard bodies.

Your age is a commodity in Brazil, not only because you have money and maturity (and can possibly support a family), but also because you are in an age group that is small compared to the general Brazilian population.

Brazilian women are not necessarily more physically attractive than a young healthy American woman. But, in Brazil she may be just average, because there are MANY beautiful YOUNG women in the general population. In the USA she is gorgeous because there FEW beautiful YOUNG women in the general population.

Also, remember where the so called The Marriage Gradient comes from. In general, women traditionally subconsciously look for a man who can protect a family from the outside world (i.e., support a family, this generally means an older man), while she is nurturing the family. Also, in general a man is looking for a woman who can have and nurture children (this generally means a younger man).

The problem for you (and me) in the USA is that guys like us are dime a dozen compared to number of young women in the USA. This is a result of the nverted population pyramid, population implosion.


RE: Latina
Posted by an observer
On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 18:31:41

Message:
change last sentence of second to last paragraph to :

Also, in general a man is looking for a woman who can have and nurture children (this generally means a younger woman).


RE: Latina
Posted by Silvio
On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 19:52:09

Message:
Did those girls blow you?

If so this gringo will take a jingo down to rio to get his dingo dipped in some lipsticko.
RE: Latina
Posted by Po
On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 21:06:43

Message:
An observer,

You make some really interesting observations about age. I don't doubt you're right about older people being fewer in numbers in Brazil, but do you have any figures? (I'm curious to know.) I don't doubt that age does play a part in it, and I can't disprove what you say, but I don't agree with your statement that the ease a white guy has hooking up in Brazil is "primarily a result of demographics and age distribution." The "primarily" is what I have a hard time with. (BTW, I agree 100% with your second-to-last paragraph regarding what women and men instinctually look for in a mate.)

I originally brought up the author's "conclusion" to his article, which states: "if you have a young sister or daughter (from Brazil) who is contemplating visiting the United States, prepare for her vision of her beauty to get a significant enhancement." I pointed out that this conclusion (when coupled with the rest of his argument) implies that latinas are somehow intrisically more beautiful than other races/ethnicites, OR, he at least implies that gringos find latinas beautiful who would be considered average in latin America. Since the author isn't clear on which one he means, I'm saying that (1) is pure bunk (more nicely put, beauty is in the eye of the beholder) and (2) is correct, but my explanation is that it's the "exotic" notion in general that explains it. (I don't really feel like arguing (1), as this would lead to a very murky aesthetic discussion on the question: "what is beauty?")

I hate to appeal to relativism, but I don't see any other way to explain it. For example, your statement "Brazilian women are not necessarily more physically attractive than a young healthy American woman. But, in Brazil she may be just average, because there are MANY beautiful YOUNG women in the general population," could be argued by pointing out another country that has a huge number of young women: Ireland. I've also been to Ireland many times, and I don't find the women there nearly as attractive as South American women, in general. This in no way means that Irish women are "less attractive" than latinas in any objective sense; it only means that Irish women, though they are many in Ireland, are not as attractive to me as Brazilian women. But put one of those Irish women in Manaus or Salvador, and what will the Brazilian men think?

You could very well be right about age, observer. It's a new theory to me, and I haven't had time to think about it yet. I do find it compelling, on first glance -- I've never really thought of age distribution before. I'd like to hear more of your observations.

Po.
RE: Latina
Posted by Brazilian
On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 21:23:23

Message:
Silvio,

Observer has been an " expert " in Brazilian women, population growing and world overpopulation. By the way, he is an extreme and radical right wing against the New York Times and direct Democracy. In Brazil, Brazilians vote in direct ellections (no Electoral College available). But, Observer defends the Electoral College in the USA.
RE: Latina
Posted by Brazilian
On Tuesday, September 17, 2002 at 21:23:37

Message:
Silvio,

Observer has been an " expert " in Brazilian women, population growing and world overpopulation. By the way, he is an extreme and radical right wing against the New York Times and direct Democracy. In Brazil, Brazilians vote in direct ellections (no Electoral College available). But, Observer defends the Electoral College in the USA.
RE: Latina
Posted by an observer
On Wednesday, September 18, 2002 at 05:13:25

Message:
hm ..... interesting ......Brazilian.

You can call me anything you want. And I guess you will.

I would prefer you question whether my arguments are sound and can stand up to criticism. But it seems you would rather stifle debate by labeling those who do not support the ideological position of the NY Times to be "radical right wing".

My arguments can stand up to criticism or they cannot.

Your arguments can stand up to criticism or they cannot.

But, in the spirit of name calling (which you began). I will label you to be "a little boy with an undisciplined mind".

P.S. I am reluctant to call my self an expert on anything. But, thankyou for you high praise.

cheers

RE: Latina
Posted by an observer
On Wednesday, September 18, 2002 at 11:19:40

Message:
Po:

Your point about Ireland is interesting. And,I suspect, has some merit.

FYI: Here is a link regarding population pyrimids you may find interesting.

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idbpyr.html

Note, that the inverted population pyramid for the USA is less pronounced than it would be if not for huge immigration.

RE: Latina
Posted by Brazilian
On Wednesday, September 18, 2002 at 17:50:55

Message:
Observer wrote:

..." I will label you to be "a little boy with an undisciplined mind "....

..." P.S. I am reluctant to call my self an expert on anything. But, thank you for you high praise."...

Welcome! Observer! Ha, ha, ha... (laughing..) I´m not going to stifle this debate, but only to test your humour! Go ahead. I know that you love this matter.



RE: Latina
Posted by Quayle
On Wednesday, September 18, 2002 at 18:15:50

Message:
This debate makes no sense, even less sense than the actual article. I don't remember reading anything in the guys article about the age of brazilian women??? I looked at the population pyramids and that yielded nothing. They were useless to me. What is your point observer??? Are you saying that there are not many young women in America???. ---Quayle

/s


RE: Latina
Posted by an observer
On Wednesday, September 18, 2002 at 19:02:41

Message:
My point is:
I agree with the authors conclusions, but not the premises he claims results in his conclusions. It seems to me that the conclusions result from issues (premises) not discussed by the author (as you have noted). One of those issues is the demographics of age.
RE: Latina
Posted by an observer
On Wednesday, September 18, 2002 at 19:29:18

Message:
Brazilian:
Good to hear from you. And, glad to see that you have the strength to take a punch (in writing). Yes, it is true that this issue amazes me. People fascinate me. And the differences between the USA and Brazil regarding the interaction of men and women amazes me.

My humor is OK .... maybe some times I am too sensitive. ..... forgive me ....
It is difficult to hold the opinions I hold in an environment (Boston Massachusetts USA) where it is assumed that every intelligent person is as liberal as the NY Times (I think the NY Times is good at propaganda, and not good at reporting the news).

You and I seem to have different thinking regarding many issues.

I suspect that you come to your positions after careful thought.

Please understand that I have come to my positions after careful thought.

I do not claim to be a perfect thinker. But, I sincerely try to seek the truth.

You seem to be fascinated by the American electoral college. I would enjoy discussing the American electoral college with a Brazilian (such as yourself) . I will write something (and start a new thread) shortly.

cheers.
RE: Latina
Posted by Brazilian
On Wednesday, September 18, 2002 at 20:07:32

Message:
Observer wrote:

..." It is difficult to hold the opinions I hold in an environment (Boston Massachusetts USA) where it is assumed that every intelligent person is as liberal as the NY Times (I think the NY Times is good at propaganda, and not good at reporting the news). " ...

Observer, you chose the northeast cost to live! Of course that you only will find liberal people and not hillbillies or yokels, hicks, etc of south and center of the USA. By the way, in Boston you find good Portuguese food restaurants, no? The Portuguese colony is big in Boston, no?

I would like to know the opinion of Randy, who likes to drink a " caipirinha " in a bar in New York City.

By the way, I´m Brazilian, but before to be a Brazilian, I´m a Paulistano from São Paulo City, State of São Paulo and the Best Newspaper in Brazil is: " O ESTADO DE SP ", the rest is rest.
RE: Latina
Posted by an observer
On Thursday, September 19, 2002 at 06:25:56

Message:
Yes Brazilian, I was born and have lived my whole life (so far) in the Boston area.

A question for you: Do you believe that people who think clearly and thoroughly (i.e. most conservatives; NOTE: I think that most liberals and readers of the NY Times lack the ability to think clearly) are yokels and hicks????

Yes there are many Brazilians in the Boston area.


p.s. I have only traveled though SP. SP is so large it is scary.
RE: Latina
Posted by Brazilian
On Thursday, September 19, 2002 at 09:31:11

Message:
NOTE: I think that most liberals and readers of the NY Times lack the ability to think clearly) are yokels and hicks????

Maybe yes and maybe no. If they were born in South or center of the USA. I think that are. Há há há.... (laughing)...

São Paulo, one of the most important and largest cities of the world.
RE: Latina
Posted by Randy
On Friday, September 20, 2002 at 06:54:58

Message:
I am not sure if you are referring to me or not...I have never drank a caipirinha in NY...but in New Orleans.

I also hope that you guys are making joking (bad) generalizations of people from the southern USA. I think you guys know we are not all "yokels and hicks"....especially with all the people from the north that live down here. (but rest assured..there are plenty of "yokels and hicks"!)

Brazilian - I am not sure what you are asking my opinion on...the original post of this thread..whether there are good Portuguese restaurants around Boston....the electoral college..yokels and hicks in the North....Brazilian women...etc...

In the immortal words of "My Cousin Vinny" (a perfect movie to view the generalization of people from the south compared to yankees)..."is there any more shit we can pile on top of this?" (ok ok..I can't remember word for word right now). But really...I with all of the different topics in this thread...I don't know what you are asking my opinion on!!! (unless there is another Randy from NY posting on here!)

RE: Latina
Posted by Brazilian
On Friday, September 20, 2002 at 12:08:29

Message:
Randy,

I think that you are. What do you think about the electoral college? You are in favour or you are against? Observer defends the electoral college and any thing was ok in the last general election to the president of the USA. I would like your opinion about this matter. You know that in Brazil the Brazilians vote directly to the president of Brazil and there is not any type of electoral college. The ellection is completly direct and not indirect. Brazilian people vote directly any kind of politicals in municipals, states and federal government. The votes are eletronic votes in all Brazil and the New York Times has made a big article about the elections in Brazil and doing praises about the modern system where the USA should use at a similar system to avoid problems in elections. I would like to know your opinion about the electoral college. You think that is good example of democracy to be given to the rest of the world or not?
RE: Latina
Posted by Randy
On Friday, September 20, 2002 at 14:38:23

Message:
To tell you the truth, I have never really understood the electoral college and how it works in our voting. I don't think it should be there. However, I have been told by my Brazilian friends that many times in the poorer regions of Brazil, candidates will provide transportation and other things for people to go vote (as it is required of all Brazilian citizens)..thus ensuring that they receive the votes of the people they did "favors" for. As I am not trying to be naive and think this does not happen some in the US....I think it is this type of behavior that is the reason for an electoral college.

With all that being said....I believe in the US form of election. What happened in Florida was an embarrassment and ridiculous. But it is also something that we can learn from.

Do I think the US's form of elections is better than Brazil's?? I don't know. It is not something I have researched before. I will read the NY Times article.

RE: Latina
Posted by gadzooks
On Friday, September 20, 2002 at 14:47:26

Message:
I've always heard that the electoral college exists to balance out the power between heavily populated areas and less populated areas. Not sure why that is such a desirable thing, or if it even works out that way, but that's the explanation I've heard the most.
RE: Latina
Posted by Brazilian
On Friday, September 20, 2002 at 21:19:56

Message:
But, in the case of Florida? The correct would not be fair to do a new general election in that state and having a better supervision either the democrats and republicans? Ok, there had a schedule to be complied in a determined date in accordance the constitution, but when the doubts exist in all the nation? The Supreme Court accepted some recounts of votes in some districts, but when was found more and more faults, then the Supreme Court decided who was the winner of that election and only due a time and one date to be complied and same knowing the doubts and faults of all the process in Florida.
RE: Latina
Posted by Brazilian
On Friday, September 20, 2002 at 21:20:02

Message:
But, in the case of Florida? The correct would not be fair to do a new general election in that state and having a better supervision either the democrats and republicans? Ok, there had a schedule to be complied in a determined date in accordance the constitution, but when the doubts exist in all the nation? The Supreme Court accepted some recounts of votes in some districts, but when was found more and more faults, then the Supreme Court decided who was the winner of that election and only due a time and one date to be complied and same knowing the doubts and faults of all the process in Florida.
RE: Latina
Posted by Patinho
On Saturday, September 21, 2002 at 00:30:52

Message:
It's amusing how such an intelligent and enjoyable conversation has spawned from something completely different from the post. But is is about time a good conversation appeared on the forum.

On the subject, I personally think the electorial college is ridiculous. And the whole "he won the popular vote, but not the electorial vote" and vice versa, stuff is BS.
If someone wins the Popular vote then "HEY!" this is who the people want! The electorial college groups people together by state which is unfair.
For instance:
STATE #1 people vote 40 "A" and 60 "B" It is a "B" State.

STATE #2 people vote 30 "A" and 70 "B" It is a "B" State Also

STATE #3 people vote 90 "A" and 10 "B" It is an "A" State.

So "B" wins 2 out of 3 and is the winner, even though the actual vote of the people was 160 "A" to 140 "B". "A" should have won!!!!

"Making the vote fair for less populated areas" is just an old excuse. Sure there was a time when the Electorial College was needed. But these days, with the availabilty of transportation, the media, etc... no one has an excuse NOT to vote. EVERYONE has a chance to voice thier opinion if they WANT to. Yet, with the EC in place in modern times, I feel that voice is muted somewhat, maybe skewed is a better word. If a person doesn't vote then they don't care or don't want to.... which is something else that makes me sick... all the people that fought for the right to vote and the right to have our own country to vote in... and today... so many people don't give a damn. Anyway... that's a subject for another topic. I am going to shut up now. Of course these are just MY opinions... I could be wrong.

RE: Latina
Posted by Brazilian
On Saturday, September 21, 2002 at 01:15:41

Message:
Finally a good comentary about the Electoral College system used in the USA. What do you think about this Randy? Sorry Observer, but I think that this matter should have had much more importance. Patinho cited the question about geographic populations. Good point Patinho!
RE: Latina
Posted by Brent
On Saturday, September 21, 2002 at 09:39:02

Message:
Hello every one.

The "in this day and age" agrument doesn't work for me. Who cares if we're in "different times" now --- that doesnt mean that the law isn't good.

And why does it make you sick if someone doesn't vote? Why care? I'm glad that morons dont vote, because I dont WANT their vote to count.
RE: Latina
Posted by gadzooks
On Saturday, September 21, 2002 at 17:39:12

Message:
well, plenty of morons voted in florida, or at least they tried to vote... ended up voting for Buchannan of all people...

anyway, that election is a dead horse, left over for historians to pick over. Even Al Gore has gotten over it, so I think we should too.
RE: Latina
Posted by Patinho
On Saturday, September 21, 2002 at 23:51:12

Message:


BRENT,

How can you be so nieve? Of course laws change with time! Did you know that at one time in Philidelphia, it was illegal for a person over 25 to play pinball? And in my city (Memphis)there was such a problem with frog infestation that if a frog was heard croaking on your property after 9pm, then you could be fined. It was to encourage landowners to kill them. In New york City you can bring a dead rat to City Hall and they will pay you 2 cents for it. This was also to encourage the killing of these animals, due to extreme infestation. These are laws that are STILL on the books today... but no one abides by them anymore because there is no longer a use for them. What about the military draft? This law is constantly changing with the times.
Another one is the fact that men were allowed to beat thier wives and children as long as it was with a stick no thinker than your thumb.
I could go on and on... I am a history buff. And I am not making this stuff up, look on the internet for "Blue Laws". So I would have to completely disagree with your first statement. I think there is no room for debate.

The second, however, is only my opinion. I do care if people do not vote. So many people fought and died to give us these rights and this great country. Even more people have died and are dying right now to protect those rights and freedoms.
To me, not voting is just like slapping those brave men in thier faces. Saying "No thank you, everything you did, you did for nothing, you suffered, fought, and died or nothing." I take nothing for granted. Even more so after 9/11... Remember how people panicked and bought guns, were afraid to open their mail, go to sporting events, travel, etc, etc... well... those are rights and freedoms that we all take for granted. Just like the right to vote. For awhile after 9/11, we were on a downward spiral to becoming one of those countries people think to themselves "my God how can they live like that? Under constant threat of war? People dying in the streets? Men and children carrying machine guns? How?"
I love Brazil, but I more so love the country I was born in. I love this country and would willingly lay down my life in the tradition of my ancestors that came before me, to protect her, to protect my family, to protect you, and to protect some stupid moron who is not voting, just so that my countrymen might enjoy these rights and freedoms that I have, for one more day.
Take nothing for granted my freind, it may not be a freedom tomorrow. Anyway... that's just my opinion.. I could be wrong.
RE: Latina
Posted by Brent
On Sunday, September 22, 2002 at 07:36:59

Message:
Patinho said:

"How can you be so nieve? [sic] Of course laws change with time!"

When did I say that laws did not change with the times? Re-read what I posted please. I said: "The "in this day and age" agrument doesn't work for me. Who cares if we're in "different times" now --- that doesnt mean that the law isn't good."

You then go on to cite a plethora of stupid laws about frogs and wifebeating and pinball, laws that have since been overturned. You imply that because these laws were so preposterous, the electoral laws are AS preposterous.

Quite frankly, your analogy is preposterous.

My point was that just because the electoral laws are old, it does NOT mean they are outdated. Please offer a real argument as to why the electoral college is bad for America. "They are old" is not an argument.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion about voting, as I am mine. Your point about brave men fighting for me to have that right is well taken, but I quite like the fact that it is a RIGHT, not an obligation. I don't have to vote if I don't want to -- that's how it should be, and that's how those men who fought intended it to be.

You say "Take nothing for granted my freind [sic], it may not be a freedom toorrow."

You imply way too much. How am I taking anything for granted? I am merely glad that people have the right not to vote, and I will support their right not to vote. Do you want to live in a country that makes voting compulsory? That doesn't sound like freedom, does it? Nope.
RE: Latina
Posted by Brazilian
On Sunday, September 22, 2002 at 17:50:15

Message:
I think that compulsory vote is very good. But, I think that an electoral college is not a good example of democracy to the rest of the world, as well as the protectionism that the Federal Government of US uses to the sugar cane, steel, orange juice and agriculture subsidies (subventions) and prejudicing countries in developing to make a trade with the USA is not good. Mainly when the US Federal Government wants that the ALCA takes effect in all Latin America. They claim for the liberalization of the trade, but at the same time put strong laws of protection in areas not productive in the USA and prejudicing countries in development as Brazil. Brazil is one of most important exporters of soy of the world, as well as of orange juice and today in steel too and it has been very prejudicated due the laws of protection made recently by the federal government of US, which make a protection in some sectors of the US economy of which are not competitive. They claim competition either companies and trade, but when a country get some sectors to be very competitive, then they create protection laws and subventions and prejudicate directly the development countries in only some products. By the way, Brazil always was and continue to be a capitalist country and with a market economy country, while China is a communist country and where exist a slavery work where is produced cheap products and due the cheap work produced for slavers of estatal companies.
RE: Latina
Posted by Patinho
On Sunday, September 22, 2002 at 18:13:25

Message:
BRENT,

If I came across a little harsh, I did not mean to.
And you are absolutely right. Voting is a RIGHT, and it is good to have the freedom of choice. I love the freedom of choice. And it should not be compulsory, you are right. BUT, you asked "And why does it make you sick if someone doesn't vote?" I simply gave you the answer to the question YOU asked about me and my opinions.

Once again.. I made the "preposterous" analagies in order to show how ridiculous the Electorial College is! And I did re-read your post. I was not saying that "old laws" are not good laws. Just that some of them have outlived their use. As with the electorial college. Laws concerning death and theft, etc... may always be important. But pinball, wife beatings, frogs, and the electorial college are all outdated. You cannot tell me that if the country votes 80% for candidate "A" and 20% for candidate "B" and "B" wins... that is not unfair, and some serious changes need to be made in the election process.

I think maybe you missed my point with the analagies. Either way... I am looking forward to your response.

RE: Latina
Posted by Brent
On Sunday, September 22, 2002 at 18:45:30

Message:
Patinho,

I respect your opinions, and I realize that you were merely sharing your opinion, and you are right that I did ask your opinion. Point taken. But when you say, "I think there is no room for debate," you are opening yourself up for attack. This is a debate about the electoral college, so by definition there IS room for debate, and if there weren't, you wouldn't be debating it with me right now.

Your analogies don't prove that the electoral college is preposterous or out of date. Yes, laws become outdated as mores change, and even those "important" laws regarding death and theft change. That's not news.

But how do we decide when a law is outdated? After a certain number of years? When the public decides? When lawmakers decide? Many people say that the second ammendment (regarding gun ownership) is "outdated," and that no one should own guns because we don't "need" to own guns anymore. Says who? This misses the point of the original intent of the ammendment.

I agree that the 80/20 situation you describe is unfair. Can that 80/20 situation happen in the USA? Has it ever happened? Maybe we need to focus on establishing that the electoral college is indeed outdated.

As a side note, this makes me think of the scoring in professional boxing. Let's say Acelino Freitas and Floyd Mayweather are fighting a 3-round fight. In round one, Freitas lands 100 punches and Mayweather lands 10. In round two, Freitas lands 10 and Mayweather lands 40. In round three, Freitas again lands 10 and Mayweather again lands 40. So at the end of the fight, Freitas has landed 120 punches and Mayweather has landed only 90. Even though Freitas outlanded Mayweather by 30 punches, he loses the fight, because he won only round 1. Mayweather won rounds 2 and 3. (Provided there were no knockdowns.) I'm not saying this is anything like the electoral college, it just reminded me how sometimes the numbers don't seem to add up.


RE: Latina
Posted by braslvr
On Sunday, September 22, 2002 at 22:14:12

Message:
Brazilian wrote, among other things....

"as well as the protectionism that the Federal Government of US uses"

Very bad example. The Brazilian govt. is FAR more protective of imports that the US has ever been.

I'll also add that I think that is a positive thing.
RE: Latina
Posted by Brazilian
On Sunday, September 22, 2002 at 23:40:26

Message:
braslvr wrote:

..." Very bad example. The Brazilian govt. is FAR more protective of imports that the US has ever been."...

Brazil is a developing country and with enormous external debt and internal debt. You should do correct comparations either a developed country and one developing country. Brazil export few products and only some products are really competitive and these products are not normally manufactured and are sold as raw material. There are very few aggregated products ready to be consumed or used as product finished.

There are material imported of which don´t have importation fees, since that the products imported are used to build other products to be exported. Depending of the situation, there are protective rules and due the dumping practiced for several multinationals around the world.

The gross orange juice, sugar cane, steel, coffee and soy are some good examples of commodities that the Brazil is competitive in the global market. The producers of these products in the USA don´t have enough production to furnish to all the internal market of the USA and they have received now heavy subsidies (subventions) and of which only increase the cost of these materials imported from the USA. They are making a protection with subsidies for only a minority of companies and many of them already bankrupts. Example: The US steel companies. There are only two companies with a good administration, the others are unproductive companies and bankrupts.

This type of politics don´t help the American market and only make more expenses and the cost of steel imported is much more expensive due the fees and taxes and surtaxes charged for the federal government of the USA in these importation and not solve the problem of the unproductive companies receiving subsidies or subventions from the Federal Government. The same happen in the soy, sugar cane and orange juice.

Thus, countries as example, Brazil can not think that is good the ALCA when the USA doesn´t give a good example with the steel, sugar cane, orange juice and the soy. These are some examples. There are others. The developing countries are developing and have few products really competitive and of which I already cited in this message.

The unique way to reduce the immigration to the USA is bettering the economy of the developing countries and creating more employes, more industries, companies, services, etc... If the few products that a developing country get to be productive and competitive has protective barriers created from the federal government of the USA, then the developing countries will have much more difficult to export their products and the economy already weak and with a enormous external and internal debt only will grow and the unemployment only will increase.

And other thing. Brazil is a capitalist country and with strong internal market. But, what the developing countries see is the trade that the USA makes with the China, of which is a communist country and where the employers there are slaver workers. Where is the democracy in China?
RE: Latina
Posted by Alex
On Monday, September 23, 2002 at 08:37:38

Message:
I've just read this entire thread, and I'm
perplexed: The starting point seemed to be an
ill-conceived article on the supposedly
extrodinary situation of
Latina/Caucasion-male interaction and the
end point is nearer the supposedly justifiable
position of protectionist strategies in
developing economies vs. those in successful
economic systems. I won't try to help. In fact,
I'll add only these two thoughts:

To quote Kegley & Wittkopf: "The developed
nations of today may have at one time been
undeveloped, but they were never
underdeveloped."

And, further, that a successful economic
system's decision to trade with China while
simultaneously doing little to financially assist
peripheral markets could be more evidence of
the reason for that system's success than
evidence of the kind of supposed paradox
Brazilian seemed to find. As for notions of right
and wrong, the business of business has little
to do with emotion.
RE: Latina
Posted by Patinho
On Tuesday, September 24, 2002 at 02:05:45

Message:
Brent,

And you also make a good point. Who decides when a law is no longer of use? I don't know, but I think he's been sleeping or dead for about 70 years.
As far as the 80/20 % example, no, nothing that extreme has happened. BUT! there have been several Presidential Candidates recently that have WON the popular vote and lost the electorial vote, yet were still elected. So it might as well have been an 80/20.
Regarding my analagies.. I think that's exactly what they prove.
Regarding your analagy about boxing. I like it. I get the point. Perhaps this situation need to be addressed also. However, the outcome of a boxing match, no matter who wins, is not going to determine how much in taxes I have to pay, or whether the economy is going to favor a young and struggling person like myself or favor an older richer person to help them get richer. Anyway.. I know what you must me thinking. The candidate I voted for lost. But "no"... that's not it at all.
Either way.. I will reply more intelligently later, it's late and I'm tired... so I don't know if my ramblings made much sense tonight. See ya tomorrow.
RE: Latina
Posted by Brent
On Tuesday, September 24, 2002 at 08:01:22

Message:
I agree with Alex here: The business of
business has little to do with emotion. Follow
the money, and you'll see where the very
notions of Good and Evil originate. For more
on this, please read Fredrich Nietzsche's "On
the Geneology of Morals."

Back Patinho:

Read your history books. There have been two
other cases that you are speaking of. Visit
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/close.ele
ction/popular.vote.html to see them for
yourself. Therefore, your statement "there have
been several Presidential Candidates recently
that have WON the popular vote and lost the
electorial vote..." is doubly wrong. Unless you
consider "two" to be "several." Also, neither of
these cases were "recently."

Of course, if you are talking about countries
other than the U.S., then you may be right. You
didn't specify.

The situation in boxing has been addressed
many times. In fact, amateur boxing is very
different in terms of scoring, and they score by
how many punches one lands. I find this
method of scoring very unsatisfying. You're
right, boxing doesn't affect your taxes. I never
implied that it does. Just like wifebeating and
frogs and pinball don't affect the electoral
college.

I have a question for you, Patinho: Would you
be whining about the electoral college if your
candidate had won in the same manner?
Again, I'm not saying I support the electoral
college, but I'm not willing to embrace the
illogical, kneejerk argument that "it's old,
therefore it's bad."

RE: Latina
Posted by Alex
On Tuesday, September 24, 2002 at 08:18:59

Message:
Brent, you've completely missed the point.
Invoking Nietzsche only underscores your
inability to understand the discussion. Rather,
you should reference Keynes -- not an
obscurist, but rather a scientist of the kind of
economic philosophy that drives the
foundation of all successful foreign trade
policies. By folding a social commentarian
into the argument, you're further addressing,
and thus lending credence to, the dissatisfied
human capital elements mired in unsuccesful
economies (like our friend Brazilian) who
seem to believe that spending time reacting to
results -- emotionally or philosophically
reacting -- is more worthwhile than spending
time achieving results. Those parties who
spend what little resources they have
complaining to UN committees and
international forums about the injustice of the
U.S. economic model would be better served
emulating that model -- "If you can't beat 'em,
join 'em." Pathetically, these parties seem to
have introduced a third paradigm: "If you can't
beat 'em, join 'em -- or rest in their shadow
and complain about the lack of light."
Try again Brent.
RE: Latina
Posted by Brent
On Wednesday, September 25, 2002 at 08:19:04

Message:
You are right Alex. Nietzsche is an obscurist,
but he doesn't even speak on economic
policy. Sorry for that.

Back to Patino though:

Can you show any evidence that a candidate
could possibly win with only 20% of the
popular vote? I don't think you can. Your
statement, "whether the economy is going to
favor a young and struggling person like
myself or favor an older richer person to help
them get richer." Who cares if you are young
and struggling? Do something to become that
rich person. Yes, it's a fact that the rich usually
get richer, probably because they know how to
use money. Most millionaires in the US are
self-made, meaning, they did NOT inherit the
money. Professional athletes, etc., are not
good examples, because they don't know how
to invest.
RE: Latina
Posted by Patinho
On Wednesday, September 25, 2002 at 21:07:52

Message:
ok Brent,a few points.
1) I prefer to think that we are discussing an intreresting topic, as opposed to refering to me as "whining" about the electorial college.
2) I have tried to communicate to you through 3 posts that my original post did not say "it's old,therefore it's bad." And if somehow you came to this conclusion,that is was not my intent.
3) You said "Would you be whining about the electoral college if your candidate had won in the same manner?" I said in plain english in my LAST post "Anyway.. I know what you must be thinking. The candidate I voted for lost. But "no"... that's not it at all." Please READ my posts before responding to them.
4) Who said I wanted to be rich? And who cares if I am young and struggling? Well...I do. And as far as I am concerned, my opinions do not have to mean much to other people, but it means a helluva lot to me.
5) And no I can't give a good example of a "20%" vote. I admit that maybe I was over zealous in that analagy. However, with the way you respond to my posts, often argueing points that I did not make in the first place,it appears that the extreme analagies are needed.
I simply come here to read and share ideas with other people. Not to force my opinions upon them. I ask the same from you. I am still young and I am still shaping my view of the world. SO I give everyone's opinion it's due consideration, and with this, most of my opinions are open to debate within myself. So I do ask that you stop attacking every little statement that I make. This attitude that you take makes this turn from a discussion to a debate, which is quickly becoming annoying to me. I would enjoy to continue this conversation, but only if you intend to reply with a less demeaning tone, and perhaps open yourself up to someone else's opinion. Right or wrong, everyone's opinion should at least be given the respect of not being shot down like a dying animal.

RE: Latina
Posted by Patinho
On Wednesday, September 25, 2002 at 21:08:37

Message:
ok Brent,a few points.
1) I prefer to think that we are discussing an intreresting topic, as opposed to refering to me as "whining" about the electorial college.
2) I have tried to communicate to you through 3 posts that my original post did not say "it's old,therefore it's bad." And if somehow you came to this conclusion,that is was not my intent.
3) You said "Would you be whining about the electoral college if your candidate had won in the same manner?" I said in plain english in my LAST post "Anyway.. I know what you must be thinking. The candidate I voted for lost. But "no"... that's not it at all." Please READ my posts before responding to them.
4) Who said I wanted to be rich? And who cares if I am young and struggling? Well...I do. And as far as I am concerned, my opinions do not have to mean much to other people, but it means a helluva lot to me.
5) And no I can't give a good example of a "20%" vote. I admit that maybe I was over zealous in that analagy. However, with the way you respond to my posts, often argueing points that I did not make in the first place,it appears that the extreme analagies are needed.
I simply come here to read and share ideas with other people. Not to force my opinions upon them. I ask the same from you. I am still young and I am still shaping my view of the world. SO I give everyone's opinion it's due consideration, and with this, most of my opinions are open to debate within myself. So I do ask that you stop attacking every little statement that I make. This attitude that you take makes this turn from a discussion to a debate, which is quickly becoming annoying to me. I would enjoy to continue this conversation, but only if you intend to reply with a less demeaning tone, and perhaps open yourself up to someone else's opinion. Right or wrong, everyone's opinion should at least be given the respect of not being shot down like a dying animal.

RE: Latina
Posted by BRENT
On Thursday, September 26, 2002 at 10:47:36

Message:
Pathino:

As I see it, I have, to some, "whined" about
certain points of my own. That this is a
discussion is obvious, and doesn't need
elucidation.

Yes, you implied that you wouldn't be criticizing
(not "whining about") the electoral system if
Gore had won, but you never state this directly.
Therefore, I was looking for you to admit this.

I do not argue points you do not make, and I
am not asking others to subscribe to my views
by force. Speaking of "attitude," YOU were the
one who started with the smarmy attitude by
saying, "This is not even open for debate," and
by calling me "naive." I am open to your
opinion, and I have constantly been trying to
steer the discussion toward ways to illuminate
your opinion -- for instance, by asking if an
80/20 vote ever happened, and so on.

I'm sorry that you feel like a dying animal. I will
try to be more articulate. As for now, I am
going to investigate why we use the electoral
system, and what people's views are on it.

RE: Latina
Posted by Medicine Man
On Thursday, September 26, 2002 at 11:04:10

Message:
So, what is this string about? Ah, yes Latin women. Get out of that cybercafe/coffe house, office cube,etc, and meet some women. They can be Latin or not, but just talk to some, instead of talking about them. If you can't then get some help. Bom Dia!

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