Brazzil

At first, I thought the ranting of this article was the beginning of a sort of joke within a more serious or objective commentary. However, the ranting and conspiracy-like dialogue continues until the very end. Could this really have been written by an educated philospher? If so, I truly believe the author has personal issue with Obama that he is apparently hiding under the cloak of a form of pseudo-intellectualism.

The original document, which is still missing, is necessary to clear up an essential question: Is Obama an American citizen, or is he an alien and therefore ineligible?

And you are Sherlock Holmes? Go and find something better to write Olavo!

Finally a Brazilian writer who understands American politics.

Simply producing the original birth certificate would resolve at least that issue. So why has it not been trotted out? Hmmm?

Olavo Sherlock Holmes,

Here, from Article 2 of the United States Constitution: http://www.2008electionprocon....sident.htm

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."

If you put a blonde-wig on that picture of Obama, it looks just like Shelly!

Is this the sign of a 'great' philospher? It looks like a list of Republican counterpoints given to a teenage Republican volunteer and told to write an anti-Obama article for his school newspaper.

What a waste.

I just read it again. It's really a silly article. Even if this same level of article was written by the Democrats against McCain it would still be silly. It insults the intelligence of the reader, pro-Obama or pro-McCain.

Maybe that's why he's whining and begging for money on his site. But to get support, he's going to have to do much better than this.

From experience, my kids were born here, so I know what I am talking about, to get a US Passport, you MUST present a birth certificate.

How do you think he travelled to Europe?

His passport will contain STATE BORN, however the parent's name aren't included. In Brazil we have mother and father's name.

There are all kinds of people who are USA citizens by virtue of two American parents who were not born in the USA or one of its territories. They have virtually all the rights and privileges of someone born in one of the fifty states, except for running for president.

Better find out now than later. Imagine the bagunça.

There are all kinds of people who are USA citizens by virtue of two American parents who were not born in the USA or one of its territories.

Like McBUSH who was born in PANAMA. CONFIRMED! Why isn't anyone whining about that?

Better find out now than later. Imagine the bagunça.

Essa foi boa!

I think he meets the requirement being a natural born, older than 35, and has lived here 14 years prior to his candidacy.

Natural born means jus sanguis or jus solis, not naturalized (like what I am trying to do).

what a peice of f**king crap

this administration has tanked the united states more than any in history...get them the f**k out of there and get obama in fast

In the case of president what is meant by natural born is born in a US state or territory. Panama was a territory when McCain was born there. This interpretation is well known and generally accepted. Regardless of who one votes for, surely it beomes apparent that a person could be nominated, elected, and yet not be confirmed. This would throw the system into a constitutional crisis.

www.fightthesmears.com

I support John McCain, but this is all to silly. Copy of birth certificate can be found here (and yes, Hawaii is a state). http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/birthcert

Have you been paid by the right-wing? Or the s**t you smoked in the 60's still lingering in your system?

Thanks for Smear Fighter and MacCain Support. There is not need to smear the guy, but his website is full of lies told about him. Surely someone is responsible for it, my bet is:... the McCain's squad!

Maybe that's why he's whining and begging for money on his site. But to get support, he's going to have to do much better than this.

Well, he is not financed by billionaires to sell out his own country, that must be why is "begging". He would be far better in life if he played along with the socialist plans for Brazil. But he has this habit, of talking about what people wouldn't like to hear.

The guy is the best Brazilian philosopher alive, and all the schemes he investigates in Latin America were PROVEN to be right (about the Lula-Castro-Chavez axis, socialist indoctrination and a major socialist organization taking over many Latin American countries, among other things).

Recently the Colombian government accused the Brazilian government of supporting the FARC. Guess what!? He has been telling everybody about that for more than decade! Only now, before undeniable evidence, people are aware of it.

He knows what he is talking about.

I support John McCain, but this is all to silly. Copy of birth certificate can be found here (and yes, Hawaii is a state). http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/birthcert

... you would see that it never says that the certificate wasn't presented or that Hawaii is not an American state. It says that it is a forgery. Got it?

It's not plausible that a McCain supporter would jump to defend Obama without even reading the text before making stupid remarks. Unless, of course, you have been brainwashed in the psychological blackmail the author refers to, making Obama virtually uncriticizable.

This Obama BS is everywhere. They can't refute a single criticism straight. They need to misrepresent and distort what people says to make it look false.

Obama's mother's original Social Security Number Application

webofdeception.com/obamamother'sssapplication.html

its just plain bulls**t

Conspiracy theorist, I´m not. An undergrad course in logic, I took.

Since the Obama camp is so lightening quick to respond to anything negative, so ready to come up with evidence that refutes anything the DNC can throw at them, I conclude that their coyness on this birth certificate issue is out of character. It doesn´t fit with the rest of their demeanor.

Which leads to the obvious question, why are they reticent one this one point? If they have proof that Obama was born in the USA, it would be normal procedure for them to have submitted it immediately, a hard copy, to someone with forensic credentials. But such is not the case.

Under present law, as most are aware, a child born in the USA including its possessions is a citizen of the USA even if both the parents are foreign nationals. A child born abroad of two USA passport holders is also a US citizen. But a child born abroad to an American married to an alien does not pass the constitutional test for eligibility for being sworn is as US president.

It seems to me that of all issues this is the worst type to play dumb on. One can explain the Keating five, one can waffle on whether one´s pastors views were known, hedge on this or that, but at some point someone is going to get to the bottom of this.

Is Obama Vaporware?

Did Che Guevara burn down the cartorio in Tracateua to hide the fact that Fidel Castro was born there, therefore Brazlian and not Cuban?

So many Q.

DNC should read RNC.

There seems to be some doubt as to whether Obama´s parents were in fact legally married. If they in fact were not, this point might help him in the eligibility question.

The writing is on the wall

Yes, its says that you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting.

I always wondered why so many "educated" Brazilians
were so illogical and insufferably arrogant at the
same time.
This is from a "philosopher"?
I took a couple of biology courses in college --
maybe I can market myself as a "doctor".
What a joke

I always wondered why so many "educated" Brazilians were so illogical and insufferably arrogant at the same time.

Perhaps you could point out the logic flaws, or can't you? Or even better, send the author an e-mail pointing out his "flaws" and putting him in his "place". What about that? You could even dare him to publish your e-mail humiliating him on his website if he is a man of honor and honesty. What about that?

Here it is: http://www.olavodecarvalho.org/ . Go tiger! Show us your intellectual prowess. We are all waiting to see the outcome of such "debate".

Of Leftist idiots such as yourself Brazil is full. You are not the first, and not the hundredth to say the same thing. But the thing that even the self-acclaimed "top" academics (it is calculated by "how many friends you have" and how many dollars of bribes you receive by the leftist Weltanschauung) can't face him in a debate. Some tried, and were badly humiliated.

But go ahead, he should be no problem for you.

Conspiracy theorist, I´m not. An undergrad course in logic, I took.

Yoda you are.

TB, that was very good but to be proper you should have said "Yoda are you". Always imply a question when stating a questionable fact or position. Que Brasileiro ne'?

The world is going Left...

The writing is on the wall

Quite prophetic as usual. We have discussed this issue before and none of us including the writer of this article (nor the commentators) can prevent it from happening. Now that the Olympic games are coming to an end, it is time to start concentrating on two important forthcoming events. The Presidential elections in U.S. and our municipal elections here. I am taking your advice and ready to watch the show with plenty of pop corn!

The popcorn, he is ready to eat.

There is no question that Mr. Olavo de Carvalho is extremely eloquent, well read, and with significant insight into the American socio-political system.

Although I intend to revisit this article again later, my first impression is that Mr. de Carvalho is either an innocent victim or a deliberate spokesman of the American Far Right.

Indeed, he appears to have been either deeply influenced by concerted efforts of elements within the extreme right of the political spectrum, thus becoming an intellectual captive to a cunning political abilities for persuading innocent victims; or he may actually represent one of their willing, concealed agents…

His brilliantly well written, nearly convincing arguments being just one of their many voices, cleverly scattered throughout the American media (and internet), with the sole intent to influence views and opinions which have not been entirely shaped.

So Augustus, do you figure Olavo gets cash from the CIA to act as the American far right's buttboy or do you figure it's more likely that he's hired by "private concerns"... Y'know, the same Yanks who are currently trying to convince the poor Brazilian masses that evolution is a devil-worshipping plot to drive their children away from Christianity?

As a RADICAL atheist, I'm probably the least likely supporter on any views you may have about "driving children away from Christianity", for I shall always equate ANY religion with hatred /discrimination /restriction / hypocrisy and UTTER primitive behavior, out of which mankind has been gradually emerging thanks to the wisdom of 18th & 19th century thinkers, writers, philosophers and scientists...

The only reason I find for the personal tolerance of religion, which I must endure, is the infinitely greater conviction in the freedom of choice, whereby people should be free to advocate to deplorable, primitive and utterly ridiculous worship of alleged divinities...

IF the Republican Party were to have no religious majority behind them, and did not demonstrate unacceptable intents on imposing their restricted views on others; if only they could be similar to civilized European conservatives, among whom, religion is personal choice is not an issue, they would have counted me as one of the greatest supporters... BUT this is unfortunately the case!

I have e-mailed Olavo, funny enough no message from him. I went straight to the point with him. He might be a "good" philosopher, but he is better at conspiracy theory. His article is full-in my opinion, of unconvincing "evidence" or whatever you want to call.

Some here are asking to see if Obama's birth certificate is legitimate. Do you really think that he will waste his time with this nonsense? When I got the kids US passport I had to send their birth certificate with the application. Do you think if it was false, the US government would allow Obama to have an American passport?

Whoever thinks that he has fake papers is going insane-or maybe, just maybe there is a conspiracy out there to put foreigners as President of the US?

If MCain wins, get ready for conscription (he said he agreed with everything the reporter asked him-did you see the interview?), Roe vs. Wade to be thrown out in the trash, ESA to be rejected and environmental consequences will be disastrous, and more warmongers in Washington. Religion should stay out of politics, but the Republicans are married with the religious right, in my opinion, the religious right have done much damage to this country. Bush got elected twice because of them!

Roe vs. Wade to be thrown out in the trash

Amen.

I have e-mailed Olavo, funny enough no message from him.

Let us know if you get a response. I think he receives lots of e-mails.

Indeed, he appears to have been either deeply influenced by concerted efforts of elements within the extreme right of the political spectrum, thus becoming an intellectual captive to a cunning political abilities for persuading innocent victims; or he may actually represent one of their willing, concealed agents…

I know that he was a communist decades ago, and slowly started understanding what communism and the left were about. Then he changed his mind. I think there are intellectual captives, but they are mostly in the left. Many people from the right were leftists when they were young.

Many people from the right were leftists when they were young.

Our current (and likely to be eternal) "headman" is one of them. They were quicker than Olavo to see which side of the bread has butter. The so called "intellectual captives" also became quite flexible in their thoughts and actions, once they freed themselves from their "captivity".

What the hell is this article doing here in Brazzil?

The article only mentions Brazil, briefly, in the last paragraph, and superficially.

Its an anti-Obama rant disguised as an article about Brazil.

Why is thinly disguised partisan political propaganda on a site whose goal is to propagate information about Brazil?

http://www.factcheck.org/elect...e_usa.html

They saw the original birth certificate.

Look...these web sites need traffic and maybe that's why the article was accepted. However, the motives that created the article is suspect. It's more than suspect...it's bull-doo-doo. (Coco de toro). I believe that this idiot wants to show the American right wing that he's a good boy and will follow their agenda. That's fine! We all have our political leanings. But it has to be done with integrity. Obama "covers his genitals." CHILDISH! Obama wants to "destroy American symbols." EE-DEE-OT! "Attack upon American values...since the 60s". That has been the whine of the American racists when racist state-controlled strategies to deny blacks the right to vote were dismantled. What great "American culture" existed in an environment where more than 2/3 of the American population was not included in decision making. This writer has lived in America for 5 years, yet he is now an expert on pre 1960 American culture. Obama "wants to raise the gas prices". Even the right wing pulled that ridiculous claim. When economists explained to McCain how gas prices work, he went through hoops to disassociate himself from the claim, yet A BRAZILIAN'S 'great philosopher' repeats bulls**t that even his handlers run away from. PATHETIC! Maybe the 'great philsohpers' handlers hadn't yet told him what the new party line was.

To see who are the people who make these claims, do a search on OBAMA DESTROYS NATIONAL SYMBOLS on google.

You will find the utter slime of American politics. The group who still imply that he is muslim, etc. (why didn't this great philosopher mention that, from a given angle, Obama's "O" looks a star and crescent?) Why not? He's already made half an ass out of himself. Might as well go all the way. The problem is that this philosopher is just like any other scheming, conniving, deceiving operative. His writings are written in Portuguese for a Brazilian audience who do not have the information context that exists in the States. He plays to the ignorance of his own people. During the fingerprinting and visa controversy, I've seen how SOME Brazilian reporters played to emotion rather than reasoning. Even though they were in a position to INFORM their people, they manipulated their own people. I've read two of his articles on this site and they both are juvenile. And once again, Senhor A BRAZILIAN shows his ignorance. On one thread, his little anti-American itself criticizes American interference in other countries while this very "attack upon American culture" that he nows champions in the this 'great philosopher' was the basis for McCarthyism, the circumvention of the Constitution and the rationale (among others) for America's involvement in the affairs of other countries. This same intervention that the philosopher calls for (thinly veiled) when he says that America needs to counter the "anti-American propaganda" in Brazil.

Be careful what you wish for.

Ain't yuh reading this stuff?

That photo of Obama, just place a blonde wig on it and what do you get?

Shelly!

Costinha

And once again, Senhor A BRAZILIAN shows his ignorance.

How exactly the ignorance is mine if I am not the one accusing the author of lack of logic without saying what is illogical or what is wrong?

He is a person of excellent knowledge. He knows not only about the American history, but about the western civilization in general more than any other Brazilian scholar. He knows communism inside out, after all he was a communist for some time and studied it throughly. If you have something against it, then, please, let him know of it and tell us what happened. Write him an e-mail pointing and proving the errors!

I didn't know Americans were so thin-skinned. This must a common trait of all leftists of the world. His writing style is fun, because he doesn't bother to use politeness to criticize what is wrong, meanwhile in the leftist-land appearances and smiles are all that is needed to be a "great" anything.

What is waged against the US, and all non-leftist groups as well, is a cultural war. He is just pointing out the obvious with Obama.

They saw the original birth certificate.

Yes, and nobody said it didn't exist. Some people say it is a forgery. Why can't experts analyze it?

On one thread, his little anti-American itself criticizes American interference in other countries while this very "attack upon American culture" that he nows champions in the this 'great philosopher' was the basis for McCarthyism

I was never anti-American, and being from the right doesn't mean that I approve anything republicans do. I just recognize the truth, that the left and communism are currently the worst evils in the world.

The intellectual's of the type of Mr. DeCarvalho have the general proclivity to switch from one extreme to another, according to circumstances, which support an interesting comment (noted somewhere above) suggesting that many extreme left wing individuals from the 1960's are nowadays closer to the opposite end of the political spectrum... As Joao cunningly puts it, they are "flexible" in the extremism, depending upon the current conditions.

Because some of my positions are extreme themselves, I am in a position to understand the compelling drive such proclivities may exert on the human mind. I suspect the only reason I’m spared being “swayed” across the spectrum is solely due to two factors, generally absent in most others: the strong, overriding respect for human individualism including the sacrosanct right of personal choice; as well as the unusual aspect of my radical views: left in social / center in economics / right in international affairs. As such, there is a balance in my extremes which precludes my views from swinging, but the ability of recognizing its presence within almost anyone is indisp**able (for me).

Shelly, as mentioned above, I could not object to any of your statements and find myself in line with someone I previously considered “leftist” (LOL) – Yet, I suspect if we were ever to discuss international issues, including the use of military force for legitimate, significant national interests and security, we are probably bound to disagree…

The intellectual's of the type of Mr. DeCarvalho have the general proclivity to switch from one extreme to another, according to circumstances, which support an interesting comment (noted somewhere above) suggesting that many extreme left wing individuals from the 1960's are nowadays closer to the opposite end of the political spectrum... As Joao cunningly puts it, they are "flexible" in the extremism, depending upon the current conditions.

Did you conclude all of that from my last comment? In one minute you conclude he is some sort of captive, and later recognizes his ability to switch? Would you care to elaborate, because I don't see how. It is no secret he was a communist, he openly explains why he changed his mind (because of the lies and criminal mentality of the left).

I am not what João meant, Lula was and is a leftist. He was the president of Foro de São Paulo, a leftist organization that does "strategic coordination" of all left parties of the region, and of which Chavez, Castro, the FARC, and other terrorist organizations are part of. His party is involved with the narcoguerrillas in Colombia, just like recent evidence has shown. Lula's actions are leftist to the core. He only doesn't hesitate to betray anyone for achieving the ultimate goal of the left, power.

Many youngsters are fooled into believing in leftists ideals without understanding what they are supporting. If they learn about it and consciously choose to change, is it a bad thing? Olavo writes substance, factual things you can research yourself, his enemies of the left can't do anything besides stupid comments such as yours. It's substance against illusion.

Come on, can you do better? Then do it and show us.

This guy is the biggest loser to ever leave Brazil. I can clearly see that he is right wing Brazilian; probably of a wealthy family that supported the Geisel regime and the various interest groups that dealt in censorship/oppression/brain washing/torture. And how does he know what the "will of the majority" is? He sounds just like McCain who said the same type of BS that "all Americans stand behind Georgia". How do these right wings get off on these assumptions?

Also to point out that discussing Obama's birth certificate is a big waste of time given that the current president cant even speak English properly. Who the hell cares?

Brazil is the country of the future ---
"and always will be" (De Gaulle).

vive la france
and to hell with brazilian "philosopers"

they are much like jamaican bobsleders --)

the author is well written !!.. that said ,,,the lefts last desperate gasp will soon be over with baracks inevitable defeat ...the u.s huge middle class will insure this ...the lefts fatal flaw is their assumption that people are naive,stupid,and can be swayed by their propaganda ....this of course is why they fail miserably...the u.s. is poised "right ", and the majority of americans will prevail...

the lefts anti-american blowhards in south america are really not taken seriously by most americans ,,, its thought of similarily like the comical rants of a goofy looking little impotent coward like chavez,castro,or some other little insignificant...quite frankly ,,no one cares ...

americans are being extremly naive and provincial to not pay attention to how much they are despised and hated by the average person in south america.they need to wake up and find out how to reach the people in south america. south america has many solutions to their problems

like oil and ethanol. instead of dealing with chavez and saudi arabia, they could be trying to , hat in hand, make extremly good relations with brazil to get in on the huge deep water oil deposits that were recently discovered

they need to weed themselves off oil anyway and drop the subsidies on brazilian ethanol, because corn ethanol is bad. if they really wanted to they could make a major adjustment to it rapidly, and, at least funtion like brazil....ah , but no, for sure oil lobbies will prevent that...just more years of sucking off the tits of people who really despise and hate america

america "poised right"? how about america has been f**ked in the ass by the right. america is one sick puppy now, or didnt you know that? for sure, people dont even realise how the low dollar is just kicking them in the ass, the administration economists always saying low dollar is ok for exports when any body who has seen declining monies in south america or lived through it knows what a hell it is.no south american country pulled themselves together in the last 10 years without firming up their currancies first....ah , but, americans dont care...nothing good will happen for america until it firm up its money again

and, "poised right" has gotten america into a trillion dollar war that is just raking it to the coals.

you really have to be joking. any american poised right is taking it up the rear end hard...get those sob's the hell out of office

The only upside of your pathetic article is its reflection of his
ill-informed and less than intelligent opposition. Write more, you are will be contributing to his election. You are a writer?

William Mayo

brazil,, stop, dismantle,arrest,end,,,the criminal enterprise of trafficking your nationals and others to the u.s.a.via mexico,canada,and the issuing of tourist visas to people who intend to go underground in the u.s. ..your illegals bring crime,fraud,a lack of respect for americans,and a inate hatred of the u.s... these leftist mutts are facing deportation in the u.s.,,and no obama or any one else wants them here....

I am not what João meant,

I confirm that I did not mean you! As for your comments in the rest of the paragraph, I wholeheartedly agree with you. So far as I can remember, you were (and still are) the only blogger that has ever mentioned about SP forum in this site.

I am sure that Augustus will have more to say about this issue.

You gotta love it. A return to those good old pre-1960 "American cultural values". Hey Goober...I mean U.S. Observer...let's get some rope and lynch some of those 'mutts'. You know...like in the 'good old days'...when them nigras got too uppity. Dog-gone-it! Let's give this country back to the 'real Americans'.

And those lefty countries that keep kicking out our dictators...let's nuke them sons-of-bitches. I mean, can't a real American enjoy some nice juicy latina women and a few Cuba libres on the beach without some lefty talking about it's his country.

Humph! We'll see about that. Maybe we need to send some more Rough Riders into these 'banana republics' and restore some order.

Ahh...the good old days.

I know that Olavo welcomes your support. You too deserve each other.

You TWO deserve each other.

Shelly, as mentioned above, I could not object to any of your statements and find myself in line with someone I previously considered “leftist” (LOL) – Yet, I suspect if we were ever to discuss international issues, including the use of military force for legitimate, significant national interests and security, we are probably bound to disagree… smilies/cheesy.gif

Why do you think I am a leftist? Just curiosity, because I am more for a centered view on politics. Certainly, if I had to swing either right or left, you know where I stand. However, I have to agree that politics fascinates me, and I don't claim to understand all. There are forces much stronger than we can gather behind it.

I am against the government telling me what I should do with my own mind and body. Both in Brazil and America, we seem to have a party trying to dictate what we see, read, hear, what we can or cannot do. Freedom is relative if you apply it to certain issues.

However, I don't mind you disagreeing with me, we should all have an opportunity to express our views. Try to do that in China!

His writings are written in Portuguese for a Brazilian audience who do not have the information context that exists in the States. He plays to the ignorance of his own people.

Adrian, I will agree in part and disagree as well. Let's take a look at the former first.

You pinpointed some truth here. He writes for Brazilians, mainly middle and upper classes. He is fueling the nationalistic agenda which has been going on for the past decade in South America. However, SA is more of a "dictator" run state than ever before. Just look at the likes of Chaves, Lula, etc. (getting out of line here, Sarkozy has become a dictopresident in France). There is a new wave of nationalism and pride going on in Brazil, but funny as it seems, nobody goes on to protest the real issues that plague my country. Instead, when President Bush visited Brazil, they cared more for that then for the corruption, uneducation, violence, inequality, and the list goes on.

The Brazilian media is also married with the government. They should inform, use the space they have to bring the issues that matter to the front pages, and ask for accountability of both the State and the population.

What I disagree with you is that Brazilians do not have the information context that people in America have. I will disagree with you, I live here and have seen how ignorant Americans are about worldly matters. I have few American friends that don't fit the profile, but they are few. Also, you don't get real news here. I have to rely on European newspapers to get a true account of what goes on here. Your news is also catered to a local news. I laughable that CNN is considered international news. BBC is the best source of international news.

You can say that the American media has done a poor job at informing Americans on national and international news. Fox News is as right as you can have, they missinform the audience on a constant basis. Americans are more worried about whether or not Britney Spears is getting committed to a mental hospital.

I don't know if you have been to Brazil or are in Brazil, if you ever go, try to talk to some people, in terms of what goes on in the world, I bet they give you a better information than most Americans. Even the poor listens to news on the radio!

for accountability of both the State and the population.

from

August, you have another 8 days to blog under this name. Starting Mid Night of 31st of August, thou shall be known as September.

Shelly, I wasn't comparing the world knowledge of Brazilians to the world knowledge of Americans. I was saying that when you SUPERFICIALLY talk of the affairs of one people or culture to another group or culture, then that other group does not have the context to "fill in between the lines", or understand the history of that OTHER people's culture or the historical friction between political parties or with races or ethnicities within that other culture.

Olavo makes a list of the standard Republican rants against Obama, some of which they have backed off, such as the "Obama makes the price of gas rise."

Americans know that the right-wing have backed off on this nonsense. But, do Brazilians? That type of deconstruction of a political and economic lie does not make headline news in other countries. Anybody who perpetuates the lie, knowing that their people don't have the 'context' of American challenges to the lie is either confused or deliberately taking advantage of their audience's ignorance.

If I wrote an article to an African American newspaper saying that there are many whites in Bahia who call grown black men "Neguinho" (little black boy)they would raise hell. They don't know the cultural context of Bahia and would make an error judging that society and I would be in error for not placing the phrase into some type of cultural context.

I live in Salvador. In Boca do Rio. I'm not impressed with Brazilians nor Americans understanding of the forces that control the world or control their lives. I've never done a study, or read a study on who is the best or worst.

when they hang the last marxist,,,,you can be sure ,,a marxist will sell you the rope.....the worlds number one ultra super power the u.s.a., is the envy of the world.......first in wealth !!,first in military superioty,first in technology,first in education...there is no country in the world who can defeat the u.s.a.

first in military superioty,first in technology,first in education...there is no country in the world who can defeat the u.s.a.

You must be having some cold ones and enjoying your Saturday evening.
Have a great week end.

“Also to point out that discussing Obama's birth certificate is a big waste of time given that the current president cant even speak English properly. Who the hell cares?”

My reaction: Standing Ovation!

Costinha

PS: Shelly, back to the kitchen and fix me something to eat!

I live in Salvador. In Boca do Rio. I'm not impressed with Brazilians nor Americans understanding of the forces that control the world or control their lives. I've never done a study, or read a study on who is the best or worst.

You are the greatest philosopher, I have come across in recent times. The last one was Socrates.

“the worlds number one ultra super power the u.s.a., is the envy of the world.......first in wealth !!,first in military superioty, first in technology, first in education...there is no country in the world who can defeat the u.s.a.” … Bla Bla Bla…

You know what, Treaky Tongue? Talk to someone who cares!

The “envy of the world” piece has been overused and stretched to the limit. It no longer has the effect intended.

First in “wealth,” keep dreaming son! In terms of GNP perhaps for awhile longer, but don’t forget that the Arabs and Chinese owns most of that american money. Besides, the economies of say China among others, are quickly catching up.

First in “health,” not so. Many countries now surpass the United States in life expectancy.

First in “military superiority” you may be slightly right yet, but history shows that you still don’t get it your way (i.e. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, among many others). For example, you no longer have a monopoly on nuclear weapons; also, regional nations are joining forces commercially and militarily to counter act the US foreign policies. This will be a major headache for the Washingtonian thugs in the foreseeable future.

First in “technology,” not true. The US no longer leads in technology innovation, scientific expertise, or even space exploration. Much of today’s advancement comes from all over the world including Europe, Asia, Latin America, and Africa (South Africa). American competitiveness in the global marketplace is a thing of the past, slipping further and further behind.

First in “education,” now that’s pushing the envelope. I assume you meant this as some form of a joke!

In closing, Brasil like most of rest of the world, we don’t care about the USA or its people. American credibility is lower then sewer scum, we don’t believe you, we don’t appreciate you, and we certainly don’t like you.

My advice to you sonny boy… Please don’t order your Sushi well done!

Costinha

All fiction writers use symbols in their writing.
Carvalho's comparison of Obama and Lula is a piece of bad fiction. What distinguishes a good non-fiction writer from any bad writer is objectivity. Somewhere along the history of Carvalho's philosophical training, Carvalho lost his objectivity! To paraphrase Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., a famous American whose life might mean nothing to Carvalho and who was similarly vilified by the extremist right-wingers of the time, Carvalho should judge a man by the content of his character and not by false allegations of lack of patriotism.

As far as we know, the oldest nations to assume hegemonic position on Earth were Sumer, followed by Babylon and Egypt; then Persia became the dominant power, followed by the Roman Empire which, after defeating Carthage, manage to hold sway of the known world for well over six centuries.

With the fall of the Roman Empire, the (Christian) Byzantine and then (Islamic) Ottoman Empires were ruled most of the world out of the city of Constantinople, now Istanbul.
Naturally we also had Portugal as a Maritime Power in a re-emerging Europe in the closing centuries of “darkness” of the Middle Ages

With the Renaissance and Neo-Classical periods, the world witnessed the rise of Spain and France as the main powers, which were more recently replaced by the British Empire. The United Kingdom, the previous World Super Power, which ruled the planet from the 1690’s until 1914 eventually was also replaced…

Exactly one hundred years ago – 1908 - although Great Britain remained the richest and most powerful nation on Earth, the seeds of its pending decline had already been planted. Conflicts throughout its vast possessions, most notably, India, South Africa and the Sudan, along with the rise of American and Prussian military-industrial Might, were gradually but increasingly challenging their predominance… Yet, for the “powers of be” discussing world issues in London, either meeting at Whitehall or during Garden tea-parties, they would never concede the remote possibility that their superior powerful country was already in decline…

Despite their refusal to acknowledge or recognize London’s decline by its government, aristocracy, and industrialists, the inevitable downfall of their Empire became irrefutable as soon as the deadly guns of the Great War made the announcement “loud & clear”, thereby triggering countless strikes and the eventually loss of their colonies, which concluded with a drastic economic decline.

Thanks to the interference of the United States, which had been gradually growing & flexing muscle in the background since the 1870’s, the Great Britain actually avoided complete financial melt-down, by which time anyone in London would no longer question their lost of status, influence, and power….

The USA, as you know became the clear World Leader in 1918, even as it refused to be a signatory of the Peace Treaty of 1919 in Versailles. It bankrolled England, France and the (German) Weimar Republic out of total collapse and war related debts, and, later, after the great victory of the Second World War its Super Power status became indisp**able; by then only the Soviet Union could match its power and influence.

Although the Soviet Union and the United States ruled Supreme, just as their historical predecessors once have, during the 20th Century, both powers have gradually lost influence in the closing years of the same century. In the case of the Soviet Union, the decline became official in 1991, when their “union” disintegrated and their “colonies” were lost. As for the United States, despite a certain revival during the Reagan & Clinton years, I dare say that the events of September 11, 2001 will one day be selected by future historians as the official “beginning of the end” of period the American Predominance.

In the same way that Washington flexed started flexing economical muscles, discretely from 1870-1914, during the declining British period, now we are witnessing Beijing doing the same thing, since the 1990’s – just not quite as discretely…

Thanks for the brief history refresher. Well Done!

Costinha

You are the greatest philosopher, I have come across in recent times. The last one was Socrates.

If you knew the least thing about Socrates, you would never use words like 'greatest'. That's what he was called by the Oracles and, knowing his own ordinariness, he challenged the veracity of the oracles, which eventually led to his death.

It seems that you guys need to find some 'greatest' to lead you.

Grow up, Costinha. Be your own person. "An unexamined life is not worth living" (Socrates).

Here's a line from another well-known philsopher "I'M TALKING ABOUT THE MAN IN THE MIRROR. I'M ASKING HIM TO CHANGE HIS WAYS." (Michael Jackson)

See! Now you don't have to waste time reading all of Olavo's yin=yang or buy his books. Just listen to Michael Jackson. And my grandmother. Between the two, you'll get a great foundation in life. (no need to thank me)

They laughed at Socrates because he was the ugly, poor, barefoot son of a lowly stone-cutter, who challenged authority by humbly admitting "I DON'T know..."

Your 'greatest Brazilian philsopher' would do well to learn from him.

Se fiscaliza!

While agreeing with some of your comments about Socrates, particularly the statement about his humble final days (along with his clever admission to “know nothing”), there is one of your remarks which warrants further clarification.

Despite Socrates’ complete detachment to power, wealth and personal "glory" during most of his life, why do you object to the view expressing one's belief that he should be considered one of the World's Greatest Philosophers? This particular opinion, dear sir, I beg to differ...

Firstly, I must apologize for the late response, for there are way too so many issues on a variety of issues, against insufficient time to read & reply to each one of them.

You appear to be questioning two previous entries namely: the “intellectual captive” versus the “switching” proclivities of extremism. Well, such individuals are actually “captive to radicalism” or “the radical dominant view of a given time period”. As such, one such individual could easily have been “captive” to Marxism Leninist thoughts and ideas during his/her youth, while later becoming an advocate for “Extreme Right”.

Actually, dear sir, most extreme positions, particular in connection to political theory, are not nearly as far apart from one another as it may appear; instead of looking at the Political Spectrum linearly (with a “clear” left & right at each opposite end, one should rather attempt to regard the concept as a Great Circle, whereby the extreme views actually touch (with perhaps a dotted line displaying where they meet). In order to illustrate this view, consider Marxism Leninism (in the extreme left) and compare with the Historical National Socialism (Nazi Germany): although they are in the opposite ends of philosophical & political discussion, if/when one takes a closer look, he/she will notice that they are not THAT different in substance and for most practical purposes; with the exception of their views on religion, private property, and the (OFFICIAL) view of racial equality, their equal predominance of one-party state, intolerance of opposition, restriction of individual’s personal rights and freedom of movement, among many other issues, make them MUCH more similar that distinct, in spite of all the propaganda and fanfare from either side… (Stalin was actually a closet admirer of Adolf Hitler’s abilities!)

Hopefully, my belated clarification has been sufficiently clear…

In order to illustrate this view, consider Marxism Leninism (in the extreme left) and compare with the Historical National Socialism (Nazi Germany): although they are in the opposite ends of philosophical & political discussion, if/when one takes a closer look, he/she will notice that they are not THAT different in substance and for most practical purposes; with the exception of their views on religion, private property, and the (OFFICIAL) view of racial equality, their equal predominance of one-party state, intolerance of opposition, restriction of individual’s personal rights and freedom of movement, among many other issues, make them MUCH more similar that distinct, in spite of all the propaganda and fanfare from either side… (Stalin was actually a closet admirer of Adolf Hitler’s abilities!)

Spot on, old chap

Your argument is bloody marvelous, if I may be permitted to say so, you cunning old fox.

While agreeing with some of your comments about Socrates, particularly the statement about his humble final days (along with his clever admission to “know nothing”), there is one of your remarks which warrants further clarification.

Despite Socrates’ complete detachment to power, wealth and personal "glory" during most of his life, why do you object to the view expressing one's belief that he should be considered one of the World's Greatest Philosophers? This particular opinion, dear sir, I beg to differ...

The issue is not what WE consider Socrates to be...it is that Socrates' philosophy would not allow you to pick some 'greatest'.

We talk about the Socratic Method...not follow a set of beliefs of Socrates.

The 'greatest' eliminates searching. Socrates always opened pathways and encouraged analysis of each of them. He is considered one of the foundations of logic.

Let's look at how A BRAZILIAN gushes over 'the greatest Brazilian philosopher' and fails to see his own contradictions with said philosopher. U.S. Observer also agrees with Olavo, but says things that are completely the opposite of A Brazilian, who agrees with Olavo and Costinha doesn't know that the hell is going on. He's just pissing into the wind.

All of this because we are comparing our societies on the basis of finding which is the 'greatest'. That's stupid. Dialogue e' acabou. Kaput. Non-existent. In trying to make round pegs fit into square holes, we become and say things that are illogical. Then we turn to religious quotes to make the round pegs look square. Otherwise, insanity. The Oracles called Socrates the wisest man. In court, like Jesus, he was stuck between proving that he was a common man, just asking questions, while not calling the revered Oracles, liars.

Just follow some of these threads on this brazzil forum. Little has changed. Olavo's article is closer to the DoubleSpeak of the Ministry of Truth of Orwell's 1984 than it is to Socrates peeling away of layers of illogic.

Believe ME rather than your lying eyes.

Socrates would turn in his grave but he believed that the opposite of death is life so he's probably asking questions of the Alpha Centaurians right now.

Firstly I must state that I very much enjoy reading your entries, and appreciate – to a certain extent – your “World View”.

Regarding your comments, I will attempt to address the main points therein.

“We talk about the Socratic Method...not follow a set of beliefs of Socrates”

When expressing my disagreement to your objection that Socrates might be considered “one of the World’s Greatest Philosophers”, I was not necessarily expressing my opinion or agreement to his wise council for humanity; rather I was simply referring to Socrates’ deserving recognition by posterity that his significant “contribution” warranted prominent entitlements and special honors. The credits attributed (which I previously quoted in agreement) appear to be particularly fitting to a scholar who “is considered one of the founders of logic” (as you rightly stated)

Regarding your implied sorrow for the current absence of “dialogue” on philosophical issues, along with the disappearance of independent thought - formulated without guidance from either Princes or Prophets – we are in total agreement (although I dare say that this “phenomenon” is precisely what our current “discussion” represents). Indeed, generally speaking, the “proletariat” is inherently limited by its mundane, trivial existence, circumspect either by governmental edicts or mythological texts, without which the uneducated masses – now numbering in the “billions” - would be totally lost… Yet, your entry implies that such “dialogue” no longer exists, but I beg for the impertinence of a counterstatement: Dialogue has hardly ever existed throughout history among the overall population ever since the first (known) civilizations emerged on Earth. In addition, because most of Human History unfolded fettered within highly authoritarian conditions, one could hardly expect the rare phenomenon of enlightened, independent thought to be widespread; after all, considering the remarkably unusual conditions of Athens in the 5th & 4th centuries B.C. it is not surprising that the rare jewels of wisdom & freewill could actually emerge.

Furthermore, given the limited nature of human condition along with the aforementioned authoritarianism of most societies (not fully unlike Orwell’s clever fiction) is equally not surprising that the attribute of wisdom tends to be generally post-mortally granted to a limited group of individuals, rather than recognized by their contemporary culture or polity.

Finally, a final personal observation which is not entirely digressed from the matter at hand… While you wittily stated “BELIEVE ME RATHER THAN YOUR LYING EYES”, I also dare including yet another contention based on views elaborated by Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) as follows: “all physical objects are mind-dependent and can have no existence apart from a mind that is conscious of them”. Consequently, according to such precept, I could hardly believe YOU or literally ANYONE else…

It used to be O for Obama. Now it´s OB for Obama and Biden. All we need now is the GYN to be added and they will have carte blanche to reach up inside and tie America´s tubes forever.

Your Grace!
At some point, during a rather brief (nearly missed) entry above, you have stated:

"August, you have another 8 days to blog under this name. Starting Mid Night of 31st of August, thou shall be known as September"

Your clever efforts in utilizing orthographic analogies within humorous remarks, in connection with my selected designation, are unusual, but amusing...

Well, dear Sir, I fear that I must express my inability to indulge... Yet, if such matters were to be taken into account, I could possibly consider utilizing the equivalent alias of OCTAVIUS during the month of OCTOBER, if by that time you remain inclined to suggest the same approach... After all, such alias would be, to a certain extent, within the "spirit" of your funny suggestion, whereas it would not comprome the integrity of my specially selected, honorable "name"...

Normally I do not bother correcting the (frequent) errors resulting from the absence of editing on my part... Yet, the last instance warrants such an effort, lest it could be misunderstood.

Where it reads: " whereas it would not comprome the integrity of my specially selected, honorable name"

Should be replaced by: "whereas it would not compromISE the integrity of my specially selected, honorable name"

ME o MISE or left out what IS?

You appear to be questioning two previous entries namely: the “intellectual captive” versus the “switching” proclivities of extremism. Well, such individuals are actually “captive to radicalism” or “the radical dominant view of a given time period”. As such, one such individual could easily have been “captive” to Marxism Leninist thoughts and ideas during his/her youth, while later becoming an advocate for “Extreme Right”.

No. You said initially "captive" because you thought he was a "right wing" nutcase, and when you learned he knew the left inside out, then you changed your argument.

You are shooting adjectives in all directions to see if any of them hits your target.

Be more logical. Analyze his text and say where he is lying. The worst you all can do is to say "silly", which is silly of your part.

After all, such alias would be, to a certain extent, within the "spirit" of your funny suggestion, whereas it would not comprome the integrity of my specially selected, honorable "name"...

May I hasten to bring to your attention that, in spite of your having specially selected the honorable name of "Augustus", certain commentators who are unaware of your noble background are insisting in addressing you as "August"? That was the reason for my humorous comment

Begging your pardon, may I now implore you to continue with your mini essays (in prim and proper Queen´s English) which are full of substance and rich in prose? I promise that henceforth I shall not interfere in your lectures, unless you demand my humble opinion which nobody wants to hear.

With the possible exception of praises for "Helvetia" or its most infamous denizen, any observation which Your Grace might elect to submit, would surely be received as a great honor, and considered with the utmost respect.

As to for the momentary "lapses" into ordinary forms speech, which you appear to greatly object, I must risk the impertinence of presumption, by reminding you a noteworthy detail which bears a significant impact on this matter. When recalling my daily exposure to the informal disposition of fellow New Yorkers, you might be more inclined to embrace a more forgiving outlook. Perhaps on account of the charming nature of so casual a form of speech, typically used in Chelsea or Lower Manhattan, I find myself unwittingly influenced under certain circumstances... Nevertheless, when issues of higher caliber or greater significance are being considered, I remain immune from any such infringement upon my prose & overall style.

While Her Majesty would indubitably frown upon the use of disagreeable language, deeming as unsuitable for “proper gentlemen”, particularly in court , I would have expected a more forgiving retort and liberal posture emanating from your quarters, always taking into account that Your Grace possess a Brazilian heart…

Permitting myself the use of the American term “bottom line”, most gentlemen are (or should be) in a position to recognize the appropriate circumstances when excessive propriety and formality might be deemed inadequate; thus explaining certain entries where informal, relaxed discussions generally pertaining to humorous, emotional and exceedingly ordinary themes.

Finally, I would be rather astonished if I were to obtain a minimum positive feedback regarding my formal style, and excessively elaborate descriptions, considering the overall disposition and (apparent) expectations of our fellow bloggers. In essence, I dare say that consider it very unlikely that our “new friends” would hardly agree with your noble request for greater formality in speech…

If I wrote an article to an African American newspaper saying that there are many whites in Bahia who call grown black men "Neguinho" (little black boy)they would raise hell. They don't know the cultural context of Bahia and would make an error judging that society and I would be in error for not placing the phrase into some type of cultural context.

I can't believe you admitted that! How long did it take you to realise that? I can imagine it: Adrian Erik running around screaming in singson Ebonics about the racist Brazilians calling him little blackie! Finally, a Brazilian familiar with the American cultural context and the inevitable light in which Adrian Erik would have interpreted it calms him down and explains the Brazilian context: "
Olha, irmão. Aqui no Brasil, chamar alguém 'neguinho' não é uma má palavra, pela simples razão de que não há qualquer razão para que seja uma má palavra." Adrian Erik struggles with coming to terms with this for weeks, months, maybe even years. Finally he relents, conceding this difference between Brazilians and Americans. But he is steadfast in contention that when it comes to race relations and racial discrimination and what have you -- it is silly to make distinctions between the two. After all, what possible significance could the simple absence of segregation over 500 years of history have?

Oh, well. But he seems to have made some progress. Perhaps one day he'll acknowledge that Brazilians speak a different language from Americans!

you arnt going to win with brazuca, inspite of the fact that leaders at the highest level in brazil ackowledge racism in brazil. in spite of the fact that you see national campains against racism on national tv (according to brazuca its just brain washing from the commies). inspite of the fact that most afro brazilians have some sort of story of discrimination.

in spite of the fact that the college entry for afro brazilians is what ? 1 percent ? plane flights overwelmingly white. government officials, overwelmingly white, actors , actresses and entertainers, overwelmingly white, people of wealth and power, overwelmingly white.....you better get in touch with reality.

this is brazil, slave trade was differant here (at leaset deducting from what brazuca sais), it ended afer everyone elses and slaves were stll brought in to porto das galinhas 10 or more years after, i mean how could that affect anyone ? even though they were set free, with absolutly no infrastructure, where white europeans were welcomed in the south ( yes, the whitening of the south is a fact)

in spite of the fact that most brazilian people would admit that there is some form of discrimination based on racism in brazil , there is still room for pre julia mentalities

so, if you see white people pat a black person on the head, call him a little black boy, or a monkey...just think "pre julia",and, just relax and enjoy it

that the prison populations and favela populations are more black/brown than white , but becaue it is brazil its differant

and , that torture of that black /brown population is differant than when the dictatorship practiced torture on white people

and, that the blood of a black person shot by a lost bullet in the favela runs differant than if they were shot somewhere else in the world

its just differant, after all, brazil speaks a differant language than the united states or south africa ( must be something in the english language that really causes racism)

you arnt going to win with brazuca

I don't need to 'win' with Brazuca. Anymore than Robinho would kick a ball into the stands and shout "GOOOOOOOLLLLLLLL!" He has ZERO impact on the price of mangoes. You have to define the game and the players. Keep your eyes focused on the obstacles in front of you. That way you don't waste time and energy. The radical right-wing (of which Brazuca is a staunch supporter) loves to divert your energy. Loves to have you arguing silly points ("Obama covers his genitals" "Obama might be a secret muslim"). This diverts attention from the bankruptcy of the radical right agenda. One just has to be careful of their talk of 'cultural superiority' and using the Church to 'steer' and 'control' the 'misfits'.

This was the same language of nearly every dictatorship in the 20th century: Papa and Baby Doc Duvalier, Trujillo, Somoza, Batista, Pinochet and the brutal reigns of Argentina and Brazil's Generals.

In these places, those who demonstrated against the rule of self-appointed 'elites' backed by a powerful church were called The Left. When Americans rebelled against the rule of elites backed by a powerful church, we called it Democracy.

Go figure.

The lunatic Right likes to play with words. But don't watch the beguiling face of the scorpion...watch how he positions his venomous tail.

In the 50's, visitors went to Brazil, hoping to find a 'racial democracy'. Their hope was that racist whites had abandoned their claim and practice of racial superiority and had risen into the multi-color world of universal humanity. Instead, in their words, they found a society where various hues of colors had descended into the color-caste pecking order of white-dominated racism.

Similar to the the racism of many of the mulattos who joined the racist whites in South Africa and the domination of the light-skinned creoles in Haiti and the Dominican Republic.

Race is socially defined, therefore, how race'ism' manifests itself, has a chameleon face...with the same results. Explain to the scores of dead black and brown youths, that they were not stopped and killed because they were "neguinhos" but, here's the new word...they were "marginais."

I understand why Brazilians don't like the word racism. The word is hot lava, searing the skin of people, particularly whites. And the United States and South Africa developed racism to such an ignorant level. Perhaps many Brazilians are reacting to their association with American-style and South African-style racism and this obscures the ability (or willingness) to really weed out the disease in Brazil. That's said as a point of discussion. Most Brazilians do not have their heads under the sands on this issue. (they must all be communists).

Obviously, there are other issues in Brazil besides racism. Which is more important? Which leg of a three-legged stool is the most important?

Many bloggers accustomed to this site are probably familiar with some relevant details of my background as well as on a myriad of irrelevant topics along with rather significant issues I’m inclined to discuss. Yet, because this particular thread appears to be visited by individuals relatively less experienced with the colorful characters of “Brazzil.com”, it seems appropriate that I should take a moment to indulge them with a few relevant minutiae, prior to taking the courageous step of addressing, for the second time, the dangerous and unsavory topic of race relations in Brazil.

As a member of a relatively privileged family of aristocratic European origin, I was fortunate for being spared from facing many of the challenges that most Brazilians must confront: poverty, racism, discrimination, and unhindered access to goods & services.

Raised with the loving care of an affectionate black nanny, I was in a position to witness first hand the countless limitations inherent to an appalling condition based on racially inspired circumstances:
Abandonment by her own family at an early stage, for lacking the bare minimum means to provide for her upbringing;
Exclusion to a limited educational system, deficient of the necessary resources to provide for the underprivileged (which ensured her inability to dream and aspire for improved conditions);
Exposure to the term “neguinha” which, although applied affectionately (as implied by Brazuca) was clearly laced with humor, every time it was used within my family;
Absence of any measure of self-esteemed resulting from a deeply ingrained acceptance of her “natural inferiority”;
Acceptance of a “life purpose” which was unquestionably restricted to the service of “good people” who were so “kind to provide decent treatment”;
Endurance of distressing, psychological “abuse”, inadvertently caused by relatives who amusingly prompted me as a toddler to “kiss her hands” without “any danger” from “catching blackness”, thus triggering her laughter…

If I were in a position to devote sufficient time for reflection upon this crucial, formative period of my life, it is quite possible that I might provide additional and equally significant illustrations of what I have witnessed: an existence devoid of hope but enriched by concealed humiliation; an existence in abject poverty and daily endurance of abuse and humiliation.

Because the recognition of the extreme gravity of these issues, along with their unclear causes and overwhelming impact, represent a particularly distressing indication; black Brazilian children are sentenced to a life deprived not only of hope, but the very awareness of that any problem may exist… Because of the “color blind myth” proclaimed by so many Brazilians, myself included, society is precluded from considering the necessary measures to address and rectify the errors of ancestors…

Similar to a virus co-existing within a healthy-looking host, apparently deprived of any symptom of racial “illness”; because it is so firmly and indelibly impressed within the national culture, mores and traditions, any race-related matter is readily dismissed as a non-issue, even for noble individuals of character and integrity who sincerely believe that Brazil is a country without racism…

Perhaps my very long exposure to Anglo-American culture and institutions is responsible to so late an awareness of this serious condition, since, as the previous blogger “asp” brilliantly concluded “there must be something in the English language that really causes racism”… I suppose this gentleman is correct.

Because the recognition of the extreme gravity of these issues, along with their unclear causes and overwhelming impact, represent a particularly distressing indication; black Brazilian children are sentenced to a life deprived not only of hope, but the very awareness of that any problem may exist… Because of the “color blind myth” proclaimed by so many Brazilians, myself included, society is precluded from considering the necessary measures to address and rectify the errors of ancestors…

Ah... what!?

Based on anecdotal evidence of one case you saw then you conclude that Brazil has a problem with racism?

Brazil has problems, and the ones described by you (abject poverty, life without hope and with humiliation) sounds to be more related to social status than color. People of all colors are subject to that. It is a socio-economic problem, not a racial one.

First of all, the notion of "there must be racism" is entirely based on ideology. You want to see racism, and so you see it. You have no evidence, but you want to anyways.

Second, you extend the notion of "humiliation" to an entire group of people entirely based on the obsolete idea of "race", regardless if they do feel that way or not. Therefore you look at them from above, as if you were somehow superior and they were helpless victims that need to be taken care of. You have the preconceived idea that all of them are poor bastards, dumb and needy. This way you don't solve the problem and create racism.

The effect of black racism is that otherwise healthy, shining, self-confident and self-reliant, full of life people are turned into pathetic victims on their knees begging for help with the burden that is their lives. Hating others and themselves, for things they have never experienced themselves, but they are told them to be "true".

For the white side of this racist ideology, they just reinforce their beliefs that they are somehow special.

This is how it works, plain and simple.

People make such a big deal about what the other is thinking. What is the problem with the idea that it can get "blackness"? Don't we live in a free society!? Are you going to start controlling everybody's thoughts? What does it change in your life? The only problems with racism are related to education and employment, and for that we already have a law against it. The truth is that some can't pass in the vestibular and want to find an excuse.

inspite of the fact that leaders at the highest level in brazil ackowledge racism in brazil.

They also recognize that the FARC is a people's movement against oppression, regardless of the approval ratings of Uribe in Colombia being the highest in South America. Ideology.

in spite of the fact that you see national campains against racism on national tv (according to brazuca its just brain washing from the commies).

The same people that are friends with Chavez and support the FARC.

inspite of the fact that most afro brazilians have some sort of story of discrimination

Brazilians don't know what discrimination is because they never experienced it. Therefore if you pass by them without saying "good morning" that can be considered "racism".

in spite of the fact that the college entry for afro brazilians is what ? 1 percent ?

Depends, if you are using the correct number of "afro-brazilians" then they are only 7%. I think it's bigger than that.

If you are counting public universities only, ah.... the pen and paper of the vestibular must be racist then. Hahahaha. Their numbers are smaller because they can't pass.

Ironically the number asians must be below 2% in Brazil and they are many times more than that in public universities. They deserved it, didn't they?

plane flights overwelmingly white. government officials, overwelmingly white, actors , actresses and entertainers, overwelmingly white, people of wealth and power, overwelmingly white....

Yes, if you use the Brazilian definition of white. No way in hell if you use the Anglo-saxon obsessive notion of race, where even spaniards and portuguese aren't "white" enough.

this is brazil, slave trade was differant here (at leaset deducting from what brazuca sais), it ended afer everyone elses and slaves were stll brought in to porto das galinhas 10 or more years after

By then many descendents of the slaves were already free and free to own other slaves or participate of the society. Far from perfect, but not the obsessive segregation like in the USA.

even though they were set free, with absolutly no infrastructure, where white europeans were welcomed in the south ( yes, the whitening of the south is a fact)

Welcomed? Looking from another angle it could be called "blackening", since the "master race" would be dilluted... hahahaha

The notion of "whitening" is one of the most illogical ever conceived for the following reasons:

- you can't elimitate another race by mixing without destroying yourself. If you are really a racist what would you gain by turning whites into something else?
- there was no obligation by the part of the european immigrants to get along with others. Some of them got married and had kids, that was entirely out of free will;
- there were never laws or propaganda from the government about "whitening";

Should I continue or is it enough?

This whole "whitening" story sounds more like anti-miscigenation propaganda. It is a way of stigmatize the union of different peoples as "the evil white man's plan"

that the prison populations and favela populations are more black/brown than white , but becaue it is brazil its differant

How does that imply causality?

brazil speaks a differant language than the united states or south africa ( must be something in the english language that really causes racism)

I think it's cultural, but not the language.

ASP, nice try

I think the previous comment subject was not precise. It's nice try in the sense that you gave your best, but it still wasn't enough. You would need to learn more about Brazil, but then you would find out that there's no racism in Brazil.

That's said as a point of discussion. Most Brazilians do not have their heads under the sands on this issue. (they must all be communists).

Go tell them that:

http://nacaomestica.org/

It is really amazing how the powers that be America simply cannot let go of the bone of power like a starving dog. They will go to any extent.
All the more amazing is to see an allien living in the US trying to be more American than a native one. As one would expect, everything within the realm of human capacity will be done to detract Obama's candidacy.
But on second thought it is no surprise, it is American democracy at its best. With the help of the media Americans even believe in Santa Claus. ... Every people has the government it deserves.

the parasitic little marxists of the world and their un-holy self destructive union with islamo-facists is comical,,,this disfunctional relationship,,,is about as sensical as a naive ,hardup,lonely, american marrying a illegal alien so they may remain in the u.s.,once that illegal gets that green card ,,they are headed for divorce.....

incidentally,,,when they hang the last marxist,,for cost cutting measure ,,,it might be suggested ,,that the gallows be outfitted with double nooses for the islamo-terrorists/facists.....

JOAO - your comments will always be welcome!

Milord, I thank you very much for ordering me to continue commenting on issues that interest us or not. Of course, as usual, your reply was not just a mini essay,but a long discourse which-in the absence of any protests- was appreciated by every single blogger who has had the fortune to make your acquaintance in this site.

I would be rather astonished if I were to obtain a minimum positive feedback regarding my formal style, and excessively elaborate descriptions, considering the overall disposition and (apparent) expectations of our fellow bloggers.

Alas, you are unlikely to get any positive or negative feed back on your "formal style", because everyone is speechless and their fingers are too numb to react and express their "outrage" at you style!

In essence, I dare say that consider it very unlikely that our “new friends” would hardly agree with your noble request for greater formality in speech…

If our "new friends" do not agree with my "noble" request, I may consider retreating from this forum and start blogging in "Al Jazeera".

Also I urge you to reflect on what "A Brazilian" said about our great comrades-in-arms FARC

Nor in California, for that matter.

There is hardly any person I know (with the possible exception of the US Observer) who is more staunchly anti-communist and, particularly, more anti-Islamic than I am!!!
Yet, I could not possibly object more to a nonsensical comment you have made, as follows:

” the parasitic little marxists of the world and their un-holy self destructive union with islamo-facists is comical,,,this disfunctional relationship,,,is about as sensical as a naïve”

Although there is historical evidence demonstrating the possibility of drastically opposing groups to unite, temporarily, against a common foe (such as the Hindu-Islamic efforts against the British in India, as well as socio-democrats alliance with communists in Imperial Russia), there is even stronger evidence against an extremely unlikely alliance between the materialist advocates of an atheist philosophy (such as Marxism-Leninism) and the fanatically obsessive disciples of Islam (whose principles and ideology opposes and reviles godlessness above all else).

As such, while opposing both of these dangerous groups (with all my heart), upon reading the above statement, it became imperative that I should attempt to convey this drastically important detail to your attention, thereby enabling you to focus on your enemies accordingly. With such consideration in mind, it must be further emphasized the infinitely more dangerous threat which the Islamic World represents (particularly its fundamentalist branch), as their main objective lies in conversion of Humanity (surviving elements) into primitive submissive Muslims and to destroy any and all remaining infidel who refuse(s) to abide by their indescribably horrific beliefs!

Whereas the followers of the Marxist-Leninist philosophy are certainly willing to take (nearly) any step deemed necessary for the establishment of totalitarian one-party states, with this group, there remains a residue of humanity moderating their political convictions… Although many radical leftist groups (such as the former Red Brigade in Europe or the Shining Path in South America) would not hesitate to plan & execute merciless bombings (mostly) in strategic governmental facilities, there are very rare instances of explosions in public places (such as in the airport in Vienna during the 1980’s) where large numbers of innocent individuals would be killed… In essence, the communist tools and methods, as brutal as they can be, could not POSSIBLY be equated to the inhuman suicidal methods employed by the Islamic fundamentalist groups, whose attacks are clearly designed to kill the largest possible number of innocent victims!

In order to conclude this exceedingly distressing view, I must concede that, if I were to have a choice between the unfortunate victories by either group in their struggle against the Western World, I would, without a trace of hesitation prefer a limited existence with a totalitarian communist society over survival as a submitted religious automaton praying towards Mecca several times a day… After all is said and done, in the very least, Marxism-Leninism remains a western philosophy (of German origin), and advocates the unreachable but logical lofty goals of an Egalitarian Atheist society…

unfortunatly, your comments dont convince me...you use semantics to dance around , but, dont really refute my points in any way that changes my mind...

i can point out that we are in agreement about certain things :
1) we dont want brazil to imitate in any way or fasion the way the united states deals with its reacial issues . the united states suffers from a huge racial devide that is pathetic and unwanted

2) we both hate farc. farc is raping brazil , kidnapping brazilians off the border, and, doing heavy dealing of drugs and arms with huge gangs in rio and sao paulo. this certainly contributes to the chaos that is decimating brazils largest metropolices

and, i definitly see some truth to what you are saying about marxist influences in many political parties and their ideological hookups with it.i remember seeing a pt senator on one of those cable government channals, a very casual "coffe in brasilia hour" type of thing. this senator was saying , after morales nationalised the oil companies , draping the bolivian flag over petrobras, that the pt was not ideologicaly aligned with petrobras. later, globe carefully showed morales was lying about contracts. of course globo is sponcered by petrobras, but, the contracts were valid . this senator thinks its better to be aligned with morales than protect brazilian interests...

but, i stop short of thinking anything left is comunist. for sure, i think south america should be concerned with the chavez, morales, correa, ortega , hooked up with castro, movement. they are closing down tv stations and stoping oposition candidates ,making strange moves and statements .

and, i know you wont agree with this, but, as much as i dont trust the pt, lula and his administration has done good things for brazil. his ability to slickly play down the middle of chavez and bush has been incredible. kudos from me to him for that.

and, i really think its silly associating obama with marxism or any of these marxist people , which i see people trying to do, its pretty tired and pathetic.

i want capatilism with a concience. the united states is hyper capatalism, and, they need obama after this administration has brought the united states as low as it can go since i can remember. the republicans are horrible, they have tanked the united states

but, i find your take on racism in brazil and afro brazilian culture , naive

you can think anything you want about what i know about brazil or who i am or where im from, but, it doesnt mean anything to the actual ideas im dealing with , which are based on fact and my experiances

you can semantacise all you want whether there is racism in brazil or not, but, brazil's slave past is severly affecting its present. you can use the rationalisation "its soicial not racial...", great, if you can get to brazil's social problems, you will help deal with the racial problem. they are circles that cross...but, you cant deny that brazil's slave past is playing a big part in many of the social issues of today.

Without any further ado, I must only state that, many years ago, during my youth in Rio & Sao Paulo or even during the first years following my arrival in the United States, my thoughts and convictions pertaining to the topic of Racism in Brazil were PRECISELY the SAME as yours today… As such, it is completely unnecessary for you to endeavor to further discuss further the many fine details of your views on this issue, for my benefit, as each and everyone of them (so far) strangely resembles the same arguments I used to employ in the past when addressing this subject matter …

In fact, I clearly recall spending many hours at different locations debating my first American friends in a valiant effort (or should I say “mission) not merely to explain, but also convince everyone that there was no racism in my country, and – most importantly- any appearance to that effect resulted from the classist attitudes of certain segments of society. As such, while reading your (frightening similar) text, a few minutes ago, there was a certain indescribable ethereal feeling, as it occasionally appeared as if I were reading (or listening to) my younger self… It was an unreal experience, which would be difficult to convey.

How could I have been so utterly blind during my youth? I asked myself… Yet, how could I possibly have known any better? Indeed, there was no factual evidence in clear display (at that time – as far as I am concerned) to permit the detection of the type of racism which I attempted to describe above (and failed drastically). Because it involves so DEEPLY ingrained a phenomenon, impacting our culture across so many centuries, and in so many levels that, for anyone who remains within its boundaries, it is nearly unfeasible to perceive or detect… Furthermore, you are correct in one statement, one must be willing to see Racism (where there appears to be none); even then success is all but uncertain, without the clarity resulting from a sincere and impartial glance from the outside…

Consequently, I shall conclude this line of thought (for now) as there is no point in attempting to describe colors for the blind.

Please accept my sincere best wishes!

I fully endorse your views during the last reply to A BRAZILIAN, particularly in connection with the dangers represented by the "Chavez Gang" - the greatest current threat to peace and stability in South America!

JOAO
I was completely unaware that FARC was (secretly) involved in the unprecedented upsurge of violent crimes plaguing Rio & Sao Paulo! I’m completely distressed, surprised, and overwhelmed… ( ) Yet, the feeling of “surprise” is briskly interrupted as soon as the unquestionable association (if not secret alliance) existing between Hugo Chavez and the Colombian Terrorist group… It all made sense – immediately! Hopefully Brasilia (or at least the Senate) is aware of this nefarious scheme financed by the vile Bolivarians in Caracas, and that steps are being considered in order to address this “northerly dark cloud” hovering upon the Brazilian metropolitan areas!

if you can get to brazil's social problems, you will help deal with the racial problem. they are circles that cross...but, you cant deny that brazil's slave past is playing a big part in many of the social issues of today.

The slave past is, as it says, the past. It says nothing about the future, and promoting racism under the pretext of fighting racism ("positive racism" as the criminals in the Lula's government call it) won't solve anything and will create real racism.

You wrote a lot and didn't say anything.

There is no racism in Los Angeles south from USC to El Segundo.

Your amusing remark about "what steps you would take" in case our new friends failed to agree with your "noble" request...

Well, even in a completely hypothetical scenario, designed exclusively for humorous purposes, I must emphasize that no civilized gentleman, would EVER consider utilizing the Middle Eastern internet site designed for the purpose of broadcasting the views and opinions of the infamous Islamic World! Such website is clearly a propaganda tool controlled by the evil, primitive Islamic fundamentalists – in fact, my objection to their very existence is so strong that I find myself unable to type their name....

Naturally I could not have expected any different reaction from you.
It is a matter "of course" that you could not have "read" OR "heard" anything I stated...

No hard feelings... I DO understand!

brazil is an enormas country with a tremendous variety of opinions and out looks.

its very interesting and good to hear some of the brazilian opinions about the chavez/morales/correa/ortega=castro, that arent normaly expressed in the brazilian mainstream media , or daily life...i always knew they were out there, but, suffocated down here...for sure you dont hear it that often...you dont have to love the united states to see how dumb marxism is ( i finaly read the comunist manefesto...my god what a frightening peice of "put a finger in your chest and tell you what you can and cant do and what you should do, and, by the way never start your own business or you are the enemy, and, where ever you are in the world you need a violent comunist revolution " garbage....

maybe you could help me understand something out here in brazil...

with such huge vibrant metropolis cities like rio and sao paulo,why are all the major tv stations setting up and broadcasting in blumenau ?

at least, if you look at the novelas and most regualar tv shows, it sure looks like bumenau.......

There are indeed many Brazilian citizens (including members of the Senate who are not members of the governing party) who are fully aware of the danger posed by the infamous Bolivarian led "Chavez gang". The questionable “elected officials” (all populists by definition) allegedly in charge of Bolivia, Ecuador and Nicaragua are merely puppets of the near-totalitarian Strong-Man Hugo Chavez. As for Cuba, particularly now that Fidel is officially (but not completely) out of power, it can be surely considered as yet another Chavez stooge; After all, it is imperative to recall that, without petro-dollars (or Petro-Euros) along with nearly cost-free oil from Caracas, it would be nearly impossible for the inherently corrupt Cuban communist party to govern its bankrupt, inefficient, and abused economy!

Yet, I must warn you that, as a holder of dual citizenship and long time resident of New York city, I may not exactly fit your expected profile of a genuine "Brazilian voice out there." Nevertheless, I may assure you, with utmost conviction, that ever since my youth in Rio, when I developed interest for international politics and political-economic related matters, I have always taken a strongly anti-communist stance; therefore, you should not be disappointed with any conjecture to the effect that my views on this important topic might have been in anyway influenced by my long exposure to life in the United States of America – this was surely NOT the case!

Furthermore, I am convinced that there are many fellow citizens, who actually reside in Brazilian territory (and I’m aware of some of them – my family included), who share our views and my anxiety in connection with the significant threat Caracas and its neo-communists puppets pose not only for Brazil, but the entirety of South America!

Ask Punjab. He knows the answer.

As I have not been to Brazil in over two years, I have obviously no access to Brazilian TV broadcasts (unfortunately!).

Yet, considering the overwhelming upsurge of violence in both major metropolitan areas when compared with the highly civilized, economically stable, and relatively safe conditions in the State of Santa Catarina, I would not be surprised if the major TV stations had decided (soundly) to shift their operations to a location where daily operations (specially outside scenes) could proceed without hindrance of criminals and terrorists...

i spent 8 hard working years in new york myself...

and, it looks like ive seen some of what you say from other brazilians on here , also, its not just your point of veiw . its just that, i really dont hear that in the daily media or daily life interaction .

i do think any thinking brazilian is against farc...lula just pledged to uribe in columbia that he is going to make an effort to contain the borders agianst farc (maybe some will think its a hollow promise, but, it is on the record...which is good...)

ok, i must confess im joking with a brazilian and brazuca,blumenau is what looks like is being depicted on brazilian novela tv. i mean, even if its set in the northeast, the cast looks like blumenau...

of course,i cant forget the one globo one night special in when the deslumbrant brazilian black actress , elizibeth filhardes , played an ex protitute who ends up working for one of her former john's family , as a maid .now that is a black roll , for acting ,in brazil, it killed two stereytypes with one stone...

[I posted this on the comments section of the previous Olavo de Carvalho article, but since it went "under", I suspect few would have seen. I was responding to Adrien Erik (the Uber Nigga aka Uber Engineer), and since he repeats a number of the same charge, I reproduce it below]

I am a social conservative. I made a marriage of convenience with the neocons. This was because they tended toward my social conservatism marginally more than the liberals, at least enough to put in judges who may overturn Roe v. Wade and return the right to decide such matters to individual states (so that Virginia, for example, can outlaw abortion while Massachusetts can carry on merrily its prenatal killing).

I acknowledge that Americans are racist by nature. Unlike you I don't make a distinction between liberal Americans and conservative Americans on this matter. An American is an American is an American. Recognising the importance and impact of the American culture wars on the rest of the world, I sided with that side of (racist) America which advocated for a less destructive popular culture that was going global than the other part of (racist) America which wished to hasten the moral decadence with full steam ahead, dragging the rest of the world with it. (For example, when Madonna kisses Brittany Spears on the lips, not only America sees it -- the whole world sees it!)

As to superiority of cultures, I actually believe some cultures are superior to others. Since I believe there is an objective standard to apply, I am not a relativist. Those cultures that align more closely with Christian prescriptions are ipso facto superior to those cultures that don't. To the extent that Western culture is more Christian than non-Western culture, then to that extent it is superior. For example, as regards family values, Asian cultures are simply superior to most Western cultures today. Western cultures may be superior to other cultures in some respects. But for me there's an objective means of determining this.

Obviously there are those (like Ric) who would racialise the meaning of the West, but clearly I don't agree with this lot. In fact, I rarely refer to "Western culture", because I think this is too vague; and besides, Western cultures can be quite different from each other.

I've always made it clear that what I'm advocating for is Christian culture specifically or, failing that, Christian-virtues-friendly cultures (like the aforementioned Asian cultures).

You, on the other hand, being a relativist, have no basis for making evaluations as to what is better or worse, since, given your worldview, such pronouncements are inevitably arbitrary and subjective. Without an objective standard to apply, all you're offering is flatulent sound and fury signifying nothing.

As to my postmillenialist views, what the heck has that got to do with supporting the 20th century's dictators? I have never supported Hitler or Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot. If you're referring to Augusto Pinochet, I was only speaking of the lesser of two evils. While Pinochet was a dictator who killed many of his own people, Allende would have undoubtedly killed many times more. And Allende would have destroyed the economy, whereas Pinochet is responsible for giving Chileans the best standard of living in Ibero-America. This does not mean I support Pinochet as a dictator. It only means that, given only the choice of choosing between two evils, I will choose the lesser evil. Always.

Because the recognition of the extreme gravity of these issues, along with their unclear causes and overwhelming impact, represent a particularly distressing indication; black Brazilian children are sentenced to a life deprived not only of hope, but the very awareness of that any problem may exist… Because of the “color blind myth” proclaimed by so many Brazilians, myself included, society is precluded from considering the necessary measures to address and rectify the errors of ancestors…

I don't deny that there is poverty in Brazil. I just deny that race is causally relevant. While I acknowledge there is a general correlation between skin tone and socio-economic strata, I do not believe that this correlation equals causation.

For example, the fact that Brazilians of Japanese descent constitute a mere 1% of the population and make up about 20% of USP students does not mean that these Brazilians are disproportionately represented in the most prestigious university in South American because they discriminate against other Brazilians. To explain this phenomenon we will have to ascribe causes to the effect. The likes of Ric and other racists would advance that this is because those of Japanese descent are racially superior, that is, they evolved further than other human beings and this is borne out in their statistical over-representation in cognitively demanding tasks such as advance learning. I, on the other hand, not even believing in Darwinian evolution, do not buy this explanation. Instead, I defer to the pronouncements of the creator of mankind, who informs us that "Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people" (Prov 14:34). And in Deuteronomy 28 the Good Book informs us as to the causal relationship between societal obedience and blessings, and conversely societal disobedience and curses. I don't have the time here to explain how non-Christian worldviews such as yours are irrational, but suffice to say that our smug Uber Engineer friend never dared joust with me on the philosophical level, preferring instead to hurl petulant, name-calling missives in the place of discussing foundational presuppositions.

So I believe the correlation between darker skin in Brazil and the lower socio-economic stratum is incidental. I suggest that the primary cause of the enduring poverty and existence of an underclass is worldview, specifically ethics. A society generally abiding by biblical prescriptions will invite blessings, while societies rebelling against the strictures of God will invite his wrath in the form of curses. The Bahamas with its history of Puritanism has invited from divinity positive sanctions. Haiti, with its hard-core paganism, has invited negative sanctions. Cause and effect.

Ah... what!?

Based on anecdotal evidence of one case you saw then you conclude that Brazil has a problem with racism?

[...]

The truth is that some can't pass in the vestibular and want to find an excuse.

Absolutely brilliant! You're possessed of an unusual level of perspicacity as well as apposite perspicuousness in your thoughts. Bravo, and God bless you!

No Racism in Brazil
written by Ric, August 25, 2008
Nor in California, for that matter.

Nor in W.V. or Georgia!

you have to be kidding ? right ? there is no way that japanese immigration equals millions of slaves being uprooted from their homes against their will...

immigrants choose to make the move. while some bring little, many bring their recources and a support system.

why it is so hard for you to understand the reality of salvery is mind boggling

you guys are congradulating yourselves for making below par points. they are almost so befuddled its hard to respond to them .

how can people coming from a slave background , that forbidded a formal education , and, ripped families apart, be expected to compete with people who are able to keep their families in tact and bring their educational values with them ? its like wondering why there arnt many rich afro brazilians when there was no wealth to pass down. the elite have passed down their wealth from generation to generation , and, those forces are in effect today.

by the way, you guys are obviously more formaly educated than i am, but, you lack life wisdom

there are plenty of black and white brazilians that have broken the shackles of poverty to reach a higher level, but, many people in poverty simply pass it down genreration to generation.society owes it to all poor people to try to give them an equal oportunity. do you honestly think schools and civic services are the same in the favelas as in the elite neiborhoods ?

you alls take on afro brazilian social challenges as well as afro brazilian culture is extremly naive .

by the way,i detest all organised religion. and i consider myself more spiritual than any of you.

man, the amount of just gorgeous , beautiful women from the favelas is being revealed by this tv show

you can find just some of the most beautiful mixtures of women there, and, this show proves it over an over again

but these women are pretty much left out of the mainstream brazilian media , who pretty much , with some exceptions, uses european standards of beauty to flash most of the time on the tv , print adds,and movie screen

there is so much talent and beauty that is lost in brazil because of a closed minded media that values european standards of beauty more than the actual reality in brazil ( there are some monster white brazilian beautys also, for sure...white girls with big fine asses)

speaking of beauties and commies in brazil, olinda has one cutie commie mayor and there is one foxy blond running for mayor in florianopolis who is a pc do b....i think id rather debate them than you guys, about the flaws of marxism

you alls take on afro brazilian social challenges as well as afro brazilian culture is extremly naive .

Then please enlighten us. What kind of values this "culture" produces? The problem with the argument that immigration can't be compared with slavery is that many poor immigrants had nothing.

I don't see champions of virtue. If all those "poor afrotards" were really trying hard and were examples I would agree with you, but that's not what happens. Just take a look at abominations such as "funk" in Rio and other things labeled as "culture". It is ridiculous. Is that the behavior of an oppressed people? Are they shaking their asses against their will?

There is no racism in San Marcial, New Mexico.

Postmillenialism was pretty well decimated as an escatological position by the First World War.

One advantage that English has over Portuguese is that English has two words, escatology (study of things future) and scatology (study of Coastie´s favorite subject, poop), whereas in Portuguese it´s the same word.

In Wodehouse, Augustus is called Gussie.

The topic of race & racism refers to a rather difficult and sensitive issue; and the intrinsic difference between many of our core beliefs may render certain debates futile. Yet I trust that civilized humans – gentlemen – are likely to be in a position to “agree to disagree on certain issues.

Because Race & Racisms are hard and sensitive issues, I generally avoid, touching the topic, as one must make great efforts, during such discussions, to avoid touching or hurting other individual's sensitivities... In addition, when the subject under consideration also involves Brazil, which I agree is a particularly special case (in light of its distinct culture and historical legacy), the task becomes, in my opinion, further complicated…

Yet, as indicated in one of my relatively long entries (above), my views on this matter have evolved significantly over the years, from the time (long ago) when I lived in Brazil, until now (as US citizen). When I was a young man, living in Rio de Janeiro, I regarded the issue of racism rather differently; actually I regarded the issue in nearly the same way as “A BRAZILIAN” does now; whereas today, looking from the outside, I take other factors into account; in essence, because I believe the Brazilian culture has buried racism so deeply under the surface, the entire phenomenon cannot be readily identified as “such”, and would require a deeper analysis to fully identify its hidden manifestations, based on indirect symptoms, I now believe that racism still remains alive and well in Brazil, although deeply concealed. In light of views expressed in some of your early entries (suggesting that you are not a “relativist”), the subjective aspects of my current views are highly unlikely for you to seriously consider.

Because we are so very different, there are certain issues where it’s rather unlikely for us to reach an agreement. The difficulty lies on the extreme distinction between our crucial, basic sets of beliefs: whereas you are a deeply religious, social conservative man, I’m a radical atheist who is also a social liberal. On the other hand, although you follow the Bible and I rely strictly upon scientific data (thus excluding meeting of ideas on any spiritual/scientific matters), I trust that a cordial relationship of mutual respect and understand could be established. In addition, It is conceivable that we might agree in certain issues. For instance, your views that “an American is an American regardless” is an example of a statement I could fully endorse, whereas I suspect you would also agree with my view that Islamic fundamentalism poses a serious threat to Western Society and its values; after all because Christianity (your main focus) and Western Humanism (my focus) are both intrinsic elements of Western Culture, Society & Values.

In Wodehouse, Augustus is called Gussie.

You must be talking about P.G.Wodehouse!

Talk about disrespect - LOL
It's a good think my great grand mother has been dead buried over a century... to think of what she would have said of her descendent being refered to as "GUSSIE"
Even she did not speak English (probably just PORT & FRENCH), she would have gotten the gist of it

Well, they call me GUSSIE wherever that place you mentioned...
Well, I bet they call you "LOVERBOY" in NITOROI (based on what I heard about your visits there..... (AT NIGHT)

Wodehouse is an author, not a place, Gussie. Bertie Wooster uses it. I am so disappointed.

I must admit, I'm not familiar with that particular author?
Would he be an American Author? 20th century? Most likely...

Now... your turn to confess....
Was it REALLY business that took you to Niteroi? Be honest now...

mmmmm afro brazilian culture.....where do i begin, or , is it worth it at all? id be talking to someone who mixes up ivette sangalo with daniela mercury....

its better to start by saying , isnt the fact that it moves me, as a human being, enough to qualify it as a worthy artform. after all, something that can give anyone great insight and subtance, move them deeply , inspire them....isnt that reason to say, well, its an art that has great value....

let me ask you some questions:
you do know that afro diasporic art in the form of music and dance is the backbone for the popular music of any culture in the americas that brought over african slaves ? dont you ?

have you heard of : rumba, samba, cha cha cha, tap dance, charlston, lambada ,mambo,rock and roll ,chorino , lindy hop , break dance ,frevo , funk ?

most of the world has...these are world class idioms...

this is way too deep and complex things to convey in one post, i could go on and on as long as you could talk about the bible...

i will just say about baile funk, i have nothing against it at all. it has its place. im not going to cut down one bit an idiom that has some of the finest girls in rio moving...

i cant start talking about sensual and how profound for the human spirit that is, because it will go against your bible philosophies.

and, the bottom line, we come from very differant points of veiw on that subgect.....even if we feel the same way about farc

Except for the FARC comment, I think I lost you

Wasn't the discussion about slavary?
On the other hand, there are some issues which individuals with diametrically opposed point of view can to discuss? It's futile

When people starts quoting bible entries to me, I get flabbergasted...
They do not understand that is the same as quoting professies from the Oracle, it's nonsensical to me... Likewise, they understandaly would not pay attention to Charles Darwin, which is the ONLY thing I would believe... As such, it makes no sense arguing... No side can possibly convince the other, each side is 100% SURE of his/her own conviction...

We may as well talk about something humorous (as you occasionally do).. or we can talk about "What was RICKY really DOING going to Niteroi all the time... I would like to know that

The problem in Brazil is not whether this is just as valuable as a culture as the European one, but that those things are portrayed as "the Brazilian culture" by the media. What kind of values are promoted in a baile funk? Promiscuity? Criminal behavior and hatred against the police? What does it teach girls? That they must be whores in order to be valued? What does it teach about beauty? That vulgarity and body fluids are "beautiful"?

None of those things are sufficient to constitute a civilization and I have nothing to do with them.

Every single day the left beats on the "European culture", saying that we are too euro-centric, while promoting this stupidity such as Funk as something "Brazilian".

If this "european" culture were gone, what would be left? We have nothing else to replace it! Should we return to the Indians' stone age society? Or maybe could we all become "funk artists" looking for new ways of making vulgar references to a vagina?

Without any religious conotation - which is not my "subject to say the least - I fully agree with you on this point!
The vulgarity of life in Brazil is embarrassing

As for the comment about "European Culture", that's the ONLY culture I acknowledge, as I have alwasy considered myself as a Western individual

While I respect the culture in other parts of the world, they are irrelevant to me

Postmillenialism was pretty well decimated as an escatological position by the First World War.

Whatever your religious persuasions, it would be wise to be well aware of this recent face of the Post Millenialists, sometimes called Chistian Re-Constructionists or Christian Dominion.

Unlike Pre-Millenialists Christians, many of whom focus on the spiritual and avoid active participation in politics and wait to zipped off of the earth, the Post Millenialists believe that Christians will dominate the world for a 1000 years before Christ comes back.

Therefore, while one group is speaking in tongues and having chicken dinners, the other group is on a quasi-religious, quasi-Machiavellioan mission to dominate the world. A large number of George Bush's inner circle are Post Millenialists. Reconstructionists. There is a whole industry to this effort, most notably a character called Gary North, the author of books like INHERIT THE EARTH - BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES ON ECONOMICS, THE SINAI STRATEGY. (I forget the exact names).

Obviously, there are some wonderful principles in the Bible. There are some wonderful principles in the Koran. But both of these religions, when they have power, have their own "jihadists" among them, particularly in America. It is a potential problem in Brazil. Evangelicals have already killed a few people because, with numbers, they felt that they were physically going to get rid of the 'misfits' in the country.

Now, to be fair, people like Brazuca, say that they are looking for a revival. Maybe so. There is always two levels to revivals...one is the inner transformation of people. The other is their increased power in numbers and THE POSSIBLITY that anybody resisting inner transformation might be 'presuaded' by other means.

In America, the battle between the power of individual STATES (States rights) and the power of the Federal government is one of the frontline battles for this movement. That's why the presidency has less value to them than placing more Post Millenialists on the Supreme Court. It's all a chess game.

"don't watch the eyes of the Scorpion...watch the poisonous tail."

Whenever I see groups of people diputing over a bunch of absolutely silly semantics I get so disappointed with mankind...
One might as well be disputing which divity should be followed: Zeus, Jupiter (the Roman equivalent) or ODIN (the nordic god of gods)

In about two or three thousand years, presuming mankind remains as one of surving intelligent species of this Galaxy, men will surey be fighting between God X, God Y or God Z (and naturally the beliver of God X will be killing, or otherwise torturing the believer ogf God Y, because "they KNOW" that GOD X in the true one, because a certain article 1.3 opus kxt says so... it's "written"
AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I must admit, I'm not familiar with that particular author?

Your English butler Jeeves will be able to answer your question.

I never cease to be amazed at how
craven little wannabes come to the
USA and try to "out bigot" the bigots,
thinking foolishly that the very people
to whom they grovel have any respect for
THEM.

I would think that this "philospher" would
do better just to bend over and kiss
the asses of his puppet masters than
to expose his pedantry in silly
articles like this.

...first, you have to seperate the testerone , alcohol, violence from the culture.quite a few popular art forms like jazz, samba, frevo, etc were surrounded by these things. jazz came from the bordellos..it is unquestionalbly the united states highest art form...many classical composers had torrid lives...the frevo dance with the umbrella used to be copoeira gangs with the machetes instead of the umbrelas (that is where it came from ) , fighting to get to the oposing frevo bands bass drum to punture it... great art comes out of the cesspool of the human experiance...

the dancing is not bad, what goes on around it can be. im not saying baile funk is the highest art form of dance in rio, passistas are, and, you probably dont like them either...it sure was discriminated against...to reach a higher form, these arts have to come from the people first...jazz and its dances were extremly repressed by church groups....guess what, various evangelacal church musics in brazil use the samba rhtyms or other afro brazilian rhythms , exkpecialy in the north east...if its good enough for them it ought to be good enough for you

i didnt say european values in art and music should be dropped i said they can co exist and mix side by side. jazz, samba, mambo are all idioms that use western harmony.

that is europes contribution...harmony...do you think europe is as sophisticaced with rhythm as sub sahara africa ? or northern indian classical music ?

pollyrhythmic drumming and dancing is the sub sahara african gift to the world..it is phenominal and dominates the americas popular musics and dances where slaves were brought. and, it mixed with european harmonies

brazil is one incredible treasure chest of living photographs of what its culture looked like as it developed...samba da roda, maracatu,coco, tambor das criolas, bumba meu boi , frevo, carvalho marino, condomble ( you have to seperate the religion from the cultural parts, this is an african cerimony tranfered to the americas by people brought over as slaves),jongo,etc ( there are thousands of rhythms and dances in brazil) are all idioms that are more than 100 years old. maracatu is 300.the information , the art, the incredible dance moves are just rich , rich treasure to discover and state a developement of the brazilian people...

comon augustus, this relates very much to the subgect of racism, slavery and the real story of brazilian culture. even villa lobos frequently reffered to the afro brazilian rhythms and melodies in his symphonies....no samba da roda, no chorinho or bossa...do you get it ? the white harmonies in the most highest of brazilian arts like bossa and chorinho, exist over the afro diasporic rhythm...it is the base..it deserves as high a respect as any ballet or symphony from europe..it is a beautiful, inspirational and moving story

and , im answering a brazilians put down of afro brazilian culture...

Regarding your comments, please note that “the hat” or “the shoe” did fit me! I suppose your "lame" entry was intended for me.
Presuming this to be the case, rest assure that I "WANNA BE" absolutely nothing more than what I am.
And YES, I did take offense! How dare you? Who do you think you actually are, to feel entittled to presume so much?

For the record, I must bring to your attention that I have not moved to the United States either “yesterday”…
As I have spent half of my life in this country and hold the same citizenship as you do, you have no right to make such “diminishing” remark... In fact, with the sole exception of a particular right, namely the "to be elected President” which I would never EVER consider, according to the US Constitution, my rights are precisely the same as yours!

As for what or who I am, considering the type of ancestry which most Americans (immigrants as well as grand sons of immigrants), I am nearly sure that my background is immensely superior, and far out ways yours!

While your ancestors, a few generations ago, were most like plowing the fields somewhere in Europe or North America, mine were living in manors, sipping tea, and attending concert halls. Regardless of what your irrelevant concept may hold about European nobility, for me it means a Great Deal! Consequently, I have to reason to aspire becoming anything else - or using your “common back alley’ expression – this “little wannabe” is NOT little and wants nothing!

Wishing you a happy existence, I bid you farewell

Wishing you a happy existence, I bid you farewell

So do our Comrade-in-Arms in this blog, Kite Flyer.

Ahhhhhh, all the "nobility" somehow ends up in
America --- how quaint.
Much of European royalty ended up waiting tables and
parking cars HERE after the two world wars ---
and they were REAL nobility --- they accepted
the fate of their class and seldom called
attention to their ancestry.

I'm always suspicious of those who are so eager
to CLAIM "nobility", yet somehow end up in the
USA.

Pretentious little twit ---- I have been in the
company of Republican Party bigwigs who laugh
at little racist "wogs" who deplore the
state of the "lower orders" in this county
("I sat there at dinner, listening to this little
silly fellow, with his affected british accent,
and wondered who in the hell does he think HE
is" said one one coupon clipping dowager).

There is ONLY one measure of "nobility" in this
country ---- MONEY. Affect all the airs of superiority
that you wish ---- you are either "to the manor born",
so rediculously rich that you can BUY your way in,
or you affect delusions of grandeur and become "noble"
or "blue blood" in you owon little silly mind.

There IS an upper class in this country, just as there
is one in EVERY society, and if you are not PART of it
then you SERVE it --- or you are crushed.

How deluded you are.

great art comes out of the cesspool of the human experiance...

It makes sense. Perhaps the left is intentionally trying to make Brazil one big cesspool! Anything related to Funk, Samba and other rhythms is a complete cesspool. I have to say, you are doing a great job!

If we are talking about civilizations here, then it is obvious that civilizations aren't composed of dancing only. Your argument fails.

Afro-tards, and I refer to the Brazilian ones because they are the ones I know best, focus so much on this BS as if everything else didn't matter. In a complete lack of the notion of cause and effect they believe the pride of this filth is actually one step necessary for "greateness". It is as if you refused to praise vulgarity and brutality of the cesspool Funk or Samba, you would somehow be denying yourself that "greateness".

Some people do believe that great nations are great because they beat their chest louder in "pride" of whatever they have.

Un-f**king-believable! Let's start swearing, and therefore transforming brazzil.com into a cesspool! Maybe then art will flow from these pages! Hahahahahaha

We need less chest-bumping, we need real achievements. Getting drunk and dancing aren't the way to go. Success is a consequence of our actions, not the product of irrational beliefs!

You are part of the problem. All that "culture" should be treated for what it is, a cesspool.

It's chestthumping... otherwise the sentence doesn't make much sense.

Dear Sir (or Madam for all I know)
Please rest assured, again, that I have neither served any table nor have been employed in any such subservient role! Furthermore, please be informed that I have not come to this country in search or Money (and certainly NOT for a better life)! Although I'm not wealthy, acquiring financial advancement has never been a role, wish or particular desire… Somehow, I never had to worry about it… go figure! Although I do have a profession, as I must unfortunately “earn” money, if you were relatively more acquainted with European History, particularly regarding the aristocracy, you would have known that, until about a century ago the Aristocracy would frown upon those who have “merchant connections”… Go figure (again)! So much for your “so-called” upper classes with the background of a miner!
Unfortunately (perhaps fortunately), I do not live in the same style of my ancestors, and consider "pulling pedigree" only when deeply offended by presumptions, insubordinate remarks, particularly if such undue attacks on my honor emanate from unexpected, unwarranted quarters... Indeed, you had no reason for attempting to diminish my integrity for no good reason!

The only reason I came to this country was for the same of living in Manhattan, for during my youth it was important to be at the center of world (considering the time period where I existed).

If I were born 2000 years ago, Rome would have been my destination; 200 years go London, unquestionably... As such, my decisions for immigration (as a young man) were solely based upon the immature desire to live in the limelight - pure and simple… (And, you know what? In the lime light I LIVED! With fabulous memories to serve me a life time…)

As for my political inclinations, I have a big surprise for you. I would never EVER vote for a party where religious maniacs and social intolerants predominate! Despite my center-right tendencies in economic matters and absolute right in international affairs, my social liberalism is quite extreme... Therefore, you would never have found me in a Republican convention of dinner party, for I loathe them with passion!

A Brazilian = chester (with a small c and pronounced with the j sound).

Esteemed "Dot" Friends
Please accept my deep gratitude...

you have no idea what the reality of the classical composers was if you think they didnt come from the cesspool...

why are you so uptight about dance ?..i mean, you got one big hangup about it...you are one wound up individual about some really nice and wonderful dance movements...

i dont agree on your points at all on this subgect...yeah, people should be proud of their culture !! and afro brazilians have a lot to be proud of !!!

its no surprise,and, i am extremly confident in my perception of the value of afro brazilian culture . i dont and never did let people like you shape my tastes or form my opinions.your artistic vision would be way too limited and uptight for me.

me the problem ? you are your own problem...and, you sure arnt the solution...

actualy, i am very lucky and fortunate to have various afro brazilian artists and dancers as aquaintances...i am honored , humbled and inspired knowing them . they have given me great artistic sustanance that i am in life debt for....and i can say the same for the white brazilian artists i have been fortunate to be aquainted with also .

i am a very lucky person to have received the artistic musical and dance experiances i have had in brazil

I have been in the
company of Republican Party bigwigs who laugh
at little racist "wogs" who deplore the
state of the "lower orders" in this county
("I sat there at dinner, listening to this little
silly fellow, with his affected british accent,
and wondered who in the hell does he think HE
is" said one one coupon clipping dowager).

I am really impressed that you were hobnobbing with the Republican party members, dining with them. Did they serve Good coffee in a Styrofoam cup?

Explain who are the Wogs?

Who was that "Silly Fellow", old chap? Was it a Wog from Egypt?

You have nothing to say and now do us all a favor,by getting off this blog. In case you still persist, we have no alternative other than bringing reinforcements from Central Europe. You do need a kick on your rear end.

Good bye and God bless ya.

End of Message.

The author of this article is really dumb. It is unfortunate that despite the fact that you live in the Greatest nation on earth, you have been unable to avail yourself of the great educational opportunities that she provides. I am truly sorry for you and hope that you get your comeuppance someday.

i dont agree on your points at all on this subgect...yeah, people should be proud of their culture !! and afro brazilians have a lot to be proud of !!!

Pride is indulgent to anything that pleases it. Promoting "pride" is promoting fantasies and pretending they are true. As usual some relativists believe the reality is a democracy, and the average of all opinions will say what it is. No, it is not.

Tell me, how many scientific papers, successful enterprises or technological advancements did those afro-tards do? They have the wrong priorities, and they are instigated in the wrong direction by those pretending to help them.

This has no future. There's no possible favorable outcome.

me the problem ? you are your own problem...and, you sure arnt the solution...

Well, I am not one producing Funk music and promoting promiscuity... Oh, maybe I am the problem for marxists. Yes, I am the "elite", working hard in order to pay my taxes while others are funded by the government to dance. Maybe I AM the problem, because I am not quiet and subservient about it!

Yes, I got it.

actualy, i am very lucky and fortunate to have various afro brazilian artists and dancers as aquaintances...i am honored , humbled and inspired knowing them .

Like who? I think you have been fooled. You were presented cesspool pretending to be Brazilian.

the author is a brilliant writer...as a american,,i can say that such writings are refreshing ,,especially coming from a south american (brazilian national),,that said ,,you are an idiot who would never be taken seriously in sane circles...you sophmoric fool..

barack obama has as much of a chance at getting elected president ,as a illegal alien getting amnestied in the u.s.a.,,it just ain,t gonna happen......obama will be defeated ,,and the illegals will be heading home to their countries......

I've already read LONG harangues by Brazuca on other forums and have no interest in reading more voluminous cut-and-pastes of scriptures and right wing rantings. His so-called 'philosophies' is remaniscent of the pre-Socratic philosophers - The Speculators whose musings were often devoid of any connection with reality.

It is almost a crime for any idiot to compare Haiti with Bahama. Particularly considering that the same cultural arrogance and thinly veiled racism reflected on this forum were used by the United States and France to stunt Haiti's development. Bahama developed as a colonial possession of Great Britain, nourished by the economy of their colonial master. After kicking out the French, Haiti faced a blockade by the United States who held any Haitian for ransom, considering their actual persons 'stolen property' of France. France had just helped the United States win their revolution against Britain and this one of their favors to France. For nearly half a century, Haiti's development was hampered by these two racist countries. France eventually bankrupted Haiti by demanding a payment of nearly 15 million dollars. Despite this, Haiti still managed to restore their economy, making it one of the top in latin america. Unfortunately, after the Spanish American war, the desire for the United States for a great "empire" led them to betray the Cubans, the Phillippines, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic and to invade Haiti, in 1915. The United States brutally dominated Haiti for the next two or three decades, only leaving after being shamed by the League of Nations, before the second World War. They left behind a brutal U.S. backed dictator, supported by a murderous U.S. trained army called the Ton Ton Macoutes. From then until now, Haitian development has been at the mercy of the United States.

Any idiot could know that. Brazuca's wide-eyed fascination with his own nonsense and his zeal to make square pegs fit into round holes blinds him in his effort to label the strong family values and industrous community of Haitians as "pagans" while gushing over the so-called success of these same "pagans" in Japan.

More aping of Christian Dominion nut cases like Gary North who are determined to create a world "white" and "right" are synonymous there is no rights held by Third World Peoples that a "good righteous Christian knight" needs to respect.

Let us remember that Allende was democratically elected in a free and fair election. And, as far as I know, the United States believes in the changing of power by democratic means. That comes back to the gist of this article. Like A BRAZILIAN the writer of this sophomoric crap can't accept the fact that their 'socialist' president was elected by those very same Baile Funk dancers in the favelas. Therefore, they must have been "psychologially" influenced...bamboozled by this working class 'fraud'...unlike the great European ass-kissing YTs who sip Johnny Walker Red in their beach side condominiums and nod off at Opera events, while twitching their booties (when no one is looking) to the echoes of samba emanating from the favelas.

you know , im not going to tell you the recognisable names , because you will put them down..

but, id be happy to relate the experiance of meeting groups of the afro brazilian culture , coco...

coco is in various places in the northeast, alagoas, pernambuco,etc.it is a very close relative to the samba de roda of bahia , as a mater of fact , certain samba de roda and coco steps are specifialy made to stomp on the mud to make mud bricks to build houses...and, its done in a group comunity type way.

i found this out after being enchanted by seeing chico science on tv and buying his work, then, ending up in pernambuco, which is an incredible world onto itself. it has its own insular culture that is unique to itself, like frevo, and, maracatu that is differant from other states versions of maracatu.

and, they had coco influenced music and mentioned selma de coco and other artists.

i started hearing these wonderful coco records, it is something that hasnt gotten any recognition in the mainstream media . but, it has incredible referances to calypso lilting call responce melodies or , incredible similarities to blues shouts with call and responce.

coco is the older parent to idioms like forro and baio. it goes way back and certainly has roots in slave times .and the dances are incredible, another cousin to samba. they have a coco group coco raiz do arcoverde...i went to arcoverde to see them, they were incredible. the dancers wore hard sandals and they danced very hard and fast with these sandals . it was almost like tap, as a matter of fact , it hauntingly reminded me of some old black and white film of the nicholas brothers with dorthy dandridge in the middle...just an awesome realization since these idioms are not influenced of each other. they grew parallely...

and i met other groups like aurinha de coco,and, galo preto. these people are incredible and i am humbled to know them. they gave me insights to how the americas developed musicly and dance wise, in things like samba and tap and blues from the states and calypso in the caribean....all from seeing these coco groups in pernambuco....that is heavy s**t if you think about it....just like the maracatu celibration i saw after silencio das tambores, at another church in recife...it was a santuary for run away slaves from the past, and seeing this maracatu group dressed in european court clothes of the colony times, just made my hair stand up on the back of my head, and, my inner bones feel strange tingles...that is some heavy s**t also...i mean really heavy.....high art ? oh hell yeah !!

It's always wonderful to read A BRAZILIAN's nonsense. Give these idiots two shoelaces and they'll hang themselves. (Sorry Augustus...I'm NO gentleman).

His comparisons are illogical, albeit typical of self-defined elitists trying to hold onto their vaporous definition of their grandeur. He chooses to compare a poor, youth sub-culture in a favela to the "good, genteel, middle-class adult, decent(?) folks", with their adherence to their 'superior' European culture. But, wait! The mammies and pappies of these genteel folks, while they were still in Europe, could't find a pot to piss in. What happened? They had to come to Brazil to find out how to act like Europeans? You guys are funny and trip over yourselves, in your not-too-thinly-veiled bigotry. While A BRAZILIAN gushes over the glory of European Culture, COSTINHA, in a post above, ridicules these same Europeans who he says "cam crawling and begging to the shores of Brazil."

Look, you have to compare apples with apples, and oranges with oranges. It wasn't that long that European ethnic groups were ridiculed because of their raucus music and dancing, and drinking and drunkardess and animal like sex, producing houses filled with snotty nose children. The Irish. The Germans. The Italians. The Polish.

It wasn't their European culture that brought them out of the situation. It was an industrial society, that could absorb any strong back. It was a macro economy that they didn't have anything to do with. It was governmental policy that decided to use strong 'white' backs and not strong 'black' backs. It was an evolving collusion of politics and race where whites pitted themselves against each other and politicians ensured power by supporting unions that included one ethnic group and excluded another. Hard working? Of course they were. That's not European culture. That's the myth that low self-esteem whites want to perpetuate and rationalize the injustice of systems today where macro economic decisions are not made to create the same type climates that aided their mammies and pappies. If there was no need for these macro economic climates, then why didn't they prosper where they were. Where fascist and elitist Europoean governments and societies had excluded them and reduced them to lives as sharecroppers and serfs.

If you truly compared poverty with poverty and youth with youth, then, in many cases, the echoes in the favelas of Brazil are much more preferable to the grimy misery in Liverpool, or the miserable Germans in their small apartments in Duisburg, or the depressed French in the broken down suburbs of Paris, or those sad-assed blonde haired and blue-eyed kids, begging for money in Alexanderplatz in Berlin, while getting wasted by sniffing glue and getting their minds blasted to bits by that techno music.

European culture!

Why the hell do you think that so many of these working class slobs come to your country and prefer the favela of Rocinho to the 'mighty' Europe? Are you more European than them?

Your entry contains very interesting historical details (the part about Haiti) which despite my interest for History had escaped my attention. Thus I must thank you for the valuable instruction. It also reminded your “audience” of yet another aspect of the underlying issue at the bottom of the entire discussion about racism in the Americas: colonialism and “neo-colonialism” (the former’s version in the earlier quarter of the 20th century).

Furthermore, I am particularly intrigued with what appears to be one of your favorite (and effective) expressions: "making square pegs fit into round holes one's point". Yet, bear in mind that the equivalent could easily be expressed by your opponent, because, anyone in diametrically opposing position might use the same argument against you. When debating an issue about which both sides are particularly passionate, the likelihood of any consensus (let alone the actual convincing the other side) is rather minute. In this connection, such scenario is not unlike my earlier exchange with "A Brazilian" whereby I concluded the futility of “attempting to describe colors to a blind individual”...
Neither extreme may, realistically, aspire to “win”…
Cheers

As much as our views appear to be converging in some key issues, I conjecture whether you might indulge me by providing further clarifications on your entry ‘’ THE EMERGING ORDER - POST- MILLENIALISTS – I would greatly appreciate. As much as I will look forward to such reply, I must admit having great expectations for what you may inform, as I’m hoping that your explanation will clarify what I anticipate, namely, that “ it would simply represent some “humorous allegory “ around this incomprehensible amalgamation of radical beliefs, each opposing one anther… The concealed crimes committed by radical sects is a symptom to observe and monitor closely, for fear of: blood baths… who does what awful “things” the inflict on one another.
So, time permitting some “elaborated explanation on how you view this serious explanation would be welcome and appreciated…
Should you inform me that you actually represent , and advocate to one of such groups, I must express my disappointed before hand… but I will not jump to conclusions… I shall simply await your next move, but will presume to hope you might consider indulging me 

Finalizing this entry: is it my impression or have we indeed undergone an upsurge in new “faces/names” popping up to challenge some of us “regulars? I have suddenly two of these newbie’s “in toe” and they seem be very aggressive and anti foreigners while lacking instruction in reality and history – I’m referring to Frequent Flyer and US Observer… Let me know what you think of this issue.
Cheers

To Adrien Erik, I'll just reiterate what I said before, and will reply more fully when I have more time.

You, Adrian Erik, being a relativist, have no basis for making evaluations as to what is better or worse, since, given your worldview, such pronouncements are inevitably arbitrary and subjective. Without an objective standard to apply, all you're offering is flatulent sound and fury signifying nothing.

As to AUGUSTUS, oh dear. I feel sorry for him, as I can severely embarrass him. His position is so weak that I shudder to think how he would react to falling from so high an exalted place as that on which he has placed himself. If he notices, while Adrian Erik is an unhesitating bull dog in attacking my position, he will simply not dare contend with me on the philosophical level. This is why I've returned to the basic issue that he, as a relative, is in no position to make value judgements as to what course in life man takes is "better" or "worse", since in a roomful of arbitrary, subjective opinions, which one's the right one? Adrian Erik (and AUGUSTUS) are simply unable to answer that question. I'll ask it again, this time in bold for emphasis: In a roomful of arbitrary, subjective opinions (i.e., the opinions of Adrian Erik, AUGUSTUS, et al.), which one's the right one?

This time, in bold AND caps -- for extra emphasis, you see:

IN A ROOMFUL OF ARBITRARY, SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS (SUCH AS THOSE OF ADRIAN ERIK AND AUGUSTUS), WHICH ONE IS THE RIGHT ONE?

To A Brazilian -- you're a paragon of pristine reason and rationality. Beautiful to watch your deft application of the faculty of the mind.

If you feel so inclined as to “embarrass me”, there will be no efforts on my part to attempt to stop you. However, if you are going to utilize, as part of arguments, quotations from a document – such as you so “called scriptures” - which I do not ACKNOWLEDGE and never EVER will as valid, your intended view will go unheard… I am not the one who is going to attempt to stop you. You might as well use quotations from goddess Athena from the Oracle, or locate some document quoting some laws from God Locke, Thor, or Odin, it would be the SAME thing to me, sheer mythology… I’m sorry, for coming to such an extreme, but as a measure to my extreme position (to which my conviction is likely to be as extreme as yours), the only reason I tolerate religion, ANY one, is due to my even stronger views that everyone should be free to pursue any course of action, provided it does not interfere with that of the others… If I were not so strong a advocate for freedom, private property, and Social rank (yes, I’m referring to aristocracy), I would have been a supporter of the unjust but logical former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which had the wisdom to embrace the enlightened position of Atheism, and imposed it on everyone, restricting the humiliating subjugation of millions towards the shackles of servitude to divinities which, in the end, mere promote division, hatred between groups, and inevitable conflict.
As such, if you want to ask loud and clear WHO IS RIGHT? I will tell you just as clearly:
REASON, HUMANISM, RULE OF LAW, ATHEISM, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, of course SCIENCE (which includes the brilliance of CHARLES DARWIN – in his fantastic work about the evolution of species, of modern PHYSISTS, currently working on the magnificent theory of MULTIVERSE – based on the STRING THEORY where by there exists 11 dimensions triggering the existence of an infinite MEMBRANES – the M-Theory – each constituting a PARALEL UNIVERSE). If you think this is absurd, and/or far-fetch, well, nothing is more absurd than believing that a maniac Jew (who used to be an Egyptian Prince, imagine!) led a bunch of miserable slaves across a desert to command the waters of the red sea to open up so that they could escape – ABSURD anyone could believe in that – equally absurd and a wretched wife of a carpenter will receive the visit of an angel to announce she will, as a virgin, give birth to the son of god… RIGHT!

I do not expect, the convince that these absurd (nearly idiotic) principles to which you advocate should be dismissed, in the same way that you will NEVER EVER EVER EVER convince me that SCIENCIFIC ABSOLUTE TRUTH, LOGIC, and HUMANISM along with RULE OF LAWS (MANKIND LAWS – not a bunch of idiotic tenets some clown claims to get from a divine entity is some silly obscure mountain in the Sinai Peninsula)

This is my answer

Well, if it works for you, Gussie, fine. But a lotta guys would disagree.

When I made the statement about Postmillenianism, I never even thought about Rushdoony and North. Their position is different from historical Postmil in more ways than it is alike.

But we sure had fun during the countdown to the Y2K.

1. Are there laws on the books against racial discrimination (which is how racism is manifested)?

2. Were these laws enacted in order to right wrongs and correct problems(as opposed to having been enacted just to maintain the appearance of political correctness and avoid future discrimination)?

3. Have individuals or corporations (or partnerships or 501c3s or whatever) been indicted as having violated such laws?

4. Has anyone been incarcerated, fined, or put on probation after having been found guilty of such crimes?

If all of the above are in the affirmative, the locality in question has a problem with racism. In short, has racist elements within the population.

If a citizen of said locality denies that such a place is racist, said citizen is in effect denigrating his own legislature and his own judiciary.

Republicans at the county fair in Snohomish, a town I know quite well, passed out $3 bills panning the Democrats, Obama in Arab headdress, a camel, etc., and an indignant Democrat woman called it a "hate crime", complained, it hit the newswires.

Big mistake on her part.

Slick.com, who markets the item at 25 for five bucks, is totally immersed in hits right now, everybody wants their own pad of three dollar bills.

Think about the ramifications before you go shooting your mouth off. For slick.com, the complaint was a gift from heaven.

Unless you don´t believe in Heaven, in which case it was either a fortunate random happening or an ill wind that helped slick.com or...other.

@ric - That's funny. Actually there were some serious problems and some of the Christian "Pre Millenialists" were using the doomsday predictions of computer theory as the signal for the Rapture and coming of Jesus.

@augustus - this is a bit tangential but here goes.

In Christianity, there is the belief that Jesus will return to earth. This is called the Second Coming. The steps are 1) all Christians will be "raptured" -- taken off of the earth. 2) The anti-christ will appear and dominate the earth 3) there will be the war of Armageddon, led by a billion man army from the East 4) Jesus will return, defeat the anti-christ 5) Christians will reign on the earth for a thousand years of peace.

"Post Millenial" refers to the sequence of numbers 1-4 and number 5.

POST ("after") thinkers feel that 1 thru 4( the rapture, anti-christ, Christ return, armageddon, etc) occurs AFTER the 1000 year (millenium) reign of Christians.

PRE MILLENIAL thinkers feel that before the horrors of the anti-christ, Christians will disappear from the earth, therefore they don't have to worry about how society is deteriorating. When society collapses, Jesus will take them into the sky.

You can see obviously see how this affects the behaviour of each of these adherents.

For example, I am African American. Most of the current evangelical movement among African Americans do not prepare for the long term. They focus on personal morality, seclusion from the world and a general waiting for Jesus to whoosh them off of the earth to take them off of this miserable world.

When I engage many African American evangelicals in conversation about society, they listen, shake their head, say that folks need to get "saved" because Jesus is coming soon to take care of this mess.

If I engage Post Millenialist thinkers on the same topic, their eyes light up and they say, we need to build universitities and create Christian scientists and teachers and lawyers to take over this society and turn it around. We need to organize political groups and influence the electoral politics (Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority and Rex Reeds' CHRISTIAN COALITION).

THE EMERGING ORDER - GOD IN THE AGE OF SCARCITY (by Jeremy Rifkin) is a book, written about 15 years ago, about the impact of the new evangelical movement on society in hard economic times. It suggests that two different possibilities for the movement. 1) That Christians will follow a section of the Bible that says "be stewards of the earth" and develop a form of manageable capitalism rather than laissez faire capitalism marked by environmental concerns or 2) The command to "dominate the earth" will usher in a new, virulent wave of fascism, which, in my opinion, is represented by authors like Gary North who is one of the primary thinkers of CHRISTIAN DOMINION thinking.

Okay, more than you wanted hear, huh?

If I engage Post Millenialist thinkers on the same topic, their eyes light up and they say, we need to build universitities and create Christian scientists and teachers and lawyers to take over this society and turn it around. We need to organize political groups and influence the electoral politics

The marxists did it before, so why the surprise? You don't want to competition? Take look at Brazil, it was taken over by them. Look at the sorry state of our universities, the vast majority there is marxist. Look at our political parties, they are either communist or center-left.

This is a cultural war. Are you angry that those "evil Christians" won't behave like sheep? At least the US has cultural warriors.

Look, you have to compare apples with apples, and oranges with oranges. It wasn't that long that European ethnic groups were ridiculed because of their raucus music and dancing, and drinking and drunkardess and animal like sex, producing houses filled with snotty nose children.

And can't you do better? I mean, so what? Should we all life of raucus music and dancing, drinking and drunkardness and animal like sex? This doesn't make any sense.

Values are important not because someone brought it from Europe, but because the consequences of it are more in accordance with nature and progress.

In a roomful of arbitrary, subjective opinions (such as yours), which one's the right one?

That fundamental philosophical question about how man ought to live -- this is what concerns you. And it concerns me. It concerns a whole host of people here. How ought we to live? How ought Brazilians to live -- these people and this country that has inspired such interest that this website is probably the only one of its type, with such traffic, dedicated to "trying to understand Brazil". (Is there a "trying to understand Slovenia" site in the US? LOL)

So, the moral imperatives you pronounce do not derive their authority from a transcendent source, making them objective. They merely stem from your mouth. They are simply given on the authority of your mere say-so. Why? Because you're an engineer? Wow, I'm impressed. Because you're a -- wait for it -- "black", or "African-American", engineer? Well, that may impress the rest of the American population, who don't seem to expect much from y'all. But it doesn't impress me. Just because you're an engineer doesn't give you the authority to pronounce yea or nay regarding what ought to be done and, more generally, how man ought to live. You have your feet firmly planted in mid-air. You're a fool, on your own little Bahian stage, foll of sound and fury, signifying nothing. But you don't know it. You think the more sound you make, the more you fulminate with unwavering certitude -- the more right you are. But behind your theatrics, you make no sense whatsoever. You're an annoying, irrational person. I know, I know. You're "on the ground". You're "getting your hands dirty". That makes you right -- of course, I know. But on the ground doing what? Getting your hands dirty doing what? Tilting and windmills?

Is there teleology in history? If not, then what is it all for? A fool. On a silly little stage in Bahia. Fool -- yes, absolutely full -- of sound and fury. Signifying nothing. Nothing.

Answer the question! (Or get lost)

In a roomful of arbitrary, subjective opinions (such as yours), which one's the right one?

Shape up or ship out, buddy. You've made enough of a nuisance of yourself. Move along, now, and stop bothering us. Go on!

After reading the descriptions which Adrian was kind to clarify, on top of a Challenge from others for me to speak out what I consider to be truth, I must say that, by just reading about further and deeper levels of men’s proclivity for idiotic behavior is to sad, irritating, and humiliating, for I cannot believe that I share the same species with so despicable a group of creatures…

Humankind is just barely superior to sheep! Stupid animals will to herd around about any alleged voice of "wisdom" proclaiming to “speak the truth about their so-called creator” – LOL. What amazes me the most is the intensity of their convictions! Indeed, despite the existence of equally convicted individuals worshiping a different god or version thereof, they will fight to the end convinced that “their good is the one and true one” – LOL. It never ceases to amaze me the capacity of human beings to be so naive, and, quite frankly idiotic! It's like having some automaton worshiping a “Blue Ribbon”, disputing another which worships a holy “Red Ribbon”, when members of each sect is inquired about the underlying basis of their convictions, any of them would most likly reply (with the voice trembling and arms raised while the eyes would be probably closed) "ohhhh it's written! As per Verse 22kkuu paragraph F75' whereas the other groups also very likely would also be certain that the proof her his/her convictions is equally “written”, but would then quote a different paragraph of the same book (or a shorter OR longer version thereof - SO STUPID! I can’t stop myself from saying it…) and they keep on fighting each other indefinitely... Until such time, of course, and yet a third completely distinct group whose members do NOT worship ribbons --- nooooo they are too wise to believe in silly ribbons, whoever heard of such a thing? They believe, NATURALLY, in the only and one “god” – “the holy Yellow Banana” – LOL). The problem here is that, depending on the level of obsession of the Banana worshipers, they would be likely to have a mission to destroy all those who “refuse to see the truth” (as they waive their swords around) - those who do not believe in he yellow banana should be exterminated... And then all the idiotic BLUE and moronic RED ribbon worshipers would be massacred by the EQUALLY idiotic and moronic but extreme obsessive Yellow Banana followers…

The extent of the stupidity is so immense that I'm ashamed of belonging to the same species of creatures who are so ignoble as to subject themselves to rules established by so indescribably, incredibly demented fables! Worse yet, that the divisions between to branches of “Moronic Gates of Holy Stupidity” may cause so much suffering, war and endless conflict thereby rendering life intolerable for and shameful for the entire human species...

As for that equally idiotic (perhaps more so) end of days predictions, I will solely state that there has been several cataclysmic events which has affected the Planet Earth during its 4.6 billion years of existence! Indeed, our planet has been affected by “end of days” type NATURAL phenomena many times in the past, and most of them took place hundreds and/or tens of millions of years prior to our evolution! The only popular widespread destruction which is currently popular, and which some few enlightened individuals believe - about 65 millions years ago, when with the Meteor / Meteorite which hit the Yucatan peninsula and destroyed most reptiles represents ONLY the latest such event, which permitting the mammals to proceed into the evolutionary course, which led to apes, and then eventually to us – humans…

Much earlier, about 200 million years ago, there was the "Great Dying" during which 95% the existing life on Earth was wipe out... their death led to the specialization of an ancient species which a common ancestor of mammals and reptiles... Had this earlier "great dying" not occurred, neither the early mammals (our ancestors) nor the reptiles would have existed... and these are just two examples of the many other cataclysmic events which hit the Earth, and will INEVITABLY HIT AGAIN, but because "it's written" by some moronic profit in some idiotic book... I just cannot stand it anymore...

The extent and level of the absurdity currently considered as “the truth” along with the existence of so many sheep-like humans willing to believe in them are outright disgusting! THAT is the reason I was trying to avoid pouring out my heart and thoughts on this matter with abandonment without consideration of any type of restriction… Perhaps those who have challenged me to speak out the truth are now satisfied with the final product of their request. Now it’s done!

[Since the Engineer has offered his critique of postmillenialism (or rather simply summarised his understanding of it, not refuting it) I shall reproduce a blog post, a book review, I made last year which expresses this eschatology of victory]

“All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth; go therefore and make disciples of all nations … teaching them to observe all that I commanded you” (Matt 28:18-20). It is quite largely upon this verse that Dennis Peac**ke, in his book Winning the Battle for the Minds of Men, seeks to realign the thinking of Christians as to what Christ’s victory at Calvary signified and what it requires of them. Peac**ke issues a rallying cry, summoning Christians to their responsibilities to be salt and light to their culture and rousing them from the slumber which has kept them from fully carrying out the Great Commission.

Peac**ke begins by correcting the misconception common to all too many Christians that has emasculated them. He explains: “The nations are in misery and Christian civilization is perishing more because of false doctrine in the Church than because of universal sin or Satan’s power.” The Devil has managed to deceive Christians into hiding their light under a bushel of “nearly exclusive concern with internal church life (privatization)”, says Peac**ke. Thus, secular humanism has rushed to fill the vacuum and occupy the land abandoned by Christians. The solution, says Peac**ke, is that “the Church must reinvolve itself in impacting the whole world socially, politically, and culturally for Christ.”

Alerting Christians to the deception they have been under, and explaining how they are actually commanded by God to “[o]ccupy till I come”, Peac**ke details the ways in which the world system has conspired to keep the world unsalted by Christian influence and so left it to rot. Lies have been spread in order to insure control of the world by non-Christians, when in fact this world belongs to Christians, who are meant to rule it as “joint-heirs with Christ” (Rom 8:17).

One of the most significant areas in which this deception has taken hold is in the political arena. Secular humanists have been successful in keeping Christians away from the public sphere on the basis of a purported separation of church and state, when this in fact only refers to an institutional separation of church and state, not a separation of Christian and state. Adding to this lie is the one that suggests you cannot legislate morality. But legislation is by definition based on a standard of morality, which stems from a particular religious worldview. As Peac**ke explains: “Laws tell men how they will be permitted to live in public (and all too often in private). Laws tell a society what is good and what is bad. This is inescapably a religious function.” Explaining the ultimate motivation for secular humanists spreading such lies, Peac**ke says: “[They] want us out of the political arena because they want to live lawlessly (apart from God’s laws).”

But “[t]he earth is the LORD’S, and the fullness thereof; the world, and they that dwell in it” (Psalm 24:1). The Church is victorious, having had this victory secured at Calvary, for as Jesus said: “I will build My Church; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt 16:1. And as Isaiah confirms: “There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace on the throne of David and over his kingdom; to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of Hosts will accomplish this” (Isaiah 9:7). The only question left, which God asks, is, “Who will stand up for me against evildoers? Who will take his stand for me against those who do wickedness?” (Psalm 94:16). Dennis Peac**ke’s book seeks out individuals who are ready to answer this call, showing them how they can find their place of service in the battle.

There is Amillenialmism, sort of like eschatological agnosticism.

Panmillenianism, everything will pan out all right in the end. Joke.

Some of you guys are really good at calling other people "dumb", "stupid", "moron", "idiot".

The great thing about this conversation is that what any of us believe on things future has absolutely no effect on what in fact will come to pass. The fact that you strongly believe a certain way has zero effect on the actual outcome. God is not running a focus group. If you believe in randomness or are an atheist, less effect yet.

Sorry...
A Donald Duck comic has more value that so- called holy books
Their absurd contents are so irrelevant, that I cannot emphasize enought the issue! Why do you think I tried REALLY TRIED early to bring to your attention some differences are IRRECONCILABLE...
Quoting irrelevant, pointless, material, is equivalent of quoting fables to me... It has NO MEANING WHATSOVER!

Thanks

RIC - "Some guys are just SICK AND FREAKING TIRED of nonsensical subjects... I was COMPELLLED to turn to remarks which are considered offensive! I would rather, IF FORCED BY GUN POINT, BELIEVE IN GODESS VENUS AND GOD ADONIS, FOR AT LEAST I COULD RELATE TO AND ADMIRE THEIR BEAUTY... Since one cannot talk about something serious, let's then discuss Snow White or Sleeping Beauty... At least the stories are beautiful, interesting and have style!

Just try not to hyperventilate.

Gotta little book here, Rastus Agustus (sic) Explains Evolution, by B.H. Shadduck, Ph.D, Homo Publishing Co., Astabula Harbor, Ohio, no date, you need this booklet, its Amos and Andy style most unbecoming and outdated but funnier than a rubber crutch as to the logic of the Evolutionary Theory.

If you can weave through the offensive pre-PC dialetic, needs to be re-written and cleaned up.

dialect, that should read.

Even if Darwin's theory were proven THIS or THAT
Nothing is more illogical than believing in WISHING a planet in 7 days and making creatures out of the backbone of others...
Do you guys REALLY belive in this ridiculous non-sense???
When I was six years old, by my self I deducted there was no Santa - my family surprised, just confirmed a logical conclusion...

It does not matter, what you may through at me... the absurdity of Christian, Jewish, Bhudist, moslem, you name it...the are F-A-B-L-E-S

To believe in ALEGORICAL sily stories and have the nerve of disputing empirical scientific evidence... the nerve indeed!
Prove yours then... with what? your FAIRY tale book, dear boy - IS NO PROOF OF ANYTHING... some primitive retards wrote it and passed along... Just go on believing it... ask me if I care?

Brazuca...kiddo...that's what I've been trying to avoid. These long harangues...these long listings of scriptures which, ultimately, in your mind, qualify as debate. To be followed by entire sections from right wing writers.

And then...we'll have to talk of relativity...and you, of course, will confuse moral relativity with cultural relativity and tie your poor li'l self up in knots ('cause that will mess up your cultural Prime Operative)

Remember...we've been through this. I had forgotten about them because, truthfully, I don't think about you.

It was you who seemed to to be unable to forget li'l ole me. (How I wish you were female. Ahhh...to have a beautiful woman obsess over me in this way.)

@A BRAZILIAN - As usual, you miss the point...again.

If you are looking for values that are in accordance with nature, then you should follow the ways of the Apache Indians (make decisions based upon how they will affect the next seven generations), or culture of the Hopi Indians in New Mexico or the Dogon in West Africa.

But you mean more than that, don't you? If you just want to compare how "nature friendly" European culture(S) are with respect to other societies, you are in for a debate. That disease ridden continent where slop was thrown onto the streets and Queen Victoria was considered pure because she bathed ONCE a month, almost destroyed the world withs its immensity of infections. Nature? Puh-leeeze! (okay...gotta be fair, close urban centers contributed to this more so than culture).

You do just mean, "progress", don't you? More things! More stuff! Health! Science! But wait a minute, European mathematics was hilarity before the concept of "zero" was brought into Europe through Spain where it was introduced by the North Africans. ARABIC Numerals were far superior to that I, II, III, V Roman crap. Without a "zero" Europe stayed 'dark'. And you can't agree with Brazuca, because it was precisely a reaction AGAINST the non-analytical thinking of the Church that freed men's minds.

Hmmm...so mabye...European culture means...Hey...how are they doing things over there in Asia and Africa. Baths? Every day? Hmmmm....

Just half-kidding. Only HALF! No one can deny Europe's contribution to humanity. (well...some can deny it). Much respect to Europe for their positives. Chew their meat and don't choke on their bones.

There ARE bones.

I have no problems with the political organizing of Christians and particularly not against the schools and universities. As a matter of fact, I wish that African American churches would take a hint from some of thes initiatives and return to their activism of the past (when we created 55 universities and aided in the development of businesses, etc). Jeremy Rifkin's book tried to present an objective view of the various thrusts of the neo-evangelical movement. They have a right to have their voices represented in government. But their advocacy has to be for THEM AND THEIRS, not ME AND MINE. Or they're going to get a fight. The United States exist because the Amish and Anabaptists and Puritans and Methodists and remnants of the Hugonauts and other Congregationalists came out of a brutal Europe dominated by quasi-theocratic states. It's a shame that they hope to duplicate the same tyranny.

By the way, the best way to hold onto your girlfriend is not to look so ugly and not try to beat up the other guy.
That's a riddle. Has to do with socialism and capitalism. Olavo, the 'greatest philosopher' should understand that.

tchau

If you are looking for values that are in accordance with nature, then you should follow the ways of the Apache Indians (make decisions based upon how they will affect the next seven generations), or culture of the Hopi Indians in New Mexico or the Dogon in West Africa.

And I thought what I said was obvious. But for someone that consider humans as just another kind of animal, as if we had the same purpose as a dog, "nature" means only body fluids and the satiation of the most primitive instincts.

Obviously what I meant was the search for knowledge in a manner that is rational and logical. This is in accordance to nature, because we are spiritual beings.

Your comment about the culture in Europe was good, and it further shows that I am right. Obviously Europeans superseded their teachers! Look around you, what is arabia today in terms of culture? And I mean real culture, not sitcoms.

"Real culture"? ALL cultures are real, kiddo!

And if there's any nastiness to European culture, it's that beastly arrogance that considered other civilizations irrelevant and killed 6 out every 7 American Indians, that decimated the peoples of South America, that tied Arabs to the mouths of cannons and blew them to bits, that chopped off the hands of Africans and wore them around their necks, that raped children of eleven and twelve for sport, and then slaughtered their mothers and fathers and whose so-called science acumen was based upon the research and building of war machines (the roots of Gailileo) to support a culture of war and genocide upon genocide and slaughter upon slaughter between themselves that lasted hundreds of years; turning harmless Chinese firecrackers into missiles of destruction and a reglion of peace into an excuse for genocide.

If this is 'real culture' - still twisting your bigoted heart into knots...if 'progress' is defined by the slaughter of tens of millions "un-real" humans for the privilege of one million, just so that garish 'cultured' a*****es can sip wine and wear pearls around their necks and ugly platform shoes and stare blankly at paintings and listen to music that their empty lives and vacuous materialistic living has not not contributed one note to in 500 years...if this is your 'progress'...then keep it...puh-leeze!

No! Thank you very much.

There were many paths that human beings could have followed. Please don't insist that genocide and near "world-i-cide" were God's great plan.

If a blockade had been placed around Europe, just before the Crusades, cutting off all contact with human beings, you would have eliminated yourselves by now...and the rest of the world would hardly have noticed.

Maybe we could have done something to rescue Mozart...he would have spent his time with Carlinhos Brown in Bahia anyway, rather than with those pretentious twits in Sao Paulo. He despised that arrogance in Germany. But those ugly Renaissance paintings with those chubby pink chicks, frolicking naked by the lake...thinking they were cute? Puh-leeze.

Oh...we would have to find some way to save Renoir...even though the Japanese had impressionism centuries before those 19th century dudes and the Dogon had abstract centuries before Picasso. But Renoir was cool. So we gotta separate him from the rest of barbarians. Besides, the impressionists weren't European culture...Europe treated them like s**t.

Guns, Germs and Steel and a morally bankrupt Church are not evidence of a cultural superiority, kiddo.

It's just evidence that s**t happens.

So you're not gonna answer the question, are you? I kind of expected that, as it is a reductio ad absurdum. Unlike the illustrious AUGUSTUS, you are at least switched-on enough to understand the import and significance of the question. Which is why you never dared enter the arena about such foundational matters in the past. Mate, you don't have a foundation. And I think you sort of know it, or at least begin to sense it whenever I bring it up. Unfortunately, His Royal Highness AUGUSTUS is too lost in his grandiloquence to notice that he has his feet firmly planted in mid-air. I doubt anybody can bring him to realise this.

O Great Engineer, as regards your worldview, you are a man made of water who is climbing out of the water with a ladder made of water! Or to put it another way: You are, philosophically speaking, a man born deaf, dumb and blind on a bottomless, shoreless ocean. And yet you dismiss the charge of relativism, as if it has no application to you! Ha! Keep climbing that watery ladder, mate! You are making no sense whatsoever. Full of sound and fury -- signifying nothing!

Philosophically speaking, you are a moron. (And unlike HRH AUGUSTUS, you know you're no match.)

Okay, I'll be charitable with HRH AUGUSTUS and give him an opportunity to climb down from the lofty heights of his own self-regard to reason with me.

Here's the paragraph to contend with:

Religion is an inescapable concept. Everybody has a framework of basic assumptions about the nature of reality which he must presuppose in order to be able to get any traction in any area of thought and action. For example, for a scientist to be able to undertake the scientific endeavour, he must presuppose a universe that is ordered and works according to predictable, universal laws. He cannot arrive at this conclusion using the scientific method, because he must first assume its validity to employ the scientific method in the first place. He must reason in a circle. The scientist is no different from anyone else in having a faith commitment regarding the nature of reality.

For the benefit of HRH AUGUSTUS, I'll cut and paste old diologues I had on this site's forum with a formidable intellectual (self-taught, from the favelas -- and a pardo, for the benefit of Ric) by the name of Jose. This will save me the time of having to repeat myself. Jose's remarks will be in italics. I've picket out pertinent bits and pieces:

I don’t need to open all the monkeys in the world to know monkeys have hearts. I small number would be enough and I would know the rest.

Why not? If you can only trust your senses ... why on earth assume the validity of something you can't verify? After all, if evolution is the result of chance, random occurrences, then how can you presuppose the order necessary to make such a generalisation like, "all monkeys have hearts"?

Because I trust my senses, I can make generalizations from particulars. That’s called inductive reasoning. You don’t need to open all monkeys in the world to know that. A sample is more than enough to make a generalization, and if there is an exception later on, it is not a monkey.

But what reason do you have for assuming that you can make generalisations from particulars? After all, you have to be assuming something in order to do that, don't you? You have to have faith that the universe is ordered and uniform and therefore works according to predictable laws. You can't scientifically determine that the universe is ordered and unified. You have to assume this -- have faith in this -- in the first place in order to be able to make generalisations from particulars.

Those generalisations have to presuppose just the world the Bible speaks of. They do not presuppose the world Darwin speaks of -- a world that has no order or direction and is the result of random, chance occurrences. One simply would be unable to make any generalisations from particulars while relying on such a worldview, as there would be no reason to assume that particulars can offer any information from which to generalise.

People such as you, Jose, borrow Christian presuppositions with which to slap Christians in the face!

And who told you evolution is the result of chance, random occurrences? Mutation is random, the rest isn’t. The random aspect of evolution may account for let’s say, no more than 3% of the whole theory. The rest is cause and effect.

Okay, so from the alleged primordial soup to the complexity of today wasn't random? What, are you suggesting teleology here, mate?

And the order is obvious, it is right before your eyes. Without order, there would be nothing. Order is a property of the universe, but chaos is always trying to bring it down. You can say that entropy is the devil aspect of nature and order is its God principle.

I don't understand this. I know order is obvious, and I know it is right before our eyes. But I don't understand when you say that order is a property of the universe and that chaos is "trying to bring it down". First of all, isn't this chaos you speak of part of the same universe in which order has been so fortunate to find itself? If chaos is outside this universe, then how can this be the case? And how can this chaos be outside the universe and yet be sufficiently inside it as to undermine the blameless actions of Order?

You say that "entropy is the devil aspect of nature and order is its God principle". But this implies that there is some ultimate purpose to all that we see, all of existence. It is as if our hero Order is on a quest to reach a certain end, and the ever nefarious Chaos is for some unfortunate reason bent on making things difficult for Order.
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Indeed. And this is possible because of the chance, random occurrences we call evolution by natural selection, I gather?

I can see you know nothing about evolution. Go to talkorigins and do some reading. Don’t I study your religion to talk about it? Do the same about evolution. Evolution is a fact and a theory. Do you know what theory means in scientific parlance?

I've read Darwin's Origin of Species (whose subtitle is, The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life). I gather he is an authority on the subject.
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Evolution is a fact? What do you mean by fact? Do you mean something that can be demonstrated using the empirical method? If so, how on earth can the theory of evolution by natural selection be a fact?

And furthermore, there is no evidence the universe was MADE.

The evidence speaks for itself. You speak for the evidence. It's just that you suppress the truth in unrighteousness and worship the creature (your fallible and sinful reason, making it your idol) rather than the Creator.

Well, maybe not all humans have brains, would you care to open your head, please?

But you did get what I was getting at, right? The empirical method can only go so far. Most of it depends on faith -- faith in a universe sustained by God's providence and not one governed by random, chance occurrences.

If man had to wait to know everything before they made any statement, there would be no conversation at all.

Exactly. Since man's knowledge is finite, he must rely on faith, or rather revelation. Whether or not that general revelation is suppressed in unrighteousness depends on other factors.

And that’s worse than evolution. At least evolution has sensible explanations: the environment forces an animal, which has the ability to chane through mutations, to change.

I thought you believed in science. Doesn't evolution kill science? After all, doesn't science require for its existence an ordered, predictable universe, so that it would be safe for science to generalise from particulars? But if evolution is the result of random, chance occurrences, then such a reality makes it impossible for science to exist.
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I for one know the biblical account to be the true one because of the impossibility of the contrary. All other systems of thought reduce to self-refutation and irrationality. That's how I know the Bible to be speaking the absolute truth.

Your first statement is laughable. You know it is true because it is impossible for it not to be true. You said nothing at all. Circular argument all over again. A rose is a rose because a rose is a rose.

Everybody reasons in a circle, and you're certainly not an exception. The point is, which circular reasoning works? Which circular reasoning doesn't reduce itself to self-refutation and irrationality? Those who have eyes to see recognise the biblical account to be the only true account and all contrary accounts to be manifestations of the sinful rebellion of man.
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How could the concept of organisation be intelligible given such presuppositions? For example, how could you distinguish "organised" from "disorganised" if there is no interpretation imputed to this "matter"?

Isn’t your god self-organized merely by chance or shall we say a property inherent in him?

There is no such thing as chance.

So why couldn’t matter have a natural tendency to create order and then disorder and back again?

There would be no way of distinguishing order from disorder in such a universe. All would be meaninglessness itself.

And how did God happen?

"Happen" implies time, that is, a succession of events. God is infinite. Time does not apply to infinity but fintitude. So the question does not apply.

You see, no matter how you look at it, chance is God, God is chance.

Chance happens. And because it happens, it is subject to time. And because time exists, it is created (if time is infinite, then it is not time, since there would be no beginning and no end). And because it is created, it is the work of an infinite being. And because God is infinite, chance cannot exist.

You think it is ridiculous for the universe to exist for no reason at all, but it is not ridiculous for a god to exist for no reason at all and then he goes on to create a universe for no reason at all either.

A universe is not self-conscious. It is not teleological. If the universe is how you say it is, that is, unintelligent, then what does that say about your thoughts?

I fail to see any difference between the universe being self-organized by its own nature and a god being self-organized by his own nature.

Is the universe self-conscious? Is the universe alive? Does it think? Your language implies that this is the case, as the idea of "organising" assumes intelligence.

Since I see no need to explain an absurd by proposing another, I don’t believe in God.

What do you mean by absurd? You don't believe in God? Does that mean you believe in the universe? Is this the universe that is self-concious and therefore intelligent or is it the universe that is meaningless and therefore reduces everything you say to meaninglessness?

No. Actually I wouldn't call inductive reasoning faith. If I have seen enough monkeys with brains, my so-called “faith” is based on facts and not on dreams and visions.

How do you come to the conclusion that inductive reasoning is a reliable method for arriving at the truth? Do we reach this conclusion by means of inductive reason, that is, by generalising from particulars? But then that begs the question, doesn't it? How do we know to trust inductive reasoning? Is it by employing inductive reasoning? But then that is of course to beg the question yet again! It is to reason in a circle -- a vicious circle.

Clearly one has to have faith in inductive reasoning in order to employ inductive reasoning. One can't be convinced of the efficacy of inductive reasoning by means of inductive reasoning, because to do so would be to employ the fallacy of circular reasoning! Clearly those who employ inductive reasoning do so out of faith. Blind faith!

No need to rely on revelation, all I need is logic and senses.

What reason do you have for trusting in the efficacy of logic and senses? After all, to use logic, we have to have faith in logic. We have to have faith that the universe is ordered and unified and so is an envirnonment in which the principle of induction can operate.

But of course we can't have confidence in logic by means of our senses, because logic is an abstract concept which cannot be subjected to the empirical method of tangible experimentation. One simply has to presuppose a certain type of reality in order to employ logic. That is to say, one has to presuppose the reality as presented in the Christian scriptures to use logic and not be self-contradicting.

-----

Does sensorial experimentation pass its own test?

Yes, it is the only reality we know first-hand.

You didn't understand what I was saying there. Does sensorial experimentation pass it's own test? That is, does one arrive at the conclusion that sensorial experimentation is the only reliable source of information about reality by using sensorial experimentation? How does one reach this conclusion -- by using sensorial experimentation?

See the problem we have? We're reasoning in a cicle, swirling viciously in a whirlpool of question-begging.


If a prophesy is not specific, it is no prophecy. Go to a seer, Taroh reader, astrologer, etc. they can all make pretty good generalizations, just like the bible.

But if the Bible were not true, then you wouldn't even be using language, let alone be reasoning. Your thoughts would merely be the random bumping of atoms and chemical reactions in your head and intelligibility would be non-existent. In short, non-belief of the Bible is self-refuting, as the reason used to make such a claim is dependent on the worldview presented in the Bible.

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That was your choice, but what you believe in is nothing but opinion.

A choice determined before the beginning of time.

Just an opinion based on maudlin sentimentalism, it makes you feel happy to think like that, you think you are special and you feel soooooooooooooooo great.

An opinion based on the impossibility of the contrary is unassailable. An opinion based on irrationality, on the other hand, is self-refuting.

With all due respect, after apologizing for the yesterday's emotianal outburst (as I permit anger to take hold after "taking objectional issues up to a certain points). At any rate, I must start this with my statement that you may as well enter my name in your "list" of "lost
and damned" souls if you so which. As there is absolutely nothing that you or anybody may possibly say, allege, or otherwise state which would ever made consider any such issue of so called "spiritual", religious" nature, which I shall always consider mythology!

Unless information emanates from "empirical" evidence, from a scientiest, coming from legitimate SECULAR and thereby valid sources, which would make no reference to Jupiter, Zeus, Odim, GOD, Allah, or any such equally mythtological creator of things, which for me, forgive me - is beyond abusurdity. Consequently, I would never respect NON SECULAR, scientific sources, let alone "listen to them...

I belive in chaos, in parallel universes, in each of which things went along differently. No order and no design! Since the big bang has been randomly occuring. In my CONVINCED - FINAL POSITION - the accidental generation of the MULTIVERSE (the combination of parallel universes - is something I would never even question.

Our views are extreme opposite... What I do not understand and science cannot (yet) explain, I am perfectly satisfied with the simple answer: "currently scientific knowledge is not in a position to address this issue" as it has been the case throughout millenia - unlike with others in the past have done (attributing the unknown to a divine being - THAT is what I call an easy way out...) The answers to such questions have been gradually unveieved one by one ever - starting in the 16th century when Giordano Brune DARED defing a maliggn, evil church (afraid of science) - burned him alive... for questioning issues along YOUR Line of thought...
Continuing with other daring scientist since the 17th century, when Leonardo DaVinci, after a trial by the Vatican (the religious bosses of the time) OBLIGED him to publicly renonce his EMPIRCAL evidence that the Earth was not in the center of the universe - He was obliged to do that to escape death penalty. Many others have suffered in history under the horific hands of Evil religious characters having the audacity to claim their monstrous deeds were committed by the will of god... Such acts are still being committed today by Islam! You (religious individuals) are all the same, in your intolerance and restricted view of an abusurd alegory.

Yet, the world has mercifuly had many valiant individuals who, after facing religious persecution, in light of their scientific discoveries were able to ovecame the malicious primitive clerics, and spread knowledge. I'm convinced if Darwin had lived 200 years earlier, he would have been executed, after all, that's what you - religious people- do to enlighted beings who unveil knowledge which further exposes the absurdity of your MYTH which you so value and worship... As such, if I lived in the past, those like you will be sentencing me death, and I WOULD HAVE DIED WITH MY CONVICTIONS, aware that I'm one of the few enlightened few who will NEVER get to my knees to workhip abusurd divinities...

This is my final position. Again, if not provoked, I shall return to my sincere, difficult effort to remain silent on the topic, tolerating with respect to the freedom of others to worship and even making referecences to their gods - in my presence, without provoking sheer vomit and outbursts of outrage! I know I must tolerate the religious views of others making the utmost effort of avoid further offenisve words, albeit for me, THERE IS NOTHING MORE OFFENSIVE - on a personal level - THAN RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

Take care! I wish you well.

"Real culture"? ALL cultures are real, kiddo!

Is promoting vulgarities, obscenities and sex in Funk the same as Beethoven?

Guns, Germs and Steel and a morally bankrupt Church are not evidence of a cultural superiority, kiddo.

Two things:

- In comparison with the rest it's good. See Islam and their fanaticism, see China and the complete disregard for human life, see the Aztecs ripping the hearts of their enemies off their chest while they were alive! It is not perfect, but that was what enabled the advent of democracy and freedom. The Christian values you bash are the one thing that separate us from slavery.

- Let's consider hypothetically that your rant is fair. What do you offer?

Your relativism can't build anything! Instead you defend the destruction of values and bestiality. What for? What have the Africans and Arabs done to build something better!?

Your relativism can't build anything. All you can do is to whine, and work to destroy what exists without being able to build anything else.

You're so predictable.

I told myself that it would be no more than two weeks before you resorted to your voluminous cut and paste. I was pushing you to do that, you know.

Yeahhhh!

You've already shut down another thread on this site with this EXACT SAME cut-and-paste. EXACT SAME ONE! (tee-hee)

Remember, the Covenant discussion. The Africans who worship trees therefore they wouldn't economically develop. Dominate the earth versus stewards. Your holding the Germanic and Japanese as models (oh... because the 'pagan' Japanese kinda, sorta, almost keep the Christian 'Covenant') Your confusing cultural relativity with moral relativity. And then the voluminous quasi-spamming of the forum with long stretches of scripture. It took an hour just to scroll through them.

Been there, done that. Why not just point folks to those ENTIRE threads. Hmmm? Protect the environment: stop wearing out the cut-and-paste button.

You're getting senile, kid! Rest yourself, wipe the slobber from your lips.

And as I told you much earlier, you are still a falling tree in the forest, searching for ears to validate yourself. Until then, you engage in your personal INTELLECTUAL MASTURBATION!

And you still haven't 'cum' yet. (ohhhh, sorry...'low blow')

Listen...are you...happy? Seriously, are you happy?

Did you reach 30 yet? Close? Look, go out and do something stupid today. Jump in the waters off Sydney with your clothes on. Get on a rollercoaster and scream. Eat a four scoop banana split with chocolate and strawberries and whipped cream. Grip a woman's hands and skip through the waves along the beach.

Fly a kite! That's what I do with my godson. Works wonders. (except he gets mad because I won't give him the string)

Try it. "Free yuhself up, bredrin."

get a grip a brazilian

i would compare the bateria and passistas of mangeira with any art form on the face of the planet , and, they would stand up very well

that is a ridiculas comparason of baile funk to beethoven...baile funk is more a popular idiom , compare it to irish jigs or polkas or hungarian folk songs etc

you need to seperate the violence and drunkeness and sex that could cause aids ( because i, in no way ,condemn safe sex among consenting indivuduals )with the cultural aspects. its only a small amount of people who go to these dances who kill each other or do the wrong thing. and, it has more to do with adolecant testerone.far more white brazilians kill each other after drinking too much alcohol and driving...i like baile funk better than a drunk car accident that kill someone...

are these people worse than the minds of the christians who thought it was ok to burn people at the stake ? including redheads because they thought the devil was in them? ill take baile funk any day...

and, im tired of your put downs and bad referances to afro diasporic cluture , fine if you dont like it, but who in the gods name in hell gives you the authority to say what is the correct or higher culture ?

ive given many incredible examples of afro brazilian art and how it moves me , and, how i find great value and inspiration in it , and you cant give any valid reason why european culture is some kind of higher plane...all you do is say your put down opinions, that i totaly disagree with ( we are still in agreement about farc), and, cant give any valid reasons why its on some kind of higher plane...

do you think classical music is greater than jazz?

do you think its greater than north indian classical music?

when you make your putdown of culture statements,you just sound very narrow minded and un cultured to the real world

are these people worse than the minds of the christians who thought it was ok to burn people at the stake ?

A few christians did it and it was only a few thousands in the span of centuries. In Brazil we have 50k murders a year. The Aztecs were beligerent and had ritual human sacrifices that killed thousands every year (but they are indians, so they must be saint nature lovers). The communists, who are materialistic just like you, killed close to 100 million people.

This double standard in regards to the church is simply amazing.

that is a ridiculas comparason of baile funk to beethoven...baile funk is more a popular idiom , compare it to irish jigs or polkas or hungarian folk songs etc

It would be true if the Brazilians considered it something popular. The current propaganda is that it IS Brazil, a source of pride and a necessary step to greateness because all "great" nations (yes, Brazilian leftist inferiority complex) are "proud" of their culture. Well, they are certainly proud of Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin, etc.

Funk, samba and other rhythms are compared to classical music all the time, including on this site, and if I recall it correctly, you too compared it to classical music saying it was just as "high". If it wasn't you, then it was someone else.

As I said, this so called culture promote the wrong values and that has no future.

fine if you dont like it, but who in the gods name in hell gives you the authority to say what is the correct or higher culture ?

Being immersed in this pool of s**t and being obliged to listen to such boastful fools claiming to be higher than they actually are gives the motive to do it.

I don't care what others do of their lives. If they wish to spend their entire time listening to funk, dressing like a clown and talking like an illiterate, that's ok. It becomes my problem when this is used in propaganda and as some sort of symbol of my country.

when you make your putdown of culture statements,you just sound very narrow minded and un cultured to the real world

If Funk is "culture" then I want to be "uncultured".

and you cant give any valid reason why european culture is some kind of higher plane

I have given it many times. Christian values, life in accordance to nature, i.e., science, reason, logic.

yes, i do say that samba , funk ,jazz etc are on an equal plane as classical music...

baile funk is a small part of that larger picture , and, where i dont consider it my primeir music of choice,there are things that are of interest in it for me...

you see, you are the one who wants to judge one thing as superior to something else

i can fully attest to you, that in terms of power and depth of rhythm and groove, all afro diasporic rhtyms are more syncopated and sophisticated than classical music. ravel's bolero is one of the few examples in western classical music of any kind of flowing groove..

you see, the christioan values, in their uptight mores, in europe ,suffocated anything that dealed with pelvic thrusts and physical expresions from the torso...while other aspects , like harmony and ballet , and, techniques to execute these things , techniques that can be aplied to any style of musie to improve its execution ,were enhanced, the rhythmic concept got sacrificed .

yes, you have intelectual linear excursions, like in stravinski and shoenburg , but, compared to any average funk, forro,pagodge, it looks stiff, and, seriouly pales (no pun intended) in comparison with mangueira bateria, john coltrane /elvin jones, miles davis/ tony williams, gua gua co,frevo , bloco afro etc , herbie hanc**k on headhunters funk

i enjoy beautiful harmony very much , and, respects its european origins very much. but i especialy like it when mixed with the exiting rhythms of brazil, the states and cuba

i enjoy seeing roots movements like baile funk, besides the sensuality, where the popular street beat is going. it could lead to something greater, it may not, its still interesting if you like groove

look, man, great if you dont like it, you are only expressing your opinion , nothing more, you are not the definitive statement on what is culture and what isnt, and, seriously, i am very plugged into opinions and flows in music and i cant find any way in the word on the street, you mention ,to associate baile funk with the marxists in any way...are you serious ? most of the pt militants are white, politics is a white man's game, mostly

you cant say with any certainly how those people vote

have you ever seen ballet where they have tights that pretty much imply nudity ? for sure the idea is to look at the human body...

sometimes, in modern ballet , they use actual nudity...

have you seen the duo ? where the woman seems to entwine herself around the man, simulating some of the most incredible sexual positions you could imagine ?

This is a hard argument... I'm just an observer
Yet, as Much as I oppose A BRAZILIAN in nearly everything, including his religious views, I must confess my inability to see any beauty outside Western Culture - as I much as I respect the others and attempted to make myself like them...

Yet, I despise Christianity (as any other worship - in case you guys missed that detail), but as a Western Humanist who adores Leonardo DaVinci, Vivaldi, Rafael, Mozart, Jane Austen, Lord Byron, Beethoven,
Brahms.... If the piece of Music, statue, paining, poetry and Novel was not created, composed or otherwise painted in Europe between 1500 and 1900, I unable to see any beauty... Recongnizing my short-comings on this issue, I apologize to asp and Adrian... I cannot help it

Cheers

Meanwhile, back to Obama.

Does his venue and dorky column theme for tonight imply worship? Shall he be worshipped? Since it would be non-metaphysical (we assume), would it then be OK?

History is full of haters of Christianity. For various reasons.

To His Royal Highness. I was skeptical as to whether I could help you. It seems my skepticism was well justified. Your thinking is lost in a fog of its own grandiloquence. If God is merciful, the fog will clear.

You've already shut down another thread on this site with this EXACT SAME cut-and-paste. EXACT SAME ONE! (tee-hee)

For a shut-down thread, it seems to be continuing just fine to me.

Remember, the Covenant discussion. The Africans who worship trees therefore they wouldn't economically develop. Dominate the earth versus stewards. Your holding the Germanic and Japanese as models (oh... because the 'pagan' Japanese kinda, sorta, almost keep the Christian 'Covenant') Your confusing cultural relativity with moral relativity. And then the voluminous quasi-spamming of the forum with long stretches of scripture. It took an hour just to scroll through them.

Worldview determines how we live. People who have a cyclical view of history will differently to those who have a linear view of history.

I only hold the Germans and Japanese as examples of the type of culture and behaviour that would be needed to reach certain ends. Whether we would want to be quite as stolid and Apollonian as the Germans and Japanese is another thing.

Yes, the Japanese are pagan, but not in a way that is consistent with their stated paganism. They talk the talk of paganism but walk the walk of Christianity. Long term, this is unsustainable, and is demonstrated in their failure to be fruitful and multiply, a basic Christian injunction.

Confusing cultural relativity with moral relativity? The two are mutually exclusive? Culture comes from the Roman word for religion, cultus. For example, our cultural practice of monogamy. This is to do with Christianity, because Christianity deems polygamy to be immoral. Morality informs culture. To think otherwise is ignorant.

Long stretches of scripture? Where?

Look, rather than trying to make smoke and obfuscate, why can't you admit that you just can't answer the question. Unlike AUGUSTUS you at least comprehend what I'm getting at. Is the realisation that you're fulfilling nothing in Bahia unpalatable?

Just go back to Philly and stick to helping "your" people, understood as only those Americans of African descent. Keep your racial divisionism where it belongs. Hey, have you heard? They're gonna elect some bloke called Barack Obama as propitiation for their sins! Go back home and busy yourself with this Obama circus.

Did you reach 30 yet? Close? Look, go out and do something stupid today. Jump in the waters off Sydney with your clothes on. Get on a rollercoaster and scream. Eat a four scoop banana split with chocolate and strawberries and whipped cream. Grip a woman's hands and skip through the waves along the beach.

Yes, I'm 30. But what should I do what you say? Is this your idea of a philosophy of life? Oh, brother. You're nearly as bad as the resident aristocrat. Seriously, is that what you offer as the philosophical framework informing and guiding your actions? I suppose it does. Your frolic in Bahia must be you living out this philosophy. A middle-aged guy just livin' it all to jump into the waters of Salvador; get on the rollercoaster of imported racial divisionism and race politics in Brazi; grip the hapless Bahians' hands and skip through this incoherent meaningless nonsense of a philosophy of life.

You're hopeless. Go home. Barack for Obama.

To asp -- the question for me is, What is the right or appropriate balance between Dionysianism and Apollonianism? It's all a question of getting the balance right. When you over-emphasise Dionysianism, you get a whole lot of fun and spontaneity, but then a lack of development. If you over-emphasise Apollonianism, you get a whole lot of order, organisation and discipline, but at the expense of any joie de vivre.

balance ? ok, sure , i dont enjoy the idioms i love ( not saying i love baile funk, i just like it and accept it ) by looking to get drunk, looking for women and wanting to shoot someone. and, i beleive there are lots of people who are like me with these idioms...

young people gathering to meet each other will be young people going to meet each other everywhere...there are other forces in play , like testerone...i dont think brazil leads the world in rapes and sexual promiscuity at these dances

actualy some of these hot dances are a sexual release for the young people without having sex...its very healthy and the moves are very healthy...many scientific studies show that repetitive beating of drums or dancing is very good for the health...releasing pelvic tension is healthy...its a secret the subsahara africans discovered and it is one of their gifts to the world, .

its like the beach, the beach is one of the most sensual places anywhere, but, people who hook up for sex is a whole differant personal story. its seperate from just going to the beach and enjoying it....

actualy a brazilian and brazuca, i am just now getting it....!!!

nice one, i dig your aproach...your aproach to get me to expound on the genius of afro brazilian culture, to show how profound it is and deep it is, to counter some of the put downs of brazil you see on this forum...what a great idea to get someone to open up and show how absolutly wonderful this culture is...kudos, what great softball pitches...

and, you do know that various evangelical churches in the north east use afro brazilian rhythms , sometimes to sing gospal over ?

every one has their own taste. i dont expect you to like what i like. i probaly like some of what you like and some other stuff you dont...

why cant people have their own taste with out being judged ? i apreciete your ackowledgement of this

yeah, you know in ballet they say "...yes, observe the fine line of that dancer..." what they really are saying is " check out the fine lady over there, baby's got back ..."

so go ahead on and go to some of that sensual nude ballet and watch the pas de deux, and , all those incredible positions...

When I tell you that the last time I was in Philadelphia, I almost got mugged by an African-American....on Race Street!

What were the chances?

@brazuca - Thirty! Wow! We're maturing.

Sorry, you don't know much about the philosophy that supports a precious six-year-old splashing in the waves and his wide eyes at a kite bobbing in the sky.

Such a wonderful Dionysian wretch.

That's too deep for you. You'll understand when you finally become responsible for something besides hot air.

Even the Pennsylvania Amish let their kids come out and play.

What a wretched man you are. Don't have kids...please!

the question for me is, What is the right or appropriate balance between Dionysianism and Apollonianism? It's all a question of getting the balance right. When you over-emphasise Dionysianism, you get a whole lot of fun and spontaneity, but then a lack of development. If you over-emphasise Apollonianism, you get a whole lot of order, organisation and discipline, but at the expense of any joie de vivre.

That's...umm...err...deep(?).

"All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy."

Go ahead and use that one. It saves all of the typing.

But when you figure out your dilemma and decide to let your hair down..come on out with me and the kid. Most Sundays afternoon. We feed the fish first and then the kites. You're free to join us. Ya gotta laugh, though. No screw face.

They talk the talk of paganism but walk the walk of Christianity.

Well....all right then! Ummm....okay! ( ) I'll leave this one alone. I smell a long diatribe on Covenant theory.

What is this "walk of Christianity"? Let's compare the Haitians and the Japanese. Is it "honor they father and thy mother"? Is it "raise up a child in the way that they should go"? Is it "consider the ways of the ants, o thou sluggard"? Is it "love they neighbor as you love thyself"? That's the second greatest commandment, right. But wait, the Haitians do this, too. Hmmmm....what could it be? I wonder...(CAPTITALISM = CHRISTIAN WALK). Wait! Why did that pop up in my head? You mean keeping the Covenant is based upon making Sony radios and not your love for your parents, your children and your neighbors.

Okay...gotta go...gotta talk to A